Firearms, how much is to much.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Firearms, how much is to much.... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hideous Phidias
12-27-06, 10:10 PM I have a friend who wants to DM the next game, he wants to allow firearms into the game. Now, I was never one for firearms in Dungeons and Dragons, but I am open to most things. I never liked d20 modern and hated playing in the one gamewe tried. It was not the guns I think. Any ways He said that we were going to have a city campaign and that guns would befound with in it. SoI readover the rules out of the DMG for Ren. weapons The single shot pistols and rifles look powerful but that is at acost. It is payed for with time, the time need to reload. this makes them no more powerful then a heavy or great crossbow. So I thought I could deal with this, infact I even got in to the spirit of the campaign and made an artificer that used to pistols alone with scrolls.

The thing now is the DM wants to bring in revolvers and make the guns cheaper then listed in the books. I tried to tell him that it was to much, but he argued that it was not and this way a first level character could have a firearm. He is not seeing that he is unbalancing the system. I say firearms if any are ment to be weeled a character with at least three levels. Not by any tard that is willing going to killing spry.

My point is firearms are a product of tech not magic,thus in aworld ofmagic the firearm should be more rare then he wants. Also adding in revolvers that everyone can get for a few hundred gold makes most other weapons a poor chose. Why use a long sword when you can pull out a revolver and blast away doing a d10 damage. It just seems to take the fun out of it.

So what do you guys think about guns in eberron and more so revolvers?
mhacdebhandia
12-27-06, 10:56 PM I think using guns in Eberron misses the point: their "technology level" is not derived from steam power and science, it's derived from magic. There's no reason why wizards or artificers or magewrights would be trying to make something like a gun; people in Eberron just don't think along the lines of inquiry which would lead to the discovery of gunpowder. They don't make tanks and engines, they make warforged. They don't make guns, they make wands.

Quite apart from that - after all, there's nothing wrong with your DM adding firearms to Eberron if it's important to him - the scenario you describe sounds unbalanced to me. If a first-level character can buy a revolver after one or two adventures, he'll be shooting down opponents much more easily than he should be able to.
Shady314
12-27-06, 11:02 PM What can you do? This is how DMs learn. Though god help you if he likes what it does. Then you'll just have to move along or never let him DM.

You could try scaring him away from it. Point out a change like that alters the entire setting and then ask him if he is willing to rewrite the ECS taking his changes into account and cross your fingers. ;) It's just common sense you don't change rules till you've played the regular rules and understand them.
ArcTan
12-28-06, 12:33 AM If he wants Eberron to become a world that's entered the Age of Gunpowder, so be it. Then he deals with the consequences of a world where, indeed, every warrior reaches for a gun first and foremost and only carries the traditional D&D melee weapons for backup, and bullets fly in most encounters, and damage comes faster and more furious than he expects.

Sure, this may not be an intended consequence of his choice to add cheap firearms to the game, but it's one he'll have to deal with regardless. Just roll with it -- as long as he deals with the consequences fairly, world changes like this (less magic, more gunpowder, whatever) are fair game for any DM.
Hideous Phidias
12-28-06, 12:54 AM the thingisI like the iddea of the city campaign and I dont want it to die because of a few bad ideas. If I sit back and watch the campaign go to hell But is the what fun of that? What is the point?
ressurrector
12-28-06, 04:21 AM I've had the inspired use large cannons as anti-ship weaponry, but hand portable firearms are much more technologically advanced.

The big issue with the firearms in D&D and d20 is that a single hit can easily kill a lower level character.
The cost helps prevent these from being used under a certain level.
d20 further balances the inherant lethality by the defence bonus system.

You should point out the damage listed, and suggest he allow you to start out at higher level, so as not to get killed with a headshot in the first combat.

By the way: protection from arrows is your friend (it affects vs all ranged weaponry)
The White Sorcerer
12-28-06, 07:37 AM The big issue with the firearms in D&D and d20 is that a single hit can easily kill a lower level character.

Just like swords and bows.
goblin_pride
12-28-06, 09:27 AM So what do you guys think about guns in eberron and more so revolvers?

