Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nashad d'Thuranni 12-05-05, 03:52 PM	I was just wondering... The name of the Emerald Claw is, of course, refering to the green dragon, Vol's herritage. But, what is their public explanation of the name? It's a secret that they serve Vol, so what cover do they use?
DoveArrow 12-05-05, 06:10 PM	The way I understand it is that the Emerald Claw was once an elite force that served Karrnath during the Last War. Since the signing of the Treaty of Thronehold, King Kaius disbanded the unit in an effort to distance himself, and his country from the Church of the Blood of Vol. Now, the Emerald Claw serves as a kind of vigilante/guerilla outfit that is controlled either by the church, or by Vol herself. So, while they may be a secret organization in the sense that they operate in secret, I don't think there's any secret about their affiliation with the Church of the Blood of Vol. Granted, that's me going by what I believe is a memory, but I think that's the general story behind the Emerald Claw. In any case, it sounds good, doesn't it?
Hannibal 12-05-05, 06:55 PM	Hey, Vol IS a half-dragon. Why couldn't the claw be her own?
DoveArrow 12-05-05, 07:25 PM	Hey, Vol IS a half-dragon. Why couldn't the claw be her own? Because if it were her own claw, then she'd have no hands! Geez! :P
nfras 12-05-05, 07:41 PM	So, while they may be a secret organization in the sense that they operate in secret, I don't think there's any secret about their affiliation with the Church of the Blood of Vol. But it's also a secret that Erandis d'Vol is behind the Blood of Vol. BoV is seen as a religion that reveres undeath and is focused on bloodlines and blood in general. It's not seen as an undead cult following an ancient half-dragon elven lich because very few people know that it is. So how do you explain the Emerald Claw reference? I'm not sure. Perhaps the Emerald Claw has some significance in Karrnathi history. Maybe an ancient Karrnathi Warlord styled himself the Emerald Claw.
sh0 12-05-05, 09:33 PM	Maybe this is a simple question and if its mentioned in some official text, please point me there. If the true nature of the BoV is a secret, who or what do the inhabitants of the Five Nations think Vol is?
Hola 12-05-05, 10:49 PM	The old dragonmarked house that got wiped out whose traditions involving the tracking of lineages that, thats what the BoV reverers, well some of them. There are secret sects that sacrafice innocents for power and there are sects that just honour those tat have passed on and love there family. The latter being the mostly puplic opinion. At least thats my eberron.
Errant 12-06-05, 03:48 AM	Well, lets see. We have the Mark of Death dragonmark of the House of Vol's, the Blood of Vol cult (which I seem to remember has been mentioned as existing before the House was wiped out), and the Emerald Claw all interwined somehow. Just my speculation mind you, but attempts to interpret the spiritual significance of the House of Vol's Mark of Death could easily have given rise to the Blood of Vol cult, which would explain the similarity in names. (I'm not sure what powers the Mark of Death might have included that would support the idea that death could be overcome, but who said logic had to be the basis for a cult?) Now, since the House of Vol was wiped out for breeding half-dragons, its easy to imagine them having a reputation for consorting with dragons. If it was a reputation for consorting with green dragons, move forward in time a few generations, to a time when the Blood of Vol spread to Khorvaire, a time when ancient military orders were growing amongst the Karrns, and its not a big leap to imagine one of those orders, inspired by the beliefs of the cult, taking the Emerald Claw as a symbolic link to the roots of their beliefs. Fast forward a few more generations to the current age of Eberron, when the House of Vol is an ancient memory forgotten by almost everyone but a few scholars, and most people will have forgotten the origin of the Emerald Claw symbol but it persists as part of the outlawed military order that adopted it. An order who's leadership may once have granted shelter to the last survivor of the House believed to have spawned their ancient beliefs. A leadership that may have secretly continued their loyalty to that survivor through the passing centuries, completely unknown to the order's rank and file. I don't think any of that contradicts canon.
inspired 12-06-05, 05:12 AM	i dunno. if i was ignorant joe peasant (commoner1) and those crazy adventurers in the tavern were talking about the dastardly deeds of the blood of vol, the first thing i'd ask myself, if not them (if i didn't already know, which is likely with my int 8) would be "what's a vol"?
