Epic Characters in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Epic Characters in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue
12-26-04, 02:42 PM Alright, just picked up a copy of the Eberron campaign setting today. I haven't had time to read the whole thing yet so I don't know if its dealt with at some point or another but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Do Epic characters have a place in Eberron? Since its everything 3.5 I'm assuming they do, but I thought I'd check.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz
12-26-04, 02:47 PM The book says that their are not really any epic NPCs in the game, but I say that's bull. I mean with the war that just went through Khorvaire, I would say their would be some powerful people on the continent. I mean if you think about it, fighting in major wars would deffinetly increase exp in combat and even if they didn't fight in the battles (generals and commanders) I would say they gained exp through leadership of their troops, becoming even more powerful. I would even say their might be a few powerful warforged fighters out their that fought in the war as well, but that's my oppinion and not an official oppinion of WotC.
The White Sorcerer
12-26-04, 02:52 PM Do Epic characters have a place in Eberron?

Sure. When a rakshasa rajah is released from it's prison, when Dastryx the really big dragon decides that attacking Sharn is part of the prophecy, when the daelkyr invade once more, who can stop them?

Epic-level PCs.
The White Sorcerer
12-26-04, 02:54 PM I mean if you think about it, fighting in major wars would deffinetly increase exp in combat

NPCs don't have XP. Only PCs do.
Bluebrush
12-26-04, 02:59 PM Well a lot of NPCs have built-in limits.

Your average joe commoner isn't going to be level 20 if he spent 40 years as a soldier because he simply doesn't have the limitless potential a PC or villain has.

Plus war has had the unfortunate "Being killed" effect on a lot of people.

For epic level people, there's going to be very few around. Odds are the PCs would be four or five of them, and their enemies would make up the other group of them.
Of course, there's epic level enemies like the daelkyr and the lords of dust.
And just as the PCs reach level 21, there can just as easily be the greatest wizards who ever walked Khorvaire reaching out to level 23.

The challenges can be there for epic-level PCs, but the number of epic level *individual* enemies is proportional to the number of epic PCs.
Save-vs-DM
12-26-04, 03:04 PM Okay, here goes this response.

First, on the last war: Most warriors were just that warriors. Furthermore, though the wars were large, they were sporadic and you didn't really face anyone man to man.

Also, Keith has gone on record as stating that NPCs earn XP differently than PCs. One of the things that make PCs special is that they can earn XP LIKE PCs.

If you'll read through the book, the biggest, gnarliest NPC is level 17 (not counting Jaela, who is only a lvl 18 cleric in the boundaries of the Silver Flame).

In short, Eberron is geared towards low level. The NPCs are low level, the PrCs are even obtainable at lower levels.

That being said, you could indeed run an epic game. Just keep in mind that you're going to need to use organizations. In Eberron epic characters are going to be near gods. These are going to be individuals who will be going up against the Dreaming Dark and the Dealkyr. You're going to have to be careful to make sure the PCs know that Level does not denote power.

Does it have a place: sure, if you want it to? Does it fit with the theme? Not in my opinion, but that's just it, that's my opinion. I love low levels.

But, epic levels offer some challenges: A newe Daelkyr threat from Xoriat: the PCs are the only hope.
The dreaming dark has begun to invade: the PCs are the only hope.

Cheers,
SvD
Gurv
12-26-04, 03:50 PM They have their place, but it is a small one. There are not a lot of epic NPCs, and those that do exist are going to be ones giving the PCs trouble. Eberron is geared towards lower level games.

But the high-level and epic-level challanges are waiting in the eaves. Trapped deep in Khyber are threats that once ruled over the world and/or threatened to destroy it.

The ruins and dungeons in Xen'drik belong to the people who defeated them the first time. Some of those ruins must have belonged to someone capable of casting "Dispel Outer Plane". The same applies to ancient Gatekeeper ruins.

There is an island of dragons. Who apparently cooperate with each other. And taught the giants of Xen'drik how the cast "Dispel Outer Plane" spell...then, once they did, smacked the civilization right out of them. They occassionally clash with the elves and their ten thousand year old leaders.

So although most of the epic possibilities are being kept "in the box" so that low-level games can take place, they are nice and ready for those DMs who want to let them loose.

