Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kryptonian Scion 07-08-05, 02:07 PM	Okay, so this is my first ever gripe about any published Eberron material. I even found some good in the three adventures recently printed in Dungeon Magazine, because my optimism for the setting is so great. However, a SINGLE paragraph in Five Nations has me irritated already. I blame the problem on WotC not including Keith Baker in the creation process of this one, as he is the Sage of All That is Eberron. Anyway, what happened to Raise Dead being incredibly rare? Page 31 of Five Nations has a 13th level halfling Jorasco cleric willing to sell Raise Dead on any given day for 6,000 GP ... and with 24 hours notice, RESURRECTION for 11,000! Seriously lame. I like the flavor of death being pretty much the end of the road, and if I use this material my players don't even have to collect diamonds. "It's my campaign, don't use it if I don't like it," right? It's also an NPC in an official sourcebook, which means it is a prominent figure in the world. If future supplements and adventures or resources rely on this cleric, I have to completely change it - and the fact that this "Resurrection store" is in an official Eberron supplement sets a precedent. Anyway, the rest of the book is great - that one bit is highly disappointing, though.
Alisair Longreach II 07-08-05, 02:21 PM	Think of it this way. This halfling is the only one on Khoirvare who is willing AND able to sell raise dead. And he does not make housecalls. And as he is a member of House Jorasco so he wants payment up front and he does not haggle. Do also remember that the PCs should make a Knowledge (nobility & royalty) DC 25 check to know that he exists and where he lives. And don't forget that the spymasters in Aundair like to know who his customers are.
Mr. Wilson 07-08-05, 02:23 PM	How many average people are going to have that much gold on hand though. It's still rare. Besides, it is mentioned that corrupt clergy will sell those services in the ECS, the problem was finding them. One NPC doesn't ruin that flavor, IMO.
cmanos 07-08-05, 02:26 PM	I assume the book has been released then? Will have to go and check the local stores as amazon still says my preorder hasn't been released.
The White Sorcerer 07-08-05, 02:48 PM	So a 13th-level Jorasco cleric exists. Is that supposed to be impossible or something? Unlikely and rare, yes, but possible. And of course he/she is going to sell raise dead spells. House Jorasco is a business, after all.
Kryptonian Scion 07-08-05, 03:08 PM	A side effect of this is that most temples do not sell divine spells. To begin with, many temples don't have a divine spellcaster. Those that do will not sell the gifts of their god for mere gold. If the petitioner is a loyal member of the faith, an adept may aid him at no cost, or the adept may set a price based on the abilities of the adventurer, calling upon him to make a sacrifice to prove his faith or perform a service in the name of the church. The more powerful the spell, the more significant the sacrifice or service. If a nonbeliever serves the cause of the church, it's possible a priest will provide assistance, but a temple is not a marketplace. No one can demand a miracle as if purchasing a spell from a wizard's guild. Needless to say, this makes a character's choice of religion an important decision. A cleric of the Blood of Vol will never consider helping a follower of the Silver Flame, and you'd be soiling your faith even to ask. As a Jorasco, this character may not be held to the same ideals as the priests mentioned in this article - but what does the lack of divine miracles at temples matter, then? An NPC cleric attaining 13th level certainly shouldn't be impossible. That's not my argument. The fact that for over a year the premise has been "Resurrection magic doesn't really happen in Eberron," and now it is blatantly disregarded with the easy availability of such spells, is my gripe. I guess what I'm saying, is I don't feel there should BE that sort of business. The concept of Cardinal Krozen sending a party on a "holy pilgrimage" to attain some relic of the faith, in exchange for the casting of the Raise Dead miracle, appeals to me way more. Instead, now, my PCs can throw down a sack of 1,100 platinum coins (it's really not that much to a party of characters above level 7 or so, if they sell a few magic trinkets) and head back into the dungeon.
ekomega 07-08-05, 03:18 PM	Well, they had the Altar of Resurrection already in S:CoT that was absurdly cheap. The question for that was where are they and how many Jorasco heirs can power it. So this really makes two sourcebooks that bring the dead back for cheap and easy. That's kinda bad. I'm going to buy the book from my FLGS right now, coincidentally. I think the rampaging villain in my adventure will have to finish this halfling off, and then require Altars of Resurrection to power his eldritch machine.
Kaoru Nagisa 07-08-05, 03:30 PM	Was it not said earlier that there WERE corrupt clerics who could sell Raise Dead, and maybe higher level magic? The trick with this guy is, how many lower level characters could find him or afford him? Same with the Alter of Ressurection. Even if lower characters did know of him and locate him, affording him would be very difficult, it seems. However, that wouldn't be quite as much an issue for characters who are level 9 or higher. Most parties of that level have a cleric, do they not? And it would be only natural that those clerics would use Raise Dead on their party members. The thing is, in game terms 6,000 GP is really very expensive, only something that mid or higher level adventurers or maybe filthy rich nobles and organizations can afford. And I doubt many organizations would spend 6,000 GP to bring their mostly lower level minions back to life. Now, this guy exists and there are others like him. The problem is finding him. Just because he exists doesn't mean that your characters know of him or know how or where to find him. Yes, life-restoring magic is rare, but it shouldn't be absolutely impossible. So, create an adventure around finding someone, anyone who will raise dead! Eventually they may find him, but first let them go through more than one red herrings. Make it difficult. Of course, I have not read Five Nations yet, so I do not know where this cleric is situated (obviously in one of the Five Nations? lol) or how well known he is.
AlDaRoN Arg 07-08-05, 03:53 PM	I don't think that 2 guys who can raise dead in a whole continent ruined the flavor. Compare that to old d&d where every town had a cleric who can do that. Besides who cares if is "an official sourcebook"? You don't have to change anything if you don't want to, and even if you decide to follow an adventure that contradictes whatever you had used in your adventure you can always adapt it.
TwinBahamut 07-08-05, 04:10 PM	High level magic is uncommon, not nonexistant in Eberron. Besides, we already knew you could get revived by House Jorasco. The Altar of Resurrection is an item from the ECS after all. They must exist somewhere. I don't think you can possibly claim that the ideal for Eberron has been "Resurrection magic doesn't exist." simply becuase that item does exist, and always has. Whether in Sharn or in the central House Jorasco compound, or wherever your DM wanted one of those items to exist, you could get resurrected. The only problem I would have with this at all is that the guy should probably be an adept rather than a cleric, simply because that is more consistent with what other members of House Jorasco become.
gaerfindel 07-08-05, 04:18 PM	I guess what I'm saying, is I don't feel there should BE that sort of business. The concept of Cardinal Krozen sending a party on a "holy pilgrimage" to attain some relic of the faith, in exchange for the casting of the Raise Dead miracle, appeals to me way more. Instead, now, my PCs can throw down a sack of 1,100 platinum coins (it's really not that much to a party of characters above level 7 or so, if they sell a few magic trinkets) and head back into the dungeon. Agreed. And in *my* campaign, NO ONE shall be able to simply throw down a bag of coins and request a friend be raised. Payment must be made in some other medium; services and favours being preferred.
Bluebrush 07-08-05, 04:30 PM	Who does this cleric worship? If it's the host, then he too may be restricted by his beliefs, meaning not just any scumbag can turn up and demand healing. Though it may not be inconsistant to have him raise only those he deems worthy AND require payment.
stone_dog 07-08-05, 04:36 PM	Who does this cleric worship? Doesn't matter to me, really. He will magically find himself worshipping Kol Korran in my games and be Khorvaire's little version of Leland Gaunt. Or possibly not THAT evil, but still will be ever inch the dickering merchant.
Kryptonian Scion 07-08-05, 04:38 PM	Who does this cleric worship? "She gets her power from Siberys." At best, I'm going to use the above suggestion that it is a very high Knowledge check or Bardic Lore check to have heard of this Jorasco miracle worker. There will probably be favors, contracts, and obligations involved if they can convince her to help them. At worst, I throw it out. Edit: I'm sorry. The exact wording is "channels divine power from the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above, so she's affiliated with no particular deity."
Wasteland Knight 07-08-05, 04:45 PM	Anyway, what happened to Raise Dead being incredibly rare? Page 31 of Five Nations has a 13th level halfling Jorasco cleric willing to sell Raise Dead on any given day for 6,000 GP ... and with 24 hours notice, RESURRECTION for 11,000! Seriously lame. I like the flavor of death being pretty much the end of the road, and if I use this material my players don't even have to collect diamonds. I agree 100%! This Raise Dead/Resurrection "on demand" reminds me way more of Forgotten Realms than Eberron :mad: Keith has been very clear regarding his opinion on raising the dead - that it should be very rare. This casual mention of a cleric bestowing raise dead left and right doesn't seem to be in keeping with his vision.
aelryinth 07-08-05, 05:14 PM	I see. One person in the whole setting, out of millions of people, willing to cast clerical spells for cash, and you find it unreasonable. In a setting as agnostic and worldly as Eberron? There are whole pages of me and Hellcow going around and around on this issue. The very worldly flavor of the setting contradicts the incredible tight-fistedness regarding clerical magic. Read the setting again...pg 35 I think. Selling clerical spells is NOT against Divine Mandate...Deities do NOT enforce penalties for selling divine spells. Clerics can freely act contrary to their Church's mandates and continue to receive spells. This means Clerics can sell spells as long as they can justify it to their Faith, without penalty. Penalties are applied by the Church to which the individual belongs, and how beholden to/fearful of their god they are, and responsibility to their faithful worshippers they are. This Cleric of House Jorasco sounds like they are reading my mind. 1) They are a philosopher-priest. There is no Church to say, No, you can't do this. Yay, perfect adventurer-priest-merchant. 2) They are of House Jorasco, and presumably using an Altar. If not...the same spells are available to Jorasco, so to the Cleric, it's a moot point. With a Siberys Dragonmark, she probably sees her spells as coming from the same source as her Mark...and everything gets sold. The Dragonmark is no different to her then the spells she gets from Siberys...power from above which everyone can benefit from. She probably sees it as a Great Thing, that she can spread the gifts of her House and Mark to so many, in so many ways. 3) The money earned can be spent furthering her philosophy to others. Given that the market for the service is rather small, and the cleric is high level, the income is anything but trivial, so her House is probably backing her in full...and probably has more then a passing interest in the faith that would generate such a powerful individual. And directly from Hellcow's words on the magic board, read the Definitive Alignment thread. Last post, I quote him and what all the repetitive arguments boil down to. It's the individual choice of the cleric involved. ONE person in the whole setting you can go see for a Resurrection. Sorry, I don't find that unbalancing, since by the time you can afford him, your own cleric can probably Raise Dead, your Artificer scribe a scroll of it, and you are only two or three levels from being able to Resurrect your friends for free yourselves. Resurrection is only a Raise Dead with a much longer duration if you can't get there fast enough, after all. Where exactly is the problem? By the time your character dies in the Mournland and you try to Teleport them to this priest, you can cast Raise Dead. If you have to truck him there, you are better off buying a scroll off an Artificer instead. This doesn't change the nature of the setting. It grounds it in the worldly...and they were VERY careful to keep this within the bounds/power of House Jorasco, to further cement the image. If they'd made the Character a 13th level expert with a Siberys Mark using an Altar would it have changed anything? No. ===Aelryinth
ussie 07-08-05, 06:16 PM	u know u could have Dolurrh (the plane) coterminous when the priest attempts to raise it, out pops some ghosts, your PCs sensing deception on part of those supposdly good priest make quick work of her, turns out she did no wrong after a lil investigation, the Pcs are reprimanded and punishes and stripped of many of their goodies (and heck the dead PC is REALLY dead now) that will teach your PCs to never both with raising anyone till one of your cleric PCs gets it.
aelryinth 07-08-05, 06:38 PM	Suuuure. <snip rant> Ahem. ==Aelryinth
Sarlax 07-08-05, 06:49 PM	While many people have made well-known their own views of how common resurrection should be in Eberron, I don't know of anything official which makes this case. In fact, the setting implies that resurrection does happen. I'm referring to the Altar of Resurrection, the Keeper's Fang dagger - why would you make a magic item that traps souls if resurrection of the dead wasn't a significant concern? - and now the Jorasco Enclave if Five Nations. I've created a new thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6645564) in the Magic, Deities, & Cosmology board to discuss several in-setting ways to limit the availability of resurrection magic without contradicting official material such as the Altar of Resurrection or the Jorasco Enclave of Five Nations.
ccerose 07-08-05, 07:08 PM	I've had one character resurrected in my Eberron game. He is a member of Breland's military and also has close ties to a house. The player RPs the religious side of his character consistently. I felt that this fit in the flavor of the campaign. The other players were pretty much in agreement. I know several of my players are going to purchase Five Nations, but its not going to change the difficulty of getting raised. Unless a player can justify his character is deserving of raise or is able to meet a high Gather Information or Knowledge Religion, they are going to stay dead. One other thing, I keep money tight in my campaign and the PCs are constantly getting themselves in debt. They went on one adventure that ended up costing them more than they made. 6,000 is a considerable amount of wealth. To pay for raise dead would require that they pull their finances together, and some of the PCs aren't that quick to give up their hard earned cash.
