Feats, skills, and character creation... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feats, skills, and character creation... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tallric_kruush
05-27-07, 02:02 PM I'm simplifying this thread in hopes it will be more easy on the eyes. I know many of you won't read a post longer than a few sentences. ;)

The new SWRpg Saga Edition features a streamlining of the Skills and Feats lists we're used to, among other things. Many of the new ideas built into SWSE are things that would match-up very well with the swashbuckling feel and pace of Eberron.

Anyone familiar with the new rules? Have any thoughts? I know I was pleasantly surprised to see that many of them are very similar to long-standing houserules of my own creation.

If you want to check out any of these new rules yourself, just go here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars

and check the Archives for the Saga Edition preview articles.
tallric_kruush
05-28-07, 01:26 PM I think this "attempted thread" suffers from one (or more) of several problems:

1) My posts are too long.
2) No one knows what the heck I'm talking about.
3) No one cares what the heck I'm talking about.
4) No one thinks the skills and/or feats we use could use fine-tuning.
5) I completely blew-it when I titled this thread. (No doubt about this one!)

This is my one any only shameless self-:bump:
If I drop to page 2 again, then the community has spoken...or not spoken, as it were.;)
Runepriest
05-28-07, 03:48 PM Sometime i might condense the skills myself, but that really screws with the skill system as it is.
tallric_kruush
05-28-07, 09:25 PM Sometime i might condense the skills myself, but that really screws with the skill system as it is.

It definitely changes the system, but I've found only good effects in my games.

Condensing Listen, Search, Sense Awareness, and Spot into a single Perception skill (or Awareness, as I'd named it years ago), is one example. You get a lot of "bang for your buck", no doubt. It lets those classes that tend to be virtually useless outside of combat (roleplaying aside), such as Fighter, squeeze a little more use out of their few ranks.

Some might feel that it could step on the toes of Rogues and other skill-specialists, but we haven't had that issue arise. If anything, now guys can participate in scenes that before would have featured their character standing in a corner doing nothing, while the Rogue applied his skills to the task solo. It seems to cut-back on a lot of downtime for those PCs who used to have very paltry skills. That's definitely a good thing!

As a DM, seeing my PCs' willingness to try more daring tasks (generally aided by their increased efficacy with skills) seems to capture the feel of Eberron just a little more.
hecknoshow
06-06-07, 06:42 AM I've combined spot and listen (alertness) but left search out on its own. I admit adding it in does make a certain amount of sense but its just a litlle to much 'bang' for to little 'buck'. Also combined balance and tumble (athletics) as a skill but a tumble still can't be attempted without ranks in the skill.

I've pretty much left feats alone except for creating a few fighter feats with level prerequisits (my attempt at helping a fighter out at later levels where their power kinda tapers out).
Subtle Knife
06-06-07, 09:42 AM In our campaign, we have condensed a few skills: Spot and Listen fused to become "Observation", Hide and Move Silently became "Sneak", and Open Locks was incorporated into Disable Device. One still makes independent Spot and Listen checks and can have modifiers that influence one or the other, but it allows for a more logical and efficient use of skill points.

But don't listen to me, I also use Flaws and Traits, Taint rules, and Weapon Group Proficiencies. Our Player House Rules document is more than a hundred pages long.
SK
Soloran
06-07-07, 05:19 PM I've toyed with this idea myself. My current group consists of mostly newbies so I'm thinking that fusing skills like spot and listen into one 'awareness' skill might make things a little simpler. To those who have tried this: how has it gone with your players? How has it affected game balance?
tallric_kruush
06-07-07, 05:35 PM I've toyed with this idea myself. My current group consists of mostly newbies so I'm thinking that fusing skills like spot and listen into one 'awareness' skill might make things a little simpler. To those who have tried this: how has it gone with your players? How has it affected game balance?

It hasn't "unbalanced" our games at all. It has actually helped, I'd say.

In encounters where certain skill sets are a must, you often end up with one character taking all the relevant actions. Sometimes this is okay. It let's each character have their turn in the spotlight. Yet, in other situations, it can be a drag to have three or more guys just standing around. It's even worse if the actual players act like they have ADD anytime their character's not actively involved.

