Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Senko 03-04-07, 09:38 PM	I was just wondering what an official expedition to Xendrick would need in terms of personel. Currently I'm thinking.... 1) Specialists to examine the location/items you find. Probably someone expert in various languages, an archeologist or 2 to say how to dig and what is a liable location. + any others relevant to the expedition e.g. botanists if your looking for certain rare plants and definately a guide. 2) Support staff i.e. diggers to dig things out of the ground probably 3-4. 3) Security staff i.e. adventurers I'm thinking 1 adventurer per 3 non to keep people safe depending on adventurer level. 4) Transpart animals i.e. mules probably 1 per 2 people and 1 mule in four to carry the mules food. Giving a nominal expedition a staff of 1 guide, 1 linguist, 1 archeologist, extra specialists as needed, 3 diggers, 2 adventurers and 4 mules. Scale up for larger expeditions, does this seem right to people?
Darth Syntax 03-04-07, 10:22 PM	You are also likely to need additional support staff. Someone to keep track of the supplies, possibly a cook, someone to keep track of the finances (the bigwigs back home love their money), a physician, and of course an expedition leader, and any aides they might need. for every specialist/expert on the trip, you will need 3 to 5 support staff; to haul their gear, to lend a hand, to make sure that the experts can spend their time being experts and not getting bogged down by piddly little details. Experts: You will need at least 1 linguist (maybe more depending on where you are going), 1-3 archaeologists (it's possible one of these is a linguists as well), and probably an arcanist and a botanist and/or druid. Then comes security: you will need far more than just two guards, especially if you are going into hostile or dangerous territory. 5-10 guards sounds about right. This is Xen'Drik, where everything eats you. So, you are looking at about 30 people for an official expedition, give or take. for more shady ventures, you can skimp on things, but it might not be a good idea.
Senko 03-04-07, 10:44 PM	Hmmm thanks for the help I was definately underestimating numbers then. So lets now... Expedition Leader Cook Financier Physician Linguist 1-3 Archeologists Arcanist Botanist Druid 5-10 Guards 3-5 Support Staff There's some redundancy there though so lets see Necessary and Useful positions. Necessary Expedition Leader Archeologist Guards (5-10 depending on level/location we'll say 5 for this group) Support Staff (3-5 seems a little high I'd say 1 baggage handler/porter per expert. In this case 4 as most of it will be in the packing/unpacking and they can double as diggers. Of course I could be wrong.) Useful Financier (Expedition Leader could handle this) Cook (Could do a rotating duty with the various expedition members taking a turn) Physician (Any clerics in the guards could double as this) Linguist (Can probably find an archeologist with a decent knowledge of languages so I think I'll drop this one entirely) Archeologist/s (Number depends on size of expedition say 2 for general purposes) Arcanist (As physician any mages in the guards could double here) Botanist (A so/so position if your looking at old ruins one may be useful to keep you alive, if your looking at plants a necessary but you can probably remove an archeologist) Druid (As arcanist/phsyician) 5-10 Guards (In this case we'll go with 5 again) 3-5 Support Staff (I'd say 1 staff per person again) Minimum number for illegal operation = 4 (adventuring party mage, cleric, fighter, thief) Minimum number for a cash strapped expedition with reasonable safetfy = 11 Recomended number for a secure expedition = 15-20 Recomended number with redundancy and preparation for unexpected situations = 28 or so. Seems to work out an average expedition with redundancy would have around 30 as you said and you could always scale up for major projects. Although if you have guards doubling as some of the positions you can cut it down to about half that number.
goblin_pride 03-04-07, 10:47 PM	You forgot laborers and handlers for any pack animals.
Senko 03-04-07, 10:52 PM	No I didn't I included them as support staff e.g. a support staff of 4 would handle the mule train, unpacking and setting up camp + general digging. Although I guess that could be divided into seperate groups I figured you'd try to keep unnecessary redundancy out of hte equation.
Splendide 03-04-07, 11:19 PM	You guys aren't thinking third-world enough Project Manager. Doesn't have to be the guy with the big idea or the knowledge, he is in charge of getting the money before the expedition and getting stuff thats needed. The Expert. Probably the guy who has the idea. More than one expert is likely unnecessary. 1 mercenary captain 1 Jorasco authorised medic 3-5 Warforged mercenaries, hired in Sharn. Should be good with a shovel. 10-20 desperate hungry farmers, ex-soldiers or extra Warforged who are cheap. For equipment, bring whatever you definitely must have need. Buy augers, carts and such stuff from other failed expeditions on the cheap. If necessary, have the men pull the carts.
