Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Siran Dunmorgan 07-08-05, 03:57 PM	A thread for those who've picked up Five Nations—which went on sale today, officially—and want to give their impressions. For myself, I'm mostly impressed. There's an enormous lot of detail, and the authors at least appear to have read the Eberron Campaign Setting. It's going to take weeks just to digest all of the various sects in Thrane, for example. The only problem I've seen so far is that Aundair seems oddly over-powered, in the sense of having many more high-level characters available than elsewhere; the other nations seem more in line with what we've come to expect from Eberron. The Arcane Congress is completely over the top for surrealism. I'm not sure yet if that's good or bad. —Siran Dunmorgan
Brastan 07-08-05, 04:30 PM	A very filling book. I feel like an orcish librarian (M:TG card). Each section as so much fluff and flavoring I'm satisfied. The sections are laid out in such a different style then I'm used to. Each section is almost a separate supplement. New monsters, PrCs, and some spells should keep PCs busy. Some of the organizations are great additions. They even have real benefits for joining. I guess I had been felling frantic without additional Eberron material, I don't count RoE for that fix. Now I'm felling fat and happy. :tongue: You really get a feeling for each of the five nations. Breland Blue!
stone_dog 07-08-05, 04:32 PM	A while ago Scott Gaerin (sorry if I messed your name up, man. Typing this at the end of my lunch and all) mentioned that there was something that he was writing for the book that he hoped would change the views players had on the effectiveness of sorcerers. Anything leap out at you regarding that?
zentr 07-08-05, 05:36 PM	I don't have anything to add because I haven't gotten the book yet. I'm posting to encourage those who have gotten Five Nations to offer their first impressions. Tell us more! Thanks. :D
Siran Dunmorgan 07-08-05, 06:54 PM	Hmm… my original impression was incorrect: Whoever wrote the "Crying Fields" section obviously has not read the Eberron Campaign Setting… else they'd've specified which moon. But that's nitpicking. Overall this looks pretty good. —Siran Dunmorgan
ekomega 07-08-05, 07:26 PM	I just got it, and so will get back in a few hours. It seems very full, and the maps are nice.
inspired 07-08-05, 07:32 PM	overall, i am very much impressed, lots of fluff, decent crunch, SCADS of flavour... there are some niggling details, but for the most part, they're few and far between. and as far as the "looking at sorcerors in a whole new light", i believe that's the "silver pyromancer", a thranish sorceror/cleric prc, which is pretty durn cool... as far as aundair goes, it does seem rather overpowered, but i'm trying to tell myself that yes, there are higher level npc's than i was expecting, but thare are less of them, than in the other countries.... a higher bell curve, if you will.
Edymnion 07-08-05, 08:22 PM	I'm picking it up tomorrow, FLGS willing. I'll give my impressions on it then :)
DBlizzard 07-08-05, 08:48 PM	Lots of good things. My favorite is the Silver Pyromancer. A Silver Flame arcanist who can "Smite Evil" with spells.
pseudonym 07-08-05, 09:10 PM	At a quick glance it seems pretty decent. However, little things are popping up. For example, the entry on Breland says that Brelish rangers on magebred bears patrol the western border while druids and their magebred ghost tiger animal companions haunt the rainforests. I thought that magebred animals were never animal companions, at least acording to the ECS. However Five Nations has information on what level a druid or ranger can have one as a companion, and rules about how many tricks they can know. Oh well.
Darckchild 07-09-05, 12:03 AM	I'm loving this book, it's "fleshing" things out nicely. My only complaint is that my copy is poorly bound. The rest of the copies of the book at the local gaming were in worse condition. I wish the guys at WoTC would find better printers/book binders... :weep:
Streamweaver 07-09-05, 12:50 AM	Picked it up this afternoon. My first impression isn't a very good one actually. There is a lot of things that is interesting as an aside and fluff stuff, the problem is it appears kind of short on more meaty things I wanted to see like more on groups and organizations. About the only real expansion material I can find are the few prestige classes, which aren't every good. I don't think the book is bad at all, I think it fits into the interesting catagory but I'm not sure how much help it is for running a game in Eberron beyond just flavor. Considering the book seems kind of short it seems a real shame because they could have kept all the fluff material without having to sacrifice space for more useful items to a game. I have to say the track record for Eberron products is starting to become questionable. ECS was great, Sharn was great, Races of Eberron just okay, and Five Nations slightly less so it seems. I really like the GM screen btw but Eberron is way too new a setting for so many core books to be of such limited use.
Edymnion 07-09-05, 01:02 AM	I dunno, I rather like the sound of "its all fluff". I can come up with my own crunch for anything under the sun, its the fluff I look for in Eberron products.
Troy70 07-09-05, 01:25 AM	I for one like the book. I think it will help me with my game I plan to run next week.
PoeticJustice 07-09-05, 01:32 AM	I am in love with this book. As far as crunch, it breaks down to... 5 Prcs (one for each country) NO FEATS a few Silver Flame spells (no other spells) and a few new monsters. This book is fluff. It's all fluff. Field Marshall Fluff killed Cap'n Crunch on this one. Did I mention it has a lot fluff and a distinct lack of crunch? :) I haven't read it all (who could? It's 160 pgs. of glorious, nigh-dragonshard quality backgroud detail) but Most of it seems to stay true to Eberron with a GLARING discrepancy: Aundair. First, there's the discrepancy with the Crimson fields, although that's really nothing compared to the level 13 cleric that casts Raise Dead on behalf of the first party that tosses 6000 gold at her. What's more, she's capable of casting resurrection, and will do so happily for a fee on any non-criminal. Combined with the PrC for Aundair, with it's high entry requirements, I am a little suspicious of this writer's familiarity with Eberron. What saves this chapter (and honestly, more than makes up the difference) is the excellent treatment regarding the Royal Eyes. It's the first time I've ever seen an organization with this level of description. You know who's in charge, what (quantifiably) you get for being a member, up to and including a coveted 'ir prefix on your last name. It also says how to join, the Royal Eyes deals with outsiders, specifically what missions members of the various ranks go on, and what compensation (there is a specific rate) a member can expect for hazardous duty. Also, the treatment given to Whisper Woods and its rock screams to be used. If you're into the traditional "spooky, haunted woods rife with monsters (in this case, Araneas engaged in a war with Centaur Diviners over the whisper rock) and an ancient evil in its heart, you'll like this. Aside: Edy once said that Eberron is lot like the world of FF9 (monster spawning mist, airships, ect.) I kept on thinking about that evil forest from disc 1 when I read this chapter. That's basically the vibe of the place. The Mournland chapter is only lacking in length. I love the treatment the Cyran survivors have gotten. LoBster has been statted out, but the Warforged don't get the level of info they got in RoE. The only other part I've read in detail is the entry for king Boranel, which is excellent, and parts of Karrnath. Karrnath is given fair treatment, but it pretty much confirms what a lot of speculation had already showed: They're dour, regimented, and mean. They like undead, but not a lot. Of course, I haven't completed the chapter, so my opinion may change.
Crimsonsun 07-09-05, 02:15 AM	The Mournland chapter is only lacking in length. I love the treatment the Cyran survivors have gotten. LoBster has been statted out, but the Warforged don't get the level of info they got in RoE. The only other part I've read in detail is the entry for king Boranel, which is excellent, and parts of Karrnath. Karrnath is given fair treatment, but it pretty much confirms what a lot of speculation had already showed: They're dour, regimented, and mean. They like undead, but not a lot. Of course, I haven't completed the chapter, so my opinion may change. I was pretty sure somewhere they had said the Cyre section was going to concentrade on the nation prior to the Mourning... you could write about what people are left there now... but that would be very very short... unless your counting 'forged or living spells.... :D On a side note, Five Nations gets a :thumbsup: from me :D
ekomega 07-09-05, 02:36 AM	I like it. Since there's so little crunch, I don't really mind that some is a little messed up. I like all the fluff. I like that they finally made some more locations for everywhere, but didn't cover all of them. Anyone read the Breland chapter and catch that there's a Daelkyr just kind of hiding out by the sea? Sure, he populates his city with aberrations, but why would he just sit there and entice adventurers to break the seal when he could just capture some. He's a freakin Daelkyr, after all. His schemes also sound rather "other than mad" and completely explainable using normal material plane logic. That kind of bummed me out.
