Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 07-14-07, 11:33 PM	by. Charles Phipps This is a review of the comic book Eye of the Wolf by Keith Baker. I'm a little ashamed to say that I only recently got this comic book. Nevertheless, its replaced the Dreaming Dark Trilogy as my favorite of the Eberron Expanded Universe works. Truly, in the end it all boils down to miss Greykell. Frankly, I do believe she's my favorite Eberron heroine in the entirety of the writings thus far and she's likely to show up in my games from this point on. Keith has successfully managed to create a sexy, vulnerable, tough, and interesting fantasy heroine without resorting to cheesecake. All in the relatively short period of 48 pages. At heart, the visualization of the Last War was what I enjoyed the most about this story. Never before was I able to picture what the Hellish environment of the conflict looked like. The muted pallets, the brutal fighting, and the "Fantasy Punk" look of it manages to visually make it distinct from the vague WW1 feel I had in my head. It's indeed very much like Warhammer in appearance. The fighting between the various sides of the conflict is brutally depicted here with there being a fairly accurate display of tactics handled between them. The heroes don't win by sheer moxy, they win because they sneak attacked their enemies. They also use whatever advantage they can. Those who are Karrnphiliacs like myself are probably going to be disappointed to see them reduced to being the villains of the piece. However, let's face it, it takes a kind of moral ambiguity to begin with to be from the undead using nation of fascists. The fact they also end up being proved to be Emerald Claw soldiers only goes to prove the point. One thing that was successfully brought home by this work is that the Last War really wasn't this sort of fluke to people. A lot of my players tend to view the Last War in the context of something that nobody should have fought in. However, clearly Miss Greykell believes very strongly in the truth of Cyre and the justice of her cause. It only makes the fact that her entire nation was destroyed and the entire conflict rendered pointless all the more bitter. Nevertheless, she never doubts the justice of her cause. I'm also pleased that we got a look into the Daughters of Sora Kell's Tower and the kind of authority they wield. They certainly command a disciplined and not 'pathetic' looking force in their heavily trained Gnoll army. There's a suitable grandeur and mysticism to them that makes them clearly an excellent tool for the PCs. There was also a nice little moment where Miss Greykell realizes that her warforged companion is a person. It's a subtle moment of racism from our heroine but one that brings home that the warforged were tools right up until King Boranal insisted that they be recognized as people. Aside from glowing praise, I have to say that I tend to feel this story could have definitely been part of a larger arc since it doesn't really provide that much due to its brevity. Nevertheless, I'm pleased by the ending and hope to see more adventures. She better get a novel Keith! 9/10
Hellcow 07-15-07, 12:18 AM	Thanks for the review, Charles (though you need to fix your spoiler tag). Just as the Dreaming Dark books were my first novels, this was my first comic, and I learned a great deal from the process; I hope to have the chance to do more in the future. Eye of the Wolf was certainly written as a foundation for a larger story arc, but for a variety of reasons I don't think it's going to continue; you can certainly drop an email to Devil's Due to ask for more, but ultimately the decision is in the hands of WotC, as they own the license. As for a novel or novella, it's certainly a possibility. She's not the star of the novel I'm working on now, in part because I thought that if I was going to take a break from the Dreaming Dark cast, I should try something other than a Cyran soldier with a warforged buddy. I still want a Mace miniature! As for Karrnath, I do hate to depict Karrnath in too dark a light. In my mind every nation saw its cause as righteous, and that's certainly where I was trying to go with the Rekkenmark swordswoman, for all that she didn't get to say much. Suradin aside, these people were soldiers and patriots. Sure, they wanted to kill Greykell, but as you pointed out, earlier on she not only killed a bunch of them, she did it in an ambush. War is war. We're seeing the story through Cyran eyes, and the Karrns come off creepier because of their use of undead. But if I'd told the story through the eyes of the Karrnathi lieutenant, it would have been quite different.
Bard of DorAr 07-15-07, 12:35 AM	So I have one important question from this which is probably a bit silly, but I can't find it on Amazon, or here or Mr Baker's page. Where can I order this comic?
Hellcow 07-15-07, 12:39 AM	It looks like there's a few copies on eBay (just make sure you're getting the right thing, as there's a bunch of other Eyes of the Wolf), mostly in the stores, and mostly at cover price or below (not counting shipping). You might still find it in a comic store, but it's a toss-up - it came out a while back.