Just another user 12-06-05, 05:32 AM	So how do you explain the Emerald Claw reference? I'm not sure. Perhaps the Emerald Claw has some significance in Karrnathi history. Maybe an ancient Karrnathi Warlord styled himself the Emerald Claw. Maybe you don't explain it, at least not to the general public. After all, how many americans knows where the name Al-qaeda(sp) means/come from? For the more scholarly types there is always the "tied to the House of Vol that was destroyed for its consorting with (supposedly green) dragons" explanation.
sh0 12-06-05, 09:16 AM	For the more scholarly types there is always the "tied to the House of Vol that was destroyed for its consorting with (supposedly green) dragons" explanation. But how well known is that, even in the scholarly circles? Is it known that they were consorting with the dragons or is it only known that the dragons destroyed the house?
DoveArrow 12-06-05, 12:29 PM	But it's also a secret that Erandis d'Vol is behind the Blood of Vol. BoV is seen as a religion that reveres undeath and is focused on bloodlines and blood in general. It's not seen as an undead cult following an ancient half-dragon elven lich because very few people know that it is. So how do you explain the Emerald Claw reference? I'm not sure. Perhaps the Emerald Claw has some significance in Karrnathi history. Maybe an ancient Karrnathi Warlord styled himself the Emerald Claw. You are partially correct. It is a secret that Erandis d'Vol is still alive. However, it is no secret that the church worships Erandis d'Vol. Erandis d'Vol, it is believed, is a mortal who was able to transcend death and gain divine status. The church worships her as an example to all who would attempt to overcome death, and their temples often contain idols devoted to the lich queen.
Korhal_IV 12-06-05, 03:30 PM	Maybe you don't explain it, at least not to the general public. After all, how many americans knows where the name Al-qaeda(sp) means/come from? For the more scholarly types there is always the "tied to the House of Vol that was destroyed for its consorting with (supposedly green) dragons" explanation. It means "The Base", or "The Foundation". Fellow Americans who don't know are unnder-edjercated. :P But it's a good point. How many of us know the meaning behind every religious sect's name? Prior to 9/11, how many Americans even knew the religious difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims? In a pre-modern society, where the tribalistic/nationalistic mindset was even more cemented into society, the desire to know would've been a lot less. You ask Average Joe what "Blood of Vol" means, and he's likely to answer "Some Karrnathi necrophiliacs" derisively. Ask him who Vol is, and he'll shrug.
Isran_Imrador 12-06-05, 06:04 PM	The Blood of Vol was (in my opinion) the teaching of the noble elven house Vol. What they learned from their skills as necromancers & with their new found dragonmark. Leading them to belive that Undead was the ultimate victory over time & the gods. The origin of the "house Vol" could most likely be trached back to Xen`Drik... As we know the reseach & teachings of Vol was the direct opposite to the Undying Court and the rest of Aerenal... Jump forward to the last war... King Kaius I is losing the war on all fronts...Famine rages the Karrnathii contryside. Erandis sees at chance to gain more power and influence over Khorvaire..She sends and envoy to the King. One of the high priests of Vol meets the king and offers to train a new type of soldiers...and send military aid...Against minor considerations from the king...(Read Kaius Revealed p 178 ECS) The Emerald Claw is offically born, as Erandis sends here best trained followers to aid the Karrns. How did Kaius I explain the new order to the people? In secret we have trained a new elite force in our army. The Order of the Emerald Claw. A new symbol of Karrns military superior power over the other four nations....Why would the king pick that name like that for a new karrn army order? Well why does the coat of arm of Norway have lions on it....? I am sure the undying court or the chamber could be able to find a link from Emerald Claw to Blood of Vol by reading up on their history...but why would they... Did all this make any sense? Isran
Just another user 12-06-05, 06:15 PM	It means "The Base", or "The Foundation". Fellow Americans who don't know are unnder-edjercated. :P But it's a good point. How many of us know the meaning behind every religious sect's name? Prior to 9/11, how many Americans even knew the religious difference between Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims? In a pre-modern society, where the tribalistic/nationalistic mindset was even more cemented into society, the desire to know would've been a lot less. You ask Average Joe what "Blood of Vol" means, and he's likely to answer "Some Karrnathi necrophiliacs" derisively. Ask him who Vol is, and he'll shrug. Beside we have internet and library and newspapers, if I want to know about al qaeda or... well, almost anything is only a click away. It is not like any khorvanian peasant have access to a library or similiar source, heck it would be lucky to have access to a bard once in a while.
