Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fion81 08-13-06, 08:47 PM	Are there any published epic npcs in eberron. I dont mean monsters with a cr over 20, i mean an npc/monster with a class levels over 20. Im talking printed in a book npcs here, not house ruled. This is mostly just out of curosity. I was actually a bit dissapointed when the blood of vol wasnt over 20, i mean what with having a full religion behind her and given there are other wizards known to be higher level than her. I dont need there stats. Just who they are , what class and what book u got it from. if it exists at all. thank you.
Edymnion 08-13-06, 09:15 PM	Isn't Orlian (or however you spell it) an epic level druid, even before his treant LA is factored in?
DarkWarriorKarg 08-13-06, 09:26 PM	Technically, anything with a CR above 20 is Epic. Like the Solars in Syrania
doublecrash 08-13-06, 09:29 PM	Orlian is the only epic-level character in published works, unless there's something in Secrets of Xen'Drik or any unreleased works. Jaela Daran is 18th level in Flamekeep; but that's not epic, is it?
Fion81 08-13-06, 09:30 PM	20 i believe, his cr may be higher than 20 because of his nature/race. But his class level is 20. To my knowledge the higest class level ive seen, ive also seen an 18, and a 16, but nothing over 20. edit: what i meant by epic was over 20 levels in a character class. Obviously dragons are gonna be epic/some fiends/powerful monsters with even a few class levels such as a 10th level figther storm giant. But i havnt seen a character class level above 20th. Olian is 20th in the core book, does he get expanded elsewhere?
zambuka 08-13-06, 09:39 PM	Depends on what you mean by "epic". If by epic you simply mean lots and lots of levels and the ability to smite ancient dragons as a hobby then no, Eberron does not have that type of epic NPC. On the other hand Eberron does present a different type of epic NPC. Jaela would be pretty epic, after all she commands an entire religion, has access to some of the most powerful clerics on Eberron and has the backing of the only major Deity with a physical manifestation (even if there is debate about what the flame really is). All that is pretty epic without going above level 20. The archbishop or whatever his name (don't have my books on hand) of the Silver Flame (that evil guy) could also be classed as epic because he wields similar power to Jaela. The heads of house Cannith (and all the houses really) could be classed as epic because of the powerful magic and other resources at their command. A couple of hundred years of the best artificers Eberron has ever produced gives house Cannith some pretty powerful toys to play with. As for the Blood of Vol, well some of their clerics command (or at least have strong alliances with) some of the most powerful undead creatures on Eberron. Then there is Erandis herself (ok she does kinda fall into the monster category) with 4 thousand years of accumulated resources at hand she isn't exactly going to be a pushover even for the most powerful groups Eberron can pull together (even the dragons with all their might haven't been able to stop her). The wizard schools control some pretty epic level power even if individuals aren't in the epic levels themselves. One thing Eberron demonstrates quite effectively is that Epic doesn't always mean an NPC of 20 levels plus who plays volleyball with beholders. Eberron takes the Epic out of the NPCs and puts it into the resources and organisations these NPCs control, you can take out the leader of a powerful organisation pretty easily but there will always be someone there to take over. Eberron presents enough to challenge epic level characters and more than enough to keep them under control and prevent them fromrunning riot and destgroying everything in sight.
JulesCARV 08-13-06, 09:44 PM	Erandis d'Vol is a wizard? I'd have assumed she was a cleric, but I've heard that she was a wizard before, so I'm curious about what source it comes from. Anyway, as far as I know, the toughest beings in Eberron are the Daelkyr, with a CR of 20. Some epic monsters, such as abominations, seem like a poor fit for Eberron (I don't think anything in Eberron has a divine rank, whereas abominations are all divine rank 0.). As for non-divine ranked epic monsters, such as force dragons and prismatic dragons, I suppose they could be fit in, on an individual basis. Mercanes aren't really epic in CR, but they would make interesting outsiders devoted to Kol Korran. There aren't enough true neutral outsiders.... meh. Of course, Mercanes aren't true neutral either, but with a quick removal of the "L," they could be.
