| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| ChronosCrow09-11-06, 09:54 PM | Just got finished with my first run through of the book. Gotta say I really like it. I don't know any of the authors, but they did a nice job. A few highlights: 1. The book is very detailed in outlinig the ideaolgy of each major religon of Eberron. 2. There is a great picture by Wayne Reynolds in which, I believe, Vol herself makes an apperance. 3. Introduction of Construct Grafts, very nifty. 4. Extremely heavy on the fluff content. The back 10 pages are crunch while the rest of the entire book is all about outlining the religons of the world. Very awesome. |
| cancerousmango09-11-06, 11:31 PM | 2. There is a great picture by Wayne Reynolds in which, I believe, Vol herself makes an apperance. Yes, yes, sweet Ganesh (http://www.teamgt.com/gallery/albums/illustration/6aN3_5h.jpg), YES! |
| Mouseferatu09-11-06, 11:42 PM | I don't know any of the authors, but they did a nice job. Hi. Ari Marmell. Good to meet you. ;) I'm very glad you liked the book. As my first Eberron work*, I'm quite eager to learn if people feel I did the setting justice. *(My short story in the Tales of the Last War anthology appeared first, but it was written later.) |
| cancerousmango09-12-06, 12:05 AM | Getting mine in the mail in a few days, so I'll get back to you. Tell me what you wrote and I'll be honest, Ari, I review papers for money; I guarantee at least one grade up or your money back! |
| Nived09-12-06, 12:40 AM | Keep scanning the bookshelves but I haven't seen it yet. I am so looking forward to it. So which sections did you work on Mouseferatu? So that we may heap praise in the right direction. Or is such a question not cool? |
| Mouseferatu09-12-06, 12:54 AM | Keep scanning the bookshelves but I haven't seen it yet. I am so looking forward to it. So which sections did you work on Mouseferatu? So that we may heap praise in the right direction. Or is such a question not cool? lol No, it's cool to ask; I don't mind. (And besides, for everyone who wants to "heap praise," there's someone else who wants to "get a rope." ;)) I did the Sovereign Host chapter, the Silver Flame chapter, the section on Aerenal in the "other sects" chapter, and a chunk of the feats, items, and other mechanics. (With, as always, changes and contributions from the development team, of course.) |
| Flame_Drake09-12-06, 01:57 AM | Art Gallery (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20060911a&page=1) and Excerpts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060911a). They tried to hide them on us again. I'm going to try and pick it up from FLGS tomorrow afternoon, looks great so far though. Drake |
| ChronosCrow09-12-06, 02:00 AM | I did the Sovereign Host chapter, the Silver Flame chapter, the section on Aerenal in the "other sects" chapter, and a chunk of the feats, items, and other mechanics. (With, as always, changes and contributions from the development team, of course.) Well, you did a great job. Soverieign Host is the sections I've read the most of so far. I'm particularly interested in one of the offshoot religons, "The Three" or I've also heard of it as "The War Triad." So, how do you prepare to write up detailed sections of new information while staying in sync with the previos material? Seems complicated. |
| The White Sorcerer09-12-06, 05:05 AM | I'm particularly interested in one of the offshoot religons, "The Three" "Thr33! Thr33! Thr33!" The first to get the reference, gets the cookie. |
| Bluebrush09-12-06, 07:53 AM | Oooh. The Silver Flame got the inquisition domain. I hope they really emphasised the evil cardinals, Thranish inquisition and intolerance are the exception rather than the rule or the problem we've been having with the perception of church corruption will continue. |
| Bluebrush09-12-06, 08:17 AM | You know... Seeing this picture called The Accidental Priest (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/foe_gallery/99864.jpg) immediately makes me think: "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!" I just wanted to be the first to say it. |
| Kaizer_Ryu09-12-06, 11:34 AM | So far, I've only looked through the Sovereign Host section, but I have to say: The little quips here and there are my favorite part. I simply couldn't help but giggle at the comment: "Hubris in a Priesthood! Shocking, isn't it?" (Pg 24). If the entire book has the kind of detail I've seen so far, it will be extremely helpful. Great job, Mouseferatu (of course, I expect no less from the rest of the authors). :thumbsup: |
| Mouseferatu09-12-06, 11:44 AM | So, how do you prepare to write up detailed sections of new information while staying in sync with the previos material? Seems complicated. It can be, yes. There's an awful lot of information to keep track of. I started by rereading the section on religions in the core book, and I referenced it constantly. It's a pretty short section, but it formed the basis of what I did. I also got some material sent to me from WotC from books that (at that time) had been written but not published yet, and I tried to read all the relion-relevant parts of that, too. My best resource was Keith. I asked him a great many questions, and referenced a lot of his Dragonshard web articles. A lot of stuff, of course, had never been mentioned before, so I was free to make it up. And I'll be the first to admit, up front, that there might be a few cases where what I wrote contradicts something else. No matter how careful you are on a project like this, there are bound to be at least a few such instances. All that said, it was definitely the most research-intensive of the work I've done for WotC to date. Thankfully, I've done research-heavy work before (for White Wolf's Dark Ages line, for instance), so it's not something I had to learn to do from scratch. :) |
| OneWinged4ngel09-12-06, 11:49 AM | Well, I must say it's a great relief to me to hear the positive reviews... I would have gone berserk if Faiths of Eberron was a flop (and I must admit that without Keith's name on the cover I was skeptical). I've ordered the book from Amazon, and can't wait to get my hands on it! The faiths of Eberron have always been a very interesting part of the setting to me, and any new information (especially cultural tidbits, things about traditions, quotes of scripture, ranks, and ceremonies... or various other little bits of fluff) would be pretty awesome if done well. I'll be sure to post my review on it once I get my hands on it... (Hurry up, Amazon! Deliver faster!) |