Senko 03-05-07, 12:18 AM	To each their own I prefer to pay for quality so I get what I'm after, you run the risk of having those hungry farmers run or sneak off with what they find.
Splendide 03-05-07, 12:34 AM	Where are they going to run to? They're on Xen'drik, and they sure didn't find anything close to civilisation. If they try anything, you get your well-paid mercenary captain and the well-paid warforged to track him down and kill him.
fiendish_platypus 03-05-07, 07:22 AM	Just hire some random adventuring party, works for most people :D .
Nuclear_Buddha 03-05-07, 10:30 AM	Just don't forget the Tabasco sauce. That stuff makes anything edible.
Senko 03-05-07, 05:03 PM	Ah well I guess there are ways to save money if you don't mind compromising on quality.
DyloniusFunk 03-05-07, 05:10 PM	The Explorer's Handbook has a section ont he Wayfinder Foundation, one of the premiere exploration groups in Korvaire. They will probably have info on how to setup an expedition
Senko 03-05-07, 05:13 PM	Hmmmm I don't think I have that one but I'll hunt through my books.
DyloniusFunk 03-05-07, 05:16 PM	there's a smalls ection on them in the ECS but Explorer's really goes into more detail.
Darth Syntax 03-05-07, 05:36 PM	Just hire some random adventuring party, works for most people :D . From The Library of Korranberg Projects Code Use of Unlicensed Parties The Board of Doyens of The Library of Korranberg cautions you against the use of unknown or unknowable (see section 22b) parties when conducting official business, including research and field word, of the Library. Improperly licensed parties present a substantial security risk to Library personnel and property, both real and intellectual. The Library may terminate funding for any project which willfully makes use of unlicensed parties without notice. Further, gross violations of the Code of Academic Conduct (section 1.2a) may result in severe fines and penalties, up to and including the full refunding of any and all expenses already disbursed to the project. In the event that the Library revokes its approval of a project because of use of unlicensed parties, the Project Director (as defined by section 2 of Library Projects Code) assumed complete and total responsibility (financial and otherwise) for the actions and conduct of the members of said project. Exceptions to Termination of Project Funding 1. The Unlicensed Parties falsely represented themselves to the Project Director as licensed, which constitutes fraud. 2. Dire Circumstances (as defined by Section 4 of the Library Projects Code) 3. The expiration of a legitimate Library License during the course of the Project
Yakman 03-05-07, 06:07 PM	again, we aren't nearly 3rd world enough. You need a LOT of guys hauling stuff--dozens at least. you need food, trading goods, weapons, equipment, emergency supplies, etc., and you need to trek it all in. The trading goods alone are going to take up a lot of room--you have to buy off the giants and the drow and whatever else might demand tribute for you passing through their territory.
goblin_pride 03-05-07, 09:32 PM	again, we aren't nearly 3rd world enough. That's my thinking exactly, Yakman. You gotta remember that everything you need has to be carried in because you don't know what the local environs will provide in regards to food, water, shelter and labor resources. Plus there's the question of tribute and gifts to the local chieftains for the rights to plunder their ancient sites. Remember, even in Khorvaire, what you call "archaeology", the local goblinoids might call "Graverobbing".
Yakman 03-06-07, 11:46 AM	That's my thinking exactly, Yakman. You gotta remember that everything you need has to be carried in because you don't know what the local environs will provide in regards to food, water, shelter and labor resources. Plus there's the question of tribute and gifts to the local chieftains for the rights to plunder their ancient sites. Remember, even in Khorvaire, what you call "archaeology", the local goblinoids might call "Graverobbing". It is probably far worse in Xen'drik than in Africa during the Scramble, simply because you have far worse threats than some impoverished tribes with spears and flintlocks and because of the temperature fluctuations--you are going to need cold weather gear in many instances--especially when going into virtually unknown territory.