nfras 12-06-05, 08:27 PM	You are partially correct. It is a secret that Erandis d'Vol is still alive. However, it is no secret that the church worships Erandis d'Vol. Erandis d'Vol, it is believed, is a mortal who was able to transcend death and gain divine status. The church worships her as an example to all who would attempt to overcome death, and their temples often contain idols devoted to the lich queen. Actually, the Church doesn't worship Erandis d'Vol. The Blood of Vol predates Erandis by millenia. Can't quite remember where I read it (seem to think it was AKB) but the Blood of Vol is tens of millenia old. The vast majority of members of the Blood of Vol see it as a religion which views death itself as evil and undeath as beneficial. I wouldn't be too sure that many are aware Erandis d'Vol was made into a lich, or even aware that there was an Erandis d'Vol. The vast majority of members of the Emerald Claw think they are Karrnathi freedom fighters, battling to assert Karrnath as the rightful power in the world. If it was common knowledge that they were, in fact, shock troops for a halfdragon lich with world domination on the agenda I think that recruitment might be a bit tough. I would put the name down to a suitably noirish convention of blindingly obvious things that people never linked before until the protagonists come along (So, the Knights of Living Iron are servants of the Lord of Blades and not a charity group as they would like us to think!)
Errant 12-07-05, 05:13 AM	King Kaius I is losing the war on all fronts...Famine rages the Karrnathii contryside. Erandis sees at chance to gain more power and influence over Khorvaire..She sends and envoy to the King. One of the high priests of Vol meets the king and offers to train a new type of soldiers...and send military aid...Against minor considerations from the king... Ooh, I like that. Gonna have to knick it and incorporate it in my take on the EC. Yoink! Thanks. :)
DoveArrow 12-07-05, 10:36 AM	Maybe this is a simple question and if its mentioned in some official text, please point me there. If the true nature of the BoV is a secret, who or what do the inhabitants of the Five Nations think Vol is? pg. 180 of the Eberron Campaign Setting "Nowthe Emerald claw operates as a vast underground network terrorist group, proclaiming itself to be working to return Karrnath to greatness. In truth, the order is just another elaborate plot and powerful tool in the service of Vol, the lich lord of the Blood of Vol cult."
DoveArrow 12-07-05, 10:44 PM	Actually, the Church doesn't worship Erandis d'Vol. The Blood of Vol predates Erandis by millenia. Can't quite remember where I read it (seem to think it was AKB) but the Blood of Vol is tens of millenia old. I think you may have read that in the Eberron Campaign Setting on page 70. "The Blood flows into the distant past, through the earliest days of human civilization on Khorvaire, to the elf kingdom of Aerenal, and even to Xen'drik, the continent of secrets." While I think you're right, the philosophies of the religion predate Erandis, I think it has become a new religion separate from its origins, in the same way that Christianity has become a new religion separate from Judaism. The vast majority of members of the Blood of Vol see it as a religion which views death itself as evil and undeath as beneficial. I wouldn't be too sure that many are aware Erandis d'Vol was made into a lich, or even aware that there was an Erandis d'Vol. The vast majority of members of the Emerald Claw think they are Karrnathi freedom fighters, battling to assert Karrnath as the rightful power in the world. If it was common knowledge that they were, in fact, shock troops for a halfdragon lich with world domination on the agenda I think that recruitment might be a bit tough. I would put the name down to a suitably noirish convention of blindingly obvious things that people never linked before until the protagonists come along (So, the Knights of Living Iron are servants of the Lord of Blades and not a charity group as they would like us to think!) Honestly, the more I look into it, the more I realize that the answer isn't exactly clear cut. The Eberron Campaign Setting describes the Blood of Vol on page 228 as "an ancient religion devoted to the figurative and literal meaning of blood-the mysteries of heredity, death and the undead." It also says that "the true followers (as opposed to the common folk who unknowingly help hide the deceptions) revere the ancient lich Vol." To me, that sounds like you're right. Vol is relatively unknown, and even members of the church don't necessarily know who she is. However, in Five Nations, it says on page 114 that the Crimson Monastery holds "chapels and altars devoted to Vol herself" and that "the crowds of ordinary worshipers... move from shrine to shrine." To me, that sounds like everyone in the church at least knows who Vol is and that they all revere her in some way. Personally, I see Vol as a kind of divine messenger- sort've like Moses in Judaism, Jesus in Christianity, or Guru Nanak Dev in Sikhism- whose example serves as the foundation of the church's philosophy. I play it that way because otherwise, it seems rather ludicrous that the members of the church (and note I say members, not the masses of nonbelievers that are outside of the church) don't at least wonder why their religion is called the Blood of Vol, or why its champions use the symbol of the Emerald Claw. Of course, that's my personal preference, and as I've said, I think the subject is muddied enough that you could play it either way. :)
Errant 12-07-05, 11:35 PM	...in Five Nations, it says on page 114 that the Crimson Monastery holds "chapels and altars devoted to Vol herself" and that "the crowds of ordinary worshipers... move from shrine to shrine." To me, that sounds like everyone in the church at least knows who Vol is and that they all revere her in some way... Or at least they think they know who Vol is. The image of Vol they (common church members) worship may have little in common with the actual Vol. I imagine that after a few centuries of involvement with church & emerald claw leaders it wouldn't have been too hard for Vol to insinuate herself into a position where she's (falsely) believed to be a divine being to the point where now many know her name but few realise what she's really like.