Edymnion 08-13-06, 09:44 PM	The no, there are no statted NPCs of Epic level, and I would like for it to stay that way. This isn't Faerun, you shouldn't have to preface EVERY SINGLE GAME you run with "Elminster is busy today". There's plenty of epic level badguys, and then there's always the fact that Erandis and the LoB'ster are only lvls (what is vol, 17 + Lich LA?) and 12 at the BEGINNING of the game. It is entirely appropriate and almost expected that they will level up over time just like the players, so Vol and LoB'ster will still be there when the players go Epic. Although, if you're starting the game at Epic levels, well, what can I say, you just missed the entire point of the setting, IMO.Erandis d'Vol is a wizard? I'd have assumed she was a cleric, but I've heard that she was a wizard before, so I'm curious about what source it comes from.ECS, p. 186. Specifically that she's a lvl 16 wizard. Some epic monsters, such as abominations, seem like a poor fit for Eberron (I don't think anything in Eberron has a divine rank, whereas abominations are all divine rank 0.).Keith has mentioned that he considers some of the critters, like some certain bound baddies, to have Divine Rank. Not as them being gods, but in terms of shear power.
Fion81 08-13-06, 09:45 PM	I understand all that, and i know how to use npcs to create diffirent challenges for the pcs even if the monsters are not as strong individually. What i wanted to know is if a single printed or mentioned character had a class level over 20. It seems the answer is no. Im talking 'epic' in the technical sense of epic level handbook stuff. Not epic in the conventional sense of having a great deal of power. A 0th level king can have a great deal of power, im well aware.
Wizardman 08-14-06, 03:32 AM	Actually, there are. If she were freed, Melisse Miron would be 21st level if she could return to Flamekeep. Also, unless I'm wrong, the highest level Lords of Dust have epic class levels. The one Rajah that the LoD article statted does as well, but she's already epic even without the levels.
The White Sorcerer 08-14-06, 07:12 AM	Isn't Orlian (or however you spell it) an epic level druid, even before his treant LA is factored in? Oalian is a 20th-level druid. Also, he's an awakened greatpine, not a treant. The only character with epic class levels that comes to mind is Melisse Miron, but she's only epic when in Flamekeep.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-14-06, 10:05 AM	Where did you find out about Melisse Meron? I think she and Oalian are the only good-aligned "epic" characters in Eberron that we've heard about. Maybe Aeren as well (he gave Aerenal its name, and as far as I can tell, is still "alive" as an Ascendant Councillor - take a regular one and give it class levels). There's no statted NPCs of epic levels. The GM has to make such important characters themself. Keith Baker has said there would be plenty of classed daelkyr and epic rajahs. Furthermore, special NPCs gain levels over time. Vol and her cabinet would be epic by the time the PCs are ready to face her. The Lord of Blades and his cabinet might be close to epic, at epic or even beyond epic at that point. Dragons can easily be epic. A CR 26 red dragon is already epic, even without giving it Loremaster levels.
CzarGarrett 08-14-06, 10:36 AM	Isn't the Fleshweaver up there in CR and all? Or is he just a high level regular human wizard?
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-14-06, 12:11 PM	Isn't the Fleshweaver up there in CR and all? Or is he just a high level regular human wizard? Mordain is an 18th-level transmuter when the PCs start at 1st-level. However, he'll be epic "soon" if you choose to use him in a campaign.
Wolfwood2 08-14-06, 12:46 PM	Where did you find out about Melisse Meron? I think she and Oalian are the only good-aligned "epic" characters in Eberron that we've heard about. Maybe Aeren as well (he gave Aerenal its name, and as far as I can tell, is still "alive" as an Ascendant Councillor - take a regular one and give it class levels). Melisse was in the Dragon magazine article on Dreadhold, and she is not good. She is the chosen of the Demon in the Flame and is most definitely evil. She is kept in the blackest dungeon of Dreadhold, petrified into stone. The only reason they don't kill her is that if they did, the Shadow in the Flame would choose someone new. She's level 21 in Flamekeep, but even outside she's a low teens level cleric, meaning she'd be quite difficult to handle if ever freed.
Hellcow 08-14-06, 01:40 PM	Setting aside the Overlords (rajahs), who are near-divine, many members of the Council of Ashtakala are epic level when you take their natural abilities into account. For example, Kashtarhak is a sorcerer 10/archmage 4, but as a rakshasa this gives him the spellcasting power of a 21st level sorcerer. Hektula is another epic caster... and they are only a few members of the Council, for all that the Council isn't a unified body. The key is that most members of the Council have little motivation for bringing their powers to bear. They want to unleash their dark lords, not simply conquer some human kingdom; they may see the PCs as having more value alive (as tools of prophecy) than dead, even if they have the power to smack the PCs. Anyhow, check out Dragon 337. As has been said, Vol and the Lord of Blades are expected to advance as the PCs do. The goal in setting Vol at 16th level was to make it possible for mid-level players to survive an encounter with her... but as they become more powerful, she can grow as well. And while I can't remember where it's been said, I believe we've described the Devourer of Dreams as a 20th-level telepath with a kalaraq spirit... though like the Lords of Dust, he's got bigger fish to fry than a party of adventurers. (Oh, and again, while their levels aren't stated, the named daelkyr in the Player's Guide to Eberron - the Lord of Eyes, Orlassk, etc. - are said to be more powerful than the "standard" daelkyr described in the end of the ECS.)
dmFiat 08-14-06, 04:14 PM	I know he doesn't have class levels over twenty, but Oalian has 52 HD. 32 for being a colossal awakened tree and 20 for his druid levels. By the way, what Con score should a colossal awakened tree have? The PHB doesn't specify what their Con becomes, which they should have, as plant creatures rather than constructs.
