Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yossarian 04-16-07, 06:06 AM	OK, I'm dying to know. How is it? Could someone who owns the book please enlighten me?
Kid SixXx 04-16-07, 08:50 AM	OK, I'm dying to know. How is it? Could someone who owns the book please enlighten me? I don't think it ships until tomorrow (4/17) or Wednesday (4/18).
InfinityStar8 04-16-07, 04:30 PM	I own it already. Read about half of it. Nice over-view on the whole thing. Nice combat stats and set-up for battles. It has 2 new feats and 3 new magic items (Useing th enew magic item format). Brings in a number of core Eberron ideas and goes over sever areas. I don't want to go into too much detail but I think it's well worth the moeny.
WarlockDa 04-16-07, 06:53 PM	We got our copy at a Books A Million Sunday (rather pleasantly surprised it was on shelf already), but from what I've read it looks great. Some great tie ins with dragons, dreadhold, and at least a few dragonspawn. I've only really breezed through it, but I've been much happier with this than other Eberron adventures published. It may be a trade paperback, but aside from having soft covers it's truely hardback quality.
davethebrave371 04-16-07, 08:07 PM	Dreadhold and Dragonspawn? All these DR words make me feel faint. I'm getting it tomorrow, and not even an earthquake rending my Isle in twain shall serve to bar me from it.
Daydreamer 04-16-07, 08:12 PM	part of the advertisement for this adventure is that it uses a new encounter format to make the dms job easier and quicker, i assume this mostly refers to combat, anyone care to elaborate on what this means concretely?
InfinityStar8 04-16-07, 08:16 PM	Dreadhold and Dragonspawn? All these DR words make me feel faint. I'm getting it tomorrow, and not even an earthquake rending my Isle in twain shall serve to bar me from it. Dragons Dredhold Dragonspawn Dragonshards Dragonmakred Danger Disaster Destruction Deamons/Devals Dinosours Dr. Dre It's full of all of it!!! P.S. Ok, maybe not Dr. Dre
davethebrave371 04-16-07, 08:29 PM	Dragons Dredhold Dragonspawn Dragonshards Dragonmakred Danger Disaster Destruction Deamons/Devals Dinosours Dr. Dre It's full of all of it!!! P.S. Ok, maybe not Dr. Dre Dr. Dre? Well I always knew Vol wasn't sh/t, but now they've for Professor d'Dre to sing them a tune about it.
Kid SixXx 04-16-07, 10:16 PM	Dr. Dre? Well I always knew Vol wasn't sh/t, but now they've for Professor d'Dre to sing them a tune about it. Are you trying to say that Liches ain't nothing but Gnolls and Gricks?
davethebrave371 04-16-07, 10:59 PM	Are you trying to say that Liches ain't nothing but Gnolls and Gricks? Lick on these 3rd level power stones and suck at Skill Tricks.
ekomega 04-17-07, 01:27 AM	I noticed from the art gallery that a lot of the images correspond to DnD miniatures from the recent expansions, namely the Bluespawn something-stupid and the Blood of Vol person with that chain scythe, and the Tsucora Quori. I'm sure there's more. That's kind of disappointing. I wonder how much they forced the authors to include DnD Miniatures monsters in the encounters, instead of other monsters that don't have miniatures or even other miniatures that are not currently in stores. I think that's really lame. Sure, lots of people love miniatures, but I don't like to feel like I need to buy 12 boxes of RANDOMIZED miniatures, just so I can fill out everyone in a "super"-adventure. Especially when I was really excited about the adventure. I wish we could cut the forced cross-promotion and forced cross-selling. Can't I just buy one module for $35 and not have to buy $100 of random miniatures? Now I'm just not going to buy the adventure at all.
DBlizzard 04-17-07, 02:04 AM	Sure, lots of people love miniatures, but I don't like to feel like I need to buy 12 boxes of RANDOMIZED miniatures, just so I can fill out everyone in a "super"-adventure. Especially when I was really excited about the adventure. Why should you feel forced to buy the miniatures to run the game? What would you have done if they put in encounters for creatures that don't have any miniatures? The fact that a module uses recent miniatures from DDM is a bonus for those who buy the miniatures. It shouldn't have any effect on those who don't. The only negative from this I would worry about is if those encounters feel forced. If you get the feeling that a Bone Naga was shoehorned into the adventure because there was one in Unhallowed, that would be a negative. However, I have enough respect for Nicolas Logue that I don't expect to get that feeling. As a matter of fact, given that the main designer of the adventure is one of the DDM developers, I'd wager it worked the other way. He knew what he wanted to put on EotLQ and so made sure to develop them for the DDM game. I wish we could cut the forced cross-promotion and forced cross-selling. Can't I just buy one module for $35 and not have to buy $100 of random miniatures? Again, I just don't see why you are forced to buy any miniatures because you bought the adventure.
Arcane Guyver 04-17-07, 02:31 AM	You really don't need minis to use this module format...just describe what the hell the characters are encountering and put down some representative tokens on the battlemat (I hope you're at least using one of those...).
cancerousmango 04-17-07, 03:06 AM	Damnit. I was avoiding this new adventure format as best I could. The maps are so friggin' tiny and useless.
