Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uller999 05-25-05, 01:55 PM	I don't personally like Epic, I think its boring and that high of a level certain amounts of rediculousness begin to creep into my game; however during a discussion on the races board I came to realization that Epic works really well in Eberron. Now I don't like Epic so bear that in mind when I say this In Eberron players, especially at higher levels are to be the prime movers and shakers of the campaign world. they are the ultimate trouble shooters and Keith has said on the hellcow thread that Eberron is geared more towards players being heroes and that otherwise some tweaking is in order. This helps explains why most "good" NPCs are low level and why most of the villains are high level or mentioned as being scalable. So what do you all think does Eberron ruin the flavour of the game or is it the only setting besides Planescape where epic can really get going and make some degree of sense?
Kid SixXx 05-25-05, 02:11 PM	With foes like the Daelkyr and the Quori to square off against, eventually an Eberron campaign can be Epic. Epic has it's time and place, and perhaps a future Dragonshard will deal with Epic Eberron campaigns.
Euangelion 05-25-05, 02:20 PM	Of course Epic works well in Eberron; there's terrors out there that only Epic level heroes can hope to face: the full fury of the Dreaming Dark, the final infernal machinations of the Lords of Dust, etc., etc. Eberron is not meant to be a sanctuary from Epic-level adventuring, it's meant to be the place where four Epic-level adventurers who have fought side by side from day 1 can plausibly be the only hope of the world. Edit: what Kid SixXx said ;)
Korhal_IV 05-25-05, 02:34 PM	No, I don't like the idea of epic in Eberron. I'm even leery about getting to regular ol' level 20 in Eberron, unless you really work for it. It's true that there are many possible epic level foes in Eberron, but I feel their awesome power is diminished if there's even the possibility that you'll be able to defeat them - or even give them a run for their money. Personally, I'm comfortable with a 15th level cap on Eberron campaigns, but I'd probably feel differently if I ever got my PC up to that level.
DarkWarriorKarg 05-25-05, 03:05 PM	Considering that many "Epic" feats are not all that epic to begin with... I see no problem with it. Bear in mind, of course, that you need to able to handle such a game yourself. But then... By 20th level... The fighter can cleave his way through waves of enemies. The archer is a one-man barrage. The cleric sics his planetar buddy on you while gating in a solar The wizard or sorcerer is exterminating mass quantities of enemies. The psion turns you into a vegetable or drops a level 9 construct on you. The rogue has already stolen your staff of the magi and replaced it with a fishing rod... you just haven't noticed yet The bard has everyopne moving in lockstep. The monk mows his way in matrix-style. So you should be able to handle epic by then.
Knuckles 05-25-05, 03:35 PM	It can be Epic. There are enough 20th level treaths - from the mentioned Quori and Dalkyr past the Lords of Dust, to the Dragons and the Aerenal. As a DM, I would not let a player start an Eberron character from a level other than first, but if he develops it I would gladly design the adventures they would pass thru. The PCs actions could definatelly influence the world (probably they would, since all epic-level adversaries have hold over a portion of it), but that always happens with epic-level PCs.
Uller999 05-25-05, 06:06 PM	Don't forget plane-hopping in Eberron. A quest to Dal Quor to kill the Quori who has manopolized your family or your best friend or to break hold of the Quori's influence on Sarlona is easily an epic quest. Or if you need to get involved in the war between the angels and the demons or if you need to get your friend's sould out of Mabar or any other planar trip in eberron seems to screem epic.
Crimsonsun 05-25-05, 06:20 PM	The rogue has already stolen your staff of the magi and replaced it with a fishing rod... you just haven't noticed yet Love that! You forgot one tho ;) The artificer has enchanted the party out the wazoo, and can do insane amounts of damage with two wooden sticks from a distance!
Edymnion 05-25-05, 09:53 PM	Especially in Eberron, Epic level should only be appropriate AFTER they have played up from lvl 1. Make them EARN it. Just starting an Epic level Eberron game is like buying the latest hot new game, and the first time you turn it on using a cheat device to warp to the last level. I mean, at that point, whats the point? You just skipped 95% of the game.
stone_dog 05-25-05, 10:54 PM	I mean, at that point, whats the point? You just skipped 95% of the game. Unless the campaign that you have in mind is already geared up towards an epic level struggle. Then you aren't skipping anything, but instead are starting the game right where it should be. Seriously, if somebody has a story that needs great big people to delve into the deepest reaches of whatever and face untold evils that will prevent the very fabric of the universe from unravelling then that person should NOT start at first level just to wander about leveling up until he gets to the good stuff that inspired him to start a game in the first place. I think Isaac Asimov said something like, "If you are writing a story and you find it isn't going well, you might well be starting in the wrong place. The wrong place is almost certainly 'too soon.' " Never work your way up to the good stuff. Start with the good stuff and go from there. Sometimes the good stuff is street level dealings with street thugs in Sharn at first level. Sometimes it is facing down the Lords of Xoriat themselves at 30th. Sometimes it is a sweeping campaign that starts at 1st level and cascades up to 20th and beyond in a sprawling tale of the rise of heroes. However I have never even heard of the good stuff being anything like "Lets level up till we are big enough to get to the main plot."
Edymnion 05-25-05, 11:35 PM	However I have never even heard of the good stuff being anything like "Lets level up till we are big enough to get to the main plot."No, it means you save it for later on, and come up with other stuff to do in the mean time. Well, let me qualify that first. Eberron was specifically designed for low level play. Much of the setting is built around this, and by bypassing it, you bypass much of the written material, and start getting into homebrew territory. For example, I have the ending of the campaign I'm starting up that is going to involve the real cause of the Mourning, with trips deep into the heart of Xen'Drik and Argonessa, with the Dragon Council itself getting involved. Doesn't mean I need to start there, even though thats the "good stuff". There's lots of game before that, a whole lifetime of adventures the PCs have had before they reached that point. I prefer to actually be there when they are making great names for themselves instead of just waving a hand and saying "Yeah, you all did amazing stuff before, but we don't care about how you became the greatest in the land, this is what you're doing now."
aelryinth 05-25-05, 11:56 PM	It's all about keeping busy. Face it, the rulers of the realms, the movers and shakers, don't have huge levels because they spend all their time being movers and shakers, not tomb-raiding, butchering, looting, raiding and inflicting mass property damage. Er, Adventuring. Epic Adventurers are going to be hugely powerful...and just as busy with the 'business' of adventuring. If they want to get into the rulership business, they should promptly run smack into the Epic level opponents who don't WANT Epic level movers and shakers running things...which gets them out of the M@S business and back into the Adventuring business. I have a thread over on Monte's boards about a character moved up from ~10th into Epic levels. he's ALWAYS got something to do. The high level EPics delegate lesser duties, the high level non Epics clamor for him to take care of things, his friends call him for help for this or that, etc etc. he doesn't have 'down time' to speak of...ruling is rather out of the question. Eberron is set up exactly that way. Plots, plots, plots. Your characters can be hugely powerful, feared, respected...but as soon as they grab for temporal power, the diabolic alarm bell goes off and they should be up to their armpits in disaster after subterfuge, and on the adventuring goes as the reins of power go back to somewhat less awesome, and less dangerous, hands. ==Ælryinth
Jürgen Hubert 05-26-05, 12:18 AM	Unless the campaign that you have in mind is already geared up towards an epic level struggle. Then you aren't skipping anything, but instead are starting the game right where it should be. But in Eberron, this raises the question: "Why didn't you win the Last War"? Because epic level characters easily could have. Eberron is not like Exalted, where more or less ordinary people are suddenly transformed into epic characters. If there are epic characters in the world, they need a backstory.