Charles Phipps 07-15-07, 01:03 AM	I'll definitely drop Devil's Due an e-mail saying I'd like to see more Eberron comics though. I got the impression it wasn't going to be a ongoing though. Frankly, while it's unlikely, I honestly wouldn't mind seeing some sustained interaction between the newly transformed Daine and Miss Greykill. At heart, Daine is a man whose been bitterly disillusioned by the events in his life. Miss Greykill on the other hand seems quite defiant that "CYRE LIVES IN HER HER!" (I can't help but hear the Dalek that said something similiar though) As for Karrnath, I didn't particularly mind them being portrayed in a negative fashion. I do think that making them Blood of Vol/Emerald Claw did detract from the ambiguity of the quest since it became about a Vampire vs. Her. It also tarnished the wonderful moment where Greykill murdered the similarly pretty and tough warrior woman (A nice stroke that you didn't have her be ugly or male) that was her mirror image for Karrnath's championing. You seem to be indicating that only Suradin was actually a quisling and in the service of (Presumably by who he was talking about) Erandis D'Vol. I would like to see a Karrnath or two protagionist though. Cyreans are an easy source of Drama but I'd like to see heroes whom are from either Aundair or Karrnath since those seem the most underrepresented amongst heroes. Brelish are the Han Solos of the origin set, everyone "gets" who they are which is why there's so many. I'd like to see more of our heroine though I've stated. It'll be a pity it won't be on the page, she was drawn beautifully. Admittedly, I do wonder now if Cyrean military women had the equivalent of a sports bra.....
Samotep 07-15-07, 01:18 AM	It would be pretty cool to have a Karnnathi protagonist. It would be neat to see one with both national pride, but a set of morals. Can you see it? A Lawful Good Karnnathi, that doesn't see anything wrong with "resurrecting" the nation's heroes... or even has aspirations to become worthy of being raised himself! I know this would actually be better posed in the thread about what we'd like to see from Hellcow, but I figured that this was a better response to Charles' last post.
Hellcow 07-15-07, 01:19 AM	Might want to [sblock] some of that, since people who haven't read the comic are reading this. ;)
Hellcow 07-15-07, 01:26 AM	A Lawful Good Karnnathi, that doesn't see anything wrong with "resurrecting" the nation's heroes... or even has aspirations to become worthy of being raised himself! Absolutely. I think there's many good people who follow the Blood of Vol. Though it's important to note that most BoVers don't believe there's anything left OF the original person in a skeleton or zombie (even the intelligent ones). You're not raising or restoring the original hero; that's the Valenar belief. The whole point of the BoV is that once you're dead, that's it - death is the worst possible thing, a crime no just god would allow. Animating skeletons is spitting in the eye of those unjust gods, saying "You may kill me, but my bones will rise and continue to fight until you grind me down to dust." Becoming a vampire is another story, but even that is seen (by the common member of the faith, not necessarily the typical lieutenant of the Emerald Claw) as a burden to bear, not a blessing. The goal of the BoV is true immortality through the divinity of the Blood, and once you become undead, you lose that potential. You can serve as a guide for the living or a champion of the faith, but you yourself will never reach its ultimate state. Personally, I think there's a lot to admire about the Karrns as a general culture - stoicism, determination, work ethic, a strong sense of community. On the flip side you have the tendancy towards martial law and that belief that it's better to have a strong leader than a gentle one - the tendancy to favor harsh laws and harsh punishments over mercy. All of the nations have their positives and negatives, and you can have heroes or villains from any of them.