Frederyck 04-17-07, 06:32 AM	I am not happy with the map format either, but I like the adventure in most other aspects. In fact, I will probably try to run it with my Eberron group instead of the Red Hand of Doom even. I am not saying it is all better than RHoD, but the amount of Eberron-y goodness in EotLQ is just too sweet for me to ignore! :)
Kryptonian Scion 04-17-07, 04:13 PM	I noticed from the art gallery that a lot of the images correspond to DnD miniatures from the recent expansions, namely the Bluespawn something-stupid and the Blood of Vol person with that chain scythe, and the Tsucora Quori. I'm sure there's more. A Blood of Vol cultist and a tsucora quori in Eberron?! Those asshats! How stupid! :rolleyes:
Frederyck 04-17-07, 04:37 PM	I think that's really lame. Lame? It's a sound business tactic. Whether we like it or not, the company that makes all these great products that we all love have to make a profit. And any business student can tell you that synergy effects between products can produce much better sales. "Sure, having product A is great, and owning product B is also great; but if you have both A and B you'll die a much happier man". And has been stated earlier, you don't need EotLQ to enjoy the minis, and you really don't need the minis to enjoy the adventure. But taken together, you might like them more. If the writers have produced a good or great adventure, it is really irrelevant if they had some business practice rules forced upon them in doing so or not. (And let me tell you, they had lots of them, or at least the editor had).
Amaril 04-17-07, 04:48 PM	And has been stated earlier, you don't need EotLQ to enjoy the minis, and you really don't need the minis to enjoy the adventure. But taken together, you might like them more.True, but selecting your monsters and NPCs from the relatively small pool of minis and designing the encounters around those minis' stats is limiting. There aren't as many monster minis as there are monsters. On the other hand, having a miniature that perfectly matches your NPC is a nice touch, although not worth having to hunt down that miniature. I'm curious about how many of those miniatures used in the encounters are rare or uncommon. Thankfully, I own and use Fiery Dragon's Counter Collection Digital 2.0 so I can produce as many tokens for a particular monster as needed. Additionally, I can download images from WotC's web site to create my own tokens, too. Sure, 3D looks prettier, but not to my bank account and especially not to home with it's limited storage space.
WarlockDa 04-17-07, 06:07 PM	Don't worry about the maps. The last adventure in this new format, Ravenloft, ended up with all the maps being posted in the gallery in full page res. Although this time I hope WotC doesn't wait 6 weeks to do it.
davethebrave371 04-17-07, 06:18 PM	I honestly like the new format a lot. I just picked it up, and I have to say it gets MAJOR thumbs up from me.
WotC_Shoe 04-17-07, 07:07 PM	However, I have enough respect for Nicolas Logue that I don't expect to get that feeling. As a matter of fact, given that the main designer of the adventure is one of the DDM developers, I'd wager it worked the other way. He knew what he wanted to put on EotLQ and so made sure to develop them for the DDM game. Lead developer of DDM, in fact. While concepting, outlining, and writing EotLQ I had the opportunity to simultaneously influence minis sets. I believe the result is a compelling adventure with interesting encounters... The fact you can represent most of the encounters with minis from recent and upcoming sets is just a bonus. My only gripe is that I didn't have the minis yet when I ran a playtest group through the adventure. As the lead minis guy in RPG R&D, I'm constantly pushing for the inclusion of minis in the DDM game that represent creatures from current adventures. We can't do all of them, but it's a better experience when you've got accurate minis for your encounters (if you're using minis -- Nic doesn't usually). Of course, it also turns out that this method of providing a better experience also sells more product - but that shouldn't be confused with motive for cross-product synergy. On topic, I'm eager to hear your responses to the adventure.
WarlockDa 04-17-07, 07:21 PM	Well while you're here,...any word on if/when we can expect full page maps to make it to the site for download?
davethebrave371 04-17-07, 07:48 PM	On topic, I'm eager to hear your responses to the adventure. I hate for the first thing I say to be a problem, given that this is by far my favourite Eberron adventure to date, even counting all the Dungeon ones, but p. 65 says that the Ogre-Magi twins have their CR reduced to 6 because of their spent abilities, and then says to grant 75% exp because of their spent abilities. Do you do both, or one? If one, which one? But overall, amazing. I love it. Corpse Creature Orca?! Best idea EVER. And the nifty thing that happens to the players is a REALLY cool angle. As a DM, I have to say it is probably my favourite thing, and knowing my players, it will be their favourite aspect upon finishing.
WarlockDa 04-17-07, 08:30 PM	Speaking of the,.....hmmm....special thing that happens to the PCs.....that is a permanant thing correct?
Daydreamer 04-17-07, 08:36 PM	what is this new format?
davethebrave371 04-17-07, 08:43 PM	Speaking of the,.....hmmm....special thing that happens to the PCs.....that is a permanant thing correct? Well now, that's just as much a spoiler as the thing itself, but yes, it is.
WarlockDa 04-17-07, 08:56 PM	Thanks,...I've only read a few dozen pages in thus far and curiousity got the better of me. :D The new format is basically after standard text pages of a section,....you have 1 to 2 pages layouts of each encounter, keyed to it's text area. These pages contain all encounter info, stats, tactics, and generally a small map.
shadowpavement 04-17-07, 09:29 PM	I just got done reading the whole thing and really like the adventure. It's solid and sound for the most part. I'm not a fan of miniatures either and will never use them in any game I run but that doens't keep if from being a fun time. I usualy go for a more cinematic form of game play which means that when I run EoLQ I'll take out a lot of the combat encounters that aren't directly tied to the plot and make the main fights a little bigger. The new format has each chapter detailing what happens in the adventure. Each combat encounter has a separate page at the end of the chapter that has all the combat stats and tactics for each of the bad guys all together. Very nice and susinct. Especially if you like to photocopy stuff like that when you run a game like l do.
davethebrave371 04-17-07, 11:45 PM	I just scoured the entire book, and unless I'm missing something, this book doesn't seem to include options for scaling up or down for different party levels. My average party level right now is actually the level you're supposed to reach at the end of this, and I'll be scaling up at least a couple encounters (the final encounter of each section at least, and bringing any EL 5s up to EL 6 or 7 each) myself. It just would've been nice to have a little suggestion sidebar in the front.