| WarlockDa09-12-06, 06:29 PM | Well sadly I haven't gotten this book yet, got to have cash for a week in Disney World with the wife in Oct,...but having just scanned your site Mouseferatu,....and seeing you have the exact same birthdate as me...down to the year....that alone is reason enough for me to enjoy the book :) |
| mhacdebhandia09-12-06, 07:11 PM | Interesting to note that the thief of life prestige class (previewed along with the rest of the Blood of Vol chapter) has a minor point of synergy with the Magic of Incarnum rules in its "borrow vigour" and "steal immortality" class features. I'm indescribably excited to get this book. :) The faiths of Eberron are my favourite part of the setting. |
| Volaran09-12-06, 08:57 PM | Hi there, Ari. So far, I've only finished your sections on the Host, and the Silver Flame. I've been very pleased with your work on the Host, and their nature as the religion of the average person. In my new campaign, all the players with a few minutes checking over the book, have gone with Host-based religious beliefs that are quite well fleshed out. Clearly quite inspiring. The Silver Flame has had quite a bit written about it even before Faiths of Eberron, so there is somewhat more potention for problems and conflicts with previous material. I was pleased to note a general lack of those problems. Your vision of the Inquisition within the Church nearly matched exactly with that used in my previous campaign, which pleased me greatly. I also noted the large number of references to the dragonshards (eg. conservative elements of the church being strong withing Aundair), which made me smile. Some previous Eberron books have ignored those in terms of continuity (eg. Magic of Eberron and its alternate take on the origins and gender of Aeren) which has been a negative thing, in my opinion. That you even made mention to Melysse might have made the chapter for me all by itself, but it really was impressive overall. Given the amount of space the Silver Flame has been given in sources beyond the campaign setting (Five Nations, The Dragonshards, Player's Guide to Eberron), I did find it a bit odd that this is the first time I can recall them being referred to as "The Purified", but that is only a small thing. Given that in Eberron, many religions seem to have come to the conclusion that forced coversion is fruitless, I note that except for the few branches that honor multiple forces (Keepers of Blood, Sacred Spark, The Three), the sections on views of other religions can be summed up with "And this is why faith x is stupid". I was hoping for a bit more open acceptance in cosmopolitan Khorvaire. The political differences seem to run deep, but previously there had seemed to be general respect between say, followers of the Host, and those of the Flame. That didn't come through for me in this book. Still, overall excellent work! |
| aelryinth09-12-06, 09:06 PM | I noticed that they changed the means by which they collect the blood of the faithful from something that Keith inferred was specific to the religion to something that was far more generic...and is in use by the commercial public. :) I wonder if he was telling them about the arguments with that kook on the boards... ===Aelryinth |
| Hellcow09-12-06, 10:20 PM | I noticed that they changed the means by which they collect the blood of the faithful from something that Keith inferred was specific to the religion to something that was far more generic...and is in use by the commercial public. :) I wonder if he was telling them about the arguments with that kook on the boards... If you're talking about the barrel of preserving pine, that was actually something I made for Sharn: City of Towers, so not so much. ;) Note that the BoPP is actually only a tool for storing liquids as opposed to withdrawing them safely. Thus, many of the issues raised in that thread are actually still generally up in the air for those who wish to argue them; it could be an aspect of the bloodfang dagger used in the ritual, or something else. But the barrel is more generic because it IS more generic - in purpose as well as origin. |
| Hellcow09-12-06, 10:29 PM | ...the sections on views of other religions can be summed up with "And this is why faith x is stupid". I was hoping for a bit more open acceptance in cosmopolitan Khorvaire. The political differences seem to run deep, but previously there had seemed to be general respect between say, followers of the Host, and those of the Flame. That didn't come through for me in this book. I'd look at the "Views of other religions" section as one possible view... and after all, within the Church of the Silver Flame you have a wide spectrum of beliefs. For a countering viewpoint, in the very opening of the Silver Flame chapter - page 57 - the book states "They acknowledge the existence and divinity of other gods, such as the Sovereign Host and Dark Six, and of the three great dragons. They even honor them, knowing them worthy of respect." There clearly ARE those within the CotSF (and other religions) who are intolerant towards others - but I think that the statement that opens the chapter is a better indication of the dominant view. You may want to think of the "Views of other religions" bars as the equivalent of the alignment descriptions in the Player's Handbook, which state boldly why every alignment is the best alignment of all. These tell you why every other religion is inferior, and are arguments you might hear from an evangelist - but that doesn't mean that the entire congregation holds such views. Of course, I'm not one of the authors (though hey, I do get an additional design credit :) ), so perhaps Ari can speak to this. |
| InfinityStar809-12-06, 11:43 PM | Can I just be the first to say WOW to the PrC for the Sovereign Host!!! I don't want to say and ruin it for all right now. But that is one Khyber of a class perk. I want to know what others think of it. |
| ChronosCrow09-13-06, 01:42 AM | Can I just be the first to say WOW to the PrC for the Sovereign Host!!! I don't want to say and ruin it for all right now. But that is one Khyber of a class perk. I want to know what others think of it. Pretty darn nice as far as cleric PrC's go. |
| ChronosCrow09-13-06, 01:44 AM | I'd look at the ... Yeah, I'd have to agree with Keith here. The sections are so cut and dry to say "we're right, they're wrong." The Soverign Host is particularly understanding while religons like Blood of Vol and Aerenal Elves say they can see why the other religons exist, they just prefer to go about things in a different way b/c of their environment. |
