Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dang 01-30-06, 10:49 PM	so, maybe i'm just a ditz, but did we already know fo sho that this book is coming out? cuz a fiery bovine who shall remain nameless just sortof confirmed it in another discussion thread... so, WHAT do Y'ALL want to see in it (other than more of wayne's art)? i've heard many requests for holy symbols and colors... anything else? fluff or crunch? will this be a real book, or just an entrapment scheme that forces us all to purchase other divine-based sourcebooks in order to use it? (yes, you know WoTC does that, don't lie.) what DON'T you want to see? i, for one, am eager for anything non-silver flame related... prestige classes for sovereign host characters that correspond to the pantheon as a whole, and to individual deities. maybe one for the undying court that fuses the arcane and priestly, like the arcane hierophant does for druids. i'd love to see more on the theorized amalgam deities that merge sovereigns and dark sixers, based on domains. oh - and additional aereni deathless who actually have high PC levels. deathless liches, anyone?
Belabras 01-30-06, 10:57 PM	If it's anything like Monastic orders (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041213a) I'll be one happy dude.
darkthought 01-30-06, 11:12 PM	I'm interested in anything for the Blood of Vol... yes I'm creepy, I know. Maybe something like the Libris Mortis Eberron Expanded article, but actually official.
Avarius 01-30-06, 11:27 PM	If they're going to be putting information about the Monastic Orders in the book, I would like them to cover the Monastary of Orlan-Ur near Wyr in Aundair. That place was just barely touched on, and sounded interesting. Especially since two of my players come from that area, and one is actually from the monastary. An interesting idea I have toyed with in my past campaigns is creating somewhat of a unique special mount for a Paladin of each God. Therefore, being a Paladin of the Soverign Host gives you the special mount, but one mount may appear more as a thick hoofed warmount with increased strength, while another has a golden coat and runs faster, etc. I think it adds a little bit of a unique feel for the Paladin, much like the Domains do for clerics. I would also like to learn a bit about some of the leaders in the churches. They have covered alot about Jaela Daran, Keeper of the Flame, but what about the other religions? Hmm...good thread. I will give it more thought.
ChimericalWolf 01-31-06, 12:45 AM	If they just sort of gloss over The Path of Light, I'm gonna be one upset guy. I'm hoping to see some good Divine Psionics.
Euangelion 01-31-06, 09:43 AM	I'd like to see the symbols of the individual Sovereigns.
Golbez57 01-31-06, 10:14 AM	I'd like to see the symbols of the individual Sovereigns. Q. F. E.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 01-31-06, 10:17 AM	Actually I don't think the SH should have individual symbols. I like the fact that they all have the same symbol, it shows their unity as a church. I mean their would probably be slight variations of the same symbol. Like vines binding a set of antlers to the symbol, or one with a shield and sword horizontally laying behind it with the symbol on the shield.
Edymnion 01-31-06, 10:33 AM	Personally, I'll be happy just as long as whoever is making it actually reads the damned setting first and doesn't sacrifice any more of Eberron's uniqueness just to appeal to the powergaming munchkins out there. Sorry, I'm just still ticked about PGtE having subraces in it. Gawd, whoever did that needs to be shot. In the face. With a hammer.
Missekat 01-31-06, 10:39 AM	Edy.. sweetie.. That was just to give xamples on where one might add the subraces if one should want to use them. Face it. People have different tastes, and some might even be weird enough to actually have a favorite subrace they would want to play. I know. The madness never ceases ;)
dang 01-31-06, 10:49 AM	Personally, I'll be happy just as long as whoever is making it actually reads the damned setting first... Amen. uniqueness aside, i'd just settle for some accuracy. also, i hope they seriously consider fleshing out the concepts already introduced, before throwing in lot of new half-baked content. furthermore, i'd appreciate some non-LE NPCs... has anyone noticed they all seem to be E or N?
Grymar 01-31-06, 11:08 AM	Actually I don't think the SH should have individual symbols. I like the fact that they all have the same symbol, it shows their unity as a church. I mean their would probably be slight variations of the same symbol. Like vines binding a set of antlers to the symbol, or one with a shield and sword horizontally laying behind it with the symbol on the shield. I understand your point, but just like the Greek gods had individual symbols, I think the Host does as well. I've made up my own for my game, but I'd be interested to see how they jive with what Wizards comes up with.