Rolling some of the skills into one (such as eliminating Open Lock and rolling that skill set into Disable Device) just make sense. A single Awareness skill allows a Fighter to cross-class a few ranks and actually get something out of it, for instance.

The biggest impact in our games has been in the social interactions. By combining a few of the social skills and trimming the overall skill list back a bit, I've found players are eager to spend more of their available skill points in these social skills. I like anything that makes the world feel more alive; and nothing does that more than drawing the whole party into a social interaction with an NPC(s).

These social skills themselves are some of those I've combined and rearranged; and I'm eager to see how SWSE has it's social skills arranged. Most of the new skill names seem to match-up with what I've been using as houserules for a couple of years now.

Having reread my own post, now, I see I pretty much repeated the same things I'd already mentioned in my previous post, above.
Syltorian
06-07-07, 05:43 PM I've missed your lengthy post, it seems... but I could not find anything under the links about streamlining feats (I found the part about Skills, and would be interested in the condition thresholds, thoug). Could you please point me to that?
tallric_kruush
06-07-07, 05:52 PM I've missed your lengthy post, it seems... but I could not find anything under the links about streamlining feats (I found the part about Skills, and would be interested in the condition thresholds, thoug). Could you please point me to that?

I think half this thread is my lengthy posts...:P

There's only one specific mention of the streamlined or simplified feat system (the Running Attack feat), though it seems to be a major part of the new system that's been developed. Here's the link:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview5

There are probably several threads about it, by now, over on the SWRpg boards. You'd have to sift through a lot of SWRPG fluff-type stuff, though. That board's different forums aren't as clearly defined/segregated by topic as the DnD/Eberron forums are.
Syltorian
06-07-07, 07:04 PM Thanks for the link. I'll do some more research later regarding the feats.

I'm still intruigued by the Damage Threshold rule, but it seems to be based on Fortitude Defense, which appears to be a bit different from DnD's Fortitude Save. From what I little can gather. I'd like a way of getting it into my game, however, as I chafe at the "either 100% healthy or dead" rule that mere hitpoints sometimes end up being.

Regarding skills, I see the point in rolling them into wider skills. However, I personally prefer them to be seperate: I like to micromanage my characters. For instance, if there is one skill for social interaction, but I want a character who is good at relating to people (i.e. good Gather Info, good Diplomacy) but utterly naive (poor Sense Motive) how do I go about that? Or a character who has eagle-eyes but is slightly on the deaf side?
tallric_kruush
06-09-07, 10:46 AM I'm still intruigued by the Damage Threshold rule, but it seems to be based on Fortitude Defense, which appears to be a bit different from DnD's Fortitude Save. From what I little can gather. I'd like a way of getting it into my game, however, as I chafe at the "either 100% healthy or dead" rule that mere hitpoints sometimes end up being.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to digging into this mechanic myself once my copy of the SW SECR arrives via mail.

Regarding skills, I see the point in rolling them into wider skills. However, I personally prefer them to be seperate: I like to micromanage my characters. For instance, if there is one skill for social interaction, but I want a character who is good at relating to people (i.e. good Gather Info, good Diplomacy) but utterly naive (poor Sense Motive) how do I go about that?

That's a good point. This could be something that a Trait or Flaw could simulate. Perhaps a Trait that gives a small bonus (+1 or +2) to Cha-based social skills, but gives a -4 to Sense Motive and other like perception-based skills.

Or a character who has eagle-eyes but is slightly on the deaf side?

This was the first thing I thought of before rolling Listen and Spot together. Again a Flaw can do the job. It can impose either a flat Awareness skill penalty, or it can impose a circumstantial penalty (which is the way we decided to go). EDIT: I know you described a hearing-impaired character, but for some reason I went with the opposite in my example. Oh well, same principle.

