Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SirUrza 03-18-06, 06:09 PM	I've heard/read on more then one occassion "that if it exists in D&D, it has a place in Eberron," but I've never actually seen/heard it out of anyone from Wizards of the Coast. So I'm curious, is this just misinformation? If it's not, can someone point out to when (and preferably where) this has been said about Eberron. A lot of times I've seen people ask questions about Moradin and Corellon and there is no answer to how THEY fit into Eberron, that they don't exist, such and such exists. It seems very contradictory to me for that kinda statement to be said when it's totally untrue.
Edymnion 03-18-06, 06:16 PM	Basically, the people saying that have just been skimming the ECS and not really reading it. Right at the very start of the book (page 8, if memory serves), it has a list of the 10 things to know when playing Eberron. #1 says "If its in D&D, it has a place in Eberron", and people just seem to glance at that and not bother to actually read what it says under that. It goes on to specify that only the core rulebooks material has a place in Eberron by default. But even then there is core stuff that isn't in Eberron. The gods are totally missing (there is no Moradin), and the subraces from the MM are missing as well.
Bluebrush 03-18-06, 06:22 PM	The basic idea is that if you want to put something into your game, there's somewhere you could possibly place it in Eberron. Xen'drik, the Mournland, the Daelkyr, all these and more give you good places to insert monsters from a variety of weird sources. There's deserts, tundras, civilisations and wilds, allowing for a wide variety of adventure environments and origins. It wouldn't be the case for, say, a frozen totally tundra world, where you'd have no sandy deserts or for a world with no icecaps or major cities.
Edymnion 03-18-06, 06:26 PM	The basic idea is that if you want to put something into your game, there's somewhere you could possibly place it in Eberron.Yes, there are places you *could* put just about anything in Eberron, but that doesn't mean its there by default. If you want Catfolk or Warlocks in your Eberron, there are places to put them, but they do not exist in the setting until you intentionally put them there yourself.
SirUrza 03-18-06, 06:44 PM	So basically it refers more to 3E mechanics and not so much about culture. That's good to know.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 03-18-06, 06:44 PM	I'd like to reaffirm the point, just because I see it misinterpreted so often. That point is explaining the versatility of Eberron and how easy it is to integrate almost any new or old material into the world. It means that anything in the core rules can be placed in Eberron, but that doesn't neccessarily mean it should. The example of the gods Correllon and Moradin is actually a pretty good one. I would never dream of using these gods, since they are Greyhawk/FR gods, just in the same way I'd never use Dol Dorn in an FR game. However, if I wanted to include Correllon and Moradin, it's really easy to do so. The Sovereign Host is found across the globe, though the names of the gods often differ from those of the Five Nations. It may be possible that Moradin is actually Onatar, and when the Mror Holds were conquered by Galifar the dwarves simply adopted the human name. Though you should note that in canon Eberron, Moradin does not exist in any way, shape or form (at the moment).
prototype00 03-18-06, 07:09 PM	He he he Garum Umesh, the ancient Orc god of war worshipped in the shadow marches, replaced by Dol Dorn. He he he. prototype00
SirUrza 03-18-06, 07:15 PM	Sounds like they need to release a religion/faith book for Eberron to detail some of the god conversions AND origin stories. Elves have clearly evolved, and because they were a slave race 1000s of years ago that doesn't mean Corellon didn't/doesn't exist, it's just that they/he abandoned him or their culture evolved to what it is worsing their undead. In any case, classic gods of D&D, and any CORE material should be fit into Eberron, even if Eberron were to make Corellon forgotten god and Moradin a renamed god. But I know wizards doesn't have the balls to do something like that. :P
AvonRekaes 03-18-06, 07:37 PM	Sounds like they need to release a religion/faith book for Eberron to detail some of the god conversions AND origin stories. Elves have clearly evolved, and because they were a slave race 1000s of years ago that doesn't mean Corellon didn't/doesn't exist, it's just that they/he abandoned him or their culture evolved to what it is worsing their undead. In any case, classic gods of D&D, and any CORE material should be fit into Eberron, even if Eberron were to make Corellon forgotten god and Moradin a renamed god. But I know wizards doesn't have the balls to do something like that. :P The problem with gods, specifically, is that Eberron runs divine beings and faith very very differently from other settings. Corellon and Moradin don't automatically fit in eberron because they just don't exist. There are no racial gods or pantheons in Eberron. Secondly, not even the Sovreign Host's gods are definately real. No god has ever spoken directly to a worshiper, not even through Commune or other such things. No one has ever managed to Plane Shift to a god's home and see him in person. This is why normal gods don't necessarily have a place in Eberron's faith structure. In Eberron, faith is actually faith, not a word for "power derived from gods". Moradin DOES EXIST in Greyhawk and FR. You can Plane Shift to Mount Celestia and, assuming you get past his guards and the red tape, actually TALK with him in PERSON. THATS why alot of people are against importing Greyhawk/FR gods into Eberron. GH/FR goes definately exist, and the definitive existance of Gods in Eberron actually ruins the feel of divine magic in the setting. That said, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with Garu-Umesh in the PGtE. The book never claimed that Garu-Umesh talked to his followers or fought side-by-side with them, and as long as 'divine conversions' are done in the Eberron style (where the existance of the god is still in question and CANNOT BE PROVEN BY ANY MEANS), I say go for it.