Edymnion 01-31-06, 11:18 AM	That was just to give xamples on where one might add the subraces if one should want to use them.Except that it didn't, it specifically said "This is where they are". The words "might be" or "could be" or "optional rule" never appear.
Golbez57 01-31-06, 11:41 AM	Actually I don't think the SH should have individual symbols. I like the fact that they all have the same symbol, it shows their unity as a church. I mean their would probably be slight variations of the same symbol. Like vines binding a set of antlers to the symbol, or one with a shield and sword horizontally laying behind it with the symbol on the shield. Actually, 'monkeyz, you begin a lot of your counterpoint posts--and there are plenty of 'em--with "actually". Heheh.
Wick 01-31-06, 11:44 AM	Except that it didn't, it specifically said "This is where they are". The words "might be" or "could be" or "optional rule" never appear. I guess I just can’t take any of the text in any of the books this seriously. When I am DM’ing, if I don’t like it, it is out. If you don’t like it sorry… The idea of “canon” as it relates to a game seems silly to me. But then again I have been playing this game since the early 80’s and have seen so much change over the years for good and bad that I just do as I please in my games. Rules lawyers bother me, it is just a game! Just my two pennies…
BuddyL33 01-31-06, 11:51 AM	To me this book seems wholey unnecessary. Eberron isn't a world ruled by deities like the FR. Devoting a whole bok to religion just doesn't seem to fit the world. If you did release said book, it should be packed full of sample groups, and such that follow the various religions, rather than information on the religions themselves. The Sovereign Host for instance, is worshiped differently from nation to nation. Although the same religion, it is followed completely different as you move throughout the world. Perhaps this could be detailed out. However, I think a Dragonshard would be more appropriate for something like this.
Wick 01-31-06, 11:54 AM	I suspect that if the book comes out it will be geared to players. And will address some of the Cleric and Druid issues that arise with Eberron.
Brastan 01-31-06, 12:19 PM	The one part of Complete Divine that I liked was deity entries that had rituals, duties, and example prayers listed. I hope that FoE contains listing like that for, at least, the major Eberron religions. It would be great to see this sort of martial for the different Druid sects as well as the Sovereign Host and Sliver Flame. I'd also like to see how different classes play a role in each religion. I've begun wondered what a Barbadian of the Silver Flame or Paladin of the Gatekeepers would look like. :plotting: Um... next reoccurring villain is going to be a Druid of Vol, with a focus on aberrant marks I think.
The_Last_Rogue 01-31-06, 12:28 PM	To me this book seems wholey unnecessary. Eberron isn't a world ruled by deities like the FR. Devoting a whole bok to religion just doesn't seem to fit the world. If you did release said book, it should be packed full of sample groups, and such that follow the various religions, rather than information on the religions themselves. The Sovereign Host for instance, is worshiped differently from nation to nation. Although the same religion, it is followed completely different as you move throughout the world. Perhaps this could be detailed out. However, I think a Dragonshard would be more appropriate for something like this. In regards to this and to Edymnion's opinion on the PGtE - - I am just glad for more fluff, more stuff to help us spark ideas that can be used in the great campaign world. I agree that sub-races in PGtE are not a good idea, however some may disagree - - I simply do not use them and make that crystal clear to my PC's. As long as we have an understanding I find the rest of the book to be wonderfully detailed and inspirational in regards to me coming up with ideas, npc's, and plots. I have a feeling I will feel much the same about this upcoming FoE book. It will doubtless have some things which will not mesh with my campaign as is well. On the other hand, it will likely (ie - hopefully) provide me with yet more sparks, information, and creative flow to add more depth to my campaign. In other words WotC -- consider it bought.
Logos7 01-31-06, 12:37 PM	I think the Lack of Divine Ranks make this book somewhat superflous The Church will be what a church is and my NPC's will most likely be somewhat notably exceptions and my PC's will be Horablly Notable Exceptions I think an Overall Organizations of Eberron book wouldn't be out of line, but does the church of Boldrei really Deserve more attention than the Aurom or the Wayfinder's Guild No not really Logos
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 01-31-06, 12:41 PM	Actually....ohh whoops sorry about that. I just feel that giving each host its own symbol will pretty much be the sign that they are "breaking" up. I know that each god needs more detail and individuality, but to me one of the kewl points about the SH that I point out to newbie Eberron Clerics and they are like "I want this domain and this domain, but the limited selection of gods and domains per god renders me retarded." At that point I reply, "Well you can just worship the pantheon as whole, see one symbol for all the SH. No individuals. Now if you want you can favor one of the gods over the others. Similar to how catholics argue over which Saint can kick what's Saint's butt." That's just my point, and sorry about the actually's that are roaming around there, I have no life..... :weep: PS: Other then the whole symbol thing I think some fluff on the religions (holidays, festivities, rituals, etc) would rock.
