Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bridgetsdad 07-23-04, 09:42 AM	I know that this is way premature (Eberron has only been out a month) but I was curious about something - and figured I would share my curiosity. Eberron seems to be a "low-powered" world - with most of the important NPC's being of mid to lower levels and the PC's being the ones who become the greatest heroes in the land (unlike the Forgotten Realms where regardless of how powerful one becomes - there is always at least a handful of NPC's waiting around to kick you butt). I remember reading Kenzer and Co's Kingdom of Kalamar setting and it specifically states that Kalamar does not readily support Epic Level PC's (or NPC's) - however, Eberron makes no such refference. So, I am curious, what would, could or should happen if a PC becomes Epic in Eberron? I figure that a 17th+ level PC would be one of the most remarkable characters in the setting - never mind what a 22nd level wizard or cleric would be. Fully knowing that this is a premature topic (I seriously doubt that it has actually happened in a campaign yet) but what do people think would happen if a party reached Epic levels? Again just curiuos - discuss amoungst yourselves. Cheers!
EvilDrPuma 07-23-04, 10:53 AM	From what I've read of Keith Baker's remarks, you're correct that a 17th-level character would be rather remarkable, at least in the present age of Eberron. The same remarks make it clear enough to me that, although the Eberron book is written with 1st-20th level characters in mind, there have been any number of loopholes designed into the setting to support epic play. The daelkyr, the quori, and the dragons all present threats or opportunities well suited for epic characters. Imagine what it means if the Chamber decides that your characters are the very incarnation of some vital provision of the Prophecy and must be "encouraged" to fulfill their destiny, or if the Eldeen seals that keep Xoriat from becoming coterminous were actually broken, or if the characters were to become the linchpin of a Sarlonan rebellion against the Inspired and their Quori masters. These kinds of plots are not really 5th-level stuff. Keith Baker has also suggested that in a setting meant to encourage recurring mastermind villains, leveling up your characters' nemeses so they continue to represent an 'ultimate challenge' is a perfectly legitimate tactic. An epic-level Vol or Lord of Blades is reasonable for high-level or epic characters, and the threats they represent can be scaled up as characters advance.
nightchilde-2 07-23-04, 12:58 PM	IMC, when the epic levels thing happens, the characters will, by then, be virtual legends on Eberron. I could easily see epic adventures taking place out on the planes or against some of the biggies of the Eberron setting, be it Vol, the Lord of Blades or some recurring villain. I can't wait for one of my PCs to take the Archmage PrC..think of the renown he would be saddled with. :D
StinkyNutz 07-23-04, 01:17 PM	This is the one thing I love about Eberron. The fact that there isnt any Elminster or uber npc's running around all over the place. It makes it so that the players can become the legends, they can save and help shape the world in which they live, instead of just being some guys following around in someone elses footprints (ie "you're badass, but you're no Drizzit"). And with an entire insland full of dragons who may or may not like what the characters do, another island full of powerful psionics who want to rule the whole world, aaaaaannnnnd another "lost" island full of giants and ancient magic....theres plenty for epic level characters to do. Throw in worrying about the last war starting up again and everyone looking to the "great heroes" for help with everything from "my crops wont' grow" to "a demon ate my baby", its perfect! Cant wait until my player reach that, going to be a fun trip.
Sidious 07-23-04, 05:09 PM	... I am going to have to use the phrase "A demon ate my baby" at some point in my campaign.
MarkB 07-23-04, 05:24 PM	Originally posted by Sidious ... I am going to have to use the phrase "A demon ate my baby" at some point in my campaign. Suddenly I'm tempted to play a werewolf bard who plays in a band called Demons Ate my Baby
ChrisTheS 07-24-04, 05:31 PM	And, if all else fails... have the world be invaded by the starfaring armies of the Emperor Mezzenbone seeking to bring another world under the talon of the galactic Dragon Empire :) See how their Khyber-enhanced swords stand up under a bombardment by orbital turbolasers... I'd actually like to do this in a game someday. But then, I'm evil :schemes:
Jaremy Rykker 07-24-04, 05:52 PM	Originally posted by ChrisTheS And, if all else fails... have the world be invaded by the starfaring armies of the Emperor Mezzenbone seeking to bring another world under the talon of the galactic Dragon Empire :) See how their Khyber-enhanced swords stand up under a bombardment by orbital turbolasers... I'd actually like to do this in a game someday. But then, I'm evil :schemes: Actually, on that note, have you ever played the Dragonstar Setting? It is sort of exactly what your were talking about, and I think would fit in beautifully with what you described. It is made by Fantasy Flight Games, and as I understand it, they have recently finished publishing a version of the DMG and MM that are more specifically designed for that setting as it is somewhat different for a number of reasons. I'm a character in a Dragonstar campaign, and I've had some fun moments, and gotten some nice house rules implented thanks to a bit of bending the rules. Suppressive fire five feet away from the enemy. Let's just state that in an impressive feat, I loaded in area of 40 3.07mm rounds into the sub-boss. Flat-out annihalated him, so the DM made a rule that I couldn't use suppressive fire at any sort of close range (i.e. less than point-blank shot). Check it out though, because if that is what you want to try, you've found exactly what Dragonstar is. Sort of a cool campaign setting, and it seems exactly what you want. Going on, I'd like to say that by the point that the characters are getting into the teens in the Eberron world, they are starting to become the heroes of the world. By the time they get close to twenty, they become living legends. I love this idea, and love the campaign setting to go with it. Perfectly set up for this, and it seems to stress that the world doesn't necessarily rely on high-powered characters. Almost all magic use is low-level, and yet they use it extremely effectively.
ChrisTheS 07-26-04, 12:10 AM	Obviously I know about Dragonstar, hence my reference to 'Dragon Empire' and 'Emperor Mezzenbone' :P
Lorehammer 07-26-04, 04:47 AM	Originally posted by EvilDrPuma From what I've read of Keith Baker's remarks, you're correct that a 17th-level character would be rather remarkable, at least in the present age of Eberron. The same remarks make it clear enough to me that, although the Eberron book is written with 1st-20th level characters in mind, there have been any number of loopholes designed into the setting to support epic play. The daelkyr, the quori, and the dragons all present threats or opportunities well suited for epic characters. Imagine what it means if the Chamber decides that your characters are the very incarnation of some vital provision of the Prophecy and must be "encouraged" to fulfill their destiny, or if the Eldeen seals that keep Xoriat from becoming coterminous were actually broken, or if the characters were to become the linchpin of a Sarlonan rebellion against the Inspired and their Quori masters. These kinds of plots are not really 5th-level stuff. Well, I sort of have a problem with the whole idea that the world has no (or few) high-powered NPCs. If that were true, then why don't all of these bad powerful demon-types take over the world BEFORE all of our characters reach 25th level and make it more difficult for them? If the Quori are going to take over the world, then they take over the world. The whole idea seems a little too contrived to me, and I don't like "loopholes." I'll take the good stuff out of the setting, and ignore the "game-balance" and "tone" stuff. A setting shouldn't have a tone, and trying to force one by repeating the "pulp" mantra over and over throughout the literature, doesn't make it so. To each his own, of course. It's like eating Lobster: Eat the meat. Throw the shell away. Tamale is optional.
Slayen 07-26-04, 05:42 AM	The Quori are working subtly (which is good as it should keep the Dragons of their back until they are ready) The Evil Dragons are keeped in check by the Good Dragons for the most part. The Lords of Dust...... well I haven't the foggiest idea as far as they are concerned. They seem more interested in causing general chaos, mayhem and suffering at the moment than taking over. And lastly, the daelkyr, along with most of the more powerful demons are traped in Khyber at the moment.