Personally, I never allow anything more portable than a Bombard and I usually make those so touchy that using them is as much a risk to the firer as the target.
UliahHafengrim
12-28-06, 10:44 AM The Iron Kingdoms is built around a "steampunk" theme and they handle firearms rather well, as the setting is balanced around a magic/technological theme. Usage of a gun requires the Exotic Proficiency Feat (firearms) as well as ranks in Craft (small arms), as a skill check is required to reload any firearm. On top of that, only the more "martial" classes have Craft (small arms) as a class skill.

Additionally, some guns are more difficult to load or take longer to load. At the minimum it takes 1 standard action to load a pistol, 2 standard actions to load a rifle. Damage on these weapons ranges from a 2d3 small pistol to a 2d8+2 heavy military rifle, so they aren't really "overpowered", considering their drawbacks.

With mechanics out of the way, there is the cost and supply issues involved. Within the Iron Kingdoms, depending on the GM, supply isn't always constant. During wartime (which is pretty much constant in the IK), most ammo supplies are requisitioned for war. On top of that, because production is expensive, ammunition is expensive. For even the simplest of pistols, ammunition is at least 5 gold per shot, with the high-end military-sniper-type rifles costing upwards of 16-18 gold per shot.

Beyond the initial cost of the firearm (which is a minimum of a few hundred gold for the simplest gun), there's the cost of ammo and maintenance.

If someone REALLY wants to do guns, there are definitely balanced ways of including them in a setting. The question is of flavor. I've personally thought about introducing "black powder" or firearms of some kind into Eberron as a long, ongoing campaign arc, but couldn't find any way of really integrating them well.

If anything, guns would be a powerful sidearm that can be used in addition to a normal weapon. Fire off your one shot and then pull out your melee weapon. See Pirates of the Caribbean: they weren't exactly wading through spent shell casings or anything. It was usually fire a few shots from whatever guns you had with you then go into hand-to-hand combat.

Also, if you've ever read the Guardians of the Flame series (a low-magic, low-fantasy novel series where people from the Real World get trapped in their own 'D&D' world and end up introducing firearms, democracy, and other fun stuff), guns can have a huge impact on a society.

It sounds like this DM just really likes guns and is going to include them anywhere without really trying to have it make any sense. You can either take advantage of that and try and powergame the rules in such a way as to discourage his DM choices or you can completely ignore what he's doing and make a traditional character that has great defenses against guns or can somehow otherwise shut them down.

If this DM ends up having an NPC that dual-wields guns and is cooler than the PCs, I say you back away from the table slowly, gather your dice and flee.
Lokiyn
12-28-06, 03:05 PM Soarwood Dust.

Obviously Soarwood takes enchantments very very well.

So take a gnome with Soarwood Sawdust, Add in a little ground eberron dragonshard. Toss in a pyrotechnics spell on the gun itself and you're good to go.

Its an experiment that proved too costly for general use but the gnomes who worked on the project still make a few for novelty purposes.
ressurrector
12-28-06, 04:28 PM Just like swords and bows.

Never mind, I was thinking of D20 firearms damage I think.

so, what's so wrong with a 1d8 1-handed 50' range weapon which must be reloaded after 6 shots?
Similar to a repeating crossbow if you require an EWP for it. (and if the pistols are not double-action revolvers or automatics it does require two hands to take davantage of multiple loads. Cowboy guns were not double-action, one hand "fanned" the hammer)
Kreistor2
12-28-06, 08:58 PM The solution to guns in fantasy settings is to not call them guns. Base them on magic or alchemy and make them look different, sound different...

In Eberron, the easiest way to justify a gun-like weapon is to use the Elemental Binding concept. If the weapon has a bound elemental spitting fire damage instead of lead, well, no one is really going to have much to complain about.
Neofish
12-29-06, 02:12 AM The solution to guns in fantasy settings is to not call them guns. Base them on magic or alchemy and make them look different, sound different...

In Eberron, the easiest way to justify a gun-like weapon is to use the Elemental Binding concept. If the weapon has a bound elemental spitting fire damage instead of lead, well, no one is really going to have much to complain about.

wind elemental bound in a metal tube that spews sling shots. I guess it works for fire elementals aswell.
MartM
12-29-06, 02:29 AM wind elemental bound in a metal tube that spews sling shots. I guess it works for fire elementals aswell.