Hellcow 07-15-07, 01:37 AM	Regarding the villains of the comic... One of the main reasons for using the Emerald Claw is because they ARE one of Eberron's most straightforward, black and white villains. You're absolutely right, it DOES detract from the ambiguity of the quest. But as this was a one-shot, I didn't want to get TOO mired up in moral ambiguity or in the long-term subtle machinations of the Lords of Dust or the Dreaming Dark; I wanted something newcomers to the setting could pick up easily. The Emerald Claw and the Cults of the Dragon Below are the go-to guys for "These guys are bad: stop them", and that's what I wanted. In the case of the Rekkenmark Blade, she wasn't a vampire. Perhaps she was an agent of the Emerald Claw; but she may simply have been a Karrn patriot or follower of the Blood of Vol doing what she thought was best for her country. Essentially, it begins as a conflict between Karrnath and Cyre, at which point there really is no right or wrong side. It then becomes a conflict between Greykell and the Order of the Emerald Claw, at which point we've moved more into the realm of pulp... where our heroine is definitely the good guy, and the villain is definitely up to no good. You don't know what Suradin wanted the key for, but if he was fetching it for Erandis instead of Kaius, it was probably something very bad. I agree; in some ways it's a cop out. But as you said, it's only 48 pages to work with. Villains like the Emerald Claw work well for the shorter, simpler stories because you know it's a good idea to oppose them. The follower of the Blood of Vol might not be a bad person - but when it comes ot the Emerald Claw, you can be fairly certain that whatever Erandis wants won't be good for the living.
Charles Phipps 07-15-07, 01:38 AM	Successfully blocked Hellcow, For me, I think it'd be interesting to see the Karrn's as examined through the idea of how they've exactly coped with the tremendous sacrifices expected of them. The Karrn's seem like the ultimate "military" people where they literally prefer to defile the dead as undead horrors (even if their religion softens the blow) rather than submit to foreign rule. Oddly, while everyone goes for Soviet Union/German Karrns. It's almost Israelite there for terms of resistance to foreign government. Of course, while you often use the BoV, I'd be interested in seeing how Sovereign Host Karrn worship differs from regular Karrn worship. Is Dol Arrah really much more of a :censored:? Is Dol Dorn smarter and more like Mars than Ares? Fun questions.
Hellcow 07-15-07, 01:52 AM	Of course, while you often use the BoV, I'd be interested in seeing how Sovereign Host Karrn worship differs from regular Karrn worship. I certainly intend to look at the Three Faces of War (the Sovereign sect of Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and Dol Azur, notably strong in Rekkenmark) in more detail at some point. Who knows? If someone were to, say, write a sourcebook about the city of Stormreach, perhaps you'd find something interesting about Karrnathi expatriates in it.
Samotep 07-15-07, 01:52 AM	Absolutely. I think there's many good people who follow the Blood of Vol. Though it's important to note that most BoVers don't believe there's anything left OF the original person in a skeleton or zombie (even the intelligent ones). You're not raising or restoring the original hero; that's the Valenar belief. The whole point of the BoV is that once you're dead, that's it - death is the worst possible thing, a crime no just god would allow. Animating skeletons is spitting in the eye of those unjust gods, saying "You may kill me, but my bones will rise and continue to fight until you grind me down to dust." Becoming a vampire is another story, but even that is seen (by the common member of the faith, not necessarily the typical lieutenant of the Emerald Claw) as a burden to bear, not a blessing. The goal of the BoV is true immortality through the divinity of the Blood, and once you become undead, you lose that potential. You can serve as a guide for the living or a champion of the faith, but you yourself will never reach its ultimate state. Huh, I didn't realize that... I need to read my Five Nations book again... I thought that the Blood of Vol wasn't common knowledge to the average Karnnathi soldier, and if they believe that there is nothing left, then isn't it possible that they can feel that while they are passing on to Dolurrh, their body still continues to serve Karnnath? Personally, I think there's a lot to admire about the Karrns as a general culture - stoicism, determination, work ethic, a strong sense of community. On the flip side you have the tendancy towards martial law and that belief that it's better to have a strong leader than a gentle one - the tendancy to favor harsh laws and harsh punishments over mercy. All of the nations have their positives and negatives, and you can have heroes or villains from any of them. That is what I like about the Karnnathi people... the work ethic, and sense of community. It is almost a Brotherhood... I guess I usually play fighters and can relate to them more than almost any other culture in Khorvaire. They are very legalistic, like classic China it seems. The harsher the penalty, the less likely of instance of crime, or at least that's the philosophy.
