Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BMStroh 03-14-05, 04:53 PM	I'm running a party through the Eberron Adventure series. I picked up after SotLW, ran WotVB, and we're playing a homebrew adventure now, before picking up with GotEC. Here's the point where I invite my players to go away. :) In the course of these adventures, the party hasn't exactly made friends with the Emerald Claw folks. Between a combination of low-level NPCs, good rolls on the parts of the PCs, and my laptop's inability to roll double-digit attack rolls for my bad guys, the Emerald Claw thugs haven't made a very good showing. I shuffled them around a bit, swapping in some rogue levels, and a few other tweaks for the sake of variety, but didn't have much better luck. I'm getting close to the point of throwing Demise at them (they're ~5th level, for the most part) and I'm looking for other ideas that make sense in an Eberron context. I can't just say *poof* the Emerald Claw guys are 5th level fighters, because that seems very much against the tenet that the PCs are largely the PCs. So, I'm looking for inspiration and better ideas. Help? :)
Power of the Horde 03-14-05, 05:04 PM	They aren't really supposed to make a good showing IMO. Kinda like the stormtroopers in Star Wars. That said... One, buff them. A single low-level leader casting group support spells can improve their performance by quite a bit. Two, equipment. E.g., horses, bows, and better armor. (Horses can also have the magebred template.) Three, supplement their numbers with some stronger fighters. Undead, for example. A few ghouls, ghasts, or wights can add a lot of punch to a squad of 2nd-level warriors. A few of them might also have other templates. They could have some animals trained for war. E.g., dogs, cheetahs, or dinosaurs. Magebred animals are especially handy. Or undead animals. Lastly, improving their tactics can always help.
caern.hallatheen 03-14-05, 05:44 PM	I agree, this is a major problem in Eberron campaigns and Birthright before them. Basically any low-level world. Just wait till you get to 10th or 15th level. Sure, there are always monsters, and some archvillains that fit the bill, but overall if you prefer mundane challenges, the beat-a-few-henchmen game can become either boring or ridiculous, as you either keep their levels realistically down or you buff them up respectively. That said, there are things you can do. First of all, as mentioned, they're not supposed to be too much resistance. The henchmen are henchmen. Superior numbers should be used to the extent that they provide an issue. If your party of four is assaulted by 20-30 first level warriors, plus a couple of low-level support mages, they can be a definite threat. Throw in a villain of their own caliber and things rapidly get dangerous (if you protect him correctly, that is). I'd suggest reading the Sharn:COT part about the Redcloaks for suggestions about tactics on how a relatively low level group can, methodically used, become much more dangerous than it ought to be at first sight. Another thing of course was alluded to earlier. Players know their characters, and they use every trick in the book. The DM, unless he plans quite a bit or is really good with all the min-maxing himself, is unlikely to use his characters to as large an extent. If for some reason you're itching to give your players a challenge, plan ahead. Choose feats that may not be too realistic, or should I say that you wouldn't expect every opponent to have, but are good against your party. One wacky suggestion along these lines, if your group is heavy on martial power, is to introduce a couple of sub-villains. You know, the kind of evil sidekick that sits by the archvillain until he waves for him to dispatch the heroes while he's attending more important business? : ) Make them twins, and perhaps distinctive in some other fashion, and have them be specialists of the exotic spiked chain weapon. You can even make them 1st level fighters, but 2nd or 3rd would probably work best. Give them Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. The weapon has reach 10, but can be used against adjacent opponents, and can also be used to make trip attacks. These combine to make it a real pain to fight against. Trust me. The twins, plus 5 first level warriors and a first level sorcerer to cast enlarge on one of the twins, maybe a second level priest of vol to cure them once or twice, and you have a potentially very dangerous encounter on your hands. Falling down not only costs you time, it also means people usually get attacks of opportunity on your way up. Finally, there's the noncombat solution. You know, you can create adventures where it's actually not that important to beat the enemy, but to do something else. Maybe it's mostly detective work. Maybe it's more like WotVB, where they're chasing someone or for something, but a villain from the Emerald Claw is always a step ahead, throwing expendable, worthless henchmen their way just to delay and frustrate them. Of course, this should probably all lead up to a climatic final battle at the end of the adventure. You could arrange something like the above paragraph to challenge them, the villain could be of a similar caliber to the heroes or, to push the you-don't-always-win theme, the enemy could conjure up some deadly monster, making for a final climatic encounter that'll keep the PCs thrilled and occupied enough not to realize they lost their target until it's too late, leaving them to pick up the cold trail in another adventure.