Kryptonian Scion 04-18-07, 10:44 AM	I, personally, really like that there are minis to match most of the encounters in the adventure. I browsed through all of the encounters, and nothing appears at all shoehorned into place. I have wanted dracotaur minis forever, and really hope we see one in the Night Below set. Other than the huge blue dragon, I don't think there are any major monsters that don't have representation on the minis line in EotLQ. For those worried that there are a ton of encounters forced into the adventure, however, you will be relieved to know that (off the top of my head) somewhere around 50% of the combat opponents are humanoids. And few of them appear to be modeled around existing D&D Minis.
WotC_Shoe 04-18-07, 11:50 AM	Well now, that's just as much a spoiler as the thing itself, but yes, it is.the general effect is permanent, but the effects during the last section are temporary
Nlogue 04-18-07, 12:02 PM	As the lead minis guy in RPG R&D, I'm constantly pushing for the inclusion of minis in the DDM game that represent creatures from current adventures. We can't do all of them, but it's a better experience when you've got accurate minis for your encounters (if you're using minis -- Nic doesn't usually). It's true! I never use the minis when I play D&D, even though I love them and super-enjoy the DDM game. Between Shoe and I, you should get a nice mix of mini-friendly and less mini-oriented style, and Stephen really did a great job making sure both styles of play are easily applied to all the encounters in EotLQ in my opinion.
Nlogue 04-18-07, 12:06 PM	I hate for the first thing I say to be a problem, given that this is by far my favourite Eberron adventure to date, even counting all the Dungeon ones, but p. 65 says that the Ogre-Magi twins have their CR reduced to 6 because of their spent abilities, and then says to grant 75% exp because of their spent abilities. Do you do both, or one? If one, which one? Ah, the Kurlak Twins...I love me some ogre magi. In fact I was really happy with the way all of Vorgaard's Estate turned out. In response to your question: I would only apply one of the two, which do you think is better Shoe? But overall, amazing. I love it. Corpse Creature Orca?! Best idea EVER. Thanks! :) Ship Eater is my personal favorite critter from the adventure! I had so much fun with that encounter in the play test! It was super awesome! My PCs totally figured out the trick with the huge bone spurs and lured Ship Eater to the shallows where the disgusting rotting corpse of a whale promptly impaled itself. I've seen my group so excited!
WotC_Shoe 04-18-07, 12:08 PM	And davethebrave371: For the twins encounter, use one or the other - I don't think you need both xp hits. As far as scaling goes - I think it is pretty easy to scale "up" by adding an extra foe in a few of the encounters. We're still fine-tuning the encounter format, but it does sound like a reasonable bit of text to consider adding to the encounter spread in future adventures. At any rate, I agree it would have been helpful to add to the intro chapter. KrytoS: The gargantuan blue might be technically too big, but it worked great on my table. I'd also have to say that I really wanted to include Emerald Claw Soldiers and Cloudreavers because of the minis we already have for them. I'm sure most of you have already realized how rich the ECS is - but the amazing thing was how the adventure wrote itself as I paged through the ECS and other sources looking for info. By the way -- when you run this, I sincerely encourage the "in media res" style of starting things out. There's a quick sidebar about it near the front.
Orci 04-18-07, 12:12 PM	Seems like an really nice adventure, what I don't like is the colored dragon clicheé... The bad ones are chromatic, the good ones metallic... It would have been nicer, if e.g. the blue and silver would have been switched... (Probapbly it is only the blue cause of the blue mini(if you could even name it mini :-)))
Nlogue 04-18-07, 12:15 PM	By the way -- when you run this, I sincerely encourage the "in media res" style of starting things out. There's a quick sidebar about it near the front. An excellent choice! Well done with this Stephen! Gets them right in the action and the blood a-pumping immediately!
WotC_Shoe 04-18-07, 12:16 PM	Seems like an really nice adventure, what I don't like is the colored dragon clicheé... The bad ones are chromatic, the good ones metallic... It would have been nicer, if e.g. the blue and silver would have been switched... (Probapbly it is only the blue cause of the blue mini(if you could even name it mini :-))) There's a bit of that cliche-breaking regarding the white wanderers, and technically, the blue and the silver were both working on the same side at one point.
davethebrave371 04-18-07, 12:38 PM	the general effect is permanent, but the effects during the last section are temporary I know, he mentioned he'd only thumbed through the first dozen pages, so I assumed he hadn't gotten that far anyway.
Paranoia833 04-18-07, 07:17 PM	Just flicking through it right now, but yeah, add my voice to the "it kicks ass!" crowd. The individual encounters all look great and the dragonmark related plot twist has some great potential for further adventures. Plus I got a grin from the sidebar on page 23. which in my head basically read as "Yes, yes combining the mummy and half-dragon template is technically against the rules but screw you rules lawyers I want my mummy-dragon!"[/spoils] edit: just to cover my ass... HUGE SPOILERS BELOW, not joking! In fact my only real criticism* was the final boss. I don't really mind the minatures product tie-ins as for the most part they made sense and didn't detract from the game at all but the [spoiler]sudden bluespawn godslayer out of nowhere just seemed too much like product placement to me and is probably the only encounter I'll consider outright replacing. The bluespawn just comes off as too much of high-level mook to be a final encounter for a module IMO. That said I might just let the players keep the fast healing a little longer and give the godslayer a Syberis mark and some other nifty abilities to compensate, maybe redo his description to make it some sort of horrific living-dragonmark beast, I could keep the base statline. Meh I'll stop rambling now. *Aside from Emerald Claw leader being too boring compared to Garrow from the original adventures. But I appreciate that my belief that the Emerald Claw are such inherently rediculous villains that they're impossible to take seriously and thus their masterminds should always have a gimmic and accompanying quirky personality, is purely my personal bias.
