Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WizO_Sith 02-05-05, 11:47 AM	(Sorry I'm late with this) Love is central to the Human Experience... Love of country, the love of a family member or a close friend, the Romantic/Passonate Love of one person for another has started and ended wars. As a motivating force, Love can make people do things they'd never dream of otherwise. So it's fertile ground for story potential... How has Love been an issue in *your* games? Any advice on how to make good adventures that incorporate Love as an element?
Charles Phipps 02-05-05, 06:06 PM	(Sorry I'm late with this) Love is central to the Human Experience... Love of country, the love of a family member or a close friend, the Romantic/Passonate Love of one person for another has started and ended wars. As a motivating force, Love can make people do things they'd never dream of otherwise. What an excellent storyline motivator. I'll happy participate in this thread. So it's fertile ground for story potential... Agreed. How has Love been an issue in *your* games? The clearest example has probably been in the current love triangle in its infancy with our two warforged and a human girl. It's an interesting storyline that basically has already taken on several romantic tones. Red Knight, the juggernaut warforged, cares little to become human. He's a being who thinks of himself as a machine and is proud of it. To say he's haugtily arrogant about being above "the lesser" emotions is something that goes without question. Adora, is a warforged whom was briefly transformed into a human being during an adventure involving an eldritch machine. It's pretty damn horrifying to Red Knight but to Adora it was beautiful. She has been 'partnered' with Red Knight for years and wants to persuade him to find some way to become human. Ironically, this makes her jealous of the Kalashtar innocent Sylvie. From an alien world and mind, she's very affectionate and doesn't differentiate love by normal standards because her people have no real concept of beauty relatable to humans but she has a human body. Red Knight finds her presence...soothing...and is thus very protective and some would say jealous. It's a fun dynamic that shatters alot of expectations about romance. Any advice on how to make good adventures that incorporate Love as an element? 1. Always play to your player's comfort level Some players will only get fired up when they find out about the brigands having raped the maidens in their pillage and hate them more. Others will be disgusted with their DM for trivializing the matter. Some will find their character less than comfortable sleeping around, others will want to James Bond the whole thing. Unless you're their girlfriend/boyfriend and taking the roleplaying thing way too far....its always good to fade to black. Also, many times, some players aren't comfortable RPGing romance with the DM as the NPC and there's no chance of incorporating it 'in character' at all. 2. Love is not a good thing The best thing to do with love in games I've found is to point out that while everyone thinks its flowers and roses, the old stories reminded us how insanely destructive it could be. A man might murder his wife because he realizes she doesn't love him because of her adulteries, a woman might order all the women in her territories killed more beautiful than her to win a man's heart, a serial killer might stalk the night because she saw her parents marriage destroyed by streetwalkers. Obsession, possessiveness, jealousy, and loneliness are all extremely good motivators for games. 3. Let players set the pace Many of the best storylines are taken because players want to be with the Galadriels and Eowyns of the storyline. Don't stop the female fighter from trying to win the heart of Aragorn from Arwen. Some of the best works are generated from such drama that goes into things. Even if you intended the NPCs to have a "true love" or think they're above such a piddling character, sometimes its better to fudge. Othertimes, its best to say "Sorry, Storm doesn't like you. Even if you have an 19 charisma." 4. Love can absolve you of all sins I wrote in the "Warforged vampire" thread about how a warforged murdered people for their blood to save the life of her love and fellow warforged in an alchemical process. The players, while they knew what they had to do, were very sympathetic.
JabBond 02-06-05, 01:13 AM	I highly recommend the "Warforged with love Interests" thread for those interested in this. I had a female halfling rogue who had an... interesting... relationship with a half-orc barbarian. The whole risking life and limb bit made them quite close. He stood over her and fought off a pack of wolves while she lay at -9 hp. But both were happy when a halfling ranger fell head over heels in love with the rogue. (something about making a bet that rescued him from slavery...) Later on in the storyline, her own pregnancy allowed her to be a decoy to a BBEG group that wanted to capture another pregnant halfling, whose child was prophecied to be the next avatar of Yondalla. Love is important. It's another motivator, other than "get more treasure, buy more stuff, rinse and repeat". It's another reward, for a DM who detests giving out one more magic item that the party will just decide to sell. As far as running it appropriately, it all depends on the age and maturity of the players. With younger, like 10 or so, just describe it as the knight gives the pretty sorceress a flower each time she visits the castle, y'know, crush-type stuff. Older adolescents and teens could go a little deeper, but I would still avoid sexual issues so as not to panic the parents of your players. For the crowds I'm with, long-term relationships, marriage, children, divorce, all come into play because it's a big part of our actual lives. It is something we can more easily visualize our PCs having an opinion about, whether it's my "fleeing from an arranged marriage" cleric, or my happily married halfling rogue with two kids, who has to return from her teaching career to adventuring.
