Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melvin the Mediocre 10-05-06, 01:19 PM	Much to my displeasure, the bulk of my players are insisting that their characters are those elites who are "in the know" of all Eberron's deepest darkest secrets. They all want to be the super elite members of the Emerals Claw, or top notch BoV cultist/priests. So just to screw with them, I've been thinking about twisting the every-player-knows-them secrets of Eberron. Like every player knows that Errandis d'Vol is still creeping around somewhere and that thanks to her, King Kaius III is Vampiric Kaius I. So what if those were just rumors? What if Errandis was quickly put down by the Chamber and the rest of the war was just to make sure no one tried that little stunt again. Then you would have to ask who started the rumors? My gut reaction is the Dreaming Dark. But why? And who really leads the Emerald Claw? And why did Kaius III split with the Blood of Vol? And what is the DD (or anyone else) doing to perpetuate the rumors? So I'm thinking I can answer some of those. Kaius 3 may have initially believed that the Blood of Vol was a positive and inspiring religion that encouraged followers to be all that they could be. When he found out the darker aspects of the religion he was horrified and broke away from following. Or perhaps he was once a dark and sinister priest in the cult until he was turned around by run in with a couatl. Perhaps Count Vedim ir'Omik secretly heads the Emerald Claw, and even the whole Blood of Vol keeping rumors of Errandis alive in order to divert attention from himself. Or as a tool of fear to keep his soldiers and priests in line. Or maybe everything is just like it is in the book, and these could all be red herrings to throw out at my players for confusion. In which case I have to ask, why might either the Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, or the Daelkyr want to delude a band of adventurers?
Kreistor1 10-05-06, 01:46 PM	Yes, you have to do something to change things. I think it's rude of your players to put you in this position, but if that's all you've got, then c'est la vie. Alternatively, you could make heavy use of the less well defined parts of the world. The Rakshasa Rajahs are held in many places. You could center an event around one of those undefined places. Sure, make them an "in the know group" in the BoV, and then Kaius wins, and the BoV gets wrecked as the kick-off to the campaign.The entire BoV is scattered, and there's no one they can turn to that would use the information they have against Kaius III. Are Karrnathi nationals going to tell Breland that Kaius III is who he is? That would unite all of the other three against him, and Karrnath would be gone forever. Having information and that information being important are two different things. Big secrets can become useless in moments.
Melvin the Mediocre 10-05-06, 02:01 PM	I'm not so much going for the ruination of all their character concepts, I'm trying to put some edge back into the game. If they all want to be involved in the BoV, then I am perfctly willing to run a game that they find interesting. Actually I like the BoV quite a bit as well. But I want them back on their toes, going "Hey, what's really going on here?" instead of "Let me read every mention in every source book of everything I'm interested in" so that there are no secrets left.
Melvin the Mediocre 10-05-06, 02:04 PM	PS - I really wanted my game to revolve around the Daelkyr and how they manipulate the friction between Aundair and the Eldeen Reaches to their advantage. However my players are stubbornly (and purposefully) refusing to take the bait. While that is dissapointing, I understand it is not part of the setting that appeals to them. So I'm trying to make it appeal to them by tying it up in something that is important and central to their character concepts.
aelryinth 10-05-06, 02:35 PM	Just wait til your players find out that the high ups in the Blood of Vol aren't undead priests, they are mindflayers and beholders posing as undead priests, and Vol herself is actually a mindflayer lich and the most powerful servant of the Daelkyr Lord of Change, having offed Vol long ago and manipulating generations of humans for one primary purpose...all that blood makes for powerful magic to free their dark lord, and the dupes-er, players-are going to be the final sacrifice to set him completely free, along with the completely innocent King Kaius III. And the powerful human servants who graduate to being 'in the know?' Brain food, yessir. Once they are undead and perfectly under control, you realize they dont' even NEED grey matter, right? So, let's deprive them of it ahead of time. What, their superiors in the Church are lying to them? Shocking, absolutely sshocking! I guess you can't trust anything you read in books these days. ===Aelryinth
Archangel62 10-05-06, 02:48 PM	Well... I'll throw a few ideas out, we'll see what works as it goes. 1) Vol might want them to go to Xen'Drik or other areas where there is ancient undead lore. 2) Consider that the Order of the Closed circle had bases in what is now Dhaakan, the same place where Dalkyr and their servants are hidden. Maybe start the campaign with the idea of a chain reaction with them working for or with one of those trapped lords. 3) They want to be 'in the know' wonderful, but now you can have some fun with them another way. If they try exposing Kaius then they WILL get attacked by the order because doing that will undermine their appearance and create an obscene amount of chaos in the ranks. 4) Mind flayers are mortally afraid of undead, only things that can't be mind blasted or flayed. So...what if the party learns about rumors of Mind flayers moving around have them do this as sort of a PR thing for the Blood of Vol. If you want to trick your players the Dalkyr aren't likely to be the deluders, too many of their servants are harmed or in some way hampered by undead. Possibly the dreaming dark, but once they become undead they can't be hit. The Lords of Dust would be good, the most reasonable of the setup, but changing things like that might cause more hiccups. Maybe have one of them get a vision during a blood trip to begin a quest, all of it caused by the Lords of Dust.
