Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stone_dog 08-24-04, 04:06 AM	For those of you who do not know, I am talking about this. (http://breland-ledger.blogspot.com/2004/08/gencon-eberron-seminar-report.html) What happened on the Day of Mourning will remain a secret. Thank you. Thank you VERY much. Races of Eberron has a possible origin story for the Lord of Blades. Another product (yet to be named) will have another set of different stats for him and another possible creation story. No solid stats for him will ever be posted. Now THIS makes me solidly happy! Keep the big guy awash in rumor and mystery! Just another hint that Eberron is going to avoid the whole "canon universe" thing. The climate of Xendrik is equatorial, but DMs should make it whatever they want it to be. It has suffered magical cataclysms over thousands of years. Or some young, brash Giant arcanist tried something foolish back in the day. "You used Protomatter?" "It was the only way to solve... certain problems." It would just be so much fun to have bits of the continent suffering ala the Genisis Planet. The PCs are all geared up for hot, sweltering humid jungle and when they get to the temple they find it covered in snow and ice. Of course, that could just be a manifest zone to Risia, but why not let them all wonder?
stembolt 08-24-04, 04:40 AM	What happened on the Day of Mourning will remain a secret. Actually, if you think, that’s the worst possible answer. It in fact means that there is a real answer and they are keeping it secret. A better (if still foolish) answer would be “we will never answer that question so feel free to make it whatever you want.” An OK answer would have been “We realize that it was a mistake not to include it in the ECSB so we put the answer in a book coming out next month.” A good answer would have been “meteors did it” or some other statement describing the event. Now THIS makes me solidly happy! Keep the big guy awash in rumor and mystery! Just another hint that Eberron is going to avoid the whole "canon universe" thing. Eberron “will” in fact have an ongoing “cannon universe” storyline so… Anyway the seminar report seems pretty good (I missed that seminar myself) Johnny certainly seems to be talented at regurgitating information he hears/reads competently. I saw talked to two of the designers/programers for the Eberron Online MMORPG and that game looks to be really cool. Cool enough that my friends who were discussing getting into Everquest II together, unanimously decided to hold out for DnD online. The most promising thing is that the two guys who were at gencon looked to be really into DnD and gaming. According to these guys the Eberron story will be coordinated by a team overseeing the novels and the various computer games. They said that there is feedback both ways about the setting. For example if and when stormreach is mapped for the pen and paper game it will be the same map the programmers used. Also one of the programmers made a cool monster that will used in pen and paper Eberron as well.
stone_dog 08-24-04, 07:16 AM	Originally posted by stembolt Actually, if you think, that’s the worst possible answer. Actually, I have thought about it. Quite a bit. I don't want them to either tell us what they had in mind for the Mourning or tell us that it is ours to do with as we will. I will be quite happy with the perpetual illusion that there is a big secret thing that is just about to be revealed but never really is and not anything solid like "Tigers. Lots of them." Personally, that is the best thing I could have heard about the Mourning. I couldn't be happier if Keith Baker wiggled his fingers mysteriously and went "Its a seeeeecreeeet!" in a spooky voice. Actually, that is probably just what he would do too. A man who will wear a stuffed cow on his head in public is likely to do anything. Originally posted by stembolt Eberron “will” in fact have an ongoing “cannon universe” storyline so…Except for the uncertainty of things like the foundation of the mournlands, the origin and abilities of the Lord of Blades and the contents of Xen'Drik. Okay sure, there is going to be a certain amount of progression of events in the game world. After a while there will probably be a sourcebook about the next war or another mega house rumble or something, but what I am talking about is major changes set in stone. Heck, if different sourcebooks won't be able to agree on the statistics and origins of one of the most iconic NPC's of the setting I don't see any reason for them to agree on anything else! I have the feeling from just about everything I have read and seen from Eberron that it is going to be more of a rough framework of a universe rather than a strict canon. Not so much like Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms where the books control the fate of the much of the world. taking the Realms as an example. Tilverton is gone. Poof. Vanished. Nothing but a shadowy crater. Now that doesn't bother me very much since I never was really into the realms, but it made me think that if I had a longstanding campaign in Cormyr and the creators took a chunk out of it to make it more interesting I'd be pretty upset. Sure, you could always say "Well I'll just ignore that part," but it will be there in my head... rolling about. Shades coming back? That is much better. It is nice and vague and maybe they will just sit up there for a couple centuries being pestered by other adventurers as they gather the lost relics of Netheril. Moving the topic back to Eberron (with a little side trek) as I ramble aimlessly through my insomnia. White Wolf games were getting pretty tiresome to me for a while. Then they published their end of the world senarios. Now that they did this isn't what got me to pay attention to them again, but HOW they did it was excelent to me. It was as if they gave you a bucket of partially built legos to play about with. they new that it was better to give gamers tools to make a world shattering event their own than to tell them how the event took place. I only have the werewolf Apocolypse, but it is a damn usefull book because it is just throws a bunch of ideas at me screaming "catch the shiney ones!" and they are all so very shiney. I want this from Eberron. Published adventure series? Great. Maybe make them a bit more open ended, but so long as they are self