Gadriel 02-07-05, 10:00 AM	Ah yes, love, the thing that, supposedly, makes the world turn. However, love is also a very dangerous thing, and can be, very, very dangerous in a campaign. Ever since Eberron came out and I started playing it, all of my characters have had some sort of love interest/family. From my artificer from Cyre who's family died in the Mourning, to my Half-Elf who's wife was captured by the forces of Vol, and finally to my Human Wizard from Sharn who's fiancee was also killed during the Mourning. Love interests make a very good backstory element, since most characters people play are around my age, or about 20ish. Most of us peoples who are around this age have had some sort of relationship by this time, so shouldn't our characters? Or, even better for back story, why hasn't your character succumbed to call of love? And there are a huge amount of reasons why a character can go either way. But now onto the player part. At least in the campaigns that I have played in, love between characters just doesn't work. Maybe it's because all of the characters are played by guys, including the female characters. Maybe it's because a lot of the female characters have, shall we say, problems (like the mind of a 4 year old, but the body of a 25 year old). Or, perhaps it requires a, for lack of a better term, mature enough player mind in order to do such things. For example, a player who is always working against the party and keeps insulting other party members constantly, is frankly, not capable of having an inter-character relationship. Also, a player who plays a character who is like every single other character you play is also probably not capable of a relationship. So, to sum this all up, in order to have love in a party, both the character and the player must be on at a certain point in order to succesfully have a relationship between characters. Sometimes, it's just not possible for characters to have a good relationship. But other times, it is possible, and can have really cool gameplay effects, like when a friend of mine had another character's/the big bad end guy's baby. Which brings me to my second point... Love between characters can open up a big ol' can of worms. And in a D&D world, many, MANY things must be taken into account. You must enter the mind of your character in order for this to be succesful, and here are a few things to look out for. For example, human character falls in love with elf character. While this is great, notice the age differences. While some might say that this shouldn't make a big difference, think about it for a second. The human is only going to live another 70 or 80 years if he or she is 20, but the elf will live for another 700! To see how something like this would work out, I highly suggest the Drizzt Do'Urden books, and pay attention to the relationship between Drizzt and Cattie Brie. How this age difference is this going to affect the relationship is just the start of the problems. Also, love usually leads to more, shall we say, intimate incounters. Are a halfling and a human physically compatible, and are half-halflings possible? And is a Warforged fully functionable?!?!? Problems like this can also affect a relationship. And, continuing, what happens when a character dies, or is caputered by the enemy? Love is a complicated issue, but in my opinion, can be very fun to role play and can open up avenues for your DM to fool around with. But, don't take it lightly, and role play it wisely. I hope that my "little" post here has been helpful, and helps you play your character differently/better. Just writing this thing has helped me immensely, and made me realize many things about how I play my character.
fizzbang 02-07-05, 01:57 PM	Love is always a delicate subject for roleplaying, and every player has their own line of comfort for roleplaying in-character romances. Obviously, any good GM is going to learn those limits before seriously undertaking a romance in their game. However, this has all already been covered well by the previous posters. For everyone who isn't comfortable with it in their game, or who simply wants to keep their character comparatively light on that subject, there's still a whole world of love-based influences. In our party, the shifter ranger has a deep love of his family. Even though he's on the run from his brother for deserting the Droaam raiding parties where they had both served, he still writes letters home to his sister in the Eldeen Reaches every week. He even includes very carefully worded messages to be passed along to his brother; even though his brother is duty-bound to track him down and kill him, he couldn't imagine a life where they didn't treat each other as family. House members often have to be very careful about how they love -- as the novel says, "Blood before love". A dragonmarked heir may very well find themselves facing arranged marriages, or at least facing difficult choices of loyalty. A religious member of a house may often find themselves having to chose between their faith and their family. As they say, love can tear them apart...