JBW 07-26-04, 09:50 AM	Just as Slayen pointed out some of what is holding back the "big-Evils", there could be just as many thinkgs holding back powerful forces of Good. Simply saying that they are not there so the PCs can fill those roles is idiotic. Better to have the powerful forces of Good there so they can step aside for the PCs when necessary or so that the PCs can tip the balance as they grow in power. The idea that evil is lazy and waits until the PCs can give it a fair fight is stupid. Jay
EvilDrPuma 07-26-04, 10:58 AM	Originally posted by Lorehammer Well, I sort of have a problem with the whole idea that the world has no (or few) high-powered NPCs. If that were true, then why don't all of these bad powerful demon-types take over the world BEFORE all of our characters reach 25th level and make it more difficult for them? If the Quori are going to take over the world, then they take over the world. The whole idea seems a little too contrived to me, and I don't like "loopholes." I'll take the good stuff out of the setting, and ignore the "game-balance" and "tone" stuff. A setting shouldn't have a tone, and trying to force one by repeating the "pulp" mantra over and over throughout the literature, doesn't make it so. To each his own, of course. It's like eating Lobster: Eat the meat. Throw the shell away. Tamale is optional. Okay, the world has few high-powered NPCs, and the Quori or the daelkyr or the Lords of Dust could take real advantage of that...if they were ready to make their move, and if they understood that there are few high-powered opponents out there. The second point is vital: "high-powered NPC" is a metagame concept, not a basic concept in intelligence-gathering within the setting. Just because you or I know there is a power gap doesn't mean the characters within the setting see it that way. As to the first point: the Lords of Dust are less an organized faction with a grand scheme than a cosmic anarchists' chat group; there is no "they" in a very real sense. The Quori are building toward the position they want to be in to make their move, but they aren't there yet and may not be able to accelerate their plans to take full advantage of any power vacuum whether they perceive it or not. The daelkyr are sealed away, for the most part, and may not be the ones who make the decision about when they can next impact Eberron in force. In short, I think there are reasons why the big bads don't just walk over the world, high-level NPCs or no, and they have been designed into the setting well enough to make sense to me. Your mileage, as always, may vary.
aelryinth 07-26-04, 04:20 PM	Also keep in mind that because there's not any high level people around NOW doesn't mean there wasn't in the past. The high levels are gone. How did they die? Well, assassination and battlefields, by some. But others, died just like the PC's might someday...as heroes. IN doing so, they smote the forces doing Bad Stuff such blows as will take them time and effort to recover, spoiling generations of planning and forcing the enemy to retrench and redraw. The mad scramble for power amidst the Last War has also pitted all these organizations against one another for scraps of power. It's doubtful the qu'ori are working with the Lords of Dust...the Chamber sure isn't and is around in force...The Aurum and the Blood of Vol are likely at odds...the personal ambitions of royalty and the churches can turn carefully crafted events on their ears...all of these can easily combine to make power buildups maddeningly frustrating in the short term. Lastly, be aware that the real schemers and planners take a VERY long view. the Lords of Dust patiently plan across millenia. So do the Daelkyr...the qu'ori took a thousand years to insidiously penetrate Rielda. The Chamber watches ALL of the prophecy unfold..the eternal Deathless of the Elven plot across elven generations. Little setbacks don't disturb these forces. They don't scramble and hunger for power in the same way people do. There is no 'urgency'...there is slow, reliable, proven tactics used again and again for a long-term strategy, opposed by the other ancient forces. Many of these plans are now gone and derailed by the uncontrolled chaos of the Last War, opposing forces, and the actions of individual heroes at the right place and time. Now, it is a time for new heroes to step up, to accelerate to power in what must seem like an eyeblink to many of the forces above, and add their own confusion to the mess above by dint of raw power and the ability to carve a legend across the world. Whether or not the heroes can be true Legends, whose deeds will continue to plague and discomfit the forces above for millenia after they are dead and gone, is something for Epic Levels to determine. In the short term, they can certainly smash the carefully laid plans to sundry and gone...and had better do it, because those plans are designed to go off despite the opposition of the standing forces, NOT to withstand the sudden out-of-nowhere might of Heroes riding out to save the world with foolish notions and high ideals once again... ==Aelryinth
JBW 07-26-04, 11:57 PM	The high levels are gone. How did they die? They don't. Killing a single high-level character requires far more than killing off scores of low-level characters. Yet no one is suggesting that there is a shortage of 2nd-5th level characters following the Last War. Besides that, there is simply no good reason that high-level characters would not find a way to cheat death. Whether through clones, raise dead/resurrection, reincarnation, or even psionic methods such as True Mindswitch for those Kalashtar out there, high-level characters will survive. To make any excuse against this is to seperate PCs from the rest of the world, and that is simply unacceptable to me. Sorry, but the setting fails utterly to accommadate high-level characters to my satisfaction. Thankfully, I take the time to rewriote every NPC that I use, so high-level characters are still as plentiful in the setting as in any other. Thus, Eberron has survived what I consider one of its creator's greater follies and remains fit for my use. Jay
Ashaman Joe 07-27-04, 12:55 AM	In other words, you made Eberron another Forgotten Realms... The relative lack of high level NPCs makes Eberron unique because it lets the players be the heroes. You could argue that in the wake of the last war, the powerful evil powers are moving in on Khorvaire... luckily, the players are there to oppose them. Sure, they may start weak, but as they adventure, they grow in power until they can oppose evil. Not Eliminster Clone #1, not Drizzit Clone #2758, the players. They are special, they are the last bastion against evil- and that's what makes the setting so fun. You are the hero, not some loser who goes into dungeons and mugs helpless kobolds. :)
JBW 07-27-04, 02:40 AM	In other words, you made Eberron another Forgotten Realms... Is that how you see it? I guess I'm not certain why you draw this conclusion. As I see it, in FR, the problem is not the existance of high-powered characters, but instead the degree of freedom those characters have. Many of the high-powered characters have few, if any, demands upon them. They don't really have the degree of "tied-down" involvement in the setting that I would expect one of such power to have developed. Instead, most are allowed to simply run around as Epic "knight errants" and this is where the problem is found. We also have a few that have connections, but even then, these connections are typically so lax as to be nonexistant. The Simbul should have 110% of her time taken up dealing with the Thayan menace to her nation, but she always seems up to a quick jaunt... The relative lack of high level NPCs makes Eberron unique because it lets the players be the heroes. That's hardly unique. I would dare say that every setting of every RPG makes an attempt to have the PCs be something truly special. This is seldom accomplished simply by making the PCs more powerful than NPCs. If, once again you are referring to the FR problem of above, consider that my NPCs typically have roles that occupy much of their time. If the PCs come into their area of influence, then the NPC may help or hinder them, but these NPCs have their own challenges to face and their own goals. Sometimes the PCs may stand with or against them, and sometimes it's better if they simply remain apart. This choice is not made by the NPC in most cases, but instead by the PCs. It is the PCs that have the freedom to act (or not) that makes them into heroes, not the fact that they are more capable than the NPCs. Jay
Brastan 07-27-04, 03:48 AM	Originally posted by JBW They don't. Killing a single high-level character requires far more than killing off scores of low-level characters. I hartly disagree with you there. I have had the misfortune of running with DM who held no punches and even threw in some mean ones during what my friends have called "The rush to Epic." I cannot began to count the number of times our party fighter has died in combat. This not a lack of his skills or equipment but the staggering forces aired before him. There are many more ways to kill an epic-level character then there are lower-level ones (with out being heavy handed). Take a good read though the epic hand book and look carefully at some of the stuff the monsters can do. And don't forget about monster advancement. In reference to numbers, take in context, lots and lots of high-level goblins can still kill a few high-level PCs. Yet no one is suggesting that there is a shortage of 2nd-5th level characters following the Last War. That is so and for a good reason, there still low-level. Plus they probably won't gain many additionally levels as the PCs progress. Sorry, but the setting fails utterly to accommadate high-level characters to my satisfaction. Read carefully, look closely and you can glimpse the epic opportunities. They just don't have stat blocks yet. Thankfully, I take the time to rewriote every NPC that I use, so high-level characters are still as plentiful in the setting as in any other. Good, no one said you shouldn't. In fact that's great. However you should also look for some of the new threats that appear in the setting. Thus, Eberron has survived what I consider one of its creator's greater follies and remains fit for my use. Jay I guess you were not here for the pains about what they had to cut from the core book just to get it printed at a reasonable cost to Wizards and us. There was a good portion left out. At least enough for another supplement or two plus web enhancements. Epic level Villainy in Eberron has be curtailed due to long standing safe guards. Read (don't skim) there Regions, Organizations, and the time line sections before make judgments about Epic viability. That goes for the rest of you! My apologies Jay for using your comments as a vessel but there is Epic opportunity in Eberron, just unrealized. The lack of Good Guy high level NPC means there is a vacuum that must be filled, by the Player Characters. (Shutting up before I do more harm).