Realistically, blindness is a handicap. You can overcome it to a degree, and perhaps to even a greater degree in DnD-- think Montolio DeBrouchee. Yet, sometimes not being able to see simply can't be overcome. With that in mind, we circumstantially impose a -4 penalty (sometimes more) on the Awareness check. If there is simply no way hearing and general awareness of one's surroundings could make up for the lack of sight, you don't get to make the check at all.

To this point, no one has played a visually- or aurally-impaired character. I've toyed with the idea myself, but another concept has always won out.
Syltorian
06-09-07, 11:26 AM That's a good point. This could be something that a Trait or Flaw could simulate. Perhaps a Trait that gives a small bonus (+1 or +2) to Cha-based social skills, but gives a -4 to Sense Motive and other like perception-based skills.

It would still depend on how high-level the character is. If you are only, say, third level with a maximum of 7 ranks in each skill, that would make a greater difference than if you are 13th level and have a maximum rank of 17... you'd still end up with an effective 13+(mod) in the Sense Motive subskill.

Perhaps making the traits or flaws scaling to the level? But that would be difficult to balance properly, and would require a lot of playtesting.

Naturally, I admit my reasoning has the flaw that even the skills there are currently could be broken up into smaller sub-units (as they did with Perform, when they changed to 3.5). One might, for example, be good at appraising jewelry, but how does that help to assess whether a painting is original? The little craft synergy does not make much of a difference.

EDIT: I know you described a hearing-impaired character, but for some reason I went with the opposite in my example. Oh well, same principle.

No worries. It was all about the principle anyway.

Anyway, regarding the Awareness skill: blindness (and deafness) are great handicaps, and I agree that they do affect general awareness. But sometimes, you only need one sense.

Take the classical scene where the PCs are in a dungeon when they hear the far-off rushing of water. It doesn't matter whether they are blind from birth, in complete darkness, or in a well-lit room with several corners between them and the water. "Blindness" does not need to be a character flaw; it can be induced in other ways; the most simple obviously being switching the lights off.

I assume you simply apply more or less stringent circumstance penalties as the situation requires? But then you are making the difference between the skills anyway, though you do end up with people having more skillpoints available to spend on other things (and I agree that there is a problem... one of the reasons why I did allow all skills as in-class; the other reason being that I believe it makes for more realistic characters).

Back to the topic, though; I wonder whether it would be possible to give people the opportunity to substract ranks from one or more of the sub-skills and add them to the others in the same category, up to a certain limit of course, to keep people from min-maxing too much.

E.g. someone who spends 5 ranks in Awareness, but does not want to be good at listening could take away 4 ranks from Listen and up Spot and Search by 2 each; he couldn't add 3 to one because that would go past the limit. [Note: numbers are arbitrary, and would again require testing].
tallric_kruush
06-09-07, 12:10 PM It would still depend on how high-level the character is. If you are only, say, third level with a maximum of 7 ranks in each skill, that would make a greater difference than if you are 13th level and have a maximum rank of 17... you'd still end up with an effective 13+(mod) in the Sense Motive subskill.

True. I hadn't really thought that through, I guess. An actual Flaw, rather than a Trait, might be in order. Perhaps a new type of Flaw has been born--one the strips the character of a "subskill"? He may still take cross-class ranks in it as he wishes, making it an independant, cross-class skill. This could be an interesting option.

Naturally, I admit my reasoning has the flaw that even the skills there are currently could be broken up into smaller sub-units (as they did with Perform, when they changed to 3.5). One might, for example, be good at appraising jewelry, but how does that help to assess whether a painting is original? The little craft synergy does not make much of a difference.

Appraise was always a weird one to me, for this very reason.

Anyway, regarding the Awareness skill: blindness (and deafness) are great handicaps, and I agree that they do affect general awareness. But sometimes, you only need one sense... I assume you simply apply more or less stringent circumstance penalties as the situation requires?

Yeah, we apply varying penalties according to the circumstances; and if you're blind, for instance, and find yourself in a situation where hearing can't make up for your lack of sight (detecting enemies amidst a silence spell, for example), then you simply can't roll a skill check. You basically get an auto-fail.

