Evil Flame, Good Vol [Archive] - Wizards Community

Evil Flame, Good Vol [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
emeraldstreak
08-10-05, 06:46 PM I found a Core rule that can manage Eberron blurred alignments quite well. Perhaps I am not the first one to cite it here, but there are still many people baffled by Eberron's corrupt clergy mechanics.

The Monster Manual Glossary
Alignment Subtype entires, i.e. pages 308/309 Evil Subtype

Any effect that depends of alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment.

The religious alignment aura of clerics/paladins in Eberron can be used "in place" of the alignment subtype. A NE cleric of the Silver Flame will detect as Lawful cleric, Good cleric and evil creature, and will be Chaos Hammered, Holy Smiten, etc. accordingly. When it comes to one-or-the-other effects, as turning/rebuking undead, the religious alignment aura will take precedence. So, evil Flame clerics will cure wounds and turn undead.

Effects that are not strictly one-or-the-other will be limited by both "alignments", evil Flame clerics will be unable to cast spells with the chaotic or evil descriptor. However, such clerics won't be able to cast spells with the good descriptor as well. They won't be able to choose the Good domain.

Overall, this rule seems to hurt clerics that oppose their deity's alignment in Eberron, however, having a different alignment than the one people presume can be a great boon for corrupt clerics of good churches, but also for good clerics of Evil churches, once because players get interesting character options and twice because NPCs get the chance to convince the PCs that the world is not black and white only, posing intriguing moral dilemmas.
Necr0mancer
08-10-05, 07:12 PM The ECS says that any cleric can cast any spell regardless of alignment. Evil clerics can cast Protection from Evil, and good clerics can Create Undead if they felt like it.

And they can even do so without fearing losing their cleric abilities!
KP91
08-10-05, 07:33 PM And they can even do so without fearing losing their cleric abilities!
But they might lose their permission in the church.
emeraldstreak
08-10-05, 07:38 PM Spells are not that much of a problem, but I can't imagine preparing positive or negative energy way every morning. Why? Because the Silver Flame can't give you negative energy, and Vol can't give you positive one. So no changing inflict/rebuke to cure/turn.

Anyway, my important point is there is core rule precedence of blurred alignments.
KP91
08-10-05, 07:51 PM Silver Flame can easily give you inflict spells for fighting evil. Demons take damage from negative energy not positive, and the Flame is a religion about fighting demons.
emeraldstreak
08-10-05, 08:02 PM Negative energy is inherently evil, go check the pure negative energy undead monsters in the MM. It can be used against fiends, yes, but I don't think the Flame can harbor it.

And what about Vol or the Undying court. They absolutely cannot give the opposing type of energy, that's why they split the first time.
zambuka
08-10-05, 09:09 PM Why? Because the Silver Flame can't give you negative energy, and Vol can't give you positive one. So no changing inflict/rebuke to cure/turn.
Eberron is different to most settings. The Silver flame does not give worshippers any energy, positive or negative. Vol does not grant worshippers their powers. No power is ever "given" by divine forces in Eberron.

This is why in Eberron a Cleric can get clerical abilities while worshipping a god, the ideals of Vol, a fallen angel or even just a mouldy old piece of cheese. Provided the cleric has complete faith he will have power.

Sure his turning abilities and spontaneous casting will be determined by his religeon, but otherwise any other spells are purely choice. Your lawful good Flamer can raise himself an army of zombies without fear of losing powers (although it will slowly corrupt his alignment). A Chaotic evil worshipper of the Devourer can happily throw out protection from evil spells all day long.

The corrupt clergy mechanics are only baffling if you keep thinking of religeons in Eberron like religeons in other settings. ie it is the gods who have the final say in who can or cannot cast certain spells. In Ebrrron the gods have absolutley no say in it at all. What a cleric can or cannot cast is purely determined by what that cleric believes he should be able to cast.

The only limitations are the aligned domains, not individual spells. eg High Cardinal Krozan (LE) can cast spells with the good descriptor, but can't take the Good domain. A chaotic good cleric of the flame could cast spells with the lawful or evil alignment but couldn't take the law domain.

You may have found an interesting core rule, but the rules in the ECS supercede that rule.
Kid SixXx
08-10-05, 09:33 PM Negative energy is inherently evil, go check the pure negative energy undead monsters in the MM.

Not true.

Use of negative energy itself is not evil. Only use of negative energy spells with the Evil descriptor is an inherently evil act. Using negative energy to rebuke undead is also a somewhat sketchy moral situation.

If negative energy itself was inherently evil, then you could not have creatures like the Xag-ya (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MotP/Xag-ya_Xeg-yi.jpg) (shown above) from the Manual of the Planes.