talion09 07-08-05, 07:16 PM	I'm going to agree with Sarlax and Aelryinth. One (or even a couple) of NPC's that can cast Raise Dead for cash is not that big a deal, at least not in my campaign or view of Eberron. 1. They are extremely rare, and those who are likely to be worried about their enemies coming back from the dead are also very likely to know the location and identities of those high level NPC's who can cast raise dead. So in my campaign, the BBEG (and any other global organizations that the PC's have seriously offended) have minions watching the shops of those high level Jorasco healers. So if the surviving PC's show up with comrades in body bags and bearing tons of cash, then there very well might be another showdown, this time with an understrength party. 2. I believe (don't have my S:CoT handy) that there was one or two Jorasco healers (adepts? clerics?) that were high enough level to cast raise dead and/or use the ressurection altar in the House Jorasco main enclave in Sharn. So this is hardly the first time we have specific evidence of it. 3. Convenience. So one Jorasco in Aundair, and possibly another in Sharn, can cast Raise Dead. And thats it across the documented areas of Khorvaire. That is slightly inconvenient for the party, isn't it? Even if your party is adventuring in the depths of Sharn and someone dies, it is a pain and more than slightly inconvenient to trek all the way up to Dragon Towers carrying a body bag and a House Kundarak bank draft, all the while dodging enemies and thieves. Afterall, as someone already pointed out, by the time a party can easily travel via magic from the location of the fatality to one of those locations with a high level Jorasco, they are high enough level to cast Raise Dead themselves. And most parties would have a cleric (or artificer) right?
greatfrito 07-08-05, 08:56 PM	Keith has been very clear regarding his opinion on raising the dead - that it should be very rare. This casual mention of a cleric bestowing raise dead left and right doesn't seem to be in keeping with his vision. For one, from what we've been told (I'll have you book, eventually!) it doesn't say that this cleric is raising people left and right. Hardly. 6,000 gp? That's a ton, sir. Only the nobility could afford that. Honestly, I think people are overreacting to 5-Nations just a -leetle- much (between this, and the "Oh God, there are 150 Knight Phantoms!").
DarkWarriorKarg 07-08-05, 10:27 PM	1) It seems that some people forget that WOTC own Eberron, not Keith Baker. They can and will do what they want. 2) Who's got 6000 gp lying around? A party of 7th level characters? Never seen one with that much loot lying around. Sell most of their magic items? That's in line with making a major sacrifice in order to get a comrade back. 3) Raise dead and resurrection should be as rare as instant death. It's part of the game system. In Eberron, death is the end-of-the-road... for non-exceptional people. 4) If any one should be coming back, it's PCs and pain-in-the posterior NPCs. Otherwise, why have a place like Dreadhold for prisoners? Just execute them. You keep them in Dreadhold so that no one can get them back.
JBW 07-08-05, 11:40 PM	Do also remember that the PCs should make a Knowledge (nobility & royalty) DC 25 check to know that he exists and where he lives. Sure, because word of a true miracle-worker wouldn't get around... :rolleyes: Its a business; he's going to advertise to those that can afford it - like the PCs and those that associate with the PCs as patrons. Jay
lugnut71 07-09-05, 12:07 AM	Advertise with what? Advertisments cost money and the amount of people that can afford his services or want them are rare. Most likely she would be using word of mouth. Hence forth knowledge checks to find her. Also she isn't a true miracle worker. She isn't going around and healing the peasentry. She is helping the wealthy which most PC's do not really hang around.
Twiggly the Gnome 07-09-05, 12:31 AM	Edit: I'm sorry. The exact wording is "channels divine power from the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above, so she's affiliated with no particular deity." Is that it? If so, that sets a horrible example. If a player of a cleric can't tell me what a character believes in and why the character believes it, I would strongly advise them to consider playing a wizard. :rant:
The White Sorcerer 07-09-05, 01:11 AM	Is that it? If so, that sets a horrible example. If a player of a cleric can't tell me what a character believes in and why the character believes it, I think it's pretty clear what she believes in: House Jorasco.
Twiggly the Gnome 07-09-05, 01:49 AM	I think it's pretty clear what she believes in: House Jorasco. Which is fine, the Blood of Vol is a good example of a dragonmarked house spawning a belief system compelling enough to inspire votaries. That being said, without an accounting of the philosophical underpinnings of such a Jorascian faith, it wouldn't pass the smell test for me.
PoeticJustice 07-09-05, 01:51 AM	For one, from what we've been told (I'll have you book, eventually!) it doesn't say that this cleric is raising people left and right. Hardly. 6,000 gp? That's a ton, sir. Only the nobility could afford that. Honestly, I think people are overreacting to 5-Nations just a -leetle- much (between this, and the "Oh God, there are 150 Knight Phantoms!"). It's not that there's 150 Night Phantoms. Or that there's a wealth of high levels NPCs in Aundair. Nor is is that there's a mercenary cleric in Fairhaven. It's the fact there's all of them, at once, and in the same place. Don't get me wrong, most of the chapter, particularly the adventure seeds, are brilliant, but S:CoT explicitly states on pg. 21 that Raise Dead is rare and Resurrection is practically unheard of. If there's some halfling in Fairhaven that'll cast it for mere gold, then the mystique dies considerably. Also, don't forget the possibility of a slippery slope. If one writer puts a source of resurrection magic there's the possibility that there will be others cropping up outside of flamekeep. That would kill the noir quicker than anything else I can think of. That's why we need to loudly complain. Another is the assumption that anyone above 5th level is a person of prominence, while the Arcane Congress entry stipulates that most of its members clock in around 10th level, which is a little higher than I'd like. Still, Aundair is supposed to be the Wizardly nation, so it's acceptable.
Crimsonsun 07-09-05, 02:21 AM	Sorry, I don't find that unbalancing, since by the time you can afford him, your own cleric can probably Raise Dead, your Artificer scribe a scroll of it, and you are only two or three levels from being able to Resurrect your friends for free yourselves. Yea, thats what I was going to say. So much easier to quote :D
ekomega 07-09-05, 02:29 AM	From the book: "Adventurers naturally want to know where to go to have a slain comrade raised from the dead. Fairhaven's most potent healer is ... (level 13 cleric). She'll perform Raise Dead immediately for 6000 gp in goods or coin as long as she's convinced that she's not raising a wanted criminal. Given 24 hours notice, she can cast Resurrection for 11000 gp in goods or coin." I think a lot of you without the book are jumping to conclusions. Read that paragraph, directly from the book. That screams against everything that has been said about raise dead in Eberron. Not only do adventurers want to know about her, and they do, since the book is practically advertising her, but she will cast the spell IMMEDIATELY. If you give her notice, she'll do you one better. And she accepts GOODS, not just coin. So you don't even have to sell things first, she'll just take them. It's ridiculous.
aelryinth 07-09-05, 02:34 AM	It's business, and she works for House Jorasco. It makes perfect sense to me. ===Aelryinth
PoeticJustice 07-09-05, 03:04 AM	It's business, and she works for House Jorasco. It makes perfect sense to me. ===Aelryinth That's the thing. It's not supposed to be "just" business on Eberron. S:CoT pg.21 explicitly states this. That, and Jorasco's power comes from the mark and focus items, not magic. The fact that this halfling is a cleric at all is a total joke. A bad joke. What does the Halfling believe in? Why is Siberys cool with her peddling miracles to the first person to fling 6000 gold at her? Faith in Eberron isn't something you leverage for power.
JBW 07-09-05, 03:25 AM	Faith in Eberron isn't something you leverage for power. I would think that the existing theocracy of Thrane would be enough to prove that statement false. Jay
PoeticJustice 07-09-05, 03:39 AM	I would think that the existing theocracy of Thrane would be enough to prove that statement false. Jay Why? Where does it say that corruption precludes faith? Serving your god flaying by heathens alive is still serving, and I can imagine the mindset that (deluded as it is) gaining personal prestige and wealth is serving the Flame by showing its splendor. I still can't imagine a cleric waking up and praying "gimme holy smite and true res. or I'll jump ship and hang with some other god" You need faith. There is no bartering with Eberron gods.
The White Sorcerer 07-09-05, 04:05 AM	Why? Where does it say that corruption precludes faith? Serving your god flaying heathens alive is still serving, and I can imagine the mindset that (deluded as it is) gaining personal prestige and wealth is serving the Flame by showing its splendor. Who says corruption precludes faith? I don't see anyone stating that. But still, a quote. ECS, page 209: "This is not to say that every member of the council is corrupt and has personal interests at heart, but many of them are, especially High Cardinal Krozen, who treats Thrane as his personal kingdom."
Brastan 07-09-05, 04:06 AM	Because thats the calling of House Jorasco. The halflings of the that house are first and for most healers. Untimely death is an probably one of the gravest injuries that can occur. She must also be convinced that they aren't criminals. So make it hard to convincer, she must be made 'Helpful' though diplomacy. Intimidation my get your friend raised immediately with proper payment but afterwards if the party wasn't wanted before they will now. Treating such a major member of House Jorasco is going to get them hunted down and likely executed or assassinated. Raise dead has a day limit. PCs have to get their dead companion to her in 13 days. In most cases this will at best impractical and at worst impossible. Lugging a dead companion back to town with a lighting rail station and then by the Lighting Rail itself to Farhaven would probably to late. Then the price spikes to 11,000 gp. Talk about twisting the arm of even a high level party. That doesn't count the transportation cost. What about airship transit? That might get there in time for Raise Dead but its going to be costly. The party not only has to part with the vast majority of their gold/valuables but also has to spend at least two weeks franticly pushing cross continent. There's also sorts of mayhem that could happen on route. How many of you have tired to catch an airplane or subway at the last minute. House Orine isn't going to hold the train just because the party needs to get some were in a hurry. :nonono: At the point a party or even noble could make timely use of this service they could likely just have done on the spot. The "goods" should be valuable, also don't forget the PCs are effectively selling her their stuff so that's half value for the items. By the wealth by level table what is the minimum level could a party of four adventures could pay for this? I would assume that at least half of their wealth is tied up in items so .75 * player wealth * 4(for the 4 members) to represent the amount of cash they can pull off party material. This is a minimum guess on my part, most parties will have considerably more than half of their wealth in items. She also only take coin or goods not services. PCs can't agree to take on a quest afterward or become indentured servants to pay off the cost. It must be upfront payment. All of this assumes she's not busy at the time and she still has raise dead spells ready to use. Please think in context before jumping the gun. Look at all of the factors and weight them accordingly. 150 7th level NPC is more setting braking than this House Jorasco healer. I would take this as a opportunity to create an adventure hook. The PCs are hired to transport to guard the transit of a young dead Breland noble to this healer for to be Raised form the Dead. They have the time limit and have to fend off any rivals that would like to stop this from happening. [Edit] Yes I have the book. I've had it for two days now. [Edit]
ekomega 07-09-05, 04:52 AM	Please think in context before jumping the gun. Look at all of the factors and weight them accordingly. 150 7th level NPC is more setting braking than this House Jorasco healer. I find that your first sentence directly contradicts your third sentence here. 150 7th level NPCs is game breaking? In a country of 2 million? Give me a break. No page in the ECS clearly states that 7th level NPCs are rare, but pages in the ECS do clearly state that the dead returning is a huge deal. Especially when these 7th level NPCs are only .0075% of the population of this one country. A lot of NPCs in the ECS were 6th level, so it doesn't surprise me at all. Aundair needs well trained people because they don't have very many people, and it's a really big hit if they lose any of them. And it's not like anyone is complaining about Jaela Daran. She's who she is, and there's a reason, and it's good. And she can cast True Resurrection, but she will likely demand a high non-monetary price. This Jorasco cleric is practically as powerful as Jaela Daran, but with no story, and selling her divine favors to any idiot who can throw the money out. If she exists, and she can cast Resurrection, why isn't everyone back to life? People who died at the START of the Last War could be brought back (souls willing), since her caster level allows for 130 years of death. Surely there is an archmage or a great general, or King Jarot, who they could bring back, and could've brought back a long time ago, to solve some problems. I imagine the royal families have the resources to keep their heirs alive (who didn't die of age), or really whoever they want. Now, there's a thread for arguing about how to deal with this issue, and that's not what I'm pushing for here. I just think it was a really bad idea to throw this in the book, especially with everything Keith says and the wording in the ECS.
memorax 07-09-05, 08:44 AM	Although DarkWarriorKarg has already said it. Some of you just don' t want to realize or accept that it's not really Keiths background anymore. He may have created it but Wotc owns it. So it really does not matter what is written where or whether it's written in stone or not. If Wotc feels the need to add stuff to the background for whatever reason they can. Whether you like or not. Personally I think people are reading too much into it.