Hellcow 07-15-07, 02:04 AM	Huh, I didn't realize that... I need to read my Five Nations book again... If you want my view of the BoV, you should look at the sidebar about the Blood of Vol in Sharn, which is actually how I see the common practice of the faith (and i see it as being fairly widespread in Karrnath). The next source would be Faiths of Eberron, though the two aren't entirely aligned. If they believe that there is nothing left, then isn't it possible that they can feel that while they are passing on to Dolurrh, their body still continues to serve Karnnath? The point is that they believe Dolurrh destroys the soul, which essentially it does. Many followers of the Sovereign Host believe that Dolurrh is essentially a "waiting room", and as your memories "fade", you are actually passing to a higher realm that cannot ever be touched by mortals - that only the purification of Dolurrh can allow you to reach. The BoV says no, it's utter annihilation. If you get lucky and rescue the soul from Dolurrh, good for you. Otherwise it's gone gone gone. So the Seekers have no qualms about using skeletons or zombies because, essentially, they don't believe that there's any reason TO show respect to a corpse. All that defines a person is his soul and his blood, and once he dies both are lost. His body is simply meat and bone, and using it in the service of the nature is no different than taking iron ore and making a sword out of it. Most followers of the BoV WANT to be used as skeletons or zombies, because at least their body serves some useful purpose. But once the soul is gone, once the blood has flowed away, it's not him any more. Even the intelligent Karrnathi undead don't actually have the memories of the fallen soldiers; it's believed that the skill and devotion of the soldier makes him a suitable vessel for the martial spirit of Karrnath, but that it is this spirit of the nation that drives the Karrnathi undead.
Samotep 07-15-07, 02:17 AM	The point is that they believe Dolurrh destroys the soul, which essentially it does. Many followers of the Sovereign Host believe that Dolurrh is essentially a "waiting room", and as your memories "fade", you are actually passing to a higher realm that cannot ever be touched by mortals - that only the purification of Dolurrh can allow you to reach. The BoV says no, it's utter annihilation. If you get lucky and rescue the soul from Dolurrh, good for you. Otherwise it's gone gone gone. Huh, okay, I understand now, Dolurrh is like a plane that is as varied in belief as hell, Hades, Nirvana, etc. So Karnnath believes that once you die you are lost, for the most part... so a search for immortality is key, I gotcha! Hmmm... much to think about. Thanks man!
Charles Phipps 07-15-07, 02:36 AM	I am curious, Keith, how did you come up with the idea for Greykell?
Hellcow 07-15-07, 11:04 AM	Huh, okay, I understand now, Dolurrh is like a plane that is as varied in belief as hell, Hades, Nirvana, etc. Yes and no. No one argues about what Dolurrh is; after all, it's possible to go there and come back. The issue is that when you go there, you immediately start to lose your memories and personality (and once you lose them all, you can't be raised from the dead). The BoV says that's exactly what it appears to be: the complete dissolution of what you used to be. The Silver Flame says that after you "fade" in Dollurh, your spirit joins with the Flame - so a sort of Nirvana, because this is more of an abstract transcendental experience than a traditional Heaven. The SH (well, some followers) say that the fading is the visible sign of slow ascension to the Realm of the Sovereigns, which they DO believe to be an Elysian Fields/Valhalla/Heaven sort of paradise. But no mortal can ever go there, and once you're there you can never come back (someone can grab your husk from Dolurrh, and it might even regain the memories you had, but the divine spark has passed from it). But Dolurrh? There's some fairly good accounts of what it is from people who've been there. It's what comes afterwards - if anything - that comes down to faith.
Hellcow 07-15-07, 11:12 AM	I am curious, Keith, how did you come up with the idea for Greykell? I can't really say without giving away things about the character that haven't been revealed yet, and which will play an important role in stories to come. If we meet at a con sometime, I'll tell you more about her.
Joni-san 07-15-07, 12:42 PM	A small side-step if you will: How does the Blood of Vol view Warforged again?
Hellcow 07-15-07, 01:23 PM	While some warforged turn to the Blood of Vol in hopes of escaping death, others join the cult for exactly the opposite reason. Many of the followers of the Blood believe that life is a battle against the curse of death. For mortals, the only escape is undeath. But warforged are already immune to hunger, disease, age, exhaustion, and many of the other plagues of mortality. As a result, some Blood evangelists have convinced warforged soldiers that they are the perfect champions of the church -- that they will fight at the side of the vampire lords in the final battle against death itself. These warforged soldiers are often haughty and arrogant in their newfound sense of immortality. Note that "For mortals, the only escape is undeath" refers to the near term - the ideal escape is the whole destruction of death and attaining the true potential that lies within the blood. So warforged are tragically flaw because they can never know the true divinity of the Blood. On the other hand, they are also blessed as they are immune to many of the curses inflicted upon mortals. Ultimately, it's all a question of whether they choose to serve the cause.