Disclaimer: No, I do not think Dal Quor was sent away by a "Dispel Outer Plane" spell. I'm sure it was significantly more complex than that, but the level of power used remains the same.
polt
12-26-04, 03:53 PM First, no there isn't any Epic NPCs in eberron.

But hell, there are daelkyrs and the Rajahs has like Divine Rank 20-30 or something.
Edymnion
12-26-04, 04:16 PM Actually, thats not true. There are epic level NPCs in the book (and I think Keith said the rajahs were more like DR 5, not 20-30, which even the Faerun gods don't get that high of level).
The Daughters of Sora Kell (I think thats the right one), one of them has an LA that puts her total level at 21.

Plus, all of the Khyber stuff, the Demon Wastes, the dragons, and the MM3 puts Epic level (CR 25) Eldritch Giants in Eberron (survivors of the old Giant nation?). Its just that the really high level guys are keeping their heads down. After all, it doesn't matter what level you are when an entire continent moves against you. Especially not when you might risk "disturbing the prophecy" and getting a couple hundred Great Wyrms breathing down your neck. Literally.

Just because there aren't any Epic Level people running around and sitting in taverns doesn't mean there isn't Epic Level play available. Its just that the PCs are essentially going to be the only epic level guys around. And really, if you play the setting like it was intended to be played (start at lvl 1), and you make it to Epic levels, then you have rightfully earned your place as this setting's Elminster and Drizzt.
polt
12-26-04, 04:35 PM oh yeah, DR 5. Thats still mighty powerful.
scaryfroman
12-26-04, 05:10 PM Also remember Vol and Kaius. Both are somewhere near level 23 or so when you include LA
Bluebrush
12-26-04, 05:40 PM Plus, all of the Khyber stuff, the Demon Wastes, the dragons, and the MM3 puts Epic level (CR 25) Eldritch Giants in Eberron (survivors of the old Giant nation?).

I don't think KB wrote the suggestions where to put things from the MM3, so that just remains an option rather than a matter of canon, just like a DM making up a 25th level ranger scouring the mournland for clues is an option.
Save-vs-DM
12-26-04, 06:29 PM I stand corrected. Don't have my copy on me here, so working from memory.

Cheers,
SVD
Edymnion
12-26-04, 06:44 PM I don't think KB wrote the suggestions where to put things from the MM3, so that just remains an option rather than a matter of canon, just like a DM making up a 25th level ranger scouring the mournland for clues is an option.Yes, but they fit into the setting perfectly. The giant nation, the masters of magic and power, that grew so big and bad as to be a threat to the dragons themselves. I can certainly see reasons for these guys to still be hiding out in Xen'Drik.
PoeticJustice
12-27-04, 02:47 AM probably guarding a mountain of gold-pieces the size of hub-caps.
At least that's whay my PCs think...
They'll learn though, oh yes, they'll learn! :plotting:
Golbez57
12-27-04, 10:20 AM Edymnion hit the mark, I think: there are certainly epic-level threats kicking around Eberron, but very few known epic-level NPCs. Check out the daelkyr entry again or for the first time, particularly the HD line; what's presented in the ECS is the weakest among the race. There are certainly nastier otherworldly beings trapped in Khyber who thirst for freedom....

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the lord of the Eldeen Reaches as being among the most powerful NPCs. Yes, he might be "just" an awakened tree, but he's also a 20th level druid. (Is its name Olain...? I loaned my ECS to our group's newest player so he could get acquainted with the setting over the holidays, and am already missing it!)
Streamweaver
12-27-04, 10:54 AM All that's been said is pretty accurate, not so many NPCs but challenges on that level exist.

It doesn't really matter though, as the DM you can just declair more Epic NPCs if you like since it's your world when you run it. Maybe the powerful went into hiding after the war, appaulded at their own losses. You could make heavy use of the Dal Qouri if you like for Epic games. We know the Inspired are basically the peon of that dimension, what if the real powerhouses came through and set up shop in Eberron? Lots of potential for Epic play exists.

I alway feel obliged though to mention this in "Epic" or other threads asking for high powered play. Unless you have a real passion for epic play, give Eberron a try unmodified without the epic characters. The high level NPC play can be found in a number of other settings already out there, so why try to force Eberron down that path? If it's a manner of what you're used to, consider it a fun challenge to see things in a different way when running a DnD game.