Dragom 03-06-07, 12:10 PM	How good is a cart or a mule in a jungle? Or anywhere without a maintained path or road? Mules can limit themselves to animal trails but carts are far to big and clumsy. And mules smell like food. Even more then humans do. Especially when the mule is carrying the food. Sounds like a lot of back breaking labour to haul stuff without wheels. Guess that's why you hire a dozen semi-civilized drow packers at stormreach when you arrive. Drow Labourer "Sir?" Expedition Manager "Yes Hon'ja?" Drow Labourer "Why am I wearing a necklace of bloody steaks and standing next to the mule?" Expedition Manager "Because it's just more cost effective that way, Hon'ja."
Yakman 03-06-07, 12:32 PM	Well, I'm reading H.M. Stanley's How I Found Livingstone at the moment, so let's see (not a joke--it's fascinating).... Carts suck. They need roads, or flats, in order to move anything. You aren't likely to find that too much in Xen'drik--although there are some savannas that you could probably use a wagon in. As for mules, they are okay. But they eat things they are supposed to, and are devoured by flies, mosquitos, etc.. They die pretty easily. Best bet is lotsa porters, a good number of soldiers (I think Stanley set out with over a hundred porters and about 20 soldiers), and some mules--he set out with 15 and most of them are dead so far. he also lost his horses. he also lost his dog too! He's planning to be in country for about two years, but just to find a man and make his way back to the coast. A more serious expedition would probably need a significantly larger labour pool. Watch out for deserters, bring plenty of trade goods, and use the local trading networks and expertise. You can read Stanley's book here: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/5157
okaynowa 03-06-07, 01:18 PM	My campaign's first session was an expedition to Xen'drik. They were underwritten by Morgrave University and a few other investors, and one of the PCs pulled some House Orien strings, so the full roster included: The Party For brawn, a fighter, soulknife, and ranger For brains, an artificer, rogue, and bard The Payload Specialists A changeling expert, focused in languages in history A half-drow expert focused on Survival and Know (Geography) The Porters 8 hobgoblin warriors to lug gear and guard the camp 4 hobgoblin experts to man the riverboats The Packages 4 riverboats to carry everyone up the Hydra Spears, light crossbows, and leather armor for the warriors Food for 20 people for 4 weeks (mainly rice and jerky) Rope, camping gear, machetes, other tools The hobgoblins handled the tedious, grunty work for the trip. Six of them maintained a primary camp at the riverbank, while the rest went inland with the party. The ranger and the half-drow guide had sufficient time to hunt and forage, so the food supplies lasted longer than planned (in fact, the hobgoblins had enough down time at camp to ferment some jungle juice). The warriors padded out the party's numbers to scare off minor threats, but in the event of actual monster attack their first duty was to protect the gear and the boats. It worked out well in play. The players got to focus on their exploring and dungeon crawling, while my NPCs took care of logistics and said things like, "Yeah, we can spend another couple days taking measurements, but if we don't start back soon the rainy season will hit us halfway to Stormreach." I half expect them to set up a tent village the next time they go back.
Kreistor2 03-06-07, 01:34 PM	Expedition Leader Cook Financier Physician Linguist 1-3 Archeologists Arcanist Botanist Druid 5-10 Guards 3-5 Support Staff The problem with porters is that the system is exponenetial. One man needs a certain amount of food. You need to add a porter to carry that first man's food and he needs to carry his own food. Now, double the distance. The porter then has to carry twice as much, which will overload him, so now you have to add a man to carry the overflow, plus his own. Every time the distance increases, you find yourself needing three or four men to carry the food for themselves and one other man. Turning to mules extends the trip, but now you need to carry food for the mules. Hunting for food doesn't really help. That takes a lot of time. There is only so much edible flora and fauna near the path, and it becomes a diminishing returns system once you start hutning an area. The first few kills are easy to find, but finding more becomes harder. So, you limit the expedition to only the essentials. "Physician, Botanist, Druid" can all be held by a single person. "Linguist, Arcanist, Archaeologist" can also be a single person. "Financier" would be necessary for the creation of the expedition, but unnecessary on the trek itself. Being a dangerous expedition, unnecessary personnel are risking themselves for things they don't need. Financiers stay home and await the result. "Cook" can be a guard or a porter. Guards cannot outnumber porters, since porters need to carry their food for them, and porters will act as diggers on site, so you want enough of them to make the task short. Time on site is time you can be found and attacked. Expedition Leader Physician/Botanist/Druid Linguist/Arcanist/Archaeologist 3-5 Guards 10-12 Support Staff And, there's one position you're missing. Guide. Ideally you want a local person familiar with cultures you may stumble into. People that can help you not screw up by insulting that little village by approaching it the wrong way. "Guide" does not mean a ranger/hunter position, though that would be an excellent mulitfunction role, it means someone that helps you past the real threats -- the people.