MrFilthyIke 01-31-06, 12:52 PM	Sorry, I'm just still ticked about PGtE having subraces in it. Gawd, whoever did that needs to be shot. In the face. With a hammer. Including Keith??
Edymnion 01-31-06, 12:56 PM	I guess I just can’t take any of the text in any of the books this seriously.Yeah, but it boils down to the fact that any blatant errors in these books are still in the fundamental building blocks of the campaign, which means all future books run the risk of incorperating them. Sure, I can easily tell the players that the info is wrong and shouldn't be there, and problem fixed, for now. Until the next books start coming out that have feats and PrC just for those subraces (or whatever other incorrect material was published). Its a slippery slope, and I'd rather they stop trying to push us down it.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 01-31-06, 01:56 PM	Edy I'm sure KB is sorry that he didn't stay true to your vision of Eberron. lol. I mean no one is as much an expert on the flavor and style of Eberron as you dude. :D
Edymnion 01-31-06, 02:04 PM	Edy I'm sure KB is sorry that he didn't stay true to your vision of Eberron. lol. I mean no one is as much an expert on the flavor and style of Eberron as you dude. :D:PIncluding Keith??Hey, Keith ain't perfect neither. That whole "Male changlings getting pregnant" thing proved that :D
dang 01-31-06, 02:11 PM	To me this book seems wholey unnecessary. Eberron isn't a world ruled by deities like the FR. Devoting a whole bok to religion just doesn't seem to fit the world. If you did release said book, it should be packed full of sample groups, and such that follow the various religions, rather than information on the religions themselves. The Sovereign Host for instance, is worshiped differently from nation to nation. Although the same religion, it is followed completely different as you move throughout the world. Perhaps this could be detailed out. However, I think a Dragonshard would be more appropriate for something like this. hmmm... i see your point, but i think eberron religions are a lot MORE complex than those of the realms. with the exception of the U.C. and occasionally the S.F., the gods can't just say to their followers, "no, worship me like THIS, i'm neutral good!" multiple interpretations require more explanation, which in turn necessitates a book. plus, check the ask Keith threads for how many questions focus on religion -- it's staggering. we don't have Times of Troubles or avatars stalking the earth, but look at what religions have done to our world!
Rowan_Whispercloak 01-31-06, 02:30 PM	I would rather than there be a specific book just for the religions maybe some more dragonshard articles that give those detail like in the "Complete Divine". However I would like to think that there would be some differences in how the different culture worship (different rites, the importance of certain in some sects, etc...) I think in the form of web articles there is alway room for growth. That and Keith Baker would have a lot more say in an aspect that may be overlooked by the mass of Wizards Development Boards (or insert their proper title here.) No offense to them I haven't been especial diappointed in them the one that sticks in my mind most is that lack of a index in the "Sharn: City of Towers" source book.
Edymnion 01-31-06, 02:36 PM	the one that sticks in my mind most is that lack of a index in the "Sharn: City of Towers" source book.He has a printable index for it on his website.
Euangelion 01-31-06, 02:58 PM	I'll jump back in and say that since the SH is not a very organized religion that it is more likely to have several different symbols for each Sovereign than it is to use the one symbol of the pantheon for each individual Sovereign as well, especially with the Host incorporating the aspects of the worship of various racial deities as it comes into contact with new cultures. In other words I can see a draconic-inspired symbol for Dol Arrah that's different than one borrowed from, well, let's say the Talenta Plains halflings. I can also see the individual symbols/emblems/seals incorportating the one for the pantheon, or that whenever the individual symbol is displayed the one for the pantheon is near it in some way (whether next to, above, or below) to highlight the connection to the Host as a whole while at the same time honoring the individual Sovereign and his/her foci in the world. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. Edit: for example, the symbol for Kol Korran could be a gold coin with the pantheon symbol stamped on it, or the symbol of Onatar could be an anvil in front of the pantheon symbol, or Dol Arrah could be an image of the sun with the pantheon symbol in the center.