a_psh 12-07-05, 11:52 PM	I see the official line and standard belief being that the "Vol" in "Blood of Vol" stands for the ancient elven house of Aerenal, who are held up as the paragons of necromantic power, the first to realize how to truly transcend death, but not revered directly. "It was the ancient house of Vol that first mastered the mysteries of spirit and flesh transcending mortality, the paths of true life through undeath," a worshipper might say, "and we honor them with our name. But my religion and my bloodline are my own. We have no ties to the long-dead House Vol, only a common goal." I don't think most Vol worshippers know of the direct Emerald Claw connection per se.
nfras 12-08-05, 12:03 AM	Honestly, the more I look into it, the more I realize that the answer isn't exactly clear cut. The Eberron Campaign Setting describes the Blood of Vol on page 228 as "an ancient religion devoted to the figurative and literal meaning of blood-the mysteries of heredity, death and the undead." It also says that "the true followers (as opposed to the common folk who unknowingly help hide the deceptions) revere the ancient lich Vol." To me, that sounds like you're right. Vol is relatively unknown, and even members of the church don't necessarily know who she is. However, in Five Nations, it says on page 114 that the Crimson Monastery holds "chapels and altars devoted to Vol herself" and that "the crowds of ordinary worshipers... move from shrine to shrine." To me, that sounds like everyone in the church at least knows who Vol is and that they all revere her in some way. Personally, I see Vol as a kind of divine messenger- sort've like Moses in Judaism, Jesus in Christianity, or Guru Nanak Dev in Sikhism- whose example serves as the foundation of the church's philosophy. I play it that way because otherwise, it seems rather ludicrous that the members of the church (and note I say members, not the masses of nonbelievers that are outside of the church) don't at least wonder why their religion is called the Blood of Vol, or why its champions use the symbol of the Emerald Claw. Of course, that's my personal preference, and as I've said, I think the subject is muddied enough that you could play it either way I don't have 5 Nations so I can't comment on what it says. However, from what people on the boards have been saying about it, there are lots of contradictions between 5N and the ECS. In my Eberron (the last defence of the defenceless :) ) people are aware that the Blood of Vol is an ancient religion, more ancient perhaps that the Sovereign Twelve. They may be aware that Vol was an ancient elven line that goes back to Xendrik. Those that know about the elven connection assume that the Blood of Vol and the Death-Worshipping elves are linked. Priests may know that the BoV and the Undying Court were at odds and that a "great schism" occurred and the two were at war. Only the very senior within the church are aware of the existence of Erandis d'Vol, and fewer still know that she is still around. The full story is only known to a few. In Karrnath, the BoV is viewed as a positive force as they showed the way forward with undead soldiers and many people equate their teachings with "racial purity" (I see Karrnath as a bit like Weimar Germany) and a link to the greatness of the Karrnath of the past. The Emerald Claw are a bit like pre-1933 Nazis. They are terrorists preaching to the masses and finding a not-unwilling audience. Karrns thought that they could win the war and are not exactly enamoured with the concessions that Kaius made. While there is no link between the EC and the BoV, it wouldn't surprise anyone in Karrnath, but nobody would think that there was a conspiracy. The BoV is not nationalistic, but preaches racial purity and has a strong foothold in Karrnath when they are mostly shunned elsewhere, the EC are ultranationalists and terrorists, not spiritual at all. BoV plays to the Karrns superiority complex but doesn't advocate war. The EC is trying to provoke war which some Karrns find very frightening. I can see the BoV occassionally denouncing acts by the EC to distance themselves from it. Most people have no idea what the Emerald Claw means, assuming that because it sounds martial and noble, it must refer to some great order of Karrnathi Knights. In my Eberron, Vol has done "the greatest trick" and "convinced the world she doesn't exist". The Undying Court suspect, but don't know for sure, The Silver Flame know that the Church of the Blood of Vol is evil at the top, but don't know the full extent of the truth. The dragons are fully aware of Erandis but have thus far done nothing. I haven't decided about the Daughters of Sora Kell yet (don't really use them in my game). Having said all of that, you are perfectly valid in saying that there is enough ambiguity in the wording to say Erandis d'Vol is viewed as a great prophet of the Blood of Vol.