Splendide 03-06-07, 03:24 PM	Thats why you hire some warforged, reduces food requirements.
Nuclear_Buddha 03-06-07, 05:46 PM	A bunch of local labor serves a metagame purpose as well: they act as canaries in the coal mine, so to speak. When the DM decides to let you know it's really dangerous, he's likely to use one of the locals as a warning. After all, it's bad form to introduce the killer beast by taking down a lone PC in an ambush. Better to mutilate one of the porters in some gruesome fashion and ratchet up the tension level.
Just another user 03-06-07, 06:48 PM	nobody mentioned a very important factor in this expedition, magic. Sure it is expensive, but it is to pratical to ignore, a bag of holding cut the number of porter, a wand of create food and water weight next to nothing and can feed the whole expedition for a month and more, and to nmot let all those porters go to waste a wand of animate dead could come useful (mmmh, with that heat maybe some wand of gentle repose could come useful, too). and this is just from the top of my head, what other magic items could be useful in those expeditions? And do you think would be convenient or more mundane method would be more efficient from a economic point of view?
Splendide 03-06-07, 07:03 PM	Bag of Holding would definitely be too expensive, because on any expedition like this, you have to reasonably expect that everyone will die. Who will bring the bag back? Also mages are usually not as desperate for employment as common slucks. If you can find one who has a very good reason to be a long way from Sharn, thats great.
The_Robot 03-06-07, 07:16 PM	nobody mentioned a very important factor in this expedition, magic. Sure it is expensive, but it is to pratical to ignore, a bag of holding cut the number of porter, a wand of create food and water weight next to nothing and can feed the whole expedition for a month and more, and to nmot let all those porters go to waste a wand of animate dead could come useful (mmmh, with that heat maybe some wand of gentle repose could come useful, too). i was thinking that the whole time. you can even create bigger Bag of Holding like items for crating EVERYTHING! (see the Whispers of The Vampire's Blade adventure for a locker that acts as a HUGE extra-dimensional space.) and we're talking Eberron here in general. magic has completely suplanted technology, wands to feed everyone, keep everyone healed, Leomund's Secure Shelter (Mordenkainin's Magnificant Mansion for those "proper" provosts who accompany expeditions) to house everyone, and at the very list outfit everyone in the pary with a Heward's Handy Haversack to carry most of the gear and lots of loot! really brings the number of porters down now, don't it?
Splendide 03-06-07, 07:26 PM	Magic may have supplanted technology, but it hasn't supplanted labor as the cheapest way to get things done. The amount of stuff the expedition would need to find to fund all those wands, secure shelter, Handy Haversack for everyone, really big Bags of Holding and all of that....well, it'd be epic. That is not the sort of party you send off for a speculative expedition.
Senko 03-06-07, 07:41 PM	Some interesting points and I would have thought in Eberron magic users were common enough to get one who can cast 3rd level spells on your expedition (for creating food and water). It seems the expeditions into Xendrick for even a simple thing are going to have very large amounts of NPC's along interesting, so many people to kill in an effort to scare the PC's? You could even throw something so powerful they have no chance of winning at them. The (low level) PC's are the only ones to make it out of the deep jungles battered and raving about a monster that ate everyone. Then at higher levels they come back to see what it was guarding. Hmmmm a Teratomorph would be a fun creature I think (ability to mutate players into new forms including GM discretion and hurl or drag people across dimensions).
goblin_pride 03-06-07, 09:13 PM	Magic may have supplanted technology, but it hasn't supplanted labor as the cheapest way to get things done. And if your party is kitted out with magic items that eliminate the porters, who's going to get mutilated when you cross that ferocious man-eating whatever's path on the way to the dig site?
