Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Streamweaver 12-27-05, 01:09 PM	Sorry I haven't been around as much lately, got married and the holidays came up so I've been very short on time. Hope to return soon. The narrative nature of a setting and how it fits with the kinds of stories individual players are looking for has been on my mind lately and in particularly I was wondering how people saw Eberron fitting female gamers overall. If any of you have experiencs with this I'd like to hear about it. My player group has been evenly split between the sexes and is about to have a player shuffle that will mean i have more women players than men. I've adapted story lines to fit the kinds of things my female players are looking (and yes at least in my group there is a difference) for a bit better but was wondering how generally appealing to a female gamer Eberron is "out of the box"? Do you feel you need to adapt the world to appeal to women players a bit better and if so how are you doing it? Just wondering is all since we've a three week break in our campaign and what direction I want our story to take has been on my mind.
Jack_Rains 12-27-05, 01:19 PM	My finace plays Eberron with my group and is one my best players. She enjoys the many subtle levels of detail that the world offers story wise and creates characters that fit well into interaction with the world's NPCs and the other players. I think since the world offers itself to intrigue and mystery so well that many female players enjoy it much more than they do the hack and slash dungeon crawl. My games are centered around stories and character interaction but she also enjoys the action packed moments when all things start coming together. Of course my fiance's favorite character in fantasy is Conan so I guess she may be a bit different from a lot of female gamers out there. But since I've only had a few females play in my games I have to say I'm not much of an expert on the subject. Just going with what I know.
taski 12-27-05, 04:35 PM	I'd say, ask them what direction they want the story to go in. That way, you actually know what your players want, and you don't have to guess. Plus, you won't look like you're trying to stereotype them. If you send them on romantic escapades with shirtless Bond knock-offs, when all they want to do is hack up illithids, they'll think you're a pig, and a crappy, railroading DM. Well. I don't know about them, but that would be my thought. The moral of this mini-rant: Ask your players. Don't rely on other gamers' experiences with people who aren't your players.
D666 12-27-05, 04:44 PM	I'd say, ask them what direction they want the story to go in. That way, you actually know what your players want, and you don't have to guess. That might work for a female DM, but guys are supposed to 'just know' what women want, whether it's flowers or illithid hacking :) Gene
Pocalem 12-27-05, 04:48 PM	I'm biased in the fact while DMing games, this has never happened before, but when starting a campaign, during character creation you should probably ask all the players what they are looking for in the campaign. That way you can off the start plan the campaign to fulfill their wants as much as possible.
Pigus Wgmmg 12-27-05, 05:13 PM	I agree that you must ask them. And i think it's diferent from character to character of the same femal palyer and femal player to female player. I only have one now in my group and she playes quite different characters only in my two Eberron chronicles. and i think what she whant me as a storyteller to do differ in both storries. Even if she probably would like if i put her Shifter ranger Gera (whit low int and cha) in a social situation where she woulden't be home i think that the player would get bored if thats the only thing i did. I am babbling :D My hint's: 1) dialouge 2) dialouge 3) hey i think you got it :D
Calibim 12-27-05, 05:15 PM	That might work for a female DM, but guys are supposed to 'just know' what women want, whether it's flowers or illithid hacking :) Gene :nonono: You did not just go there.... There was a sign that said "Keep Out on Pain of Stabbity Death" and you grabbed a map hopped an airship and went there anyway.... :nonono:
taski 12-27-05, 06:08 PM	That might work for a female DM, but guys are supposed to 'just know' what women want, whether it's flowers or illithid hacking :) Gene Yeah, I hate that, too. ;) Edit: Meaning, I hate expectations/stereotypes based on sex (or race or whatever), no matter who it comes from.
Edymnion 12-27-05, 06:39 PM	:nonono: You did not just go there....Its true though. If I hear "You know what you did" ONE more time when I don't have the slightest clue what they're talking about, I'm going to scream... But, just off the top of my head, put in something "cute". I don't mean anything blatant, but something thats got just enough of that cute edge to it to kick in the old motherly instinct. A goblin orphan that adopts the rest of the party as it's family (and turns out to be a surprisingly powerful Sorcerer), or something like that.
D666 12-27-05, 06:53 PM	:nonono: You did not just go there.... There was a sign that said "Keep Out on Pain of Stabbity Death" and you grabbed a map hopped an airship and went there anyway.... :nonono: It's holiday depression, it has me feeling a bit suicidal :D Gene
Save-vs-DM 12-28-05, 12:13 AM	Well, my wife plays with us and has a great time. I've found that honestly, with most women, there's really not that much difference between male and female players when you get down to it, honestly. Cheers, Save vs DM
Beleriphon 12-28-05, 02:47 AM	I will give one warning based on my observations of competative sports, women generally keep a grudge far longer, and in a much more malicious way then men do in similar situations. This tends not to happen on an individual level, but as a group. Other primates display similar behaviour. :teach: So be warned, kill off a favourite character and you and your mates might go without for a long time. :) Or you know, we could all be a little crazy as we're clearly sex deprived girlfriendless D&D geeks. Right Edy? Right.... somebody..... :weep: Stream, congrats by the way about getting married.
TheRedRobedWizard 12-28-05, 10:04 AM	Well, from experience, most of the female gamers I've gamed with have been far more interested in the "kill things until they die from it" side of gaming than the "romantic and/or courtly politics and dialogue" side of things. Maybe that's just my luck with the ladies. -TRRW
MrFilthyIke 12-28-05, 10:15 AM	Well, from experience, most of the female gamers I've gamed with have been far more interested in the "kill things until they die from it" side of gaming than the "romantic and/or courtly politics and dialogue" side of things. Maybe that's just my luck with the ladies. -TRRW I'm in that camp. The wife gets bored it there's not enough action, combat, or story movement. And she loves to kill things till they're dead. And collect the severed heads. By the Gods, I love her. :D
Missekat 12-28-05, 10:16 AM	Erhm.. may I - as a female gamer - insert a wee comment? Steamweaver asked how female gamers liked the flavour of the Eberron setting, (or that is how I understood his post, anyway), and as a female I can answer that: IT ROCKS! Now, I assume you guys would want some reasons for this, and not just accept my - clearly a bit biased - answer? ok then: It has untold possibilities for stories, intrigue, darkness, mysteries, bloody dismemberment with screaming virgins on an alter, (no comment on the gender of the virgin), and insanity, jolly bartenders, wild monsters.. etc. ok, I got carried away. It's a huge non-statted world with great hooks for any kind of adventure. Yeah.. thats probably what gets your geek on too, but what can I say. Girls love the thing you guys already stated, and Eberron has uncounted possibilities for them.