But then you are making the difference between the skills anyway, though you do end up with people having more skillpoints available to spend on other things (and I agree that there is a problem... one of the reasons why I did allow all skills as in-class; the other reason being that I believe it makes for more realistic characters).

It's true that you can't help but differentiate between some of these skills, from time to time. I'd rather adjudicate from time to time, though, and have my players' characters with more ranks than to play the skills per RAW. I've found that having a more "skillful" party has encouraged better roleplaying. It's been well worth the efforts in tweaking the existing skills.

Back to the topic, though; I wonder whether it would be possible to give people the opportunity to substract ranks from one or more of the sub-skills and add them to the others in the same category, up to a certain limit of course, to keep people from min-maxing too much.

E.g. someone who spends 5 ranks in Awareness, but does not want to be good at listening could take away 4 ranks from Listen and up Spot and Search by 2 each; he couldn't add 3 to one because that would go past the limit. [Note: numbers are arbitrary, and would again require testing].

While it's not the same thing as what you're suggesting, I couldn't help but be reminded of the LotR Rpg Coda System's skills ruleset.

For each skill you had in that game, you got to select a subskill that you were especially skilled in using. Observation (spot) +6, for instance, meant your base Observation modifier was +6, unless a given check specifically pertained to spotting something with your eyes. In that case, you got a +2 bonus, raising your total base modifier for the check to a +8.

Perhaps the exchange of a modest "Skill-specialty bonus" for a "specialty penalty" could be accomplished through a Trait. (Again with the traits!! D20 is all about codifying and quantifying, after all.) I'm not sure this would accomplish much more than my original Trait/Flaw idea would, though, as it still doesn't scale.

Ultimately, each method (RAW and Houseruling) is going to have pros and cons. It just comes down to which better fits your preferences.
lonewolf
06-10-07, 03:47 AM Our group has done something different: We removed the Spellcraft skill. All aspects of it were put in the different Knowledge skills:
You wanna know what the cleric over there is casting? give me a knowledge(religion) check.
You wanna identify the magical abilities of this Warlock over there? Give me a knowledge(arcana) check.