Brastan 07-09-05, 03:01 AM	The dress, customs, mannerisms, and food are the biggest draws in the fluff for me. I could really care less about things like the level creep in and slight errors in the Aundair chapter. A setting doesn't live until you know how each society acts. I never understood how democratic Breland was until I read that chapter. I'll be able to put real character behind my creations now. Its just sad that the current campaign I'm in started two weeks before this book came out. Otherwise I'd be a grim Karrnath Paladin, cold and indifferent defender of followers of the Sovereign host. Eventually swearing loyalty to Karrath and taking up the mantle of a Bone Knight as to be unencumbered by the code of holy warriors. That way I could better serve and protect Karrath form her foes at home or abroad. It's now my back up character incase my current one dies. Every book has its flaws but I think the good, correction splendid material in the Five Nations easily counter balances them. I've had it since thursday(although I had a test to study for at the time) and I still haven't been able to absorb all of the material. I may consider sleeping with it under my pillow tonight and see if I can absorb it through osmosis. I think I'm becoming a Breland fan and minor Karrnath one. ;) Forever the bear and crown (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/sharn_gallery/84557.jpg) !
HappyDragon 07-09-05, 05:05 AM	Am immensely enjoying the flavour the book adds to a setting that already has so much. I am pleasantly suprised that there is so little crunchiness in the book....a very refreshing change. I like the fact the book gives both players and DM's some more good stuff to work with, without pigeon-holing people into tight confines of, "This is the way it is and the way you will run it in your camapign", type of mentality. As one of the main things I like about Eberron being the amount of freedom Dm's and players have alike in contributing to filling in the holes of the ECS. Good flavour without needlessly bloating the appetite. Well done :) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Bluebrush 07-09-05, 08:48 AM	My FLGS hasn't got it in yet. Problem with the distributors or something. ¬_¬ Just a question for those who have it, is there any info on the intelligence networks of Thrane, Karrnath and Cyre?
zentr 07-09-05, 05:02 PM	I went to the local B&N (half hour away) and they didn't have Five Nations. A salesperson looked it up on their computer and they have a release date for the 26th or something. Well, for the rest of the world the release date was Friday. Maybe WOTC is holding back a couple weeks on the big distributors? Unfortunately, the FLGS in my area suck and they never get anything on time, if they get things at all. Needless to say, I am appreciating hearing everyone's responses to the book...sense I can't seem to get the book in a timely manner. :(
Full Quiver 07-09-05, 05:40 PM	usual these companies have such large orders it delays the arrival. I.E. they get shipped to a central locations for the FLGS company then shipped to your local FLGS. You may want to try any smaller gaming stores in your area.
The Dreaming Duck 07-09-05, 06:18 PM	My favorite bit: Queen Aurala has an object in her possession called Diani's enchanted gown; as far as I can see, no explanation is given for this. Queen Diani of Thrane is wearing no armor at all. So are we to assume that Aurala has Diani's gown? And was this claimed as a victory in war, or is there somehting else going on that we should know about? :) He's a freakin Daelkyr, after all. His schemes also sound rather "other than mad" and completely explainable using normal material plane logic. That kind of bummed me out. Yeah, I really disliked this too. It completely goes against the feel Hellcow has been given of the Daelkyr - in some other thread he said that in his eyes they weren't even trying to open the seals, at least in ways that people could tell. I prefer this, because it helps explain why the Cults of the Dragon Below don't work together more; they don't have one unified goal. But hey, I'll just ignore that bit.
HappyDragon 07-09-05, 06:29 PM	Just a question for those who have it, is there any info on the intelligence networks of Thrane, Karrnath and Cyre? From what I've read so far most of the inteligence type agencies have to do with Aundair and Breland more than the other three. Of course each of the nations hints at their own personal intelligence gatherers but the first two Nations seem to have the most indepth information and details. Although Thrane has an interesting little group called the Argentum that likes magic items alot and "collects" them for the Church....in some ways they could be viewed as a sort of intelligence agency considering the way the organization is written up.
Edymnion 07-09-05, 07:30 PM	First impressions? Lets preface this by saying that I have no problem heaping scorn where it is earned, and giving praise freely when it is deserved. That said, Five Nations succeeds in every way that Races of Eberron failed. Good lord, its page after page after page of pure fluffy goodness! Food, art, common phrases, what every character from that region would know, its just... incredible. Its got some flaws here and there, but they're pretty much buried under all of the pure gold thats in here. Seriously, after RoE, I had my doubts, but this makes up for it and so much more. A worthy successor to City of Towers! :thumbsup: Two thumbs WAY up! :thumbsup:
DBlizzard 07-09-05, 07:35 PM	LoBster has been statted out, but the Warforged don't get the level of info they got in RoE. The one thing I didn't particularly care for is that the stats seem to be exactly the same ones that appeared in Dungeon. I thought the idea of the LoB was that there would be conflicting versions so DMs could decide which version to use. We have conflicting concepts mentioned, but the stats have all been the same statblock. That's going to encourage a single, "official" version of him. Personally, I'm glad the Warforged in the Mournlands didn't get that level of info. They go it in RoE, and the detail should go elsewhere. What I've seen so far is fine. So, what are they going to call the next in this series. Obviously, we need one for the "new nations" now.
DavidB 07-09-05, 08:22 PM	I just picked up my copy today and over all I think it is pretty good. Only thing I was upset on not being there was a bit more about the Knights Arcane. I know that the Knight Phantom PrC is part of the Knights Arcane, but one part does not make a whole. Also would have liked a bit of coverage of the Knights of Thrane. And maybe a litte fluff for the Rekkenmark Academy, at the very least a location of it on the Korth map.
Mr. Wilson 07-09-05, 08:27 PM	This book is Fluff-tastic as I mentioned elsewhere. Highly recommended.
stone_dog 07-09-05, 08:30 PM	So, what are they going to call the next in this series. Obviously, we need one for the "new nations" now. I am hoping for two more nation books. One for the "Untamed West" discussing the savage frontiers of the Eldeen Reaches, Demon Wastes, Droaam and the Shadow Marches. And another for the "Unconquered East" featuring the fiercely independant states of the Lhazaar Principalities, Mror Holds, Talenta Plains, Q'Barra and Valenar. The problem is that there are two nations that don't fit so neatly into that pattern. Zilargo should go thematically into the book with Valenar and the rest, but it is WEST of Darguun which would fit in well with the book detailing Droaam, the Shadow Marches and those other countries. Still, it would be easy enough to just shirk geography altogether for this purpose. Anyway, that is how I'd like to see them grouped.
Siran Dunmorgan 07-10-05, 03:16 AM	Did anyone else notice a problem with the Lords of Dust plot described on page 20? An Orien Heir pays court to a Baroness of Cannith. Objective: matrimony. And the Patriarch of Orien describes this as 'unwise'. I was under the impression that this was utterly forbidden, the source of the abomination that the War of the Mark was fought to eliminate. Any thoughts on how we reconcile this new, official, text with what's been said already? —Siran Dunmorgan
Korhal_IV 07-10-05, 03:32 AM	An Orien Heir pays court to a Baroness of Cannith. Objective: matrimony. And the Patriarch of Orien describes this as 'unwise'. I was under the impression that this was utterly forbidden, the source of the abomination that the War of the Mark was fought to eliminate. It's unwise because it will quickly lead to the brutal deaths of both involved. Sorta Romeo-and-Juliet unwise. :D The Patriarch is the sort for understated humor.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 07-10-05, 08:18 AM	On the maps in the book, I hear there is a detailed map of each country, and one of each capital. What are the maps in the Cyre/Mournland chapter? Is it Pre-Mourning Cyre with a map of Metrol, or a map of the Mournland and a map of Construct? If it is a map of the Mournland, does it go into detail of Cyre ruins?
pseudonym 07-10-05, 08:38 AM	On the maps in the book, I hear there is a detailed map of each country, and one of each capital. What are the maps in the Cyre/Mournland chapter? Is it Pre-Mourning Cyre with a map of Metrol, or a map of the Mournland and a map of Construct? If it is a map of the Mournland, does it go into detail of Cyre ruins? The map of Cyre shows it as the Mournland is now, with a map of Metrol in its ruined condition. Construct in not shown, which given that it moves around is I guess understanndable. That and the fact that the writers of the book didn't include anything from the novels.
polt 07-10-05, 08:42 AM	What book would people say were better, the Sharn book or this one?
pseudonym 07-10-05, 08:55 AM	What book would people say were better, the Sharn book or this one? Apples and Oranges
stone_dog 07-10-05, 12:44 PM	If you define "Unwise" as "We will have to kill you if you keep this insanity up, but we don't want to cause an embarassing scene at the moment" then you don't really need to reconcile anything. It sounds to me like the mafia way of saying unwise. A threat laden with menace that sounds to an outside observer as merely advice.
greatfrito 07-10-05, 01:21 PM	If you define "Unwise" as "We will have to kill you if you keep this insanity up, but we don't want to cause an embarassing scene at the moment" then you don't really need to reconcile anything. Heh, if I use the word "Unwise" in DnD, my players -know- that I mean it this way. Heck, if I use the word in everyday speach, I just about mean the same thing.
Streamweaver 07-10-05, 01:34 PM	Having read most of the book now I'll summarize some thoughts on it here. This isn't intended to be a comprehensive review so take that for what it's worth. First I'd upgrade my previous assessment of this book from poor to descent, but definitely still not good. The layout of the book itself is nice, the text is big and easy to read. It pretty much follows in the ECS format and is enjoyable. Some artwork is new, but quiet a bit is recycled from the ECS book and overall the artwork is good artistically but poor in terms of giving much of a vision of the world. I found this really disappointing because I really enjoy props and visual aids when I GM and having a good piece of artwork that conveys the feeling of a place is something I look for in supplements. The information provided in the book is generally interesting but, as I said before, of little use to actually running a game. Unfortunately people don't really seem to understand the terms fluff and crunch as they try to use them through most of this thread. There are many nice to know or close to meaningless details provided about the five nations here and I would have preferred to see more substantial and meaty details, particularly since this is a new setting with many gaps to fill in, concentrating on frivolous details like this is kind of disappointing. I would have liked to see more on organizations and groups in the five nations. Something on military structure would have been very nice including ranks and so forth, particularly since "what you did during the war" is suppose to be a major element of the setting. Something on social, magical, political, or religious groups would have been nice. I understand these may be covered in another sourcebook but at least a short overview particularly pointing out the differences between national groups (Silver Flame in Aundair as compared to Thrane for instance) would have been MUCH more useful. Instead we got things like what kind of cheese a nation likes to export and so forth. Interesting stuff but a very poor substitute for information that can be more directly useful in running a game. Breland is a major disappointment for me. The book makes sure to point out the tense situation between crown and parliament and the problem with royal succession. However they really give you little to no information on how the Parliament work or how the powers are divided. It mentions in passing the heirs to the Brelish throne but doesn't really get into that. Since this issue seems to be one of the more important plot threads for the nation it would have been nice to have a bit more information. I couldn't possibly point out all the gaps of information in this book but be assured they are many and wide. I also found it tremendously disappointing that there wasn't more information on some of the break away regions of the original Five Nations. Eldeen Reaches, Mror Holds and such deserved at least a few paragraphs each and I don't think you can do any of the Five Nations justice without at least covering an event that effectively cut some of them in half. The book is almost devoid of any kind of rules bits that could prove useful in running an Eberron flavored game as well. There are some small bits about skill modifications if you went to something like Morgrave university but I would have liked to see more in general. There is one prestige class per nation, which seems to try to be the equivalent of a national paragon in some cases or just a national oddity in others. I didn't find any of those particularly interesting but the Explorers Handbook is due out next month. There are no feats at all and such. Most of this doesn't really bother me but it's worth a mention that they aren't in there. What I would have liked to see rules wise would be flavor items for the different nationalities. Perhaps some cultures treat particular weapons as simpler or martial weapons always, maybe others get better skill focuses. Basically anything concrete or more useful. I don't want people to think I hate this book because I don't. I definitely found the information in it useful and interesting. I think it will help give a better perspective on some issues in each of the five nations. The book is definitely not a must have however and I'll restate my opinion that I think bringing a book like this for Eberron so early in it's existence is bad for the setting overall. Particularly since a gamer who picks it up right now is most likely to get ECS, Races of Eberron, then Five Nations (if they even get to that last book due to initial cost), I'm not sure they'd be inspired to keep buying books for this setting beyond that. Thus endeth my cent and a half. If I have energy at a later date I may try a comprehensive review but the expectant crush of fanbois bound to follow this will probably make that less likely.
zentr 07-10-05, 02:05 PM	Thanks Streamweaver. I appreciate your input. (I'm still dying to get the book.)
PoeticJustice 07-10-05, 02:08 PM	Any thoughts on how we reconcile this new, official, text with what's been said already? —Siran Dunmorgan The same way I'm handling the halfing in Fairhaven. Complete and total disregard. If you're looking for a less tongue-in-cheek response, keep in mind that there's a Lord of Dust involved. He may be deluding the minds of the Orien and Cannith West heirs so as to believe that it's not a big deal. If I was an immortal sadist (I'm halfway there already ;) ), I would get a kick out of it.
pseudonym 07-10-05, 04:06 PM	Some artwork is new, but quiet a bit is recycled from the ECS book I only noticed one piece on page 11 being that same as from page 11 of the ECS. What else qualifies as "quite a bit"?
Dave2 07-10-05, 05:14 PM	My copy is on the way. Had a quick Question(s). Does the Geography section on each nation give population numbers? Also is there any info on the size of the military for each nation? Dave2
ILL34GL3 07-10-05, 05:33 PM	How'd the paper quality turn out? Were the lightning rail fares corrected from those in the ECS, which seemed to high? Also, does the set LOB stats in Five Nations have EVERYTHING listed in the Dungeon magazine critical threats article concerning the same character? Thanks.
DavidB 07-10-05, 06:13 PM	Did anyone else notice a problem with the Lords of Dust plot described on page 20? An Orien Heir pays court to a Baroness of Cannith. Objective: matrimony. And the Patriarch of Orien describes this as 'unwise'. I was under the impression that this was utterly forbidden, the source of the abomination that the War of the Mark was fought to eliminate. Any thoughts on how we reconcile this new, official, text with what's been said already? —Siran Dunmorgan I believe that it is only Dragonmarked scions of the Houses are not allowed to wed or have offspring. Not every member of a Dragonmarked House manifest a Dragonmark. It also does not matter if ones parents have the Mark. Another thing that bothers me, for every Nation but one (Cyre) the book gives a section Speech (slang) and Names. Why was this information left out for Cyre?
Bluebrush 07-10-05, 07:30 PM	I believe that it is only Dragonmarked scions of the Houses are not allowed to wed or have offspring. Not every member of a Dragonmarked House manifest a Dragonmark. It also does not matter if ones parents have the Mark. I think it does matter, even if neither has a mark. If you mix the blood you mix the potential for a mark, and that's enough. That is probably enough to discourage any inter-house love affairs, even if it's not the case, would you want to risk it?
Edymnion 07-10-05, 08:07 PM	The book is almost devoid of any kind of rules bits that could prove useful in running an Eberron flavored game as well.Which is precisely why I like it. It has little to no crunch. It is almost entirely fluff. And just so we are clear on how I am using those two words: Fluff: Purely descriptive flavor text that has no real relivance to gameplay mechanics, which instead focuses on making the entry in question more lifelike through the use of details. What color an NPC's hair is, or what the favorite dessert of a particular region is constitutes fluff. Crunch: Pure mechanics, devoid of flavor text or elaboration. Pure stat blocks, organization layouts, and price listings. NPC statblocks and feats fall under this catagory. Crunch makes it easier to run a game, yes. But Fluff brings the game alive. You can have an RPG with no Crunch, its called free-form. You cannot have an RPG without Fluff, because then you're just playing dice. I for one GREATLY appreciate how fluff-focused this book is. Its exactly the kind of thing I've been hoping WotC would put out for quite some time. What little crunch there was in the book is just there to accentuate the fluff, which is how it should be. More descriptions before more rules! :DWhat book would people say were better, the Sharn book or this one?Yeah, its apples and oranges. City of Towers made Sharn more playable through mechanics. Fleshed it out with prices, services, and breakdowns of the towers. Five Nations improves the depth of the game through descriptions. Opposite ends of the spectrum, but both equally good.
The Livewire 07-10-05, 09:49 PM	I'm happy now. Psionic healing works in the Mournland! Whoo hoo! For all you poor casters, the mournland section specifically states that Rope Trick works
Zalaz Mavi 07-10-05, 10:37 PM	The book is almost devoid of any kind of rules bits that could prove useful in running an Eberron flavored game as well. A D&D book not overloaded with gratuitous rules, spells and assorted other clutter? People shouldn't just be buying this book, they should be setting it under glass to perserve this unique and fabulous artifact... :D
Troy70 07-10-05, 10:47 PM	I love the book so far, almost done witih Chapter 1. Plan to take with me to work to read on my lunch.
Dave2 07-10-05, 11:07 PM	Will pose this question again. Does the book provide population stats for the five kingdoms in the Geography section? What about the size of the military for each nation. Dave2
pseudonym 07-10-05, 11:07 PM	For all you poor casters, the mournland section specifically states that Rope Trick works I also like the goodberry wine. We're running through SotLW now; damn shame we have no paladins or psionic healers, and our mage doesn't know Rope Trick. The no healing rule is just causing us to out think challenges or run away; though my swashbuckler with 0 ranks in Knowledge (arcane) may try crawling inside the party Haversack to drink a healing potion. Maybe if I spend an action point our DM will let me metagame ;)
pseudonym 07-10-05, 11:09 PM	Will pose this question again. Does the book provide population stats for the five kingdoms in the Geography section? What about the size of the military for each nation. Dave2 Yes, population statistics are given for each kingdom, with data for Cyre as of the Day of Mourning. No information on military size is given.
Dave2 07-10-05, 11:15 PM	Sounds like it has all the info I would want then. Dave2
Mr. Wilson 07-11-05, 03:08 AM	The information provided in the book is generally interesting but, as I said before, of little use to actually running a game. Unfortunately people don't really seem to understand the terms fluff and crunch as they try to use them through most of this thread. I don't think I could disagree more. And given that I feel this was a more or less reference to my fluff-tastic response, I must say that I found finding out what kind of food a certain group likes to be tremoundously useful. It adds flavor and depth to the cultures presented, and doesn't make everything so stat orientated. I'd go more into detail, but Edy pretty much sums up how I feel about it, and I don't really want to beat a dead horse. And before I'm accussed of being a "fanboi", I'd simply point out Eberron is a distant second place on my favorite DnD world setting. That said, if I could get them to give this kind of treatment to the Realms, I'd love it.
DoveArrow 07-11-05, 02:24 PM	I haven't read the whole book, but I personally loved the chapter on Karrnath. There was a lot of information in this chapter that dealt with what players should keep in mind when playing a character from Karrnath, a section that talked about what kinds of rooms you should expect to find in your typical, Blood of Vol temple, some excellent examples of how to run various campaigns in Karrnath (my personal favorite was the Fort Bones, 'fresh start' campaign idea), and a way wicked cool prestige class called the Bone Knight. The only thing that was disappointing about this chapter was the picture of Kaius they included. It seemed to me he was just too evil looking. It was also the first thing I took a look at (I always scan the art first), so it had me worried that they wouldn't treat Kaius as carefully as his character warrants. However, my worries were soon abated once I actually read the chapter. Other than that, I haven't read much else of the book. If the rest of the book is as good as this chapter was, though, it'll be money well spent. Heck, this chapter was so good that if the rest of the book sucks, and all the other countries are treated carelessly and with little concentration on detail, it will still be money well spent.
Siran Dunmorgan 07-11-05, 04:24 PM	Just re-read the first few pages. Does it seem to anyone else that the Last War was a Quori plot? —Siran Dunmorgan
Edymnion 07-11-05, 04:54 PM	(my personal favorite was the Fort Bones, 'fresh start' campaign idea)Heh, actually yeah. After reading over the Fort Bones material, I've got the urge to play a Karnnathi Fighter. Background would include his year at Fort Bones. Description would include a stylized skull shaped armor plate on his shoulder, and carrying a boneworked sword. The bonework armor of the Bone Knight can only be worn by a Bone Knight, but the weapons have no such restrictions. Perhaps say one of his friends at the fort was a bone knight that fell in battle. The character now carries his sword as a reminder of his old friend, and has a special hatred for the Valenar. FN really changed my viewpoint on Karnnath. Saw it as necromancer central, while this portrays it more as being like Russia, where the undead were tolerated as being needed, but not really accepted. Which could be a fun character trait to play up. Not frightened by undead, just disgusted with them.
sh0 07-11-05, 05:25 PM	Just re-read the first few pages. Does it seem to anyone else that the Last War was a Quori plot? —Siran Dunmorgan *Everything* is a Quori plot. :D
talion09 07-11-05, 05:31 PM	Just re-read the first few pages. Does it seem to anyone else that the Last War was a Quori plot? —Siran Dunmorgan Or the Lords of Dust... Or maybe Vol... Or maybe the Chamber acting in accordance with the Draconic Prophecy... :D Don't you just love all these "evil" organizations lurking under the surface of society, lol
Airship_Pirate 07-11-05, 05:41 PM	I thought it was a great book, but I actually thought it was a little thin. I'd bought Five Nations and Weapons of Legacy at the same time and was a little disappointed that WoL was the thicker book. I'd like to see some material added akin to the Dragonlance Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home books. Songs, foods, poems, fashions, folklore, etc. All in detail. BTW, first post evah! :w00t:
DavidB 07-11-05, 06:16 PM	Heh, actually yeah. After reading over the Fort Bones material, I've got the urge to play a Karnnathi Fighter. Background would include his year at Fort Bones. Description would include a stylized skull shaped armor plate on his shoulder, and carrying a boneworked sword. The bonework armor of the Bone Knight can only be worn by a Bone Knight, but the weapons have no such restrictions. Perhaps say one of his friends at the fort was a bone knight that fell in battle. The character now carries his sword as a reminder of his old friend, and has a special hatred for the Valenar. FN really changed my viewpoint on Karnnath. Saw it as necromancer central, while this portrays it more as being like Russia, where the undead were tolerated as being needed, but not really accepted. Which could be a fun character trait to play up. Not frightened by undead, just disgusted with them. Yeah, love the Fort Bones idea. Thinking of a Cleric of The Traveler and some other class (any suggestions welcome, I know fighter but I am willing to do something more interesting)..... This character might hope to one day becoming a Bone Knight. He did all the dirty work of one of the Bone Knights at Fort Bones to get a bonecraft Scimitar, the favorite weapon of his patron.
Essex 07-11-05, 08:49 PM	I've only finished chapter one so far and I'm already annoyed by the mistakes that I'm picking up on a casual reading. Lord Darro doesn't meet the weapon proficiency requirement for his prestige class; a problem which could have been fixed simply by making him a 1st level fighter/5th level wizard instead of a 6th level wizard. Somebody already noted the problem with Eberron's multiple moons. Bara Mernu's skill points are screwed up (and yes, I have counted in the fact that she undoubtably started with an Intelligence of 15 and increased the score at levels 4 and 8). Page 32 cuts off the text on Morak's crew. Page 22 indicates that Aurala starts as unfriendly but the results section seems to indicate that she starts out hostile. This stuff may not bother most people, but as a professional proofreader I look forward to reading for recreation without having to worry about annoying errors in my reading material.
Splendide 07-11-05, 09:12 PM	So did it only cover the Five Kingdoms, or did Zilargo get a bit of a mention?
Puggins 07-11-05, 11:41 PM	My Evaluation after a reading: Fluff Grade: A Not as highly detailed as S:CoT, but it has plenty for each nation. I appreciated the "five things you ought to know", which is an almost automatic handout to new players. Ditto with attitudes towards others nations. The boook gives you a passing overview of the major settlements in each nation- just enough to get you going as a DM, basically, thoug more would have been appreciated. Mechanics Grades: (I really have to do each class individually) Knight Phantom: B. Would have been an "A", but once again you have a class that heavily favors wizards and leaves sorcerers out in the cold. Fortunately, there is a way around the rather annoying requirement of being able to cast phantom steed- you can just unlearn it once you enter the class, since the class itself allows you to cast it implicitly and no continuing requirement is listed. It's clearly better than the eldritch knight, but #1 it has more entry requirements, and #2 no one ever claimed that the eldritch knight was all that powerful. This appears to be a fairly balanced class: Dark Lantern: A. Nice, flavorful class, without any horrid imbalances. Essentially a thief with alternate abilities as he progresses. Cyran Avenger: B. I'm annoyed that you can switch your enemy province as a swift action with action points- it sounds like you'd need to spend a week in the province to actually gain the knowledge and "attitude" you need to gain the bonuses, but maybe that's just me. Fine otherwise. Bone Knight: C+. This one has problems, but if you're just using it as an NPC class it's a fine replacement for the blackguard. Otherwise you have a no-brainer cleric prestige class- you get spell advancement, rebuke advancement, and some killer extras. This is gonna be NPC only. Silver Pyromancer: F. This class is broken. I'm open to debate on this one, but I've got lots of ammunition. The class seems to have a pretty tough entry requirement, that being a compulsory cleric level (or 4 paladin levels) for an arcane caster. But you quickly come to realize that the bread and butter spells of this class- that is, any damage spell in the game once you take the energy subtitution feat- are not at all affected by this penalty, and the first level lack of spell advancement doesn't hinder them either. That said, other spells will be two effective spell levels lower, and will be one spell level behind other arcane casters- fair enough. Let's see what you get for that: 1. An incredibly powerful subsitute for cleric turnings, transforming them from an excuse to take divine feats to utter death to undead. Every undead turn attempt becomes a point blank double area fireball with no 10d6 cap that ignores insubstantiality (or whatever they're called) checks. 2. The addition of the paladin spell list to spells knowable, giving arcanists some amount of healing capabilities. 3. The ability to transform first half the damage from fire spells to sacred damage, then the full damage at 5th level. The first ability is the equivalent of an exalted metamagic feat that required the spell to be one level higher, which you already have built in here. The second level of this feat has no real equivalent, and is virtually Epic in scope. Any damage spell (energy substitution is your friend) now completely ignores enery resistances. 4. A spell smite that is jsut too good. the first level of this ability gives you the ability to "smite" an evil creature with a damage spell once per day, essentially becoming a sudden empower against evil creatures. This would be fine, except it also stacks with standard empower. I guess you can argue that it counterbalances the requirement that the creature be evil, which I will grant VERY reluctantly- it's not much of a restriction for a really powerful ability. If the ability has stopped there, I'd say it was okay. But it doesn't- the spell smite also adds in the equivalant of greater spell penetration AND greater spell focus, and apparently stacks with both of these feats. Suddenly this leaves sudden empower (an exceptionally good feat) in the dust, and treads (once again) into Epic territory. The second level of this ability gives you three spell smites a day, essentially giving you two more Epic feats at 5th level. This is not a class I can possibly allow in my games in the form it is right now. If anyone can give me any effective counterarguments I'm open to them. That said, my overall assessment of the book is very positive. Tone down a couple of the classes and I'd be very happy overall. I would, however, like to point out that I'd gladly pay another $5 for an extra 32 pages of material. This would have gone a LONG way to fleshing out the details that other reviewers with negative impressions had. This book was awfully ambitious, and maybe a bit too thin to accomplish what it set out to do.
PoeticJustice 07-12-05, 01:42 AM	On top of all the other Pyromancer criticism, did anyone think it funny that, despite the name, one needn't worship the Silver Flame in order to take the class?
ILL34GL3 07-12-05, 01:55 AM	How'd the paper quality turn out? Were the lightning rail fares corrected from those in the ECS, which seemed to high? Also, does the set LOB stats in Five Nations have EVERYTHING listed in the Dungeon magazine critical threats article concerning the same character? Thanks.
Edymnion 07-12-05, 02:13 AM	So did it only cover the Five Kingdoms, or did Zilargo get a bit of a mention?It, and the other nations, get passing referance in every chapter. Its got sections for each of the five nations and how they relate to each other, and the other nations. For example, it talks about how Breland and Zilargo were allies during the Last War for much of the time, and how they still have very good standings with each other, at least as far as the Brelish are concerned.Knight Phantom: B. Would have been an "A", but once again you have a class that heavily favors wizards and leaves sorcerers out in the cold. Fortunately, there is a way around the rather annoying requirement of being able to cast phantom steed- you can just unlearn it once you enter the class, since the class itself allows you to cast it implicitly and no continuing requirement is listed.No, you can't unlearn it. Its a prereq for the PrC, if you lose a prereq, you lose all special abilities granted to you by the PrC. Just like any other PrC, and any other prereq. Just like you can't keep being an Arcane Archer if you get reincarnated as a dwarf. You don't meet the prereqs anymore.How'd the paper quality turn out?Not good, actually. The paper is worse than the stuff in RoE. It feels like the same thickness, but it doesn't have the gloss. Unfortunately, I question if the book will hold together as well as my other books. The paper quality is lower, and (at least in my copy) the spine is very stiff. To the point you can't even lay the book open without it closing on you again. Again, with my copy at least. I've been taking the normal steps to gentle loosen it up a bit, and its working, but you definately get the overall feeling that Five Nations... how to put this kindly... was less expensive to produce than other books have been. Personally, I chalk that part up to the fact that it is such a fluff heavy book, with so few mechanics that WotC may have been worried it wouldn't sell, so they didn't invest as heavily in it as they normally would have. It didn't seem to get the press hype that RoE did either, so that may be evidence to back up this viewpoint.
HappyDragon 07-12-05, 02:39 AM	Not good, actually. The paper is worse than the stuff in RoE. It feels like the same thickness, but it doesn't have the gloss. Unfortunately, I question if the book will hold together as well as my other books. The paper quality is lower, and (at least in my copy) the spine is very stiff. To the point you can't even lay the book open without it closing on you again. Again, with my copy at least. I've been taking the normal steps to gentle loosen it up a bit, and its working, but you definately get the overall feeling that Five Nations... how to put this kindly... was less expensive to produce than other books have been. My book squeaks when you open and close it. :mad: All the Five nation books at the FLGS were sqeaking. :tantrum: :raincloud Books shouldn't squeak :(
zentr 07-12-05, 08:20 AM	Is there an index?
Hair Wax 07-12-05, 08:33 AM	That's what I want to know. It should be arriving through my letterbox tomorrow and I want to know in advance if it has an index as the last three books I've bought don't. grr.
Wolvie 07-12-05, 09:53 AM	Silver Pyromancer: F. This class is broken. I'm open to debate on this one, but I've got lots of ammunition. I don't get my book till Thursday at the earliest, but if you'd like to begin I'd be happy to hear your thoughts. I've read a lot of Scott Gearin's work [mostly from the Spycraft line] and it is usually pretty damn solid, and has reason. Hmm .. maybe I'll have to persuade him to come over here and chat to you about it too :) As for the poor binding, imagine how I felt travelling all the way to GenCon SoCal last year, from Auckland, NZ, with the intent of picking up an early copy of Sharn .. and then getting told by the WotC booth staff that 'oh, we didn't bring it as we didn't have the room'. :uh-huh:
gaerfindel 07-12-05, 11:19 AM	I've only read the "Five Nations Excerpt" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a) (my bookstore shan't have it till the 28th, :mad: :mad: ), but I'll give my impressions of the Knight Phantom PrC. Oh. My. Sovreigns. Aundairan heavy dragoons with the speed of light dragoons [A dragoon, for those of you who don't know, is a mounted infantryman. They're tought some mounted combat techniques, but their training is to ride quickly to the battle field and dismount to fight.] Suddenly the motto "Anywhere. Anytime." becomes one hell of a threat to Aundair's enemies. After reading the excerpt last night, I had this vision of a fivesquad of Knights Phantom racing accross Khorvaire to reach a distant battlefield. Imagine the scene: Tearing accross the plains, the five knights push their phantom steeds tot he limit, but the spells shall soon end, and the squad isn't even halfway there, yet. Unpurturbed, each knight pulls from his or her belt a wand & gestures. Fresh steeds materialize beside the riders. In a maneouver worthy of the best Western horse-chase scene, the knights transfer -- saddlebags & all -- to the fresh mounts, dismissing the old ones back to the aether. The road is still long, but the squad will be there to aid their fellows by the next dawn... ============== Interestingly, the origin of the Olympic Triatholon lies in the training Napoleonic dragoons & couriers recieved. They were required to Ride a horse very hard Run like hell when the horse got shot/died from exhaustion swim the castle moat in order to deliver an important message
Puggins 07-12-05, 11:25 AM	I don't get my book till Thursday at the earliest, but if you'd like to begin I'd be happy to hear your thoughts. I've read a lot of Scott Gearin's work [mostly from the Spycraft line] and it is usually pretty damn solid, and has reason. Hmm .. maybe I'll have to persuade him to come over here and chat to you about it too :) That'd be great, actually. Like I said, I'm open to persuasion. My basic arguments are spelled out above, but to recap: 1) Turning an entire spell into sacred damage is well past any printed ability so far- a feat that turned half the damage sacred is listed as an exalted metamagic feat that requires a +1 level increase. Turning the full damage sacred strikes me as Epic Level. 2) The "Smite Spell" ability is far more powerful than the Sudden Empower Metamagic feat- so far better that it also breaks into Epic territory. Getting it three times a day only hurts it more. 3) the above two abilities, along with several other excellent benefits, are condensed into an easy to get into five level prestige class, which to me appears to be too much benefit for too little sacrifice. I'd love a good discussion about this class.
Puggins 07-12-05, 11:27 AM	No, you can't unlearn it. Its a prereq for the PrC, if you lose a prereq, you lose all special abilities granted to you by the PrC. Just like any other PrC, and any other prereq. Just like you can't keep being an Arcane Archer if you get reincarnated as a dwarf. You don't meet the prereqs anymore. Is this a quotable rule? Can you reference it? There are several prestige c;lasses that specifically say that you retain abilities even if you lose some of the prerequisites.
polt 07-12-05, 11:45 AM	Is this a quotable rule? Can you reference it? There are several prestige c;lasses that specifically say that you retain abilities even if you lose some of the prerequisites. Exactly, it has to say that you can keep the PrC class if you loose some of the prerequisites.
DoveArrow 07-12-05, 12:09 PM	The spine is very stiff... to the point you can't even lay the book open without it closing on you again. Now that you mention it, mine is the same way. I guess that's okay, though, because it's more the kind of book you reference ahead of time to get ideas going, rather than the kind you have lying open next to you to reference stat blocks and monsters in game.
cmanos 07-12-05, 12:16 PM	My first impression is that Amazon sucks. They state the product hasn't been released yet, and as such, I didn't have my copy as of last night. Ipicked it up last night and cancelled my order, as well as all future orders, dropping them a line stating why. I have't had a chance to look at the book yet.
Edymnion 07-12-05, 02:56 PM	That's what I want to know. It should be arriving through my letterbox tomorrow and I want to know in advance if it has an index as the last three books I've bought don't. grr.Nope, no index. Which SUCKS. Its got some regional skill mods in it (like people of sharn having climbed the towers as kids, but know little of what is outside their city, Climb +1, Handle Animal and Knowledge (Geography) -1), and I would like to be able to find that information again when I need it. Particularly, I want to find if Aundair or Karnnath have the same kind of things going on, and I can't find it when I flip through it.Is this a quotable rule? Can you reference it? There are several prestige c;lasses that specifically say that you retain abilities even if you lose some of the prerequisites.Exactly, if the PrC has to specifically say that you retain abilities, thats a big clue that you normally don't. As for something quotable, I believe it is in the FAQ. It originally applied to feats, where if you met a feet prereq (like your Fighter getting Str drained below 13 they could no longer Power Attack), and was then expanded to PrC. If you no longer meet the PrC prereqs, by default, you lose access to all special abilities of the class until you again meet the prereqs.
Puggins 07-12-05, 04:04 PM	Nope, no index. Which SUCKS. Exactly, if the PrC has to specifically say that you retain abilities, thats a big clue that you normally don't. As for something quotable, I believe it is in the FAQ. It originally applied to feats, where if you met a feet prereq (like your Fighter getting Str drained below 13 they could no longer Power Attack), and was then expanded to PrC. If you no longer meet the PrC prereqs, by default, you lose access to all special abilities of the class until you again meet the prereqs. Well, not to get clever, but even without the spell in the sorcerer's list, he he still has the ability to cast phantom steed, fulfilling that requisite with a class feature. Is this just snarky, or would it legitimately count as fulfilling the prereq?
SemperMutatio 07-12-05, 04:32 PM	Puggins, At least one reference for that rule can be found on page 16 of Complete Warrior. It begins with the bolded statement "Meeting Class Requirements."
Edymnion 07-12-05, 05:54 PM	Well, not to get clever, but even without the spell in the sorcerer's list, he he still has the ability to cast phantom steed, fulfilling that requisite with a class feature. Is this just snarky, or would it legitimately count as fulfilling the prereq?Its like saying a Fighter with a strength of 15 has the ability to Power Attack, but he still can't use that as a prereq unless he currently has the feat. And no, a Sorcerer does NOT have the ability to cast Phantom Steed unless they actually have it as a spell known. They have the potential, but not the ability. If they have the ability to cast the spell, then they must be able to actually cast it, which means they have to have the spell known (for sorcerers) or have it in their spellbook (for wizards).
MartM 07-12-05, 05:57 PM	How'd the paper quality turn out? Also, does the set LOB stats in Five Nations have EVERYTHING listed in the Dungeon magazine critical threats article concerning the same character? Thanks. Nope. the LoB is more lethal...
DBlizzard 07-12-05, 07:21 PM	1) Turning an entire spell into sacred damage is well past any printed ability so far- a feat that turned half the damage sacred is listed as an exalted metamagic feat that requires a +1 level increase. Turning the full damage sacred strikes me as Epic Level. Actually, it's not an Exalted feat (and appears in Complete Divine), just a metamagic feat. If changing half damage is +1 level, I don't see that changing all the damage suddenly jumps to "Epic level." I'd say it's about +2.5 level if it was a metamagic feat. 2) The "Smite Spell" ability is far more powerful than the Sudden Empower Metamagic feat- so far better that it also breaks into Epic territory. Getting it three times a day only hurts it more. This certainly depends on the campaign. I'd think in Eberron a good party would more often been fighting neutral or even good opponents. That dilutes the ability a lot. If there is any problem with this class, it's combining it with the energy substitution feats.
Twiggly the Gnome 07-12-05, 07:38 PM	I am hoping for two more nation books. One for the "Untamed West" discussing the savage frontiers of the Eldeen Reaches, Demon Wastes, Droaam and the Shadow Marches. And another for the "Unconquered East" featuring the fiercely independant states of the Lhazaar Principalities, Mror Holds, Talenta Plains, Q'Barra and Valenar. The problem is that there are two nations that don't fit so neatly into that pattern. Zilargo should go thematically into the book with Valenar and the rest, but it is WEST of Darguun which would fit in well with the book detailing Droaam, the Shadow Marches and those other countries. Still, it would be easy enough to just shirk geography altogether for this purpose. Anyway, that is how I'd like to see them grouped. I'd like to see three books with four nations apiece. Nations of the West: Demon Wastes, Droam, Eldeen Reaches and Shadow Marches. Nations of the East: Lhazaar Principalities, Mror Holds, Q'barra and Talenta Plains. Nations of the South: Aerenal, Darguun, Valenar and Zilargo.
Naudachu 07-12-05, 07:45 PM	Well I had to go to a couple of different stores, but when I did finally find it I quickly opened up to the Karnnath section and devoured what I could since I was running a game the next day. I was glad the city I added wasn't squashed out of existence by something new (although I could have substituted things). I like that they've added more landmarks, like cities, but some of them aren't mentioned in the text (especially Karnnath), so it's a double edged sword (so to speak). What I really like is the map of Khorvaire with the bright red lines showing the borders (although some of the islands by Q'Barra are ambiguous). Although I think the depth of detail was better than more general breadth (but both are good). For example, the mapped out city of Korth and all the little details there do better to inspire me to flesh out the other cities than a bunch of small descriptions of various cities would. Not that I wouldn't like to see the small descriptions, too. From what I've seen, a great book. Lots of information and it leaves you wanting more (which is good and bad). And there aren't a bunch of new feats and spells just because it's expected. I agree more books like this are in order. Two or three more for Khorvaire would be good and a book each for the other continents (Aerenal could probably fit into one of the Khorvaire books). And I would pay more for more pages also.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 07-12-05, 07:47 PM	Is there any mention of the Lord of Blade's capital city of Construct in the Mournlands chapter (as described in the Marked for Death novel)? I liked the idea and imagery behind that mobile city, and I would like to see more about it in a canon source :)
PoeticJustice 07-12-05, 08:45 PM	With regards to the poor binding, what follows is an easy way to keep the books from falling apart: 1) Open to page 80-81 (middle of book) 2) Laying the book face-up on a flat, steady surface such as a table, use your index, middle, and ring fingers to trace down the spine of the book, beginning at the top and tracing your way slowly down ths spine. The Pages adjacent to the spine should be pushed flat against the book when you do this. 3) Open the book to the inside cover and repeat the same tracing process, using the front cover and the title page rather than the middle. 4) Flip to the back cover and repeat the same process While this technique won't cause the book to dramatically loosen, it will ensure that the loosening process occurs smoothly. Happy Reading!
Tzarevitch 07-14-05, 03:56 PM	Is there any mention of the Lord of Blade's capital city of Construct in the Mournlands chapter (as described in the Marked for Death novel)? I liked the idea and imagery behind that mobile city, and I would like to see more about it in a canon source :) There isn't any mention of Construct in the book. Tzarevitch
mistakeagian 07-14-05, 04:11 PM	There isn't any mention of Construct in the book. Tzarevitch I, personally, doubt they will ever detail Construct. I hope they don't. I don;t want to see the novels dictate the world, nor do i want my players yelling at me if I decide MY Construct works differently. After all, anyone can read the novels, so it kinda ruins the mystery and awe after that. I did notice they detailed Metrol, was it? I have only had a cursory glance at the book at friend's houses. Had to buy my books for college before my books for fun. :-P
Mr. Wilson 07-14-05, 08:54 PM	The most interesting thing about Metrol was that parts of the city seem to be re-arranged as well. Buildings in different places, etc, etc.
Uller999 07-15-05, 01:49 PM	Right well I understand the neat aesthetic elements of all the clothes, and foods, and that kinda of thing. I think its all well in nice when it is backed up by some more substanitive qualities like military structuring, city and terrain descriptions, poltical powers, international realtions, etc. In Five nations though I felt that in the case of a couple of countries there was very little in the way of substanitive information. Those two would be Aundair and Karrnath. Aundair had descriptions of only the captial, one region, and Arcanix where as all the other countries had descriptions of most cities and terrain features. Also Aundair apparently has only the triumviarate and and the royal eyes as plot elements, which compared to the other countries just seems weak. I'm aware that there is a guerilla war going on in the Eldeen Reeches and that Dragomarked house relations are awkward cause Aurala taking a dargonmarked noble as a consort but I want that stuff fleshed out. I mean its that kind of thing that affects PCs more than what type of food do Aundairans eat. The important difference is one I can plan an adventure around the other one gets mentioned when someone walks into a bar. My problem with Karrnath is much more accute. In a country where the military hierarchy is so important to the culture and where they have a radically different form of law compared to the other five nations I would really like that explained out. I mean if the world is not neccarily supposed to have real world analogues than how does Karrnath's martial law work? is it like Prussias? Soviet Russia's? Nazi Germany? The US's? Post civil war United States? I mean what are we talking about here. Also the plotting seemed a little weak in Karrnath, it was well better than Aundair but still week in comparison to Thrane and Breland.
Uller999 07-15-05, 01:54 PM	Right well I understand the neat aesthetic elements of all the clothes, and foods, and that kinda of thing. I think its all well in nice when it is backed up by some more substanitive qualities like military structuring, city and terrain descriptions, poltical powers, international realtions, etc. In Five nations though I felt that in the case of a couple of countries there was very little in the way of substanitive information. Those two would be Aundair and Karrnath. Aundair had descriptions of only the captial, one region, and Arcanix where as all the other countries had descriptions of most cities and terrain features. Also Aundair apparently has only the triumviarate and and the royal eyes as plot elements, which compared to the other countries just seems weak. I'm aware that there is a guerilla war going on in the Eldeen Reeches and that Dragomarked house relations are awkward cause Aurala taking a dargonmarked noble as a consort but I want that stuff fleshed out. I mean its that kind of thing that affects PCs more than what type of food do Aundairans eat. The important difference is one I can plan an adventure around the other one gets mentioned when someone walks into a bar. My problem with Karrnath is much more accute. In a country where the military hierarchy is so important to the culture and where they have a radically different form of law compared to the other five nations I would really like that explained out. I mean if the world is not neccarily supposed to have real world analogues than how does Karrnath's martial law work? is it like Prussias? Soviet Russia's? Nazi Germany? The US's? Post civil war United States? I mean what are we talking about here. Also the plotting seemed a little weak in Karrnath, it was well better than Aundair but still week in comparison to Thrane and Breland. Okay the good stuff. The information about Thrane was excellent. I now have a palpable idea about how that country works, what the dynamic of their power strucutre is and how it can affect PCs. Breland in conjuntion with the Sharn book is also well covered at this point. After reading 5N I have an excellent idea of the look and feel of Breland as well as the power struggles and PC relevant stuff going on. Personally I'm glad they didn't say overly much about the Mournland as I want to keep that open to development so I didn't even look at the non pre-Cyre stuff. I just don't care. But if the book had done another ten five - ten pages on Aundair and another three or four on Karrnath I would have been well chuffed with the book. As it is its accetpable, its just I really think they could have done better.
Uller999 07-15-05, 01:58 PM	Right well I understand the neat aesthetic elements of all the clothes, and foods, and that kind of thing. I think its all well in nice when it is backed up by some more substantive qualities like military structuring, city and terrain descriptions, political powers, international relations, etc. In Five nations though I felt that in the case of a couple of countries there was very little in the way of substantive information. Those two would be Aundair and Karrnath. Aundair had descriptions of only the capital, one region, and Arcanix where as all the other countries had descriptions of most cities and terrain features. Also Aundair apparently has only the triumvirate and the royal eyes as plot elements, which compared to the other countries just seems weak. I'm aware that there is a guerilla war going on in the Eldeen Reaches and that Dragonmarked house relations are awkward cause Aurala taking a Dragonmarked noble as a consort but I want that stuff fleshed out. I mean it’s that kind of thing that affects PCs more than what type of food do Aundairans eat. The important difference is one I can plan an adventure around the other one gets mentioned when someone walks into a bar. My problem with Karrnath is much more acute. In a country where the military hierarchy is so important to the culture and where they have a radically different form of law compared to the other five nations I would really like that explained out. I mean if the world is not necessarily supposed to have real world analogues than how does Karrnath's martial law work? Is it like Prussia’s’, Soviet Russia's, Nazi Germany, The US's, or Post civil war United States? I mean what are we talking about here? Also the plotting seemed a little weak in Karrnath, it was well better than Aundair but still week in comparison to Thrane and Breland. Okay the good stuff. The information about Thrane was excellent. I now have a palpable idea about how that country works, what the dynamic of their power structure is and how it can affect PCs. Breland in conjunction with the Sharn book is also well covered at this point. After reading 5N I have an excellent idea of the look and feel of Breland as well as the power struggles and PC relevant stuff going on. Personally I'm glad they didn't say overly much about the Mournland as I want to keep that open to development so I didn't even look at the non pre-Cyre stuff. I just don't care. But if the book had done another ten five - ten pages on Aundair and another three or four on Karrnath I would have been well chuffed with the book. As it is its acceptable, it’s just I really think they could have done better.
Raven Dark 07-15-05, 04:36 PM	Reading about Aundair's Crying Fields gave me goosebumps. The descriptive text in that book is just that good.
Altaris13 07-15-05, 05:47 PM	I just have to say that like all true Eberron products, Five Nations is a wonderful book and a definate must have for any Eberron GM.
Arcane Guyver 07-15-05, 07:56 PM	I really want this book. Haven't seen it personally yet, but it sounds like the kind of sourcebook I wanted about six months ago (and got S:CoT instead).
Bobitron 07-15-05, 08:41 PM	Great book! Very impressed with the content on each nation. I love the "Five Things Every ______ Would Know" section under each nation. Great for adding life to a character. I will add that the prestige classes in this book have single-handedly restored my faith in the PrC. Fantastic, social-based, and desirable. Is this a better book than Sharn? For my money, I would say yes. Of course, this depends on your game and where the PC's will go, but after a quick read I would say this is my favorite WoTC book so far this year. Paper quality? I was a bit disappointed, but not so much that I wouldn't give the book a big thumbs up.
Edymnion 07-15-05, 09:36 PM	I just have to say that like all true Eberron products, Five Nations is a wonderful book and a definate must have for any Eberron GM.Agreed, all of the actual Eberron line books have been of exceptional quality, and this is no exception.
Save-vs-DM 07-15-05, 09:55 PM	Finally I got my copy (weird mix-up at my local FLGS - they sent more copies of Weapons of Legend (beh) instead of five nations!). Mostly been skimming some parts and then picking up others. Rants and raves: Raves: Five things people know: This was a really, really nice idea. This is something I'll be showing my players when they pick their origin next game. Food: Finally nice to be able to tell my players what that in in Auindair is serving (and I'm such a geek that I try and match the food I serrve during gaming with the good teh characters are eating). Artwork: I gotta say, I really do like the artwork in this one. Looks nice and lends itself to the theme. Maps: Yay! More maps! I am overjoyed at these. Views on the Five Nations: Another nice little tid-bit. Names: I have trouble with names, as do a lot of my players. I would have loved an entire page of just names, but this small section is great. Rants Organization: I'm sorry, but I really don't like how all the crunch is broken up by nation. It makes finidng a particular monster or prestige class more difficult. Minor annoyance, but it gets to me. NPC Requirement Blocks: Don't like 'em. I wish WotC would find one standard prestige class design and stick with it. It gets hard finding all the various bits of a PrC when they keep changing how it's presented. Too Short: It's a great book. Just wish there was a little bit more of it. That's about it. The good stuff far outweighs the minor annoyances. I'd give this book a solid 8 out of 10. Possibly a 9 out of 10, but it's a little too short for nine. I rank it right behind CoT in bang for your buck. Cheers, Save vs DM
ILL34GL3 07-16-05, 02:35 PM	I like how there's less of the cartoony artwork. I like to imagine a more realistic vision of my rpg games, not an anime. The fluff content is great. The binding of the book sucks. I hope it holds up over the years.
ORC_Paradox 07-16-05, 08:33 PM	I picked it up today, but haven't had a chance to go through it. (Today Harry Potter book 6 came out.) Reading two books at the same time will only make things confusing. "Voldermort went into hiding... in the Mournlands.... where some warforged... became the new defense against the Dark Arts teacher.." Looks good from my two second flip through, though.
MavrickWeirdo 07-16-05, 10:43 PM	I can't believe that no one has mentioned one of the few crunchy bits of the book: "Affiliations". It is not a Class, it is not a Feat, it is not a Skill. From a stats point of view it's a "freebie". Affiliations are a way to have a character be a member of an organization (often a secret organization) and to measure a character's standing/rank within an organization. The book gives 3 examples: 1 in Aundair, 1 in Karrnath, 1 in Thrane. However with these examples it would be easy to create an "Affiliation" for: The Aurum, The Citadel, Order of the Emerald Claw, The Trust, ect. So far I have only "browsed" it in the bookstore. My thoughts 1. I actually do not like the "red lines" on the map indicating borders. (Some people can deal with "grey" areas, some can't.) 2. I am disapointed that it does not have an index. 3. In describing locations, they seem to be responding to players complaints that there are places listed on maps with no discription. So each nation has many locations (towns, ruins, natual/unnatural wonders) each with 1 short paragraph. I was only skimming so I don't know how detailed the discriptions were, but I thought to myself. Would I rather 50 locations with 1 paragraph each, or 25 locations with 2 paragraps each (or ever 10 locations with 5 pagagraphs each?) Having said all that I like the book. I am pleased with the artwork. I am happy with the consideration given to food, art, music, games, ect. I am glad that some things like Arcanix & Metrol were featured. I like the Affiliations mentioned above. The NPC's listed in the book follow the level guidelines of the ECS (12 level or lower, & high society does not automatically mean higher level.)
DoveArrow 07-17-05, 06:46 PM	Just finished reading the section on Breland. Anyone else notice a decidedly American flavor to this nation? Maybe it was just me, but the emphasis on democracy and especially the mention of a separation of church and state seemed to just scream out "I'm a fantasy version of America! Come visit New York... er I mean Sharn!" Anyway, not my favorite chapter. I'd really rather see a form of democracy that makes Breland feel unique, instead of a real world form that makes it feel, well, ordinary.
Splendide 07-17-05, 07:38 PM	I'm happy with that, as it kind of makes Zilargo into France! :D Breland I always read as being very much more like the UK. No mad revolutions, constitutional monarchy, the same town (Sharn) has been built on and over for an extremely long time...the only thing missing is the population density in surrounding areas.
Syltorian 07-18-05, 09:30 AM	I really enjoy the book, especially the discussion of food and styles, and the sidebars about saying and general knowledge; though I would have liked more. Not that that's really a criticism, I would have said it no matter how much they wrote: One can never have enough of good stuff, after all. However, I have one question: On p31, under 'Knowledge Ward', it says the University of Wynarn was 'described below'. I cannot find it anywhere below, however, nor above for that matter. Arcanix, sure, but what happened to Wynarn? Has it been taken out? Will it appear in a web-enhancement? Or have I just made a fool of myself by overlooking something that is there after all?
Siran Dunmorgan 07-18-05, 10:03 AM	On p31, under 'Knowledge Ward', it says the University of Wynarn was 'described below'. I cannot find it anywhere below, however, nor above for that matter. Arcanix, sure, but what happened to Wynarn? Has it been taken out? Will it appear in a web-enhancement? Or have I just made a fool of myself by overlooking something that is there after all? That there is what we call an "editing glitch". You're not going mad: there really is no further description of Wynarn University. My guess is that there was one, but it was removed because someone thought the Aundair chapter was too long already, and the editor who removed it missed removing that reference to it. Whether or no it appears in a Web Enhancement remains to be seen. —Siran Dunmorgan
DarkWarriorKarg 07-18-05, 02:45 PM	Just finished reading the section on Breland. Anyone else notice a decidedly American flavor to this nation? Maybe it was just me, but the emphasis on democracy and especially the mention of a separation of church and state seemed to just scream out "I'm a fantasy version of America! Come visit New York... er I mean Sharn!" Anyway, not my favorite chapter. I'd really rather see a form of democracy that makes Breland feel unique, instead of a real world form that makes it feel, well, ordinary. It felt (to me) like a cross between Pre-Cromwell Britain and the U.S. I wonder if that prime minister will pull a "Cromwell"?
Edymnion 07-19-05, 01:54 AM	I picked it up today, but haven't had a chance to go through it. (Today Harry Potter book 6 came out.) Reading two books at the same time will only make things confusing. "Voldermort went into hiding... in the Mournlands.... where some warforged... became the new defense against the Dark Arts teacher.."Gee, thanks Dox. I just finished HP 6, and I'm trying *NOT* to run an Eberron version of it! :P
ILL34GL3 07-19-05, 02:28 AM	Just finished reading the section on Breland. Anyone else notice a decidedly American flavor to this nation? Maybe it was just me, but the emphasis on democracy and especially the mention of a separation of church and state seemed to just scream out "I'm a fantasy version of America! Come visit New York... er I mean Sharn!" Anyway, not my favorite chapter. I'd really rather see a form of democracy that makes Breland feel unique, instead of a real world form that makes it feel, well, ordinary. America is a democracy? I've always been under the impression that this country is a constitutional republic (http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html).
Edymnion 07-19-05, 02:33 AM	I've always been under the impression that this country is a constitutional republic (http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html).Its good to know somebody around here knows their stuff :)
ILL34GL3 07-19-05, 02:43 AM	Yeah I probably come off as a smarty pants but I just think people should know what the reality is. Especially when our political leaders and media are always yapping about democracy. And now back to your regularly scheduled program. :)
Beleriphon 07-19-05, 03:29 AM	Yeah I probably come off as a smarty pants but I just think people should know what the reality is. Especially when our political leaders and media are always yapping about democracy. And now back to your regularly scheduled program. :) I agree completely. Although oddly enough Canada is a constitutional democracy (as opposed to Britains constitutional monarchy), if using the definitions as detailed in that article you provided. In fact it comes across more like Breland the more I think about it.
Syltorian 07-19-05, 04:36 AM	You're not going mad: there really is no further description of Wynarn University. Thanks, Siran! :) Reassuring to know I'm not going mad. Well, I can always hope for a web enhancement (and maybe ask a few questions in the AKB thread). As for Breland: The way Parliament works seems to be rather British, with a hereditary chamber (House of Lords) and a chamber which is elected (House of Commons) by the various villages, towns and cities (constituencies). Pre-Cromwell Britain seems a good comparison as Karg has said. Of course, the Prime Minister of Breland doesn't want a theocracy, whereas Cromwell was pretty Puritan, so there are, of course, differences.