MrFilthyIke 12-28-05, 10:23 AM	Yeah.. thats probably what gets your geek on too, but what can I say. Girls love the thing you guys already stated, and Eberron has uncounted possibilities for them. Quoted again for 'struth
Kid SixXx 12-28-05, 10:28 AM	Sorry I haven't been around as much lately, got married and the holidays came up so I've been very short on time. Hope to return soon. Congratulations on your nuptuals! ... and apologies for this long-winded post. The narrative nature of a setting and how it fits with the kinds of stories individual players are looking for has been on my mind lately and in particularly I was wondering how people saw Eberron fitting female gamers overall. If any of you have experiencs with this I'd like to hear about it. I make it a point to always include women at my table. Not only do they offer fresh perspectives on the game, they often make significant contributions to the storyline in general. My rules of thumb for keeping everyone happy & getting women to sit at your gaming table: 1. Give Everyone Time In The Spotlight! Most times games fail because parties become cults of personality. You have one male leader who hogs the plot hooks while the rest of the party tags along for the ride. Develop plot hooks that force other party members to become plot catalysts, or develop adventures which alternate in style of play. Most females that I have DMed usually make skill monkey PC's like wizards or rogues, so give them time to figure out puzzles, research lore, or solve mysteries. Most guys like to barsh stuff, so seek balance between combat and social interaction. I hate using the term "roleplay" when discussing the social aspects of the game, because the assumption is that roleplayers only concern themselves with social aspects of the game and don't necessarily enjoy the creation or tactical aspects of the game. This is not necessarily the case. 2. Don't hinder PC creation. One really cute girl that regularly shows up at my game table invariably makes male PC's because she hates metagame flirting. I can't say that I blame her so I don't discourage her from finding her own sense of enjoyment from the game. Some of the best female PC's I've ever seen gamed have been run by guys and visa versa, so try not to make strange faces :mymy: at people that have weird... er... unique ideas about what sort of PC they'd like to play. One guy I know only plays minotaurs. I have no clue why he does it, but then again I never bothered to ask because he always seems like he's having a good time. 3. Control your male players' testosterone levels... carefully. Goes back to number 2. If you create an enjoyable environment that all of your gamers enjoy, they'll stick around. Always iron out any metagame issues that may make females feel uncomfortable (ie. unwanted PC flirtation, inappropriate comments, etc.), but don't get so wrapped up in smoothing out wrinkles that you create a totally sterile environment. You will want some type of party dynamic (confrontational or otherwise), because it's boring as hell when the party is always on the same page of music. OTOH, all conflicts should be gamed: they should not arise from metagame or RL issues. I can tolerate the Changeling Rogue not seeing eye-to-eye with the Kalashtar Soulknife because of alignment issues. Frankly, that's the type of play that I like to see because it shows that folks put some thought behind the numbers & words on their character sheets. What I can't tolerate is Player 1 & Player 2 not seeing eye-to-eye and having their PC's solve their real-life enmity. The old "my rogue suddenly backstabs the wizard" scenario readily comes to mind, which is only pent-up ill will rearing it's head in the game. That behavior is counterproductive. 4. Ground rules in advance. If everyone knows what is expected of them, everyone will tend to obey the rules. Get all of your table etiquette issues out in the open from the beginning and there shouldn't be any problems. 5. Never assume anything. One gripe I've always heard about RPG's is their male-centric take on everything from combat to female anatomy. As much as I admire the soft curves of the female form, I still tend to wonder what neolithic, stereotypical ideas run through the minds of some fantasy artists when they craft their images. :rolleyes: Sadly, in the rush to pre-determine the personal tastes of all of my players and avoid offending them, I tend to become a censor nazi. I often get offended for some of the ladies at my table when the pic of the stereotypical "buxom female warrior in chainmail bikini" shows up in a module illio, regardless of whether or not the female player is embarassed herself. Some women are somewhat embarrassed or concerned with these images, while others actually revel in the stereotypical femininity of such images. Male DM's like myself need to remember that people come in all different shapes & sizes and need find out what makes his players happy. If your female player wants her PC to dress like Red Sonja (http://www.femforce-femfans.com/essays/rsthorne.jpg), then let her. If she wants her PC to be covered from head to toe, then that's fine as well. I really like Darren MA Calvert's Eberron illio of Snow-In-Dusk (http://www.yodaboys.com/snowindusk.jpg), the female Shifter cleric of the Traveller. For example, over the holidays I flipped through my copy of the EXH and got to the now infamous pic of the Drow clan in Praxirek (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/exhbk_gallery/90627.jpg) My girlfriend peeked over my shoulder & noticed my smirk of admiration. I frowned when I figured out that she knew what had crossed my mind & I knew I had been busted. :( Her reply? "She's kinda cute. I've seen a pair of boots like hers at Hot Topic. Let's go see if they still have a pair." I cheerfully got my keys & went to start my truck.
Logos7 12-28-05, 01:02 PM	Well the only thing i've noticed with female players is that they don't get into a rut as easily ( which is good) The only other thing i could suggest is blink dog puppies Logos
Streamweaver 12-28-05, 01:07 PM	Thanks to all for the well wishes on my marriage. Thanks also for all the interesting feedback. I didn’t express my question well I think. My own game is doing well so I wasn't looking for advice, I was just trying to kibitz on the nature of Pulp settings and female players I suppose. Gaming tends to be a male dominated hobby (VtM aside) and I was pondering intrinsic elements of a setting and how they appeal to the sexes. In the case of The Realms it's basically a fantasy setting, which has some roots in romance, spanning traditional story telling themes from the princess in the tower all the way to Beowulf beating Grendel to death with his own arm. It can have broad appeal to both sexes and people have had plenty of time to build connections to fantasy themes, which have been with us for centuries. Pulp hasn’t been around as long and I don’t think there are as many instant connections to the genre for many people. Eberron as a pulp setting could be perceived as being more oriented toward male players than traditional fantasy settings. You could argue it's not (and I'm about to argue it's not here) but movie studios pretty much have the demographic data to prove pulps appeal is mostly male. My mind started going down this road when one of my female players expressed to me after reading through the Eberron setting and various other Eberron sources, that it's "very guy-ish" and that she appreciated the time I spent embellishing and adding things that made the game more interesting for them (them women in my game). We broke for the holidays after that session so I haven't had a chance to talk further with her about that statement. I have to divine a bit of what I think my player meant here and Ill be generalizing so bear that in mind with the rest of this post. I think my player generally misunderstood the difference between peoples interpretation of the Eberrron's Pulp setting and the actual elements of pulp. I think she saw this because people concentrate mostly on the violence and action inherent in the genre (either direct or implied) and not so much about other elements. This is an implementation problem and not a particular difficulty with Eberron or pulp and I actually think if it's done right it will have broad appeal and in my case seems to. Personally I try to concentrate on three elements that make a pulp story for me and I'll try to list those and how/why I think they are appealing to my female players. 1. Story: Pulp needs to have SOME kind of story to really work and you can't just have X number of monsters in a 30 by 30 room protecting a chest for it to work. Even simple pulp stories involved a lot of emotion and or tragedy and I list this first because it gives everything else in the game something I think is very important, context. Context is enjoyable for everyone but having a reason beyond getting rich has generally been more important for the women playing in my games than the men. Groups of guys seem more satisfied with 30x30 room encounters but everyone is happier if they know why they are going to the room in the first place and what wining or losing means to the world. 2. Dialog: Something particular to the pulp genre to me is the dialog and what people talk most about after seeing a pulp film isn't the action, it's the dialog. "Snakes... very dangerous. You go first", "Of all the gin joints in the world why'd ya have to walk into mine", "Zed is dead baby, Zed is dead". The genre is filled with witty banter and dialog and translating that into game becomes important to me as a GM. Again this is something everyone reacts to, it makes the world more interactive but I think active dialog is something women gamers react well to. 3. Action: I definitely think women gamers react to action and Eberron is full of that. The important thing to remember is that violence doesn't always equal action. Again the 30x30 room can be violent but without a richness to the environment there isn't going to be a whole lot of action. For example I've had plenty of pitched battles in my campaigns but invariably the fights with something extra going get my male and female players involved equally. One of the most enjoyable fights in recent weeks was set in the rafters of a House Philairn circus tent, running back and forth along the rope bridges and precarious platforms while trying to stop a Thuranni assassin from killing a local magistrate and starting a war between enclaves of the two Houses. In the end I agree that I don't think there are big differences between male and female players but in my experience creating stories that appeal to a mixed group raises the bar for a GM. You really have to engage yourself and create a rich story, memorable interactions and gripping action. Creating a great game ends up being much the same for either sex. Maybe that communicated things a bit better I'm wondering what your actual experiences with this may be.