Kirsa 07-27-04, 04:15 AM	The way I see it, if Elminster and the others in FR were really overshadowing your characters than your DM and not the world was to blame. I have always styled my campaigns as "High-Adventure" , always tried to think of the PC's as larger than life, accomplishing impossible tasks against impossible odds. The rewards and accolades laid on them always reflected it. Were thier Giants in the Earth? Certainly, some helped, some hindered, mostly they sat back and watched. To say that there are not extemely powerful creatures in Eberron is incorrect, that they are all mired down I think is true for the most part. But it does seem that little to nothing is keeping the evil in the world in check, and no your band of 5th level PC's won't cut it. I set it against another world that for the most part had rather low level NPCs in the initial write-up, and my fave land - Birthright. What kept the incredible evils contained there? A massive amount of men ready to fight, and the powers of the realm spells. But there was something to stop them if they were to stir. Sure the Gorgon could take any land if they went toe to toe, but the list of allies, even other AS, that land would have in a hurry was impressive. The Demon wastes lists that 25% of it's 600,000 population are demons of one sort or another, think about that 150,000 demons sitting around. A being that could tap a tenth of that power would have 15000 demons to wage war with. Even a hundreth of that would give you 1500. By the lack of any real NPC's of power this is an incredible force of potential destruction. Yes, I can hear the arguements already - They are demons, no real organizational power, and the few that are organized, well, they are plotting (rakshasa) or are few (the Hags). At the same time however even the scheming Dust Lords would notice how little real power opposes them and quickly taking advange of it. I didn't see a whole lot of the +3 weapons it takes to bring down a Rakshasa, let alone a few at a time. Besides, demons (CE) are lead by strength, by fear, and by cruelty. Certainly there is 1 in the 150,000 who could rise up far enough to bring 150 (one thousandth!) of them out of the Wastes to raise some havoc in a well planned manner, or even more likely, someone to go in and bring them back out. The way I see the World as written is that it seems to be holding it's collective breath until the PCs are big enough to tackle it. And I don't see that as such a great way to run a campaign, especial this one, one that is supposed to have a constant flow of intrigue. For me, I will pop up Good NPC levels a bit, as an earlier post suggested to set the world in balance until the PC's can tip it. Kirsa
JBW 07-27-04, 05:48 AM	The way I see the World as written is that it seems to be holding it's collective breath until the PCs are big enough to tackle it. And I don't see that as such a great way to run a campaign, especial this one, one that is supposed to have a constant flow of intrigue. For me, I will pop up Good NPC levels a bit, as an earlier post suggested to set the world in balance until the PC's can tip it. Well said Kirsa. Jay
StinkyNutz 07-27-04, 12:26 PM	I always forget that during a game everyone walks around with their level, hp total, BAB, and equipment listed above their head for everyone else to read....silly me. Why not try a game where no one "knows" anyone elses level or abilities beforehand??? We'll call it....oh I don't know....how about roleplaying!!!!
Jaremy Rykker 07-27-04, 02:07 PM	Originally posted by Kirsa The way I see the World as written is that it seems to be holding it's collective breath until the PCs are big enough to tackle it. And I don't see that as such a great way to run a campaign, especial this one, one that is supposed to have a constant flow of intrigue. For me, I will pop up Good NPC levels a bit, as an earlier post suggested to set the world in balance until the PC's can tip it. Does it perhaps make a bit of sense that with a good tactical sense, a leader regardless of his level could harness incredible power. Honestly, you could bring me a party of epic-level characters, and it remains that a properly-trained army of low-level NPCs could defeat them. All I really have to do is to cross that damage threshold of 50HP a hit. That poor fighter has to charge to engage. While doing so, in area of 200 warriors with longbows use their readied action to attack. Say an average number of those roll a 20, which in this case is an automatic success, and only one actually makes the critical on average, we now have 22d8 damage inflicted on our charging fighter. On an average roll of 22d8, we inflict 99 damage, which is nearly twice the damage threshold. So, there alone we have with a modest force defeated the party's fighter. I forgot about it, but it seems the cleric charged with him, and passed that phase of the battle unscathed. He now comes up against a wall of warriors armed with shortswords and tower shields, behind which two rows of warriors armed with pikes are lined up and ready. The cleric is certainly able to cast some spells, but there is little doubt he too is overmatched with several hundred melee warriors and now 200 archer warriors. Going on, the rogue is vulnerable in the same way as the cleric or fighter, and the wizard is in grave danger from a properly executed mounted charge along with a complete combined attack. My point though is that high-level characters aren't needed to defend a nation. Everyday people can pull that one off if they cooperate. However, the player characters are the heroes of the world, and are needed to fight for and defend their causes, because there is a point where conventional arms are overwhelmed.
Kirsa 07-27-04, 04:36 PM	Jaremy Certainly it does make sense. This is what my earlier comment about Birthright was about. The horror stories of kobold bands taking down 16th level parties are both numerous, and in at least my Campaign, true. The other part of the equation though, is do you have enough cannon fodder, knowledge of your foe, morale, and preperation to make such a thing work out? I guess what I am getting at is that when I read the sourcebook, it strikes me that the war has been long, and all of the nations are weak, they have lost thier great heros, and yet the amount of evil in the world hasn't gone down that much. I don't know that epic characters are need to bring that back into some sort of detante, but a combination of a little leveling up and population increase would go a long way to help. An example is this quote "Barre Stonefist ... commands a small band of human and dwarf mercenaries bolstered by almost one hundred Karrnath skeletons" (Ft Bones pg 182) Now this is a good force, and well commanded are a force to be reckoned with. But at the same time versus an equal number of gnolls, it would be an even fight, and throw in a few of the afore mentioned demons and the battle goes down hill quickly. High level charaters are not he end all and be all to defending a nation, or even a cavern. They are however a part of the greater plan. I will take your example and twist it a bit. Instead of the lone high level party, what about a mid level party and thier own 100 fighters? or two mid level parties and 50 fighters? You also make the assumption that the fight is on open ground and fair, and that the 200 are the ones prepared for the fight. If that were not the case, well, how about a round of 16th level fireballs on your tents from mid air and invisible the night before the fight? One last think, unlike Stinky, I am not trying to troll here, but I do think that it deserves some thought as to how the world works. Kirsa PS for Stinky: (AKA feed the troll) Stink I am thinking like a role player here, one that is roleplaying the monsters. Your level etc. doesn't have to be tattooed on your head, not at all. But as a rakshasa, I can asume human shape, walk among you learning your ways. I can read thoughts at will, even through walls, , learning your mind "I sure wish I owned a magic sword", "The commander doesnt seem a much better fighter than me, and I am fresh off the farm!","I been through a lot, I know I am a better mage than this" and a few minds too strong for me to get into. A year of this, and 30 others like me would give a pretty good idea of the human world and it's abilities in general. Also you have a reputation, from your own tavern boasts, to your visible wealth over time, to the stories sung (or not) by the bards (Geez, do these human bards ever sing of any living heros?)
Lorehammer 07-27-04, 05:10 PM	Originally posted by Kirsa The way I see the World as written is that it seems to be holding it's collective breath until the PCs are big enough to tackle it. And I don't see that as such a great way to run a campaign, especial this one, one that is supposed to have a constant flow of intrigue. For me, I will pop up Good NPC levels a bit, as an earlier post suggested to set the world in balance until the PC's can tip it. That's exactly how I see it. Well stated.
ruleslawyer 07-27-04, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by Ashaman Joe In other words, you made Eberron another Forgotten Realms... The relative lack of high level NPCs makes Eberron unique because it lets the players be the heroes.Y'know, this attitude is really beginning to bug me not because I dislike Eberron's take on the PCs as heroes (I like it immensely), but because of the unjustified FR-bashing. The reason that the FR NPCs are so often seen as people with the potential to overshadow the PCs is really because of the novels. They're supposed to be background elements of the campaign, not YOUR campaign's heroes. The problem is that WotC recognized that there was money in producing novels featuring said folks as heroes, and so there it happened. I am in full agreement with Kirsa on this: The way I see it, if Elminster and the others in FR were really overshadowing your characters than your DM and not the world was to blame. I have always styled my campaigns as "High-Adventure" , always tried to think of the PC's as larger than life, accomplishing impossible tasks against impossible odds. The rewards and accolades laid on them always reflected it. Were thier Giants in the Earth? Certainly, some helped, some hindered, mostly they sat back and watched. That said, it'd be nice if we could merge this thread with the one here: How Does Khorvaire Survive? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=282728) That may address some of your concerns a little more squarely, JBW and Lorehammer. BTW, EvilDrPuma: That was a fabulous collection of epic-level adventure suggestions and points!
StinkyNutz 07-28-04, 06:25 PM	Kirsa has a thing for me...I can just feel it. ;) But anyways, if you read through the book (yes I mean cover to cover)...nowhere...and I do mean NOWHERE...does it state that there are pit fiends and such running around all over the place. It just depends on what type of demons/monsters you want to put in your game and at what hd. It should have become clear (well at least to me ) that Eberrron is entirely customizable, depending upon your tastes and ideas. A few low hd demons with some moderately powered rakasashas dont really threaten a whole continent. :D
perringaiden 07-29-04, 03:11 AM	Originally posted by JBW Thankfully, I take the time to rewriote every NPC that I use, so high-level characters are still as plentiful in the setting as in any other. Thus, Eberron has survived what I consider one of its creator's greater follies and remains fit for my use. Jay [/B] Age.... Excluding magic, dying of old age is the best reason why people aren't high levels. NPCs don't go up levels as fast as characters (and in 3rd Ed that's pretty fast) so a 10th level Warrior or Fighter is actually a very old veteran. If you go back and look at how in 2nd Ed and 1st Ed it took a very long time to get up any decent number of levels then you'd realise that the FR idea of 10 20th level characters per square mile is very unrealistic. I remember when King Azoun was an older man at 11th level. Eberron brings back that idea and it means that a player who starts at 1st level and moves all the way to 20th is that "one (or six) in a million person". Its something that makes you feel that bit more special than the average NPC. I for one am sick of having to fight 20th level NPCs around every corner in FR, and applaud Eberron for what you call a "greater folly".
