Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steelpunk 08-08-05, 08:18 PM	We all know by now that PC class levels are relatively rare in Eberron, and that those NPCs who achieve them tend to remain at fairly low levels in those classes. Sure, there are a select few "official" high-level NPCs running around, but they're rare, and most seem to be alienated and isolated from society at large. Given the lowered bar, what exactly qualifies as Epic in Eberron? When I look and see that a 9th level wizard is considred to be at the top echelon of the Esoteric Order of Aureon, it gives me pause. When a PC reaches into the teens, would they not also start to feel the same societal alienation of the other high-level NPCs? What motivation would there be to continue progressing if doing so only distances them further from the status quo? I find I'm starting to have trouble reconciling the levels of my party members with the makeup of the setting. Don't get me wrong - I like the structure and feel that rare PC classes lend to Eberron, and the reasoning behind it is sound given the setting's history, but it's starting to look like the only thing available to truly high level adventurers within the confines of official material is battling world-class threats every other week, since social interaction becomes moot when a PC can out-talk and/or fleece any king, queen or dragonmarked noble in the world... PC1: "What are we going to do this week, PC2?" PC2: "Same thing we do every week, PC1 - take out the Lords of Dust/Cults of the Dragon Below/Dreaming Dark, and if we have time, give some fashion tips to Merrix d'Cannith" I guess what I'm looking for are ways to challenge the PCs in ways that don't involve throwing them into armed conflict with every evil in the world, while maintaining the feel of the setting. Though they're comparitively low level, it's already started to feel like they've moved into epic realms within the context of Eberron dealings, which I don't really like. As an aside, I understand most of the higher-level NPCs died fighting in the Last War, but the war has been over for years - you'd think at least a few adventurers would have reached similar levels by now and become involved in the guilds/churches/politics or some such by now.
Charles Phipps 08-08-05, 08:32 PM	The best thing to realize about Eberron is essentially that the Pcs are supposed to be legendary heroes and by the time they reach level 13 or so they will be started to be treated like Galahad, Superman, and Mel Gibson all rolled into one. However, that doesn't actually change things all that much. Eberron is a low level campaign setting for Human Beings. Humanity, Elves, halflings, and so on are basically somewhat higher in terms of the "masses" than they were in 2nd edition when everyone was "Zero Level" but that doesn't really change much since PCs were always able to kick people's asses. It was the fact they were supposed to protect them. Beholders, Illithids, Demons, Devils, Slaadi, and all the High Level monsters out there exist (not to mention the 40th level or so Daelkyr). These things largely exist outside of humanity and if you use the world of Batman as a source, once the Pcs start manifesting their greater power...they'll stop ignoring humanity and starting making preperations to wreck it. Part of the problem you seem to be having though is dealing with the issue that there's other "adventurers" on Eberron when Keith has been largely indicating that he prefers to think the Pcs are pretty much alone as holders of the profession of 'hero.' No one's going to shoot you though if you insert your own Drizzts or raise Vol to 30th level with 9 Death Knight Nazgul and a horde of orcs at her command in Droam though.
Steelpunk 08-08-05, 08:46 PM	Part of the problem you seem to be having though is dealing with the issue that there's other "adventurers" on Eberron when Keith has been largely indicating that he prefers to think the Pcs are pretty much alone as holders of the profession of 'hero.' Nail on the head :) It doesn't make sense to me that only PCs hold the mantle of "hero", when Sharn alone has two districts specifically catering to adventurers (as well as other cities that might have similar districts) - entire districts for a tiny handful of PC hero adventurers just doesn't make sense - neither does the idea that adventurers in these districts remain low level due to constant attrition (which I've seen other people suggest)... odds are that at least a handful of them will live on to fight another day(s) in the course of their careers, thus gaining experience, prestige, and status. Not to mention that the setting clearly indicates that the world has many other people who undertake "high adventure" and explore Xen'drick, other continents and fight other evils. In my eyes there must be other heroes out there, since there are entire establishments geared for them. From what I understand, Eberron did indeed have other heroes, but these people died fighting in the war. Sure it would leave a gap, but not a permanent one.