Streamweaver 12-28-05, 01:22 PM	The only other thing I could suggest is blink dog puppies LOL, Morakai I take it? Indeed in my last campaign the players received a house as a quest reward, a run down and dilapidated place that had been abandoned. Knowing two of my female PCs I tossed in a female blink dog who was pregnant as an encounter while trying to take over the house. It was cute and they loved it but this actually was more of a GM metagaming thing than they realized. When players get holdings and a home they sometimes tend to "turtle" in a hard world like Eberron, basically refusing to leave home so nothing happens to it. Giving them a brood of blink guard dogs was a nice rp thing for them but it also enabled them to travel and feel relatively confident about that safety of their house. Since I intended for most of the adventures to happen away from home this wasn't really a problem for me in terms of game balance. They weren't tempted to power game and take the bunch along because they knew I'd mercilessly slaughter the blink dogs, so we all came out ahead. :) BTW yes this is a perfect example of the difference between male and female players in my own game. In this case the women gushed over the puppies and the guys in the game pretty much just rolled their eyes. It was the guys in the game who talked about the advantage of bringing the puppies along on advendures and the women who gave them the "don't you dare!" dressing down. Pretty much a classic male/female difference.
Kid SixXx 12-28-05, 01:22 PM	I didn’t express my question well I think. My own game is doing well so I wasn't looking for advice, I was just trying to kibitz on the nature of Pulp settings and female players I suppose. Well, that reeks. I preached a sermon & didn't even answer your question. Pulp has more than it's share of strong, female archaetypes (Red Sonja, Dejah Thoris, Belit, Taarna), but they are invariably draw with a male's stereotypical appreciation for an exaggerated female form. I think this is why Pulp tends not to be well received by women. Whatever admirable or impressive qualities that Dejah Thoris may have (ie. bravery, loyalty, one of the best swordfighters on Mars, unconditional love for her husband, John Carter, the Warlord of Mars), are lost in the shuffle because most folks only seem to notice that Dejah Thoris is usually depicted (by Frazetta! I love his work, but he's got some reeeally Rubenesque ideas about how ladies should look.) as a very attractive woman with a bosom that defies gravity. I usually have to do a lot of fence mending when ladies hear me mention "pulp" in the same sentence as "Eberron." I usually try to emphasize the same things you mentioned: the "high adventure" aspects that pulp brings to fantasy, witty dialogue, action, and scenery. Oddly enough, scenery seems to be one of the more important elements. If I can help my players paint a mental portrait of the majesty of Sharn's towers or the desolation of the Demon Wastes, then that's half the battle won. My female players seem to be more appreciative of the imagery I try to relate during game sessions. And my women players love combat as much as the guys do. Action does not have to be represented by violence, but bear in mind that girls sometimes like to brawl as much as guys do... in game, naturally.
Streamweaver 12-28-05, 01:30 PM	Well, that reeks. I preached a sermon & didn't even answer your question. Nope you gave an interesting opition, I didn't ask my question right. :) Pulp has more than it's share of strong, female archaetypes (Red Sonja, Dejah Thoris, Belit, Taarna), but they are invariably draw with a male's stereotypical appreciation for an exaggerated female form. Yes I think that's something of a disconnect in the genre, the women in it are usually made to appeal to men. It's still the case I think in most modern pulp stories, but not the case in many modern fantasy stories. Oddly enough, scenery seems to be one of the more important elements. If I can help my players paint a mental portrait of the majesty of Sharn's towers or the desolation of the Demon Wastes, then that's half the battle won. I definitely agree here that painting the picture is a very important element and they react well to it. It's more likely one of my women players will ask me about a detail in a place or about something than a male player. In fact I'm sometimes at a loss in the case of a particular female player of mine who wants a level of detail about jewelry NPCs are wearing or out of treasure chests that stretches my ability to come up with.
Chiyo 12-28-05, 03:16 PM	As far as direction of campaign, I usually draw from my players background stories. I require them to give me about a page of background history that we end up working on together to fit it into my campaign. So from the start I have ideas from the players on what they like about their character, their motivations and what they're looking for in the campaign itself. In my all female PBEM group, that's worked really well especially since the pace is slow so everyone has time for very descriptive style of roleplaying and I can afford time to present more details. Sometimes it drags things to a crawl and I don't know if men who'd like to achieve goals, resolve quests, etc would be as satisfied with this style. By comparing our regular gaming group (5 men, me and another player's wife as only women) and my PBEM group, it's obvious there is a difference in emphasis. It seems like one group is generally more content with facts and relevant info for solving the main plot while the other cares more about the journey and how enjoyable it is. As far as Eberron is concerned, I don't think it's the traditional pulp setting that makes it appealing for me. Pulp settings are often VERY stereotypical about women. You're either a babe (please help/rescue me), the amazon type or the evil bi.... That's pretty boring IMO, not to mention simplistic and sexist. I was more interested in Eberron's atmosphere, consistency and the tendency to depart from hack&slash dungeon crawl marathons in scenarii which gets so boring in other games. I don't mind battles at all but I'd rather have them as one of outcome (among possible others preferably) of a long progression involving lots of roleplaying where your character's personality can e expressed. I like the tactical challenge of the battles themselves actually. But it's cool when it's just one aspect of the game and when as a player you feel empowered to go another route and still stay in the spirit of the setting.