PoeticJustice 07-09-05, 11:08 AM	Although DarkWarriorKarg has already said it. Some of you just don' t want to realize or accept that it's not really Keiths background anymore. He may have created it but Wotc owns it. So it really does not matter what is written where or whether it's written in stone or not. If Wotc feels the need to add stuff to the background for whatever reason they can. Whether you like or not. Personally I think people are reading too much into it. Yeah, but I doubt an imp from Wizards came up from the bowels of hell ad whispered to whoever wrote the Fairhaven entry "the boss says you gotta put an insanely powerful cleric in there. And he's gotta be merc. After that we're going skeet shooting with poodles and splicing porn into children's television programs BWAHAHAHAHA" Rather, this was just sloppy writing on the part of the author. Or at least, didn't care enough about Eberron to read pg 21 of Sharn: City of Towers and thereby, know better than to put a B***S*** NPC like that halfling in there. After all, nobody else did it (that I can see, at least).
polt 07-09-05, 11:36 AM	That halfling doesn't exist in my world, that's for sure :)
The White Sorcerer 07-09-05, 12:00 PM	Okay, so there's a cleric who sells raise dead. Emphasis on a. As in one. 1. Ett. Ein. Uno. Ichi. Yksi. One.
PoeticJustice 07-09-05, 12:21 PM	One is still too many. And if this one exists, there may be others forthcoming. The only thing we can do to prevent this (though I doubt its efficacy) is to say, as loudly as we can, that casual resurrection doesn't happen on Eberron.
The White Sorcerer 07-09-05, 01:14 PM	casual resurrection Casual? What the hell makes it "casual?"
ekomega 07-09-05, 01:59 PM	Because she can revive anyone who has been dead up to 130 years. I'm sure there aren't enough nobles with the 11000 gp resources to fill that entire time slot. She can practically bring everyone back who has the money. It's very casual. Even if you took a 30 day train ride to Fairhaven to bring someone back, it'd be worth it. Wouldn't you pay 11000 gp to have a loved one brought back, if you could? And all you needed was a measly train ride? Also, since she's a cleric, where is she getting all these diamonds? Both the 5000 gp and the 10000 gp variety. Maybe someone needs to raid a diamond mine.
PoeticJustice 07-09-05, 03:03 PM	It's frellin' casual because of the existance of the individual, as well as the context of the entry itself, implies that this sort of thing happens all the time. "adventurers naturally want to know where to get a fallen comrade raised" my foot! On Eberron death is death, the preceding sentence makes it seem like a temporary setback. That, and you don't even need the diamond, all you need to do is toss a couple grand at her and poof! The aspect of life that made the Last War so terrible, the aspect that Vol enthralls the masses with, the aspect that the created the Valenar, deathless, and shaped Elvish culture is negated over something as trivial as money. It's also that no other form of compensation other than money. Sharn pg 21 explicitly states you gotta work of a raise dead. Not so with whatever halfling cleric Jorasco's got.
DBlizzard 07-09-05, 03:41 PM	And if this one exists, there may be others forthcoming. I'll complain if it does. This fits with my thinking of Eberron and I don't think it's completely incompatible with Keith's vision (maybe not directly in line, but not too far off). I like the being returned from the dead is rare in Eberron. However, I don't want it to be impossible. So far, this is the only person where the PCs are "guaranteed" to be able to get that service performed (besides gaining the ability to do so themselves). I think it makes a great plot hook. This halfling is not going to have a quiet life. Someone who wants to bring back a known criminal will definitely want to try to either kidnap the halfling, or gain some power of him to force him to use his abilities on their behalf. Someone who doesn't want someone returned from the dead, and knows they have access to this halfling, will try to stop that from happening. Either by stopping the body from coming back, or by dealing with the halfing in some way. If I want the players to be able to bring the person back from the dead easily, I have that option as it's written. If I want the players to have to work to be able to do so, I have that option, too. Besides, from a PC, who really will need to use him? At 9th level, the players can "Raise Dead" themselves (barring the only cleric needing it). What percentage of the expected party funds will be used from a party of less than 9th level
Euangelion 07-09-05, 03:43 PM	Olladra (healing) is the patron deity of Jorasco. [Edit:] Which means that there are going to be plenty of adepts and even a few clerics of Olladra among Jorasco. Hellcow has said so. [/Edit.] Sure the cleric is going to be willing to take the money and cast the spell, because the cleric knows that it's very unlikely that the spell will work anyway, because the dead person's soul must be willing to come back. After a 130 years, or even 13 days, in Dolruhh (sp?), it's unlikely that the soul will have escaped the entrapment qualities of that plane. Of course, the payment is still due. No skin off the cleric's back. And death is still something very much to be feared by all, even PC's.
Mr. Wilson 07-09-05, 04:09 PM	The post is very important concept to all who think this breaks the setting and not something to be over looked. I don't think we have to worry about any being raised after a couple weeks, and for sure not after a couple months. The dead souls just won't come back because they don't have a concept of self.
Brastan 07-09-05, 05:00 PM	Additionally not many Eberron players want their characters revived. Most would rather move on to a different character so they try something new. Its been the rare exception for the accounts that I've read were a player really wants their beloved character back. At that point if the DM is worth his or her salt they will find a way to bring that character back promptly. The D&D is supposed to be fun. How can it be fun if the character you really like and play well is dead? The cost of the service is likely to low. There are mechanical errors latter in the character, major errors, that cast doubt into my mind about other aspects of the section. What would the standard price be for casting a raised dead spell for hire, including the martial component and what not? Again cost of transit, She's not exactly easy to get to despite methods of rapid transit in Eberron. Do the PCs have any outstanding warrants in the five nations? If so she's not going to help them. The section makes it sound to easy to convince her. It should not be an easy task to convince someone like that to help the party. RP wise this is were Favored in House is worth the feat. In order to be a cleric she needs to worship something very strongly. Just because the Dragon Above isn't listed in the deities section does not mean it is not something that can be worshiped. Worshiping of the Lord of Blades grants his follower cleric spells, or at least they believe thats were the power comes from. The Blood of Vol for crying out loud, at the core of the religion is a mortal lich not a god. Even at the fringe its the worship of various blood based rituals and practices. Strong convection, dedication, and faith are all that's need to be granted divine spells in Eberron. However the divine caster must remain faithful to his or her religion or they will lose their powers.
makeshiftwings 07-09-05, 05:43 PM	I don't like the idea of this cleric either. If there is going to be someone to cast daily casual resurrections just for business, why is she only charging 1000gp plus material costs? If she's really that rare, she should be charging ten times that amount. The fact that she's doing it for almost cost makes it seems like there's a bunch of competition out there, and she's the cheapest one around. Especially since she'll take the price in goods, which means half the time she'd actually be casting it at a loss. Unless she's somehow got this infinite supply of 10,000gp diamonds lying around. Maybe she's got a friend in House Cannith who will use the creation forges to make 10,000gp diamonds for 5,000gp a pop. :rolleyes:
MysticTheurge 07-09-05, 06:01 PM	Unless she's somehow got this infinite supply of 10,000gp diamonds lying around. Maybe she's got a friend in House Cannith who will use the creation forges to make 10,000gp diamonds for 5,000gp a pop. :rolleyes: I don't have the book yet, so I can't be sure, but is there a possibility the listed cost is in addition to providing the material component needed?
memorax 07-09-05, 07:01 PM	Yeah, but I doubt an imp from Wizards came up from the bowels of hell ad whispered to whoever wrote the Fairhaven entry "the boss says you gotta put an insanely powerful cleric in there. And he's gotta be merc. After that we're going skeet shooting with poodles and splicing porn into children's television programs BWAHAHAHAHA" Rather, this was just sloppy writing on the part of the author. Or at least, didn't care enough about Eberron to read pg 21 of Sharn: City of Towers and thereby, know better than to put a B***S*** NPC like that halfling in there. After all, nobody else did it (that I can see, at least). Before we accuse anyone of sloppy writing let's make sure that they were not forced to add it into the book. When you work for a large coporation or company you sometimes have to put stuff in a product you don't like. Until then who really knows? But as for the cleric why the big fuss it's just one cleric. We do not have any factual evidence that there maybe more. I kind of like having the character in. Then again I never did like the whole "Eberron must be grim and gritty" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: attitude which seems to prevail on this board. Finally if Keith did decide to add something like that in then I say more power to him. He created the setting and he can change and see it as he sees fit.
Hair Wax 07-09-05, 07:47 PM	From the looks of things Kieth doesn't agree with the decision. I personally don't see anything wrong with it though.
aelryinth 07-09-05, 08:03 PM	Gee, one cleric willing to do this breaks the setting. Do NOT ever have a PC cleric reach 13th level then, because they can do the EXACT SAME THING. And they don't have to charge anyone ANYTHING (except component costs...oooo, diamond dust.) Now, then, don't you feel silly? ===Aelryinth
Hair Wax 07-09-05, 08:11 PM	That's my sentiments. So far you have one (friggin' ONE) NPC out of a bajillion willing to do this and people are whinging that the setting and atmosphere are ruined. Crikey, it's supposed to be a low-powered setting, not absolutely powerless. If PCs can eventually reach that level so can others, they're just very, very rare. And one in however many millions is certainly rare.
DavidB 07-09-05, 08:30 PM	That's my sentiments. So far you have one (friggin' ONE) NPC out of a bajillion willing to do this and people are whinging that the setting and atmosphere are ruined. Crikey, it's supposed to be a low-powered setting, not absolutely powerless. If PCs can eventually reach that level so can others, they're just very, very rare. And one in however many millions is certainly rare. I agree with you. The problem as I see it is that we do not have a shared definition of what a "low-powered setting" means. So, as with all rules, if you don't like it, change it for your game.
Hair Wax 07-09-05, 08:41 PM	I think for a general overview of low powered somebody neeeds to disect FR-cities and compare Eberron to it as that's what most people will compare it to. I don't own anything other than the FRCS but if somebody is willing to put out the average level of NPCS and compare them then we can see what Eberron is up against to keep it's 'low-powered setting' title. If genrally people are a LOT lower than in FR but the highest of the high NPCS are 75% of a high level NPC in FR (and I don't mean disgustingly high level abominations like Elminster- although I don't know if there is a middle level for FR) then I'll be happy to call it low-level. Those NPCs are going to be rare and not revoltingly high-level but still powerful and influential and able to be a patron to the PCs when most other people don't have any threats or problems that would interest PCs of that high a level. Yet again, at this time of night, in my first two weeks off from uni I'm drunk-ish so I apologise if it's incoherent but it's just my opinion.
lugnut71 07-09-05, 09:25 PM	From the book: "Adventurers naturally want to know where to go to have a slain comrade raised from the dead. Fairhaven's most potent healer is ... (level 13 cleric). She'll perform Raise Dead immediately for 6000 gp in goods or coin as long as she's convinced that she's not raising a wanted criminal. Given 24 hours notice, she can cast Resurrection for 11000 gp in goods or coin." I think a lot of you without the book are jumping to conclusions. Read that paragraph, directly from the book. That screams against everything that has been said about raise dead in Eberron. Not only do adventurers want to know about her, and they do, since the book is practically advertising her, but she will cast the spell IMMEDIATELY. If you give her notice, she'll do you one better. And she accepts GOODS, not just coin. So you don't even have to sell things first, she'll just take them. It's ridiculous. Gee I didn't know characters were allowed to read the book. I mean I can see allwoing players to read the book but their characters that seems a but much.
Teron Gorefiend 07-09-05, 10:03 PM	I think the setting can handle and even benefit from the occasional NPC being able to raise dead, and after all, the altar of resurection was in the ECS from the first and the NPC is just as easily ignored for those so inclined. No, the problem to me is that this is a cleric with no religion! The exact wording is "channels divine power from the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above, so she's affiliated with no particular deity." This is stupid beyond stupid. It's the kind of stupid that make regular idiots sit up and take notice. She can't be a bloody cleric if she doesn't worship anything! Would it have been so hard to make her a follower of Kol Korran, or a worshiper of Boldrei who believes everyone is part of one big community, or something?! For the hell of it, in my campaign this character will be a lunatic Jorasco excoriate with all the magical power of an eyeless newt.
ekomega 07-10-05, 12:12 AM	Well, I decided today that in the BBEG's last rampage through the towers of Arcanix, he stopped in Fairhaven and axed this particular cleric. Problem solved. Also, his eldritch machine is powered by Altars of Resurrection and powerful Jorasco heirs, of which he needs many. So that is that for me.