The_Last_Rogue 01-31-06, 03:06 PM	I think an Overall Organizations of Eberron book wouldn't be out of line, but does the church of Boldrei really Deserve more attention than the Aurom or the Wayfinder's Guild No not really Logos Good point, an in-depth and detailed look at religion in the context of other orginizations would have been much better. Essentially the churches are just other orginizations. I would not be surprised if eventually we are given a book that details the rest of the orginizations (Aurumn, Order of the Emerald Claw, Wayfinder's etc.) but I must agree they could have created great sourcebook by including religion in with that group; especially when considering the scope and mystery surrounding the churches (ie- do the gods exist?), it may be better to approach them as orginizations that are involved in activities A,B & C and that think about topics X, Y, & Z in this manner -- as opposed to delving into their religious aspects alone (I hope this makes sense, i began to wander a bit there) Another point I want to echo is Edymnion's "slippery slope" comment. True, I will be dissapointed if they began to implement and further advance the groundwork for subraces that they seemed to have planted in the PGtE. I feel it would rob some of the orginality and freedom we have come to enjoy in Eberron -- but I hold out hope that they will not do that to us.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 01-31-06, 03:13 PM	Edy I'm glad you saw the humor in that. I like some of the things in RoE (particularly the pregnant changling), but mostly for humor when the party bard try to change back to a human.
polt 01-31-06, 03:50 PM	Except that it didn't, it specifically said "This is where they are". The words "might be" or "could be" or "optional rule" never appear. Who cares? The way I see it, everything written in RPG books are optinional and "could be"s.
The Dreaming Duck 01-31-06, 05:32 PM	Sorry, I'm just still ticked about PGtE having subraces in it. Gawd, whoever did that needs to be shot. In the face. With a hammer. Including Keith?? Just because Keith worked on the PGtE doesn't mean he supported all of it or was responsible for everything in it. Check his posts: he's always been a strong voice against the use of subraces in the past. The role of samurai is completely different from what he's suggested. Even the Gray Tide principality in the Lhazaar Principalities is mentioned as following the Reality Seeker path... while Keith's dragonshard notably omitted any mention of the three changeling paths from RoE. And that's not even getting into things like half-elves with human dragonmarks. In a book like PGtE, there's no simply way to ascertain who wrote what... but I certainly wouldn't assume that just because Keith's name is on the cover that he approves of everything inside.
Euangelion 01-31-06, 06:15 PM	This is getting way off topic, but I fail to see what the fuss is about with subraces, Keith included. Look at it this way: goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are in essence subraces of the goblinoid race. Kalashtar, changelings, empty vessels and shifters are basically subraces of humans. Poison dusk and blackscale lizardfolk are variations on MM lizardfolk. There's reasons why they differ from the race from which they originated conceptually, but that could be true for any of the MM subraces of dwarves, elves, halflings, and gnomes, and mechanically they're about as similar to the original concept as most MM, etc. subraces. (Kind of makes you wonder, though, why no one gives them credit for refraining from putting every possible sub-race into the PGtE.) For crying out loud, just because Keith isn't so keen on subraces doesn't mean that being fond of them makes one illegible for playing in an Eberron campaign. Personally, I kind of like the idea that some of the Keepers of the Past in Adar are gray elves, who are the descendents of a group of elves that were blown off course while fleeing from Xen'drik to Aerenal, and who later served (against their will) as the source of the elven blood that went into the creation of the empty vessels. Living in their monastery they have developed sharper minds at the expense of physical strength. (Edit: heck, they could even be the ones who brought the practice of arcane magic to Sarlona in the first place./edit) We will ever see that in print? I hope not, but it doesn't mean that there's not some merit to the idea. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised that the way that subraces have been presented in PGtE is to protect DMs from overzealous anti-subrace players who scream "There are no subraces in Eberron because Keith doesn't like them!" at their stunned DM who happens to like the goliaths (edit: or whisper gnomes /edit) from Races of Stone.
Edymnion 01-31-06, 06:31 PM	This is getting way off topic, but I fail to see what the fuss is about with subraces, Keith included.You're missing the point here, I think. Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears are three very differant creatures. Not allowing subraces has nothing to do with not letting in Goliaths. What I (and many others) don't like in subraces is that they are, bottom line, nothing more than fanboyism at it's best, and munchkinism at it's worst. Rewriting an entire race just so you don't get a penalty (or worse yet, so that you do get a bonus) in whatever type of character you want to play. Strong elves for elf fighters, smart elves for elf wizards, that sort of thing. At the best, its just a fanboy that wants the elf (or whatever other race is being used) to be the uber thing at everything. At worst, its a case of "I like bonus A, but I don't like penalty B, so I'm going to rewrite it so that I can get bonuses to everything!". Its all about having physically differant subraces when the only real change is cultural. I mean, look at what Eberron has now. The Valenar work quite well, and they don't need any racial changes to back up being highly skilled warriors. There's nothing a subrace can do that justifies having anything more than some racial weapons and skills changed around. An elf with +2 strength as a racial thing means they are as big and beefy as any half-orc, as a race, and thats just wrong...