Xag-ya are negative energy beings which are Neutral.

There are perfectly fine, dogmatic reasons why the Silver Flame church and the Aerenal religion forbid the use of negative energy (probably because of the evil nature of negative energy related undead as you alluded to in your post), but negative energy itself is no more evil that positive energy, flame, air, or any other pare-elemental substance that makes up the fantasy cosmology.
ImmortalBlueMage
08-11-05, 03:10 PM Not to mention that the Silver Flame has a frigging Rakshasha Rajah trapped inside it, a being which I'm sure has no quibbles about negative energy...
emeraldstreak
08-11-05, 04:11 PM The Tira Miron manifestation is just one of many, do not confuse it with the Silver Flame true entity.
ImmortalBlueMage
08-12-05, 11:26 PM Why not? Lots of it's followers do.
Psionycx
08-13-05, 12:33 AM But in practice there is nothing standing between a cleric and channelling positive or negative energy as a matter of preference.

Certainly people on Eberron frequently believe that their deities are personalities. And maybe they are or maybe they aren't. As in the real world there is no definitive answer that one can hold up.

In Eberron clerics seem to dip into a pool of generic divine power that is shaped by their beliefs. Thus a cleric of the Silver Flame can cast spells with the Evil descriptor (regardless of whether or not the spell has anything to do with negative energy) without having their clerical abilities stripped from them by their deity. Their alignment may drift, but you can't have everything now can you?

On the positive/negative side this should also hold true. After all, if a cleric of the Silver Flame can cast a spell like Desecrate, it stands to reason that they could channel negative energy in general.

Of course this creates neat role-playing options. Aside from evil clerics of the Silver Flame (which have already been described in products), you could have good-aligned clerics of the Blood of Vol. Maybe they really believe all that stuff about undeath really being a way to conquer the evil of death and so practice necromancy with benign intent? After all, the line is quite blurry. The elves practice a positive energy based necromancy, but the good comes as much from their intentions as from the energy they wield.

Irian and Mabar do not, in fact, possess any particular alignment traits. Mabar, and negative energy, are generally seen as "evil" because the plane is more overtly antithetical to "normal" life forms than Irian is. But neither plane actually skews towards either Good or Evil.
Kid SixXx
08-13-05, 07:40 AM The elves practice a positive energy based necromancy, but the good comes as much from their intentions as from the energy they wield.