stone_dog 05-26-05, 12:30 AM	No, it means you save it for later on, and come up with other stuff to do in the mean time. This is not the only way to play a RPG of any kind. Granted it has its merits just like anything else does, but seriously, would you want to play through filler adventures while you wait for something good to happen? God knows I wouldn't. Of course if those filler adventures end up being connected in a way that is interesting OR I know going into the game that it is just light hearted adventure gaming then all is well. Eberron was specifically designed with low level play in mind. To borrow a tradition from RPG.net, fixed your typo. ;) Not being hostile or threatening to low level characters is not the same as being a low level game. There is more than enough room for play of all types and at all levels without being forced into one true way. I can't understand the idea that starting out at a higher level means that you are bypassing the setting material. My game started out at 8th level with people who have only heard of Eberron because I wasn't shutting up about it for a good long while. I use Sharn as is, the mournlands as is (with my own pet explaination for them of course) and when I get to Droaam I'll be using the info right out of the core book just like anybody else. How is this homebrew when the material is the same as what everybody else has access to? Heck, there are quite a few NPCs that are hovering in the 20th level region. Is it really Keith's intention that they be merely background dressing and plot devices for low level characters to marvel at? I prefer to actually be there when they are making great names for themselves instead of just waving a hand and saying "Yeah, you all did amazing stuff before, but we don't care about how you became the greatest in the land, this is what you're doing now." You mean like Aragorn? Or maybe Fafrhd and the Grey Mouser? Indigo Montoya? How about the classic Lensman stories? A great many beloved character starts out with a handwaved backstory and jumps right into what they are doing now. I understand the preference to start out with the origin of a group's adventuring career, but it is niether the only way to start a game nor the best way in all circumstances. Sure it works out very often. Rand Al'Thor, Luke Skywalker, starting out fresh with Batman Begins and many other stories depend on the origin to make them work out right. You mentioned that you have a campaign that ends with some pretty sweet sounding stuff. It sounds like it is the climax of a long series of novels that has been building for some time. If that is the case then of course you shouldn't start there. The more good stuff you have in a story the earlier you should start IF the good stuff happens early. I am actually considering using the upcoming Age of Worms adventure path in Dungeon as the basis of an extended campaign about the second invasion of Xoriat because first level is the right place for this particular story to start. And, to be honest it will be nice to have somebody else to the bulk of the work for me for once. "In media res*" is just as valid for adventure roleplaying as starting in at the beginning and works out just as well with the same amount of care and effort. Eberron does not deny either style and only encourages either one in that there is plenty for both to do and still be important in the long run. I don't like Epic games much either, Edymnion. The scope just isn't something that I have ever had fun playing. But as far as I am concerned "an all are enjoying the game without harm shall be the whole of the law." *Lat., adv. – in or into the middle of a sequence of events, as in a literary narrative.
stone_dog 05-26-05, 12:48 AM	But in Eberron, this raises the question: "Why didn't you win the Last War"? Because epic level characters easily could have.Yes, this is a question that should be raised when starting an epic level game. there are MANY questions that should be raised when starting an Epic level game, but these questions shouldn't be stopping somebody from crafting an epic level game should they not want to bother with mucking about at low levels. Maybe the game centers around ancient Elven agents of the Undying Court? Or perhaps great and mighty tribesmen from deep in Xen'Drik emerge to explore the strange place to the North that sends thieves to steal the secrets of the Dragons. I am not saying that somebody should treat an epic level of game like any simple dungeon crawl. You are starting something of magnificent scope and grandure that even a beginning Solar Exalt only dreams about. It deserves all the care and attention that such a thing implies, but that somebody shouldn't get discouraged from a grand vision just because some other body claims that "Epic level should only be appropriate AFTER they have played up from lvl 1."
PsionicMonk 05-26-05, 01:58 AM	i dont see anything wrong with playing a game the way you want to. yes the modules where setup for the low lvl chrs, but as my DM has said, that they are really more of an intro to Eberron. Plus going into the mornland at such a low lvl, is damn near suicide. Heck at epic lvls, make them go into that area, and try to stop whatever is creating it. Any uber high lvl chr can be brought down by the rules of that screwed up area, i mean not being able to get large amount of HP back is painful, cuase then your haveing to rest for long periods where things can attack you, and kill you. *shrugs* Eberron, is like any other D&D game, it can be RP based or it canbe combat based. Nothing in the book that says you cant do either one. its all up to your DM
Templar_Prime 05-26-05, 02:30 AM	I'm not sure how to handle level 20+ characters in Eberron, but I do know that I'm going to have to figure it out. PCs started at 6th level (our group does not believe in 1st level starts), and are now around 12th...and just now encountering elements of the real plot. Oh yeah. They'll be epic levels by the time we finish....
Just another user 05-26-05, 03:54 AM	However I have never even heard of the good stuff being anything like "Lets level up till we are big enough to get to the main plot." Never played a Final Fantasy game? The good stuff is at the end but it is "good stuff" only because you made all the journey 'till there, hence it would just be another monster. Destroyning the daelkir is so much better when you have seen what the aberrations did to that village into the eldeen reaches and when you can remember that old friend that you failed to save when was kidnappend by some illithids and was turned into a xoriat-spawn under your very eyes, or when you were a under a beholder charm for weeks before you were able to break free and kill it, or other things like that, I think would have a lot more gusto than not just "you are 25th level and for some reason you want to stop the Daelkirs" :cool: ;)
stone_dog 05-26-05, 10:31 AM	Never played a Final Fantasy game? The good stuff is at the end but it is "good stuff" only because you made all the journey 'till there, hence it would just be another monster. Actually, I can't stand playing final fantasy games. Lunar I don't mind so much for some reason and I like Final Fantasy imagery, but every last FF game I've played I just can't stand slogging though miles of random encounters and mini games just so you can be powerful enough to beat the next boss. The ending of the games always leaves me cold too. It always feels like so much damn work for not much payback. Obviously I am not making myself clear. If nobody has ever played single, self contained high powered stories then it must be impossible to explain that they can be just as fun and rewarding as mega campaigns that go from 1-20+. The idea that one way of playing a game of make believe is so inherantly better than another is astounding to me.