Edymnion 12-28-05, 04:15 PM	Awww... puppies... I wanna play wit da puppies! Actually, friend of mine's dog just had puppies a few days ago. Can't wait to go play with them when they get a little older! Yes. I'm a guy. And I like puppies. Bite me. :P
nastynate 12-28-05, 04:17 PM	In my experience female gamers play the game very much the same as male gamers. I have noticed that men tend to fixate more on min/maxing their builds for efficiency, and women tend to fixate more on background story, but both play the game in a very similar manner. I have all my players work together on their backgrounds and character builds however, to ensure compatability and balance. Thus no particular advantage or disadvantage befalls any of them. When it comes to running the story, I just make sure it has equal parts tactical combat, mystery, mayhem, and intrigue. Everyone seems content. As far as Eberron goes, I havn't noticed any propensity for female players to favor the setting over any other. Anyone who likes Indiana Jones is going to like my game. I try to stay away from any encounters specifically catered to appeal to any particular sex. That could potentially lead to a diminished enjoyment for one or the other. A romantic run in with a handsome stranger, would most likely be boring to the male portion of my group. Likewise a romp through the red light district, is most likely going to be offensive to the female players. Nobody objects to an action packed dungeon crawl however. :D
poeticyde 12-28-05, 04:20 PM	The majority of my playing group are women, and they all love Eberron. They were all sold on the "realism" of a world that would use magic to enhance their daily lives and not just to slaughter enemies, and where there was no standard "villain" race. None of them have expressed a feeling that Eberron was more "guy" orientated; to the contrary, they have all expressed delight that the setting focuses more on plot and character development than on leveling up and getting rich. As far as the violence aspect goes, all the women in my group play the heavy hitters...fighters, barbarians, palladins, etc. All the guys play the clerics, artificiers, sorcerers, rogues, and bards... So my group may not be indicitive of the norm. ;)
nastynate 12-28-05, 05:03 PM	As far as the violence aspect goes, all the women in my group play the heavy hitters...fighters, barbarians, palladins, etc. All the guys play the clerics, artificiers, sorcerers, rogues, and bards... So my group may not be indicitive of the norm. Actually this does often seem to be the norm. I wonder if there is some psychological or sociological implication to this preference. :thinks:
Adhevan 12-28-05, 05:17 PM	As far as Eberron is concerned, I don't think it's the traditional pulp setting that makes it appealing for me. Pulp settings are often VERY stereotypical about women. You're either a babe (please help/rescue me), the amazon type or the evil bi.... That's pretty boring IMO, not to mention simplistic and sexist. The traditional pulp fiction was often a lot less sexist than the cover art would generally make one believe. A few posts back someone mentioned Belit. She didn't fit any of those stereotypes. She was a pirate queen. She wasn't the amazon type, because she didn't actually fight, she just commanded. She didn't fit the babe stereotype, because one can't really lead hardened pirates with a damsel in distress personality. She wasn't an evil bint. She was just a woman with a brain and a strong personality. And this was from the Conan series, and I'm having trouble remembering any cover art from that series that doesn't feature a helpless, buxom, and nearly nude woman.
stembolt 12-28-05, 07:24 PM	And this was from the Conan series, and I'm having trouble remembering any cover art from that series that doesn't feature a helpless, buxom, and nearly nude woman. Actually this is a form of gender blindness itself. The covers do feature mostly unclad babes. They also feature mostly unclad mesomorphs as well. What does this say? People like sexy cover art.
Chiyo 12-29-05, 12:29 AM	Actually this does often seem to be the norm. I wonder if there is some psychological or sociological implication to this preference. :thinks: I don't think so. In my PBEM campaign, the group is fairly balanced and all of them are played by women. In my other regular campaign, I play an artificer and the other woman plays a warmage. I actually don't like too straighforward characters so I'll usually play casters or skill-based classes and not fighter/barbarian types. I don't think there is any gender correlation for class picked. There is maybe a slight gender bias in my (limited) experience on character behavior. Outside of all women gaming group, effective leadership roles and decision makers have often been mostly males. That's subtle though. I'm not sure if it's due to lack of assertiveness from the women, lesser understanding for the game rules leading to less confidence in male-dominated environment or greater care not to hurt anyone's feeling by clashing with their decisions but it seems to be a recurring thing. But again it's based on such a small sample that it could just be the personalities of individual players.
Beleriphon 12-29-05, 01:57 AM	Yes. I'm a guy. And I like puppies. Bite me. :P Nope, your a multiclass fighter/barbarian that also likes icecream with sprinkles.
Beleriphon 12-29-05, 02:05 AM	There is maybe a slight gender bias in my (limited) experience on character behavior. Outside of all women gaming group, effective leadership roles and decision makers have often been mostly males. That's subtle though. I'm not sure if it's due to lack of assertiveness from the women, lesser understanding for the game rules leading to less confidence in male-dominated environment or greater care not to hurt anyone's feeling by clashing with their decisions but it seems to be a recurring thing. But again it's based on such a small sample that it could just be the personalities of individual players. Or as I mentioned earlier (or in another post, or another board somewhere) it could also be a instinctive remenant of our primate ancestors where it was more important for females to no argue with the larger males. It was counter productive to survival. Males on the other hand tend to be more immediately confrontational as it could cause them to assume leadership, and thus breeding rights (again, this is all primatology, and has limited direct implication for humans). Another option is, as mentioned, a certian timidness about not really understanding the rules, and thus not wanting to step forward in case a wrong decision is made, could also lead to not taking on as many leadership roles. As an aside an ex-girlfriend of mine was regaling me with one of her wild Shadowrun adventures where they got a corporate secretary for their bar. This was the crowning achievment, not the big adventure, not the crazy battles, not even the incredible story. No, my ex got herself a secretary and all was well. Not sure if this is relevant, but hey it's still funny.
Kid SixXx 12-29-05, 09:36 AM	She wasn't the amazon type, because she didn't actually fight, she just commanded. I'm gonna need your definition of "didn't fight." ;) In one short story, Belit & Red Sonja crossed swords & fought each other to a standstill before Conan broke up the duel. Belit was so vicious in personal combat that she was worshipped by her some members of her crew as a goddess of death, while Conan was revered as her consort, Amra the Tiger.