Probably the best explanation you'll get in this thread.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
emeraldstreak 08-10-05, 06:46 PM	I found a Core rule that can manage Eberron blurred alignments quite well. Perhaps I am not the first one to cite it here, but there are still many people baffled by Eberron's corrupt clergy mechanics. The Monster Manual Glossary Alignment Subtype entires, i.e. pages 308/309 Evil Subtype Any effect that depends of alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. The religious alignment aura of clerics/paladins in Eberron can be used "in place" of the alignment subtype. A NE cleric of the Silver Flame will detect as Lawful cleric, Good cleric and evil creature, and will be Chaos Hammered, Holy Smiten, etc. accordingly. When it comes to one-or-the-other effects, as turning/rebuking undead, the religious alignment aura will take precedence. So, evil Flame clerics will cure wounds and turn undead. Effects that are not strictly one-or-the-other will be limited by both "alignments", evil Flame clerics will be unable to cast spells with the chaotic or evil descriptor. However, such clerics won't be able to cast spells with the good descriptor as well. They won't be able to choose the Good domain. Overall, this rule seems to hurt clerics that oppose their deity's alignment in Eberron, however, having a different alignment than the one people presume can be a great boon for corrupt clerics of good churches, but also for good clerics of Evil churches, once because players get interesting character options and twice because NPCs get the chance to convince the PCs that the world is not black and white only, posing intriguing moral dilemmas.
Necr0mancer 08-10-05, 07:12 PM	The ECS says that any cleric can cast any spell regardless of alignment. Evil clerics can cast Protection from Evil, and good clerics can Create Undead if they felt like it. And they can even do so without fearing losing their cleric abilities!
KP91 08-10-05, 07:33 PM	And they can even do so without fearing losing their cleric abilities! But they might lose their permission in the church.
emeraldstreak 08-10-05, 07:38 PM	Spells are not that much of a problem, but I can't imagine preparing positive or negative energy way every morning. Why? Because the Silver Flame can't give you negative energy, and Vol can't give you positive one. So no changing inflict/rebuke to cure/turn. Anyway, my important point is there is core rule precedence of blurred alignments.
KP91 08-10-05, 07:51 PM	Silver Flame can easily give you inflict spells for fighting evil. Demons take damage from negative energy not positive, and the Flame is a religion about fighting demons.
emeraldstreak 08-10-05, 08:02 PM	Negative energy is inherently evil, go check the pure negative energy undead monsters in the MM. It can be used against fiends, yes, but I don't think the Flame can harbor it. And what about Vol or the Undying court. They absolutely cannot give the opposing type of energy, that's why they split the first time.
zambuka 08-10-05, 09:09 PM	Why? Because the Silver Flame can't give you negative energy, and Vol can't give you positive one. So no changing inflict/rebuke to cure/turn. Eberron is different to most settings. The Silver flame does not give worshippers any energy, positive or negative. Vol does not grant worshippers their powers. No power is ever "given" by divine forces in Eberron. This is why in Eberron a Cleric can get clerical abilities while worshipping a god, the ideals of Vol, a fallen angel or even just a mouldy old piece of cheese. Provided the cleric has complete faith he will have power. Sure his turning abilities and spontaneous casting will be determined by his religeon, but otherwise any other spells are purely choice. Your lawful good Flamer can raise himself an army of zombies without fear of losing powers (although it will slowly corrupt his alignment). A Chaotic evil worshipper of the Devourer can happily throw out protection from evil spells all day long. The corrupt clergy mechanics are only baffling if you keep thinking of religeons in Eberron like religeons in other settings. ie it is the gods who have the final say in who can or cannot cast certain spells. In Ebrrron the gods have absolutley no say in it at all. What a cleric can or cannot cast is purely determined by what that cleric believes he should be able to cast. The only limitations are the aligned domains, not individual spells. eg High Cardinal Krozan (LE) can cast spells with the good descriptor, but can't take the Good domain. A chaotic good cleric of the flame could cast spells with the lawful or evil alignment but couldn't take the law domain. You may have found an interesting core rule, but the rules in the ECS supercede that rule.
Kid SixXx 08-10-05, 09:33 PM	Negative energy is inherently evil, go check the pure negative energy undead monsters in the MM. Not true. Use of negative energy itself is not evil. Only use of negative energy spells with the Evil descriptor is an inherently evil act. Using negative energy to rebuke undead is also a somewhat sketchy moral situation. If negative energy itself was inherently evil, then you could not have creatures like the Xag-ya (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MotP/Xag-ya_Xeg-yi.jpg) (shown above) from the Manual of the Planes. Xag-ya are negative energy beings which are Neutral. There are perfectly fine, dogmatic reasons why the Silver Flame church and the Aerenal religion forbid the use of negative energy (probably because of the evil nature of negative energy related undead as you alluded to in your post), but negative energy itself is no more evil that positive energy, flame, air, or any other pare-elemental substance that makes up the fantasy cosmology.
ImmortalBlueMage 08-11-05, 03:10 PM	Not to mention that the Silver Flame has a frigging Rakshasha Rajah trapped inside it, a being which I'm sure has no quibbles about negative energy...
emeraldstreak 08-11-05, 04:11 PM	The Tira Miron manifestation is just one of many, do not confuse it with the Silver Flame true entity.
ImmortalBlueMage 08-12-05, 11:26 PM	Why not? Lots of it's followers do.
Psionycx 08-13-05, 12:33 AM	But in practice there is nothing standing between a cleric and channelling positive or negative energy as a matter of preference. Certainly people on Eberron frequently believe that their deities are personalities. And maybe they are or maybe they aren't. As in the real world there is no definitive answer that one can hold up. In Eberron clerics seem to dip into a pool of generic divine power that is shaped by their beliefs. Thus a cleric of the Silver Flame can cast spells with the Evil descriptor (regardless of whether or not the spell has anything to do with negative energy) without having their clerical abilities stripped from them by their deity. Their alignment may drift, but you can't have everything now can you? On the positive/negative side this should also hold true. After all, if a cleric of the Silver Flame can cast a spell like Desecrate, it stands to reason that they could channel negative energy in general. Of course this creates neat role-playing options. Aside from evil clerics of the Silver Flame (which have already been described in products), you could have good-aligned clerics of the Blood of Vol. Maybe they really believe all that stuff about undeath really being a way to conquer the evil of death and so practice necromancy with benign intent? After all, the line is quite blurry. The elves practice a positive energy based necromancy, but the good comes as much from their intentions as from the energy they wield. Irian and Mabar do not, in fact, possess any particular alignment traits. Mabar, and negative energy, are generally seen as "evil" because the plane is more overtly antithetical to "normal" life forms than Irian is. But neither plane actually skews towards either Good or Evil.
Kid SixXx 08-13-05, 07:40 AM	The elves practice a positive energy based necromancy, but the good comes as much from their intentions as from the energy they wield. Probably the best explanation you'll get in this thread.