Of course you should run the kind of game you find fun so do as you will, but ti always pains me to see a unique setting come out and watch people try to transform it back into the stock kind of worlds it was specifically trying not to be.
CzarGarrett
12-27-04, 11:08 AM I think the whole idea is that there aren't any Epic characters because there hasn't been enough time to adventure yet.

In 3 years, there might be a novel series based off some sort of module in which someone can become Epic.

It's a new place to adventure- there's still room to work.
aelryinth
12-27-04, 05:38 PM There will be Epic level NPC's when your Epic level Pc's retire and you start new PC's, and they have to pick up where the old PC's left off when the old timers keep getting knocked off, one by one, now that they are merely non-XP earning NPC wimps.

==Aelryinth
hiryuu
12-27-04, 05:44 PM There will be Epic level NPC's when your Epic level Pc's retire and you start new PC's, and they have to pick up where the old PC's left off when the old timers keep getting knocked off, one by one, now that they are merely non-XP earning NPC wimps.

==Aelryinth

I don't know about you, but when my PCs are done, I wipe the slate and start over, or they go down as heroes in a blaze of glory. In this way, the world does not become cluttered, and remains fun and exciting.
Darrius Adler
12-27-04, 08:44 PM Always remember that a major theme in Eberron is the re-occuring villain. While thier may not be many Epic NPCs floating around, the party's nemesis should be advancing along with them. A final showdown in Epic levels between the party and this enemy that has haunted them since first level is bound to be an impressive thing to play out.
Edymnion
12-27-04, 09:17 PM I don't know about you, but when my PCs are done, I wipe the slate and start over, or they go down as heroes in a blaze of glory. In this way, the world does not become cluttered, and remains fun and exciting.Well, two things about that one.

1) You don't really have to wipe the slate and start over, there is a differance between running the campaign and running A campaign. You just start a new campaign, and what happened in the old one is irrelivant, it was a differant campaign. No need to wipe everything out or kill the old characters, just suspend them in the unplayed limbo. You might want to go back and use that campaign again for something later on. I mean, if you go to all the time to go from lvl 1 to Epic, the least the DM can do is give the characters a "happy ending".