| Volaran09-13-06, 02:08 AM | I'd look at the "Views of other religions" section as one possible view... and after all, within the Church of the Silver Flame you have a wide spectrum of beliefs. For a countering viewpoint, in the very opening of the Silver Flame chapter - page 57 - the book states "They acknowledge the existence and divinity of other gods, such as the Sovereign Host and Dark Six, and of the three great dragons. They even honor them, knowing them worthy of respect." Oh, and certainly I consider that valid, Keith. One of things I've consistently liked about Eberron is that across Khorvaire, so many variations of even common views are possible. However, that statement is followed in the next paragraph with "Even so, the Purified believe that although the Silver Flame was not the first god of Eberron, it will be the last." The holiday of Promisetide on page 64, which basically amounts to "The Host was pretty awesome, but they should gracefully bow out now" and ends with a statement that it is a pretty offensive occasion for non-Purified. So, while I think the view presented in FoE is equally valid to what I've gathered from the other books, and I really like your comparison to the PHB alignment descriptions, my initial impression still remains. However! I would like to here from Ari as well. :) |
| Salla09-13-06, 02:16 AM | If you're talking about the barrel of preserving pine, that was actually something I made for Sharn: City of Towers, so not so much. ;) Note that the BoPP So, NOW we know who put the BoPP in the BoPP-shu-BoPP-shu-BoPP! |
| Nived09-13-06, 02:32 AM | That pun hurt me... I think it killed a part of my soul. Anyway I keep looking for the FoE at my FLGS... but no luck so far. I haven't heard a bad thing about it yet... and with the critism that some darn good game books recieve around there that's saying something. |
| The White Sorcerer09-13-06, 04:06 AM | I'm having slight difficulties figuring out how the Qabaldrin Wheel works in practice. It's not like Crya can just magically appear between Vult and Zarantyr, so when do the Seekers celebrate Revelations Day? |
| maollelujah09-13-06, 08:20 AM | Just somethings off the top of my head. My first impression was there are way too many pet names, i.e. the Vassals, the Purified, the Tarnished, the Seekers, etc... The Seekers and Vassals really get on my nerves, and I really don't know why. Also, all the named Seminaries are a little over the top. The work done on the Dark Six and Blood of Vol makes them both useable as faiths. The only problem is that both are Evil, even for the normal worshippers that might not be Evil. I thought the Blood of Vol should've had another Domain that wasn't so Evil. This could allow you to take Law and another neutral feeling Domain (Community or Protection?) to create a cleric that was actually interested in searching for the Divine Within and helping the community, and not a just a self-centered cleric or Evil lackey of Vol. (I don't know, but maybe you can use Death, Evil and Necromancy to help out the flock as I don't know what exact spells are on those lists...) I am also unsure as how the undead are thought of as martyrs. Maybe they serve as wandering priests, instructing the faithful how to find the Divine Within. The Dark Six is kind of the same. It is pretty interesting, but seems only propaganda. If one believes the Keeper is interested in saving souls, Death, Decay and Evil aren't really Domains I would have in mind. I guess the DM could make it up, but this is why the books are written, so the DM doesn't have to. The Droaamish liturgical councils had me laugh, as did the Convention of Dark Six priests during the start of the Last War. Still it is a case where the fluff demands crunch to back it up. The Silver Flame section is not bad. The beginning as to why people find the Silver Flame so appealing, the only religion that tries to better the world, is nicely done. Had me wanting to join the Church. It does well to develop the religion overall, but it is too Thrane-centric. Like having Two of the 11 (or was it 9?) miracles of the Silver Flame deal with events from the Last War. This is something I don't see the faithful from Breland to believe in. It would've been nice to have some information about how the Churches outside of Thrane function and their relationship with Flamekeep. It also seemed a little 'Catholic', especially the artificial coloring of the flame when the Keeper died. |
| DragonWatcher09-13-06, 09:44 AM | I picked up the book last night, and had some obligations that needed attending, so I didn't have time to read a whole lot yet. That said, I quickly tore open the book to the section that I have been waiting for since I first read the ECS... the section on the Gatekeepers. I don't really know why... maybe it's the whole "orc" thing... but I've LOVED the Gatekeepers since I first heard about them. While I was a little disappointed at the brevity of the section, I was really impressed with the quality of the work. My only question is this: Were the Gatekeepers always intended to be a dying druidic order? By this, I mean that it says that there are less than 1,000 actual Gatekeeper druids around in 998YK. I never got the impression that they were diminishing that much. Now, don't get me wrong... this isn't really a complaint. I like the additional flavor that this gives them... and the section (I think) was brilliantly written. I was just a little suprised at that little detail. I'm looking forward to having time to read more of the book tonight. :) |
| OneWinged4ngel09-13-06, 10:39 AM | I am also unsure as how the undead are thought of as martyrs. Maybe they serve as wandering priests, instructing the faithful how to find the Divine Within. I think I can answer this question myself, without help from Faiths (it's been very well covered by Keith on these boards, as well as other books and sources. Really, the whole "Divine Within" thing has been covered before... it just was called "blood" instead of "The Divine Within" before.). The undead are martyrs because they have died for the cause, and undeath is not a true defeat of death. They endure as undead in order to instruct the faithful and continue the 'war' against death, having given up their own divine spark. As devoted faithful who have led their lives for the Blood and its noble cause of defeating death, and continue to fight the good fight against the mortal curse given by the Sovereigns though they have already fell by its hand, they are martyrs of a sort. Undeath is not a goal of the Blood of Vol, and is not its ideal form. Ideally, it aims for eternal *life*. Vampirism, for example, may represent the lack of your own divine life and blood, merely a husk animated by the power of the blood of others, barely keeping a tie to this world. Members of the Blood would contribute their own divine power (in the form of blood) to keep their team going. *Shrug* Hope that helps. |