Missekat 12-29-05, 12:07 PM	Belit was so vicious in personal combat that she was worshipped by her some members of her crew as a goddess of death, while Conan was revered as her consort, Amra the Tiger. Hm.. Worshipers. Gotta get me some of those :plotting: The "huge buxown chainmailclad"- babes of coverart and.. well - just generally - fantasy art, isn't as big an affront to most women, as many men would think. Of course, I base this on my own reactions + the reactions of all the feamle gamers I know. (About 20). Plus there could be a cultural diffenerence. I'm danish, and so are my friends. We don't make an overly huge fuss about naked people in art. I like the Frank F. art, and most of the other art out there, as long as it is welldrawn. I use it as wallpaper on my PC, I have it on my walls, and I can't really see the problem. These women, (or female elves in some cases), looks a lot more healthy than the models on the front pages of the magazines, and I would rather base my selfimage on these scatily clad babes with their huuuuuge... trackts of land, than on some 13 year old anoretic kid.
Adhevan 12-29-05, 12:49 PM	I'm gonna need your definition of "didn't fight." ;) In one short story, Belit & Red Sonja crossed swords & fought each other to a standstill before Conan broke up the duel. Belit was so vicious in personal combat that she was worshipped by her some members of her crew as a goddess of death, while Conan was revered as her consort, Amra the Tiger. I don't recall a meeting between Belit and Red Sonja, but that's not surprising. There are an insane number of stories in the series. Do you recall the title of the story and which author? Because that one sounds pretty nifty. My strongest recollections about Belit are from the story where she died. And the only combat I can remember her engaging in during that story was after she was already dead.
Kid SixXx 12-29-05, 01:33 PM	Do you recall the title of the story and which author? Because that one sounds pretty nifty. Sadly I don't, although I do have the comic adaptation of the short story somewhere's in my attic. I think the short story was co-authored by Roy Thomas, the guy who ended up bringing Sonja to the comics in the first place. My strongest recollections about Belit are from the story where she died. And the only combat I can remember her engaging in during that story was after she was already dead. Yep. It broke my heart when they used that scenario in the first Conan movie & didn't even attribute it to Belit.
Kid SixXx 12-29-05, 01:44 PM	The "huge buxown chainmailclad"- babes of coverart and.. well - just generally - fantasy art, isn't as big an affront to most women, as many men would think. True, enough. But as a DM I have to figure out who will or won't mind such images & then adjust. Plus there could be a cultural diffenerence. I'm danish, and so are my friends. We don't make an overly huge fuss about naked people in art. Sadly, some Americans can be downright Puritannical, but these folks still like gaming as much as anyone, & I can't very well exclude them from the game over something I can adjust on my end. As a DM, my job is to be mediator as well as storyteller. I like the Frank F. art, and most of the other art out there, as long as it is welldrawn. I use it as wallpaper on my PC, I have it on my walls, and I can't really see the problem. Aie, I hoped I didn't imply that there was a problem. I just stated plainly that Frazetta seems to enjoy drawing women with..... ample dimensions. ;) As I said before, some women may find offense & some may absolutely love the images. It's my job as DM to make sure all of my players, regardless of background, are happy & comfortable with the game as played. These women, (or female elves in some cases), looks a lot more healthy than the models on the front pages of the magazines, and I would rather base my selfimage on these scatily clad babes with their huuuuuge... trackts of land, than on some 13 year old anoretic kid. I tend to agree. I don't find stick figures with poofy lips... er... supermodels terribly attractive. They need to eat double orders of cheese fries with extra gravy.
Missekat 12-29-05, 01:55 PM	I tend to agree. I don't find stick figures with poofy lips... er... supermodels terribly attractive. They need to eat double orders of cheese fries with extra gravy. :w00t: I SO agree! I can see the problem you face as a DM, is far greater than the minor issues I sometimes have to deal with. I'm the only female in my group.. and the DM. Basically I rule by the Law of the Cat: #1 I am cute, thus I am right! #2 If #1 is in any way questioned, the person will either meet pointystabbity pain or find another DM to game with. #3 candy and sweettalk will mellow my decisions towards the giver. Don't take above too seriously :D I feel sorry for you male DM's - and players - who have to tiptoe around people with issues and "views!". I know I might get fried for saying this, but I can't really understand it. The art has been a part of this "culture" for as long as it's been around. And suddenly we all have to pretend it was never there!? "Oh, no. Let's censur away all the eleven babes, because the *insert name religious people who cannot deal with nudity* wants to buy our games. We know they will end up sueing the skin off our noses if we don't!". The rest of the world, (read: Most of little Europe :rolleyes: ), can't help but wonder.
Amara Trapspringer 12-29-05, 02:42 PM	Sorry I haven't been around as much lately, got married and the holidays came up so I've been very short on time. Hope to return soon. The narrative nature of a setting and how it fits with the kinds of stories individual players are looking for has been on my mind lately and in particularly I was wondering how people saw Eberron fitting female gamers overall. If any of you have experiencs with this I'd like to hear about it. My player group has been evenly split between the sexes and is about to have a player shuffle that will mean i have more women players than men. I've adapted story lines to fit the kinds of things my female players are looking (and yes at least in my group there is a difference) for a bit better but was wondering how generally appealing to a female gamer Eberron is "out of the box"? Do you feel you need to adapt the world to appeal to women players a bit better and if so how are you doing it? Just wondering is all since we've a three week break in our campaign and what direction I want our story to take has been on my mind. Being a Female gamer myself, I find Eberron more appealing than Generic D&D. There seems to be much more available to suit everyones needs. I personally enjoy playing Artificers (Changleing, Human, and currently Warforged), but look forward to the chance to play a changeling rogue. There seems to be a little bit of everthing for all gamers, men and women alike. I am one of two females in the same gaming group, and we all seem to enjoy Eberron.
Adhevan 12-29-05, 10:54 PM	"Oh, no. Let's censur away all the eleven babes, because the *insert name religious people who cannot deal with nudity* wants to buy our games. We know they will end up sueing the skin off our noses if we don't!". The religious activists are not as much of an issue in my experience. When they object to fantasy, the nudity is usually so far down on the list of offenses that it gets lost in the shuffle. It's the political correctness extremists that have to be tiptoed around.
Logos7 12-30-05, 01:26 AM	I've always want to talk with other people who had a female dm/ are a female dm. Do you notice that guys have a hard time with your games? I was playing in a game with a female Dm and an All Male playerbase, and it was odd We never did figure out that the city wasn't infested with dopplegangers but a city of dopplegangers and then came the dragons and the giants and yow fastest death ever (She had a loose conceptualization of CR and however fun, their 's only so much you can say about 3 level 7 characters vs adult and older dragons and giants) Just wondering if other people had simular "Gender" misfunctions in gaming (refering to the dopplegangers and not the draogns and the giants) Logos
trashdog 12-30-05, 02:35 AM	Logos, how was the city of doppelgangers a "gender misfunction"? I'm confused. Oh, and as a female DM, no I tend not to have problems with my mostly or all male groups. My first almost-serious attempt at being a DM was for an all male group, with occasional help from my female friends who sorta played NPC's/DMPC's. Which is fun, btw, if you can pull it off. Make up your NPC, give them the role and the sheet, general guidelines, and set 'em loose. It's great if they only want to play a session or two, and not all the time. The only thing I can think of right now is that in my current Eberron game I told the potential players that it would focus on the noir aspects of the setting, with lots of intrigue and politics; however, the group I have seems more interested in action, and the one female player is definetly the most action oriented! So, it looks like I'm picking up Heroes of Horror to shake 'em up a bit. As for the question of women and Eberron, last summer I was set to DM an all-female bounty-hunter party. Unfortunately, we were never able to get everyone together before we all had to venture off to our respective colleges. They all loved the setting for varying reasons. One thing that I noticed about the setting is the gender equality. In the description of Karrnath, note that the draft is for all men and women. One of my players (male) was quite disappointed when he found out that Dol Arrah was female, and that the rules of succession included women, making his sexist Aundarian knight seemed out of place all of a sudden. I don't know really anything about other published settings, but I figure Wizard's would try their best to make them gender equal, yet somehow I think it would come off as fake in most medieval settings. Eberron is post-medieval, even modern to some in sensibilities, so the gender equality makes a lot more sense.