2) Considering I'm one of his players, I don't think I like the sound of all this ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue 12-26-04, 02:42 PM	Alright, just picked up a copy of the Eberron campaign setting today. I haven't had time to read the whole thing yet so I don't know if its dealt with at some point or another but I thought I'd ask anyway. Do Epic characters have a place in Eberron? Since its everything 3.5 I'm assuming they do, but I thought I'd check.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 12-26-04, 02:47 PM	The book says that their are not really any epic NPCs in the game, but I say that's bull. I mean with the war that just went through Khorvaire, I would say their would be some powerful people on the continent. I mean if you think about it, fighting in major wars would deffinetly increase exp in combat and even if they didn't fight in the battles (generals and commanders) I would say they gained exp through leadership of their troops, becoming even more powerful. I would even say their might be a few powerful warforged fighters out their that fought in the war as well, but that's my oppinion and not an official oppinion of WotC.
The White Sorcerer 12-26-04, 02:52 PM	Do Epic characters have a place in Eberron? Sure. When a rakshasa rajah is released from it's prison, when Dastryx the really big dragon decides that attacking Sharn is part of the prophecy, when the daelkyr invade once more, who can stop them? Epic-level PCs.
The White Sorcerer 12-26-04, 02:54 PM	I mean if you think about it, fighting in major wars would deffinetly increase exp in combat NPCs don't have XP. Only PCs do.
Bluebrush 12-26-04, 02:59 PM	Well a lot of NPCs have built-in limits. Your average joe commoner isn't going to be level 20 if he spent 40 years as a soldier because he simply doesn't have the limitless potential a PC or villain has. Plus war has had the unfortunate "Being killed" effect on a lot of people. For epic level people, there's going to be very few around. Odds are the PCs would be four or five of them, and their enemies would make up the other group of them. Of course, there's epic level enemies like the daelkyr and the lords of dust. And just as the PCs reach level 21, there can just as easily be the greatest wizards who ever walked Khorvaire reaching out to level 23. The challenges can be there for epic-level PCs, but the number of epic level individual enemies is proportional to the number of epic PCs.
Save-vs-DM 12-26-04, 03:04 PM	Okay, here goes this response. First, on the last war: Most warriors were just that warriors. Furthermore, though the wars were large, they were sporadic and you didn't really face anyone man to man. Also, Keith has gone on record as stating that NPCs earn XP differently than PCs. One of the things that make PCs special is that they can earn XP LIKE PCs. If you'll read through the book, the biggest, gnarliest NPC is level 17 (not counting Jaela, who is only a lvl 18 cleric in the boundaries of the Silver Flame). In short, Eberron is geared towards low level. The NPCs are low level, the PrCs are even obtainable at lower levels. That being said, you could indeed run an epic game. Just keep in mind that you're going to need to use organizations. In Eberron epic characters are going to be near gods. These are going to be individuals who will be going up against the Dreaming Dark and the Dealkyr. You're going to have to be careful to make sure the PCs know that Level does not denote power. Does it have a place: sure, if you want it to? Does it fit with the theme? Not in my opinion, but that's just it, that's my opinion. I love low levels. But, epic levels offer some challenges: A newe Daelkyr threat from Xoriat: the PCs are the only hope. The dreaming dark has begun to invade: the PCs are the only hope. Cheers, SvD
Gurv 12-26-04, 03:50 PM	They have their place, but it is a small one. There are not a lot of epic NPCs, and those that do exist are going to be ones giving the PCs trouble. Eberron is geared towards lower level games. But the high-level and epic-level challanges are waiting in the eaves. Trapped deep in Khyber are threats that once ruled over the world and/or threatened to destroy it. The ruins and dungeons in Xen'drik belong to the people who defeated them the first time. Some of those ruins must have belonged to someone capable of casting "Dispel Outer Plane". The same applies to ancient Gatekeeper ruins. There is an island of dragons. Who apparently cooperate with each other. And taught the giants of Xen'drik how the cast "Dispel Outer Plane" spell...then, once they did, smacked the civilization right out of them. They occassionally clash with the elves and their ten thousand year old leaders. So although most of the epic possibilities are being kept "in the box" so that low-level games can take place, they are nice and ready for those DMs who want to let them loose. Disclaimer: No, I do not think Dal Quor was sent away by a "Dispel Outer Plane" spell. I'm sure it was significantly more complex than that, but the level of power used remains the same.
polt 12-26-04, 03:53 PM	First, no there isn't any Epic NPCs in eberron. But hell, there are daelkyrs and the Rajahs has like Divine Rank 20-30 or something.
Edymnion 12-26-04, 04:16 PM	Actually, thats not true. There are epic level NPCs in the book (and I think Keith said the rajahs were more like DR 5, not 20-30, which even the Faerun gods don't get that high of level). The Daughters of Sora Kell (I think thats the right one), one of them has an LA that puts her total level at 21. Plus, all of the Khyber stuff, the Demon Wastes, the dragons, and the MM3 puts Epic level (CR 25) Eldritch Giants in Eberron (survivors of the old Giant nation?). Its just that the really high level guys are keeping their heads down. After all, it doesn't matter what level you are when an entire continent moves against you. Especially not when you might risk "disturbing the prophecy" and getting a couple hundred Great Wyrms breathing down your neck. Literally. Just because there aren't any Epic Level people running around and sitting in taverns doesn't mean there isn't Epic Level play available. Its just that the PCs are essentially going to be the only epic level guys around. And really, if you play the setting like it was intended to be played (start at lvl 1), and you make it to Epic levels, then you have rightfully earned your place as this setting's Elminster and Drizzt.