contained little stories I don't care how specific they are! Hell, publish an adventure that would open the energies of the mournlands and flood the world in death and stagnation for all of time if the PCs fail, but if they succeed don't mandate that the Mournlands are healed because that would change a fundamental aspect of the world. However eventually they are going to publish something drastic. A war. The return of the Daelkyr. Dragons trying to take over again or Giants reclaiming their heritage and striding from Xen'Drik to conquer Khorvaire. Something. What I am hearing is that a sourcebook that goes along these lines is going to be more like a toolbox than a metaplot. Something more like the Githyanki Incursion in Dragon a while back. Not "When the Daelkyr invade Sharn in force, X happens," but "when the tides of insanity reach a major urban area, x, y and/or z are likely to happen, but pcs can avoid the whole mess by such tactics as a, b, or c." And then, a year or so later publish the next world shattering event AS IF THE FIRST ONE NEVER HAPPENED! Yes! Never overthrow the Dragon Kings of Athas in the Canon, but publish a big ol "Revolution" book for people who want it and don't spoil the party for the rest of us. Even though I never played Dark Sun myself... It is like Godzilla. Stop snickering. I am serious. I learned a while ago from a friend that a good many godzilla movies are direct sequels to the first one. So you have one story, one wierd fun thing for people to amuse themselves with for a while and then you drop it and move on to another idea. Eventually you have a rich gumbo of campy goodness and each new spoonful has a new piece of something tasty. If you like Godzilla. My but I do go on. My point is I want Eberron to be rich, detailed and full of possibilities. the last bit is the most important. Possibilities. Not WotC's vision of how the world turns, but my vision realized with a bit of help from people who are a damn sight more creative than I am. After all, on the inside cover of my copy of they ECS it says in a charming silver scrawl "Stone Dog! The fate of the Eberron Campaign Setting is in your hands!" Please please let that always be so. For all of us. In the words of the Lost Skeleton of Cadavera, "ISLEEPNOW!"
JohnnyONeal 08-24-04, 08:28 AM	Johnny certainly seems to be talented at regurgitating information he hears/reads competently.Thanks for the glowing compliment, Stemmy, but the credit for the GenCon report goes to Brueklen d'Cannith, aka BrooklynKnight, aka ArthurQ. All I did was proofread and post his notes. As for the mix of canon and mystery, I'm very pleased with it so far. I'm the type that loves having some continuity to play with, but hates to do anything that runs contrary to it. Their various promises are indeed promising, but we won't really know how they live up to their stated ends until a couple of years down the line.
Hellcow 08-24-04, 01:15 PM	Originally posted by stembolt Actually, if you think, that’s the worst possible answer. It in fact means that there is a real answer and they are keeping it secret. A better (if still foolish) answer would be “we will never answer that question so feel free to make it whatever you want.” Bear in mind, Stembolt, that you are seeing Brueklen's frantic summary of a 2-hour panel. In fact, the answer given was closer to "we will never answer that question so make it what you want." The purpose of both the Mournland and of Xen'drik is to give the DM some freedom to shape the world -- to leave a little mystery so you can have your own playground to explore. Do *I* have an idea as to what may have caused it? Sure. But my idea is completely different from Bill's or James'. Further, if someone else came up with something completely different, I might say "Wow! That's a great idea! I'm going to use that instead!" As a design team, we never sat down and agreed on the cause of the Mourning, and I doubt we ever will. There's no need, because we never intend to reveal it in an official product; thus each of us can use our own idea in our own campaign, as we expect you to do in yours. Some mysteries may be revealed -- for example, I fully expect us to going into more detail about the nature of aberrant marks and the history of the War of the Mark. But some things we intend to leave for the DM, and the Mourning is one of these (and this was, in fact, what Bill said). He also noted that while it's possible that a story will evolve as a result of the novels, the goal is to ensure that the material in the core books is not invalidated by this: he cited the Dark Sun novels as an example where the novel immediately changed the world. A number of people, including Peter Archer, observed that a good story doesn't have to reshape the world. An OK answer would have been “We realize that it was a mistake not to include it in the ECSB so we put the answer in a book coming out next month.” I don't feel that it was a mistake. Along with D&D, one of my favorite RPGs is Over the Edge, which makes a practice of offering the DM multiple choices for answers to the world's mysteries. Among other things, this means that even if a DM is also a player in another DM's campaign, he doesn't know the answer to the mystery -- because he doesn't know what THAT DM has decided. The Prisoner of Dreadhold is another example. If the DM wants to upset the balance of power in Karrnath, he could decide that the prisoner is the rightful heir to the Karrnathi throne and run a whole campaign centered on releasing him and unseating Kaius III. Or he could decide that the prisoner is one of the worst agents of the Order of the Emerald Claw -- some sort of undead creature so terrible that it cannot be killed, only imprisoned. Because we don't say... and won't say... if the party is hired bya shady character to rescue the prisoner, they don't immediately know "Oh, we're rescuing the true heir to the Karrnathi throne." A good answer would have been “meteors did it” or some other statement describing the event. Personally, I think this would have been the worst possible answer, but hey, all that means is that we're on opposite sides of the spectrum of mystery. Where do others stand? Our goal was to leave some regions of mystery so you could put your own touches on the world. Is this something you enjoy, or would you rather that every mystery was answered?