Edymnion 03-18-06, 07:42 PM	Sounds like they need to release a religion/faith book for Eberron to detail some of the god conversions AND origin stories. Elves have clearly evolved, and because they were a slave race 1000s of years ago that doesn't mean Corellon didn't/doesn't exist, it's just that they/he abandoned him or their culture evolved to what it is worsing their undead. In any case, classic gods of D&D, and any CORE material should be fit into Eberron, even if Eberron were to make Corellon forgotten god and Moradin a renamed god. But I know wizards doesn't have the balls to do something like that. :PActually, Faiths of Eberron is the next book on the docket ;)
RagingDemon 03-18-06, 08:02 PM	Sounds like they need to release a religion/faith book for Eberron to detail some of the god conversions AND origin stories. Elves have clearly evolved, and because they were a slave race 1000s of years ago that doesn't mean Corellon didn't/doesn't exist, it's just that they/he abandoned him or their culture evolved to what it is worsing their undead. In any case, classic gods of D&D, and any CORE material should be fit into Eberron, even if Eberron were to make Corellon forgotten god and Moradin a renamed god. But I know wizards doesn't have the balls to do something like that. :P Well, I really DON' T want them to fit Corellon or other core gods into Eberron. Maybe they give some sidebars with completely optional material providing suggestions on how to treat core gods (ie, Moradin is a different name for Onatar etc) but I don' t want a canon in that subject. Actually I' d vomit if I saw core gods into this world. I don' t want Corellon to be a forgotten deity, I don' t want him to have even exist for a second (if gods exist). A name change to a Sovereign would be more acceptable although I prefer not to mention core gods at all. If I want Vecna or Corellon or Wee-Jas or another core deity, I prefer to play GH or FR. And since I like Eberron the way it is I leave those gods out as I would do so for Eberron gods if I played GH or FR... Onatar is NOT an FR god and Lolth is NOT an Eberron one... I also hate to use everything that ever existed in my campaigns. I find it to be like making a salad of every kind of vegetables available. It' d look like a total mess! So, no subraces for me unless mentioned as a canon or fit the world as best as possible with a complete AND nice background story (few do and even then I rarely use them). No moon/sun/high/low/left/right/grey/green/pink/blue elves, just elves and drow. No mountain/hill/deep/hollow/empty/full/super-duper/fat/slim dwarves, only dwarves and duergar (maybe). No tallfellow/deep/big-footed/hobbitlike/braveheart/all-mighty halflings, just halflings! The same is true for all other core races. I only find few kinds of monsters that have subraces that fit the world and I like the variety of goblins and giants. I don' t want to argue with you or make you think that I' m the correct one and you' re the wrong. It' s ultimately your call when it comes to these matters. I' m just stating my opinion and the way I view the campaing setting I love
Euangelion 03-18-06, 08:23 PM	Actually, Faiths of Eberron is the next book on the docket ;) After Secrets of Xen'drik, you mean! ;) I've heard/read on more then one occassion "that if it exists in D&D, it has a place in Eberron," but I've never actually seen/heard it out of anyone from Wizards of the Coast. So I'm curious, is this just misinformation? If it's not, can someone point out to when (and preferably where) this has been said about Eberron. Quoted in the first web article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eb/20031216a) on the Eberron setting, December 16, 2003, which is also found verbatim on page 8 in the ECS: If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron. A monster or spell or magic item from the core rulebooks might feature a twist or two to account for Eberron's tone and attitude, but otherwise everything in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual has a place somewhere in Eberron. However, on page 15 of the Players Guide to Eberron it states: The EBERRON Campaign Setting discusses the role that each character class presented in the Player's Handbook plays in Eberron, and also addresses psionic classes. Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, and the Minatures Handbook all present new standard classes (as well as a wealth of prestige classes). Since the rule of thumb is "If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron," characters of all these new classes exist in Eberron. They are simply being more inclusive now that there are many more 3.5 books out now than there were when the ECS was being put together. Is the principle being applied differently now that it was in the beginning? Maybe, but that really started with Sharn:City of Towers which even included material from Book of Exalted Deeds. Eberron is a living setting, and it only makes financial sense that they apply the "Everything that's in D&D..." principle as broadly as possible. I can understand that this annoys some people, but I've decided to approach this issue from the standpoint of how it is rather than how it should be. But the DMG states that the DM is the final authority as to what's in each campaign, so that trumps anything published in any Eberron sourcebook.