Identitystolen 07-15-07, 03:02 PM	Eck, I hate it when a good liscnce get mired up and will probably never see the light of day again. Good review Phipps, though what took ya'? :P The only complaint I had with the comic, art wise, is the depiction siege of the fortress. While overall it was good, I can't see how Karranath could marshal seven airships to attack one fortress. Oh, and +1 to wanting a Mace mini.
Hellcow 07-15-07, 03:14 PM	While overall it was good, I can't see how Karranath could marshal seven airships to attack one fortress. Well, bear in mind that what you saw was Greykell telling a story. Perhaps she was embellishing the details. ;)
Charles Phipps 07-15-07, 03:46 PM	Well, bear in mind that what you saw was Greykell telling a story. Perhaps she was embellishing the details. ;) My explanation. There were a lot of airships. Post-Mourning, eh, not so much. ;-)
Joni-san 07-15-07, 05:21 PM	Thanks Hellcow :)
Ashlock 07-15-07, 06:27 PM	It would be pretty cool to have a Karnnathi protagonist. If it helps, Ed Bolme's Bound By Iron has a Karrn protagonist, and a lawful good one at that. And there's still more coming out that shows non-villainous Karrns.... ;)
Hellcow 07-15-07, 07:24 PM	If it helps, Ed Bolme's Bound By Iron has a Karrn protagonist, and a lawful good one at that. And there's still more coming out that shows non-villainous Karrns.... ;) Graeme Davis' Blood and Honor also has a Karrnathi protagonist, as I recall, likewise a decent man. And if memory serves me right, I believe Teron of The Orb of Xoriat is Aundairian. So it's certainly not all Brelish out there.
Fanatic66 07-15-07, 08:44 PM	I certainly intend to look at the Three Faces of War (the Sovereign sect of Dol Arrah, Dol Dorn, and Dol Azur, notably strong in Rekkenmark) in more detail at some point. Who knows? If someone were to, say, write a sourcebook about the city of Stormreach, perhaps you'd find something interesting about Karrnathi expatriates in it. Forgive me Keith, but I have no idea who Dol Azur is? My guess it's the old name of the mockery before he betrayed the Host, but I don't know.
Nuclear_Buddha 07-16-07, 02:42 AM	Forgive me Keith, but I have no idea who Dol Azur is? My guess it's the old name of the mockery before he betrayed the Host, but I don't know. Correct. The actual names of the Dark Six can be found in FoE.
Fanatic66 07-16-07, 09:12 AM	Correct. The actual names of the Dark Six can be found in FoE. Thanks.
Charles Phipps 07-16-07, 04:36 PM	Oddly, one thing I'd like to comment on that Keith Baker said is this. WHY exactly are the Emerald Claw the unambigious Sheriff of Nottingham rotters? It can't be because they use undead. The Karrns do that. It can't be because they follow a Undead Horror. The Karrns do that as well (abeit unwillingly). So, why exactly are the Emerald Claw the "never be any good" evil doers? Frankly, I wish we could have more Mourning reactions from the non-Cyreans at some point too. It'll be interesting to see the kind of Atomic Bomb devastation from people that may have lost many soldiers fighting there or friends but more precisely suddenly find the war OVER. For me, I'd love to see a bunch of Karrns either celebrating their hated enemies' destruction or shaken by the sight.... Only to hear a "what? Wait, we're not going to press our advantage?"