Rechan 01-31-06, 06:40 PM	First and foremost the one thing that I want is consistency with Eberron material and fluff. Just like the "Half-elves with elven and human dragonmarks", I want things to mesh darnit. Be consistent! WotC, Give the authors of this book the ECS and make them read it before sitting down at the computer. Oh hey, while we're wishfully thinking, how about giving Keith control about what goes in the book? :P I want details on the Blood of Vol. Not just "Evil undead monsters behind the scenes", but the details of the church itself, the dogma, etc. The one part of Complete Divine that I liked was deity entries that had rituals, duties, and example prayers listed. I hope that FoE contains listing like that for, at least, the major Eberron religions. It would be great to see this sort of martial for the different Druid sects as well as the Sovereign Host and Sliver Flame. I'd also like to see how different classes play a role in each religion. I've begun wondered what a Barbadian of the Silver Flame or Paladin of the Gatekeepers would look like. :plotting: Um... next reoccurring villain is going to be a Druid of Vol, with a focus on aberrant marks I think. Allow me to emphatically support this. We know crap about the Children of Winter or the Greensingers aside from a little blurb in the ECS. Tell us more! I'd also like to see the relationship of clerics and paladins for the faiths - how do they differ? How do they act within the church, etc? And, how would clerics of the various pantheons act - what is the role of a cleric of the Undying Court? The Blood of Vol? Finally, I throw my support wholeheartedly to an Organization book. WotC, GIMMIE.
Rechan 01-31-06, 06:46 PM	Its all about having physically differant subraces when the only real change is cultural. I mean, look at what Eberron has now. The Valenar work quite well, and they don't need any racial changes to back up being highly skilled warriors. There's nothing a subrace can do that justifies having anything more than some racial weapons and skills changed around. An elf with +2 strength as a racial thing means they are as big and beefy as any half-orc, as a race, and thats just wrong... I can see a good reason to have subraces if they were, say, exposed to a form of magical phenomena over a period of time, like say a Manifest zone, over a source of magic (like a proximity to a Rajah's imprisonment), or various interbreeding with something Else, like say elves and fey - further enriching the bonds to fae in elven blood. Except that last example would be more like a tiefling - ancestral lineage in the bloodline but not enough to be a "Half-x".
Euangelion 01-31-06, 06:53 PM	You're missing the point here, I think... Actually, I understand why many, including you and Keith, don't like subraces. But take kalashtar. You'd have to admit, I think, that they're a psionic subrace of humans (apart from not having the humanoid (human) subtype). Sure, there's a reason for it, a good reason in fact. But that doesn't take away from the fact that mechanically they're better at psionics than a regular human, so a psionic fanboy is most likely going to want to play them (as long as they can't play an empty vessel!) And isn't it interesting that the very subrace you use as an example as why subraces should be avoided isn't even in the PGtE?
Arcane Guyver 01-31-06, 07:05 PM	Heh, I actually houseruled it so that kalashtar (as well as elans & maenads) have the (human) subtype. As far as Faiths of Eberron goes, I would very much like to hear more about beliefs and religious dogma/lore. Maybe a small chapter on deities that have been absorbed by the Sovereign Host (like Gar-Umesh). And definitely some crunch for faiths OTHER THAN the Silver Flame.