Edymnion 03-18-06, 08:36 PM	However, on page 15 of the Players Guide to Eberron it states: The EBERRON Campaign Setting discusses the role that each character class presented in the Player's Handbook plays in Eberron, and also addresses psionic classes. Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, and the Minatures Handbook all present new standard classes (as well as a wealth of prestige classes). Since the rule of thumb is "If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron," characters of all these new classes exist in Eberron.Yeah, I think everybody knows my stance on the "everything and the kitchen sink" viewpoint. ;) I can understand that it this annoys some peopleSee? He knows :D
prototype00 03-19-06, 01:17 AM	Y'know what I think, Eberron is kind of like Greyhawk in the future, with all the gods boiled down to their most basic constituents as the pantheons fuse together, so Gruumsh became Garu-Umesh,was subsued by Dol Dorn the personification (or orcification or dwarfication) of war. Even in FR, as the Mulhorandi culture melds more with mainstream, the Mulhorand pantheon is in danger of disappearing. I think this has already happened on Eberron. Which is why we have a single pantheonic system, instead of multiple racial pantheons. Y'on-all-a, Cor-A'Lon and Mor 'din the Maker probably all just got assimilated by Dol Dorn, Dol Arrah and the rest of them, just like Garu-Umesh. "Researchers of Morgrave discover lost temple to ancient creator deity in the wilds of Xen'drik, Eldritch inscriptions identify god as K'eithan Bakkar, Churches of sovreign host in uproar." Sounds like Eberron to me. prototype00
Thramzorean 03-19-06, 09:25 AM	The bottom line here is that you can put whatever you like into your Eberron. That is one of the real strengths and excellent points of the setting and why it is so popular - it has been very well set up to allow anything really to a greater or lesser degree. It's not a blank check unless you want to complete throw away the original flavor of the setting but heck, you can do that if you really want to, and there isn't much you couldn't fit in in some way and keep the overall feel. Okay you can say that about any setting but at the end of the day Eberron remains exceptionally robust and resilient to infusions of personal wierdness ;)
(Psi)SeveredHead 03-19-06, 11:17 AM	Well, Keith Baker's quote on this is in my signature. Sure you can put what you want in Eberron, but it should make sense to your campaign. As for talk of deities, I like how Eberron handles things. I do not want to see Paladine, Mystra, or whoever walking the Earth and saving the lives of boytoys, nor do I want so many plots being cooked up by deities instead of actual NPCs.
Setherial 03-20-06, 02:25 AM	I think it comes down to this: "I have a cool new compaign setting, but don't worry, you don't have to throw away all your old books to use it, everything still fits"... then you read on and you discover it doesn't fit but by then you are hooked because it is a great setting. It's called sales talk !
RagingDemon 03-20-06, 08:53 AM	I think it comes down to this: "I have a cool new compaign setting, but don't worry, you don't have to throw away all your old books to use it, everything still fits"... then you read on and you discover it doesn't fit but by then you are hooked because it is a great setting. It's called sales talk ! that' s correct... i couldn' t agree more... also, maybe everything actually has a place in eberron. but not in MY eberron... if any of my players wish to believe in obad-hai, corellon etc, i tell them to either choose one of the setting' s deities or think an extremely good reason to believe in them, other than some rumor/fact that onatar was named moradin in some local mror clans or places or stuff like that. and because the latter rarely happens they turn to one of the sovereigns in most of the cases.