| Kreistor109-13-06, 10:52 AM | Surprise! Kreistor has a complaint. So atypical of him. Dark Six section. It presents the idea that the view of the Dark Six in the ECS is propaganda from the Sovereign Host since the Schism. It then describes what the Keeper is like to its worshippers. It suggests the Six may not be evil, their worship is twisted into an evil perception by the PR dept of the Sov Host. Problem is, the section on the individual 6 gods is written from that Propaganda perspective, rather than the internal viewpoint the chapter presents earlier. So though the idea that they are the victims of propaganda is presented, the internal, non-evil presentation is not included for any except the Keeper. It isn't like I'm not capable of developing my own version of the real worship of the Dark Six. I think in this case it would have been better to present the Dark Six from the inside in this section rather than continue the propaganda. It does risk interfering in some campaigns where the Dark Six are a vital component, but I haven't seen too many campaigns described as using the D6 heavily on this forum, so it was probably a change that would affect the minimum possible people. |
| ekomega09-13-06, 11:47 AM | My only question is this: Were the Gatekeepers always intended to be a dying druidic order? By this, I mean that it says that there are less than 1,000 actual Gatekeeper druids around in 998YK. Even in the ECS it mentions this number. The idea has been around since the beginning of Eberron. It surprised me as well, but really is a testament to 1) How the other druid sects have thrived since the incursion from Xoriat is long over, and 2) The only people who care about what the Gatekeepers are doing are the Gatekeepers. Note that the Dragons didn't care about Xoriat originally, only Vvaraak, so really the Gatekeepers are on their own, and fading fast. |
| eehamburg09-13-06, 11:56 AM | So what does that say about the importance of their cause? |
| Mouseferatu09-13-06, 12:04 PM | Oh, and certainly I consider that valid, Keith. One of things I've consistently liked about Eberron is that across Khorvaire, so many variations of even common views are possible. However, that statement is followed in the next paragraph with "Even so, the Purified believe that although the Silver Flame was not the first god of Eberron, it will be the last." The holiday of Promisetide on page 64, which basically amounts to "The Host was pretty awesome, but they should gracefully bow out now" and ends with a statement that it is a pretty offensive occasion for non-Purified. So, while I think the view presented in FoE is equally valid to what I've gathered from the other books, and I really like your comparison to the PHB alignment descriptions, my initial impression still remains. However! I would like to here from Ari as well. :) Faith, even in a fictional setting, is a tricky subject. I actually gave some thought to not answering this, because I'm not really sure I can properly or accurately articulate my thoughts. I'll give it a go, though, and if I accidentally cause any offense through my use of real-world metaphor, know that it wasn't my intent, and I ask forgiveness in advance. Strong faith often, IME, leads to an "I'm right, you're wrong" viewpoint even among the most tolerant of people. It doesn't have to, but it frequently does. This does not negate the possibility of respect for one's forebears. I know a number of Christians who hold deep respect for Judaism as the faith that gave birth to their own religion--but that doesn't change the fact that their religious beliefs force them to consider the beliefs of Judaism to be, at best, incomplete. Or, to use a (slightly ;)) less religious example, I respect and enjoy all previous editions of D&D, but I still feel that, though flawed, the current system is by far the best. I know several people who still play older editions, but I wouldn't voluntarily do that myself. ;) So, let's look at the Flame and the Host. The Sovereign Host is, to an extent, an "open pantheon." They already believe, at least to a point, that other divinities are either a variant of gods that are already part of the Host, or can easily be subsumed into it. Therefore, worshippers of the Host must consider their view of the gods superior to the views of the Purified; otherwise, they would just incorporate the Silver Flame into their beliefs, and they clearly haven't done so. Similarly, the Purified can respect the Sovereign Host as the creators of the world and the forebears of the Silver Flame, but as they have chosen to worship the Flame over any and all of the gods of the Host, they clearly have to have some reason to view the Flame as the superior deity, rather than one among equals. If, as they believe, the Silver Flame represents the purity of good, then by definition, other gods cannot be as pure, however well-meaning they might be, and must eventually be left behind. Thus, those who cling to their belief in the Host--even if they are worthy of respect, and many are--are ultimately misguided. Respect does not mean agreement. Disagreement does not mean hatred. My intent with the "Views on Other Faiths" was not to reverse what has been said before, but simply to expand and modify it. It was also meant to be taken as the view of the "average Joe on the street," not as the attitudes of every member of the faith. Just for the record. :) Now, all that aside, there's also a "meta-reason" to go this direction. Conflict is more interesting and inspires more stories than complete cooperation. ;) |