Vael 04-18-07, 09:57 PM	Since I only had a brief chance to flip through this at the bookstore, I will simply comment that the art is simply gorgeous. I love the party, and just the those chapter pages were glorious.
shadowpavement 04-18-07, 11:08 PM	Hmmm....something about the adventure just hit me today. If the whole destruction of House Vol was instigated because Erandis herself was a half-dragon, why are there two other half-dragons in the adventure? And why didn't those guys cause the unholy fires of dragondom to come crashing down on them. I think I'll change them from halfdragons to something else draconic in nature
davethebrave371 04-18-07, 11:13 PM	Hmmm....something about the adventure just hit me today. If the whole destruction of House Vol was instigated because Erandis herself was a half-dragon, why are there two other half-dragons in the adventure? And why didn't those guys cause the unholy fires of dragondom to come crashing down on them. I think I'll change them from halfdragons to something else draconic in nature The destruction of House Vol was instigated because Erandis was a half-dragon with a dragonmark. No half-dragon in the adventure has a dragonmark unless one of the PCs is a half-dragon...yikes, I just thought of that. Scary.
Amaril 04-19-07, 06:59 AM	The destruction of House Vol was instigated because Erandis was a half-dragon with a dragonmark. No half-dragon in the adventure has a dragonmarkI wonder if that should apply to dragon disciples, dragon shaman, or dragonfire adepts.
davethebrave371 04-19-07, 12:41 PM	I wonder if that should apply to dragon disciples, dragon shaman, or dragonfire adepts. Dragon disciples might cause a bit of a ruckus, if they were max level in the PrC...though that would mean they're a little high level to be in this adventure as it was designed. As for the two base classes, neither confers the half-dragon template or dragon type on the character at any point, even 20th level, so I think you're safe. Sure, you might get the dragonblood subtype, but I think that'd be fine.
Xaxor 04-19-07, 01:23 PM	The art gallery has been up for three days now, but I finally looked at it. I had to laugh when I saw this guy (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sarlona_gallery/103017.jpg) hidden in the one chapter opener. I don't know if I'll be buying this one since I don't have a group running through Eberron. Still, it looks awesome.
davethebrave371 04-19-07, 01:26 PM	The art gallery has been up for three days now, but I finally looked at it. I had to laugh when I saw this guy (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sarlona_gallery/103017.jpg) hidden in the one chapter opener. I don't know if I'll be buying this one since I don't have a group running through Eberron. Still, it looks awesome. Secrets of Sarlona?
Amaril 04-19-07, 01:40 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eotlq_gallery/104112.jpg Look in the bottom right of the image. It's mirrored, but it's there.
davethebrave371 04-19-07, 01:52 PM	http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eotlq_gallery/104112.jpg Look in the bottom right of the image. It's mirrored, but it's there. HAHAHAHA, oh man that's awesome! I wonder if he's a Sarlonan in the party, or a random Sarlonan guy working with the dwarves?
Amaril 04-19-07, 03:49 PM	The destruction of House Vol was instigated because Erandis was a half-dragon with a dragonmark. No half-dragon in the adventure has a dragonmark unless one of the PCs is a half-dragon...yikes, I just thought of that. Scary. As I understood it, the elves and dragons disapproved of the crossbreeding between elves and dragons; the mark of death, which was the most powerful dragonmark at the time, was an additional threat.
davethebrave371 04-19-07, 05:34 PM	As I understood it, the elves and dragons disapproved of the crossbreeding between elves and dragons; the mark of death, which was the most powerful dragonmark at the time, was an additional threat. You've got exactly the right strength of word there. Disapproved. That was about it. They wouldn't have united to wipe them out over mere disapproval. But I get your meaning, and according to Keith Baker, while half-dragons are frowned upon in general (and half-dragon elves in particular), action is generally not taken, and if it is, it's to the dragon parent creating all these progeny. The big issue was the dragonmark. The AKB threads have this stuff pretty well covered, as well as various threads in here Keith has posted in with regards to this very issue.
WarlockDa 04-19-07, 06:54 PM	I know, he mentioned he'd only thumbed through the first dozen pages, so I assumed he hadn't gotten that far anyway. Actually I did jump to the end and read that part as well....while checking for the answer to my original question. I mainly found it odd because normally, at least with my group, we tried to limit dragonmarks. Figuring since they should be somewhat rare, the entire shouldn't have them. Though I do think this adds a nice "something special" for the PCs to have to deal with for the remainder of their lives, which could be fairly short once the Houses and Vol learn of their new gifts :D
Macbrea 04-20-07, 08:03 AM	My major problem with it is the text. The text your suppose to be able to read for your players is about as readable as this. So, it kind of breaks up the scene when you have to hold the book to your face and squint! Yup.... pretty unreadable. I am going to have to make larger cards to read besides the module.
Orci 04-21-07, 02:41 PM	The Map on page 84 is missing the markings of C1 and C2... C1 is there, but nowhere near the place, the adventure seems do describe it...
cancerousmango 04-22-07, 01:49 AM	Can't...read...stupid...new...format. I have no idea what the plot is. I can't read this idiotic new format. Jesus. 20 wasted bucks.
davethebrave371 04-22-07, 02:16 AM	Can't...read...stupid...new...format. I have no idea what the plot is. I can't read this idiotic new format. Jesus. 20 wasted bucks. ...are you serious? I can read it fine. Better, even. This is probably the best Eberron adventure yet.