Jaeden 03-20-06, 02:32 PM	Everything does fit, and like every other setting it has It's OWN Pantheon for people to believe in. Part of the essence in Eberron is you don't have personal conversations with your God. It's like in Constantine when he's talking to Gabriel(paraphrashing) "I believe, Gabriel." "No you don't, you know." In other settings, you KNOW that x God is there, you could go talk to him/her/it. In Eberron, you have to believe.
Takasi 03-20-06, 06:57 PM	Eberron as a setting is similar to The Movies game. You have a ton of backdrops for almost any type of story you want to tell. Some of the less "traditional" fantasy elements are perfect examples of the hodgepodge within the setting. In what other D&D setting can you run a campaign with a train robbery straight out of Wild Wild West, a Terminator-esque battle in an apocalyptic wasteland and an Indiana Jones race to a skyship with dinosaur riding pygmies? To be able to say you can have all of that but you can't have Dragonborn or Sun Elves or whatever else is contradictory to the original feel of the setting IMO. It is supposed to be the "everything and the kitchen sink" setting. The Sovereign Host is unique to Eberron and special because of its assimilative nature. From a metagame perspective Moradin has just as much existence as Onatar has; neither one is more real than the other. The Sovereign Host is dominant because it has an (unprovable by nature) answer for incorporating every other pantheistic religion that has come before it. Just like the world of Eberron, the mythology of the Sovereign Host acts as a backdrop for any religious story you can think of. Like Eberron's moral relativism, the Sovereign Host tends not to deal with absolutes. In other D&D settings, gods are racial. Kurtulmak looks like a kobold, and kobolds worship him. In Eberron, a tribe of primitive kobolds might worship a god named Kurtulmak with all of the religious myths of the traditional Greyhawk/FR deity. What makes Eberron different (better IMO) is that now you can have a backdrop similar to the movie "The Mission". Sovereign Host missionaries are given funds to "protect" a tribe of kobolds in exchange for their conversion to the Host. The missionaries would look at the kobold myths and separate them into distinct parts. They would be taught that gods can change form (perhaps bringing a changeling along to demonstrate this). They would show that Kurtulmak is actually aspects of three deities: Aureon (the crafty one), Boldrei (the protector) and the Mockery (the great trickster), all three of which "have been depicted as kobolds throughout history" according to the missionaries. All it takes is a little gold or intimidation to get one of the head shamans to convert, and since he retains all of the power he did when he worshipped Kurtulmak then the rest of the kobolds will have to believe the old god was just an aspect of the "true gods". The fact that gods aren't tied to a single race allows the Sovereign Host, and Khorvaire in general, to be more "cosmopolitan" than with traditional religions. However, there will always be those who remember "the old gods". They will be a very special small minority, which is always a good characteristic for protagonists (and antagonists).
il Kav 03-20-06, 07:14 PM	no.
AvonRekaes 03-21-06, 12:32 AM	I think what il Kav is trying to say is that he politely disagrees. Ahem. While I agree with a few of your points Takasi, there are some places where my opinion differs. Moradin is in fact "more real" than a Sovreign, because in Greyhawk/Fr you can go to his home plane and witness him in all his divine glory. If you are influential or powerful enough you can talk or fight him. This isn't so for Eberron deities. Whether they exist or not, it remains a mystery. So they can be said to be "less real". So if you *did* want to bring in GH/FR gods into Eberron as "old gods", then they are just as mysterious an intangible as Sovreign gods. Thats the only sticking point I have.
Sereno 03-21-06, 09:37 AM	I think the primary point to understand is that although anything CAN fit, that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING DOES fit. Eberron is designed such that individual DMs are free to find a place to fit anything they want. It was NOT designed with a pre-defined place for EVERYTHING THAT HAS EVER BEEN DESIGNED OR WILL BE DESIGNED IN THE FUTURE. Certainly, some things make much less sense in Eberron (like half-dragons, or "dragonkin", or other pantheon's gods) but they can still be shoehorned in if a DM really wants them to be. That doesn't mean that every god from every campaign setting ever published is already lurking somewhere on Eberron!