Hellcow 07-16-07, 05:10 PM	So, why exactly are the Emerald Claw the "never be any good" evil doers? Two reasons. The first is that the setting needs them. It has a vast array of morally ambigious factions, of untrustworthy allies and enemies so subtle you can never be certain that you're fighting them. That's great for the noir side of things. But pulp, quite often, does rely on unambigious lines of good and evil. Do we ever need to wonder if Ming the Merciless might not be such a bad guy after all? In Raiders of the Last Ark, do we say "You know, maybe we should make sure the Nazis don't have a good reason for their actions?" Some DMs don't WANT moral ambiguity. They want clarity. They want their players to know they are doing the right thing. And that's where the Emerald Claw comes in. They aren't simply patriots acting in the service of their nation, as followers of the Blood of Vol may be. Whether they know it or not, agents of the Emerald Claw are serving the meglomaniacal Queen of the Dead in her terrible schemes. People like Erandis and Demise aren't patriots; they're building necronic resonators that will turn countries into zombies or reclaiming Qabalrin relics to raise armies of vampires. There's your Ming the Merciless. The Cults of the Dragon Below are similar; they AREN'T all evil, because they aren't a united front, but when you find one that IS evil, it's not very hard to tell. When the freaks with the grafts try to eat your brains, you can be fairly confident that stopping them is a good act. Eberron breaks all sorts of traditional stereotypes. Goblins and orcs aren't always evil. Undead aren't always evil. None of the nations are inherently evil; they're all looking out for their own self interests. But when you just want a simple pulp story, it's good to have someone who IS unambiguously evil - and that's where the Emerald Claw comes in. The Blood of Vol got a little confused in the ECS, but by my original intent, the BoV isn't innately evil and doesn't always serve evil ends. The followers of the Blood of Vol believe that their goal is actually a noble one that will ultimately save the entire world. It is a faith opposed to death - one that others find disturbing, but not inherently evil. But the Emerald Claw is another story. On the surface it looks like the mainstream Blood of Vol, but its members serve only the interests of Erandis, and these often have nothing to do with the proclaimed purpose of the BoV. Its members may be MISLED into believing that they are serving the interests of Karrnath - but at the end of the day, anything they are trying to accomplish serves only Erandis. So if you want your necromantic paladin, great. Just make him a member of the BoV, not the OotEC. The Emerald Claw is intended to fill the role of Cobra from GI Joe, of the Decepticons in the Transformers. In a world of ambiguity, they are one of the few forces you KNOW you should oppose. And if that's not the kind of game you want to run, there's many other villains to choose from; as I said, you can focus on the Blood of Vol without ever using the Emerald Claw. Frankly, I wish we could have more Mourning reactions from the non-Cyreans at some point too. Certainly. Only to hear a "what? Wait, we're not going to press our advantage?" I think fear outweighs any desire to celebrate or press the advantage. This wasn't the destruction of an enemy. No one can claim this as a victory, because no one knows what caused in. Even those who gloat over the Cyrans are simply trying to ignore the true horror - the knowledge that they could be next. The Mourning was the utter and inexplicable destruction of the heart of the old kingdom - the seat of power you were trying to claim. How can you press your advantage when the land you wanted is a twisted horror filled with monsters? And when the dead-gray mist is right on your borders, are you more concerned with continuing the battle or seeking some way to ensure that it won't roll over the border tomorrow? To me, the Mourning should throw a shadow of fear and despair across every nation. It's like The Dying Earth. As far as the people of Breland (for example) know, the world could end tomorrow. Because they still don't know what caused the Mourning... and that means at any moment it could happen together. The Cyrans lost the war. But no one won it. And all that holds the hounds at bay is sheer terror. This is what I've said about people keen to have an answer to the mystery. If that answer can be found - and if it can be proven to be something that will not occur again, then the war WILL return, because then people WILL want to press the advantage. At the moment, we have a cold war because people are too afraid to fight - afraid that the war magics used in the battle might have been the cause of the destruction, and that continuing the fight could seal their own fate.
Charles Phipps 07-17-07, 03:40 PM	The first is that the setting needs them. It has a vast array of morally ambigious factions, of untrustworthy allies and enemies so subtle you can never be certain that you're fighting them. That's great for the noir side of things. But pulp, quite often, does rely on unambigious lines of good and evil. Do we ever need to wonder if Ming the Merciless might not be such a bad guy after all? In Raiders of the Last Ark, do we say "You know, maybe we should make sure the Nazis don't have a good reason for their actions?" Oh, I perfectly agree Hellcow. I also think you've provided plenty of groups that are beyond redemption for bad guys. I don't know about you but I tend to think that anyone who wants to play an agent for the Aurrum is really wanting to play Goldeneye: Rogue Agent. A bunch of evil businessmen is about as unrepentently evil as you can get. This doesn't even bring in the Cosmic Villains of the LoD, Daelkyr, and DD whom pretty much are MADE of pure evil. I guess my main point was that I wasn't sure what the Emerald Claw DID and BELIEVED that was so much different from the regular Karrns/BoV that made them so beyond the pale. Building giant vampire making machines works for me. The Cyrans lost the war. But no one won it. And all that holds the hounds at bay is sheer terror. This is what I've said about people keen to have an answer to the mystery. If that answer can be found - and if it can be proven to be something that will not occur again, then the war WILL return, because then people WILL want to press the advantage. At the moment, we have a cold war because people are too afraid to fight - afraid that the war magics used in the battle might have been the cause of the destruction, and that continuing the fight could seal their own fate. True, though I always wondered if after the initial effect wore off that some people were convinced that the other nations really didn't have anything to do with it. Either that or the Cyreans had brought down the end down upon themselves. I guess a part of me was I feel the horror of the Mourning drowns out a lot of the assumption "What was the past century for, anyway!?" Which is why I love Greykill's example. Really, it's the cause of JUSTICE that Cyre rule Galifar.