PoeticJustice 07-10-05, 12:52 AM	Keith's Opinion, post 298 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=448885&page=10&pp=30) Keith's Eberron isn't everybody's, and that is perfectly fine, but I think he did well by envisioning the world as he did, and I intend to stick to that vision as close as I can. Death sucks, but that's why the gods aren't so popular in the first place! Some pissant halfling that flaunts the will of the universefor nothing more than gold all the while claiming to be a champion of a bloody asteroid belt isn't invited to my Eberron, and based on his post, isn't welcome in Keith's either. It is only one cleric, but one scar can still mar a face, one soldier turn a battle, and one pebble throw a full-grown man off-balance. The rule of economy is supply and demand, is it not? If this one halfling is profitable, then logically there must be others. How am I to explain to a party that death is a big deal merc clerics of this magnitude exist? I'm not saying they can't come back, but it isn't matter of throwing money at the problem. I don't for a moment think any arm-twisting was involved in the writing of this section. It makes no sense for some suit to care whether or not one can be raised from the dead in an imaginary reality. THink back to the Lyrandar Tower supplement for Sharn. The writer broke canon without even realizing simply because he didn't know the setting. I think it far more likely that something along those lines occurred. The only difference is that while the former only involved way more high level guards than appropriate, this latter issue has a real impact the face of the entire setting.
aelryinth 07-10-05, 01:04 AM	It has no effect on the setting. If a PC cleric was approached and offered 15k to resurrect someone notable who just died accidentally, and they said yes, does that break the setting? You can't just remove his clerical powers for lack of faith. His faith is just fine...it's YOUR beliefs he's trampling over, not his. And the reason the priest is a philosopher-priest is so people can't trot out the "Church says you can only do that for the faithful" argument. By tying her faith directly to her Dragonmark, those arguments are all neatly sidestepped...you can't argue against what she is doing against arguing against selling the power of ALL Dragonmarks. Brilliant. Exactly the way I'd have handled it. IT's the individual choice of the cleric involved. It's what it all comes down to. ==Aelryinth
The White Sorcerer 07-10-05, 01:43 AM	No, the problem to me is that this is a cleric with no religion! This is stupid beyond stupid. It's the kind of stupid that make regular idiots sit up and take notice. She can't be a bloody cleric if she doesn't worship anything! Eberron Campaign Setting, page 35: "You may also decide that your cleric has no deity but instead channels divine power from the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above." So this isn't a new thing. It has been a part of the setting ever since it was released.
The White Sorcerer 07-10-05, 01:45 AM	If this one halfling is profitable, then logically there must be others. Why yes! Of course! Because one Jorasco cleric of 13th level exists, there must obviously be others! Thank you for helping me see the light!
Twiggly the Gnome 07-10-05, 02:18 AM	Eberron Campaign Setting, page 35: "You may also decide that your cleric has no deity but instead channels divine power from the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above." So this isn't a new thing. It has been a part of the setting ever since it was released. The next sentence says - "Select two domains that reflect the cleric's spiritual inclination and abilities." It's not an out for min/max munchkins that can't be bothered to follow a transgressible ethos.
aelryinth 07-10-05, 02:29 AM	Wealth/Trade and Healing. Done. ==Aelryinth
Twiggly the Gnome 07-10-05, 03:12 AM	That's putting the cart before the horse. If the character followed something like a Khorvarian version of the Hippocratic Oath, with precepts that are to be adhered to or possibly violated, that I could accept. What you have in this case is the equivalent of a Forgotten Realms product with an NPC Cleric of a brand new god, and all your given is a couple of it's domains.
Korhal_IV 07-10-05, 03:18 AM	I am irritated by this too. I think, Aelryinth, what you're missing is that we're not so much irritated by the substance (there will certainly be 13th level clerics here and there) as by the style of the presentation. "Adventurers will certainly want to know," etc, etc. It's a metagame concern, one that breaks the game world's inner logic. If the Jorasco healer had been a secret of the house, whose services were sold only to certain favored allies, or a religious fanatic who had specific goals, like raising funds for a crusade or the ransom of a holy artifact, THAT would be something. Instead it's a Resurrect-o-Matic, you put your cash in and you get your respawn out. Ka-ching!
The White Sorcerer 07-10-05, 03:40 AM	"Adventurers will certainly want to know," Sure, but do they?
PoeticJustice 07-10-05, 11:54 AM	I agree wuth Korhal. The author has treated the subject far too flippantly for the campaign setting. Other than that, it's a good chapter in a good book, all things considered. Keep in mind, the two people mentioned in S:CoT that can raise the dead were given full writeups, not a sentence in passing reference. Keith or James knew it was a delicate subject and handled it so. This author didn't. That is what irks me. TWS-Keep in mind that cleric needn't be level thirteen, merely ninth. He may also be an adept rather than a cleric. Besides, opening the door by having this...thing means there's a possibility of others existing. Why Fairhaven? Why not in Karrlakton, at Jorasco HQ? Why not in Sharn? Becuase the author treats them like they're already there. Morons who don't know any better are going to look at that book and expect a res-o-matic. That's what irks me. Aelryinth, you're stubborn as a bull and I have no hopes of changing your opinion. Fine. Whatever. It's perfectly fine to sell miracles and exploit divine favor for nothing more than your own petty gain. After all, it's hard to lose cleric powers for lack of faith when you only have faith in dollar signs to begin with...
Siran Dunmorgan 07-10-05, 12:05 PM	I agree wuth Korhal. The author has treated the subject far too flippantly for the campaign setting. Other than that, it's a good chapter in a good book, all things considered. Keep in mind, the two people mentioned in S:CoT that can raise the dead were given full writeups, not a sentence in passing reference. Keith or James knew it was a delicate subject and handled it so. This author didn't. That is what irks me. This author—I'm assuming the same author wrote the whole Aundair section—also neglected the fact that Eberron has multiple moons in describing the Crying Fields, and that intermarriage between the Dragonmarked Houses is forbidden when describing the ongoing Lords of Dust plot in Passage, and, of course, Adal is rather different in class levels and alignment from what we saw in the Eberron Campaign Setting. Not to mention adding a fair number of 10th level or higher NPCs. Now, don't misunderstand—I like most of this material; the sections concerning Whisper Rock and the Royal Eyes are marvelous, and all of it is well-written, but it does some violence to the integrity of the setting to have these 'fluffy' continuity issues. —Siran Dunmorgan
JohnnyONeal 07-10-05, 01:27 PM	It seems like people are getting a little too agitated on both sides of this argument. I sympathize with people who have a problem with this. One of the characteristic qualities of the Eberron campaign setting is that the people of Khorvaire have a practical, worldly, capitalistic view of arcane magic. But almost as crucial to the setting is the idea that divine magic is miraculous and mysterious. There are fewer high-level divine casters than in "standard D&D" and those casters are expected to use their magic in a very idealistic way. (In my own Eberron campaigns, powerful divine magic isn't even granted on a predictable day-by-day basis like arcane magic. If you're not doing something dramatic -- the kind of stuff you earn experience for -- then you'll only have access to the simplest magic to aid the faithful. I feel this fits the rules and flavor of the setting, and it keeps characters from wondering why they can't gain thousands of gold pieces for resurrecting people during downtime between adventures.) I would have a serious problem with this if the healer in question were involved in one of Eberron's major religions. But having one powerful House Jorasco healer works because Jorasco rides the middle ground: they heal people, but they use dragonmark magic, which is neither arcane nor divine. They draw power from Siberys, which is a source of both arcane and divine magic. A cleric like this is an extreme oddity that I'd hate to see as a precedent-setter, but having one such character fits within the boundaries of the world. One last note: If one of my PCs wanted to be a House Jorasco cleric with the Commerce/Healing domains, I'd let them, but I'd require a fairly strong belief system to be driving their actions. Whether they're some sort of spiritual capitalist or they're simply ultra-committed to their family, they'd need to show me that their magic was willfull and passionate rather than intellectual and calculating.
Sarlax 07-10-05, 01:42 PM	Here is the key to understanding this cleric: She is not simply selling her incredible divine power to be rich. She sells her power because that is the highest commandment of her personal faith. Her faith revolves around her own nature as a dragonmarked creature and specifically as a Jorasco heir. She was marked by Eberron itself and empowered to be an incredible healer. If it were wrong for Jorasco to accept money for healing, why would any of them be given such remarkable powers? The spiritual forces that are the very foundation of the world empowered the dragonmarked to bear their power in the form of merchant houses. For millenia, the Jorasco halflings have been healers. For at least fifteen centuries they have been selling their services, providing as much healing as they can. This is clearly the path that has been set for their family since before the age of Galifar. It seems to me to be perfectly reasonable to build a personal religion around these ideas.
greatfrito 07-10-05, 01:56 PM	Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the book, but from what I've read here, the situation seems a bit open-ended as is. See, for example, in our game, what Five Nations failed to mention was that this certain member of House Jorasco has very friendly dealings with several of the Inspired ambassadors from Riedra - in fact, this certain member of House Jorasco has been irreversably tainted by the beliefs of the Dreaming Dark - not "Mind-Seed"-ed, but Charmed, Dominated, and just overall convinced that the Dreaming Dark is the manifestation of the will of Syberis. Because of this, she has agreed to Ressurect -anyone- who can pay, but the actual ritual must be done in the private of a specific sancuary. What she doesn't tell anyone is that one of her "friends" from the Dreaming Dark is given access to the individual even as the ressurection is just being completed. In the case of highly influential people (nobles, lords, etc.) the Dreaming Dark simply "Mind-Seed"s the subject, placing their spies and sabateurs throughout the political system of Khorvaire. For less influential people, several "Mind Probes" for useful information are usually the only things that occur. In either instance, the manifesting of teh powers is done before the subject regains conciousness, and he never learns of what went on. Also, if that's a bit much, I think people need to re-read the description of Dolurrh. The entrapping quality requires a Will save every day (Eberron day, that is) or the character loses all of his memories, and all of his will to leave that place. The DC is 15 + The Number of Days in Dolurrh. Not too many people are going to be able to make that, and it means that after the first day, you'll be hard-pressed to bring -anyone- back from the dead. Now, it says that this process can be reversed... but that's only with a Wish or Miracle - not common things in -any- setting, let alone Eberron.
Streamweaver 07-10-05, 01:56 PM	The whole issue of how death is suppose to fit into DnD is a big one and really beyond this thread. I think the real soltion is the DM needs to sit down and decide on how they want raise dead to fit into their campaign and just go with that, modifying materials as needed. At best all source material will get you in the general area of something, but the DM will always have to do a final fitting before putting it into play. This is just one of those cases.
Twiggly the Gnome 07-10-05, 04:25 PM	One last note: If one of my PCs wanted to be a House Jorasco cleric with the Commerce/Healing domains, I'd let them, but I'd require a fairly strong belief system to be driving their actions. Whether they're some sort of spiritual capitalist or they're simply ultra-committed to their family, they'd need to show me that their magic was willfull and passionate rather than intellectual and calculating. Exactly, for me that's the key point. Every time someone (either player or game designer) creates a Cleric character that "channels divine power from the spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above", the are in effect creating a new Eberron religion. The burden is on them to divise a balanced spiritual ethos with clearly defined proscribed and circumscribed behaviors. From what I've seen this character fails in that regard. :(
PoeticJustice 07-10-05, 05:03 PM	Here is the key to understanding this cleric: She is not simply selling her incredible divine power to be rich. She sells her power because that is the highest commandment of her personal faith. So basically her religion is 'good health for those who can afford it'? I sure hope this cleric isn't of good alignment...
Sarlax 07-10-05, 05:31 PM	So basically her religion is 'good health for those who can afford it'? I sure hope this cleric isn't of good alignment... Are you joking? That's how the entire Jorasco family operates. They heal anyone who can pay.
makeshiftwings 07-10-05, 05:57 PM	I am irritated by this too. I think, Aelryinth, what you're missing is that we're not so much irritated by the substance (there will certainly be 13th level clerics here and there) as by the style of the presentation. "Adventurers will certainly want to know," etc, etc. It's a metagame concern, one that breaks the game world's inner logic. If the Jorasco healer had been a secret of the house, whose services were sold only to certain favored allies, or a religious fanatic who had specific goals, like raising funds for a crusade or the ransom of a holy artifact, THAT would be something. Instead it's a Resurrect-o-Matic, you put your cash in and you get your respawn out. Ka-ching! Exactly! I wouldn't have a problem with it if she was given some background and there were some kind of plot and quest attached to her. Instead, it seems like the author had worked on FR products previously, hadn't really read through the ECS much, and just thought "Oh, it would be cool if i put a really cheap resurrector in here". Everyone's replies of "well, in your campaign, just do this..." or "how do you know that really she isn't this..." are useless because we of course all know we can change whatever we want; we are talking about the information presented in the book itself. Are you joking? That's how the entire Jorasco family operates. They heal anyone who can pay. Yeah, but they don't get their entire power from intense faith in an abstract good overdeity and the firm belief that what they're doing is for the good of the world. The main problem is that the ECS specifically says that Resurrection should be hard to come by, and one of its "excuses" for why this is is that only rare high-ranking clerics of churches can do it, and they only do it for the faithful. Now they toss in a cleric who doesn't even belong to a church, has absolutely no actual faith or ethics (besides "sell ressurrection, make money, don't get arrested for ressurrecting criminals"), and is willing to sell the spells dirt cheap instead of at least cornering the market like you'd expect Jorasco to do. Plus, she's presented so that if the players say "Oh no, we need to get someone ressurrected," the DM is supposed to say "Oh, no problem, the cheapest one is right here. No questions asked, just pay 1000 gold plus cost." Again, you could say "well, in MY campaign, the dm doesn't HAVE to answer", but that's not how the information is presented. It's pretty clear that the author meant for this to be common knowledge that anybody asking around would know about.