Siran Dunmorgan 12-30-05, 03:30 AM	One thing that I noticed about the setting is the gender equality. In the description of Karrnath, note that the draft is for all men and women. One of my players (male) was quite disappointed when he found out that Dol Arrah was female, and that the rules of succession included women, making his sexist Aundarian knight seemed out of place all of a sudden. I don't know really anything about other published settings, but I figure Wizard's would try their best to make them gender equal, yet somehow I think it would come off as fake in most medieval settings. Eberron is post-medieval, even modern to some in sensibilities, so the gender equality makes a lot more sense. There is another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=560380) addressing questions of sexism in Eberron, and pointing out that most of the major culture-heroes in Eberron are female: Sora Kell, the night hag who some regard as an avatar of the Traveler Aeren, founder of Aerenal[1] Jhazaal Dhakaan, founder of the Dhakaani Empire Erandis d'Vol, who founded the modern Blood of Vol cult Lhazaar, explorer who "discovered" Khorvaire from Sarlona Tira Miron, whose sacrifice founded the Church of the Silver Flame The only male figures from history with even remotely equivalent stature are Karrn the Conqueror and Galifar the First.[2] That thread also provides a rationalization of why the sexism predominant in terrestrial cultures is absent from Eberron. With respect to female players, female players outnumber males in most of my groups roughly 3:1, something that has not been true of my pre-Eberron Dungeons & Dragons groups. I have not inquired as to the cause of this ratio. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] Aeren is described in Magic of Eberron as male, the leader of the rebellion against the giants, and the first Deathless, as well as the founder of Aerenal, contradicting the Eberron Campaign Setting and the Elves of Aerenal dragonshards on all but the last point. When the matter comes up, I describe the Magic of Eberron story as the "penny-dreadful" version written by a human who knew little more of Aeren than her name. The Aereni and the Tairnadal alike roll their eyes—or wince—when they hear this version of the story. [2] The other potent figure of history is the Great Druid Oalian, founder of the Wardens of the Wood and the most potent spell-caster presently known to live on Khorvaire. Oalian is a pine tree, and is therefore simultaneously male and female.
Logos7 12-30-05, 12:19 PM	It's a gender misfunction well becuase i said so that said it was something the group of us guys just couldn't grasp for some reason ( And thus i thought maybe it had something to do with the difference to approach to tasks due to sex) i was wondering if someone else has an experiance like that. Logos
Edymnion 12-30-05, 02:28 PM	Nope, your a multiclass fighter/barbarian that also likes icecream with sprinkles.*hefts his axe* You saying there's something wrong with sprinkles? :D
jonthegm 12-30-05, 02:50 PM	Didn't read the thread. The answer to the OP's question is simple: "Just be a good GM."
Chiyo 12-30-05, 02:58 PM	One thing that I noticed about the setting is the gender equality. In the description of Karrnath, note that the draft is for all men and women. One of my players (male) was quite disappointed when he found out that Dol Arrah was female, and that the rules of succession included women, making his sexist Aundarian knight seemed out of place all of a sudden. I don't know really anything about other published settings, but I figure Wizard's would try their best to make them gender equal, yet somehow I think it would come off as fake in most medieval settings. Eberron is post-medieval, even modern to some in sensibilities, so the gender equality makes a lot more sense. I definitely agree with that. It feels very gender neutral all-around. Not that it's a big distractions in campaigns that are not but it's even less in Eberron. But you have sole rulers being either male or female, heads of dragonmarked houses as well, prominent NPCs of both genders. I didn't even think about it really until this thread started about the issue. But I don't think the lack of gender bias of the setting is really what gets female gamers more into Eberron. One of the things that might work for it is that I think more women accept gaming as a valid hobby than they used to. D&D is still a male-dominated game in numbers but it doesn't feel as much as it used to. That's speaking from someone who has only got introduced to D&D recently (4 years ago) and only recently found enough other women I knew to start a PBEM campaign. With that in mind, Eberron is also a young and new setting so for people like me the meta-game knowledge of the campaign world was not an issue where I felt disadvantaged vs long time gamers (like most in our regular gaming group). I think that made it less intimidating to jump in and play in Eberron than in settings like FR/Greyhawk if that makes sense. That and the feeling that it's less traditional fantasy and more realistic, that it's not all black&white but with shades of grey which for me means more oppoortunity for deeper characters you can relate to, rich PC development, and generally more interesting complex plot-driven stories than simply a series of encounters picked from a table and placed into non-descript generic dungeon rooms. It makes the encounters and fights more meaningful and thus more exciting IMO.
Edymnion 12-30-05, 03:14 PM	yet somehow I think it would come off as fake in most medieval settings.Actually, thats not true. Women had a good deal of equility to men in actual period medieval settings. The idea that women were inferior and needed protecting actually came from Victorian England. There are numerous accounts of period women owning and operating their own businesses, without husbands, and not being considered the least bit strange in doing so. We have even recovered the personal diary of one woman who ran a textile creation business, where she talks about everything from paying the workers to how expensive certain dyes were getting and how she would have to find a differant supplier. True medieval life was hard. You could not afford to religate half your population to second class citizens when they were vitally important to keeping you alive. Its not until later centuries where one could afford to remove women from the workplace that the whole notion of sexism came about. Men may have always been seen as leaders, but the idea that a woman wasn't just as capable of doing the work of a man only appears when there is enough productivity that you can get away with that kind of thought without starving to death. Heck, it wasn't until the later centuries that Mary Magdeline from the Bible was removed from a place of importance as one of the disciples and religated to being a prostitute. History gets rewritten constantly.