ENHenry 10-05-06, 03:14 PM	A great DM once said "plot is what happens when the players don't intervene." So, the Daelkyr are up to something sneaky in they Reaches? OK, they succeed. The PCs receive news that Aundair is building up armies in the west, and tensions are rising between the Aundairans and the Reachers. A few months later in game-time, and the Reach and Aundair are at open war. This impacts trade, alliances, travel, etc. all across Khorvaire. This may get them interested enough to investigate, it may not; meanwhile, the Blood of Vol is moving againstt the Dreaming Dark in big, unsubtle ways - ones which will get the PCs involved whether they want to or not. Don't forget to keep the world moving even if the PCs aren't interacting with a part of it. Remind them through headlines, criers, and broadsheets that other things are going on besides them.
Melvin the Mediocre 10-05-06, 03:18 PM	Just wait til your players find out that the high ups in the Blood of Vol ...are mindflayers and beholders posing as undead priests, and Vol herself is actually a mindflayer lich and the most powerful servant of the Daelkyr Lord of Change, having offed Vol long ago and manipulating generations of humans for one primary purpose...all that blood makes for powerful magic to free their dark lord, and the dupes-er, players-are going to be the final sacrifice to set him completely free, along with the completely innocent King Kaius III. That's pretty much in line with what I've been thinking. A mindflayer lich? Now that is a nice touch. I really want to get the party to assinate Kaius III and finally find out he isn't a vampire right there. If Errandis (the mindflayer) walks out right then to finish them off so as to release the Stained One (my villian of choice) that could be really beautiful.
Melvin the Mediocre 10-05-06, 03:29 PM	The PCs receive news that Aundair is building up armies in the west, and tensions are rising between the Aundairans and the Reachers. A few months later in game-time, and the Reach and Aundair are at open war...Don't forget to keep the world moving even if the PCs aren't interacting with a part of it. Remind them through headlines, criers, and broadsheets that other things are going on besides them. Oh yes, that is happening already and the PCs know it. Moreover they have a pretty good idea the druids are not the terrorists that they are being portrayed to be. They just haven't done anything about it. Like tell anyone. Though they have been offered much gold for that sort of information. But I finally have one PC on orders of House Thuranni to infiltrate the Knight Phantoms. And since the Knights are all being called to shore up the Aundair/Eldeen border I'm going to drag the party in one way or another :P. Now I need to start bringing in the Emerald Claw which is the part I am least happy about, but the player was really stoked about them. That is why I'm twisting things around :D
Androlphas 10-06-06, 01:08 AM	Player: "My character knows Erandis d'Vol is a lich behind the Blood of Vol and the Order of the Emerald Claw." DM: "Is that so? Can he prove it?" PC: "Umm...well page ### of the ECS says..." DM: " No, can your character prove it?" PC: "Well, not exactly, but..." DM: " Right, you work on that. Back to the game - The halfling barmaid listens to your strange conspiracy theories with a bored expression, then, with an exasperated voice says: are you going to order something or what?"
eehamburg 10-06-06, 10:05 AM	Exactly the point here. You need to separate what the character knows from what the player knows. Sometimes, players get in over their heads and know more than they should and that's fine. The distinction comes in when they believe that their character knows the same thing that they know. How does their character know this? There is never a good answer for this. So .. enforce this distinction and let your players know that just because they know doesn't mean that their characters know and that they have to play it that way otherwise, the game doesn't work.