MysticTheurge 07-10-05, 06:04 PM	Everyone's replies of "well, in your campaign, just do this..." or "how do you know that really she isn't this..." are useless because we of course all know we can change whatever we want; we are talking about the information presented in the book itself. What's in the book isn't going to change. So either change it in your game, interpret it differently or deal with what was printed.
talion09 07-10-05, 06:28 PM	<snip> Also, if that's a bit much, I think people need to re-read the description of Dolurrh. The entrapping quality requires a Will save every day (Eberron day, that is) or the character loses all of his memories, and all of his will to leave that place. The DC is 15 + The Number of Days in Dolurrh. Not too many people are going to be able to make that, and it means that after the first day, you'll be hard-pressed to bring -anyone- back from the dead. Now, it says that this process can be reversed... but that's only with a Wish or Miracle - not common things in -any- setting, let alone Eberron. This is an important point. Keep in mind also the travel time to Fairhaven from where the PC was slain. Say it takes a week to get there, assuming that the PC died somewhere convenient, like a Lightning Rail station. Now you have to make consecutive DC 15, DC 16, DC 17, DC 18, DC 19, DC 20, DC 21 and DC 22 Will saves. Fail a single one and you are toast, your soul has decided to embrace oblivion. Now if your character died somewhere less convenient, like Xendrik... well, have fun making 20+ consecutive Will saves, lol The time factor makes ressurection less powerful... sure, if the body is mangled enough you need it instead of raise dead, but there isn't the issue of raising King Jarot from the dead or anything like that. --- Ok, the travel time is less a factor for groups that are high enough level to teleport, but that time you could raise dead/ressurect yourself, so its a bit of a moot point. -- Now, its more of an issue if there are 13th level clerics like this in every town, but unless the book explicitly says so, that is up to the DM. --- And while I wouldn't presume to speak for Hellcow, I'll quote the following from Sharn Cot, pg 20-21, from the Healing section. "... Even among the followers of the Host, using raise dead is viewed as a challenge to the will and wisdom of the gods. This does not mean that there is no hope for heroes that fall in battle - but it is not a matter of tossing 5450 GP at the local priest. Only a few people in the city can raise the dead, so finding one of them is the first step. The Dragonmark of Healing can only help the living, but the Great Healing Hall in Dragon Towers employs two adepts, both priests of Boldrei, capable of casting Raise Dead. Other people capable of casting the spell - including Archhierophant Ythana Morr (Silver Flame), High Priest Phthaso Mogan (Sovreign Host), Mayne Jhaelian of Shaes Lias (Undying Court), and Lan Hazal (Blood of Vol) - rarely have the time or desire to deal with the needs of adventurers.<snip>" So here is the way I took that section in combination with the Doloruth section in the ECS. The two Boldrei Adepts (presumably Jorasco Heirs) who work in the Jorasco healing hall in Sharn ARE willing to cast Raise Dead for cash... what is more important to them, their faith in the will of the Host, or their heritage and upbringing as Jorasco heirs? However, they want the cash up front, and they won't refund if the soul refuses to return (fails the consecutive will saves). If the soul fails a will save, then it was the will of the Host, it was your time, etc. And I would hardly consider the two highest level adepts of House Jorasco in Khorvaire's largest and most metropolitan city to be the "local priest"... and I also wouldn't necessarily charge the straight book price for it either.
makeshiftwings 07-10-05, 06:58 PM	I'd like to restate that forcing someone to make Dolurrh will saves when casting ressurrection or raise dead would be a HOUSE RULE. By the books, the Dolurrh effect only happens to living creatures who physically enter the plane. I f the Dolurrh effect was supposed to be taken into account any time someone cast a raise dead, they would have specifically mentioned it in the ECS.
Hair Wax 07-10-05, 07:06 PM	Technically it doesn't say physical. It just says 'visitors'. If Dollurrh is some sort of purgatory before a next step then the soul would be visiting. It also says 'any non-native' must make a saving throw, and the soul won't be native to Dollurrh whether physical or not.
phoenxhwk 07-10-05, 07:46 PM	Technically it doesn't say physical. It just says 'visitors'. If Dollurrh is some sort of purgatory before a next step then the soul would be visiting. It also says 'any non-native' must make a saving throw, and the soul won't be native to Dollurrh whether physical or not. Hmm yeah, that's a tough one. It seems easy enough to interpret it either way. You should drop this one into the Ask Keith thread!
aelryinth 07-10-05, 09:03 PM	Visitors are people who are not natives of the place AND are not supposed to be there. Dead souls certainly ARE supposed to be there. Dollurh's effect is meaningless to the dead. The rules for resurrection and raise dead are as they are. I like the 'buffy the vampire slayer season 6' example for resurrectng someone dead a long time, or the Villains Reborn from DC...if you had died and gone to Hell, and gotten resurrected, wouldn't you try to do anything you could not to go back? Turned a new leaf over for a lot of the Rogues Gallery for the Flash...at least until they wrote off the effect and made their 'goodness' part of being brainwashed by the Top... I'm afraid this whole thing is a non-issue. A Gather Information check in any adventurer's guild will pop up the name of the healer who can resurrect. Fine. By the time the party can afford her reasonably, their own cleric or artificer can do the job for less or for free...and they still have to reach her from wherever they are. It is a total non-issue unless you are adventuring at low levels in Fairhaven. As I said before, if you have a problem with this, what do you do when your 9th level cleric can 'break the setting'? When your 13th level cleric can do it? The player can justify it..."line MY pockets with that gold???? Not hardly, it's all going to support the construction of homes in New Cyre!" "I'm building orphanages for war orphans with the money!" "I fund a collection of soup kitchens and training programs for the unemployed with the money!" "Three orders of knighthood are finally getting new masterwork blades because of that coin!" "I'm a priest of GOOD, and I'm returning a hero to the battle...if he is willing. Where, exactly, is there a moral conflict, sir?" The crux of the whole situation boils down to...if you don't like it, don't start your bloody adventure area in Fairhaven. That's it. Done. At higher levels, her ability is irrelevant. The ability to raise the dead and resurrect is known in the setting...it is NOT restricted to clerics...it CAN be paid for...and it STILL is not used often because of the cost involved, and the issues surrounding it. It did NOT suddenly become more common because someone is published who does this. It is the same as before, only now you have a name and a place. As for style/presentation issues...I'm not the author, go beat on him. From a mechanics standpoint, all he did is stick a pin on the map for something that was already in the game. 'See that, go there for this.' That's it. ===Aelryinth
PoeticJustice 07-10-05, 09:58 PM	Are you joking? That's how the entire Jorasco family operates. They heal anyone who can pay. But they aren't clerics, fool! Name one other cleric in the house. Go on. The freakin matriarch is just a bleedin' adept! Kurala of Clifftop is an adept! That means you have to be level 16 to raise, you never get the really good spells, and resurrection's out of the question. Adepts can mess around with healing magic. That's fine. Adpets are supposed to scrubs anyway. But whereas an adept of Olladra is given a few spells a day through prayer and meditation, a cleric is given the weapons of her faith to advance a spiritual cause. I doubt the cause the pursuit of something as ephemeral and secular as money. As such, they don't have a place in mercantile houses
Sarlax 07-10-05, 11:29 PM	The main problem is that the ECS specifically says that Resurrection should be hard to come by. Where? That's in Sharn, but the ECS?
makeshiftwings 07-10-05, 11:36 PM	As I said before, if you have a problem with this, what do you do when your 9th level cleric can 'break the setting'? When your 13th level cleric can do it? ===Aelryinth Well, in my opinion, player characters are allowed... infact, supposed to... break the setting. Eberron's set up so that the PC's can become huge heroes who have an enormous impact on the world. If for some reason that means selling Ressurrections, then that's fine, though in my campaigns I usually don't give PCs too much downtime to set up shop and sell their services for months at a time. The cleric in the game is sort of an issue both in game and metagame senses. In-game because now all players have a cheap (only 1000gp more than casting it yourself cheap) way to rez. Metagame because the idea of a non-aligned cleric who will ressurrect absolutely anyone who isn't a wanted criminal for cheap brings up the question of why people in Eberron aren't going and getting ressurrected there all the time.
aelryinth 07-10-05, 11:41 PM	As I said....the raise/resurrect issue has been covered in detail. It's in the ECS...the reasons and the wherefore. Keith has covered it. ALL ALONG, the wealthy could 'buy' resurrection. Artificers WILL sell the scroll. Jorasco has the altars. The setting hasn't exploded. Don't make it more then it is. ===Aelryinth
Sarlax 07-10-05, 11:43 PM	But they aren't clerics, fool! The insults aren't necessary. If you can't be civil, don't come to the boards. Name one other cleric in the house. Go on. The freakin matriarch is just a bleedin' adept! What's the difference? Adepts and clerics are both individuals who manifest divine power because of their intense faith. The difference between the two isn't the degree of their devotion - it's that clerics have training in combat and can channel positive or negative energy (see ECS 256). The typical Jorasco healer is an adept. They all sell their divine power for cash. And most aren't channelers of the remnants of Siberys. They are priests of Olladra. This cleric in Aundair is doing the exact same thing that pretty much every other healer in House Jorasco does - sells her divine power for cash in the name of the House. The only difference is that she's better at it than the rest.
Brastan 07-11-05, 12:07 AM	Stepping back to look at the bigger question here for a moment. May are mightily upset with this and I can understand for good reasons. Project this out over the next few supplements, if 'slips' like this become more common it will become a problem. I had thought that the message had been clearly give when the Sharn Web Enhancement was blasted here. Evidently someone didn't get the memo when they worked on the Aundair chapter. This, I believe, is what has gotten people so upset. The setting can take one or two oopses but not many more after that. I suspect that it is time to log another letter of complaint as to reinforce the communities view on this matter. I suspect that we can all agree that another entry like this would be detrimental to the setting and its sales. I've weighted in with my position on this topic before but I'd like to point out that I personally would have missed that entry in the book for weeks if not months had this not come up. I would surmise that it might have been missed during the final editing process. Wizards has been keeping their D&D staffers busy it seems. This is however not much of an excuse and at the very least deserves official acknowledgment.
talion09 07-11-05, 12:30 AM	<snip>...Metagame because the idea of a non-aligned cleric who will ressurrect absolutely anyone who isn't a wanted criminal for cheap brings up the question of why people in Eberron aren't going and getting ressurrected there all the time. Say the cleric is booked solid and always uses her maximum allowed uses of Raise Dead/Ressurection... 365 days a year. Call it 1000 times a year for the sake of convenience. Assuming that you are using the Dolurath effect, figure that at least half the people using the service will fail the will save, even if brought to the cleric within a day of death. I don't see a lot of wealthy aristocrats and merchants making multiple DC 15+ will saves. So call it maybe 500 people a year that are ressurected/raise dead successfully by this cleric in Fairhaven. I don't think that is gamebreaking, given the number of people who live in Khorvaire. Besides, if you are playing pulp, then as Keith has said, you might need to make this service available to PC's to encourage the over the top action. And if you are playing noir, then having the rich and powerful parts of society taking advantage of and monopolizing a powerful service beyond the grasp of the common folk... that is certainly noir in my mind. --- On the issue of rich folk monopolizing the fairhaven Jorasco and therefore being a gamebreaking effect in Eberron... well, that certainly screws over the players, doesn't it? In most campaigns, I'm pretty sure that given the choice between using the limited spells per day to bring back either an adventurer, or a noble, then the Jorasco Administrator's are going to give priority to the noble, right? House Jorasco didn't get to be rich and powerful by being stupid, and I'm sure they would give priority to the rich, and to other Dragonmark Houses (call it professional courtesy). So just because there is someone there who can cast raise dead/ressurection doesn't mean she is sitting there just waiting to work her magic on dead adventurers. And if some noble comes in with his dead son and finds out that he has to wait another day to get a raise dead because some low-born adventurer got the last one of the day... well, lets just say there would be hell to pay if the noble's raise dead wasn't successful. And just like in real life, I'm pretty sure rich, famous and influential people will skip the queue, leaving the surviving PC's sitting in the waiting room with the corpse of their fallen comrade as their "operation" gets cancelled or delayed.
PoeticJustice 07-11-05, 12:36 AM	As I said....the raise/resurrect issue has been covered in detail. It's in the ECS...the reasons and the wherefore. Keith has covered it. ALL ALONG, the wealthy could 'buy' resurrection. Artificers WILL sell the scroll. Jorasco has the altars. The setting hasn't exploded. Don't make it more then it is. ===Aelryinth You've conveniantly ignored the part where raising the dead is tantamount to challanging the will of the gods (which is bad). And the fact that Keith was speaking hypothetically in criticism of the idea on AKB, rather than suggesting that every King on Khorvaire has a 'life ensurance' policy. No, the setting didn't explode, but that stitch is starting to fray. If this continues, it will tear. Then another stitch will fray. And as far as adepts and clerics go, adepts use both divine and arcane spells and also have familiars. They are not clerics on the cheap, no more than magewrights, and without that transparancy the restrictions that apply to other clerics go away. If you'll (Sarlax) refer me to the page where it says that most Jorasco Halflings are priests of Olladra I will eat crow, however. That brings up another issue. What's Molly McHalfling Healer doing with PC levels anyway? The Blood of Vol priest from Sharn was a level 18 Adept, and the matriarch is also an adept, albeit a dragonmark heir as well. I apologize for my rudeness earlier. As an act of contrition, I'll admit that I just found another Jorasco Cleric. She's stationed at Fort Bones. She's level 5, which is tolerable, but I still think she should be an adept with a wand.
talion09 07-11-05, 12:49 AM	<snip>That brings up another issue. What's Molly McHalfling Healer doing with PC levels anyway? The Blood of Vol priest from Sharn was a level 18 Adept, and the matriarch is also an adept, albeit a dragonmark heir as well.<snip> Why not have PC levels? I agree that most of the Jorasco are either adepts or experts, but as a "star" of house Jorasco, she is surely an exceptional person. And who better to have PC levels than an exceptional person? After all, do you expect 100% of the non-PC's to have NPC levels only? There will be exceptional people, therefore having PC classes and/or mid-high levels, in Khorvaire besides the PC's. I'd say one of the few people in the setting to be able to bring back the dead qualifies her as exceptional.