Urko 03-21-06, 11:03 AM	In any case, classic gods of D&D, and any CORE material should be fit into Eberron, even if Eberron were to make Corellon forgotten god and Moradin a renamed god. But I know wizards doesn't have the balls to do something like that. :P I personally think this is a bad idea. I mean, what's the point of having a unique setting if you're going to dilute that setting by shoving in stuff that is part of other settings? We've already seen the beginnings of this in PgtE. It has me very worried that WotC will continue to erode the uniqueness of Eberron in order to appeal to a wider market. Of course, if they do take that route, they lose, not me. I've got more material already than I could use in several lifetimes, so if they do try to smash Eberron/Faerun/Greyhawk into one bland, indistinguishable mush,* I just stop buying the books. Dollars are the only votes that count. Umm, got a little off-topic in my self-righteous ranting there. * Not a slam on Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk - my point is that each setting has its own unique appeal and breaking down the barriers between them harms ALL of them. Go to the Forgotten Realms board and suggest that the Dragonmarked Houses should be shoehorned into Faerun and you'll see what I mean.
mhacdebhandia 03-21-06, 11:28 AM	I think it's more appropriate to take what you like about elements of other settings and find a way to introduce them into Eberron without simply shoehorning them in as-is. Do you even need the name Corellon to have a sect of elves in the Eldeen Reaches who follow a similar faith?
SirUrza 03-21-06, 11:34 AM	I guess I just come from a different generation of player that liked all the campaign settings being interconnected via the Planes, where some things were constant, other things were not.
Edymnion 03-21-06, 11:55 AM	I guess I just come from a different generation of player that liked all the campaign settings being interconnected via the Planes, where some things were constant, other things were not.Ah, a Planescaper/Spelljammer :) Yeah, its a personal preferance thing. I personally thought the standard settings were getting horribly stale and dry. They all pretty much boiled down to the same Tolkien rip-off, and you didn't really get anything new from one setting to another because they all used the same basic framework and just changed a few names and events. Its why I loved Eberron from the moment I actually sat down and read it (hated it before that, when all I had heard was the hearsay). It wasn't a retread of the same old stuff, everything was new and fresh (and I like to try and make sure it stays new and fresh, and doesn't just get dumbed down to match all of the other settings).
mhacdebhandia 03-21-06, 01:06 PM	I absolutely adored Planescape and really liked Spelljammer, but what I loved about both settings was not the fact that they tied Oerth and Krynn and Toril together per se. Rather, I loved them for the original elements each setting had to its name, and thought the connections to other settings was a secondary element of the fun.
Thramzorean 03-21-06, 09:31 PM	Its why I loved Eberron from the moment I actually sat down and read it (hated it before that, when all I had heard was the hearsay). Heh, I'd love to dig up one of those old threads where people were espousing their undying love or undying hatred of Eberron even before the setting was released ;) On topic: I'd always liked being able to tie my world into other worlds. I got interested in D&D building my own world and certainly I can see where people would like to be able to have a cross-over with Eberron - but just because it takes a little more work doesn't mean it isn't doable. And I like the fact that Eberron is designed to be contained. It keeps authors and players focused on developing the setting in a cohesive manner, not running off looking for a Ravenloft to add to the genre. (not knocking Ravenloft!!!!). Okay, so they've made some gestures for marketing and gamers who want to bring stuff in. But we can be reasonably assured that isn't the ongoing trend. The listed material to come out this year is again purely focused on the setting. I.e. anything can have a place in YOUR Eberron but WotC haven't gone down the slippery slope of encouraging shoe horning everything into it.
Takasi 03-22-06, 06:34 PM	It isn't so much about tying in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms so you can plane shift or connect "crystal spheres" together. It's about taking classic ideas that all players know and adding a fresh spin on them. It's the same D&D, but different. For example, in Greyhawk you have the Wind Dukes of Aqaa. In Eberron, the Wind Dukes were a race of sorceror humanoids that lived during the Age of Demons. They built a hidden civilization on the cloud borders of Eberron and Siberys. High above their previous demonic overlords, they were sought out by the dragons to join them in the wars against the rajah armies. The Wind Dukes searched the planes for power and found the Rod of Law on Daanvi and used it to destroy a powerful rajah. The remaining rajahs targeted the Wind Dukes and eventually destroyed most of them. This is one way of taking a classic D&D story (Rod of Seven Parts) and adding a different (Eberron) spin to it.