The_Robot 03-06-07, 10:09 PM	Magic may have supplanted technology, but it hasn't supplanted labor as the cheapest way to get things done. The amount of stuff the expedition would need to find to fund all those wands, secure shelter, Handy Haversack for everyone, really big Bags of Holding and all of that....well, it'd be epic. That is not the sort of party you send off for a speculative expedition. yeah, your right, i hadn't thought of it that way, but if it is a return expedition with the express purpose of actually extracting tons of relics and artifacts from a previously explored site, then this type of equipment might be necessary. and i actually think an expedition of that kind leads to all kinds of great adventure hooks, maybe not a for a low-level party though. thiswould be an expedition that a party of seasoned explorers who have braved Xen'drik multiple times for a particular patron (say at Morgrave) to undertake. or even the capstone or a dramatic mid-point for an exploring Xen'drik based campaign. it could be "the largest expedition yet to purge the dark jungles and dangerous waterways of Xen'drik!" example: only one member of a fairly large team returns from exploring Xen,drik, he is raving mad, but claims to have seen a new ruin site, filled with all kinds of magical items and strange relics! however the place was teaming with Drow and other strange creatures, and something else...something...terrible! an eccentric Provost from Morgrave starts putting together an expedition, calling on the adventurers to help him. you could have the grandeous reporter from the Sharn Inquisitive along, looking to write the story of his life about it..."i can see it now! front page! best selling books will be written about our great adventure!" the snooty, know-it-all scholar/assistant-provost from Morgrave berating everyone and complaing about the poor weather, dangerous beasts and "all the damn bugs!" and then the porters are all Warforged who were hired in Sharn but come with no refferences and may or may not work for the Lord of Blades, who is interested in primative Warforged tech rumored to be extracted from the ruins of the continent. the eccentric provost in charge, himself. sort of a Dr. Livingston kind of guy. oh! and the grizzled, Thunder Guide expedition leader who makes Crocidile Dundee look like that guy who used to come on The Tonight Show and put snakes on Johnny Carson! *shrug* sometimes my mind works on its own. but when our current campaign runs down, i'm going to start recruiting for an exploring based campaign next i think... And if your party is kitted out with magic items that eliminate the porters, who's going to get mutilated when you cross that ferocious man-eating whatever's path on the way to the dig site? and i didn't mean no porters, just fewer porters carrying more stuff. and, you still have all the people listed above in my adventure hook example, plus the other guards, porters, and a few experts for the rumored terrible beast of unspeakable horror to tear through and eat first...
Senko 03-06-07, 10:34 PM	Hmmmm I suddenly have an image of an expedition being sent off to retreive or aquire the epic level magical items (as in the above examples bags of holding, wands, portable mansions etc) and equipment left behind when a poorly conceived and prepared but immensely wealthy expedition failed. They could even been competeting against a second expedition sent to recover the items lost by the first on the grounds possesion is 9 tenths of the law. Hmmmmm the most valuable item the map showing the location of the above posters ruin worth more than all the stuf the first expedition lost. A 3 way race between LOB warforged, the group your working for and its "rightful owner". First one to the prize wins but you not only need to recover the remains of the first expedition but also get what they were after.
goblin_pride 03-06-07, 10:37 PM	*shrug* sometimes my mind works on its own. but when our current campaign runs down, i'm going to start recruiting for an exploring based campaign next i think... That could be fun. I'd love to play a hard-nosed, steely-nerved explorer that lives off the land and needs nothing more than what he carries around in his ol' Handy Haversack. A right proper bastard that lives for discovering the ancient sites but is bored to tears by the actual excavation.