KP91 01-31-06, 07:28 PM	Double Post
KP91 01-31-06, 07:31 PM	I would love to see more on some holidays, and also would like to see examples of Holy Symbols. Some of the religions could have more information too. I would like to have some sort of system to know how high in the Church of Vol you have to get before they allow you to know Vol exists. A classification of other domains that can be used by each of the dieties. Some minor religions would be nice too, maybe a deity of chaotic but not evil magic. A few pre-stated priests/entire cults would be nice to plop into any campaign as a random encounter. Dragon below priests underground and Devorer pirates. ---------- As for the sub-race argument going on, I personally like them. Not as PCs but it allows you to customize NPCs or a remote village better. A species that live in a volcano and a species that live in a frozen environment that are related, just seems out of place.
talion09 01-31-06, 07:42 PM	<snip>... A species that live in a volcano and a species that live in a frozen environment that are related, just seems out of place. Hmm... that is weird. It would be almost like having humans living in diverse places like Hawai (Ocean Islands), Alaska (Artic), Colorado (High Altitude Mountainous) or Florida (Hot/Tropical)... and man, that would be weird without subraces, wouldn't it? :P
The_Last_Rogue 01-31-06, 08:47 PM	My take on the whole subrace thing: I personally am against them in my campaign. Let me repeat that, I am against subraces IN MY CAMPAIGN. If you like subraces then by all means use them and enjoy them. I do not hold that against you nor would I try to convince you that you should not use them (or incorporate them into Eberron for that matter). I do agree that my main problem with subraces is the whole different ability modifiers and the like. I much more like using the same race and then adding fluff (history, religion, tactics, language, alter appearance slightly perhaps) to make the the Dwarves of Mror Holds different than those who live in Frostfell (for example). Now if want to argue that having subraces that have different ability modifiers and the like is a better way to play -- that is fine. We could no doubt argue our 2 sides until the cows came home; and likely in the end would just have to agree to disagree. So while I do not hold a terrible grudge against the PGtE for including subraces and the like, I do wish that they would have written them in as suggestions so that players could have MORE EASILY TAKEN THEM OR LEFT THEM (I understand you can do that anyway, but Edymnion's right; they way they are written now they are 'canon' -- And the whole point of Eberron to me was to be given a framework where I could incorporate whatever I wanted from 3.5, not a place where I had to fit in or was told where everything was) Summary -- If you do not like subraces good for you; I don't have much use for most of them either. If you do, then that is great. I am glad to hear that they add to your campaign. I just wish the PGtE would have taken an equally middle road.
nastynate 01-31-06, 08:54 PM	I think this suppliment has the potential to be really fantastic. If it delves into the histories, structure, holidays, and cultural role served by various religions in various places it'll make me very happy. I'd love to know how much influence the Host has in Thrane, and how involved common people are in the Blood of Vol. I would enjoy knowing more about the Cults of the Dragon Below, and where they have the most power. The Church of the Silver Flame seems to have a very complicated structure with numerous different branches serving vastly different roles; I want details. What about the Path of Light and the Undying Court? What secrets do they keep hidden from outsiders? I don't really suspect this book will have anything to do with deity stats, avatars or anything like that. I think it will have a few spells, magic items, and perhaps some relics. There may be a few feats, and prestige classes, but I suspect it will be mostly good old fluffy details about the churches, followers, and their roles within the setting. I really hate having little more than a paragraph devoted to Dol Arrah, when I want to make a paladin devoted to her teachings. It's just so vague as currently written, that I have almost nothing to work with. I really like the religions of Eberron, even with just the little pieces we have, but I want more, and I'm actually going to get what I want. Yay for me! :D
Sieylianna 02-01-06, 07:13 AM	I think Eberron needs a sourcebook on the Dragonmark houses far more than it needs one on religions. That said, the religion section in the ECS is prety limited, I was looking for a deity with divination/oracle powers, but there isn't one. IMO, that is one of the fundamental areas of any pantheon. Ed
Euangelion 02-01-06, 08:13 AM	One thing I'd like to see in the Faiths of Eberron sourcebook is the totally official inclusion of the Shulassakar, fully statted out as a distinct race (not a subrace of humans or yuan-ti! ;) ), and more information on Krezent. Also more information on draconic religion would be good too, even if it includes saying that "This stuff from Dragonomicon and Races of the Dragon could fit here, here, here, but probably not there."