Lorehammer 07-29-04, 04:26 AM	Well, let's look at that. Instead of assuming a range of 1-6 in a million, let's just assume 2 in a million who've reached 20th level. Odds are pretty good that if there are 2 in a million that have reached 20th level that there are 10 in a million that have reached 16th level, 8 in a million that have reached 17th level, 6 in a million that have reached 18th level, 4 in a million that have reached 19th level. All told, per million inhabitants, there ought to be just about 30 NPC's of 16th level and above. So, that means that Aundair should have 60 such NPC's, Breland should have 111, Darguun should have 24, Demon Wastes should hae about 15 (when you exclude demons), Droam should have 15, the Eldeen reaches should have 15, Karrnath should have 75, Lhazaar should have 15, The Mror Holds should have 21, the Mournland probably only has the Lord of Blades, Q'Barra should have 9, the Shadow Marches should have 15, the Talenta plains should have 12, Thrane should have 69, Valenar should have 2, and Zilargo should have 7. That's a total of about 450 high-level NPCs throughout Khorvaire. Presumably all of these, or nearly all of these, were killed during the Last War. I find that very unlikely, frankly, but let's go with that. How long does it take a PC to go from 1st to 20th level in Eberron time? Two years? Let's say it takes five times as long for NPCs to do it (I see no reason, personally, why they should take any longer). That means that by the year 1010 there should be 500+/- high-level (16+ levels) characters throughout Khorvaire. Now, the question is whether or not it is assumed that those 500 or so characters are pretty much all going to be created by the players of the ECS and maybe only a handful are actual NPCs. It's a very cool premise. But I still have trouble understanding why the demons and other bad guys are going to wait around for ten years before they take over. Same thing as in the "How does Khorvaire Survive" thread. If there were a campaign setting ripe for a "Living" system, it is ECS.
EberronJunkie 07-29-04, 05:09 AM	Forgotten realms if by far very different to Eberron, in FR you have the uber NPC'S they act as guides, plot twists and the like, aiding your PC's to get to uber-status. Eberron i think is more your level 1 to 15 romp, although as i have read in this post there is a vast amount of options you can do to go to at least level 30. granted this will make your pc's near god like figures, but even a level 30 fighter can be taken down by an army of crazed hooligans. And just think what would happen if you got planeshifted to xoriat and said hello to mister daelkyr and his posse! remember in DnD in any of their worlds, if you can imagine it, it can happen. Plus my level 5 bard, level 5 master inquisitive npc is awesome, hes evil! but don't tell my players, they haven't met him yet. ah the fun of being the DM.
JBW 07-29-04, 10:37 AM	Age.... Excluding magic, dying of old age is the best reason why people aren't high levels. NPCs don't go up levels as fast as characters This is a foolish assumption. There is nothing in the rules that suggests that NPCs are incapable of gaining levels as quickly - or perhaps even faster than - PCs. The only thing running contrary to this are the personal opinions of Hellcow, so I again will refer to this as the "writer's greater folly". Of course, if there were a built-in restriction that limited ALL advancement based upon time/age, then I'd have no problem with it. I'm sorry, but PCs are special only by what choices they make. I will never accept a world where they have some metaphysical ability to ignore the conventions followed by every other inhabitant of the same type unless the game world is specificaly centered on the idea (such as WW's Exalted). In D&D - including Eberron - a human PC is still a human, and is under the same rules as every other human. Simply being a PC does NOT make them special and above the normal conventions of their race/type - such as aging. The player's choices in how the character seeks his destiny MIGHT make the character special...but that is up to the player, NOT the setting. Jay
ondali 07-29-04, 12:12 PM	". Simply being a PC does NOT make them special " Well, that's too bad: only PC's have action points. By that rule, simply being a PC makes a character special. I could make the same NPC, even giving it more equipment, thereby disregarding the rules about NPC equipment, and the character would still be less special, because it has no actionpoints.
fizzbang 07-29-04, 12:56 PM	Besides that, there is simply no good reason that high-level characters would not find a way to cheat death. Whether through clones, raise dead/resurrection, reincarnation, or even psionic methods such as True Mindswitch for those Kalashtar out there, high-level characters will survive. There are plenty of reasons that the high-level characters have died: from the ancient druids that have turned themselves into trees in the Eldeen Reaches to the countless heroes on all sides that must have died in 100 years of warring, there are very few characters with high challenge ratings left. Although the ones that are left (and listed in the book) are mostly of the nefarious flavours, there are many, many reasons why they haven't made their move, yet. Some are waiting until everything is perfect and they have no chance of failure (Vol), some are still restrained through one force or another (Daelkyr), and some simply take their time as a matter of habit (Quori). Like many fantasy settings, there's a surplus of villains, and there's a definite market for some heroes! And what's more, because Eberron is so heavily focused on intrigue, and unexpected alliances, the various villains are just as likely to fight against each other as they would be to work together. Heroes may well be sponsored by small villains to fight against bigger villains. Some villains may not even be entirely villainous. It's this sort of constantly shifting allaince/enemy relationship between all of the poer factions that keeps everyone on their toes and ensures that no one side will be entirely winning. To make any excuse against this is to seperate PCs from the rest of the world, and that is simply unacceptable to me. I'm afraid that this goes against one of the central themes of the game: PCs are exceptional. This is supported primarily by the fact that they're the only ones who get action points, and (to a lesser degree) by the fact that they're the ones who can level indefinitely. It's a rather central theme of both pulp and fantasy settings, the core styles of Eberron. It's a little more awkward when you get into massive multiplayer systems (whether they're the "Living World" type or Online MMOGs), but it's still a common conceit in role playing games of all stripes. If you're still looking for high-level threats for PCs as they reach towards Epic levels, you can always advance some monsters or a recurring NPC. In fact, there's a lot to be said for taking a few of the setting's recurring villain NPCs and advancing them along with the players. Not only does it highlight their struggle against the backdrop of the world, you can advance the NPCs in directions that the PCs can't predict just by looking in the book! Fizzbang
JBW 07-29-04, 12:58 PM	Well, that's too bad: only PC's have action points. I don't use action points. I don't think that they are very well balanced in PC vs. NPC conflicts, and that balance is important to me. I likewse don't differentiate between PC and NPC wealth values. Saying that an NPC should have less gear simply because it is not under a player's control is silly. Jay
JBW 07-29-04, 01:03 PM	I'm afraid that this goes against one of the central themes of the game: PCs are exceptional. This is supported ... (to a lesser degree) by the fact that they're the ones who can level indefinitely This is most certainly not a fact. Show me in the D&D rules where it is noted that NPCs have level limits. This may be a convention that Hellcow enjoys, but it is by no means a fact nor a D&D rule. Jay
fizzbang 07-29-04, 01:16 PM	This is most certainly not a fact. Show me in the D&D rules where it is noted that NPCs have level limits. This may be a convention that Hellcow enjoys, but it is by no means a fact nor a D&D rule. It's repeated time and again by Baker in The Ask Keith Baker Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=259293), pretty much anytime that anyone asks why there are so few high-level NPCs in the setting. Beyond that, it's a definite factor in the setting, by virtue of the simple fact that there aren't that many high-level NPCs. No, it's not a D&D Corebook Rule Written In Stone, and there's no Gaming Police that'll kick down your door if you play differently. But it is one of the core themes of the setting, and changing that does mean you're playing in a world that has a substantially different feel. If you're okay with that, then more power to you and your game. Fizzbang
StinkyNutz 07-29-04, 01:25 PM	JBW, Role playing games are about the players and their effect on a certain story. If every shmoe (yes I actually said shmoe, so what) is just the same as the pc's, then whats the point of your games? You have a need for uber powerful NPC's to be running around all over the place to fight off the uber monsters you want to throw in your Eberrron campaign...thats fine...as it has been stated so many times its making my eyes bleed, Eberron is about customization...tailor it as you see fit. But one thing, it is far from broken and your obvious dislike of Hellcows opionions aside, play the game how you want!!!! You opinion is no more "right" then anyone elses (considering the fact that opinions are just that, only opinions). Quit whinning and run your game as you see fit...I personally wouldnt ever play in it (for some strange reason I like to think my character that I spend time on matters a bit more then some random shmoe), but thats the beauty of the game now isnt it? :D :D :D
debatedeus 07-29-04, 02:59 PM	I would Amen you stinky, but you laced that too negatively for my tastes. I have a couple of questions and responses to JBW. Before I get into those, I want to preface what I'm about to say: This is all my opinion. I run my game my way. I don't claim it is the right way. I don't claim that its the only way. I have reasonse for why I do what I do, and I'm always up for examining those reasons, but I do not hold hostility toward or look down on anyone who decides they want to do things differently. I am interested in their reasons, and may even get into a sprited debate about those reasons, but it is only because I want to get better as a DM. That said, here goes: 1.) Choices of PCs vs. NPCs. Can every NPC be a wizard if they want? What keeps some NPCs out of the class? Why would an NPC ever take an NPC class? Wouldn't that be selecting an intentionally weaker class, and who would do that? In my view, more than just choices seperate PCs vs. NPCs. I'm in the camp that PC's have more potential than NPCs. Why? Well for one, they just wouldn't be as interesting otherwise. I guess I do make the metaphysical judgement that the PCs have something going on inside them that makes them better than other people. They can choose to use that potential or not, and a harder working NPC can eventually get more powerful than a PC in my games, but all other things equal, a PC gets more bang for their buck than an NPC. Another reason I do this is because I am a very competitive person. If I always just make an NPC stronger I start to feel like I am 'competing' with the PCs, but that isn't the case. I'm the DM. I cannot just make the strongest possible characters all the time to trapse around my worlds. It takes the spotlight off my PCs, and when I'm DMing, I'll telling a story starring the group. Maybe these high level people are eeking around in the background doing things, I dunno. But in game, encounters with powerful NPCs are rare and cinematic. *edit: After a little further thought, one could argue that the choices a person makes determines their potential. A person becomes a Wizard instead of a Magewright because they choose to work hard, study at the books more, and learn very many spells. But how would you represent this difference?* 2.) Wealth issue. Do you let your PCs take all the treasure they can find off of a fallen NPC? If you equip them as well as you do with the PCs, do you have frequent encounters with NPCs? If so, how do you keep your PC's wealth levels from going nuts? 3.) What balance are you taking about between PC and NPC? That PCs and NPC opponents of equal level ought to have equal capacities? What about PCs and NPCs that do not oppose them? Personally, I avoid this explicitly because I don't like putting myself in that DM vs. Players mindset. If it comes down to a fight between two equally powerful forces then the fight is resovled by superior luck and/or tactics. No one can control luck without cheating so that means whoever wins has superior tactics. My PCs are all clever tacticians, but I can edge them out 9/10 times. In my game then, setting up an equal fight between PCs and NPCs thus usually means that I meant for the PCs to lose. I have more, but I don't have more time. I would love to continue the discussion, however.