Charles Phipps 08-08-05, 08:50 PM	Nail on the head :) It doesn't make sense to me that only PCs hold the mantle of "hero", when Sharn alone has two districts specifically catering to adventurers (as well as other cities that might have similar districts) - entire districts for a tiny handful of PC hero adventurers just doesn't make sense - neither does the idea that adventurers in these districts remain low level due to constant attrition (which I've seen other people suggest)... odds are that at least a handful of them will live on to fight another day(s) in the course of their careers, thus gaining experience, prestige, and status. Not to mention that the setting clearly indicates that the world has many other people who undertake "high adventure" and explore Xen'drick, other continents and fight other evils. In my eyes there must be other heroes out there, since there are entire establishments geared for them. The discrepency is decidedly there. I try and reconcile it in my games even though I know that I'm splitting hairs. Eberron has adventures in the forms of.... * Explorers * Members of Secret Societies like the Gatekeepers, Wardens, and various agencies like the King's Citadel * Members of Knighthoods like the Knights of Thrane and Red Cloak Brigade. * Mercenaries These individuals certainly are rough and tumble (except for the Knighthoods) but form enough of a segment of the population to be noteworthy. They aren't necessarily "heroes" though.
Steelpunk 08-08-05, 09:01 PM	These individuals certainly are rough and tumble (except for the Knighthoods) but form enough of a segment of the population to be noteworthy. They aren't necessarily "heroes" though. I try to reconcile it in much the same way - however it doesn't solve the underlying problem of plain game mechanics when it comes to PC class levels :( Even non-heroes like the Gatekeepers would feel like they'd have high-level members by virtue of their constant war against aberrations, and mercenaries would certainly become more experienced over time as they undertook different jobs. On the whole "hero" thing though, I do agree that actual holders of that title would be relatively rare - though I don't buy the idea that they'd be so rare as to be limited to the PCs alone :)
Charles Phipps 08-08-05, 09:12 PM	I try to reconcile it in much the same way - however it doesn't solve the underlying problem of plain game mechanics when it comes to PC class levels :( Even non-heroes like the Gatekeepers would feel like they'd have high-level members by virtue of their constant war against aberrations, and mercenaries would certainly become more experienced over time as they undertook different jobs. On the whole "hero" thing though, I do agree that actual holders of that title would be relatively rare - though I don't buy the idea that they'd be so rare as to be limited to the PCs alone :) Don't feel constricted to having them COMPLETELY absent then. Keith has also indicated that it still fits the Eberron feel that certain individuals in the campaign can be EXTRAORDINARILY powerful but they tend to be (for whatever reason) limited in some way. Blame the Lords of Dust or the Dragons of the Chamber. A 20th level Cleric who can never leave his tower, a 18th level Druid whose geased to stay watch over his grove, a blind and ancient Sensei whose nevertheless a great monk...and so on and so on. There's also entirely likely to be high level people in certain professions. Just they're rarer than in most worlds. We've had huge arguements on this in the "NPC" thread I've been the worst at.
Beleriphon 08-08-05, 09:12 PM	On the whole "hero" thing though, I do agree that actual holders of that title would be relatively rare - though I don't buy the idea that they'd be so rare as to be limited to the PCs alone :) Right on. Nothing beats an in game antagonist like another group of good aligned characters that just happen to have been hired by the opposing team. :evillaugh
Azual 08-08-05, 09:42 PM	i think you could have had alot of huge level guys, but they were either wiped out at the Cyre explosion, or they were killed int he last war. Think about it. you have hundreds of thousands of men die because of this war, essentially, many of the high level people were killed even before they could reach those lofty levels.