Gurv 05-26-05, 12:13 PM	The idea that one way of playing a game of make believe is so inherantly better than another is astounding to me. Seriously claiming that Eberron is only for low-level games, or only for games that begin at low levels, is what I find astounding. I thought we gamers were supposed to be more creative than that. Eberron is designed to be well suited to a low-level play style, something other settings have been unable to support. And that is one of the things that make it great: Eberron campaigns can be awesome without being high-level. But Eberron is also designed to be able to scale up with the players, and holds adventure for characters of all levels. Before I argue that epic levels are perfectly possible on Eberron, I should say that one of the things I like the most about Eberron is that you can be “epic” at low levels. The threats that a 5th level party can deal with might actually destroy the world if they don’t pull it off, because they are the only 5th level party available to do it. Before you decide that you are going to run an epic game, you should ask yourself whether you really need to in order to accomplish what you have in mind. Eberron will let you save the world at much lower levels than other settings will; the bad guy who holds the little red button that destroys life as we know it might be a paragon mind flayer. Then again, it might just be a mind flayer...who nonetheless has the little red button. I think one of the key points in Eberron is that leveling should be invisible. It is the DMs job to maintain the illusion that although a character is higher level than those who surround him, he is still just a highly skilled person. The only difference between a 5th level fighter and a 15th level fighter should be that one is simply better than the other. To the people watching the fight, all they see is that the second warrior is a true master who outstrips even the skilled fighting prowess of the first. If the fight was between a 1st level warrior and a 5th level fighter, they would see much the same thing. Magic brings a new dimension to the model, but the same thing applies: two wizards of the same level, dueling with spells, are going to determine who is greater based almost entirely on the intelligence of their previously cast spells and who is quicker. The only real difference caused by being higher level is the extent of the collateral damage and the flashiness of the magic. More importantly, challenges in Eberron should not be all about who can blow who up. Just because the characters can do that more easily doesn’t mean that it should suddenly become a good way of handling things. Gathering information and roleplaying should still take precedent over hack-and-slash combat. Keep things on the same level, just raise the DCs a bit. First level or epic level, dealing with a proper mystery-intrigue adventure, or an exploration-scavenger hunt campaign requires the same amount of forethought and planning. One could easily modify the Forgotten Forge adventure to epic levels without much change to the plot at all. Just increase the CR of all the encounters, take the typical epic considerations into account so that the game isn't ended with a single divination spell (the idea that an ancient Cannith Foundry be warded against such discovery fits in fine to me), add a few more challenges to drain those epic resources, and so on and so forth. It would take some work, but it is entirely doable. I am considering, in the back of my mind, a starting ECL 20 game which will go epic soon after. I don't think it will be a problem as long as the players realize that they can't solve their problems by destroying everything that opposes them. Part of the early plot may revolve around the repercussions of that mistaken belief. Mordain the Fleshweaver may be a terrible individual who did horrible experiments on your cousin, but the things you released when you annihilated his tower without much forethought...that will be the focus of the campaign. I am thinking of using the tsochari from Lords of Madness (when I get my own copy), making some of them epic and spreading the rest of them widely. The whole point being that the campaign will revolve around figuring out what it going on and what can be done about it, something that even epic PCs will find challenging despite their awesome power. You can’t kill King Boranel just because he has an epic level parasite, because it hardly solves the problem, now does it? Especially if just proving that he has an epic level parasite would make people question who really signed the Treaty of Thronehold. Half the challenge of being epic level is learning to use all that power with subtlety, so that the normal people don’t get crushed while you try to save them.
stone_dog 05-26-05, 02:15 PM	Before I argue that epic levels are perfectly possible on Eberron, I should say that one of the things I like the most about Eberron is that you can be “epic” at low levels. (snipping for space constraints) Harken to Gurv, for he is wise. And this... Mordain the Fleshweaver may be a terrible individual who did horrible experiments on your cousin, but the things you released when you annihilated his tower without much forethought...that will be the focus of the campaign.is gold. You aren't in San Diego by chance... are you? ;) Alas, back to the grind for me.
Uller999 05-26-05, 02:37 PM	I do think starting at Epic levels sucks. Having done it before I found my character hard to flesh out and conceptualize and if my chracter does amazing things it means more if he earned it rather than it just being given by a DM. I understand story concerns and stuff for DMs wanting to run Epic games but the as Gurv said the beauty thing about Eberron is you can have the feeling of being an epic chracter in Eberron at 9th level. I mean your group is going to be one of the single hardest units of people in the campaign world at ninth level and by that time you'll be involved in some major point or another
Gurv 05-26-05, 05:14 PM	Harken to Gurv, for he is wise. I may have to sig that, if you don't mind. Can I be wise and conceited, or does that break the rules? And this... is gold. You aren't in San Diego by chance... are you? ;) I live in San Diego in the same way that Sharn and Regalport are neighbors. Except that New England isn't full of pirates. True story. I do think starting at Epic levels sucks. Having done it before I found my character hard to flesh out and conceptualize and if my character does amazing things it means more if he earned it rather than it just being given by a DM. This is a common conception, and one that is hard to break. We are just so used to gaining levels by earning XP that we forget that such things are only for PCs and their ilk. Before you played your character, he was an NPC. How he became the PC he is now is entirely a matter of back-story. If you create a 1st level character, then he has already done awesome things, and is already an awesome individual. Same with an epic PC. Back-story is just that, back-story. It can include anything you want and exclude anything you don't want. All it does is explain how the character got to be where he is today. A gamer's knee-jerk reaction to that is to say "No, if he is epic level, then his back-story must be long and intense, and explain how he got all that XP". But that is untrue. Before he became a PC, your character never earned a single point of XP, whether you start at 1st level, 5th, or 25th level. He gained all that skill and potential from whatever happened in the back-story. Poof. How did a 1st level wizard get so cool? He studied the writings of ancient Xen'drik, unlocking the secrets of the universe. How did a 20th level wizard get so cool? He studied the secrets of Xen'drik, unlocking the secrets of the universe. Believe it or not, there are more ways be high-level than to defeat 13.3 encounters of each CR. NPCs don't adventure for whatever levels they have, they get by on natural skills and potential and whatever they learned during their back-story. Imagine a story about a warrior who left his village one day to see the world, and who was set upon by a tribe of savage humanoids, who he battled, and came out victorious. Why did you just picture goblins? Why couldn't he be such a skilled warrior that defeating minotaurs is beyond him? Or trolls? Learning that he is a natural at something is part of nearly every PC's back-story. One that is going to be started at epic levels is just the same, doing impressive things from before you started playing him. He didn't do anything impossible. We all know that defeating a tribe of minotaurs is possible, that the people of the world will not find it impossible to believe. But we as players have a hard time envisioning it, because we assume that everyone that walks out of a village for the first time is a 1HD individual. Just tell that story of "He was a natural born swordsman, mastering the warrior's art almost instinctively" and mean it. Nothing stranger than telling that story, only to be twice as good the week after. It becomes even easier to explain the sudden appearance of an epic spellcaster. We all know the story of a young sorcerer who suddenly manifests magical ability. In this version of the story, that manifestation just happens to be polar ray. Epic clerics are blessed with powers from their gods. Really blessed. It is all in how you spin the story. Forget the numbers, and just tell the story.