| Mouseferatu09-13-06, 12:07 PM | My first impression was there are way too many pet names, i.e. the Vassals, the Purified, the Tarnished, the Seekers, etc... The Seekers and Vassals really get on my nerves, and I really don't know why. Also, all the named Seminaries are a little over the top. Every religion needs some term by which to refer to its worshippers. Those who practice Christianity are Christians (or Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Mormons, what have you). Followers of Judaism are Jews. Followers of Islam are Muslim. Follwers of Wicca are Wiccan. And so forth. In the case of Eberron, the faiths don't let themselves to that naming convention. I didn't like the idea of calling people "Hostians" or "Flamers," but they had to be called something. I tried to choose names that most appropriately fit the general themes and feel of the faith. As to the seminaries--have you ever heard the names of any of the Medieval orders and institutions in the real world? The ones in this book are positively low-key compared to some of their historica inspirations. ;) It also seemed a little 'Catholic', especially the artificial coloring of the flame when the Keeper died. Well, sure. The Silver Flame has, from the get-go, had a lot of parallels to the Medieval Catholic Church. I admit that I played them up a little more than previous books, but I certainly didn't introduce 'em. ;) What can I say? The Catholic Church of the Dark Ages/Medieval era always struck me as rife with game/story possibilities. |
| Fezwick09-13-06, 12:36 PM | Is there any information on the Keepers of the Past in this book? |
| Salla09-13-06, 02:18 PM | That pun hurt me... I think it killed a part of my soul. Anyway I keep looking for the FoE at my FLGS... but no luck so far. I haven't heard a bad thing about it yet... and with the critism that some darn good game books recieve around there that's saying something. How many XP is your soul worth? I might have levelled up. :D It's not at mine yet, either ... they usually put new stuff out on Tuesday, so since it wasn't there yesterday, I'm guessing next week. The only 'bad' thing I've heard about it is that a lot of people on the Optimization boards are drooling over the Sovereign Speaker and Planar Shepherd. Whether or not one considers this 'bad' is a matter of personal preference. I have a friend who has stated that he 'hates the way (Eberron's) religion works' ... I might lend him this and see what he thinks, though I think he just prefers the more 'classic' fantasy 'gods do exist' and 'clerics must have gods' deal. |
| Nived09-13-06, 03:34 PM | Well I wouldn't considermyself a particularly high CR, so probably only 300 xp. Sorry. |
| Werebat09-13-06, 05:58 PM | So what does that say about the importance of their cause? Nothing, really. It could be a "dead" cause, since Xoriat hasn't invaded or been able to invade for millenia. But if a DM wants to stage a campaign around Xoriat having recently found an alternate way to Eberron, or a weakening of the old barriers... - Ron ^*^ |
| The White Sorcerer09-13-06, 06:01 PM | I'm of the opinion that the daelkyr invasion wasn't the great threat the Gatekeepers are supposed to fight. It's still on the horizon, and the Gatekeepers had better gain more power before it comes. |
| Just another user09-13-06, 08:12 PM | So what does that say about the importance of their cause? Well, someone HAVE to watch after those seals if you want to keep the daelkirs into Khyber and not roaming the surface. |
| davethebrave37109-14-06, 10:00 AM | Picked it up between classes at college yesterday, and loved it to death. Every future Eberron book needs to be written with a University Prof's commentary on conflicting ideas about things as sidebars. |
| eehamburg09-14-06, 11:08 AM | Every future Eberron book needs to be written with a University Prof's commentary on conflicting ideas about things as sidebars. I'm not so sure about that ... I mean ... I have had University Profs who couldn't put together an idea or a sentence with both hands ... so I think that it has to be the right Prof, bc if it is some of the Profs that I have had in my past ... well... let's just say that you can come up with better comments drunk. :D |
| DragonWatcher09-14-06, 11:14 AM | I'm not so sure about that ... I mean ... I have had University Profs who couldn't put together an idea or a sentence with both hands ... so I think that it has to be the right Prof, bc if it is some of the Profs that I have had in my past ... well... let's just say that you can come up with better comments drunk. :D That's because earning a Ph.D. actually costs you a bit of your soul. ;) That said, I think that DtB is speaking of the comments from the "Professor at the Wynarn University in Aundair" that appear in the sidebars of this book. I have to admit that I like that bit too. :) |
| eehamburg09-14-06, 11:19 AM | That's because earning a Ph.D. actually costs you a bit of your soul. If earning a Ph.D. costs you your soul, what does earning several M.S.'s cost you? Especially, if you get them while working. I'm starting to worry. :mymy: :help: :blink: :gah: That said, I think that DtB is speaking of the comments from the "Professor at the Wynarn University in Aundair" that appear in the sidebars of this book. I know that ... I was just talking generically |
| DragonWatcher09-14-06, 11:23 AM | If earning a Ph.D. costs you your soul, what does earning several M.S.'s cost you? Especially, if you get them while working. I'm starting to worry. :mymy: :help: :blink: :gah: Lots and lots of sleep, you sick monkey! I know that ... I was just talking generically Gotcha... just making sure (and more importantly clarifying for those who might not have the book yet). :) |
| Kryptonian Scion09-14-06, 01:17 PM | That said, I think that DtB is speaking of the comments from the "Professor at the Wynarn University in Aundair" that appear in the sidebars of this book. I have to admit that I like that bit too. :) This is the one thing I do not like at all, so far. I love that this book is so much fluff and flavor, but I prefer that information and views in a sourcebook remain neutral in Voice. I do not like reading the words "in my opinion" or "my thoughts on this are" in a sourcebook sidebar. I want solid information to work from in a book like this. Overall a decent book that's going to see alot of use at my table, however. Well done. |
| The White Sorcerer09-14-06, 01:23 PM | I want solid information to work from in a book like this. A book about religion? One of the biggest subjects of debate on Eberron? |
| Kryptonian Scion09-14-06, 01:54 PM | A book about religion? One of the biggest subjects of debate on Eberron? Not exactly what I meant. For example, I really like that every chapter discusses minor and major rites, holidays, dogma, etc. I am also completely in favor of "religion is based completely in faith, not on proven existance of the Gods." So I guess what I'm saying is I want information from a neutral point of view, or even the inside-view of the religion that was mentioned earlier. My complaint isn't that there are no "this is the absolute truth about this religion" sections - it's that there are bits where an outside observer speculates on the material within an official source. Such practices should be left to DMs, players, and even characters. |