BMStroh 03-14-05, 08:24 PM	You've given me some great ideas to work with. I've got a couple of ways I can integrate them into the current plotline to provide a lot more challenge for my PCs. I've had a few investigative plot ideas as well, but we haven't come to a point where I can work them in. I'm more a fan of investigative/role-playing intensive plots than continuous combat, actually. Yesterday, since only two players made it to the session, the House Orien Dragonmark Heir spent some time laying the groundwork for a small enclave in Wyvernskull, figuring that a caravan route to Korranberg would give Wyvernskull a nice boost - a market for the goods coming into the harbor. The Emerald Claw angle is just something I think it's important to follow up on - mainly to be sure the characters realize that their actions are being felt in the world. Thanks again! (and, of course, other ideas are welcome...)
Demon in Shades of Gray 03-14-05, 10:29 PM	something I've wondered about (ignore me if it sounds too tacky)... Why not have monsters that arrive at inopportune times for the bad-guys, too? Those pesky random critters always seem to get in the players' way or trounce over them whilst they sleep... Why not have an ogre or three barge in on a fight between your PCs and the Emerald Claw goons? Have them take some swings at both sides. If the Ogres get to be too much for the PCs to handle, have the brutes concentrate on the other poor schmucks while your fellas hamstring'em. Just something that's been rocking around in my brain for some added encounter mayhem...
Charles Phipps 03-14-05, 10:37 PM	Have the Emerald Claw pull a Bond villain. Have them poison their food and put them to sleep before dumping them in a death trap. Basically, don't try and beat them with brute force. have them do something cinematic. Have the Emerald Claw kill a PC's family member and leave a note saying that this was their punishment. They are a SECRET society for a reason. Have them act like terrorists. In fact, have the Emerald Claw frame them for murder.
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-14-05, 11:37 PM	Have the Emerald Claw pull a Bond villain. Have them poison their food and put them to sleep before dumping them in a death trap. Basically, don't try and beat them with brute force. have them do something cinematic. Have the Emerald Claw kill a PC's family member and leave a note saying that this was their punishment. The last one never works. The players aren't connected to their in-game families, and it's cliched. (Indeed, it's one reason why so many PCs are orphans.) Killing their family makes the PCs stronger (if they even care), as now they're out for blood. They are a SECRET society for a reason. Have them act like terrorists. In fact, have the Emerald Claw frame them for murder. That one is wonderful. Simply point the PCs at someone they shouldn't like... dominate the victim and make them say provocative things so the PCs will kill them off, then when the trial starts, it turns out the victim was a real nice guy...
Charles Phipps 03-14-05, 11:43 PM	The last one never works. The players aren't connected to their in-game families, and it's cliched. (Indeed, it's one reason why so many PCs are orphans.) Killing their family makes the PCs stronger (if they even care), as now they're out for blood. Yeah, so, the object isn't to break your PCs but to tell a good story. If you want to break your PCs then I suggest you make a character and quit DMing. You can build up their family connections before you drop the ax of course but the goal is to establish the Emerald Claw as badasses. The PCs can thwart them every time, but they'll look competent if they mow through the NPCs. Having the PCs go into a town and find every single townsperson is scared spitless because the Emerald Claw has killed every single person whose spoken against them and Karrnath has just written off the village and many others like it as too unwieldly to take back is something from Kenshin but works. Straight combat is always the worst way to establish a villain as dangerous frankly, a better idea is to give Emerald Claw villains names and alot of mooks and spread their reputation through sheer fear or cutaways That one is wonderful. Simply point the PCs at someone they shouldn't like... dominate the victim and make them say provocative things so the PCs will kill them off, then when the trial starts, it turns out the victim was a real nice guy... That sounds a bit extreme. I was thinking more along the lines of finding they're wanted in all their favorite hangouts as a bunch of illusioned Emerald Claw Knights (or even clones that have been altered with magic by a high level artificer who wants to make an example of them with a mirror of opposition) spread their infamy.