The White Sorcerer 07-11-05, 01:00 AM	And as far as adepts and clerics go, adepts use both divine and arcane spells and also have familiars. Adepts only use divine spells.
The White Sorcerer 07-11-05, 01:26 AM	Some thoughts on the issue: One out of ten people fall into the wealthy category, those with access to a few thousand gold pieces at any given time. This class includes merchant lords, barons of commerce, the patriarchs and matriarchs of the dragonmarked families, the most popular and successful artisans, mid- to high-level adventurers, and the ruling royalty. How much exactly is a "few" thousand gold pieces, I don't know. But I think it's mostly less than 10,000, making the 13-day time limit an issue for most. And consider this: A customer brings his loved one to Molly McHalfling Healer, and pays for a resurrection (11,000 gp). But his loved one has decided that "Nah, I don't feel like returning," for whatever reason. The spell fails, and the word spreads: "I spent 1,100 dragons to resurrect my hubby, and got nothing!" This will definately drop the amount of customers. EDIT: Oh, and on the issue of resurrecting King Jarot: What good would it do? Galifar has already fallen. It might not even reveal the cause of his death.
PoeticJustice 07-11-05, 01:55 AM	EDIT: Oh, and on the issue of resurrecting King Jarot: What good would it do? Galifar has already fallen. It might not even reveal the cause of his death. This is somewhat unrelated, but I don't believe you can bring back those who die of old age. Then again, nobody ever said Jarot died that way... Now. in DMG it says one man can live like a noble for 200 gp a month. This doesn't include maintaining an estate. A family of five, not including random matinence to the manor, spends a thousand gold per month. It's not out of the ballpark to blow a year's living on a needful splurge. We do it in the real mworld when faced with medical emergencies. Sure, it only covers a tenth of the population, but when you've got the entire world market cornered, people will come to you in droves. Gold buying virtual immortality? It's the dream of the ages. Why shouldn't Molly McHalfling Healer get swamped if she doesn't care about spiting the gods or anything?
talion09 07-11-05, 02:17 AM	<snip>... It is only one cleric, but one scar can still mar a face, one soldier turn a battle, and one pebble throw a full-grown man off-balance. The rule of economy is supply and demand, is it not? If this one halfling is profitable, then logically there must be others. ...<snip> Because one 13th level cleric exists, and makes a tidy profit for House Jorasco, there must logically be others due to supply and demand? I don't think the House Jorasco leaders look at the annual reports and say "Well, the Fairhaven franchise is breaking all sorts of records! We'd better order up some more of those 13th level clerics to improve our bottom line next year!" I'd say that sort of logic is far more dangerous to Eberron's feel than a single House Jorasco affiliated cleric who has the ability to raise dead, and does so for cash.
PoeticJustice 07-11-05, 02:30 AM	Because one 13th level cleric exists, and makes a tidy profit for House Jorasco, there must logically be others due to supply and demand? I don't think the House Jorasco leaders look at the annual reports and say "Well, the Fairhaven franchise is breaking all sorts of records! We'd better order up some more of those 13th level clerics to improve our bottom line next year!" I'd say that sort of logic is far more dangerous to Eberron's feel than a single House Jorasco affiliated cleric who has the ability to raise dead, and does so for cash. If there's a demand and cash involved, there will be a way. Molly didn't get that powerful overnight, and when they formulate how indeed she became that powerful, what's to stop them from replicating the process with all the resources at their disposal?
talion09 07-11-05, 02:52 AM	If there's a demand and cash involved, there will be a way. Molly didn't get that powerful overnight, and when they formulate how indeed she became that powerful, what's to stop them from replicating the process with all the resources at their disposal? What is to stop Vol from training/creating other Elf/Half-dragon Lich Wizard 16's? Or Lhesh Haruuc from training all his 82,460 subjects in Rhukaan Draal to also be Fighter 12/Rogue 2 heroes? Why hasn't Mordain the Fleshweaver trained a whole host of other 18th level Transmuter specialist wizards? It is because they are exceptional people, far above the norm in their potential and abilities. Keep in mind how experience and levels are supposed to work in Eberron according to Hellcow's view (and presumably the other designers of the ECS) NPCs don't gain experience the same as PCs. PCs gain experience from the doing of deeds, and there is no cap on their potential advancement other than DM whim and/or their own mortality. NPCs don't gain levels and/or experience in the same way PC's do. They rise through life to reach their innate potential, and thats pretty much it. A 20 year veteran of the last war might only be a warrior 2, but a 10 year veteran who is a member of the Redcloak battalion might be an 8th level warrior, because of the difference in their potentials. It isn't a matter of House Jorasco looking at her life and then training/brainwashing other clerics in their House to follow that path. Any other clerics will rise to their own innate potential. Anyways, Keith put this a lot more succinctly than I did, check out the first Ask Keith FAQ or the Dragonshard archives. --- I'm not saying that there might not be another cleric 13 in House Jorasco, or even possibly a higher level cleric. I am saying that it is quite ludicrous to assume that because there is one such NPC, that House Jorasco will start churning 13th level clerics out of an assembly line style academy to improve their bottom line. Aside from the complete deviation from the concept of Eberron's demographics, if they could actually do so, why haven't they already? Has it not occured to the House in their 1500+ year history that more high powered clerics/adepts are better than less? For that matter, why don't they just breed a whole regiment of Siberys or Greater Marks, instead of having all those lowly least marks that don't become any better? EDIT: Keith's dragonshard article on Eberron's Demographics, one of the very first. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040712a
Mr. Wilson 07-11-05, 02:53 AM	Edit: So yeah, the post ahead of mine beat me to the punch, but I agree with what the poster stated.
PoeticJustice 07-11-05, 03:43 AM	Snip All quite true. I bow to your superior arguement.
ekomega 07-11-05, 03:50 AM	In most campaigns, I'm pretty sure that given the choice between using the limited spells per day to bring back either an adventurer, or a noble, then the Jorasco Administrator's are going to give priority to the noble, right? Well, if I was this particular halfling, and a man came in wearing mithril full plate covered in ogre blood with a shining, glowing greatsword covered in troll blood, dragging a charred corpse in with him, and somehow he produced 11,000 gp, I would guess he was nobility. Doesn't matter what he looks like or if he is an "adventurer", no one can just come up with that kind of money. It's out of the realm of possibility for anyone but the nobility. And so this noble adventures, doesn't mean he's less noble. Are you going to ask him if he's in a dragonmarked family or if he's one of Sharn's Sixty? He has the money, it came from somewhere, and you don't want anyone powerful to hate you. Plus, that's fancy armor AND it has other creatures' blood on it. Possibly powerful creatures. That's where me as the cleric would take the money and keep my mouth shut. Back on topic, I don't think anyone is saying this cleric is "game breaking". I'm not. Words I'd use to describe the situation are: absurd, irritating, problematic, frustrating, and stupid. A lot of frustrating. The whole point of Eberron was to be self-consistent, and they already ruined that in the 4th book (contradicting FN and S:CoT). What was the point of having a campaign setting search and throwing loads of money at Keith if they are just going to turn the world into another FR? Anyone could think of airships and trains for DnD. That's not anything. Not a clever idea. The thing that I think makes Eberron special is the pulp noir vision and specific setting details and ideas that Keith has/had for it. Part of that is the rarity of raise dead and the like. Otherwise, how is Eberron any different than another setting with trains and airships? You can't just throw out the details that make something unique. Some people are equally upset about the Phantom Knights. I don't agree, but I can where they come from. It's really about the same thing. Some things were said, we believed them, and then they turned it around, and we'd really like things to stay the way they were. Why make the DMs and people who purchase your products (consumers) have to go through hurdles to make sense of the ideas and story you are putting together? Why? Especially when I'm paying $30+. I don't pay $30 to get a headache, usually. Whether or not this character or this PrC violates the vision of Eberron is questionable at best, and completely open to interpretation, but the fact that it is questionable at all is a big deal. It shouldn't be questionable. I shouldn't have to read a sourcebook and figure out if something belongs in my game because it was poorly written or poorly thought out. In future products, I'd like to see less of this, but that'll never happen unless people say things. Somehow WoTC still can't seem to find capable editors, for whatever reason, despite everyone's complaints about that (that's a whole other rant).
RagingDemon 07-11-05, 10:01 AM	I totally agree with ekomega! Although I don' t find that 13th lvl cleric 100% bad, I don' t want... I demand, that when I pay €30+ for a book, that it is compliant with any other material already presented, especially if this material comes from the game' s designer, whether WotC owns the setting or not! If the company thinks it can tweak the game in any way wanted, then they must have at least asked Keith at first. Was Keith asked or submitted guidelines on Five Nations? If not, then why bothering paying him while WotC can make/tweak the setting on their own?
DarkWarriorKarg 07-11-05, 10:27 AM	I totally agree with ekomega! Although I don' t find that 13th lvl cleric 100% bad, I don' t want... I demand, that when I pay €30+ for a book, that it is compliant with any other material already presented, especially if this material comes from the game' s designer, whether WotC owns the setting or not! If the company thinks it can tweak the game in any way wanted, then they must have at least asked Keith at first. Was Keith asked or submitted guidelines on Five Nations? If not, then why bothering paying him while WotC can make/tweak the setting on their own? They could use a continuity editor.
Brastan 07-11-05, 11:15 AM	They could use a continuity editor. Seconded with much gusto! I would guess he was nobility. Doesn't matter what he looks like or if he is an "adventurer", no one can just come up with that kind of money. It's out of the realm of possibility for anyone but the nobility. Doesn't matter, she needs to be convinced that your not bring back a criminal. I don't think there are many people on Khorvaire who could pull standing or rank on her. I stress this as it appears to be her only condition for her service aside from the payment. As there is no interpretation of how strict she is we DMs are free to make it as nasty a validation process as possible they like. Personally I might consider something like some of the old Department of Motor Vehicle stereotypes in the US. There should be tons of paper work with Kundark arcane marks plastered all over them. Push that 13 day limit to the breaking point. (BTW, she actually charges slightly more than market value for the spells)
Kryptonian Scion 07-11-05, 11:52 AM	The whole point of Eberron was to be self-consistent, and they already ruined that in the 4th book (contradicting FN and S:CoT). "Ruined" is a little heavy-handed, don't you think? I don't LIKE the off-handed mention of a 13th level cleric raising the dead and offering resurrections at bargain rates, either. However, one paragraph in an otherwise incredible supplement doesn't ruin the setting. The best way to look at this, in my opinion, is that there is no detail to the NPC. In a way, this sucks because it is so flippant and relaxed about the presence of this merchant of life. On the other hand, it is much easier to just throw this character out and not worry about it conflicting with future canon. This Jorasco cleric will never be an integral part of the Eberron campaign setting, and it is quite unlikely that we will ever hear mention of her again. There is also the matter of players who actually enjoy having the option for raise dead and resurrection readily available in their game. To those of us that like hardcore, dramatic death scenes and funerals in our D&D sessions with no hope for redemption from the grave, this NPC sucks. For those who prefer the PCs in their party live on after a heinous battle with the campaign villain (seriously - how many of you have NOT had to drop an incredibly cool character-driven plot because he died at low level?), this simple, one-paragraph blurb is helpful in granting a place for such business. I originally posted complaining about this, simply because I don't want it to become commonplace. I in no way whatsoever feel that it has ruined Eberron, and I am still frothing at the mouth for the Adventurer's Handbook and Magic of Eberron. -KS
ekomega 07-11-05, 01:18 PM	I merely meant that they had ruined continuity and self-consistency, not Eberron. I still love Eberron and think it's great. Personally I might consider something like some of the old Department of Motor Vehicle stereotypes in the US. There should be tons of paper work with Kundark arcane marks plastered all over them. Push that 13 day limit to the breaking point. My players would murder me if I did something like that. It's like that line from the Simpsons, uttered by Patty/Selma (from memory), "Some days we don't let the line move at all. We call those weekdays." They would never forgive me. I think her "no criminals" line was only added to give her some flavor, since without that she has absolutely none. I'll give you that she has some interest in who the PC is, and she could be full of herself given the miracles she's performing. But that's a huge amount of cash.
makeshiftwings 07-11-05, 04:24 PM	I look at it this way: if a bunch of random people on the internet who are just fans of the setting, and not getting paid, can consistently find gaping holes in the continuity of the supplements, then WotC is doing a really shoddy job. The quality control at WotC has been going downhill for a while now, and it's really starting to annoy me. It seems like they don't have anyone proofread anything, and they consistently hire authors to write things without even requiring them to read the background material. Honestly, how much trouble would it be to read and study the ECS and a few Dragonshards before working on a new sourcebook? Especially when you're getting paid to do it, and it's your full time job, unlike all of us on the message boards who just read the books in our spare time.