DragoonDarkfire 07-17-07, 06:53 PM	So this is how it goes eh? Dreaming Dark/Inspired: Let's stop them... but we don't quite know if they're behind this... and if they are we have to be careful. We might get caught and executed for murdering a perfectly innocent Sarlonian ambassador. Lords of Dust: Well he's taken up the guise as Baron ________ d'Cannith... and we aren't even sure he IS a Rakshasa... damn this is not going our way. Order of the Emerald Claw: They're doing something? It's probably some nefarious plan to like... turn babies into gold or something. ALRIGHT TEAM! LET'S ROLL OUT!
Charles Phipps 07-17-07, 07:04 PM	Interesting perspective, DragonDarkfire. Then again, that sort of makes a funny perspective. The Emerald Claw is probably tremendously subtle and hidden in Karrnath. However, outside they're raising hordes of undead and leaving trails of bloodless corpses behind them. In other words, somewhat noticible.
mhacdebhandia 07-17-07, 08:49 PM	Graeme Davis' Blood and Honor also has a Karrnathi protagonist, as I recall, likewise a decent man. And if memory serves me right, I believe Teron of The Orb of Xoriat is Aundairian. So it's certainly not all Brelish out there. Of course, Teron's kind of a jerk, so that helps even things out. ;) Actually, the protagonist of Edward Bolme's Bound by Iron, Cimozjen, is a Karrnathi veteran, too. I would absolutely love to read a novel with a Zil gnome as, if not the protagonist, at least a serious supporting role. Jode seemed to have enough gnomelike knowledge for Daine's needs in The City of Towers, but it would be excellent to see what a true child of Zilargo would be like.
Hellcow 07-18-07, 12:57 PM	True, though I always wondered if after the initial effect wore off that some people were convinced that the other nations really didn't have anything to do with it. I think few people DO think any of the other nations had anything to do with it. Because if, say, Aundair had done it, one would expect them to take credit and use that power to force the other nations to surrender. The fact that NO ONE knows means one of a few things. It was some sort of side effect of the war. Greater amounts of magic were being used every year. Warforged, airships, siege staves, new spells. Could it be that this built up to some sort of critical mass? Can you take that chance? Will the next siege staff you use trigger YOUR Mourning? You can better that every nation has a war magic department working as hard as possible to disprove this theory - but until they do, there is some fear that it's progress that caused the probelm. It was Cyre's fault - or House Cannith's. One of them was testing a magical weapon and set it off. But if THAT'S the case, it means it's possible to create a weapon with this level of power. You're just LUCKY it didn't get aimed at you. The next one might be. Until you've either found a way to defend against it or make your own, do you want to be fighting? It was a completely unrelated, outside force. Daelkyr. A rajah. Khyber cultists. But if THAT'S the case, do you want ot be fighting one another when someone else is destroying entire countries? If they do it again, what's going to be left to fight over? Essentially, you're right - people ARE saying "What was the last century for?" People AREN'T happy. People in many of the nations feel that their nation could have won the war, and that they should continue the fight. But the LEADERS aren't prepared to take that chance... yet. Kaius thinks it's too great a risk - but he has warlords who disagree. It's a balancing act. So the point is that the war isn't over. They've called a temporary time out on account of Mourning. But nothing's resolved - hence, if it's proven that a second Mourning ISN'T a threat, i'd expect the war to start again in short order. Even if some of the rulers (like Boranel or Jaela) aren't especially dedciated to continuing the fight, many of their people are; they want justice, and they want the last hundred years of war to have meant something. And some of the other leaders DO want to sit the throne of Galifar. Anyhow, I'm setting out traveling again, so this will probably be my last post for a while!