Cutlass 05-26-05, 05:59 PM	Just to be contrarian and throw a little aviation gasoline on the fire ... :) Personally, I like the idea of starting characters at 2nd level. It gives multiclass characters the opportunity to acquire their second class without having to take a significant amount of down time to do it. It also makes the characters a little more robust and slightly less likely to fall over immediately just because an NPC got a good hit against them. For some characters, like a wizard, getting that extra spell to cast (or other neat ability for a 2nd level whatever) can make things a heck of a lot easier.
stone_dog 05-26-05, 06:33 PM	I may have to sig that, if you don't mind. Can I be wise and conceited, or does that break the rules?Knock yourself out. As far as I can tell it isn't conciet if you merely quote somebody else. Shame about the San Diego thing. I could use actually PLAYING my favorite setting instead of running it for once.
Gurv 05-26-05, 09:05 PM	I could use actually PLAYING my favorite setting instead of running it for once.Tell me about it. I've tried joining Play By Post games so that I could play in the setting, but so far none of them have gotten off the ground really. Another thought on the topic of "Epic in Eberron". Imagine all the ways that you could create a starting epic character with the various plot elements available in the setting. Maybe you have been singled out by the Prophecy to defeat some coming apocalypse and the dragons have hauled your butt to Argonnessen to undergo some magically enhanced training. What exactly do they need you to do that they can not do themselves? Perhaps you were a foolish apprentice experimenting with forbidden spellbooks containing knowledge of the daelkyr. Everyone knows the legend of the apprentice who is destroyed seeking a shortcut to infinite power. What about the time it works? The Lords of Dust have discovered a way to free a rajah. They can temporarily transfer part of a rajah's power to a willing mortal. Using the power that the rajah retains to attack the bindings from within while the mortal does the same from the outside will quickly free the rajah from its bonds. Of course, mortals rarely do what they are expected to, so the chosen one will need to be coerced and tricked into performing the task without knowing what it is doing. Then the mortal can be destroyed so that the rajah can have its powers back.
Uller999 05-26-05, 11:45 PM	Look I don't care about the back story of the average NPC it more than often dosn't come up and remainds within the demense of the DM. Having been on both sides of the screen I find it is easier for both my players and me to get into a chracter in whom they've invested great amounts of time. This seems obvious. An epic chracter will have to have done all these different things to get to that high level and yet that is just supposed to be back story. I don't buy that and I don't like it. Yes a 1st level character has back story but that back story is likely to be small and the web of world effect that spins out from that is likely to be small. A 20th level character especially in Eberron will have had a drastic effect on the gaming world as almost all of the high-level character in Eberron have done. So I think Epic in Eberron is definatley viable but starting at Epic at least for me takes away alot from the my role-playing expierence and it also turns me into a number cruncher since your skill checks rule the scene but I suppose actualizing skill rolls is a problem for any game regardless of level.
Edymnion 05-27-05, 01:10 AM	How about the classic Lensman stories?Actually, yes, him getting the Lense, meeting up with his partners, that was great stuff. Farm boy turned savior of the humanoid universe. Lets take Star Wars for an example, since Ep. III just came out. For some 30 years, did Vader make a kick-ass villian even though we knew nothing about his background? Yup. But with the end of the prequals, do we have a MUCH better grip on who Vader is as a person, and not just a flat stereotype badguy? Yup. Even with the questionable quality of the first two movies, Star Wars became more enjoyable to watch when we knew the background of what was going on. Why did Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru shoot each other such a strange glance when Luke mentioned "Old Ben Kenobi"? What was the "Aren't you a little short to be a Storm Trooper?" line supposed to mean? Why did Luke get stuck with moisture farmers while Leah got to be a princess? Those were questions that just hung in the air from the original movies, and were never answered (outside of the books). Now we have an answer, now we know whats going on. Was it necissary to have those answers? No, not really. Does it give us a better grip on whats going on? Yes it does. Starting at high levels is fine if thats what everybody wants to do, but I have always seen it as missing out on a LOT of good gaming. And really, even those stories that start in the middle usually have some flashbacks or other means of telling you what happened before we jumped in.
stone_dog 05-27-05, 11:08 AM	Actually, yes, him getting the Lense, meeting up with his partners, that was great stuff. Farm boy turned savior of the humanoid universe. For the most part I can see that we are understanding each other at at the brink of going around in pointless "Yeah? But what about THIS character/book/movie?" circles. I feel good and telling points have been made on both sides. I just want to know if you ever read the book or are just going on the anime? I only say this because at the best of my memory (lent the book out, can't check with anything other than GURPS Lensman which is practically a research paper on the series) Kimball Kinnison starts the series after graduating in an elite group of 150 out of a thousand Academy recruits. After one mission the powers that be decide that he is enough of a bad ass that they make him a Grey Lensman. So at the beginning of the first book he is the elite of the elite, beholden to no force or authority because no force or authority is greater than his own will and conscience. "Farmboy" seems to be a bit degrading when applied to the penultimate male human with the best training and equipment Civilization has to offer. He is a James Bond without superiours (and with very few peers), but with the mental powers greater than Charles Xavier* and the physical result of thousands of years of an alien eugenics program. And "humanoid universe" is a bit odd since out of the four major races (defined as the important ones in the alien guardianship program) three of them are not humanoid in any sense of the word. Now, it could be that you have read the book and were just boiling it down the concept because of time and space constraints. If that is true, just consider the previous ramble a bit of shilling for the work of the First Historian and a simple "Yeah, I've read them. Calm down dog" will do nicely. ;) If anybody reading this HASN'T read any of "Doc" Smith's sci fi books, well you should. They are the founding works of Space Opera and Smith himself was an impressive human in his own right. Okay. I'm done ranting. Enjoy your regularly scheduled Eberron discussion threads. *Not really innate psychic might. The Lens enhances the shortcomings of the race it is attached to. In the case of humans, it is telepathic power. Kimball IS however a very very smart and well trained human and as the nigh perfection of human potential the Lens had a lot more to work with. The things he does in the first book alone are starkly astounding.