DavidB 07-11-05, 05:21 PM	Stepping back to look at the bigger question here for a moment. May are mightily upset with this and I can understand for good reasons. Project this out over the next few supplements, if 'slips' like this become more common it will become a problem. I had thought that the message had been clearly give when the Sharn Web Enhancement was blasted here. Evidently someone didn't get the memo when they worked on the Aundair chapter. I think this idea of yours takes to many liberties. After all the Eberron Setting is the property of Wizards of the Coast and maybe the "memo" got though loud and clear. Maybe these are not "slips". After all, it is a proven fact that those who do not like something will be more vocal than those who do like it. Maybe the "memo" was just ignored.
Sarlax 07-11-05, 05:56 PM	If you'll (Sarlax) refer me to the page where it says that most Jorasco Halflings are priests of Olladra I will eat crow, however. ECS 233. Typical House Jorasco Healer: Halfling Adept 3 (Olladra). So, to reiterate: It's been Eberron canon since the ECS that Jorasco has plenty of divine spellcasters who sell their healing magic. And before anyone rushes to suggest that these healers are only charging for the dragonmark abilities and not their divine magic, read the typical healer entry closely. It doesn't have the dragonmark. That means that when this healer charges 8 GP for Cure Light Wounds, he's casting a divine spell for cash. Again: the cleric in Aundair is doing exactly the same kind of thing that most Jorasco divine spellcasters do. She's just a lot better at it.
BuddyL33 07-11-05, 05:58 PM	Is that it? If so, that sets a horrible example. If a player of a cleric can't tell me what a character believes in and why the character believes it, I would strongly advise them to consider playing a wizard. :rant: Maybe you shouldn't be DMing Eberron then. A cleric doesn't have to believe in a deity to gain Clerical power. Take a look at a Cleric of the Undying Court. His divine power comes directly from the collective of the court. Keith actually stated this in one of the AKB threads. In the case of the Jorasco halfing, she draws her power directly from the Dragon Above. How or why? Well it's Eberron, there's lots of mystery. That's up to the DM to decide. Why does this specific halfing have a special connection with the power of the Dragon Above? Anything can be a source of Divine Power in Eberron.
DavidB 07-11-05, 06:09 PM	Name one other cleric in the house. Go on. I am happy to oblige. The name of another cleric in House Jorasco is Sanjaen d'Jorasco. She happens to be the cleric that staffs the infirmary at Fort Bones. Page 116 in Five Nations.
phoenxhwk 07-11-05, 08:50 PM	I look at it this way: if a bunch of random people on the internet who are just fans of the setting, and not getting paid, can consistently find gaping holes in the continuity of the supplements, then WotC is doing a really shoddy job. Agreed, QC has been getting worse. However, the community (that's us) has hundreds of people who really care about every single word. The continuity editor probably isn't running a campaign where it matters how many NPCs of at least 7th level are around. I tend to give them a bunch of leeway, because I tend to just pick and choose what I like and what I don't. As far as I'm concerned about the Halfling, I'll let the NPC exist, but I just won't tell the players about it. If they find him, cool, if not - also cool.
aelryinth 07-11-05, 09:25 PM	As for breaking the will of the gods...that's in the view of clerics and particularly pious faithful. Adventurers, necromancers, and probably artificers, and likely a lot of philosophers and agnostics, just won't see it that way. The Cleric worries about the will of the Gods. The person paying or getting raised finds such things much less a concern. An artificer won't worry about it at all. A Necromancers sees it as a man's triumph over death. Sure, the commoner on the street may make the Evil Eye and walk away from you if he's a zealot who doesn't think such things should happen. That priest of Siberys thinks the gifts of healing should be available to everyone, and not just pet nobles and the powerful who can pay with favors to corrupt churches and deal makers in back rooms. She serves Siberys, who gave her a Mark of Healing so that EVERYONE could be healed, regardless of station in life, and Raise Dead and Resurrection are both Healing effects. She'd be committing sacrilige NOT to allow such things. ==Aelryinth
Twiggly the Gnome 07-11-05, 09:28 PM	Maybe you shouldn't be DMing Eberron then. A cleric doesn't have to believe in a deity to gain Clerical power. Did I say anything about requiring a deity. :confused: All I require is a codified belief system with a transgressible ethos. I think the other post I've made in this thread make that clear. My understanding of the "spiritual remnants of the Dragon Above" is a sort of incubator for faiths that have yet to acheive a self sustaining "critical mass". It's not a magic genie that supplies power for divine wizards.
makeshiftwings 07-11-05, 10:24 PM	As for breaking the will of the gods...that's in the view of clerics and particularly pious faithful. Adventurers, necromancers, and probably artificers, and likely a lot of philosophers and agnostics, just won't see it that way. The Cleric worries about the will of the Gods. The person paying or getting raised finds such things much less a concern. An artificer won't worry about it at all. A Necromancers sees it as a man's triumph over death. Sure, the commoner on the street may make the Evil Eye and walk away from you if he's a zealot who doesn't think such things should happen. That priest of Siberys thinks the gifts of healing should be available to everyone, and not just pet nobles and the powerful who can pay with favors to corrupt churches and deal makers in back rooms. She serves Siberys, who gave her a Mark of Healing so that EVERYONE could be healed, regardless of station in life, and Raise Dead and Resurrection are both Healing effects. She'd be committing sacrilige NOT to allow such things. ==Aelryinth Well, you could make that up as her faith, but from the way it's written, she doesn't actually believe in Siberys as a deity "who gave her a Mark of Healing"... she just gets powers from the remnants of Siberys, which is how any generic Good godless cleric gets their power according to ECS. But generic godless clerics are supposed to still have some sort of faith. I guess you could make a case that her faith and ethos centers around "Every noncriminal should be raised from the dead", but then one needs to wonder why she charges for it. I agree with Twiggly that if a player wanted to create a new generic cleric that wasn't affiliated with any known religions, they'd need to write up at least a short desciption of their faith, ethos, and a brief code of conduct of some sort. I wouldn't let anyone get away with "I don't really worship anything, my ethos is that uh... everyone in my party should get Cure Light Wounds cast on them when they're injured."
PoeticJustice 07-11-05, 10:25 PM	ECS 233. So, to reiterate: It's been Eberron canon since the ECS that Jorasco has plenty of divine spellcasters who sell their healing magic. And before anyone rushes to suggest that these healers are only charging for the dragonmark abilities and not their divine magic, read the typical healer entry closely. It doesn't have the dragonmark. That means that when this healer charges 8 GP for Cure Light Wounds, he's casting a divine spell for cash. Again: the cleric in Aundair is doing exactly the same kind of thing that most Jorasco divine spellcasters do. She's just a lot better at it. mmmmmmmmm. Crow. Priests are well and good, but I still think there's a fine line between a priest and an actual cleric. Clerics are described in the ECS as "true nights of the church" whereas an adept is thought of as a shaman, holy man, and the like. A simple priest should be an adept. A crusader should be a cleric. The only way this priest remotely fits that role is if she believes whe's been given the power to heal simply to advance her family's power. I agree with Twiggly: Siberys is an "incubator". While Arcane magic is science to the folk of Eberron, Divine Magic is considered subtle and mysterious. Sure, Artfificers can make divine magic items, and can even raise te dead, but according to Keith most are loathe to do so. It's just a folk belief on Eberron that when it's your time to go, you go.
Euangelion 07-11-05, 11:12 PM	One problem is the limitation of the cleric class in that it is focused on warfare, i.e. the "knights of the church" quote. Eberron in particular seems to beg for something along the lines of the "cloistered cleric" from Unearthed Arcana, a version of the cleric that is less focused on warfare but more focused on study, contemplation, and significant but more sedate piety than a cleric decked out in full plate wielding a morning star would demonstrate. Aureon, Boldrei, Olladra, the Path of Light, Onatar, the Traveler, and the Shadow would seem to me to be obvious faiths that such a cleric would fit as its paragon of piety rather than a "knight" would. I see this Jorasco (probably Olladra) cleric in question easily to be more along the lines of a "cloistered cleric" than a "knightly cleric."
Psymnotica 07-11-05, 11:46 PM	I know many of you won't think it applies to Eberron, but has anyone here read the halfling section in Races of the Wild? Halflings have a much different, yet strangely similar, moral code as us. Making money off of someone who is WILLING & ABLE to pay good, hard cash for bringing someone they want back from the dead is definately right up a halflings alley (as well as many HMO's). Perhaps instead of pointing out why they are "going against the gods" you should look at it from the halflings point of view. (Yeah, it's taking money for casting a spell that may or may not bring a person back to life, but the person hasn't hurt anyone as far as you know of and your community/house could certianly put it to good use buying more ingredients for healing potions, poultices, herbs, needles & thread, bandages, nutritious food, etc.) On the point of the level & class of the character, instead of kvetching over the infraction to the "setting flavor" perhaps we should try to imagine what sort of struggles and obstacles this NPC had to overcome to become so potent and blessed. Some questions to ask: What is her importance to her family and House? Who were her parents? What were her early years like? How did she find her calling? What did she do during the War? (Was she a combat medic, healing in the trenches, slipping through the shadows to try and save the mortally wounded commander from the fearsome weapons of the Cyran warforged? Or was she given a sacred duty, to act as divine protector to her Houses caravans from roving patrols of Karnathi undead?) As for her ethos, I too am a little disappointed that it wasn't fleshed out a little more, but then again, I don't expect authors to detail every characters philosophical or religious outlook. It's just something that each individual DM will have to work out on his or her own. And as for how it was written, well, I don't feel the author took into consideration the effect his words would have on our little community. Its impact to the setting was not well-thought out. I can't explain the authors reasons for including this character, nor will I try since all I would be doing is speculating. But I will be (strangely enough) including this character in my campaign... but I will make her my own. She may (or may not) be easily accessible to the PC's. She may (or may not) be what she appears. She may (or may not) be willing to help the PC's out if they need her services. But two things she won't be is either cheap or two-dimensional. If my players ever encounter a 13th level halfling cleric with the ability and willingness to raise the dead, she is not going to be some "convenience store" character. She is going to add drama, excitement, mystery and terror to my storyline... even if the author never intended her to do so. Just my thoughts on this large thread. :)
ralixgaudreau 07-12-05, 12:33 AM	I haven't gotten the book yet, but in reading through the thread, I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that when it comes to considering the doomsday scenarios of wealthy merchants and nobles always having themselves resurrected, maybe those who remain alive have valid reasons not to pay for this cleric's services? Apart from the previously-mentioned points about beliefs such as the Silver Flame (the dead become part of it) and Valenar (the dead join their ancestor spirits), there's often a big benefit to those living if the dead remain dead! How does the noble's heir ever inherit if the head of the noble house never dies? How do the merchant's children ever get to take over the family business? Now, it's entirely possible that this is a bit of a cynical viewpoint, but considering that something like "offing the old man and inheriting his fortune" is a pretty common noir theme, I'd like to think that even when you add in a cleric with these abilities, a lot of the people who could afford to buy them may have a strong reason not to. I'm not sure that such a consideration necessarily applies to a party of PCs, but since most of this discussion seems focused on the impact this NPC has on the world at large, I hope the point is seen as germane. After reading the thread, it sounds like the Aundairan section could have used a little bit of polishing to tie it more closely and strongly to the established feel of the setting, but nothing catastrophic was published. I'll have to reserve final judgment until I get my own copy, however. EDIT: Right after reading this, I checked out the thread that Sarlax started about IG limitations on using this resource, and the very first thing he suggested was an inheritance consideration! Guess I should have read that thread before posting here. :rolleyes:
aelryinth 07-12-05, 12:50 AM	Inheritance? You can basically only raise/resurrect someone who has died an Untimely Death. If he's dead of old age, then he can't come back anyways...just like the real world. Raise Dead and Resurrection are tools to allow every man to live out the full length of the natural lifespan alloted to them. The Heirs have Grampa around as long as he lives, and bringing him back if someone assassin sticks a knife into him is only good sense, since you'd want them to do it for you, too! Wherever did this discussion make people immortal? At best the people who can make use of this service just live out their normal lifespans...and barring soul-locking daggers, have the steps neccessary to assure that is going to happen. That's why it is a Part of the Healing Domain...you are reversing an untimely death and allowing someone to fulfill the time 'nature' allotted to you. If you aren't beholden to some idea that 'the gods called him home early', this is perfectly rational. ===Aelryinth
The White Sorcerer 07-12-05, 01:26 AM	Inheritance? You can basically only raise/resurrect someone who has died an Untimely Death. If he's dead of old age, then he can't come back anyways...just like the real world. Raise Dead and Resurrection are tools to allow every man to live out the full length of the natural lifespan alloted to them. The Heirs have Grampa around as long as he lives, and bringing him back if someone assassin sticks a knife into him is only good sense, since you'd want them to do it for you, too! If I were a cynical, slightly evilish heir, I'd rather inherit daddy's fortune when I was 20 rather than 60, thank you very much. Heck, if daddy was going to live a good, long life of 110 years, I'd rather inherit his fortune before I die a natural death myself.