Syltorian 07-18-07, 07:35 PM	It was some sort of side effect of the war. Greater amounts of magic were being used every year. Warforged, airships, siege staves, new spells. Could it be that this built up to some sort of critical mass? Can you take that chance? Will the next siege staff you use trigger YOUR Mourning? You can better that every nation has a war magic department working as hard as possible to disprove this theory - but until they do, there is some fear that it's progress that caused the probelm. Wouldn't this also mean that people grow nervous about magic in general? Can people be sure that the critical mass counts only for battle magic? Given how much Khorvaire relies on magic, ceasing to use any kind of magic would of course sent all of the place back into some kind of Dark Age, but would people not be afraid that it's not the next siege staff but the next Lyrandar weather control spell or the new magical Sharn tower-support that tips the balance? I guess that is exactly what the Ashbound claim. But wouldn't that theory enjoy a much greater popularity than it seems to have? Could there be a far greater number of people with no allegiance to that sect (counting but a few hundred in all the continent), but with the same fears, staging anything from demonstrations to acts of sabotage? Though I guess most people simply go on hoping that nothing happens, perhaps reducing some of the magic, the way many people don't really alter their lifestyle all that much when told about, say, the consequences of global warming (though there has not been as terrifying and cataclysmic event as the Mourning)?
Charles Phipps 07-18-07, 07:49 PM	Though I guess most people simply go on hoping that nothing happens, perhaps reducing some of the magic, the way many people don't really alter their lifestyle all that much when told about, say, the consequences of global warming (though there has not been as terrifying and cataclysmic event as the Mourning)? Yeah, I think in Eberron the Global Warming analogy is pretty clear. What it boils down to is that magic is a very important part of the setting. It keeps people healed, it keeps the Towers in the Sky, it provides your machines to work, and it keeps the Invaders at Bay. People might say "get rid of the warforged" to lower magic but probably not your lightning rails.
The Dreaming Duck 07-18-07, 09:15 PM	Yes, the point to me is "What's changed over the last 30 years?" Essentially, if there's a massive nuclear disaster, are people going to decide that they need to stop using light bulbs and radios, which have worked fine for centuries, or are they going to worry about nuclear power and nuclear weapons? In Eberron, continual flame, message stones, the lightning rail, and elemental galleons have been used for ages with no apparent ill effects. Elemental binding in general has been used for centuries, so people presumably don't see it as a threat. But especially in the last thirty years of the war, we've seen an increase in destructive magic - spells for blowing things up. And then... something blew up. I can see people saying "Hey, stop with the seige staves until we get this sorted out." Likewise, I think thea lot of people will think that Cannith set off something they were working on - meaning that recovery and adaptation of this is absolutely paramount, all the while using the break to reposition and resupply their troops. We've moved from war to a cold war footing, but it's only been two years - and from what Hellcow's said, I imagine that most people are planning out what they'll do when the conflict inevitably resumes. But while I think this is EXACTLY what the Ashbound are talking about, and while I'm sure it's got them new recruits, I don't see most people becoming magical Luddites. Again, just because we're afraid of nuclear annihilation doesn't mean we'll stop using light bulbs and VCRs; but we may demand limits on nuclear power.
Charles Phipps 07-20-07, 05:25 PM	So, how do you think Daine and she would get along?
The Dreaming Duck 07-21-07, 10:52 AM	So, how do you think Daine and she would get along? Daine and Greykell? Hmm. Good question. If only there was a novel in which Daine came to Sharn and met Greykell in High Walls... Perhaps over dinner at some Cyran counsellor's tent... Of course, Greykell at the end of Eye of the Wolf is a slightly different Greykell than what we see in City of Towers, but the seeds are certainly there at the begining. When she's first approached, she doesn't want to be addressed by her military rank, just like in CoT. I'd argue that the encounter with the other guy (whose name escapes me at the moment) reminds her of the past and what she was fighting for - so the question is a FUTURE encounter between her and Daine would be like.
Charles Phipps 07-21-07, 04:58 PM	Let me rephrase, I know they met. I meant in a longer context and more akin to the comic book where she can show off how good she really is.