Shroomy 04-25-07, 05:21 PM	I purchased the adventure on Sunday and I'm almost done with the final chapter. For the most part, I really like it; it has a nice mix of encounters and great action set pieces (I really liked the incorporation of the ToB and psionic material in a concise and easy to use format). However, I do have a few complaints. First, I thought that the editing was really bad, and I'm not talking about a few typos or stat block errors (though there are some of those) that I just gloss over. There are missing sections of text and map errors. I noticed this right away when the adventure describes a treasure chest with an elaborate lock, though its contents can be found in the non-existent "Treasure" section. Most of the problems are confined to the tactical encounters (one of which was missing a map); rules regarding the terrain, which I've come to expect after reading other recent WoTC adventures, were often ommitted. Also, much of the tactical and extra content was squeezed by the stat blocks, something that the longer FR adventure Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave did not suffer. Second, and this is the only real problem I found with the adventure as written, is that some of the read aloud text is of the bad sort, meaning, that it describes actions that happen regardless of PC action. For example, when Dura animates the giant squid zombie; that should have been part of her tactics, not part of the room description. Naughty Nick and Tim, I didn't see this in your Dungeon adventures! ;)
Amaril 04-25-07, 05:29 PM	Second, and this is the only real problem I found with the adventure as written, is that some of the read aloud text is of the bad sort, meaning, that it describes actions that happen regardless of PC action. For example, when Dura animates the giant squid zombie; that should have been part of her tactics, not part of the room description. Naughty Nick and Tim, I didn't see this in your Dungeon adventures! ;) Hmmm... That reminds me a bit of certain encounters in Whispers of the Vampire's Blade.
Nlogue 04-25-07, 05:49 PM	Second, and this is the only real problem I found with the adventure as written, is that some of the read aloud text is of the bad sort, meaning, that it describes actions that happen regardless of PC action. For example, when Dura animates the giant squid zombie; that should have been part of her tactics, not part of the room description. Naughty Nick and Tim, I didn't see this in your Dungeon adventures! ;) ::Nick blushes, hides, and cries:: ;) Sorry about that Shroomy! Won't happen again. Just hard not to acknowledge that shiny new dragonmark in some of the boxed text...I thought I'd get away with it, but you caught me!!! :) To tell the truth I am really not a big fan of boxed text at all, I feel like it really gets in the way of how an individual DM tells their story of the adventure...and now look what I did, made even more of a roadblock! I won't do that again Shrooms. Hope you liked the rest of it though. Ah, Dungeon adventures...don't speak of it Shroomy! It hurts too much to think about. :(
Roren 04-26-07, 03:02 PM	Are they adapting for the Xen'drik Expeditions Campaign Setting? If so, what are they doing for the players, since the campaign is from levels 5-10, and the current level kick is 4th?
DBlizzard 04-26-07, 05:09 PM	Are they adapting for the Xen'drik Expeditions Campaign Setting? If so, what are they doing for the players, since the campaign is from levels 5-10, and the current level kick is 4th? The info we have is in this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=832876) in the RPGA forums.
manneedshaircut 04-26-07, 09:01 PM	I got the book a week ago and have been slowly working my way through it. I love it, much better done than the original Eberron adventures. My only concern is that the first chapter seems to be a touch harsh. Warning, real spoilers ahead: It would be very easy to incurr player death in this section, especially with the canoloths on the bridge Also, what would you suggest be the best way to insert players into the party after chapter 1, since certain events have conspired to make the players different from the rest of the world?
Nlogue 04-27-07, 12:18 AM	Also, what would you suggest be the best way to insert players into the party after chapter 1, since certain events have conspired to make the players different from the rest of the world? This is a really good question and one I wrestled with a lot when I ran it with my friends out here in Hawai'i. Some options: 1. There own reasons. Give the new players a serious motivation to learn more about the Dragon's Eye, and or aid the party in their quest against the Emerald Claw...even so though, this option leaves them out of the dragonmark fun (which gets especially fun near the end of Chapter Four). 2. Simply say the new PCs blacked out for a week, or had a strange inexplicable dream in which they were drawn to the Temple in Chapter One, and they suddenly awaken awash with sweat in some unfamiliar place (not far from the other PCs), with the strange new dragonmark. Chessy I know, but not too far out of line for pulp/noir fun (blackouts, amnesia, and the grit that follows are fun to play with).
niddhogg 04-27-07, 05:58 AM	(massive) spoilers ahead ... I'm hesitating about the new dragonmarks that the players are forced to bear (end of part1), since some of my players (or more precisely their characters) refuse dragonmarks and the dragonmark houses at all. Nevertheless i like the Eyes of the Lich Queen adventure beside this one aspect. Now i'm considering to either remove this "you get a dragonmark!" aspect (but this would change the adventure notable) or to adjust the showdown such that the players may loose their "temporary" dragonmarks again due to the power surge / consumption of the artifact. And maybe one should let these dragonmarks slowly "fade away" in the latter case to grant the players the advantages (fast healing/5) during the final fight against that bluespawn thing. Any objections or suggestions to handle this?
shadowpavement 04-27-07, 08:03 AM	It would be very easy to incurr player death in this section, especially with the canoloths on the bridge When I eventually run this adventure my plan is to skip most of that stuff in the first chapter and have the secret door in the dragon's lair lead right to the crypt. I find that too many intermediate fights with no plot forwarding value just take time and energy away from the real story that's going on. My players and I love killing bad guys as much as anyone. But when they're just there as an impedance and not part of the story it just gets tedius. Just my thoughts on it.