zambuka 08-09-05, 02:29 AM	PC1: "What are we going to do this week, PC2?" PC2: "Same thing we do every week, PC1 - take out the Lords of Dust/Cults of the Dragon Below/Dreaming Dark, and if we have time, give some fashion tips to Merrix d'Cannith" Explore the ancient ruins of Xen'drik. There are bound to be a few remnants of the giant civilisation (A few epic level Giants in an isolated community). A dragon comes and asks the PCs to "deal with" a renegade dragon. Internal politics make it easier to hire mercenaries for this. A crazy deathless, remembering the glory days when the elves first invaded khorvaire, starts laying waste to everything non-elf as it wanders across the continent. The elves won't touch it (through reverence and may even wholy support its actions) and it can sweep armies aside with a swipe of its hand. Only the PC heroes, hardened by battles with Lords of Dust etc can deal with it. (Be wary of the political issues as well) There are plenty of epic encounters available that don't rely on the BBeGs listed in the ECS. Almost any epic adventure available can be slotted into the game at one point or another. As for out-talking/fleecing any king/queen/dragonmarked house in the world... well if you think a mere teen can get away with that type of thing with the power wielded by the houses then you are not really using them correctly. Sure you may be able to con an individual member of the house of organisation but you won't really get away with it for too long when the rest of the organisation finds out. Think of it like this; the great houses could bring forth enough power to deal with anything nasty the world has to offer. However they don't because of the political ramifications of building suitable weapons and wielding such powerful magics (namely the other houses band together to deal with the upstart house and build their own weapons "just in case", a kind of MAD scenario). It is easier and cheaper and much more politically viable to hire a small group of experienced adventurers to deal with whatever is at hand. The same power that could be wielded against any nasty in Eberron could also be turned against some upstart adventuring band, they could also hire another band of experienced adventurers. This gives your characters just as much social interaction at level 20 as they had at level 1, the difference is they have to be more careful because they are literally stepping on the feet of those people who, while not directly the most powerful, wield the most power in the world. Don't think that just because Merrix D'Cannith can't personally throw a maxed out fireball at something he doesn't have the resources to deal with it. Basically at the higher levels it is the roleplay aspects of Eberron that keep the PCs in check (Start fleecing house Cannith? You may just find that every lightning rail trip you want to make is mysteriously booked up, your horses have died of a mysterious disease and the only available mounts are suitable for nothing other than glue, and that airship you rented for a trip to Xen'drik is now on comission somewhere else). You don't need a powerful King because you have powerful kingdoms. You don't need powerful individuals in the church of the Silver Flame because the organisation itself is very powerful. You don't need high level individual NPCs because you have continent spanning, wealthy, powerful organisations to fill that role. Basically when you are at the level when you can convince Merrix that the sky is actually a pleasant shade of puce and he is just colourblind and people are just telling him the sky is blue just to humour him then you are no longer dealing with Merrix D'Cannith the individual, you are dealing with House Cannith as a whole.
Guide D'Jorasco 08-09-05, 04:50 AM	Beholders, Illithids, Demons, Devils, Slaadi, and all the High Level monsters out there exist (not to mention the 40th level or so Daelkyr). Daelkyr are even only CR 20, how did you tack another 20 CR's to them??
6457890 08-09-05, 09:17 AM	Well his not that off. Just add 30 hit dice to the daelkyr and he is Cr 35. Add some other stuff and WALLA!
DragonWatcher 08-09-05, 10:18 AM	The reason for the gap in levels in the setting (from what Keith Baker has written in other threads) has very little to do with attrition, or the Last War, or the Mournland. It all comes down to one word: Potential. Keith has stated that the PCs have a greater potential in the setting than the 99.999% of the NPCs out there. They are the heroes of the setting, the Aragorn, Gandalf, Hercules, et al. It's not that the NPCs all sit at home, but they're also not living up to their full potential. Alright, so maybe an example will help. You're in a class (high-school, college, whatever), and everyone shows up to the same number of classes. You study from the same book, take the same notes, and listen to the same lectures from the same teacher. The day comes that you take an exam, do you expect that everyone will score the same on the exam? It never happens, some people might truely live up to their potential (having taken the extra effort to learn from the book, lecture, etc) and score a 100, while others have wasted the experience that the class gave them, and only score a 62. Keith has indicated that in Eberron, NPCs do not live up to the same potential as PCs (with rare exception). A legendary veteran of the Last War may have spent 20 years of his life in battle after battle. However, he wasn't focused on being a hero, he was focused on surviving. As a result, in 20 years he may only have gained 4 levels. By contrast, a PC adventurer may exceed this Legendary General in a year's time... because they're living up to their full potential. This doesn't mean that you can't have other heroes in the setting, or rival adventuring parties. It just means that they're not a dime a dozen like in other settings. And this certainly doesn't prevent villians from rising to high level... villians seem to live up to their full potential by their very nature. How many high-level characters exist in your Eberron game is entirely up to you, there just won't be many in published source material, since the goal of the setting is simply not to FORCE anyone to use high level NPCs.