Hellcow 02-01-06, 01:53 PM	I was looking for a deity with divination/oracle powers, but there isn't one. It depends how specific you need the focus to be. Aureon is the Sovereign of Knowledge, both knowledge of past, present, and future (and in the Player's Guide his domains are expanded to include the Oracle domain). The Shadow is a source of darker knowledge, even the Fury can grant insight at the risk of madness. Meanwhile, the Silver Flame doesn't have the Oracle domain, but it can still guide and inspire its priests; after all, augury, divination, and commune are spells granted to any cleric, and I feel that many a priest has called on the Voice of the Flame for guidance. This also comes back to how you use clerics in the game. As DMs and players, WE know that a cleric can pray for any spells whatsoever. But as a DM, it's up to you to decide if they DO. If you want an Oracle of the Flame, have her only prepare divinatory spells; technically she could ask for hold person, but she never will, because it's not part of her devotions or her faith. Essentially, everything doesn't have to be defined by domains or PrCs; you can impose whatever restrictions you want, either as concrete house rules or simple decisions on the part of the individual. As a side note on this: Given that the ECS normally allows a character to follow a personal faith - selecting two domains representing the nature of his belief - I would certainly allow this to apply to the existing faiths as well as to entirely unique ones, provided the character in question has a clear and solid justification. Oracle is not one of the standard domains of the Silver Flame. But if a character was defined as being devoted to the Voice of the Flame - serving as a medium to bring Tira's words to the faithful - I'd be more than happy to let her take, say, the Good and Oracle domains.
Adhevan 02-01-06, 05:02 PM	I think Eberron needs a sourcebook on the Dragonmark houses far more than it needs one on religions. I agree with that statement. I'm not dissing a book giving more detail on the religions and its organizations and rituals, I'd just get much more immediate use out of a book on the Dragonmark Houses.
Rechan 02-01-06, 06:18 PM	I think Eberron needs a sourcebook on the Dragonmark houses far more than it needs one on religions. That said, the religion section in the ECS is prety limited, I was looking for a deity with divination/oracle powers, but there isn't one. IMO, that is one of the fundamental areas of any pantheon. Ed I find this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=442444) to be a great source on the Houses. While it's not a canon book, they are fleshed out very well here.
mhacdebhandia 02-02-06, 03:21 AM	There's no reason why the faiths of Eberron would be any more or less important than real-world religions are. I'm personally extremely excited that this supplement is coming out - I have an Honours degree in Studies in Religion so you'd better believe I enjoy making religion important in my games and to my characters. I would prefer that the writing for Eberron follow a consistent set of principles, but it's just not a deal-breaker for me if there are a handful of blatant errors in each product. If nothing else, it's not like they're hard to spot - one moon instead of thirteen, half-elves with human or elven dragonmarks, House Lyrandar airship crew with aberrant dragonmarks. This crap is incredibly easy to spot and excise. I think DMs who have trouble telling their players that they don't want to run Eberron with subraces (as an example) need to remember that, while they're not the God of the Game and don't have autocratic power, they still do have a voice and can simply refuse to run if their players don't share their preferences. I would certainly do so.
Kalanth 02-02-06, 03:30 AM	In all honesty, I would like to see a book similar in nature to the Holy Order of the Stars book for Dragonlance. A bit on each god, why people follow them, and a PrC to each god. Twist it around slightly, put something down for each god, and each religious group, each cult, and the why's to each. Then, for the crunch, one PrC per god, group, and cult. I think it would make for an interesting book. Oh, and Edy is kinda right, READ THE ECS BEFORE MAKING THE BOOK. Kinda important to avoid any stupid continuity errors. Errors on something abstract that recieved half a paragraph and no attention afterwards, that is fine, but to do something idiotic (hypothetical) like saying the Silver Flame is a Choatic Evil based religion that raises dead constantly and lives in the pits and caves of the Black Cap Mountains. . . well, that would be unacceptable.
DarkWarriorKarg 02-02-06, 08:55 AM	[...] And isn't it interesting that the very subrace you use as an example as why subraces should be avoided isn't even in the PGtE? It appears that Edy's rant about elves has dissapeared from Regdar's Repository. I guess he needs a new outlet. :D Back on topic. Faiths of Eberron, yes. I could use ideas on how the SH/D6 are portrayed in various nations/races/historical points. Personally, I see a lot of similarity between the SH/D6 and the universal church of Dragonstar. Economy of Eberron should be next (DM houses, how they interact with common mortals, etc.)
Euangelion 02-02-06, 10:23 AM	I think Eberron needs a sourcebook on the Dragonmark houses far more than it needs one on religions. I see the need as being equal. Religion in Eberron is so different than that of generic D&D that we're still discovering issues created by the "law of unintended consequences" (such as regarding the aura(s) of a paladin of a LE religion) that merit official rulings rather than adding one more burden on an already overworked DM. Of course, the sourcebook will only be helpful if it actually addresses those issues. Edit: thus I'd also like to see guidelines (not necessarily hard and fast rules)on how to handle the mechanics (especially with domains) such as when a cleric of Kol Korran converts to the Silver Flame, since there's not going to be a god that's going to strike down or otherwise punish the cleric in question. On the other hand, the DM houses are so vital to the setting, and again something that's unique about Eberron. A sourcebook that not only includes more dragonshard focus items, PrCs (except for Cannith, they don't need any more!!! ;) ), feats, and spells, but also puts into print the excellent material from the Phiarlan Dragonshards articles, and extends that treatement to all of the houses would be very helpful to all.