Tealgorthian 03-15-05, 01:07 AM	This involves a 15 foot wide hallway, and 9-10 bad guys, you can pick the level, but three of them MUST have 1 level or Fighter/or towersheild prof. Set up three guys with tower sheilds in the front, using standard spears.. The three guys behind them use long spears (with power attack if you are feeling brutal), and the three guys behind them use some kind of cross bow with Point Blank and Precise Shot. The idea is to stab them brutally before they even get to the sheilders. If you are worried about a mage type blowing them apart with a fire ball, have a cleric/druid/wizard/Something That Casts put a protection from fire on them. I did this as part of a final encouter for some PCs once, outside of Eberron. The PCs were 4th level, and the 9 guys were 1st level warriors (with the appropriate feats) with a 5th level Cleric backing them up. It got kinda ugly. But it is just a standard phalanx-form. If your PCs are good at tactics, you might be in trouble.
Red Winter 03-15-05, 01:32 AM	Emerald Claw? Undead & Espionage Undead -> Take the killed family member bit. Raise the family member as undead. A few plots can develop from this. Guard approaches PC. "Do you have any family members, hero?" Hero: (typical orphan PC) "No." Guard: "A spell divined that blood from your family was responsible for the murder of Duke Perras." Perhaps one PC died in the past, and the player rerolled a different PC. Raise the dead PC as undead, give it a few levels of ghoul, zombie or vampire. Espionage -> Pull some dirty tricks. Emerald Claw doesn't always broadcast their affiliation. Scenario: A captain of the guard is in truth a member of the emerald claw. He even lets PC's know between setting nearly every encounter against them. Framing them for murder. How do the PCs react when they're dealing with 2-3 emerald claw agents and a dozen good-aligned guards who think the PCs are criminals? What if there's an Emerald Claw agent in the upper echelons of society? The morbidly obese merchant noble who masquerades as a Patron, with a thing for the female PC, becomes a dangerous enemy as he sends them into traps, or gives them a cursed item as a 'gift' for their aid. Information is power. What if an Emerald Claw thief or spellcaster could get their hands on a PC spellbook? Steal it, run off with it, and then later provide info on what spells the PC prefers. (same with emerald claw members keeping an eye on PCs over a period of time). Go into an encounter where the villains counter the first few spells cast by the PC's, and things get interesting/frustrating.
talion09 03-15-05, 11:53 AM	Emerald Claw? Undead & Espionage Undead -> Take the killed family member bit. Raise the family member as undead. A few plots can develop from this. Guard approaches PC. "Do you have any family members, hero?" Hero: (typical orphan PC) "No." Guard: "A spell divined that blood from your family was responsible for the murder of Duke Perras." Perhaps one PC died in the past, and the player rerolled a different PC. Raise the dead PC as undead, give it a few levels of ghoul, zombie or vampire. Espionage -> Pull some dirty tricks. Emerald Claw doesn't always broadcast their affiliation. Scenario: A captain of the guard is in truth a member of the emerald claw. He even lets PC's know between setting nearly every encounter against them. Framing them for murder. How do the PCs react when they're dealing with 2-3 emerald claw agents and a dozen good-aligned guards who think the PCs are criminals? What if there's an Emerald Claw agent in the upper echelons of society? The morbidly obese merchant noble who masquerades as a Patron, with a thing for the female PC, becomes a dangerous enemy as he sends them into traps, or gives them a cursed item as a 'gift' for their aid. Information is power. What if an Emerald Claw thief or spellcaster could get their hands on a PC spellbook? Steal it, run off with it, and then later provide info on what spells the PC prefers. (same with emerald claw members keeping an eye on PCs over a period of time). Go into an encounter where the villains counter the first few spells cast by the PC's, and things get interesting/frustrating. I especially like the option where dead or discarded PC's come back to haunt the party as villains. I had a DM do that to us when playing through the original ravenloft adventure (translated to 3.5)... everytime a PC died, there was a good chance that he would show up as a bad guy with the vampire spawn template (or as a spectre, etc) if we didn't recover or burn the body. It's funny for the rest of the group to watch the replacement character get killed by the undead original.
Magagumo 03-15-05, 02:38 PM	Aye, in a high-lvl campaign I'm running with Nerullites (undead to boot), the party lost a cohort and a player changed characters, leaving me w/ a Corpse (BoVD) Psychic Warrior War Mind & a Half-Vampire Arcane Trickster. It's a lovely thing, it is.