BoneLord_of_Skullthrone 08-14-06, 06:32 PM	Erandis d'Vol is a wizard? I'd have assumed she was a cleric, but I've heard that she was a wizard before, so I'm curious about what source it comes from. ECS p.228 And since she is a Half-dragon Elf Lich Wizard 16, she starts off as a CR 20 BBEG.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-14-06, 10:47 PM	I know he doesn't have class levels over twenty, but Oalian has 52 HD. 32 for being a colossal awakened tree and 20 for his druid levels. By the way, what Con score should a colossal awakened tree have? The PHB doesn't specify what their Con becomes, which they should have, as plant creatures rather than constructs. Con bonus of +18 (based on Colossal plant). It's a 3.0 rule, but it should do. And yeah, considering he probably put some points into Con via point buy and maybe even level gains, plus the possibility of boosting his Con through Bear's Endurance or a Con-boosting item, means he's going to be extremely hard to kill. Go ahead, cast Disintegrate.
The White Sorcerer 08-15-06, 04:52 AM	Where did you find out about Melisse Meron? I think she and Oalian are the only good-aligned "epic" characters in Eberron that we've heard about. Dragon #344. I wouldn't exactly classify her as a good-aligned character, considering she's lawful evil. Maybe Aeren as well (he gave Aerenal its name, and as far as I can tell, is still "alive" as an Ascendant Councillor - take a regular one and give it class levels). She died of a wasting disease on the voyage to Aerenal.
Fion81 08-16-06, 01:00 AM	Setting aside the Overlords (rajahs), who are near-divine, many members of the Council of Ashtakala are epic level when you take their natural abilities into account. For example, Kashtarhak is a sorcerer 10/archmage 4, but as a rakshasa this gives him the spellcasting power of a 21st level sorcerer. Hektula is another epic caster... and they are only a few members of the Council, for all that the Council isn't a unified body. The key is that most members of the Council have little motivation for bringing their powers to bear. They want to unleash their dark lords, not simply conquer some human kingdom; they may see the PCs as having more value alive (as tools of prophecy) than dead, even if they have the power to smack the PCs. Anyhow, check out Dragon 337. As has been said, Vol and the Lord of Blades are expected to advance as the PCs do. The goal in setting Vol at 16th level was to make it possible for mid-level players to survive an encounter with her... but as they become more powerful, she can grow as well. And while I can't remember where it's been said, I believe we've described the Devourer of Dreams as a 20th-level telepath with a kalaraq spirit... though like the Lords of Dust, he's got bigger fish to fry than a party of adventurers. (Oh, and again, while their levels aren't stated, the named daelkyr in the Player's Guide to Eberron - the Lord of Eyes, Orlassk, etc. - are said to be more powerful than the "standard" daelkyr described in the end of the ECS.) Thanks thats useful, and the more i read the realm the more i like it. Its just hard to get over some of the differences. Ill slip in one last brief question that only has a yes or no answer though, at this stage largely out of curosity. Is there a printed character with more than 20 levels in the same class or mulitple classes. ie. 25 level wizard 10 level fighter/12 rogue etc. Also Keith, im surprised to find out you expect npcs to advance, i had though with making the world powerful you had brought it more in reach, that makes that reach harder to attain than the printing would suggest. Be very easy to develop vol into epic levels and use those powers to illustrate her elevating to the Godhood she wants and the pcs have to stop her b4 its too late. I like it :P
Hellcow 08-16-06, 01:21 AM	Ill slip in one last brief question that only has a yes or no answer though, at this stage largely out of curosity. Is there a printed character with more than 20 levels in the same class or mulitple classes. Setting aside Melysse Miron, who only has that power under limited circumstances, the only one I know of is the rakshasa Hektula, who has a total of 22 class levels (wizard 10/loremaster 10/archmage 2). However, a number of members of the Council of Ashtakala have the power of characters over 20th level. As stated above, Kashtarhak is for all intents and purposes a 21st level sorcerer. Of course, both of these are ancient and immortal rakshasa, among the mightiest spirits still free from the Age of Demons... and despite her power, Hektula really has very little interest in the wider world. She's a student of prophecy and magic, but she doesn't care much about adventurers. If you try to rob the Library of Ashtakala, you'd better be prepared to deal with her... but you aren't going to encounter her in Sharn. Also Keith, im surprised to find out you expect npcs