Edymnion 05-27-05, 02:37 PM	^^^What he said ^^^ :P
aelryinth 05-28-05, 01:30 AM	Kimball Kinnision is the Human Penultimate...the father of the Successors of Mentor's Race. He is everything a human can be, the very best of our race. He's Batman, and then give him a Power Ring and send him out into the universe, instead of just a utility belt...but he knows how to use that utility belt, too. So Mr Kinnision is definitely Epic...especially when he starts killing people with just the fallout from his final psychic conflicts with the BBEG's. And his kids dwarf him...they don't even need lenses, really...they are more for show, to justify their abilities. Visualize the Cosmic All, lately, anyone?.... ===Aelryinth
CannonFodder2244 05-28-05, 07:38 PM	So at the beginning of the first book he is the elite of the elite, beholden to no force or authority because no force or authority is greater than his own will and conscience. "Farmboy" seems to be a bit degrading when applied to the penultimate male human with the best training and equipment Civilization has to offer. He is a James Bond without superiours (and with very few peers), but with the mental powers greater than Charles Xavier* and the physical result of thousands of years of an alien eugenics program. That seems a bit... boring. The way you describe it, the story starts off with deus ex machina and goes from there. That's one of the problems that I feel plagues Superman and the HALO novels - if the protagonist is already the biggest, hugest, most ultimate uber-of-the-uber, then what is there to challenge him short of plot-device villains and thermonuclear weapons? Growth is good for stories.
Gurv 05-28-05, 08:04 PM	That seems a bit... boring. The way you describe it, the story starts off with deus ex machina and goes from there. That's one of the problems that I feel plagues Superman and the HALO novels - if the protagonist is already the biggest, hugest, most ultimate uber-of-the-uber, then what is there to challenge him short of plot-device villains and thermonuclear weapons? Growth is good for stories. The reason that I think Epic in Eberron might be more interesting than it is elsewhere is because Eberron isn't supposed to be all about beating people up and destroying the BBEG with the uber-power. Eberron is never supposed to be about that junk. So having it in an Eberron campaign doesn't change things that drastically: you are still the toughest guy around. All that changes is the degree by which you are cooler than everyone else. Growth is good for stories. But why does all growth have to start at 1st level? Is it a magical moment when all stories start? Or might it be possible that the story starts when interesting things happen to capable individuals? I am not against starting games at 1st level. But it surprises me that people think that doing otherwise makes less sense in some way. I seems to show more attention to mechanics than to the story to care whether the character has 10 hit points and loses 5 instead of having 100 and taking 50. I think that challenging someone with epic power would produce an interesting plot. I mean, you can't challenge such an individual with a big monster-eating princess. You have to challenge them with something special, something that can't be dealt with by blowing it apart. Having PCs with that kind of ability means that the problems they face are so subtle, so involved, and so deep that they really have to figure out how to deal with them before they start throwing mountains around. That brings up another point: there are a lot of ways to do an epic game. You can take the DBZ approach that seems so popular on the Epic boards. That doesn't fit well with Eberron and isn't what I am talking about at all. Throwing a mountain, whether within your power or not, is not a good solution to anything in an Eberron game. There should be a reason that you don't do things like that. Perhaps you are trying to maintain a normal guise; you might be Clark Kent or Peter Parker. Perhaps you have a Code of Conduct that requires you to use the least amount of power possible. Imagine an epic Gatekeeper druid who fears that the improper use of Epic Spells is what caused the Dragons to destroy the giants as well as the Mournlands. I think that all good characters should have a good idea of exactly what they will and will not do, especially if they have the power to do things that no one else can.
PsionicMonk 05-28-05, 08:09 PM	If you plan on doing hte modules, low lvl is about the only way to go. But if you go homebrew, then anything is posable, and that is left up to the imagination, so if you got a good one go for it, if not well, try it out, whats the worest that can happen, have to start over? It is a game after all. And for all you people who think, "The joureny to greatness, is what makes you great." Honestly, why have lvl 20 if you arent going to use it? Why didnt Kieth just make the levels to 10, so no one would argue about wither high level games are good or not. Granted i think there needs to be alittle more added to the Art. at the higher levels to round it out alittle. But really guys, play the game with all different lvls and see which one you like. If you wanna give your players a better chance in the game let them get an extra 1-2 levels, the game is sposed to be 'fun' not some sort of test
Euangelion 05-28-05, 08:17 PM	It's been said before, but I feel it's important to repeat that in Eberron in particular Epic doesn't mean that one person or even a party of Epic-level characters can defeat the uber villains of the setting by themselves. It means that they are the only ones who can unite the fractured forces of good against the evils of the world (or vice versa!) For example, it means that they, and only they, can end the conflict between the Undying Court and the dragons of Argonossen (sp?) and unite them against the Lords of Dust, resulting in the banishment of all the rajahs (including the one at Flamekeep!) from Eberron forever, or something like that. A party wouldn't necessarily even have to have 21+ character levels in order to do it, but it certainly would be an epic (in the truest sense of the word) adventure.
Uller999 05-28-05, 08:29 PM	But really guys, play the game with all different lvls and see which one you like. If you wanna give your players a better chance in the game let them get an extra 1-2 levels, the game is sposed to be 'fun' not some sort of test For the players a challenge really can equate to the test, its important for the atmosphere of the game that the PCs not know if they are going to survive an encounter or how disatrous the effects of their actions can be. In that regard it is like a test. The fun is the not knowing. A players must pit their skills against whatever. Its not that fun to be a farmers pitted against a potential dry season. The fun comes from the challenge and the consquences of how those challenges are met, the fun comes from "the test" in Epic the scope is bigger that's all, for me it just get beyond the realm where I can identify with characters, it why I never felt anything for Gandalf and why I hate superman, I can't empathize with them they are too powerful, I find that same problem with epic characters.
Euangelion 05-28-05, 08:59 PM	in Epic the scope is bigger that's all, for me it just get beyond the realm where I can identify with characters, it why I never felt anything for Gandalf and why I hate superman, I can't empathize with them they are too powerful, I find that same problem with epic characters. I hear you loud and clear, but what I like about Eberron is that no matter how powerful an individual can get, there is a group/organization out there that collectively is more powerful than they are. Shoot, even Gandalf wasn't invincible (he did die, after all, though he was rereleased for a limited time only), and his true power, though great, was limited and very subtle. This is also true of any one character in Eberron, no matter how Epic they are. Thus it is imperative that if they want to accomplish their lofty goals, they must make connections, negotiate, inspire, intimidate, and so on (in other words, roleplay!) to achieve them in between their epic physical struggles. Edit: this even addresses the initial post, the point not being that epic has no place in Eberron, but (to paraphrase Star Wars) that the ability to destroy the Lord of Blades pales in comparison to the power of the other forces/organizations/orders out there.
Uller999 05-28-05, 09:37 PM	agreed, that's why I think Eberron is the only game where I could have epic and now feel like something is being compromised in the process. I always had a feeling that Faerun's epic character were neccesary to the intergrity of that world but there are no such heros in Eberron, there are only the PCs to fight the Dreaming Dark and the Lords of Dust.
Euangelion 05-28-05, 09:54 PM	agreed, that's why I think Eberron is the only game where I could have epic and now feel like something is being compromised in the process. I always had a feeling that Faerun's epic character were neccesary to the intergrity of that world but there are no such heros in Eberron, there are only the PCs to fight the Dreaming Dark and the Lords of Dust. Did you mean "not feel like something is being compromised..." or they way it's written?