| DragonWatcher09-14-06, 02:02 PM | While I can see where you're coming from... I think that the outside point-of-view included is useful as an "everyman's" oppinion of the religion in question. I like it as a basis for popular stereotype in the setting, and while it's true that DM's and Player's alike can ignore it to run characters in any way they see fit, it is useful to me as a basis to build upon (or to have a standard to deviate from). |
| Arcane Guyver09-14-06, 05:43 PM | Got the book yesterday, and from what I've read so far...this is easily one of the best sourcebooks yet. Eberron doesn't need a ton of new mechanics so much as clarifications of what is already there. One of the coolest bits of the book is that it doesn't ignore what has come before. I started to come to the conclusion that Eberron books are pretty much "fire and forget," with PrC-based movements like the Reforged doomed to obscurity. Not so, apparently! I guess the main reason I like this book is that it feels "comprehensive." I know they'll probably add more cults and what-have you at some later date, but I feel that if this is the last word on religion in Eberron, I wouldn't mind. I wish more Eberron sourcebooks would be like this, where one specific subject is covered extremely well, rather than just a smattering of ideas (like Magic of Eberron or Explorer's Handbook). Excellent addition to the setting. |
| The White Sorcerer09-14-06, 06:34 PM | I am absolutely in love with the sovereign speaker. 11 domains and 4 domain spell slots? Count me in! I also really like the thief of life. My wife is going to play a Jorasco halfling in my campaign, and the prestige class gave me an idea for a perfect nemesis...:smirk: |
| Shady31409-14-06, 07:01 PM | I am absolutely in love with the sovereign speaker. 11 domains and 4 domain spell slots? Count me in! With the feats Domain Spontaneity and Extra Turning (each probably taken a few times).... oh yes. Looks like I'll finally stop seeing every cleric and paladin be CotSF. |
| Volaran09-14-06, 08:12 PM | Thanks for your extensive reply, Mouseferatu. Faith, even in a fictional setting, is a tricky subject. I actually gave some thought to not answering this, because I'm not really sure I can properly or accurately articulate my thoughts. I'll give it a go, though, and if I accidentally cause any offense through my use of real-world metaphor, know that it wasn't my intent, and I ask forgiveness in advance. No problem at all. Religion, as you say is a tricky subject. Strong faith often, IME, leads to an "I'm right, you're wrong" viewpoint even among the most tolerant of people. It doesn't have to, but it frequently does. This does not negate the possibility of respect for one's forebears. I know a number of Christians who hold deep respect for Judaism as the faith that gave birth to their own religion--but that doesn't change the fact that their religious beliefs force them to consider the beliefs of Judaism to be, at best, incomplete. Or, to use a (slightly ;)) less religious example, I respect and enjoy all previous editions of D&D, but I still feel that, though flawed, the current system is by far the best. I know several people who still play older editions, but I wouldn't voluntarily do that myself. ;) So, let's look at the Flame and the Host. The Sovereign Host is, to an extent, an "open pantheon." They already believe, at least to a point, that other divinities are either a variant of gods that are already part of the Host, or can easily be subsumed into it. Therefore, worshippers of the Host must consider their view of the gods superior to the views of the Purified; otherwise, they would just incorporate the Silver Flame into their beliefs, and they clearly haven't done so. I like the D&D metaphore in particular. I would note that there is some note about the Silver Flame being a misinterpretation of Dol Arrah and her light, but I haven't seen evidence as to why the Vassals have not tried to incorporate the Flame into their framework. I suppose one could argue that the Purified are much more zealous about their own coversions, and would particularly resistant. The views presented on the Host suggest that given Vassals' approach to other religions, there may be groups of them within Thrane that follow this more accepting approach, and would incorporate flamic rituals into their own. It would be an interesting change from how Vassals in Thrane have been portrayed before, and I'm tempted to use this somehow. Similarly, the Purified can respect the Sovereign Host as the creators of the world and the forebears of the Silver Flame, but as they have chosen to worship the Flame over any and all of the gods of the Host, they clearly have to have some reason to view the Flame as the superior deity, rather than one among equals. If, as they believe, the Silver Flame represents the purity of good, then by definition, other gods cannot be as pure, however well-meaning they might be, and must eventually be left behind. Thus, those who cling to their belief in the Host--even if they are worthy of respect, and many are--are ultimately misguided. One thing that I do note here is that the Silver Flame section seems to refer to the Flame as a 'god' quite often, whereas the preference in other material seems to have been 'deity'. It is an artificial distinction, but it seems to have always made it easier for myself and my players to visualize that it isn't so much a traditional god as an abstract force with a human voice. I still regret to say that I haven't made it to the section on Aerenal yet, so I am anxious to see how the Undying Court comes across. Respect does not mean agreement. Disagreement does not mean hatred. My intent with the "Views on Other Faiths" was not to reverse what has been said before, but simply to expand and modify it. It was also meant to be taken as the view of the "average Joe on the street," not as the attitudes of every member of the faith. Just for the record. :) Now, all that aside, there's also a "meta-reason" to go this direction. Conflict is more interesting and inspires more stories than complete cooperation. ;) Conflict I understand, and can appreciate. Nothing wrong with plot hooks. Thanks again for the response, Ari. Back to reading FoE I go. :) |