Jonasty 04-27-07, 11:20 AM	I purchased EotLQ when it came out and right off the bat I have to say, excellent job! I love the world of Eberron and its finally nice to have something that is designed to make use of all of the varied aspects that it offers. I've actually begun running the adventure and so far it has proven to be worth every penny. The look on my player's faces when I read the description of Vyrmistix(sp?, trying to avoid spoilers by saying who he is) the initial temple guard, was priceless. It's really great that the adventure incorporates enough new monsters/ideas into it to make it fresh for everyone. While I started playing D&D when 3.0 had come out, my group is made up mostly of people who have been playing since 1st edition so its nice to be able to surprise them with things they are ACTUALLY unfamiliar with rather than the "typical" D&D monsters that they've seen for years. I mean I can't wait till they encounter the dream demon. (Those familiar with Eberron can guess what I'm referencing without spoiling it, but its so different from what any of my 1st edition players have ever seen I purposely ordered the mini for it on Ebay, just to see the look on their faces when I plop that sucker down on the table. :D ) As to complaints about the encounter format, I don't understand where the problem some people have is coming from. They are clearly laid out in a way that is easy to follow and gives you all the info you need to play. I usually have to haul 5-7 seperate books with me each week to run my game but now I pack up EotLQ and my dice and that's it. Plus it cuts down on all the prep time cause its already prepped for you. If this has happened then read A, if not read B. I happen to be playing in the new Ravenloft adventure and when thats done I will be running Demonweb Pits along with EotLQ, and without the new format I would never be able to manage two huge adventures at the same time. So bottom line, excellent job with the new format IMO and keep it up. One of my only gripes (besides the editing but that will happen in any book, I know Ravenloft had some missing info at times) is the reference to materials I don't have. While I own a majority of the books for D&D, ToB is not one of them and while I like that an NPC uses a class from it (see my point of old hats to the game above) there is not enough info given for me to use that particular NPC. Maneuvers, are they standard actions, how many can you use per round, do they provoke AoO, etc? There was no supporting material for this at all which means either buying ToB specifically for this (more appropriately thumbing through it for this particualr rule ;) ) or redoing the NPC build with something basic which I would prefer not to do. Ultimately I'll probably scan through ToB and find out more but it would have been nice to not have to deal with that in the first place. The other thing that is not so much a gripe as a wish for the future would be more art. My DM for Ravenloft has printed up numerous pieces of art off the wizards.com site from the book to be able to truly freak us out with when he says the horrible thing gets you AND IT LOOKS LIKE THIS! I will be able to do the same when I run Demonwebs, however this is not really the case for EotLQ. I wish I could show them a horrific picture of the encounter they are having/about to have, rather than just printing the "stock" photo of a monster from the appropriate MM and saying this is it. More artwork next time guys would be my biggest suggestion for the next adventure no matter what setting its for. Got a little long winded here but ultimately I love the adventure and I hope that we'll see another one sometime in the future as Eberron is definetly a world worthy of more than one.
davethebrave371 04-27-07, 03:34 PM	BIG SPOILER QUESTION! Dragon PCs. We don't have one right now, but Dragon #320 gives rules, and by the time we get to that adventure, one of the players in my game may need to make a new character, and this is an option I've always left open. If they take it, what would you do about a) the Marks and b) Sur'kil's reaction to that PC?
Amaril 04-27-07, 04:07 PM	BIG SPOILER QUESTION! Dragon PCs. We don't have one right now, but Dragon #320 gives rules, and by the time we get to that adventure, one of the players in my game may need to make a new character, and this is an option I've always left open. If they take it, what would you do about a) the Marks and b) Sur'kil's reaction to that PC? That's an interesting idea that I have been exercising as well. I would require the dragon be one that can polymorph, and would set up that PC as an agent of the chamber whom Sur'kil had assigned to accompany the PCs. The other possibility I'm exploring is having a regular PC race that is a dragon shaman or dragonfire adept and using content from Dragon Magic.
Nlogue 04-27-07, 05:10 PM	That's an interesting idea that I have been exercising as well. I would require the dragon be one that can polymorph, and would set up that PC as an agent of the chamber whom Sur'kil had assigned to accompany the PCs. The other possibility I'm exploring is having a regular PC race that is a dragon shaman or dragonfire adept and using content from Dragon Magic. That's a very fun solution Amaril!
davethebrave371 04-27-07, 05:42 PM	That's an interesting idea that I have been exercising as well. I would require the dragon be one that can polymorph, and would set up that PC as an agent of the chamber whom Sur'kil had assigned to accompany the PCs. The other possibility I'm exploring is having a regular PC race that is a dragon shaman or dragonfire adept and using content from Dragon Magic. That doesn't really work for me. What I mean is, the dragon PC may be in the group quite a bit before I run the adventure, and the concept might be a hatchling (who still often have above human average intellect) who takes class levels mixed in with his (or her) advancement through the "dragon" class, gaining hit dice and eventually an age category. Likely, if it is a hatchling, the egg will have been found shortly after the character of the player dies. So Sur'kil couldn't have sent this dragon as an agent. Besides, the earliest level a dragon PC can get any sort of alter form/polymorph is 13th! And besides, that doesn't address the Mark issue. Would the Dragon get a Mark? And if so, would it be Aberrant, given the connection of true dragons to Siberys and the complete disconnect from Khyber and anything Khyber-related?