Hey! I'm against firearms in D&D.. But that elemental-bound blowgun is nice!
Wolfen Fenrison
12-29-06, 01:17 PM To answer your question and keep related to WotC products if your DM insists on using guns and/or cannons he will want d20 Past, it is a supplement to d20 Modern and contains rules muzzle loading guns, percussion cap revolvers and cannons of all sizes, the Personal Firearms Proficiency and related feats can be found in the MSRD.

A simple wealth to GP conversion guide

Wheel Lock purchase DC X10

Matchlock purchase DC +3 X10

Flintlock purchase DC +5 X10

Percussion Cap purchase DC +10 x10

Cartridge purchase DC +15 X10 (very rare, should be MWK only)

Modern Firearms purchase DC +20 X10 (unique, commisioned only, should be MWK or magic)

AMMO:

Early and Flintlock ammo purchase DC x10

Percussion Cap ammo purchase DC +10 x10

Cartridge ammo purchase DC +15 x10

Modern firearms ammo purchase DC +20 x10

Cannons:

Cannon purchase DC +5 X10

Cannon ammo purchase DC +5 x10

hope that helps

all and all it should be balanced as it requires one feat to use guns a another one to use them with a decent reload time.
ArcTan
12-30-06, 04:14 PM The solution to guns in fantasy settings is to not call them guns. Base them on magic or alchemy and make them look different, sound different...

Bah. That's all flavor prejudice.

Does it hurt a fantasy setting to have crossbows that look and sound like real-life crossbows? Then what's the big deal with guns?
mhacdebhandia
12-30-06, 07:00 PM Well, you know, crossbows are a lot older than firearms. For some people, that matters.
Knightstar
12-31-06, 12:31 AM Well, you know, crossbows are a lot older than firearms. For some people, that matters.

true enough, but aside from the post war attitude of Eberron. if it's pulpy enough (and from time to time in sharn has a somewhat jules verne/victorian feel to it... at least from my POV), i dont see why you couldnt add firearms to the setting.

if they gripe too much, note that firearms have been bopping around since the late 1400s or so in Europe, and good 500 years before that in China. But thats me.
The White Sorcerer
12-31-06, 06:02 AM Well, you know, crossbows are a lot older than firearms. For some people, that matters.