We also combined Knowledge(local) an Gather Information(You use different ability modifieres for different uses)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tallric_kruush 05-27-07, 02:02 PM	I'm simplifying this thread in hopes it will be more easy on the eyes. I know many of you won't read a post longer than a few sentences. ;) The new SWRpg Saga Edition features a streamlining of the Skills and Feats lists we're used to, among other things. Many of the new ideas built into SWSE are things that would match-up very well with the swashbuckling feel and pace of Eberron. Anyone familiar with the new rules? Have any thoughts? I know I was pleasantly surprised to see that many of them are very similar to long-standing houserules of my own creation. If you want to check out any of these new rules yourself, just go here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars and check the Archives for the Saga Edition preview articles.
tallric_kruush 05-28-07, 01:26 PM	I think this "attempted thread" suffers from one (or more) of several problems: 1) My posts are too long. 2) No one knows what the heck I'm talking about. 3) No one cares what the heck I'm talking about. 4) No one thinks the skills and/or feats we use could use fine-tuning. 5) I completely blew-it when I titled this thread. (No doubt about this one!) This is my one any only shameless self-:bump: If I drop to page 2 again, then the community has spoken...or not spoken, as it were.;)
Runepriest 05-28-07, 03:48 PM	Sometime i might condense the skills myself, but that really screws with the skill system as it is.
tallric_kruush 05-28-07, 09:25 PM	Sometime i might condense the skills myself, but that really screws with the skill system as it is. It definitely changes the system, but I've found only good effects in my games. Condensing Listen, Search, Sense Awareness, and Spot into a single Perception skill (or Awareness, as I'd named it years ago), is one example. You get a lot of "bang for your buck", no doubt. It lets those classes that tend to be virtually useless outside of combat (roleplaying aside), such as Fighter, squeeze a little more use out of their few ranks. Some might feel that it could step on the toes of Rogues and other skill-specialists, but we haven't had that issue arise. If anything, now guys can participate in scenes that before would have featured their character standing in a corner doing nothing, while the Rogue applied his skills to the task solo. It seems to cut-back on a lot of downtime for those PCs who used to have very paltry skills. That's definitely a good thing! As a DM, seeing my PCs' willingness to try more daring tasks (generally aided by their increased efficacy with skills) seems to capture the feel of Eberron just a little more.
hecknoshow 06-06-07, 06:42 AM	I've combined spot and listen (alertness) but left search out on its own. I admit adding it in does make a certain amount of sense but its just a litlle to much 'bang' for to little 'buck'. Also combined balance and tumble (athletics) as a skill but a tumble still can't be attempted without ranks in the skill. I've pretty much left feats alone except for creating a few fighter feats with level prerequisits (my attempt at helping a fighter out at later levels where their power kinda tapers out).
Subtle Knife 06-06-07, 09:42 AM	In our campaign, we have condensed a few skills: Spot and Listen fused to become "Observation", Hide and Move Silently became "Sneak", and Open Locks was incorporated into Disable Device. One still makes independent Spot and Listen checks and can have modifiers that influence one or the other, but it allows for a more logical and efficient use of skill points. But don't listen to me, I also use Flaws and Traits, Taint rules, and Weapon Group Proficiencies. Our Player House Rules document is more than a hundred pages long. SK
Soloran 06-07-07, 05:19 PM	I've toyed with this idea myself. My current group consists of mostly newbies so I'm thinking that fusing skills like spot and listen into one 'awareness' skill might make things a little simpler. To those who have tried this: how has it gone with your players? How has it affected game balance?
tallric_kruush 06-07-07, 05:35 PM	I've toyed with this idea myself. My current group consists of mostly newbies so I'm thinking that fusing skills like spot and listen into one 'awareness' skill might make things a little simpler. To those who have tried this: how has it gone with your players? How has it affected game balance? It hasn't "unbalanced" our games at all. It has actually helped, I'd say. In encounters where certain skill sets are a must, you often end up with one character taking all the relevant actions. Sometimes this is okay. It let's each character have their turn in the spotlight. Yet, in other situations, it can be a drag to have three or more guys just standing around. It's even worse if the actual players act like they have ADD anytime their character's not actively involved. Rolling some of the skills into one (such as eliminating Open Lock and rolling that skill set into Disable Device) just make sense. A single Awareness skill allows a Fighter to cross-class a few ranks and actually get something out of it, for instance. The biggest impact in our games has been in the social interactions. By combining a few of the social skills and trimming the overall skill list back a bit, I've found players are eager to spend more of their available skill points in these social skills. I like anything that makes the world feel more alive; and nothing does that more than drawing the whole party into a social interaction with an NPC(s). These social skills themselves are some of those I've combined and rearranged; and I'm eager to see how SWSE has it's social skills arranged. Most of the new skill names seem to match-up with what I've been using as houserules for a couple of years now. Having reread my own post, now, I see I pretty much repeated the same things I'd already mentioned in my previous post, above.