Rechan 02-02-06, 11:10 AM	I'll just add that I think, with regards to most Eberron books, fluff is more important than crunch. Every D&D book always has feats/spells/PrCs, but to be honest, I want flavor, inspiration, and information more than I want ways to be l33t.
alder_zeal 02-02-06, 11:15 AM	For Faiths of Eberron I would love to see the introduction of new cultss. of an idea that makes you say what if. I think that a more expanded Church of the Silverflame. There is a lot of corruption inside the church. I really think like the idea of a Human Ur-Priest taking power from the Soverign Host, to become the first human god. But that is home brewed. Now as for the subraces and new standard classes and how they fit from PGtE. As with anything if you dont like it dont use it. I Thought it was a good book. It was really beneficial for a player who has invested into The Complete, Races of and Enviromental series. It can be official canon, or you you can put catfolk on the talenta plains. Half-giants at northern Xen' Drik if you want. I am happy to say that i am glad Edy is not a WotC Employee. If he was id only buy 3rd party. On a side note i think the PgtE is missing something. not sure what. I think it has no really big climatic chapters in it. It should have introduced something completely new that really works for the player, such as new ways to spend action points, something..
Rechan 02-02-06, 11:27 AM	[QUOTE=alder_zeal]For Faiths of Eberron I would love to see the introduction of new cultss. of an idea that makes you say what if. /QUOTE] I think some kinda cult that isn't tied to Aberrations/Khyber/Rakshasa would be sweet. Perhaps something completely different. After all, given how Eberron's faith-based magic works, cults could be about anything, so something particularly flavorfull would be interesting.
Euangelion 02-02-06, 11:58 AM	I think some kinda cult that isn't tied to Aberrations/Khyber/Rakshasa would be sweet. Perhaps something completely different. After all, given how Eberron's faith-based magic works, cults could be about anything, so something particularly flavorfull would be interesting. You mean like a cult that worships a fallen angel? ;)
MrFilthyIke 02-02-06, 12:28 PM	but I certainly wouldn't assume that just because Keith's name is on the cover that he approves of everything inside. And has anyone asked Keith if he was asked/required to include sub-races, whether he doesn't see them or not?? Why wouldn't WotC ask him to cross-referrence other products? They are paying him to write the stuff after all? But that's all pure speculation for the sake of the derail thread. :)
Rechan 02-02-06, 12:57 PM	You mean like a cult that worships a fallen angel? ;) You referring to the Idols in Sharn? Yeah, I think that's particularly neat. :)
Adhevan 02-02-06, 06:52 PM	I'll just add that I think, with regards to most Eberron books, fluff is more important than crunch. Every D&D book always has feats/spells/PrCs, but to be honest, I want flavor, inspiration, and information more than I want ways to be l33t. Amen. Preach it, brother!
PoeticJustice 02-02-06, 09:06 PM	And has anyone asked Keith if he was asked/required to include sub-races, whether he doesn't see them or not?? Why wouldn't WotC ask him to cross-referrence other products? They are paying him to write the stuff after all? But that's all pure speculation for the sake of the derail thread. :) I can say with absolute, utmost, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-die certainty that Keith's input WAS NOT considered during the sibars' inclusion inclusion.
StillbornGodling 02-02-06, 09:38 PM	He has a printable index for it on his website. I don't suppose you could provide a link to said index, could you? :) Personally, I want them to leave the deities as abstract beings. If I see a single page of stats and Divine Ranks, I'm going to be quite upset. I never liked the fact that characters can rise to such power that they can literally fight the gods (which is almost always suicide anyway, but they make such an ego-trip out of it!). I want to see more on the Path of Light, the Blood of Vol, and... well... just basically giving each deity EQUAL COVERAGE. Also, typical worship ceremonial prayers would be interesting... I would LOVE if they would include a CD with some mantra-sounding prayers repeating softly behind some creepy music. :) (Yes, I use the CD that came with S:CoT alot...) No stats, more flavor... that's the core of Eberron anyway, isn't it?