Well, you know, longswords are a lot older than rapiers. This doesn't seem to matter to anyone.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hideous Phidias 12-27-06, 10:10 PM	I have a friend who wants to DM the next game, he wants to allow firearms into the game. Now, I was never one for firearms in Dungeons and Dragons, but I am open to most things. I never liked d20 modern and hated playing in the one gamewe tried. It was not the guns I think. Any ways He said that we were going to have a city campaign and that guns would befound with in it. SoI readover the rules out of the DMG for Ren. weapons The single shot pistols and rifles look powerful but that is at acost. It is payed for with time, the time need to reload. this makes them no more powerful then a heavy or great crossbow. So I thought I could deal with this, infact I even got in to the spirit of the campaign and made an artificer that used to pistols alone with scrolls. The thing now is the DM wants to bring in revolvers and make the guns cheaper then listed in the books. I tried to tell him that it was to much, but he argued that it was not and this way a first level character could have a firearm. He is not seeing that he is unbalancing the system. I say firearms if any are ment to be weeled a character with at least three levels. Not by any tard that is willing going to killing spry. My point is firearms are a product of tech not magic,thus in aworld ofmagic the firearm should be more rare then he wants. Also adding in revolvers that everyone can get for a few hundred gold makes most other weapons a poor chose. Why use a long sword when you can pull out a revolver and blast away doing a d10 damage. It just seems to take the fun out of it. So what do you guys think about guns in eberron and more so revolvers?
mhacdebhandia 12-27-06, 10:56 PM	I think using guns in Eberron misses the point: their "technology level" is not derived from steam power and science, it's derived from magic. There's no reason why wizards or artificers or magewrights would be trying to make something like a gun; people in Eberron just don't think along the lines of inquiry which would lead to the discovery of gunpowder. They don't make tanks and engines, they make warforged. They don't make guns, they make wands. Quite apart from that - after all, there's nothing wrong with your DM adding firearms to Eberron if it's important to him - the scenario you describe sounds unbalanced to me. If a first-level character can buy a revolver after one or two adventures, he'll be shooting down opponents much more easily than he should be able to.
Shady314 12-27-06, 11:02 PM	What can you do? This is how DMs learn. Though god help you if he likes what it does. Then you'll just have to move along or never let him DM. You could try scaring him away from it. Point out a change like that alters the entire setting and then ask him if he is willing to rewrite the ECS taking his changes into account and cross your fingers. ;) It's just common sense you don't change rules till you've played the regular rules and understand them.
ArcTan 12-28-06, 12:33 AM	If he wants Eberron to become a world that's entered the Age of Gunpowder, so be it. Then he deals with the consequences of a world where, indeed, every warrior reaches for a gun first and foremost and only carries the traditional D&D melee weapons for backup, and bullets fly in most encounters, and damage comes faster and more furious than he expects. Sure, this may not be an intended consequence of his choice to add cheap firearms to the game, but it's one he'll have to deal with regardless. Just roll with it -- as long as he deals with the consequences fairly, world changes like this (less magic, more gunpowder, whatever) are fair game for any DM.
Hideous Phidias 12-28-06, 12:54 AM	the thingisI like the iddea of the city campaign and I dont want it to die because of a few bad ideas. If I sit back and watch the campaign go to hell But is the what fun of that? What is the point?
ressurrector 12-28-06, 04:21 AM	I've had the inspired use large cannons as anti-ship weaponry, but hand portable firearms are much more technologically advanced. The big issue with the firearms in D&D and d20 is that a single hit can easily kill a lower level character. The cost helps prevent these from being used under a certain level. d20 further balances the inherant lethality by the defence bonus system. You should point out the damage listed, and suggest he allow you to start out at higher level, so as not to get killed with a headshot in the first combat. By the way: protection from arrows is your friend (it affects vs all ranged weaponry)
The White Sorcerer 12-28-06, 07:37 AM	The big issue with the firearms in D&D and d20 is that a single hit can easily kill a lower level character. Just like swords and bows.
goblin_pride 12-28-06, 09:27 AM	So what do you guys think about guns in eberron and more so revolvers? Personally, I never allow anything more portable than a Bombard and I usually make those so touchy that using them is as much a risk to the firer as the target.
UliahHafengrim 12-28-06, 10:44 AM	The Iron Kingdoms is built around a "steampunk" theme and they handle firearms rather well, as the setting is balanced around a magic/technological theme. Usage of a gun requires the Exotic Proficiency Feat (firearms) as well as ranks in Craft (small arms), as a skill check is required to reload any firearm. On top of that, only the more "martial" classes have Craft (small arms) as a class skill. Additionally, some guns are more difficult to load or take longer to load. At the minimum it takes 1 standard action to load a pistol, 2 standard actions to load a rifle. Damage on these weapons ranges from a 2d3 small pistol to a 2d8+2 heavy military rifle, so they aren't really "overpowered", considering their drawbacks. With mechanics out of the way, there is the cost and supply issues involved. Within the Iron Kingdoms, depending on the GM, supply isn't always constant. During wartime (which is pretty much constant in the IK), most ammo supplies are requisitioned