Syltorian 06-07-07, 05:43 PM	I've missed your lengthy post, it seems... but I could not find anything under the links about streamlining feats (I found the part about Skills, and would be interested in the condition thresholds, thoug). Could you please point me to that?
tallric_kruush 06-07-07, 05:52 PM	I've missed your lengthy post, it seems... but I could not find anything under the links about streamlining feats (I found the part about Skills, and would be interested in the condition thresholds, thoug). Could you please point me to that? I think half this thread is my lengthy posts...:P There's only one specific mention of the streamlined or simplified feat system (the Running Attack feat), though it seems to be a major part of the new system that's been developed. Here's the link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview5 There are probably several threads about it, by now, over on the SWRpg boards. You'd have to sift through a lot of SWRPG fluff-type stuff, though. That board's different forums aren't as clearly defined/segregated by topic as the DnD/Eberron forums are.
Syltorian 06-07-07, 07:04 PM	Thanks for the link. I'll do some more research later regarding the feats. I'm still intruigued by the Damage Threshold rule, but it seems to be based on Fortitude Defense, which appears to be a bit different from DnD's Fortitude Save. From what I little can gather. I'd like a way of getting it into my game, however, as I chafe at the "either 100% healthy or dead" rule that mere hitpoints sometimes end up being. Regarding skills, I see the point in rolling them into wider skills. However, I personally prefer them to be seperate: I like to micromanage my characters. For instance, if there is one skill for social interaction, but I want a character who is good at relating to people (i.e. good Gather Info, good Diplomacy) but utterly naive (poor Sense Motive) how do I go about that? Or a character who has eagle-eyes but is slightly on the deaf side?
tallric_kruush 06-09-07, 10:46 AM	I'm still intruigued by the Damage Threshold rule, but it seems to be based on Fortitude Defense, which appears to be a bit different from DnD's Fortitude Save. From what I little can gather. I'd like a way of getting it into my game, however, as I chafe at the "either 100% healthy or dead" rule that mere hitpoints sometimes end up being. Yeah, I'm looking forward to digging into this mechanic myself once my copy of the SW SECR arrives via mail. Regarding skills, I see the point in rolling them into wider skills. However, I personally prefer them to be seperate: I like to micromanage my characters. For instance, if there is one skill for social interaction, but I want a character who is good at relating to people (i.e. good Gather Info, good Diplomacy) but utterly naive (poor Sense Motive) how do I go about that? That's a good point. This could be something that a Trait or Flaw could simulate. Perhaps a Trait that gives a small bonus (+1 or +2) to Cha-based social skills, but gives a -4 to Sense Motive and other like perception-based skills. Or a character who has eagle-eyes but is slightly on the deaf side? This was the first thing I thought of before rolling Listen and Spot together. Again a Flaw can do the job. It can impose either a flat Awareness skill penalty, or it can impose a circumstantial penalty (which is the way we decided to go). EDIT: I know you described a hearing-impaired character, but for some reason I went with the opposite in my example. Oh well, same principle. Realistically, blindness is a handicap. You can overcome it to a degree, and perhaps to even a greater degree in DnD-- think Montolio DeBrouchee. Yet, sometimes not being able to see simply can't be overcome. With that in mind, we circumstantially impose a -4 penalty (sometimes more) on the Awareness check. If there is simply no way hearing and general awareness of one's surroundings could make up for the lack of sight, you don't get to make the check at all. To this point, no one has played a visually- or aurally-impaired character. I've toyed with the idea myself, but another concept has always won out.
Syltorian 06-09-07, 11:26 AM	That's a good point. This could be something that a Trait or Flaw could simulate. Perhaps a Trait that gives a small bonus (+1 or +2) to Cha-based social skills, but gives a -4 to Sense Motive and other like perception-based skills. It would still depend on how high-level the character is. If you are only, say, third level with a maximum of 7 ranks in each skill, that would make a greater difference than if you are 13th level and have a maximum rank of 17... you'd still end up with an effective 13+(mod) in the Sense Motive subskill. Perhaps making the traits or flaws scaling to the level? But that would be difficult to balance properly, and would require a lot of playtesting. Naturally, I admit my reasoning has the flaw that even the skills there are currently could be broken up into smaller sub-units (as they did with Perform, when they changed to 3.5). One might, for example, be good at appraising jewelry, but how does that help to assess whether a painting is original? The little craft synergy does not make much of a difference. EDIT: I know you described a hearing-impaired character, but for some reason I went with the opposite in my example. Oh well, same principle. No worries. It was all about the principle anyway. Anyway, regarding the Awareness skill: blindness (and deafness) are great handicaps, and I agree that they do affect general awareness. But