| Kid SixXx09-14-06, 08:39 PM | Got this book today & it will find immediate use. The construct grafts make me sad. Not because I don't like them, but because we've now got official rules for complete Full Metal Alchemist builds. ;) We had the warforged substitution angle for the kid whose soul was trapped in the suit of armor, and artificery subsituted somewhat for the "alchemy." Now we've covered the bionics angle with constuct graft rules. I am sooo putting Ed & Al's stats together over the weekend. I await the grumbling from representatives from other settings that like to complain about Eberron's pop culture inspirations. |
| The White Sorcerer09-15-06, 02:16 AM | The construct grafts make me sad. Not because I don't like them, but because we've now got official rules for complete Full Metal Alchemist builds. ;) Why is that a bad thing?:D |
| Nived09-15-06, 02:31 AM | I thought Renegade Master Maker was already the Full Metal class. |
| Kid SixXx09-15-06, 08:27 AM | Why is that a bad thing?:D Oh, it's not a bad thing at all. I love Eberron's abilty to translate any sort of outrageous hero concept into workable play. It's the meta issues of "Eberron is deliberately trying to copy anime" assumptions that will annoy me. The guy who owns my FLGS is a Greyhawk puritst & we debate Eberron's pop culture influences at least once a month. He's a good guy, but he's well entrenched in classic fantasy. Anything that deviates from that (especially console RPGish elements like airships) is "bad" in his view. He's a tad hypocritical because he enjoys the Warlord of Mars books by Burroughs which have ... surprise... airships in them. But he explains that away with a preference for sword and sorcery in his pen & paper games, and keeps literature a separate element. I thought Renegade Master Maker was already the Full Metal class. If you stop short of turning yourself into a Living Construct, then it works. With Construct Grafts you can get the bionic arm & leg thing done without worring about completly converting yourself into a living construct, or better still, gearing your build dowards the MasterMaker PrC. Construct grafts provide an alternative to driving towards a PrC you might not want to take. |
| Salla09-15-06, 11:01 AM | It's the meta issues of "Eberron is deliberately trying to copy anime" assumptions that will annoy me. I agree. If Eberron *was* trying to copy anime, I'd stop playing. Anime. :yuck: |
| Kid SixXx09-15-06, 11:57 AM | I agree. If Eberron *was* trying to copy anime, I'd stop playing. Anime. :yuck: Eh, older stuff ain't bad (Akira, Dagger of Kamui), but I hate about 99.9% of the new stuff that is not named Samurai Champloo (great for villain inspiration) or Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex (great for political thriller inspiration). Howl's Moving Castle is chock full of fun Artifcer ideas, as is Full Metal Alchemist. Most other stuff, I agree is :yuck: |
| Bluebrush09-15-06, 02:46 PM | Eh, older stuff ain't bad (Akira, Dagger of Kamui), but I hate about 99.9% of the new stuffSturgeon's Revelation applies. (http://www.tmcm.com/comics/webcomics/179_crap) |
| Nived09-15-06, 02:51 PM | Anime is a medium, not a genre. Saying all Anime is :yuck: is akin to saying all film is :yuck:. But yes I do agree with the core thesis that some of it is good and a lot of it is crap. Go to any book store, video store, or any medium of entertainment. Some of it is simply fantastic, some of it apeals to you, and most of it doesn't. This is all getting very far off the point.... I STILL CAN'T FIND FoE AT ANY OF MY FLGS! :weep: Besides a warforged graft does not make you The Full Metal Alchemist. Is can make you Ash from Army of Darkness, Ajax from Mortal Kombat, Theros Ironfield from Dragonlance, Luke freaking Skywalker from Star Wars. You know what all these characters had in common? Metal limbs. They're a staple of fantasy. They predate FMA. Or you know you could make an original character. |
| Kid SixXx09-15-06, 04:12 PM | Or you know you could make an original character. Eh, I support the fundamental right of folks to adhere to the heroic archaetype of their choice. ;) And you mean Jax from Mortak Kombat, right? Funny you should mention him, because I soooo had this idea for an Half-Orc Paladin / Monk / Argent Fist sporting a pair of construct graft arms. Now I feel less than creative. I am just copying Boon & Tobias. :( |
| Salla09-15-06, 07:43 PM | Saying all Anime is :yuck: is akin to saying all film is :yuck:. Not quite, given that all anime has something in common (the art style, which I can't bear to look at. Learn proportions, Japan). But, back on topic ... I don't have it yet, either ... I'm guessing it'll hit my local store this Tuesday. |
| DBlizzard09-16-06, 01:08 AM | Problem is, the section on the individual 6 gods is written from that Propaganda perspective, rather than the internal viewpoint the chapter presents earlier. So though the idea that they are the victims of propaganda is presented, the internal, non-evil presentation is not included for any except the Keeper. I haven't done more than skim the book yet, but might I suggest that you have been taken in by the real propaganda. They aren't misrepresented (not much, anyway), but the worshippers want some to believe they are. |
| stone_dog09-16-06, 05:06 AM | Not quite, given that all anime has something in common (the art style, which I can't bear to look at. Learn proportions, Japan). But, back on topic ... The only thing ALL anime has in common is that it is drawn. There are stacks of different styles ranging from fairly realistic to super cartoony to just plain surreal and many of them are no more guilty of bad proportions than any given American production. Hell, if you want to get technical, anime INCLUDES American productions since it is simply short for animation. Seriously, just because a bare handful of examples make it over to be shown widely on American television doesn't mean that such things are all there is. It is a very narrow view of a pretty broad medium. Still though. I am heartened by the discussion of the book. Mechanical arguments aside I am hearing alot about how much of the book was factchecked with previous official material and I am very happy to hear that. Between the Blood of Vol previews and Ari Marmell's words (always enjoyed reading your posts on ENworld, by the way) I am pretty confident in this one. |