Melvin the Mediocre 10-06-06, 10:00 PM	Exactly the point here. You need to separate what the character knows from what the player knows. Sometimes, players get in over their heads and know more than they should and that's fine. The distinction comes in when they believe that their character knows the same thing that they know. How does their character know this? There is never a good answer for this. Never say never. My players actually have very interesting character backgrounds that explain why the characters should know what they know. Sure as the DM I can just say "No you are wrong" or "No you can't play that." But I hate playing under DM's that poop all over my creativity, and I don't want to be that sort of DM. I admit I tried to steer them away from the decisions that they made, but not in an overbearing "ha-ha I'm in charge" sort of way. More in a diplomatic attempt to guide them sort of way. But they were insistent. So my challenge now is to allow them to keep the characters they have created, and continue to enjoy the game, but still make things shadowy, unclear, and hidden. In short, I am not looking for people to to tell me I have the right to say no. I'm looking for help exploring ways to twist Eberron in subtle devilish ways and still leave it an Eberron the characters can explore and enjoy.
eehamburg 10-09-06, 09:27 AM	Yes .. but see if they have creative ways and ideas for knowing what they know then that's fine, but if you read what I wrote, I said that the players should never play the characters as though they have more knowledge then they should ... meaning that they should play the characters with the knowledge that the character would have, not the knowledge of the player.
Sereno 10-09-06, 09:55 AM	Much to my displeasure, the bulk of my players are insisting that their characters are those elites who are "in the know" of all Eberron's deepest darkest secrets. They all want to be the super elite members of the Emerals Claw, or top notch BoV cultist/priests. What do your players think gives them the "right" to this secret knowledge? What level are they? How many ranks in the various Knowledge skills do they have? What actual connections to these organizations do they have? If they're so "in the know" about Erandis or Kaius, why are they not A) highly placed in the organization(s) with no time for "adventuring" or B) being ruthlessly hunted for having dangerous knowledge and being on the loose?
Always-Late 10-09-06, 06:30 PM	If your players want to play marshals, generals, high-ranking aristocrats, or high priests, you can 1. Let them play marshals and generals, and upscale everything. 2. Let them play marshals and generals totally oblivious to this massive behind-the-scenes conspiracy, which will end up with their overthrow and relinquishment of their commands. When they complain, say, "I warned you shouldn't have played high-ranking officials." 3. Let them play marshals, generals, aristocats, and high priests. Then, two minutes into the campaign, say, "Marshals, generals, aristocrats, high priests, kings, scions, lords, and that sort don't go adventuring. Roll up new characters." Or get some NPC factions to assassinate them. Same result. 4. Say, "Sorry, I don't want to DM that." They want to be in the know. Tell them that you don't want to run that. Don't "surprise" them.
D1Tremere 10-10-06, 03:30 PM	Just my openions based on games I play in. Players want to be Conan, not some guy who lugs his garbage around. It's only natural for the players to want to be elite, as they are tradeing money and time to play a game where they are better then there real life selves in some fantastic way. I feel sorry for the player who, for example, spends 8 hours a day being told what to do by his boss just to pay rent, then goes to a game where he's just doing some shlump job for another schlump boss. As for the knowledge, it has a suggested knowledge DC for most things. I'd say if they can hit the DC they deserve to know (Though some of these things can only be known whan justified by role playing elements). Over all, if your players are enjoying themselves, let them. I'm pritty sure that's the point of the game.
Glupinickname 10-11-06, 04:40 AM	Over all, if your players are enjoying themselves, let them. I'm pritty sure that's the point of the game. And it's also the point of the game that DM enjoys it too, and Melvin doesn't sound all that happy about it. Melvin, think about what kind of you want to run and what kind of game your players want to play. Discuss with them what would they want to do in-game and, if possible, try to reach some compromise. My two coppers.
Ravenscroft 10-11-06, 10:08 AM	If Kaius finds out that his secret is compromised , then he will set events in motion to thwart or discredit the Player who knows. Direct assassination attempts could be used as misdirection to this end. Have the player found out to be a spy for Kaius (especially if they are not) and let this information leak to various rival spy networks. Not all Greater Undead are tied up with Vol. One of my PCs is a Deathknight Cleric of the Keeper. Part of his mission is to send other Greater Undead to the Keeper. If the players are "in the know" for all these cool secrets , then how well are they protected against telepaths? Are they Scry-proof? How well or fast can they relay information if needed. Have someone pre-empt Teleport Services from House Orien or priority messaging by House Sivis when they really need it. This is not to just screw the players over , but if they are tied up with House Thurrani , then they can expect the resources of several national spy services and House Phiarlan to be used against them. Throw in "The Cabinet of Faces" as well. They are really good at playing the impersonation game and could be used to add another disinformation factor to the Campaign.