sh0 08-24-04, 01:33 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow Where do others stand? Our goal was to leave some regions of mystery so you could put your own touches on the world. Is this something you enjoy, or would you rather that every mystery was answered? I think it was a brilliant move. I love the fact that there is no official detail on what the core of Xen'drik looks like or what truly happened to Cyre. It allows me, to a certain extent, to make Eberron my world. I can have the majority of the players in my group read the entire ECSB, but when they head to Xen'drik, they have no idea what they are getting into. I also think it was a radical depature from the Forgotten Realms material that details everything. It is possible to leave certain source material out of your world, but you soon see the history of your world does not match what is considered canon by the publisher. I read an interview with Ed Greenwood the other day where he mentioned that in his own campaign, the Time of Troubles has not occured. This is a good example of new material coming out for the Realms that he just has to ignore.
Takasi 08-24-04, 01:40 PM	Something more like the Githyanki Incursion in Dragon a while back. Not "When the Daelkyr invade Sharn in force, X happens," but "when the tides of insanity reach a major urban area, x, y and/or z are likely to happen, but pcs can avoid the whole mess by such tactics as a, b, or c." And then, a year or so later publish the next world shattering event AS IF THE FIRST ONE NEVER HAPPENED! Stone Dog, I completely agree. Hellcow, this is the direction I would like to see from new materials.
MarkB 08-24-04, 01:43 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow Where do others stand? Our goal was to leave some regions of mystery so you could put your own touches on the world. Is this something you enjoy, or would you rather that every mystery was answered? I love the areas of mystery. I have my own 'current' theory on what happened to the Mournland (simultaneous intertwined Manifest Zone to Dolurrh and Mabar, caused by haywire Eldritch Device), and I may well incorporate that explanation into a future game. But then, if I started another game with different characters, I'd quite happily use a different explanation. Likewise, I'm currently building an expedition to Xen'drik, which happens to require a specific set of terrains across the continent - but next time I visit there, I may want it to look quite different, and won't hesitate to write it so. The fact that Eberron provides such a rich setting to incorporate into a campaign, but then leaves all the fine brush-strokes to be filled in however I wish, is one of the most attractive aspects of the setting - it's like I've had all the hard parts of building a campaign done for me, and I still get to do all the fun parts. Lovely!
Pocket Ace Pretender 08-30-04, 09:37 PM	I don't feel that it was a mistake. Along with D&D, one of my favorite RPGs is Over the Edge, which makes a practice of offering the DM multiple choices for answers to the world's mysteries. *snip* Where do others stand? Our goal was to leave some regions of mystery so you could put your own touches on the world. Is this something you enjoy, or would you rather that every mystery was answered? I love the mysteries, they certainly add an exciting element to the world. However, as in Over the Edge, it would be cool to see some possible explanations. I wouldn't want you to provide a definitive answer, but to provide some possible answers, just to see what you designers come up with. Much like in the Life in the World section, where each country has some adventure ideas at the back. If another section under the Mournland listed some possible causes (for less creative DMs like me) that would be awesome. The same goes for any of the other big mysteries in the world.
GMSteve 08-30-04, 10:24 PM	Just want to remind everyone that in the original FR book they specifically said that they were going to not develop Sembia - that it was the DM's own place - and they disregarded it. So I really do hope we can keep some mystery. I used to be really into the metaplot game systems like 7th sea and others, but now - just can't handle it. That was one of the great things about greyhawk - there is so much history,past, conflicting products - that in the end their is no "canon" greyhawk anymore. But still has a feeling to it that everbody recognizes. I like eberron - really I do, trying to get my group to latch on to it. But I will need to see how the other books develop to determine whether I will just stick to the EBCS or if I pick them up. Heavy metaplot and changing the world will just turn-me off on picking them up. One of the things I love about Eberron is how the gods don't interfer. I know that there are allusions to the "next war" but I would hope that would be upto individual GMs. I would suggest as others have - that a supplement to that would be a toolkit approach - similar to some of the other D20 products out that talk about Events happening and the impact of the game, such as when a god dies. There are feats, classes, ramifications explored, etc. I think there is a good potential for a "backdrop" event book that would explore a what if of the nations going to war, an invasion of dragons, an invansion of the inspired, the return of the plane of madness, the great houses going at each other, etc. Maybe a chapter dealing with each with some of the impacts, new classes, equipment, some major NPC's etc, adventure ideas, so that a GM doesn't have to do all the work, but it is clear that it is not "cannon". I think that book would sell great. But maybe I am wrong. Perhaps that is a good canidate for a series of long Dungeon Articles, dealing with each one. Or a regular column either on the web or in Dragon. World changing events, or something similar.... GM Steve