Gurv 07-29-04, 03:48 PM	I'm sorry, but PCs are special only by what choices they make. Exactly. The choices they make (to adventure nonstop, to jump in and deal with every problem they see, etc.) is what makes them special. What bothers me is that if large numbers of NPCs are having the same ideas, what exactly is it again that makes the players special? For the record, I have played under a DM who was also under the impression that NPCs should be as cool as the players. To be honest, his game ended because...we just stopped going.
perringaiden 07-29-04, 06:45 PM	Originally posted by JBW This is most certainly not a fact. Show me in the D&D rules where it is noted that NPCs have level limits. This may be a convention that Hellcow enjoys, but it is by no means a fact nor a D&D rule. Jay You seem *really* obsessed with the rules. So here's one from the DMG. If you don't like a rule, change it, or don't use it. If you have the ECS, feel free to adjust the numbers. If you don't want to because the setting is just another set of *rules*, then I'd head off to a different setting, because many people here (as evidenced by this an other threads) like the opportunity to be special and have their character take part in major politics and the world. That is one thing I hate about places like FR, is that when you get to 20th, you're no different from many of the NPCs so why would they listen to you. If you get to 15th level in Eberron, you'd be like a national or international hero, not someone who still can't match the average high level NPC.
Stormwolf 07-30-04, 12:14 PM	I have been reading this thread for a little while and while I have only skimmed some of the responses I was wondering where does it say in the setting book that absolutely EVERY high level hero died? I know for a fact that it says they are gone, and I don't doubt that maybe 75% died during the war but that still leaves a significant number that could just be jaded after the war with a don't bother me attitude. If a beholder can be a phylosopher and turn neutral and study his and other's moral standing i think it likely that a hero could too. Thus in my opinion making him more heroic. Also JBW, your right it does not say that there are level limits on NPCs, but if you look at the middle ages which the D&D games are pseudo based on the average monthly earnings of the commoners is 3 gp a month, that is out of the book. I know this because I have 2 rules lawyers in my game. The reason that PCs have more money is because they take the risks required to get the reward. The average commoner may be a good man but he is not going to take on the Kobold raiders in the caves downstream by himself. Also on that note, earning xp which is in the book does go slower for most NPCs because they again do not take the risks involve to get it. A 20th level commoner is unheard of because he did not take on the threats involved to vault him into the high levels. Experts earn a bit more and get more xp for their dealings and aristocrats are more or less born to luxory, so why should they take risks? As the book does say at the beginning, ALL of these books are a DM option so, do what you will. No skin off my nose and if your players have fun that is the most important thing. As far as balance, it is important to me too. but Eberron is what you make it... you can balance the world without upping every NPCs levels. As I stated above, perhaps a number of heros did survive the last years of the war and they are tired of being the goto men of the kingdoms, so they are laying low somewhere, they may resurface when a huge continental threat exists. Until then they are taking a much deserved vacation.
StinkyNutz 07-30-04, 12:43 PM	Heres my one major gripe about just "making" high level npc's (and the exsistance of multiple ones in other settings): Never once did any of them ever have to roll a darn d20!!!....or pull off some superb rp'ing...in 30 or whatever levels did Drizzit or Elminster or any homemade uber npc ever have to leave their fate up to a die (unlike the players who scratch and fight and leave their fate up to chance on many occasions), or have to think of something clever quickly. That to me is how npc's can overshadow pc's..."Yeah I'd be 20th level by now too (with all that fancy gear), if that darn troll didnt nat 20 me with his vorpal sword". "Or that dragon didnt decide to eat me after I only said oops after stepping on one of its eggs". Its easy to just say so and so is this level, and say they did so by killing this and that and by doing that one thing long ago...and oh, they sure "almost" died that one time, but...
Lorehammer 07-30-04, 12:59 PM	This has degenerated into a Simulation vs. High-Fantasy argument. Some people prefer the world to be a simulation. The world runs on its own and the PCs are just a part of it. If, at 1st level, they walk into a dragon's den, they die. Other people prefer the world to be the playground of uber-powered players who sort of have a character, but whose name they probably dont' remember as well as his stats. The world waits around for the character to reach 15th level before any high-powered opponent could possibly interact with him, regardless of what he does. I prefer the former. So does JBW, I would guess. Many, many Eberron fans apparently prefer the latter. Wouldn't be any fun for me, but to each his own.
Stormwolf 07-30-04, 02:24 PM	I like to have cause and effect in my game and my worlds. The players did this, so this is the retaliation or effect it has from x organizations. Same is true for the explanation on why the kingdoms are "apparently" low on high level NPCs. Instead of lifting the bar for the NPC levels, why not leave that open for the players to find out... "Hmmm... you know after we fought the agents of (insert villians name) from (insert organization's name) it strikes me, why are they not trying to overrun us?" says one PC. That is a perfect adventure hook if I have ever seen one. Maybe they are, maybe there IS something keeping them in check that no one knows about. The organizations in the book are not the only ones out there, there could be any number of things that the players could DISCOVER without having the entire game world level raised a few notches, in my opinion needlessly. When I finish destroying my own world with the Githyanki incursion, at least that is how it looks so far, I will run Eberron right from the date that it leaves off in the time line. If the players do something that is not covered in the book I will make something up on the fly, and have it detailed for the next session. I will then keep track of what game date everything happens on and travel time etc. makes it more realistic. ;)
ruleslawyer 07-30-04, 03:04 PM	Originally posted by JBW I don't use action points. I don't think that they are very well balanced in PC vs. NPC conflicts, and that balance is important to me. I likewse don't differentiate between PC and NPC wealth values. Saying that an NPC should have less gear simply because it is not under a player's control is silly. Except that the entire point of a heroic fantasy campaign is that the PCs are the heroes. Heroes should be special, and having an embodiment of what makes them special (such as action points) is perfectly within place. I'd say that a world in which NPCs get the same neat stuff and heroic abilities as the PCs makes the PCs no longer special, and thus defeats the entire purpose of making them heroes.
Joni-san 07-30-04, 03:31 PM	Originally posted by Lorehammer This has degenerated into a Simulation vs. High-Fantasy argument. Some people prefer the world to be a simulation. The world runs on its own and the PCs are just a part of it. If, at 1st level, they walk into a dragon's den, they die. Other people prefer the world to be the playground of uber-powered players who sort of have a character, but whose name they probably dont' remember as well as his stats. The world waits around for the character to reach 15th level before any high-powered opponent could possibly interact with him, regardless of what he does. I prefer the former. So does JBW, I would guess. Many, many Eberron fans apparently prefer the latter. Wouldn't be any fun for me, but to each his own. Actualy it's a bit more complicated than that Lorehammer. You see for some Eberron fans Keith's comments are pretty much cannon and IIRC Keith has said that "normal" NPC's don't gain levels like PCs do. But some NPC's like the Lord of Blades do have that ability to gain levels. Think of it as a special rule "Named NPCs, Organisations and Villians gain levels while nameless NPCs, Organisations and Villians don't" Edit: Organisations, NPCs and Villians made by the DM also obey this rule. It's just that some of us presume that the great majority (perhaps 99.999% or so) of NPCs will stay in the lower levels because they aren't out there facing great challenges. And most NPCs will have NPC classes, wich are inferrior to PC classes.