for war. On top of that, because production is expensive, ammunition is expensive. For even the simplest of pistols, ammunition is at least 5 gold per shot, with the high-end military-sniper-type rifles costing upwards of 16-18 gold per shot. Beyond the initial cost of the firearm (which is a minimum of a few hundred gold for the simplest gun), there's the cost of ammo and maintenance. If someone REALLY wants to do guns, there are definitely balanced ways of including them in a setting. The question is of flavor. I've personally thought about introducing "black powder" or firearms of some kind into Eberron as a long, ongoing campaign arc, but couldn't find any way of really integrating them well. If anything, guns would be a powerful sidearm that can be used in addition to a normal weapon. Fire off your one shot and then pull out your melee weapon. See Pirates of the Caribbean: they weren't exactly wading through spent shell casings or anything. It was usually fire a few shots from whatever guns you had with you then go into hand-to-hand combat. Also, if you've ever read the Guardians of the Flame series (a low-magic, low-fantasy novel series where people from the Real World get trapped in their own 'D&D' world and end up introducing firearms, democracy, and other fun stuff), guns can have a huge impact on a society. It sounds like this DM just really likes guns and is going to include them anywhere without really trying to have it make any sense. You can either take advantage of that and try and powergame the rules in such a way as to discourage his DM choices or you can completely ignore what he's doing and make a traditional character that has great defenses against guns or can somehow otherwise shut them down. If this DM ends up having an NPC that dual-wields guns and is cooler than the PCs, I say you back away from the table slowly, gather your dice and flee.
Lokiyn 12-28-06, 03:05 PM	Soarwood Dust. Obviously Soarwood takes enchantments very very well. So take a gnome with Soarwood Sawdust, Add in a little ground eberron dragonshard. Toss in a pyrotechnics spell on the gun itself and you're good to go. Its an experiment that proved too costly for general use but the gnomes who worked on the project still make a few for novelty purposes.
ressurrector 12-28-06, 04:28 PM	Just like swords and bows. Never mind, I was thinking of D20 firearms damage I think. so, what's so wrong with a 1d8 1-handed 50' range weapon which must be reloaded after 6 shots? Similar to a repeating crossbow if you require an EWP for it. (and if the pistols are not double-action revolvers or automatics it does require two hands to take davantage of multiple loads. Cowboy guns were not double-action, one hand "fanned" the hammer)
Kreistor2 12-28-06, 08:58 PM	The solution to guns in fantasy settings is to not call them guns. Base them on magic or alchemy and make them look different, sound different... In Eberron, the easiest way to justify a gun-like weapon is to use the Elemental Binding concept. If the weapon has a bound elemental spitting fire damage instead of lead, well, no one is really going to have much to complain about.
Neofish 12-29-06, 02:12 AM	The solution to guns in fantasy settings is to not call them guns. Base them on magic or alchemy and make them look different, sound different... In Eberron, the easiest way to justify a gun-like weapon is to use the Elemental Binding concept. If the weapon has a bound elemental spitting fire damage instead of lead, well, no one is really going to have much to complain about. wind elemental bound in a metal tube that spews sling shots. I guess it works for fire elementals aswell.
MartM 12-29-06, 02:29 AM	wind elemental bound in a metal tube that spews sling shots. I guess it works for fire elementals aswell. Hey! I'm against firearms in D&D.. But that elemental-bound blowgun is nice!
Wolfen Fenrison 12-29-06, 01:17 PM	To answer your question and keep related to WotC products if your DM insists on using guns and/or cannons he will want d20 Past, it is a supplement to d20 Modern and contains rules muzzle loading guns, percussion cap revolvers and cannons of all sizes, the Personal Firearms Proficiency and related feats can be found in the MSRD. A simple wealth to GP conversion guide Wheel Lock purchase DC X10 Matchlock purchase DC +3 X10 Flintlock purchase DC +5 X10 Percussion Cap purchase DC +10 x10 Cartridge purchase DC +15 X10 (very rare, should be MWK only) Modern Firearms purchase DC +20 X10 (unique, commisioned only, should be MWK or magic) AMMO: Early and Flintlock ammo purchase DC x10 Percussion Cap ammo purchase DC +10 x10 Cartridge ammo purchase DC +15 x10 Modern firearms ammo purchase DC +20 x10 Cannons: Cannon purchase DC +5 X10 Cannon ammo purchase DC +5 x10 hope that helps all and all it should be balanced as it requires one feat to use guns a another one to use them with a decent reload time.
ArcTan 12-30-06, 04:14 PM	The solution to guns in fantasy settings is to not call them guns. Base them on magic or alchemy and make them look different, sound different... Bah. That's all flavor prejudice. Does it hurt a fantasy setting to have crossbows that look and sound like real-life crossbows? Then what's the big deal with guns?
mhacdebhandia 12-30-06, 07:00 PM	Well, you know, crossbows are a lot older than firearms. For some people, that matters.
Knightstar 12-31-06, 12:31 AM	Well, you know, crossbows are a lot older than firearms. For some people, that matters. true enough, but aside from the post war attitude of Eberron. if it's pulpy enough (and from time to time in sharn has a somewhat jules verne/victorian feel to it... at least from my POV), i dont see why you couldnt add firearms to the setting. if they gripe too much, note that firearms have been bopping around since the late 1400s or so in Europe, and good 500 years before that in China. But thats me.
The White Sorcerer 12-31-06, 06:02 AM	Well, you know, crossbows are a lot older than firearms. For some people, that matters. Well, you know, longswords are a lot older than rapiers. This doesn't seem to matter to anyone.