Kreistor2 03-07-07, 12:17 AM	No, you shouldn't be eliminating the porters and other "problems" of expeditions. That is the point of expeditions -- they are expeditions. There is a reason for them to be expeditions and not dungeon crawls. 1) You shouldn't allow the players to rely on magic. Remember, places like Xen'drik have problems with magic. The expedition should avoid relying on single sources for solutions to problems wherever possible. That really smart Schema of Create Food and Drink? Well, guess what... it just stopped working. So how are oyu going to feed that expedition? You didn't bring food, did you? Ooops... I guess you turn back here, because you can't assume that you will be able to hunt food in front of you. 2) The players do not know where they are going. Xen'drik is the size of North America. Okay, you're in New York. How do you get to Machu Peechu from here? Map? It's 1800, man, all you have are rumours of Machu Peechu, not a map. Good luck... 3) Digging is tiring. To prove the point that diggers are necessary, let them go once without them. A smart attacker will ait until the end of the day's digging to attack the fatigued party. Break out the fatigue rules, seriously. The point of expeditions is that they are Eberron. They are unique to Eberron. Sure, maybe it's smart to go with the old tried and true methods of taking just the party with no NPC's someplace, but you can do that in every other game world. The Eberron way is expedition, large scale. My own party is dealing with this. They need to go to the Frostfell, and deep into the mountains. We discussed how to go about getting there, and they realized all through the discussions just why expeditions are the only way. They don't know exactly where they are going. They don't know what they will face. They don't know what they'll need when they get there. They need to take a lot of stuff, food, and people.It is clearly a major effort, and not one to go about wihtout practice. So, they are starting small by doing a side quest to Xen'drik. The steps they went through... 1) Finding someone that knew what to do. They didn't. The players don't know, and the characters lacked the knowledges or background to have a real clue. 2) They need to start a company to pull this off. Start by hiring someone to manage the company. A CEO. The players didn't want to deal with that minutiae. This was a long effort. They wound up hiring a small time manager that had only done a couple minor efforts. Basically, he was good enough. (They also tried hiring someone away from Morgrave, but I don't make things that easy.) 3) This man gave them the full details. The company is set up so that you have the money properly and legally managed. You sell shares to raise financing and profit is distributed on a per share basis. (If you don't know how start-up companies deal with financing, then talk to someone you know that's either in business management or accounting. The earliest incvestors can often wind up with the smallest return on investment.) 3) Seed financing. Since the party is starting the company, they need to provide money to produce the materials necessary to attract investors. You need marketing materials, you need to pay the CEO and the early staff (sales/marketers, accountant, secretarial). 4) Market the expedition/company. This takes time. The more well known the party, the more likely people will invest in the company and the fewer shares they will demand for their investment (ie. the more profit the PC's will take home.) 5) Hire the people you need to take. My PC's had already interested an archaeologist from Morgrave, who lent legitimacy to the endeavor. he went for a flat fee and a percentage of the gross. The CEo took care of all the hiring and transportation. He hired the boat and the canal boats to take them inland. He hired the guide and porters. 6) Go on the expedition. That's where they are now. 7) Sell whatever is brought back through Wayfinder Foundation. (They want to join.) 8) Distribute profits to the investors. It is a complex process, if you want to do it the real way.
Dragom 03-07-07, 12:35 AM	Brutal detail there Kreistor2, Brutal. I'll have to show my players that list if they ever want to go on an expedition without a patron college to do all the work for them.
Kreistor2 03-07-07, 01:07 AM	That's what you have to do if you can't fund the whole thing yourself. Investors expect reports on progress during the formation stage. They demand financial reports and openness to ensure their money isn't being stolen. Etc., etc.... Just how much does it cost to fund a boat to the Frostfell, for instance? Just the boat. (You think anyone would risk an airship on an expedition to a continent that no one has ever returned from? Buy it outright if you want to do that (cha right... it's 100000GP+).) You're talking about an inherently dangerous area (north = iceberg death). Lyrandar sailing ship is 300GP/day (ExH, pg 18), but the danger is going to at least triple that. Then there's danger pay for the crew. And so on. An expedition is a huge expense. It's just not feasible for a PC group to finance it, unless the DM ignores the inherent threat to the NPC's.
Splendide 03-07-07, 01:09 AM	And thats just assuming you hire a CEO. If your PCs want to do it on the cheap, its even more involved. The most likely people to invest in a high-risk, high-return thing like this are not necessarily people whose other business is entirely legit. Maybe they want to gain shares through contra, they provide manpower *cough*, information *cough* or specialist equipment *cough*. Maybe the Cannith guy who is interested needs the investment to be made in his wife's name, or wants to use this venture to launder some money. Maybe the wealthy young noble with cash to burn wants to come along. Maybe you've got an offer to receive money from one of the churches, but there are moral strings attached. And maybe you're taking money from ALL of these people. Frankly collecting the backers needed is an awesome opportunity for roleplay, and for building in difficulties for the party before they've even left Sharn.
Kreistor2 03-07-07, 09:15 PM	Maybe the wealthy young noble with cash to burn wants to come along. Though I agree that this is a reality the group might have to face, I have no intention of presenting it the first time out. The first time out they are already overwhelmed with the project, so it is a good idea to keep the hindrances to a minimum. Stuff the other things in on later projects when they know what they are doing.