DarkerDreams 07-30-04, 04:17 PM	prefacing with IMO... The argument of "but where are the high level NPCs that hold all the bad things off" seems odd to me as it's covered in the ECS book. historic safeguards (made by groups that have annhiliated themselves or just died of old age) not included; the Blood of Vol/Emerald Claw are opposed by the Lords of Dust and Kaius I (and every right-thinking organization on the planet) The Quori are opposed by the Blood of Vol/Emerald claw, the Lords of Dust, and the Kalashtar. The Dalkyer are opposed by the Chamber, the Blood of Vol/Emerald Claw, the Lords of Dust (and every right-thinking soul on the planet). The Chamber is checked by All the Other Dragons, The Dalkyer, the Quori, the Blood of Vol/the Emerald Claw, the Elves, the Lords of Dust (and anyone else who feels like they're immortal enough to take their lives into their hands). the Lord of Blades is held down by Relitive Newness, the Blood of Vol/Emerald Claw, House Cannith (we didn't make things that run amok, wanna buy a weapon?), and anyone who has designs on taking over a living world. the Aurum is held down by being a bunch of low-level rich pricks trying to take over a world that's got claiments who've been on the job for centuries if not millinium. So there isn't a need for high level NPCs. The unique thing about the PC's in the politics of this world will be that if/when they come to power they'll be the first relitively unchecked group that can take a free swing at whatever's ******* them off... of course, there's a good chance that if they win (say, by taking out Vol) that the whole system of checks and balances will come unglued and the results will be worse for all the little people than the current situation... but that's what makes for Epic adventures!
Alratan 07-30-04, 05:01 PM	Another way to handle the dearth of high level NPCs: somewhere around 8th level, the party is attacked by a team of high level telepaths, who proceed to mindwipe them back to 2nd level. After the mindwiping, the lead telepath checks his lists, gasps in horror, and apologies profusely, explaining that he had not realised that they were "PCs" and that he is very sorry, but there is really nothing to be done. :)
Treefrog 07-30-04, 10:40 PM	If I'm not mistaken, I thought that I read that if its been published by WotC, then it has a place in Eberron. Keith, have you thought about doing some Epic-level feats for the Warforged eventually? And BTW, kudos to you for creating a race that I always thought about doing - the Warforged (living constructs).
kglethean 07-31-04, 02:34 AM	I think epic levels suck period. To me it's like a DM blessing meta/power gaming. If you want to play epic, pick up a copy of NVN and its two expansions. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it can be pulled off and I'm sure a lot of people have fun playing Aragorn and Legolas clones, but the most fun I've had ever in D&D was between level 3 and 4 in my brother's campaign (that was like 2 years of gaming to get to level 4 :D). EB seems especially geared towards the "rising stars" focus on the players so I don't want to play a character past L15 personally. By then it's time to retire and play shuffleboard. -kg
ruleslawyer 07-31-04, 03:07 AM	Some of us like playing epic level characters (who, incidentally, would be far more on the level of Gandalf, Feanor, or Sauron than Aragorn or Legolas, but that's a separate debate). You know, although I've unfortunately supported this line of discussion, it does interest me that just as people have found the existence of high-level NPCs in FR something to get annoyed about, others have found the absence of high-level NPCs in Eberron a matter of concern. It does seem to illustrate the old cliche about never being able to please everyone...
DarkerDreams 07-31-04, 11:52 AM	ruleslawyer; I thought the old debate would be if someone came swinging in saying gandalf doesn't have to be more than 5th level. ;) sorry, done now.
Xaos_Bob 08-01-04, 03:35 AM	So what really makes the PCs special? Whether Eberron, the Realms, Dark Sun or Greyhawk, there is a concept given shape by the Planescape setting: It isn't about killing bigger and badder monsters. Shoot, the planes teach us that there is always something bigger, meaner and tougher than you out there. If all it devolves into is an endless series of battles to get better stuff to fight bigger monsters to get better stuff to fight even bigger monsters, then it's a video game, not D&D. In a similar vien, showcasing high- or epic-level NPCs is all too often a DM-vs.-player mentality. In this sort of venue, of course the PCs can't measure up. So what is it that differentiates PCs? What makes PCs different is that the game, the STORY is about them. It is not about epic-level NPCs, it is not about the DM's new favorite toy (be it NPC, monster, magic, what have you). The DM is the story-framer, the players are the storytellers, and the story is the PCs. Pure and simple. Epic NPCs surely exist...but they simply don't matter, because the story isn't about them. Will the PCs ever run afoul devastation vermin or advanced fiendish prismatic dragons? Possibly. Who keeps them in check until then? Nobody who knows the PCs (including their players) really cares! Now, when it's the PCs' turn to keep them in check, THEN we'll care...
Otakkun 08-01-04, 03:34 PM	"Amen to that"
WizO_Sith 08-01-04, 05:17 PM	Ok folks, I know feelings are running high on both sides of this debate, but let's stay civil here, shall we? Thanks.
ChrisTheS 08-01-04, 05:43 PM	I just thought of something that could be used to explain low NPC levels in terms that even the 'roll players' among us might accept: Remember that the amount of XP gained from slaying a particular type of monster decreases as you go up in level. A 1st-level character only needs to kill 10 goblins to go up a level; a 2nd-level one needs to kill 20; an 8th-level character needs to kill 122. Now think critically about the sort of slaying options open to most NPCs. Are most of them going to be where they're able to harvest XP from higher-CR threats? Nope. Unlike PCs, who go out of their way to find high-CR menaces, NPCs are comparatively limited in their range. Even a militiaman who routinely battles against goblin raiders is more limited than an adventurer who also fights hobgoblins, orcs, drow, doppelgangers, tanar'ri, and dragons. Hence, NPCs will go up in level more slowly than people who actively seek out high-level things to smite. Also, consider that the majority of the NPCs are principally non-combatants, who will have gotten most--if not all--their XP from ad hoc awards (in which case, assume that Keith is the GM, and that he's stingy with non-combat XP :P ). I've been making most of my 'veteran' characters (P and NP) between 2nd and 5th level, depending upon how much action they saw in the war and how long their soldierly career has been. The average soldier doesn't get all that many kills; they may level up for the first time over the course of a single battle, but after that it'll take at least two--probably more--for them to do so again, and it just keeps increasing exponentially. The more you kill, the less XP you get for it. Major battles also occur relatively infrequently; you spend more time marching than you do fighting (and you don't get XP for marching). On the rare occasions when a higher CR threat exists, it tends to be of the sort that kills low-level grunts instantly (whether that orc in the middle of the formation at the Battle of Pelennor is 1st or 4th level doesn't matter very much if he gets smooshed by a rampaging oliphaunt). That's the thing; no matter how high-level a character is, s/he can still be put down by overwhelming force. There's no reason why there couldn't have been high-level NPCs at one point, and they just happen to all be dead now; that's the premise that Dragonlance works on, after all. So, putting aside all considerations of setting flavor, destiny, action points, or what have you, the reason why PCs are different from NPCs is that they go looking for trouble. The NPCs in Eberron do not go looking for trouble; they all have their particular duties and responsibilities to care for. 'Adventurous' NPCs are going to be largely on par with the PCs, because they'll have been doing the same things for roughly the same length of time (you don't have many people wandering about the world slaying monsters during wartime; they tend to be at the battlefront slaying each other). Hence there is no particular reason why they should be significantly higher level than the player characters. --- Of course, there are those of us who are willing to take the NPC levels at face value and be satisfied with the explanation that the PCs are 'special'.
Brastan 08-01-04, 06:18 PM	Rather civil. I believe most strongly that PCs are special, epic or not. They have one thing that NPCs don't, a dedicated super intelligence guiding them alone. The more thing a DM has to control the less intelligent over all they act, unless you slow your game to a crawl. (This is a definite meta game explanation) For epic charters that I and my friends have run in standard DnD rarely stay on the Prime martial plane as it was. We usually just dropped by to heal, to plan an so we could banish the demons and angles that had been chasing us all over creation. We never went about concurring the Prime because we were to busy getting rich on other planes. I would expect this to be the case with Epic level NPCs in Eberron. They aren't on the prime because of what ChrisTheS said. Simply its not a challenge. Going back to the escaping death thing for a moment, has an one figured out a good way to by pass death by old age that doesn't involve an undead state or becoming an outsider? If so let me know. Other wise death is rather permeant in that case. ( you cannot be raised, resurrected or what not if you kicked the buck through being old, just a reminder.) Wish is about the only thing I can think of but that can be more dangerous then just dying.