Beleriphon 02-07-05, 02:14 PM	And lets not forget good old greek tragedy. Homer's epic poems, the Illiad and the Oddessy, are all about love. In fact its love that spawns the Trojan war, what keeps it going, and ultimately what ends the whole afair. Heck even poor old Oddyseus gets loved, and lost a few times. I think an idea here that might be worth exploring is not so much how does love fit into and RPG (because it does, since I think its fair to say we all love Eberron), but rather what is love. Is it nothing more than a severe neurochemical reaction the brain that makes us do stupid things? It is a philosophical ideal that nobody can ever truly acheive? Is it something that a warforged can even understand (I'll definately say that experience love)?
fizzbang 02-07-05, 03:28 PM	I think an idea here that might be worth exploring is not so much how does love fit into and RPG (because it does, since I think its fair to say we all love Eberron), but rather what is love. Is it nothing more than a severe neurochemical reaction the brain that makes us do stupid things? It is a philosophical ideal that nobody can ever truly acheive? Is it something that a warforged can even understand (I'll definately say that experience love)? Trust me, this is a debate that could go on forever; "Love" is one of those terms where everyone has their own definition, just like "Art" or "Good". But in the effort of facilitating understanding, I'll set out a basic thing for folks to work with: The term "Love" is used to cover far too many emotions, so it's very important to break it down a bit for convenience of discussing one type or another. The "classical" breakdown involves three versions of love: Agape: Roughly translates to "well-wishing" and is the all-purpose love between a person who hopes for good things for another person and is generally happy to help them in simple fashions. In most religions, it's the way that a person is encouraged to feel about others: a sort of enlightened care for everyone. Philos: A much more personal love, this means "brotherly" love, and is commonly associated with the dedication to a nation, comraderie of soldiers, and love of your own family and dearest friends. It's a very common one to run into in fantasy characters, perhaps the most common of them all, and while Eberron's intrigue may encourage distrust between many characters, it serves to make the bonds of Philos that much closer and vital to the character. Eros: The ever-so-familiar "lust", this is the physical desire that everyone recognizes. Of course, this is a classic motivating force for many characters (albeit usually the more roguish ones that can spring up in Eberron's pulp flavor), but playing it past a point requires players and gamemasters who are very careful that they recognize each other's boundaries. As was mentioned above, it's generally best to "fade to black" at a certain point. Anyway, there are innumerable other distinctions and specializations of the term "Love", and they can all provide excellent character traits, plot hooks, and tragic flaws.
Charles Phipps 02-07-05, 07:14 PM	One question that's viable for Eberron is the question of how exactly love effects the entirety of Eberron in a socio-political sense. I'd personally like to know the following things.... 1. If Eberron's social mores regarding marriage are medieval, renassiance, or more cosmopolitan still. 2. If there's bias sensually in Eberron and whether or not forms of prejudice exist on that end. 3. How the nobility and guild houses use marriage and romance between them politically
Gadriel 02-07-05, 08:20 PM	Well, I think it's along these lines... 1. People in Eberron, especially those who are middle class (which does exist in Eberron from what I have read), marry more for love than anything else. Because they don't have large family holdings, and many of them do not aspire to become huge millionaires, they would just marry because they have fallen in love. Some upper middle class merchants or powerful figures may attempt to marry into the Dragon Marked Houses or royalty of some country, so arranged marriages would not be unheard of their. The lower class, would marry for love, because in their poverty, what else do they have but their love? But the upper eschlons of society are a different story. The royalty in some countries would probably attempt arranged marriages with other royalty in order to cement some sort of peace or contract, but I suspect that a lot of them still marry for love. But the Dragon Marked Houses are REALLY different. In order to protect the lineage of the marks and whatnot, marriage is probably strictly directed by the house elders, and intermarriage of houses probably never occurs. I could see some sort of Romeo and Juliet thing happening. So, to answer your question, I think it's a wierd comglomeration of all 3. 2. As for sensual taboos and whatnot, I'm guessing it's a pretty open culture. Standards taboos, like adultery, incest, and others probably still exist, but since religion isn't as big in Eberron, and the Silver Flame seems to be more into stopping evil and corruption, you could probably safely take our modern day taboos on the subject, and toss out everything created by the Christian church. 3. I kinda answered it in 1. Hope that helps.