Gurv 05-28-05, 10:06 PM	I feel that the test of an Epic character in Eberron is to make use of his powers in a manner appropriate to the setting. I agree that many players would not do so, and I think that is what most of those opposed to the idea have issue with. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that jazz. But if you have the right players for the job, then their characters wouldn't walk around like a bunch of super-beings, any more than properly played 10th level character don't walk around that way. Particularly confident, yes. But aware of their mortality in a world where there are always beings who are stronger than you, and always organizations that can outdo you. For example, what can a 21st level party do to the Aurum? Assuming that they know such a secret organization exists, and even assuming that they have no epic level individuals themselves. They could try to expose them. But being epic doesn't mean that everyone considers you an expert on conspiracy theory, nor does it mean that you actually have proof. You can try to kill them one by one. No one questions that you can defeat each member in combat. But first you have to find them, and even using your epic skill ranks and magic, that will take time. While you do that, they're going to notice that you are killing them off one by one. They are going to start blowing up a major building full of important people each time one of their members dies, just to test your resolve. They will spread out, and start using their resources to stop you. If they find your loved ones, you are going to spend a lot of time rescuing them. They are going to start using eldritch machines to try and blow you to smithereens, and even if it doesn't work, thousands will suffer because of it. Eventually, they are going to place you in a lose-lose situation unless you leave them alone. Ultimately, epic or not, you are going to run into a issue that your epic powers won't let you deal with, and you are going to have to deal with it like a normal person. You are going to have to take a chance, and gamble on a long-shot that your powers can't improve the odds on. Being epic increases your power and gives you a lot of options. So does being 10th level. A matter of degree really, and one of the better things about Eberron is that you can simulate that "epic" feel without actually being so. But that actually has the effect of making epic levels in Eberron less overpowered, because once you have reached the point of being tougher than normal people (something that starts pretty soon in the setting) how far you go becomes less and less important.
Euangelion 05-28-05, 10:13 PM	:clap: What Gurv said.
Uller999 05-28-05, 11:24 PM	Did you mean "not feel like something is being compromised..." or they way it's written? I mean not feel like something is being compromised, sorry about that and yeah sure Epic doesn't mean you can just up and beat everything that comes at you with utter and complete ease, that would make the game boring. My problems with Epic in any setting but to a lesser extent Eberron are this. 1. power, I'm not worried about PCs acting like gods, my players are good enough to know that certain elements of the game will still challenge them and that its my job to check their arrogance and make the game still a challenge for them 2. empathy. Like I said I hate superman, I ****ing hate him, he's invulnerable, he's got half a dozen super powers and well he just seems flat to me as a character. I've read dozens of superman comics from dozens of different story lines I haven't found a way to connect to that character at all. Its the same for me with Gandalf, the good guy in any big budget blow em up action movie, and epic characters I've played epic characters in enviroments where they weren't uber but the ponderousness (is that even a word? perhaps ponderousity or ponderiferisness :P ) of combat slowed my desire for it. Also there reaches a point with your skills where you can more or less do pretty much anything with them. At 25th level I had diplomacy at a point where by the rules I could do things that I honestly consider idiotic but hey your Epic so sure you can do those things. Convincing a dragon your going to borrow his hoard and return it? yeah no problem. So it just took the steam out of it for me. Its different if I brought my character up to that level through months or years of play than we does rediculous things at least its vindication for the hard work and I don't notice the absuridity as much. I need a spice of realism in my characters in order to really role-play them and with Epic I find that much harder. Plus I usually don't play big combat oriented characters and social interaction skills are already hard to adjucate as is, it gets worse with Epic.
Edymnion 05-29-05, 12:36 AM	Its not that fun to be a farmers pitted against a potential dry season.As much as I agree with this, I can't help but say two words. Harvest Moon. Yes, being a farmer pitted against a potential dry season can actually be surprisingly fun to play :P
Gurv 05-29-05, 01:39 AM	My problems with Epic in any setting but to a lesser extent Eberron are this. 1. power, I'm not worried about PCs acting like gods, my players are good enough to know that certain elements of the game will still challenge them and that its my job to check their arrogance and make the game still a challenge for them 2. empathy. Like I said I hate superman, I ****ing hate him, he's invulnerable, he's got half a dozen super powers and well he just seems flat to me as a character. I've read dozens of superman comics from dozens of different story lines I haven't found a way to connect to that character at all. Its the same for me with Gandalf, the good guy in any big budget blow em up action movie, and epic characters I've played epic characters in enviroments where they weren't uber but the ponderousness (is that even a word? perhaps ponderousity or ponderiferisness :P ) of combat slowed my desire for it. Also there reaches a point with your skills where you can more or less do pretty much anything with them. At 25th level I had diplomacy at a point where by the rules I could do things that I honestly consider idiotic but hey your Epic so sure you can do those things. Convincing a dragon your going to borrow his hoard and return it? yeah no problem. So it just took the steam out of it for me. Its different if I brought my character up to that level through months or years of play than we does rediculous things at least its vindication for the hard work and I don't notice the absuridity as much. I need a spice of realism in my characters in order to really role-play them and with Epic I find that much harder. Plus I usually don't play big combat oriented characters and social interaction skills are already hard to adjucate as is, it gets worse with Epic. Just to make it clear: I'm not arguing with you. Some people like epic games, some people don't. I am just trying to illustrate that epic games can work in Eberron, if epic is something you enjoy. Your first point seems incomplete. You said that one of your problems with epic in any setting (but to a lesser extent Eberron) is power. But then you state that you are not worried about it because your players are good enough to know better. You didn't say what you problem with power is. Your second point is a good one. If you have a hard time empathizing with a certain type of character, then roleplaying them is difficult. Again, it is a matter of taste. I like playing high level characters so I can imagine what they can do during their downtime. I'm not as interested in how quickly an epic character can destroy a herd of tarrasque as I am in thinking about how he does things day-to-day. I also hate Superman, for several of the same reasons as you (and because I know that if I had been him I could have done it much better); it seems hard to understand why he is having such a hard time of it. But I did find some interesting moments in the Lois & Clark series, where you actually see more of him as Clark than you did of him as Superman. The only redeeming factor of the early Superman was that he was challenged by things. Whether it was by some nutcase who found a way to distract him with something else (usually by tying Lois to a train track or something similarly cliché) or simply taking advantage of his overly strict Code of Conduct, there was always something for Superman to struggle with. In a way, every problem is a roleplaying problem with someone who is beyond being challenged physically. The skills are a bit of a problem at epic levels. But most of them scale upwards reasonably well. And it is all in the description. You can describe the actions of a 10th level character so that they sound "over the top", but you can also tone down the effect of an epic characters just by not mentioning what could have been. If a character has to jump over a 20 foot pit, and gets a 52 on his check, then he makes it. No need to mention that he could have gone further, or that he could have done it from a standing start. If the player feels the need to do that sort of thing, then he is obviously not into the game concept I am talking about here. Also, many checks are opposed by other checks, and if you are facing someone of your own level, things even out. I would never have let an epic character "borrow" a dragon's hoard. Firstly, I would oppose that with a Sense Motive check, with all kind of circumstance bonuses. And second, I don't think that the DM should allow checks to do the clearly impossible ("impossible" being a term that varies based on the type of game you are running; since we are trying to keep it close to 'real', we should stick with a strict interpretation). Nothing says that the DM has to even place "the dragon give you his hoard" on the list of possible outcomes (on another side note, I strongly suggest Rich Berlew's Diplomacy Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html), since you mentioned adjucating social skills). But it's a simple matter of taste. An epic game is completely different than a normal game, and I'm not saying otherwise. It changes the perspective of the game entirely. I just think that you are going to run an epic game, a mature one that revolves around more than just being "uber-powerful", that doing it in a setting like Eberron is better than doing it in one where "uber" is important. Being "uber" in Eberron isn't important, as it just isn't what is needed to solve the problems. So having it isn't as game-altering as it appears. Then again, there is that nagging logic of "if it isn't that important, then why not settle for something more reasonable"? And there is nothing wrong with doing that, since Eberron makes it so neat and easy to play lower levels. I am just saying "It can be done". Not that it is for everyone, or even for me.