polt 12-26-04, 04:35 PM	oh yeah, DR 5. Thats still mighty powerful.
scaryfroman 12-26-04, 05:10 PM	Also remember Vol and Kaius. Both are somewhere near level 23 or so when you include LA
Bluebrush 12-26-04, 05:40 PM	Plus, all of the Khyber stuff, the Demon Wastes, the dragons, and the MM3 puts Epic level (CR 25) Eldritch Giants in Eberron (survivors of the old Giant nation?). I don't think KB wrote the suggestions where to put things from the MM3, so that just remains an option rather than a matter of canon, just like a DM making up a 25th level ranger scouring the mournland for clues is an option.
Save-vs-DM 12-26-04, 06:29 PM	I stand corrected. Don't have my copy on me here, so working from memory. Cheers, SVD
Edymnion 12-26-04, 06:44 PM	I don't think KB wrote the suggestions where to put things from the MM3, so that just remains an option rather than a matter of canon, just like a DM making up a 25th level ranger scouring the mournland for clues is an option.Yes, but they fit into the setting perfectly. The giant nation, the masters of magic and power, that grew so big and bad as to be a threat to the dragons themselves. I can certainly see reasons for these guys to still be hiding out in Xen'Drik.
PoeticJustice 12-27-04, 02:47 AM	probably guarding a mountain of gold-pieces the size of hub-caps. At least that's whay my PCs think... They'll learn though, oh yes, they'll learn! :plotting:
Golbez57 12-27-04, 10:20 AM	Edymnion hit the mark, I think: there are certainly epic-level threats kicking around Eberron, but very few known epic-level NPCs. Check out the daelkyr entry again or for the first time, particularly the HD line; what's presented in the ECS is the weakest among the race. There are certainly nastier otherworldly beings trapped in Khyber who thirst for freedom.... I'm surprised nobody mentioned the lord of the Eldeen Reaches as being among the most powerful NPCs. Yes, he might be "just" an awakened tree, but he's also a 20th level druid. (Is its name Olain...? I loaned my ECS to our group's newest player so he could get acquainted with the setting over the holidays, and am already missing it!)
Streamweaver 12-27-04, 10:54 AM	All that's been said is pretty accurate, not so many NPCs but challenges on that level exist. It doesn't really matter though, as the DM you can just declair more Epic NPCs if you like since it's your world when you run it. Maybe the powerful went into hiding after the war, appaulded at their own losses. You could make heavy use of the Dal Qouri if you like for Epic games. We know the Inspired are basically the peon of that dimension, what if the real powerhouses came through and set up shop in Eberron? Lots of potential for Epic play exists. I alway feel obliged though to mention this in "Epic" or other threads asking for high powered play. Unless you have a real passion for epic play, give Eberron a try unmodified without the epic characters. The high level NPC play can be found in a number of other settings already out there, so why try to force Eberron down that path? If it's a manner of what you're used to, consider it a fun challenge to see things in a different way when running a DnD game. Of course you should run the kind of game you find fun so do as you will, but ti always pains me to see a unique setting come out and watch people try to transform it back into the stock kind of worlds it was specifically trying not to be.
CzarGarrett 12-27-04, 11:08 AM	I think the whole idea is that there aren't any Epic characters because there hasn't been enough time to adventure yet. In 3 years, there might be a novel series based off some sort of module in which someone can become Epic. It's a new place to adventure- there's still room to work.
aelryinth 12-27-04, 05:38 PM	There will be Epic level NPC's when your Epic level Pc's retire and you start new PC's, and they have to pick up where the old PC's left off when the old timers keep getting knocked off, one by one, now that they are merely non-XP earning NPC wimps. ==Aelryinth
hiryuu 12-27-04, 05:44 PM	There will be Epic level NPC's when your Epic level Pc's retire and you start new PC's, and they have to pick up where the old PC's left off when the old timers keep getting knocked off, one by one, now that they are merely non-XP earning NPC wimps. ==Aelryinth I don't know about you, but when my PCs are done, I wipe the slate and start over, or they go down as heroes in a blaze of glory. In this way, the world does not become cluttered, and remains fun and exciting.
Darrius Adler 12-27-04, 08:44 PM	Always remember that a major theme in Eberron is the re-occuring villain. While thier may not be many Epic NPCs floating around, the party's nemesis should be advancing along with them. A final showdown in Epic levels between the party and this enemy that has haunted them since first level is bound to be an impressive thing to play out.
Edymnion 12-27-04, 09:17 PM	I don't know about you, but when my PCs are done, I wipe the slate and start over, or they go down as heroes in a blaze of glory. In this way, the world does not become cluttered, and remains fun and exciting.Well, two things about that one. 1) You don't really have to wipe the slate and start over, there is a differance between running the campaign and running A campaign. You just start a new campaign, and what happened in the old one is irrelivant, it was a differant campaign. No need to wipe everything out or kill the old characters, just suspend them in the unplayed limbo. You might want to go back and use that campaign again for something later on. I mean, if you go to all the time to go from lvl 1 to Epic, the least the DM can do is give the characters a "happy ending". 2) Considering I'm one of his players, I don't think I like the sound of all this ;)