Flying_Nimrod_3 02-08-05, 07:44 AM	My old character fell in love with Sharess, an elven secretary for the Mage University. He courted her, and loved her dearly. When she was captured by the BBEG, he did everything the BBEG wanted to get her back. When her body was 'ported to him, he paid the church everything he had to get her restored to life and swore to not only kill the man, but to hurt him as much as he had hurt my character. When the man died, I even left my old character, whom I loved playing, because Sharess made him promise never to adventure again. "Love may be the most powerful force on Earth." It drives us to do great and terrible things. Love in a game can be the greatest hold a DM can have over his players. As shown above, the bad guys will find ways to eliminate their threats. As the PCs grow in power, a direct confrontation with them may prove disastrous... but to take those that the PCs love is more powerful than the best Dominate Monster spell out there. Siblings, lovers, comrades, it's very easy for the BBEG to find these people and use them to make the PC do whatever he / she wants.
KMFDM 02-11-05, 11:24 AM	During my OA campaign, we had three characters die but brought back to life by a powerful artifact called the 6 Scrolls. The funny thong was that whoever performed the ritual to bring their souls back would have power over those given life a second time. Well our female ninja player (my real-life gf) raised the three characters, but soon the raised characters slowly saw the ninja in a new light and started growing new feelings for her. The players beautfully roleplayed their characters around this new emotion even if it be magical. One character was a respectful human shaman began making things for her, protecting her in battle, etc. The 2nd character was a Vanara Wu Jen and a little crazy, he took his love to almost an addiction and could not stand to be away form her. His only thoughts were about her. He even had a giant mural be painted of her! The human shaman had to control wu jen once and awhile if he got out of had with his addiction of love. The last character was a Vanara monk dedicated to his monastic order which included abstinance. He roleplayd it as all new feeling, he was confused and struggled with his monk oath. So he wrote some pretty good Haikus and poems, which I gave him oodles of experience for. As for the ninja, she thought it was cute but they were too religious and she could not be made into a perfect wife. Allowing your characters to roleplay love can have interesting results, but you really need an experienced group and one that understands what is realistic. None of my players felt it had to be a physical/sexual love. Look at real life, we still court our love interests, so why should players think in one day they have found their perfect love. There are so many good examples of Knights and Cavaliers seeking just a single look, hand, or scarf of a fair maiden. Players should not think love is just physical. So use Love with caution!
Ellipsis 02-20-05, 01:07 PM	Trust me, this is a debate that could go on forever; "Love" is one of those terms where everyone has their own definition, just like "Art" or "Good" To quote the second sucky sequel to the most magnificent movie of all time, "Love is a word."
chocobochicken 02-25-05, 04:57 PM	I guess my story is quite the opposite here. I've never had any experiences with love interests developing in my entire DND gaming career. I think it's due to a combination of the following reasons: * I complicate things by always "cross-playing" as female characters, and the other players don't want to touch this with a ten-foot pole. On the bright side, at least I haven't had to deal with any undesireable incidents occuring to these ladies. * I'm always at a difference in alignment with fellow party members. I tend towards lawful good, unselfish saint-types because that's what I know best. My fellow players all prefer chaotic neutral (sometimes evil if they can get away with it), selfish thieves/mercenaries who couldn't give a care about regular society. In fact, the only reason I usually travel with them at all is due to DM railroading. * My characters never get a chance to meet anyone respectable. All the other party members are uninteresting, and I'm never in one place long enough to get to know an NPC (due to constant adventuring). So when I got my chance to DM, I thought I'd test the love waters and introduce an intriguing, good-aligned vampire sorceress (long story) to a young man in the party. There was a little bit of an interest caught, and a smooth move on his part when he used mage hand to pour her a glass of wine. Unfortunately, that's as far as it got, because another character knocked a helping shopkeeper unconscious, kidnapped his 9-year-old daughter, caught the attention of the city guard, took one guard out, and barricaded him and the party in an old wine celler! In fact, the only thing that prevented everyone from having to reroll new characters was this vampiress, who was nice enough to gaseous form herself into the room, alter self into the guard captain, and Bluff her way to leading the party out of town, after which she returned to her original mission. In the end, I decided to give them the "Bad Ending," and had word reach the party that the entire town was ransacked in their absence, and the vampiress was decapitated in a swordfight against another (evil) vampire. I like the emotions of love stories, but I seem to be surrounded by morons. :weep: