Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 08-12-05, 02:45 PM	I've heard some complaints about this book and I was curious if we could do a thread about what we liked and what we didn't about the work honestly. I liked the book overall but I'm honestly reminded of the Gazeteers of The Kargatane that were published by White Wolf (which is a good thing). The works reminded me of that but too much space was taken up by monsters and prestige classes that interrupted the flow of the book and description of the nations. They should have been in an appendix in the back of the book and I would have deleted the monsters entirely for more info about the Five Nations. Maybe inserting a "Old Galifar was like this..." section
polt 08-12-05, 03:22 PM	The thing about this book I didn't like: The layout of the nations' description varied from chapter to chapter, bad! Jorasco healer with the ability to ressurect! Get him out of there! No need high lvl for Auralas brother and the bard in Fairhaven, it didn't make sense. Most of the random-encounter tables were stupid, overpowered and/or lame. Some pretty useless descriptions of smaller villages and cities, especially in the Breland chapter. The Dark Lantern prestige class. Boooooriiiing. Some of the attitudes towards other nations seemed a bit weird, or even varied. What I DID like: Almost everything about the nations, great. The PrCs and the monsters. The small stuff like, "What every Brelander knows" and stuff like that. The amazing art.
Psymnotica 08-12-05, 03:39 PM	The Nations I found the Aundair section to be good in flavor, but the inconsistencies with the ECS, along with the one to two page descriptions of specific sites (as compared to the general overview I was hoping for) left me a little cold to this chapter. I was fairly disappointed that the Knights Arcane were barely mentioned. The Breland chapter I really liked, but the Yarkuun Draal section bugged me for some reason. Other than that, I thought that the chapter was what Aundair should have been more like, and it set the standard for how I judged the rest of the book. The Cyre chapter was excellent also, but I wish we got more on the nation before the Mourning. The descriptions of what some witnesses saw on the day of Mourning really solidified the event in my mind. The Karrnath chapter was okay, but I was left wanting more, like what the authors did in the Breland chapter. The Code of Kaius would have been nice to have been included, along with a description of a few more of the other cities besides Korth, as well as some more descriptions of the countryside and environs of Karrnath. Rekkenmark wasn't bad, and some of the story/adventure seeds were excellent. Thrane really bored me for some reason. I'll have to go re-read it to give an honest accounting of it, but I don't remember much that stood out in my mind. The Prestige Classes The Knight Phantom is, in my opinion, an excellent concept, but a few of the mechanics left me worried that it hadn't been play tested. The Dark Lantern is also an excellent concept, but unlike the Knight Phantom, the mechanics look balanced and make sense. The Cyran Avenger is possibly my favorite of the prestige classes, as it is highly personalized to each players character, and, again, mechanistically, looks sound. The Bone Knight I have serious problems with. Too numerous to mention, but I will never allow a PC (or even an NPC) to use this prestige class. While the concept is sound (A divine knight who uses necromancy to help win against his nation's enemies), the mechanics are so wacky and broken that I can't help but think CHEESE MONKEY! The Silver Pyromancer is another prestige class I am not overly fond of, since it was pointed out on these boards that at 2nd level you can lace your fire spells (arcane or divine) with "sacred energy" that is not subject to fire-resistance. In fact, as far as I know, there is no "sacred energy resistance" spell or spell-like ability in the game. Just this one facet of the prestige class makes me feel it is overpowered, and combines some of the worst elements of an arcane user with a divine user. Monsters Dragonhawk: Not bad, adds some color and is an interesting encounter. Nothing spectacular, but useful. Magebred Brown Bear: Did we really need this? I mean, c'mon, we have the rules for creating magebred animals, which isn't that hard to do. Magebred Ghost Tiger: Again, while the flavor is nice, did we really need this? Mourner: Couldn't we have just used a weak ghost for this creature? Maybe just made the Aura of Doom or the Wail of Anguish as supernatural abilities that are now available to ghosts. Shroud of Death & Despair: Nice and nasty. Another good living spell. Steel Kraken: I was begining to wonder if House Cannith had forgotten about nautical constructs. Not bad. Karrnathi Bulette: Again, do we need the rehashing of canonical monsters with just a minor twist? And do we need it to take up half a page? Madborn: An interesting, if a little blah. Nothing spectacular. Skaravojen: Strange, not something I would have ever imagined the Keeper to have protecting her, but interesting nonetheless. Silvereye Marauder: Interesting that Cannith aren't the only people on the block creating constructs. Still, it's pretty nasty and not something I'd throw up against a party until they were at least 7th level. Wingwyrd: Again, the old hat moster with a twist. Still, it's not a bad one. I'd use them. Overall, I give it 3 1/2 stars out of 5. For DM's interested in running an Eberron campaign, I'm not going to say it's invaluable, but I will say it is useful.
Charles Phipps 08-12-05, 04:17 PM	I loved the book as I mentioned but I think that in addition to too many monsters we also had some crimminal omissions. The Knights of Thrane The Order of the Pure The Knights Arcane (as mentioned) and really speaking, more detail about the various lack of estates in Breeland and other nations (only Aundair got a mention) from nobles killed would have been welcome. I *HATED* the Cyrean avenger, it's like....this is a concept, not a class. I also hated the Dark Lanterns. They already have the King's Citadel and the idea that the monarchy doesn't trust them ruins them as a class. They should be James freaking bond! I didn't have a problem with the high level Bard, he was clearly an important person In Fairhaven and a revolutionary leader. DOWN WITH THE QUEEN. Also, House Jorasco has ressurection tables, so the complaints about what people WANT Eberron to be vs. what it is isn't one I can go along with. I did love the Paladin in love with the queen though, an inspired plotpoint.
polt 08-12-05, 07:25 PM	One thing I missed a lot from the book was description of how the nation looks like. What you might see when travelling through the countryside of Aundair or the tough winter landscapes of Karrnath.
a_psh 08-12-05, 11:07 PM	Section-by-section, though it's kind of random. Aundair The Good: I rather liked the spy-games stuff. Aurala, her son, the Royal Eyes - I thought they were all pretty nifty. Particularly the flashy fighting style suggested for Aundarian characters (I think it was mentioned specifically with regard to the Royal Eyes). I think it may have one too many effective caster levels, but Knight Phantom is pretty badass. The dragonhawk was a nice basic monster, too, I think. The Bad: Too much about adventure locations, way too little about, y'know, the actual geography. I feel like Arcanix was kind of botched: too high-level, too magical, too silly - generally, it felt like an extra-campy cross between Hogwarts and the Tower of High Sorcery (or is that Towers? I forget), complete with fun-house hallways, high-level encounters just roaming the halls, all sorts of random magical crap strewn about, and a hoakey maze for newbies to play in. The woods and the Crying Fields weren't terrible or anything, but nothing particularly interesting. And this was bad, becaus,e mostly, I really just wanted there to be information about the nation, and there kind of wasn't. Breland The Good: Most of this chapter was great. The location descriptions were nifty. I'd much rather have these than encounter tables and detailed write-ups. Much more adaptable and, really, there's just more of them. They're what a country book should have in every chapter. Tons of hooks of all different kinds that can be developed, and a decent sense of what the whole country is like. The Bad: I think the Dark Lantern was a poor choice: it's a Citadel-specific PrC that's much more specific and a lot less interesting than the Elite, packed with abilities that all already exist elsewhere. A lot of rogue levels and some simple judicious multiclassing can give you *everything* that the Dark Lantern has, and the Citadel Elite is a much more flavor-ful set of abilities than the Dark Lantern. I also agree that the daelkyr in the ruins felt kind of off somehow... not really sure how. I think it's because it's weird, but not in the right way. Magebred animals were kind of boring monsters, though the idea of the ghost tigers isn't too bad. Cyre/Mournland The Good: The steel kraken rocks. I rather liked the Cyran Avenger, though the abilities were a bit unfocused, I'll admit. The LOBster stuff wasn't too bad, either. The Bad: A PrC representing what Cyre was, rather than what Cyre has become, would've been slightly cooler, I think. The Mourners were kind of pointless, as they're just like existing creatures. I would've prefered to see, say, that Mutated Creature template that there was an illustration for, or perhaps something for the "ghostbeasts" that stalk Metrol. I would've liked more about Metrol (for example, what are these great Palaces of Vermishard that cover half the city, anyway?), and a lot more about pre-Mourning Cyre. I would've liked to see a bit more about how the warforged that follower the Lord of Blades actually live, with an NPC entry or two for his favored leiutenants. Mostly, though, I liked the chapter - it was just too short. Karrnath The Good: Conceptually, the Bone Knight is great. I rather liked what the author(s?) did with Fort Bones. Turned a random dot on the map into a great center point for a military campaign. The NPC write-ups and the Order of Rekkenmark were rather cool. The Bad: Rules-wise, the Bone Knight feels a bit weird. Feels like it's got too many caster levels, the interplay with paladin is a bit weird, and Concentration isn't a class skill (how do you manage that for a battle caster, epsecially a mounted one?). Again, I'd rather have a good overview of the various locations in Karrnath, not a handful of specific write-ups with room info and encounter tables. The bulette rehash wasn't very exciting, either. A bit more about the Twelve, particularly how internal politics work (or, for example, how the Twelve deals with the fact that the Houses of Shadow have split), would've been nice. This might be going too far, but a write-up like the one for the Council in Sharn would've been nice. I would've preferred some more info on Atur, Karlakton, and the rest instead of adventure-y type write-ups. Thrane The Good: The Sovereign church across the street from the Flame church with a statue of Tyra in between was very cute. I liked that the Argentum was neither a full-on spy group nor a religious order, as one might've expected, but something in between. Diani and related bits were done pretty well, I thought. The Bad: Too short, it seems. A bit bland. I don't like holy gargoyles (couldn't they just slap the celestial template on and say "yeah, you can find them in churches?"). More about a cardinal or two would be cool. Stuff I just kind of put at the end here... Good, but I forget which chapter: I forget where this is, but I rather liked the Thronehold bit. Also, and this is a general thing, I kind of like the new NPC statblock format, too. Much easier to read than the cramped little blocks, and stuff is grouped sensibly and in order. No searching for stats, and you can run most encounters by just going down the list (Spot and Listen checks for encounter setup and a list of what languages the NPC can speak/understand right at the top, then Initiative, then the stats that matter most when the NPC isn't acting, like AC amd hp, then what the NPC can do when it's time to act, then details and equipment). Bad, but not in a chapter: The back. No index. An ad for the damn campaign setting, and for another book that at least 80% of the peole buying this one already have, and that all of them probably already know about. Another ad, for the RPGA. An order form. No index. Next to 32 pages that I expect to be there but aren't. (Now, I'm okay with it being a 160-page book, no "I paid blah blah blah for this" complaining from me... I just feel like a lot was missing and yet the book was on the short side.) Overall, I thought the book was okay. It's definitely far inferior to ECS and S:CoT. Quite a bit less informative than the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, which I think is a better example of a geography book (though a bit on the bland side, to be sure). I think of Five Nations as being about on par with Races of Eberron (i.e. occasionally good, mostly acceptable, and sometimes bad), though a bit better. It has a lot of good stuff in it, actually. But the book leaves me feeling like, well, I need a book to tell me about the lands and people of Khorvaire, particularly the Five Nations - so it's pretty clear that it's kind of, well, missed the mark.
polt 08-13-05, 05:40 AM	I love the magebred bear at least, mostly because of the amazingly cool art. I can't wait for my players to encounter Breland guards with magebred bear mounts.
Kid SixXx 08-13-05, 07:08 AM	I had no problems with the PrC's. Since they were govenrnment specific (with the possible exception of the Silver Pyromancer & the Cyran Avenger), the likelihood of PC's pursuing those PrC's isn't large, unless DM's are just in the habit of accepting builds like that without asking any "why's". PC's are more likely to be assisting / opposing governmental PrC's like the Bone Knight, Phantom Knight, or Dark Lantern than they are likely to actually be a Phantom Knight, Bone Knight, or a Dark Lantern IMO. Some PC's will find the governemental loyalty to be an unattractive restriction. DM's that don't enforce the governmental aspects of those PrC's are missing the point of the PrC's altogether, IMO. (ie. a Phantom Knight PC that does not oppose a party's scheme that could be harmful to Aundair or Aundair politics, isn't a Phantom Knight, IMO.)
Twiggly the Gnome 08-13-05, 11:38 AM	It's a fairly solid book overall. I would have liked to have seen all the things detailed about the other four nations applied to Cyre as well, especially a list of common names. Oh, one other thing, Haneela d'Jorasco is teh suk. :P
MysticTheurge 08-13-05, 12:02 PM	I also hated the Dark Lanterns. They already have the King's Citadel and the idea that the monarchy doesn't trust them ruins them as a class. They should be James freaking bond! The Dark Lanterns are, IIRC, a more specialized branch of the Citadel.
Roxlimn 08-15-05, 01:12 PM	Definite minus: How the book contradicts the ECS on the levels and classes of Lord Adal, Queen Aurala's brother.
MysticTheurge 08-15-05, 07:39 PM	Definite minus: How the book contradicts the ECS on the levels and classes of Lord Adal, Queen Aurala's brother. As a DM, I prefer to think of that as a plus, partly because my PCs can't point to the book and be all "But Adal is only Wiz 2/Noble 3" or whatever. I'm sure it was an error, or a lack of fact checking, but I really don't have a big problem with them publishing different stats for the same NPCs. I think Eberron is a setting where the less actual "canon" we have the better. More suggestions and ideas for DMs and less "This is exactly how things are."
Roxlimn 08-17-05, 10:18 AM	That really depends, though. You can always stat out your NPCs as you prefer. I would have preferred a stat block of the ECS Adal rather than the one in Five Nations. Indeed, if this is anything to go by, most of the NPCs in the Five Nations could be more powerful than their ECS incarnations, and I prefer the ECS level of power for such nationals.