nfras 12-08-05, 12:09 AM	"It was the ancient house of Vol that first mastered the mysteries of spirit and flesh transcending mortality, the paths of true life through undeath," a worshipper might say, "and we honor them with our name. But my religion and my bloodline are my own. We have no ties to the long-dead House Vol, only a common goal." I like that line. Have to use it in something. :)
DoveArrow 12-08-05, 12:40 AM	In my Eberron (the last defence of the defenceless :) )... And here I was thinking I was the one losing the debate. ;)
Euangelion 12-08-05, 10:06 AM	To build on points nfras made: I think one thing that could be said is regarding the public relationship between the Emerald Claw and the Blood of Vol religion is that members of the Emerald Claw who are religious almost always follow the Blood of Vol religion. In other words, if there's a cleric or adept among an EC strike force, he or she most likely will be from the BoV rather than a follower of the Dark Six. This doesn't mean that they realize the depth of the connection, but remember that the Emerald Claw was formed at the time that the BoV was at the height of its influence in Karrnath, and in the minds of the bulk of the Emerald Claw the Karrnath they are fighting to restore is a Karrnath that reveres the Blood of Vol religion, and necromancy is a very important part of EC operations, and the EC includes many intelligent undead (see S:CoT). There's probably quite a few mid-level or even high-level ranking members of the Emerald Claw who think they're working to take control of the BoV hierarchy! Heck, there's probably urban myths that come close to the truth between the EC and the BoV, but the complete story at this time remains hidden.
DoveArrow 12-08-05, 10:30 AM	Or at least they think they know who Vol is. The image of Vol they (common church members) worship may have little in common with the actual Vol. I imagine that after a few centuries of involvement with church & emerald claw leaders it wouldn't have been too hard for Vol to insinuate herself into a position where she's (falsely) believed to be a divine being to the point where now many know her name but few realise what she's really like. I think I should clarify. I think very few people in the church know that Erandis is still around (at least on the Material Plane) and I doubt very seriously that the statues in the Crimson Monastery look anything like her (did you know that Jesus of Nazareth was originally depicted in the earliest Christian churches as a blonde, shaven youth?). I also think that while they may associate Vol with green dragons, they probably know very little (if anything) of her heritage and are certainly unaware that she is a half dragon. Nevertheless, I think the vast majority of church members know of Vol and believe that she is a prophet who has used undeath as a method of passing into the realm of divinity.
Dragom 12-08-05, 05:38 PM	i dunno. if i was ignorant joe peasant (commoner1) and those crazy adventurers in the tavern were talking about the dastardly deeds of the blood of vol, the first thing i'd ask myself, if not them (if i didn't already know, which is likely with my int 8) would be "what's a vol"? Honestly this is very simply answered for a low intelligence Commoner. Blood of Vol = Religion Religion = Gods Vol = God Thus the daft commoner can jump to the obvious conclusion and avoid looking like an idiot for 5 more minutes. Thus everyone "knows" Vol is a god. This stance is clearly backed up by the fact this mysterious Vol has clerics, a religion and followers. A very good scribe and follower of history may note that Vol was a lich, who may still exist or may have passed on years ago. The other interesting points about Vol however would not be knowable. Will scribes ponder the connection between the Blood of Vol and the lost house of Vol? "But... What house of Vol are we talking about here?" The house of Vol is a lost house. Records have been burned and anyone who couldn't stop talking about it has been beaten till they could stop. Could someone walk into a deathless citadel and talk to someone who had been part of the purge? Maybe, you could. Could you convince a person that old and set in his ways to talk to you about the purge? Probably not. Would you waste the near divine persons time with something he tells you is unimportant? Certainly not. Will he tell you it's unimportant? Yes, he hated and is ashamed of killing his fellow elves and he's glad it never has to be talked about again because the entireity of the house of Vol is thankfully destroyed.
Jagermeister 12-08-05, 06:24 PM	You all may be interested in reading the information on the BoV on page 95 of the Sharn book as well. Might provide some insight to your various viewpoints on this issue. And remember, most of the followers and priests of the BoV don't even know the deeper truths of the organization, its history, or info in regards to Erandis.
lukelightning 12-09-05, 10:03 AM	Simple: The Emerald represents the emerald green of Karnnath's pride! The Claw shows they are grabbing the glory that rightfully belongs to the nation!