ChrisTheS 08-01-04, 06:42 PM	Heh... I like that. That means that GMs are the personifications of Fate in D&D worlds. *schemes madly* As to your latter question: soul bind. Store the soul of a recently dead person, place it into, say, a non-animated warforged shell, and do a little more magical jiggery-pokery to allow the bound soul to control the shell; and there you have something that Dragonstar calls a 'soulmech'. Since soul bind doesn't specify that it doesn't work on creatures that die of old age, de facto it DOES work in the case of death by natural causes. It would be horrendously expensive, of course... the cost of the focus plus the cost of the shell plus the mage's fees...
Lorehammer 08-12-04, 02:32 AM	Originally posted by ruleslawyer Except that the entire point of a heroic fantasy campaign is that the PCs are the heroes. Heroes should be special, and having an embodiment of what makes them special (such as action points) is perfectly within place. I'd say that a world in which NPCs get the same neat stuff and heroic abilities as the PCs makes the PCs no longer special, and thus defeats the entire purpose of making them heroes. My point of view is that heroes are special because they achieve in spite of their limitations. Characters that achieve because it is made easy for them are not heroes. They are yet another boring power group in yet another dull world setting. IMO, It's really only heroic and/or memorable if the 20 comes up on the die--not because you spend action points to turn it into a 20 when your opponents do not have that opportunity. If EVERY character you create is god-awful powerful with action points, faster level progression, and faster wealth acquisition than the surrounding NPCs, it defeats the entire purpose for playing the game (at least for me). Dave the Fighter with scores of 18, 17, 17, 15, 14, 13, action points, and a Vorpal Longsword who gains 100,000 gold pieces in a dozen game sessions, along with 15 levels, is boring. Try playing Bailey Bagstock, Halfling Rogue with scores of 13, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8 who gains 122 gold pieces and one level in a dozen game sessions. In ten years, Bailey Bagstock's natural 20 die roll against an ogre mage will be more memorable and heroic than yet another action-point adjusted great cleave against a group of orcs by some fighter whose name we forgot 8 years ago (but whose strength score we remember). Dave is for the MTV-reared generation who can't sit through a whole episode of Short Attention Span Theater. I've been down that road--over twenty years ago. It has it's place, for sure; but its not for me anymore.
Bleon 08-12-04, 04:29 AM	I think that this whole NPC epic levels debate has gone astray. If someone uses high level NPCs in his campaign, it doesn't necessarily mean that he values power gaming in expense of everything else. If a DM wants to give PCs a special place in his campaign, he can do that without approving munchkinism. Levels are all about the gaming mechanism and, to me personally, it's not that important. I enjoy playing or DMing a session where there's no need to roll a single die. But everyone is of course entitled to his own opinion. With that said I'm planning to keep my players at fairly low levels and, at the same time, give them their special status as main characters of my story. And yes, NPCs are going to be at lower levels too. -bleon
JDubTrafficGod 08-12-04, 08:58 AM	This is my take on the whole forces of evil thing. The world just came out of the greatest war of its time. The people are tired of war, but still capable. Almost everyone has been touched by the war. I'd say 90-95% of the populaces of those nations heavily involved in the war were affected in one-way or another (be it extra food production, creating magic/magewrit/masterwork items, militia training, fighting as regulars.) At that probably 30% or more of the male populous ages 15-45 faced combat at one point or another during the war. That means that for every two million people (50/50 male female ratio) there are three hundred thousand capable (Warrior/Fighter levels 1-5) soldiers. Then take into consideration that their leaders, whether at the squad or general level, are all battle hardened. By any reckoning that many battle-trained soldiers is a formidable force. I'm not sure of the total populace of Eberron, but say that Two or three of the major nations came together to fight a common foe (as I'm sure they would if demons came scrambling from the wastes) and their populaces came to 8 million people, that’s a total of 1,200,000 +/- 150,000 soldiers. That’s a maximum of 150,000 baddies vs. around a million soldiers. That’s seven to one odds, not including casters, female fighters, warforged, controlled undead, ect. Many may say that what I'm saying is improbable, but I can almost guarantee that the nations (at least a few: think Breland, Thrane, Eldeen Reaches, Karnn'ath) of the Thronehold would come together to oppose such a force regardless of previous misgivings; they would in my game anyway. An invasion like that might be enough to reunite the nations. The Demons would take all this into consideration before trying anything rashly. Well, that’s my take on it; you're more than welcome to blast away. And once again I'm just guessing on the populace numbers, so don't flame me on that.
triqui 08-12-04, 09:49 AM	My opinion in different issues of the thread: I like there is no high level NPC there that can solve the world problem in a flash, but happen to be worried doing other things. I dislike when im playing, say, an adveture in Waterdeep, and there is some strange and evil plot from, say, an evil cult, and the players try to solve it while Khelben is on holidays in the sword coast or something. It is my feeling, however. The heros in FR are NOT the characters. The characters are minor heroes at the very best. Drizzt, Elminster, khelben, and the pletora of lvl 20+ NPC ARE the heroes, and those are who save the world. You save a thorn, if you are lucky. I remember an AD&D game where i ended being king of a city state in Chessenta. I was a fighter of lvl 17. In my country there was like 20 people with higher lvl than me, and each and every other ruler around me had either higher lvl OR where Gods. I found my character quite disminished, but that is me. In Eberron you cant go to the city number 23 of the country number 12 and hope there is a lvl 18 cleric there to cast true ressurection on your dead ally. YOU are the high lvl character that can ressurect others. I find it very apropiate. About the "hole" in the world defenses against the hordes of evil, i think you have been seing it from regular D&D (either FR or Greyhawk) perspective, instead of from Eberron perspective. The rulers of countries and houses CAN keep the dragons, or demons, at bay. Yep, the king of XXXX might not be himself a lvl 20 wizard. BUT he can command huge armies of undead, or he have a fleet of flying frigates, or he controls several Warforged Titans. I think that a moving SQUAD of fortresses is more frightening for an army of rakshasas than a single The Simbul is. That dragon is trying to overrun your country? well, i guess he will have SOME problems when fighting my 25 heavy firepower flying frigates. So a psionic idiot has planed an invasion against my country? Unleash the HUGE horde of undeads above their asses. Lets see if they are _that_ hard. Disclaimer: That was my opinion, not yours. Yours can (and surelly does) differ.
Atlictoatl 08-12-04, 05:07 PM	I haven't seen this idea posted yet here; if it has been, my apologies. If you so choose, one way to write high-level NPCs out of Eberron (both good and evil), is to have one of the coterminous planes with a very lengthy period of separation from Eberron have passed through near the end of the War. Either its coterminal period ended, or it passed into that furthest aperature (which term I cannot recall). It could be that a large degree of the world's heroic/villainous forces ventured into that plane looking for a key to triumphing in the War, and have become trapped there. It could be that this somehow related to the Mourning -- perhaps a weapon or entity of great power was stationed in Cyre, and required certain high-level personages to control it. With a sudden dearth of such people, due to a planar shift, the thing was unleashed. Or perhaps the thing came from the coterminal plane, and when it was defeated, or lost its coherence, or whatever, the Mourning happened -- also utterly eliminating whatever heroes and villains were attempting to control or dismantle it. If this background is used, it implies that there will be strongholds still existing in Eberron that once belonged to high-level personages, waiting for their masters to return. It also implies that those masters may some day return, when they find a method of egress from the Plane of their entrapment, or when that plane becomes coterminous again. Also, as one poster suggested in his nice list of opposing forces, the planet is not entirely devoid of high-level forces that keep the evildoers at bay. Both the Deathless and the Dragons who were once their masters seem quite capable of exerting some influence on world events, and are much less interested in the political affairs of Khorvaire than in keeping the Daekyr and the Demons from regaining a foothold on this Material Plane.
Artur King of the Britons 08-12-04, 05:37 PM	Originally posted by JBW I don't use action points. I don't think that they are very well balanced in PC vs. NPC conflicts, and that balance is important to me. I likewse don't differentiate between PC and NPC wealth values. Saying that an NPC should have less gear simply because it is not under a player's control is silly. Jay Lol, so your PCs have much more magical gear than they are supposed to then ? Tnhe reason this rule exists is so the pcs dont get more than their fair share of treasure, I would say that you have just made your pcs more exceptional than not. Also thats kinda the point of action points your heros are important the npcs arent, but in your campaign it sounds like you want more gritty. D&D is probably not the game for that.