Amaril 04-27-07, 05:43 PM	That's a very fun solution Amaril! Thanks! I don't know what it is, but despite the sensory overload of dragon-related material last year, I've been on a kick to run a dragon-themed campaign, but I'm also still interested in keeping my Eberron campaign going. I think Eyes of the Lich Queen might be the solution. If the PCs are 5th-level characters starting off, they can easily dip into a couple levels of special dragon-themed prestige classes during the adventure, too.
Amaril 04-27-07, 05:49 PM	That doesn't really work for me. What I mean is, the dragon PC may be in the group quite a bit before I run the adventure, and the concept might be a hatchling (who still often have above human average intellect) who takes class levels mixed in with his (or her) advancement through the "dragon" class, gaining hit dice and eventually an age category. Likely, if it is a hatchling, the egg will have been found shortly after the character of the player dies. So Sur'kil couldn't have sent this dragon as an agent. Besides, the earliest level a dragon PC can get any sort of alter form/polymorph is 13th! And besides, that doesn't address the Mark issue. Would the Dragon get a Mark? And if so, would it be Aberrant, given the connection of true dragons to Siberys and the complete disconnect from Khyber and anything Khyber-related? Well, the dragon PC could then be an object of focus for the Chamber (how and where was the hatchling found, by the way?), and be the reason for initial contact could be associated with that. Additionally, he could have a strong tie to the Draconic Prophecy. Be careful, though. The player is already special enough for being a dragon, and you wouldn't want the player to overshadow the others. Regarding he Mark, definitely no for obvious reasons.
davethebrave371 04-27-07, 06:15 PM	Well, the dragon PC could then be an object of focus for the Chamber (how and where was the hatchling found, by the way?), and be the reason for initial contact could be associated with that. Additionally, he could have a strong tie to the Draconic Prophecy. Be careful, though. The player is already special enough for being a dragon, and you wouldn't want the player to overshadow the others. Regarding he Mark, definitely no for obvious reasons. I was about to say, "They aren't so obvious to me." and suddenly it hit me. The Dragon's Eye was developed by a rajah to be a weapon against the dragons. Soooo...likely, there'd be no way it would work in a positive way on the dragon in the group. I think something BAD might be a good idea though...Mr. Logue, any ideas on that? Oh, and the dragon PC isn't in the group yet, but it'll be a couple months of other plot elements in my campaign before we get to this adventure, and any time in that the PC could die. It could be next session. If it is, then that's a couple months of the dragon in the group. Likely the dragon egg's origins will be tailored to where they are when they find it.
Paranoia833 04-27-07, 06:26 PM	There is not enough info given for me to use that particular NPC. Maneuvers, are they standard actions, how many can you use per round, do they provoke AoO, etc? There was no supporting material for this at all which means either buying ToB specifically for this (more appropriately thumbing through it for this particualr rule ;) ) or redoing the NPC build with something basic which I would prefer not to do. Ultimately I'll probably scan through ToB and find out more but it would have been nice to not have to deal with that in the first place. If you want me to save you some time, all the maneuvres the enemy in question uses are standard actions, with a single attack included in the action. They don't provoke attacks of opportunity. In fact the Exarch is slightly weaker than a by-the-book crusader as he isn't using any stances. He should have two level one stances and a level three stance. If for whatever reason you're a stickler for accuracy just say that five-foot-steps and withdraw actions provoke attacks of opportunity for the Exarch as that's the stance he's most likely to use.
Nlogue 04-27-07, 06:29 PM	I like the idea of something BAD happening to the dragon. But at the same time it doesn't have to be immediately bad. Could seem good at first...but gestate badly...like the dragon gains this strange scorch-mark on its scales, that festers like a wound, but grants it a minor ability (that is just slighty evil tinged)...as the adventure progresses the mark spreads granting further powers but shifting the PC's alignment toward evil irrevocably...so basically the adventure also becomes a dire quest to save this dragon's soul from becoming a twisted instrument of the rajahs. Dunno, what do you guys think? Might make the final showdown even cooler, as the dragon PC turns mid battle and the others have to do their best not to kill him (either because of kinship and loyalty, or perhaps worse, Sur'kil makes it clear to them that the dragon PC is a very important piece of the prophecy and a lot hinges on his survival, and his remaining good and not evil). I just rambled this out of my brain right now, so let me know what you think and we can revise it.
davethebrave371 04-27-07, 06:43 PM	I like the idea of something BAD happening to the dragon. But at the same time it doesn't have to be immediately bad. Could seem good at first...but gestate badly...like the dragon gains this strange scorch-mark on its scales, that festers like a wound, but grants it a minor ability (that is just slighty evil tinged)...as the adventure progresses the mark spreads granting further powers but shifting the PC's alignment toward evil irrevocably...so basically the adventure also becomes a dire quest to save this dragon's soul from becoming a twisted instrument of the rajahs. Dunno, what do you guys think? Might make the final showdown even cooler, as the dragon PC turns mid battle and the others have to do their best not to kill him (either because of kinship and loyalty, or perhaps worse, Sur'kil makes it clear to them that the dragon PC is a very important piece of the prophecy and a lot hinges on his survival, and his remaining good and not evil). I just rambled this out of my brain right now, so let me know what you think and we can revise it. I was thinking more along the lines of a magical sickness that worsens, no abilities granted. Having a dragon in the adventure is unique enough that I think the weapon should be doing what it was designed to do. As the "fraction of its power" turned out to be a godslayer that, if the PCs weren't there to stop, would end up gaining more and more power as it killed more and more dragons, I think the effect on the dragon PC should be something destructive. Sort of like a no-save magical disease that progresses as a dramatic device until the final bit, where it worsens the closer they get to the power source. I was just trying to think of a good mechanical downside that could progress without being TOO crippling, and then a suitably crippling effect for the final battle, followed perhaps by a complete recovery when the power source shatters. On that note, I had a question...the adventure states that the Star Orb was the power source on page 123, but everywhere else they say the orb at the top floor which explodes at the end is the power source. Obviously it's actually the orb at the top, but then what is the Star Orb?