| Nived09-16-06, 02:56 PM | Eh, I support the fundamental right of folks to adhere to the heroic archaetype of their choice. ;) And you mean Jax from Mortak Kombat, right? Funny you should mention him, because I soooo had this idea for an Half-Orc Paladin / Monk / Argent Fist sporting a pair of construct graft arms. Now I feel less than creative. I am just copying Boon & Tobias. :( Was it Jax? Been years since I played MK, I have failed my childhood knowledge check! NOOOOOOOOO! I have no problem with inspiration, or homages, or even just going for the iconic hero shot you saw somewhere... just so long as it isn't a clone. |
| Mr. Wilson09-19-06, 12:48 AM | I gotta kick out of the homage paid to our favorite bovine in the Silver Flame section. I.E. Baker's Night, a holiday no one from the church really knows how or why it came into existence. Classic, that. Also, I found the section on the Blood of Vol fascinating. If the vast majority of the faithful ever found out Vol's plan, I could see a schism occurring, with a more N style faith emerging based on the description in the book based on the whole divinity from within belief. |
| cancerousmango09-19-06, 01:03 AM | I'm an English major, so seeing shades of grey and actual schism-driven debate is wonderful compared to the cut and dry nature of the usual make-believe religions. I'm playing a gnome swordsage, and I've decided to make my character a missionary of sorts for the dark six, particularly the fury and the passion. I'll be one of those crazy people that goes around smashing bricks with my face and screaming, "PRAISE THE FURY!" "BEHOLD THE POWER OF THE PASSION." The cool thing about worshipping the dark six is that I don't need to be evil, just negative. I want to go to the places with the most misery on Khorvaire and convert people to The Fury. BTW, in this Queen music video, it looks like Freddy Mercury is wearing a Robe of Eyes. I wish I was cool enough to wear that. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFwOe0EPOJs) |
| Mouseferatu09-19-06, 01:15 AM | I gotta kick out of the homage paid to our favorite bovine in the Silver Flame section. I.E. Baker's Night, a holiday no one from the church really knows how or why it came into existence. Classic, that. :cool: I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that. So far, you're the first (or at least the first I've seen on any message boards I frequent). :) |
| cancerousmango09-19-06, 01:24 AM | :cool: I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that. So far, you're the first (or at least the first I've seen on any message boards I frequent). :)I haven't read the Silver Flame section yet...but I read that part and yes, you silly mouse, you slipped a hellcow reference in there. |
| Xaaon09-19-06, 01:37 AM | So, NOW we know who put the BoPP in the BoPP-shu-BoPP-shu-BoPP! *rolls d20* Wil save. NO A 1!!!! *falls over stone cold...dead* |
| Korhal_IV09-19-06, 01:43 AM | :cool: I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on that. So far, you're the first (or at least the first I've seen on any message boards I frequent). :) I also thought it was amusing. Vaguely Christmasy! :) A+ on the book! |
| Xaaon09-19-06, 01:51 AM | He's a good guy, but he's well entrenched in classic fantasy. Anything that deviates from that (especially console RPGish elements like airships) is "bad" in his view. Earthdawn had Airships at it's inception...one of the things I love about Eberron, it has many things that are Earthdawn-esque...Including Merrix...loved Earthdawn, Love Eberron. |
| The White Sorcerer09-19-06, 05:06 AM | the passion Wouldn't adding a new member make it the Dark Seven? |
| cancerousmango09-19-06, 10:45 AM | Wouldn't adding a new member make it the Dark Seven? My bad. I just think the Passion would be a good god, and I guess I split the fury into two parts. |
| Fanatic6609-19-06, 07:24 PM | Just got the book and must say, it is defiantly one of the better Eberron books. Overall, I liked all of the chapters but the chapters on the Soveriegn Host/Dark Six were really enlightening. I never really liked the two religions before, prefering the Silver Flame, but now they both seem more than just your generic good and bad gods. The different warforged religions were cool too. I hope more of the future Eberron books will be like this. |
| Goemoe09-20-06, 11:16 AM | IMC any priest able to cast spells has a power behind her, able to grant the spells/powers. I don't like the faiths-grant-powers concept. I do love Eberron, all of it, but the religious, divine part of it. For me in a world like Eberron, with archdevil like beeings all over (well under...) the place, gods and divine powers have to be real. And in my Eberron they are. Most clerics don't have powers anyway, so it does not change much. Now for my question: this said, is this book worth buying for a world where gods exist, the three dragons somehow still grant spells, divine intervention is rare but known. I might buy the book eventually to own them all, but currently I wonder if buying other books first would suit me more. What do you think, is it must have for an Eberron with gods known to exist? Thanks Goemoe |
| Euangelion09-20-06, 03:13 PM | Finally got it. So far it's very good. Of course, I'm going to find a couple of issues... 1. In the Undying Court section under the Valenar Ancestor Worship on page 143, it seemns to imply that the Valenar have been living on Khorvaire since the first settlement, rather than taking Valenar from Cyre during the Last War. 2. What's with Erlomel being a daelkyr half-blood and possessing the lesser Mark of Finding (pg. 132)? I thought daelkyr half-bloods were their own seperate, distinct race of aberrations, and thus standard dragonmarks should be off-limits. Aberrant dragonmark, I could buy even though by the RAW it should also be off-limits. But fortunately the concept is not dependant on the NPC possessing a dragonmark, so ignoring it works fine. 3. Why is Morgrave University consistently referred to as Margrave University? But above all, thank you authors for the information on the SH and D6! That fills in a vital piece of the Eberron world. Well done (even with the nitpicks!) |
| cancerousmango09-20-06, 03:21 PM | 3. Why is Morgrave University consistently referred to as Margrave University? yeah, what gives? why don't you let us nerds proofread this stuff? book rocks, btw |
| Euangelion09-20-06, 04:17 PM | yeah, what gives? why don't you let us nerds proofread this stuff? book rocks, btw Exactly! I have the perfect materials down in my lair inside my parents' basement!! ;) |
| davethebrave37109-20-06, 10:16 PM | An official pre-release Wizards of the Coast (NDA and secure) Wikiberron needs to happen. |