JBW 08-12-04, 06:08 PM	Lol, so your PCs have much more magical gear than they are supposed to then ? Tnhe reason this rule exists is so the pcs dont get more than their fair share of treasure, I would say that you have just made your pcs more exceptional than not. Not necessarily. Many of the PCs have expendable items (wands, staffs, potions, scrolls and books/tomes granting inherent bonuses) that make up a rather sizable portion of their belongings even at high levels. Likewise, much of their wealth is often spent on hiring spellcasters for a casting. Just becasue the total value of a 18th-level PC is 440,000 gp does not mean he has that amount of gear on him, it means that's how much he's had along the way. It includes the now empty potion bottles, the now expended and useless wands, the sunderd +2 sword you lost back at 8th-level, the money spent to Ressurrect you last year, and the 55,000 gp of a Tome of Understanding +2 that can never be parted with. In contrast, the NPC values do represent what the NPC has right now and this is just a simplification that prevents you from having to do tedius bookkeeping for them. NPCs will likewsie have nonclaimable treasure, such s permanent spells and inherent bonuses that PCs can not loot from them. I could probably take more time to explain my views, but I don't really think that it would be worth it. Play as you will. Jay
Endless_Helix 08-12-04, 07:39 PM	Eberron is well adapted for epic level play. Most of your low level adventures consist of thwarting the small but vital conspiracy, or uncovering the lost McGuffin. In Epic, it's time to confront The Lords of Dust head on and take them out one by one or by the hundreds. The whole "well if the king can't defend his country from the dragon, it shouldn't exist!" is pointless. In Eberron 1st level magewrights are not uncommon. Lets say Breland was to have a unit of two hundred of them. Now Breland is also a fairly rich country. It can easily pay for 200 wands of magic missile. Now if you hand them out to the magewrights you now have a unit capable of dealing 200d4+200 damage at the minimum. If it's a higher caster level, it could be well into howevermany d4+1000 magic damage. That will kill a rakshasa, dragon, or assorted nasty fairly quickly. Or they could be less frugal and arm the magewrights with wands of Scorching Ray. In which case they would deal, at a minimum 800d6. With an average roll of 3.5, then we get 2800 damage. That is more than enough to kill a marauding dragon. The people defend themselves just fine. This of course brings the role of the PCs in question. 200 magewrights can handle an overt threat as well or better then most PCs even high level ones. That means that heros have to be the ones who get rid of the elderitch machine conspiracies, get rid of the assassin, find the murderer or artifact, and survive the traps. The Heroes are the people who are the last line of defence for when it's slipped right under everyone elses noses. Next thing is while 1-6 people in a million may have the potential to level up indeffinately, but how many survive the rigors of dealing with the annoying kobold rogue with a crossbow? And some may choose not to become adventurers because they have other connections, like say they're going to be married in a few weeks, or they are trying to get that doctorate in philosophy morgrave u. So in reality fewer than the suggested ammount actually exist. My estimate would be there would only be about 100 level 16+ on Khorvaire, maybe another 50 on sarlona, probably another 200 on aerenal(undying councilers, not strictly adventurers.), Most dragons on Argonnessen are that level, and on Xen'drik, well who knows?
debatedeus 08-12-04, 09:30 PM	Originally posted by JBW Not necessarily. Many of the PCs have expendable items (wands, staffs, potions, scrolls and books/tomes granting inherent bonuses) that make up a rather sizable portion of their belongings even at high levels. Likewise, much of their wealth is often spent on hiring spellcasters for a casting. Just becasue the total value of a 18th-level PC is 440,000 gp does not mean he has that amount of gear on him, it means that's how much he's had along the way. It includes the now empty potion bottles, the now expended and useless wands, the sunderd +2 sword you lost back at 8th-level, the money spent to Ressurrect you last year, and the 55,000 gp of a Tome of Understanding +2 that can never be parted with. If you look at the average wealth gain per encounter against the starting amounts for PCs over level 1 you'll notice that that the numbers do not match up (If a PC earns the average encounter amount for 13 on-their-level encounters they will have about 20% more than the starting wealth for the next level). Starting wealth for PCs assumes that although some money was spent on various expendables, but that most of it was kept and optimally used. I'm interested in more information about your view here. Why list how much a PC had along the way when you are making a character? How do you determine what expenses they had to pay along the way? Do you cut a flat rate off the top, or do you roll for random misfortunes along the way. Originally posted by JBW In contrast, the NPC values do represent what the NPC has right now and this is just a simplification that prevents you from having to do tedius bookkeeping for them. NPCs will likewsie have nonclaimable treasure, such s permanent spells and inherent bonuses that PCs can not loot from them. Again, I'm interested in more information on your view on this against my questions above. If the NPCs have permanent spells on them, do you count that against the PC wealth per level and give them gear based on the NPC table? Originally posted by JBW I could probably take more time to explain my views, but I don't really think that it would be worth it. Play as you will. While I'm definitely of the philosophy that people will play how they want without regard to my opinion, I am interested in other people's opinions so I can advance my own. That's the whole point of the boards. I think a statement like this, while a response to the frustration that other people can generate, is alien to the spirit of these boards. If you have a reason you want to share, give it. If you have a reason you want to share, don't give it, but don't tell us that it is there.
Xaos_Bob 08-13-04, 01:26 PM	In Eberron 1st level magewrights are not uncommon. Lets say Breland was to have a unit of two hundred of them. Now Breland is also a fairly rich country. It can easily pay for 200 wands of magic missile. Now if you hand them out to the magewrights you now have a unit capable of dealing 200d4+200 damage at the minimum. If it's a higher caster level, it could be well into howevermany d4+1000 magic damage. That will kill a rakshasa, dragon, or assorted nasty fairly quickly. Unfortunately, the argument breaks down a bit when you consider that rakshasas, dragons and other high- to epic-level monsters generally have spell resistance...and generally tough SR, at that. Does make a neat mental image, though!
Artur King of the Britons 08-13-04, 05:01 PM	Originally posted by JBW Not necessarily. Many of the PCs have expendable items (wands, staffs, potions, scrolls and books/tomes granting inherent bonuses) that make up a rather sizable portion of their belongings even at high levels. Likewise, much of their wealth is often spent on hiring spellcasters for a casting. Just becasue the total value of a 18th-level PC is 440,000 gp does not mean he has that amount of gear on him, it means that's how much he's had along the way. It includes the now empty potion bottles, the now expended and useless wands, the sunderd +2 sword you lost back at 8th-level, the money spent to Ressurrect you last year, and the 55,000 gp of a Tome of Understanding +2 that can never be parted with. In contrast, the NPC values do represent what the NPC has right now and this is just a simplification that prevents you from having to do tedius bookkeeping for them. NPCs will likewsie have nonclaimable treasure, such s permanent spells and inherent bonuses that PCs can not loot from them. I could probably take more time to explain my views, but I don't really think that it would be worth it. Play as you will. Jay No what i was saying and which you decided to take out of context was to what you said, which was i think that NPCs should have as much golds worth of equipment as a PC of equal level (i understand that by the way) WHICH I DISAGREE WITH, because then when your PCs defeat those NPCs they have to much equpiment for their level - you want to misquote me thats fine but at least read the post your arrogant prig. And your last comment shows just how arrogant you REALLY are, you wanna change the rules so that your NPCs have as much equipment as the PCs thats fine be prepared for the consequences that i gave. And on a final note, back at you... I could probably take more time to explain my views, but I don't really think that it would be worth it. Play as you will.
Atlictoatl 08-13-04, 05:17 PM	Originally posted by JBW Just becasue the total value of a 18th-level PC is 440,000 gp does not mean he has that amount of gear on him, it means that's how much he's had along the way. It includes the now empty potion bottles, the now expended and useless wands, the sunderd +2 sword you lost back at 8th-level, the money spent to Ressurrect you last year, and the 55,000 gp of a Tome of Understanding +2 that can never be parted with. In my experience, most campaigns in which players generate high-level characters (without playing through each level) do not treat this figure this way. The gp total is the gp total of that character's current possessions, including things like uses of a Tome or payment of a Wish.
debatedeus 08-13-04, 09:08 PM	Originally posted by Xaos_Bob Unfortunately, the argument breaks down a bit when you consider that rakshasas, dragons and other high- to epic-level monsters generally have spell resistance...and generally tough SR, at that. Does make a neat mental image, though! It was one example. Take the example of 400 archers, standing 3 range increments out who can only hit on a natural 20 anyways can generate a similar, if slower, effect. If they have composite longbows, an average of 20 will hit a round for 20d8 damage, or about 90 damage a round. With 400 firing, there is also a pretty good shot that one of them will double 20 in a single round. There are many other ones that don't just take advantage of repetitive numbers uses, but I'm not feeling very creative tonight.
Endless_Helix 08-13-04, 09:19 PM	Human magrwrights can get spell penetration twice to increase their ability to get through spell resistence, if neccisary, Rakshasa have SR 15 or 20. So it is possible that they could go through rakshasa decently probably about a quarter to a half of the damage would go through, meaning 700-1400 damage, which kills a rakshasa dead. Juvenile dragons, the most likely to fly accross the ocean, have neglible SR. Once they become adults the SR gets boosted. Adults I assume prefer to stay in one place and contemplate the draconic prophecy in relative peace.