Nlogue 04-27-07, 06:57 PM	Damn. Just typed up a huge message and the boards ate it. Sucks! Summarized version: I don't know if going the sick route is such a good idea, only cause it isn't a lot of fun for your player. He's all dying and stuff, while the other PCs get cool sleek fresh new dragonmarks. It'd be fine if this was an NPC, but as a PC I'd be a little bummed that everyone else got marks and I got sick. One of my original concepts of the Weapon of the Rajahs was that it did not destroy dragons...it warped them into something evil that they could then bring to heel and use against other dragons as pawns. That may have gotten lost in the editing shuffle, as I haven't read the final version thoroughly through yet...but I think its a cool idea and very in-line with how the rakshasas operate...they are sinister, sneaky and corruptive. So, if this young dragon PC is some sort of important lynchpin to the Prophecy (this is great cause it makes the player feel really important and gives the rest of the party great motivation to take care of him) then it would be neat if the altar begins to corrupt him, maybe even giving him some powers as he changes (thus this character doesn't miss out on the "boost" the other players get). It also creates a really cool conflict in the story. Now the rest of the party's new ally and friend is being warped into evil and they have to save him and help him save himself. I think this is a stronger plot device than a sickness, but that said, that's only for me. I don't know your players, so if you think the illness is the way to go, then do it up my man. Heck, your players might turn on the poor dragon as soon as they realize the curse is evil-izing him, and that'd be even less fun than getting sick. :)
davethebrave371 04-27-07, 07:17 PM	Damn. Just typed up a huge message and the boards ate it. Sucks! Summarized version: I don't know if going the sick route is such a good idea, only cause it isn't a lot of fun for your player. He's all dying and stuff, while the other PCs get cool sleek fresh new dragonmarks. It'd be fine if this was an NPC, but as a PC I'd be a little bummed that everyone else got marks and I got sick. One of my original concepts of the Weapon of the Rajahs was that it did not destroy dragons...it warped them into something evil that they could then bring to heel and use against other dragons as pawns. That may have gotten lost in the editing shuffle, as I haven't read the final version thoroughly through yet...but I think its a cool idea and very in-line with how the rakshasas operate...they are sinister, sneaky and corruptive. So, if this young dragon PC is some sort of important lynchpin to the Prophecy (this is great cause it makes the player feel really important and gives the rest of the party great motivation to take care of him) then it would be neat if the altar begins to corrupt him, maybe even giving him some powers as he changes (thus this character doesn't miss out on the "boost" the other players get). It also creates a really cool conflict in the story. Now the rest of the party's new ally and friend is being warped into evil and they have to save him and help him save himself. I think this is a stronger plot device than a sickness, but that said, that's only for me. I don't know your players, so if you think the illness is the way to go, then do it up my man. Heck, your players might turn on the poor dragon as soon as they realize the curse is evil-izing him, and that'd be even less fun than getting sick. :) Actually, that sounds almost better. Maybe give the player abilities that line up with the type of dragon chosen, as regards dragonspawn. So if they chose any of the "evil" dragon types (not that they're evil or good all the time in Eberron), line it up with their choice (i.e. if they're a white dragon, some sort of whitespawn abilities, etc). If they're good, either line it up by power (so that Gold becomes Red, Silver to Blue, Bronze to Green, Copper to Black and Brass to White) or else by element (Gold to Red, Silver to White, Bronze to Black, Copper to Blue and ...Brass to Green? Hmm...) or breath weapon (Gold to Red, Silver to White, Bronze to Blue, Copper to Green and ...Brass to Black?). I guess Brass doesn't line up well. Gold lines up REAL well. I have a feeling it'd be Bronze though, due to the earlier ability to alter form, and the player's unnatural loathing of cold-related things (ruling out Silver's even EARLIER form changing). Hmmm...actually, except Gold, they don't match up well. I'll have to think on this.
Amaril 04-27-07, 08:16 PM	I was under the impression that dragons couldn't manifest dragonmarks, whis is why they were so perplexed by and obssessed with the dragonmarked races.
davethebrave371 04-27-07, 08:53 PM	I was under the impression that dragons couldn't manifest dragonmarks, whis is why they were so perplexed by and obssessed with the dragonmarked races. Yeah, that's the idea. NLogue's idea was more along the lines of a warped "mark" that actually isn't a Mark, more of a warping disease manifesting itself as some mockery of a mark. Remember, in the time the Dragon's Eye was made no race had yet manifested them, they were only manifest upon the land, the sea, the air, etc. It seems likely, given that, that the device would have manifested some sort of warped Khyber mark effect above-ground that granted control over dragons in some sufficiently horrific way. Now that they can manifest on mortals, a lesser manifestation of it, a mere fraction of its power, unlocks that prophetic potential without the taint of Khyber (well, not necessarily in any case) but would taint anything with the Dragon type with a sort of prophetic disease. Not really a Mark (and thus not kept after the adventure is over), but more of an unnatural manifestation of the prophecy, as the device originally intended but on as large a scale as it could manifest given the circumstances and lack of power (i.e. mortals and constructs getting Marks, and a dragon getting a "mark" that is more akin to what you'd see splayed across several miles of Khyber caves than to what you'd see even on a Child of Khyber).