sometimes, you only need one sense. Take the classical scene where the PCs are in a dungeon when they hear the far-off rushing of water. It doesn't matter whether they are blind from birth, in complete darkness, or in a well-lit room with several corners between them and the water. "Blindness" does not need to be a character flaw; it can be induced in other ways; the most simple obviously being switching the lights off. I assume you simply apply more or less stringent circumstance penalties as the situation requires? But then you are making the difference between the skills anyway, though you do end up with people having more skillpoints available to spend on other things (and I agree that there is a problem... one of the reasons why I did allow all skills as in-class; the other reason being that I believe it makes for more realistic characters). Back to the topic, though; I wonder whether it would be possible to give people the opportunity to substract ranks from one or more of the sub-skills and add them to the others in the same category, up to a certain limit of course, to keep people from min-maxing too much. E.g. someone who spends 5 ranks in Awareness, but does not want to be good at listening could take away 4 ranks from Listen and up Spot and Search by 2 each; he couldn't add 3 to one because that would go past the limit. [Note: numbers are arbitrary, and would again require testing].
tallric_kruush 06-09-07, 12:10 PM	It would still depend on how high-level the character is. If you are only, say, third level with a maximum of 7 ranks in each skill, that would make a greater difference than if you are 13th level and have a maximum rank of 17... you'd still end up with an effective 13+(mod) in the Sense Motive subskill. True. I hadn't really thought that through, I guess. An actual Flaw, rather than a Trait, might be in order. Perhaps a new type of Flaw has been born--one the strips the character of a "subskill"? He may still take cross-class ranks in it as he wishes, making it an independant, cross-class skill. This could be an interesting option. Naturally, I admit my reasoning has the flaw that even the skills there are currently could be broken up into smaller sub-units (as they did with Perform, when they changed to 3.5). One might, for example, be good at appraising jewelry, but how does that help to assess whether a painting is original? The little craft synergy does not make much of a difference. Appraise was always a weird one to me, for this very reason. Anyway, regarding the Awareness skill: blindness (and deafness) are great handicaps, and I agree that they do affect general awareness. But sometimes, you only need one sense... I assume you simply apply more or less stringent circumstance penalties as the situation requires? Yeah, we apply varying penalties according to the circumstances; and if you're blind, for instance, and find yourself in a situation where hearing can't make up for your lack of sight (detecting enemies amidst a silence spell, for example), then you simply can't roll a skill check. You basically get an auto-fail. But then you are making the difference between the skills anyway, though you do end up with people having more skillpoints available to spend on other things (and I agree that there is a problem... one of the reasons why I did allow all skills as in-class; the other reason being that I believe it makes for more realistic characters). It's true that you can't help but differentiate between some of these skills, from time to time. I'd rather adjudicate from time to time, though, and have my players' characters with more ranks than to play the skills per RAW. I've found that having a more "skillful" party has encouraged better roleplaying. It's been well worth the efforts in tweaking the existing skills. Back to the topic, though; I wonder whether it would be possible to give people the opportunity to substract ranks from one or more of the sub-skills and add them to the others in the same category, up to a certain limit of course, to keep people from min-maxing too much. E.g. someone who spends 5 ranks in Awareness, but does not want to be good at listening could take away 4 ranks from Listen and up Spot and Search by 2 each; he couldn't add 3 to one because that would go past the limit. [Note: numbers are arbitrary, and would again require testing]. While it's not the same thing as what you're suggesting, I couldn't help but be reminded of the LotR Rpg Coda System's skills ruleset. For each skill you had in that game, you got to select a subskill that you were especially skilled in using. Observation (spot) +6, for instance, meant your base Observation modifier was +6, unless a given check specifically pertained to spotting something with your eyes. In that case, you got a +2 bonus, raising your total base modifier for the check to a +8. Perhaps the exchange of a modest "Skill-specialty bonus" for a "specialty penalty" could be accomplished through a Trait. (Again with the traits!! D20 is all about codifying and quantifying, after all.) I'm not sure this would accomplish much more than my original Trait/Flaw idea would, though, as it still doesn't scale. Ultimately, each method (RAW and Houseruling) is going to have pros and cons. It just comes down to which better fits your preferences.
lonewolf 06-10-07, 03:47 AM	Our group has done something different: We removed the Spellcraft skill. All aspects of it were put in the different Knowledge skills: You wanna know what the cleric over there is casting? give me a knowledge(religion) check. You wanna identify the magical abilities of this Warlock over there? Give me a knowledge(arcana) check. We also combined Knowledge(local) an Gather Information(You use different ability modifieres for different uses)