treehouse916 05-29-05, 02:43 AM	I read a discussion some time ago on another board about getting an epic level campaign started. The DM in question didn't want to spend years and years cultivating a party to the epic levels, but at the same time, he/she was concerned that simply plopping a quartet of 21st level characters in a campaign world would be unrealistic, and that the players wouldn't be attached to their characters (because their lives up to that point weren't ever actually experienced and played out). There were numerous suggestions, but the best among those (in my opinion) was to do a 'highlights prequel'. A highlights prequel is a set of adventures that moves a party from 1st level to whatever the target level for the campaign is (in this case, we'll say 21st level) at a relatively quick pace, only providing the highlights of their ascension and skipping levels and even years in the process. For example, if you were doing an epic campaign focusing on the return of the daelkyr, you might start off your highlights prequel with an adventure detailing the party's formation as a mercenary unit in the Last War. Run an adventure or two where they fight in grand, chaotic battles against Darguun hordes and Droamites. Skip ahead a few years to a short scene where the party first hears about the events in Cyre on the Day of Mourning. There is no combat in this scene, but they get a bit of foreshadowing that will eventually link the Mourning to cultists of the Dragon Below. A few years after that, the party is 7th level and the Treaty of Thronehold has been signed. They have to find new ventures to maintain their profit margins, and they are eventually hired by mystics in the Shadow Marches who call themselves Gatekeepers to guard a rather mundane cave at all costs. The task becomes quite terrifying when they are attacked by strange aberrations hell-bent on getting past them into the cave, culminating in their first encounter with a mind flayer. A few weeks after that adventure ends, the mystics let them know (with a grave note in their voice) that the cave was infiltrated after they left, and something important was taken or destroyed. Still years later, the party is 13th level. They have worked with the Gatekeepers on several other occasions, and they have learned much about their terrible, thankless duties. The party is once again tasked with guarding one of the seals (they are no longer mercenaries - at this point in the campaign they have become Key Players, and they are acting for the greater good more than anything else). This time, the daelkyrs send an even more terrible foe - a beholder assaults the party at their post, along with a horde of other aberrations. The party barely manages to stay alive, and several of their foes manage to slip by and destroy the seal. Skip to 17th level. The year is 1011 YK, and the party has been moving all around Khorvaire for nearly two decades, desperately trying (and failing) to safeguard the seals that have kept Xoriat at bay for so long. They learn that the daelkyr have finally located the last seal, and are sending one of their own to personally see that it is destroyed. The forces levied against the party are once again overwhelming, and after a fierce battle, the daelkyr manages to break their line of defense and destroy the final seal. They kill this particular lord of madness, though they know it is only a matter of time before a second Age of Madness envelopes the entire world. So, in four or five relatively short adventures (with some history highlights and character progression sprinkled in between sessions), you move a party from 1st level to 21st level, covering several important events (all revolving around the epic plot) while at the same time establishing character relationships and whatnot. Hope this helped.
Uller999 05-29-05, 04:08 AM	I feel that I aduequatley explained my stance on power in epic, my problem in regards to power has to do with absurdity, and having played epic I find the skills don't scale all that well perhaps in your games they have in mine they haven't and from most of the people I know that have played epic it hasn't either. I've read Rich Burlow's alternate rules for diplomacy I still don't like diplomacy rules being that formalized and so they will be house-ruled in my game. Again the difference between balance check of 30 and a skill check of 60 can't be helped by desciption, on a 30 you are perhaps balancing on a rolling rock in the middle of an avlanche taking place on a moving city, on a check of 60 you are "balancing on a cloud" one at least seems somewhat exceptable the other I can't help but see absurdly powerful. And yeah if you house rule all the epic skills checks than they work great, so no borrowing dragon hoards since that would be "impossible" even though you have a +60 diplomacy check and all but that seems to punish a player for investing skills if they can't do the rediculous thing so I suppose I have trouble seeing where that line is drawn. In the descriiption of epic diplomacy comprable examples so beats me what to go with. Its not the little things that are the problems it when a player can do huge things that its just drops into the realm of absurd and when skills can dicatate NPC reactions its just goes downhill from there. Especially for social interaction since odds are you won't interacting with nearly many high-level NPCs, especially in Eberron, as you would in other settings. Its why I avoid epic, all I was saying here and above is that Epic is funtional in Eberron more than any other campaign but not good that's all and yeah if you have the proper people than its alright but for role-playing purposes I think doesn't fit the bill, I mean seriously how are you gonna role-play somebody who has an intelligence of 55 and it be reasonable. I know one might say, "the same way you role-play someone with an intellegence of 6" but it just seems far-fetched at epic levels, easier to do what is at least ground in fact a little bit.
Uller999 05-29-05, 04:10 AM	I read a discussion some time ago on another board about getting an epic level campaign started. The DM in question didn't want to spend years and years cultivating a party to the epic levels, but at the same time, he/she was concerned that simply plopping a quartet of 21st level characters in a campaign world would be unrealistic, and that the players wouldn't be attached to their characters (because their lives up to that point weren't ever actually experienced and played out). There were numerous suggestions, but the best among those (in my opinion) was to do a 'highlights prequel'. A highlights prequel is a set of adventures that moves a party from 1st level to whatever the target level for the campaign is (in this case, we'll say 21st level) at a relatively quick pace, only providing the highlights of their ascension and skipping levels and even years in the process. For example, if you were doing an epic campaign focusing on the return of the daelkyr, you might start off your highlights prequel with an adventure detailing the party's formation as a mercenary unit in the Last War. Run an adventure or two where they fight in grand, chaotic battles against Darguun hordes and Droamites. Skip ahead a few years to a short scene where the party first hears about the events in Cyre on the Day of Mourning. There is no combat in this scene, but they get a bit of foreshadowing that will eventually link the Mourning to cultists of the Dragon Below. A few years after that, the party is 7th level and the Treaty of Thronehold has been signed. They have to find new ventures to maintain their profit margins, and they are eventually hired by mystics in the Shadow Marches who call themselves Gatekeepers to guard a rather mundane cave at all costs. The task becomes quite terrifying when they are attacked by strange aberrations hell-bent on getting past them into the cave, culminating in their first encounter with a mind flayer. A few weeks after that adventure ends, the mystics let them know (with a grave note in their voice) that the cave was infiltrated after they left, and something important was taken or destroyed. Still years later, the party is 13th level. They have worked with the Gatekeepers on several other occasions, and they have learned much about their terrible, thankless duties. The party is once again tasked with guarding one of the seals (they are no longer mercenaries - at this point in the campaign they have become Key Players, and they are acting for the greater good more than anything else). This time, the daelkyrs send an even more terrible foe - a beholder assaults the party at their post, along with a horde of other aberrations. The party barely manages to stay alive, and several of their foes manage to slip by and destroy the seal. Skip to 17th level. The year is 1011 YK, and the party has been moving all around Khorvaire for nearly two decades, desperately trying (and failing) to safeguard the seals that have kept Xoriat at bay for so long. They learn that the daelkyr have finally located the last seal, and are sending one of their own to personally see that it is destroyed. The forces levied against the party are once again overwhelming, and after a fierce battle, the daelkyr manages to break their line of defense and destroy the final seal. They kill this particular lord of madness, though they know it is only a matter of time before a second Age of Madness envelopes the entire world. So, in four or five relatively short adventures (with some history highlights and character progression sprinkled in between sessions), you move a party from 1st level to 21st level, covering several important events (all revolving around the epic plot) while at the same time establishing character relationships and whatnot. Hope this helped. This is brilliant by the way, I think I will do this when I want players to start at not 1st level, it'll help gel the party and foreshadow future events.
Edymnion 05-29-05, 03:04 PM	Yes, hitting the highlights is a valid middle of the road. Set it up so that its a good battle, and have them gain a level after every session. That way you can spend time leveling them up and getting to know them, but you don't have to spend any real amount of time at each level.
drasticale 05-29-05, 05:43 PM	I've read Rich Burlow's alternate rules for diplomacy I still don't like diplomacy rules being that formalized and so they will be house-ruled in my game. Again the difference between balance check of 30 and a skill check of 60 can't be helped by desciption, on a 30 you are perhaps balancing on a rolling rock in the middle of an avlanche taking place on a moving city, on a check of 60 you are "balancing on a cloud" one at least seems somewhat exceptable the other I can't help but see absurdly powerful. Epic characters should be able to take full advantage of their skill checks... But, you have to oppose them with equally epic NPC's... So, a sense motive has to be huge to oppose them. And if they aren't dealing with powerful NPC's, those NPC's should have little to offer them. Differences between 30 and 60 might be huge, but what happens when you just don't roll? Since you can't botch a skill roll, and if you can make that chasm with taking a 1, why not just hop the chasm? At Epic levels, you've earned those skill points (Literally if you've worked you way to it, and figuratively if you started Epic). Use them... Eberron is a realistic setting where the amount of power you use is specifically determined by the setting you are in. If no one is nearby, you unleash everything you have... If not, and you are even semi-'good', you have to check your power levels... Sharn is not the place for an Epic Wizard duel, and even if the other guy doesn't mind hurling fireballs, you have to figure a way to deal with him... Even if it is just counterspelling till your fighter friends can deal with him. Skill checks become less useful to Epic characters though, because of the items they can amass that can do it for them. Who needs a jump check when you can fly? Who needs a balance, or a climb check, when you can by slippers that do the same? Like was said before, the challenge of Epic is taking a 'Clark Kent' approach. You might be utterly powerful, but if too many people start learning you have the power to move mountains... they'll start fearing their own positions of power. You may be powerful, but your wife isn't... And if the DM takes this approach, he had best be ready to deal with a character that could level a city in revenge... So, Epic in Eberron is about threats, not only to you but everything you hold dear. It's about not being hunted down by the machinations of the Daelkyr, and the limitless resources of the Rajah. You may be able to decimate an organization, but if someone learns of your power, you aren't going to survive long. In essence, Epic in Eberron is almost like becoming a superhero, with all the perks; and disadvantages... If someone finds out, best be hiding Lois, and Mary Jane... Cause half the world is out to get you, and the other half is too weak to help.
Uller999 05-30-05, 08:28 AM	right I understand why epic is the way it is, but for a role-playing game their reached a point in powerscale where I just don't have as much fun with my character. In Eberron if you are 30th level your gonna be the only mortal type character that is that powerful that isn't a villain or foil. Sure you're supposed to be that powerful but it still just strikes me as absurdly powerful. I'll say this again, epic in Eberron works better than epic in any other campaign world except for Planescape but Epic for me unless in planescape is always just going to fall a bit flat. ...and I hate starting at epic but that's a personal thing is all.
Just another user 05-30-05, 08:57 AM	I've read Rich Burlow's alternate rules for diplomacy I still don't like diplomacy rules being that formalized and so they will be house-ruled in my game. Again the difference between balance check of 30 and a skill check of 60 can't be helped by desciption, on a 30 you are perhaps balancing on a rolling rock in the middle of an avlanche taking place on a moving city, on a check of 60 you are "balancing on a cloud" one at least seems somewhat exceptable the other I can't help but see absurdly powerful. Well, that is because they are supposed to be, you know, Epic, that is the stuff legends are made, the bard that sing so well to make even stones cries, the scout with a step so light that can walk over a spiderweb without broke it or the thief so good that it can steal even thing that are not ever there. :D After all to have a chance to roll a dc60 balance you had to be at least 30-40th level and that is not exactly small change. BTW you made an error the DC to balance over a cluod is not 60, it is 120. :D now it should be a little more believable.
Areador 05-31-05, 01:18 PM	I think at the time it's cool to have an Epic Eberron campaing but it is vital for a good game that you start from the start - at least in my case. The basic reason is for your players and you to get to know the world town after town, city after city, adventure after adventure and etc. I have a campaing that started a few moths ago(sorry if i'm not too lyric in english - not my native language) and I'm doing well cuz one of the players stoped to play and now I use his NPC as the villain, witch i think the guys liked as a twist of the story ( accept the cleric, the NPC took his hand off and now an artifacer made him a Shield-o-hand thing that's made out of plazma and jagged pieces of metal floating in the plazma ). After they defeat the gal(villain), she'll have a second go as a lich or vamp ( not sure yet ) and then they're going Epic if they want (At the time i'm thinking on something envolving the Qouri and the Kalashtar or a veeeery deep Mournland dungeon thingy). I think the only way not to like Eberron is to start a Epic adventure missing all the low-lvl fun! In a few years from now i guess Eberron will be well known and the "start from 20+ Epic" won't be a bad thing