Chiyo 12-30-05, 05:00 PM	Actually, thats not true. Women had a good deal of equility to men in actual period medieval settings. The idea that women were inferior and needed protecting actually came from Victorian England. That's not true either. There is plenty of evidence for rise in mysoginy from right after the Gregorian Reform of the 11th century. Given the strong influence of Christianity especially in higher classes and urban environments, that had a very profound effect on social status of women past that point in the middle age and renaissance times. It's definitely not something originating only from the Victorian era even if that period reinforced a vision that had been diminished by the loss of influence of religion in Europe prior to that. For reference, check out Vincent of Beauvais's writing on the issue. Considering he was far from the worst mysogynist of the times (among philosophers), that tells you a lot about how women were seen in those times and how it exemplified their social status in renaissance times.
Missekat 12-30-05, 07:14 PM	Heck, it wasn't until the later centuries that Mary Magdeline from the Bible was removed from a place of importance as one of the disciples and religated to being a prostitute. History gets rewritten constantly. Wow.. I didn't know that! Thank you so much for telling me that. I suddenly feel a lot better about disliking the general "Thoughtpattern" of the Bible.
trashdog 12-30-05, 10:25 PM	Um... without going way off topic, it is only according to tradition that Mary Magdeline is the prostitute that washes Jesus' feet. It's not explicitly stated in the Bible, though, yes, in the councils of Hippo (393 CE) and Carthage (397 CE) and a later council in 419 CE (I don't know the name), books that revealed the importance of women in the early Church were removed since they were not believed to be divinely inspired. Oh, and another little tangent... thank you Edy for your comments in both this and the Sexism thread about women in the medieval period. While what you said was spot on, I'm going to respectfully disagree on one point. Yes, women had some degree of freedom during that period that they lacked in the Victorian era; however, that doesn't mean they were equal to men, especially since they couldn't be leaders and the Victorian era is named for the Queen of England. Then again, we're not exactly equal today. Have we had a woman president here in the good ol' US of A? Oh, and women can't fight on the frontlines (whatever that means) in the US Army. Oh, yeah, and in the Catholic Church, women can't be priests. So, equality in Eberron is far more, well, equal than it is even in modern times. Weird, huh? [/rant] Sorry 'bout that, but I feel it needed to be said.
Korhal_IV 12-31-05, 01:34 PM	Wow.. I didn't know that! Thank you so much for telling me that. I suddenly feel a lot better about disliking the general "Thoughtpattern" of the Bible. Please take it with a grain of salt. While I'd listen to Edy on a lot of game topics, I doubt he can distill several millennia's worth of socio-religio-political struggle into a sentence or two. I strongly advise you research the subject yourself before subscribing to a particular conclusion (particularly one that people who "dislike the general thoughtpattern of the Bible" might be inclined to follow even if the evidence is...less than conclusive).
Missekat 12-31-05, 02:48 PM	;) I take everything in here with a grain of salt.
Ishorn 01-01-06, 08:44 AM	My buddy is getting into Eberron and really wants to play. My problem is that I do not have many other gamer friends and I would like to talk my wife and my friends wife into playing but neither one seem interested. I am hoping that the women reading this post could give me advice as to getting my wife and my friends wife interested in playing.
Missekat 01-01-06, 10:07 AM	I've tried to game with most of my bf's at one time or another, and usually I had to talk them into it, because they weren't gamers. SO one word of advice: 90% of all non gamers, who do not show interest in the game, will not enjoy gaming even if talked into it. I've been so exceptionally lucky that my newest - and hopefully last - bf enjoyed it when he tried it. But he's the only one out of 10 serious relationships, where I've managed to spark this kind of passion. And since he's always been playing online rpg and the like, he wasn't a real non-gamer to begin with. Theres a reason they don't show any interest. But, I understand your desparation, since I've been in the same situation time and time again. How I sparked my bf's interest? I thought about his other hobbies and what he liked about them. And then I incorporated these things into my game. He likes the social chitchat of the online rpg, and the banter over the mic when playing fps'ers online. He's also very competitive, (well duh! He's a guy!). So I started out with a couple of other roleplayers. Only one of which he'd met before, and hit them with the first "competition". The rolling of characters. No point buy for this game. And all were present for the rolls. The moment of "who gets the best char" and the laughter and talk around the table was enough to wet his apetite for another session. And by then I only had to make sure, that these elements would continue to be present in the game. Not that hard :) As for your wife: Does she read books? (This isn't necessary.. my bf doesn't touch books). If she does, read a few of her favorite and try to find out what made them so special to her. Try to incorporate some events that has the same flavour into your game. The asking into her favourite books - or movies - will only make her happy. This shows you have an interest in her ;) Does she like a specific animal? Horses, cats, or wolves? Use this to your advantage. Tell her about shifters, (cats and wolves), or the Valenar, (horses). Is she fond of the old egypt? Scetch out the culture of the Aerenal and the ruins of Xen'drik. Is she one of the few girls with a true liking to mechanical gears or computers. Show her the warforged and the artificer, (I know.. this isn't the same, but it will probably still spark some interest). Show her how the game could have potential to her, and what it contains that compares to her hobbies. I hope this will help you, and that your wife will turn out to be one of the few, like my bf.
Logos7 01-01-06, 01:21 PM	Yes, but you may want to avoid some books for Example Aeren stood there panting the fresh wind caught her hair just as the sea swelled and ... Aernal thought perhaps she should get out of her sodden cloths as she laid eyes on him ... Perhaps later Harolquin Romance is not DnD material (just found the thought/suggestion amusing in places no offence intended) Logos
Missekat 01-01-06, 01:56 PM	*lol* That COULD make for a pretty interesting campaign! :P
Streamweaver 01-01-06, 04:17 PM	Harolquin Romance is not DnD material (just found the thought/suggestion amusing in places no offence intended) This isn't true at all. Romance type stories and settings can very much be a part of the DnD experience. A game that recieved quiet a bit of praise last year, including winning a few Ennies was Blue Rose: The Roleplaying Game of Romantic Fantasy (http://bluerose.greenronin.com/). It's a very interesting implementation of the True D20 system. The whole fantasy genre itself has a strong connection Romantic story telling. This may not be the kind of fantasy DnD was directly inspired by, and the mind may not go there immediatly when you talk about DnD but it is done successfuly already.
Streamweaver 01-01-06, 04:54 PM	My buddy is getting into Eberron and really wants to play. My problem is that I do not have many other gamer friends and I would like to talk my wife and my friends wife into playing but neither one seem interested. I am hoping that the women reading this post could give me advice as to getting my wife and my friends wife interested in playing. Well as Missekat says it may be that these people just wont enjoy gaming at all, many people don't and it probably wouldn't end well if you tried to make them. If they are honestly thinking about it try a few things: 1. Don't try to get them invoved in a campaign right away, just ask them if they'll play a one shot session you prepared for some fun. Some folks are scared away by a regular committment and so forth. 2. Don't plan on a 4 hour session, try for 2 hours or so and let them know it wont really run over that. Another daunting aspect of gaming for many people is not only meeting for a regular campaign, but the amount of time a normal session can last. Normally you have to pay someone to stay in one place for the length of time asked by a game session, don't lead off with that. 3. Keep it fun an light, and don't make the session to be the make or break of a hope that they will game. Just let them see if they like it.
sooperspook 01-01-06, 08:02 PM	Then again, we're not exactly equal today. Have we had a woman president here in the good ol' US of A? Oh, and women can't fight on the frontlines (whatever that means) in the US Army. Oh, yeah, and in the Catholic Church, women can't be priests. So, equality in Eberron is far more, well, equal than it is even in modern times. Weird, huh? [/rant] I'd say equality today is still more than medieval times. Iran, India, Uk, New Zealand have all had elected female leaders. The Anglican church ordaines women priests. Not sure about women fightin on the front but i beleive here in Australia its allowed.