to advance... I don't expect ALL NPCs to advance... just those who need to advance to keep the story interesting. It may be that Mordain the Fleshweaver is set at 18th level, but Vol still has room for improvement; it's all about the role you want them to play in the story. There's a section about it in the ECS called "Recurring Villains"; recurring villains are typically going to need to grow with the heroes. The PC's ability to quickly advance marks them as heroes of the age... but there are also remarkable villains as well. With that said, for a villain like Vol to advance, I'd make this a remarkable thing. It's not that she just killed her 52,001st orc. Instead, it may be a secondary aspect of a great scheme. You prevented her from completing the Necronic Actuator and destroying all life in Breland... but she did get away with the Qabalrin Codex, and she'll be tougher the next time you meet. Pick your prime villains; just like Dr. Doom with the Fantastic Four, these villains should always advance as needed to prove a challenge.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-16-06, 03:59 PM	She died of a wasting disease on the voyage to Aerenal. Two sources, two genders :) Anyway, where does it say this? I was positive Magic of Eberron said Aeren became an Undying (which would make him/her immune to disease).
The Dreaming Duck 08-16-06, 05:38 PM	Anyway, where does it say this? The specific quote comes from this Dragonshard. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050530a) However, even if you discount the Dragonshard, the statement that Aeren did not survive the journey to Aerenal is reiterated in the second paragraph of the Player's Guide to Eberron entry on Aerenal. Magic of Eberron does say Aeren became Undying. However, the ECS, PGtE, Races of Eberron, and the Dragonshards all counter this, saying that the rise of the Undying Court was something that took thousands of years of study and also relies on the powerful Irian manifest zones found in Aerenal. The ECS timeline specifically states that the Undying Court appeared 25,000 years ago - nearly 14,000 years after the elves fled Xen'drik. So, canon sources conflict, and as such the truth is in your hands. But if you DO want to go strictly by the books, there is more evidence to support Aeren-as-fallen-prophet than Aeren-as-Undying.
(Psi)SeveredHead 08-16-06, 11:01 PM	With Keith Baker's Dragonshard and a host of other sources conflicting Magic of Eberron, I will go with Aeren being female, and dead.
Seth of the First Brigade 08-16-06, 11:41 PM	Thondred the Artificer....Though I don’t know if he’s statted out or not. He is in one of the core Eberron Books...I.E. either the ECS, FN, or SCoT...cant remember which one....I think the caption below his picture says something along the lines that he is the first character to reach epic levels in the world of Eberron...
Hellcow 08-16-06, 11:48 PM	I think the caption below his picture says something along the lines that he is the first character to reach epic levels in the world of Eberron... I wouldn't make too much of this. It's on page 17 of Player's Guide to Eberron. It gives information about making epic level artificers, shows a picture of Thondred (the iconic artificer) all decked out, and says "Thondred is among the first heroes of modern times to attain epic levels." In so doing, the picture serves multiple purposes. It illustrates the epic artificer, using the iconic character presented in the ECS. It further illustrates the point made elsewhere on page 17 - "It's probably best to assume that the player characters who reach epic levels are among the first to accomplish such a feat, at least in recent memory." That quote alone suggests that Thondred is a colorful picture, nothing more. You're not expected to use Thondred in your game (certainly the PGtE doesn't provide epic stats for him) - but hey, this is an image of what an epic-level artificer might look like.
Seth of the First Brigade 08-16-06, 11:54 PM	I wouldn't make too much of this. It's on page 17 of Player's Guide to Eberron. It gives information about making epic level artificers, shows a picture of Thondred (the iconic artificer) all decked out, and says "Thondred is among the first heroes of modern times to attain epic levels." In so doing, the picture serves multiple purposes. It illustrates the epic artificer, using the iconic character presented in the ECS. It further illustrates the point made elsewhere on page 17 - "It's probably best to assume that the player characters who reach epic levels are among the first to accomplish such a feat, at least in recent memory." That quote alone suggests that Thondred is a colorful picture, nothing more. You're not expected to use Thondred in your game (certainly the PGtE doesn't provide epic stats for him) - but hey, this is an image of what an epic-level artificer might look like. Why thank you Mr. Baker... :)