Steelpunk 08-09-05, 12:16 PM	Lots of good points, and all things I've mulled over trying to reconcile the flavour of the setting with reality of game mechanics. On the issue of fleecing royalty/dragonmarked houses, I agree that these institutions do wield considerble power. However, if a PC is to a point where they would even attempt it, they would also have the intelligence, experience and secondary skills to likely get away with it, at least for a considerable amount of time before anyone noticed. It's not that I use these institutions poorly so much as I'm blessed with highly innovative and interesting PCs ;) I have a big problem with the whole NPC vs. PC potential, but I've reconciled it by telling myself that PCs split kill experience among far fewer people than a regiment of warriors in the Last War would, which would account for much slower NPC progression. However, after all this back-and-forth in the thread, I've been struck by an idea that keeps high-level PCs in rewarding social interaction without necessarily having to pit them against BBEGs, while preserving the spirit of the setting - so I thank y'all :D
Charles Phipps 08-09-05, 01:36 PM	Daelkyr are even only CR 20, how did you tack another 20 CR's to them?? Keith said they have PC levels and possibly up to 20 more. That's only their 'base'
DragonWatcher 08-09-05, 02:26 PM	Keith said they have PC levels and possibly up to 20 more. That's only their 'base' Actually concerning the Daelkyr, Keith said: Daelkyr can be faced. The one in the book is the baseline, and in my opinion, the "named" daelkyr – Orlassk, Belashyrra, and so on – are considerably more powerful. However, I wouldn't give them class abilities; I'd go with 40-50 Outsider dice and then just add on special qualities and salient abilities related to their nature. The description of Orlassk touches on this. It's not a wizard, but it can do things with stone no wizard could. So certainly on a demon prince level – but hey, characters CAN face demon princes. And to answer an early question on the subject, I think that if a daelkyr is killed, it probably IS banished from Eberron. Its essence may reform in Xoriat, but it could be possible to drive the daelkyr from Eberron. here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=448885&page=17&pp=30
a_psh 08-09-05, 02:53 PM	I have a big problem with the whole NPC vs. PC potential, but I've reconciled it by telling myself that PCs split kill experience among far fewer people than a regiment of warriors in the Last War would, which would account for much slower NPC progression. Knights of the Old Republic 2 handled this well... near the end, when it's revealed just how screwy you are, an NPC asks you "What, you really thought that everyone gained astronomical power by murderying people?" I should note here that XP is about challenge, not kill count. That may help make the battle thing more reasonable. Not quite sure how.
makeshiftwings 08-09-05, 03:07 PM	If they're out-talking kings and queens and such, that doesn't have anything to do with levels, that has to do with the fact that Diplomacy is flat out broken in d&d, and most other social skills are as well. I've found it's nearly impossible to use any of the social skills as written... I just take what the player's saying, look at their relative skills, roll some dice once in a while, and decide what to do on a case by case basis. If you're going by the default rules that say a 4th level bard can use Diplomacy to bypass every combat in existence and turn every raging balor into a friendly ally, then the game will fall apart, no matter how epic you make your bad guys.
Just another user 08-09-05, 04:23 PM	Daelkyr are even only CR 20, how did you tack another 20 CR's to them?? The daelkyr in the book is the weakest of the bunch, Keith said Daeklyrs arrive to 50 HDs easy with powers in proportion.
Steelpunk 08-10-05, 01:24 AM	If they're out-talking kings and queens and such, that doesn't have anything to do with levels, that has to do with the fact that Diplomacy is flat out broken in d&d, and most other social skills are as well. I've found it's nearly impossible to use any of the social skills as written... I just take what the player's saying, look at their relative skills, roll some dice once in a while, and decide what to do on a case by case basis. If you're going by the default rules that say a 4th level bard can use Diplomacy to bypass every combat in existence and turn every raging balor into a friendly ally, then the game will fall apart, no matter how epic you make your bad guys. I insist on roleplaying interactions to even determine if a Diplomacy role is allowed. If a PC is being crass, generally I won't allow it, or might with a significant penalty. I also flat-out don't allow Diplomacy rolls against hostile attitudes, since anything hostile isn't really going to be in the mood for talking. For unfriendly attitudes, the PCs have to make an effort to get the NPC into a position where they want to listen before any roll is made. I also don't treat Diplomacy as a permanent attitude change for the encounter - if a PC makes a diplomatic faux-pas later in the same conversation, they roll again at a penalty to maintain the attitude. Generally, my PCs only use Diplomacy to gain information, get into exclusive establishments or mediate the debates of two or more outside NPCs - they agree that using it as per the official rules is broken. In the end though, it does have at least something to do with levels, since higher level = higher Diplomacy.