Calibim 01-02-06, 10:39 AM	Oh, and another little tangent... thank you Edy for your comments in both this and the Sexism thread about women in the medieval period. While what you said was spot on, I'm going to respectfully disagree on one point. Yes, women had some degree of freedom during that period that they lacked in the Victorian era; however, that doesn't mean they were equal to men, especially since they couldn't be leaders and the Victorian era is named for the Queen of England. Then again, we're not exactly equal today. Have we had a woman president here in the good ol' US of A? Oh, and women can't fight on the frontlines (whatever that means) in the US Army. Oh, yeah, and in the Catholic Church, women can't be priests. So, equality in Eberron is far more, well, equal than it is even in modern times. Weird, huh? [/rant] I know this is off topic but one of the reasons that we have not had a female Prez here in teh US is because she could not garner the votes. Even women will not vote for someone just cause they are female. In fact since women make up a large block of voting power you would think a women runing for PRez would have a good chance. This is not the case as given the choice there are a lot of females that would not vote for a female canidate just cause she is a women. It's the same reason I won't vote for a Prez or other elected official just cause he is black (which I am). I vote for people who I feel can do the job. And only recently have we had women that are looking towards being Prez not out of a "because you said I can't" mind set, but from a "Because I feel I can help this country prosper" mind set. A lot of what goes on as far as equality is concerned is done for the wrong reason, i think. Do you want to fight on the front lines because someone said you couldn’t or because you wanna fight on the front line and protect your country. See, the reasons for doing something are just as important, IMO, as the act. This holds true whether in Eberron or in our own world.
Lurkalot 01-02-06, 01:51 PM	I've come late to this thread (and incidentally am Male). I think that relying on generalisations is bad, but if I had to make one, it would be that female gamers are less interested in numbers. A certain sort of person loves crunching numbers almost for their own sake - working out which feat will increase average damage the most, gaining +1 Strength etc. This sort of enjoyment I've noticed more commonly with men than with women. So to appeal to people that don't have this passion (whether male or female), just make darn sure that there is plenty more to the game than that.
LuciferNietzsche 01-03-06, 04:16 AM	Well, I personally would have to say that female players probably want what any player wants...to have fun. I don't really believe there's much of a gender issue because gamers are not stereotypical members of society to begin with. There might be leanings one way or another with each gender, but I doubt it matters. On another note, I can't speak from experience because where I live, there aren't even a miniscule handful of female players, and barely more good players in general... That's probably due to the lack of decent DMs within several hundred miles...but anyway... There are quite a few male players...they're just mostly stupid. But there are practically no female players at all around here. That annoys me to no end, because guys just won't play female characters...and sometimes a party just needs a woman's touch. Case in point...Polgara the Sorceress...'nuff said. On the subject of equality... We'll put aside gender for the moment. Is a man with a frail body but an IQ in the 200s superior to a man with an IQ of 90 but enourmous physical talents...both dextrous and strength-wise? No. Niether is superior, just different. People tend to confuse equality with similarity. Some people are good at some things, other people are good at other things. But, that's not always true. There are a very few who're good at everything...or more than most at least...and those who are good for absolutely nothing. In general, a few of one's talents can be affected by factors associated with heritage... That doesn't mean any one group is superior to another. It might seem obvious to some of us who see the world in a different way because of this game we all share, but the vast majority of people don't get it...and don't want to either. Because it would mean that some of them genuinely have no shot at all regarding something they happen to want. On the subject of men being required to automatically know what a woman wants... It's true...it's SO true... But, even though I almost always know what they want me to know, I present them with no option but to tell me anyway, because I don't play games like that. I don't go for the whole, "Leave me alone, I'm leaving = Follow me and hug me to prove you care," thing...it's childish nonsense, and it disgusts me. Now, when a child does it, I cut em some slack, they're a child. But if an adult does that crap...the gloves come off. To end on a positive note... Congrats...very, very late congrats...on the marriage. Blessings of happiness and good fortune for you both.
LordofIllusions 01-03-06, 09:53 AM	Do you feel you need to adapt the world to appeal to women players a bit better and if so how are you doing it? No. Treat all players equally, noone should get special treatment. Focus on making a good game, not on singling out a gender and catering to them. ~~~
Streamweaver 01-03-06, 11:16 AM	No. Treat all players equally, noone should get special treatment. Focus on making a good game, not on singling out a gender and catering to them.\ Since someone is actually getting back to the topic I'll chime back in. What a strange thing to say LoI, this has nothing to do with special treatment and everything to do with GMs being aware of their players and tastes. Part of making a good game is knowing where your player interests lie, knowing the strenghts and weakness of a setting and so forth. As I said earlier in the thread my own game is fine, my players are happy and I understand them well. The issue is Eberron as a pulp setting and the general appeal of pulp settings and stories to female players. If you're take on it is that there is no difference between male and female interest in pulp settings then there isn't much common ground for a discussion. I suppose this is the inherant reason topics like this are difficult to discuss on public forums. People who don't get it don't understand they're missing something, to them the entire topic doesn't even exist. Shame that.
LordofIllusions 01-03-06, 12:15 PM	Since someone is actually getting back to the topic I'll chime back in. What a strange thing to say LoI, this has nothing to do with special treatment and everything to do with GMs being aware of their players and tastes. Part of making a good game is knowing where your player interests lie, knowing the strenghts and weakness of a setting and so forth. Actually the thread focuses mainly on being aware of women's tastes, as if all women are the same(i.e. saying all women like games made this way, and all men like games made that way. A moron's reasoning). LoL! I see no difference between a female gamer's taste and a male gamer's taste, to me a gamer is a gamer; it depends on the individual, not the individuals' gender. Now some female gamers may like combat, and some male gamers may like stories, or vice versa. This has nothing to do with gender, rather the individuality of that particular player, and the history of his, or her, playing experiences, among other things. IN CLOSING: Of course there will be some small-minded individual, or some militant who wants to bring the whole gender issue to the DnD boards at sometime or another, as has been done here on this thread. I have seen this done time and time again, its old and quite silly. Thank you for your time. ~~~