AlDaRoN Arg 07-12-05, 08:25 AM	If I were a cynical, slightly evilish heir, I'd rather inherit daddy's fortune when I was 20 rather than 60, thank you very much. Heck, if daddy was going to live a good, long life of 110 years, I'd rather inherit his fortune before I die a natural death myself. I think that most people won't use this service, not only the evil heirs who want the old man's money. Resurrection is taboo in Eberron and something almost unheard of, not only most of the clerics think that is against the will of the gods but most people think that way too. So only a few people (that can afford the service) will make use of it.
DarkWarriorKarg 07-12-05, 08:38 AM	The most common form of resurrection is "raise dead". Assassins would use the same tactics needed to avoid being fingered with "speak with dead", plus... Acid to damage the body sufficiently... fire is also good. Make the body dissapear... slip it into a bog, over a bridge, down a sewer... Take the head... Animate dead on it and turn it into a skeleton or a zombie. Have it walk away. Have it attack the party... if the party cleric turns it... there goes the evidence...
ralixgaudreau 07-12-05, 11:01 AM	Inheritance? You can basically only raise/resurrect someone who has died an Untimely Death. If he's dead of old age, then he can't come back anyways...just like the real world. If I stood to inherit the barony, the keep, all the lands that my father controlled (and all the tax money that comes with it, etc.), then I might not be in such a hurry to raise him. Sure, if he died of old age, the point is moot, but if he died because an assassin killed him, or because some hideous hag from Droaam sent her forces against the keep he was visiting, or for some other reason that means he died "untimely" and I get to inherit when I'm 30 instead of when I'm 60, then I might not be in such a hurry to hire someone to raise him. Given that there's a serious chance it might not even work (see previous stuff about the spirit being free and willing), I think I'd be entirely justified in accepting my inheritance, grieving the required time, then spending the 6-11K on outfitting men-at-arms and increasing the strength of my estates and possibly seeking revenge against whoever/whatever killed my father. Raise Dead and Resurrection are tools to allow every man to live out the full length of the natural lifespan alloted to them. The Heirs have Grampa around as long as he lives, and bringing him back if someone assassin sticks a knife into him is only good sense, since you'd want them to do it for you, too! No, <i>raise dead</i> and <i>resurrection</i> are not tools to allow every man to live out a full life -- they're tools that do so only for those with vast sums of money to buy the diamonds required. And why is it necessarily the case that keeping Grampa around well into his 90's is a desirable thing? Sure, maybe he's got some wisdom to offer, but maybe he's just a physically weak old man who drools in his porridge and rambles unintelligibly. Wherever did this discussion make people immortal? At best the people who can make use of this service just live out their normal lifespans...and barring soul-locking daggers, have the steps neccessary to assure that is going to happen. I never said that the availability of these spells made people immortal. All I said was that in some circumstances, those who stand to inherit the titles/lands/wealth/whatever of the deceased may be sufficiently motivated by that fact that they would choose not to engage in the expensive and risky process of trying to return their dead to life. I just offered this as another possibility, outside the previously-discussed realm of social taboo and Keith's vision. ---------------------- Roger Alix-Gaudreau Prodigal DM, returned to the fold
Durandal 07-12-05, 11:38 AM	Man, sometimes I wonder what would have happened if an author, just for kicks, slipped in a line about, say, all Brelanders deriving great enjoyment from mangling puppies. :) I think this is really a molehill that some people are very determined to make into Mount Everest. Yes, there's a halfling healer in Fairhaven who can raise the dead. Taken by itself, that might be problematic, but look at it in context, especially with the rest of the chapter. Aundaire has probably the first- or second-best spy organization in the Five Nations, and it says outright that they are much more involved with magical spying than others. Plus, this priest, regardless of affiliation and/or divine power, is a high-level character, in a setting with few of those to go around. What, do you think, are the odds of this cleric NOT being watched by the Royal Eyes for things like this? The Royal Eyes, and Aundaire in general, are understandably paranoid, since they managed to mismanage so grotesquely that they lost 2/3rds of their country to about 1/5th of the population. I don't think they're going to be letting Joe McAdventurer show up, throw around large quantities of money, and demand that his buddy be raised from the dead without some kind of plan. Also, the cleric herself is LN, and it says she must be convinced that the person to be raised isn't a convict or criminal. Which likely means she will be scrupulous, and woe to he who decides to try and strongarm a 13th-level cleric. For every raise dead, she can also cast slay living; for every resurrection, she can also cast destruction. So unless you show up with documents signed by your local Aundaire constabulary swearing to your character, arcane marked for authenticity, you get to wait on a background check. And that leads back to my first point. So by even getting in to see her, you've put yourself on the secret police radar. Plus, being such a valued commodity to her house, why on earth would they let any schlub off the street in to see their most valuable healer? They may be a house bent towards healing, but they are also a commercial entity, and I dunno about you, but if I go into a restaurant and ask for food, they probably aren't going to have Emeril whip me up a meal by default. Just because it costs 6,000 gp to pay for raising the dead doesn't mean you won't have to grease the wheels a little first. If I was a good businessman, and I'm sure House Jorasco has its share, I'd realize there aren't many who provide this service. So I'd gauge the clientele, and see how likely it is they would be willing to cough up a little extra. This goes doubly for foreigners - I'd be more than willing to settle for a favor if it was an important noble asking to see Haneela, but some dirt-encrusted adventurer from, say, Breland is going to get charged a fee or asked to do something for me before I let him in to see our most valuable asset. Rigth there, you've pretty much eliminated any likelihood of your players ever trying to see this cleric, unless they come across her through roleplaying channels, and then good for them. But most gamers I know play characters who are often understandably paranoid about (a) governments, and (2) spending large amounts of cash for what may not even be a successful effort. Anyway, sorry for nattering on like that. I just think that one paragraph in a book that seems otherwise great (to me, and discussion on that has another thread) is a little much for a thread of this length. Now, if it said she also mangled puppies for fun, it'd be different. :)
ekomega 07-12-05, 02:52 PM	That's great and all, for your interpretation, but you are ad libbing too much. Greasing the wheels and being difficult isn't mentioned when it states she will cast Raise Dead immediately for 6,000 gp. You put that in there, where it doesn't belong, and your statement directly contradicts the book (short as her paragraph is) And a LN cleric who casts Raise Dead on command certainly isn't going to Finger of Death a criminal who comes in looking to be raised. I'm sure that's against the law. Her power gives her more chances to violate the law rather than less, making her less likely to lash out against anyone. Any idiot can claim the miracle worker blew her brother up or something once it happens the first time, and by then she'll already be in prison. I don't think people in this thread complaining about it are looking for everyone to provide ways to alter the game or justify this in their minds. I think we are all smart enough people that we can do that on our own. I don't know if there's a point to this thread, besides complaining, but I find it less than helpful when people come in hear to argue about how I "could" do it to make up for the lack of thought on the writer's (and WoTC's) part. I know how I could do it, I thought of it already, but I shouldn't have had to. And telling me "new" ways that have already been mentioned by everyone else when the thread started certainly doesn't get anywhere.
Psymnotica 07-12-05, 03:32 PM	I don't think people in this thread complaining about it are looking for everyone to provide ways to alter the game or justify this in their minds. I think we are all smart enough people that we can do that on our own. I don't know if there's a point to this thread, besides complaining, but I find it less than helpful when people come in hear to argue about how I "could" do it to make up for the lack of thought on the writer's (and WoTC's) part. I know how I could do it, I thought of it already, but I shouldn't have had to. I'm sorry, I just can't ignore this. I'm surprised that you feel that this public forum is only for complaining. To say that you have the right to complain on a public list and that others who are reading this list should not critique or try and find useful ways to correct the problem that you are so vocal about is just incredibly dumb. If you want to rant and not let others have a say about it then I suggest you get your own webpage and put your thoughts there. But trying to tell us that this thread is only for "complainers" is idiotic. As for not having to think for yourself (and have the writer do most of the thinking for you), well, I'm not going to go into that can of worms.
makeshiftwings 07-12-05, 04:02 PM	I'm sorry, I just can't ignore this. I'm surprised that you feel that this public forum is only for complaining. To say that you have the right to complain on a public list and that others who are reading this list should not critique or try and find useful ways to correct the problem that you are so vocal about is just incredibly dumb. If you want to rant and not let others have a say about it then I suggest you get your own webpage and put your thoughts there. But trying to tell us that this thread is only for "complainers" is idiotic. As for not having to think for yourself (and have the writer do most of the thinking for you), well, I'm not going to go into that can of worms. I don't think he was saying you shouldn't be allowed to make suggestions; he's just saying he doesn't need them. I feel the same way; I wasn't posting my complaint here to get ideas of how I could ignore that part of the book (the obviousversion being simply, "Ignore that part of the book"). I posted to say I didn't like it and felt it shouldn't have been in there.
Psymnotica 07-12-05, 04:16 PM	I got the general impression that that was what most people were complaining about. But after reading through all of the posts on this thread, with the same "I don't like this!" being mimicked over and over, I think that some constructiveness should occur. And when it does, we are told that it isn't helpful. It ticks me off. I don't come to these lists to read up on how things shouldn't have been written. I come here to read up and share ideas for campaigns, find solutions to problems that may crop up, and get solutions to questions that are bugging me about the setting. I guess it is true what they say: people just want to complain without offering a solution.
Durandal 07-12-05, 04:21 PM	That's great and all, for your interpretation, but you are ad libbing too much. Greasing the wheels and being difficult isn't mentioned when it states she will cast Raise Dead immediately for 6,000 gp. You put that in there, where it doesn't belong, and your statement directly contradicts the book (short as her paragraph is) And a LN cleric who casts Raise Dead on command certainly isn't going to Finger of Death a criminal who comes in looking to be raised. I'm sure that's against the law. Her power gives her more chances to violate the law rather than less, making her less likely to lash out against anyone. Any idiot can claim the miracle worker blew her brother up or something once it happens the first time, and by then she'll already be in prison. I don't think people in this thread complaining about it are looking for everyone to provide ways to alter the game or justify this in their minds. I think we are all smart enough people that we can do that on our own. I don't know if there's a point to this thread, besides complaining, but I find it less than helpful when people come in hear to argue about how I "could" do it to make up for the lack of thought on the writer's (and WoTC's) part. I know how I could do it, I thought of it already, but I shouldn't have had to. And telling me "new" ways that have already been mentioned by everyone else when the thread started certainly doesn't get anywhere. I don't see where what I said directly contradicted the book - yes, it says she will immediately provide you her services, but says nothing of her underlings and whatnot. But that's not really what I was trying to do, anyway. I guess I was just trying to point out that this is a very minor point - a single paragraph of text one one of 157 pages, and it has generated going on 150 replies. I get that people think this is wrong, but I've read the books, too. Eberron says that this sort of thing should be rare, and 2-3 instances spread over 3 books, 4 if you count RoE - that's pretty rare, and they only occur in large population areas. If it was supposed to be strictly against the rules, they would have done what the Iron Kingdoms setting did - just said those spells weren't available, at all. And while many here may have their feelings about it, no doubt the person who wrote the Aundaire section did, too. I'm not going to go and say he was wrong because his opinion differs with that of others. Wizards can't make all of its customers happy with every purchase. Anyway, sorry to have wasted your time. For me, ad-libbing parts of settings is one of the things I like, and I guess this is the wrong forum.
ekomega 07-12-05, 04:59 PM	I didn't mean to be rude, but there is a whole other thread that someone started where people are asking for constructiveness and all of your opinions fit very well. I feel that this thread is the complaining thread, just for complaining. Maybe others view it differently, I don't know. I certainly never started complaining about it to get helpful insight from people, or to argue the finer points about whether or not this is a big deal. I just wanted to complain. That's why I don't post in that other thread. Really, anyone's opinions about whether or not it is a big deal are unimportant, since you won't make me think it's not simply by saying "it's not a big deal" and giving evidence. Clearly I already think it's a big deal. I don't know if others are swayed more easily, but by telling my I'm wrong, when there isn't a right or wrong answer, you don't get anywhere. Telling me I'm wrong and you're right, when there's no clear answer, I find very rude. Helpful suggestions are always welcome, of course, but there is another thread for that. The more I think about this topic the more the situation bothers me. WoTC has put out countless books now, but many of them riddled with errors. Obviously it's not a priority for them to edit. Maybe Hasbro is riding them too hard, demanding a better bottom line. I don't know. But the fact is that they never change anything. Several books don't even have a real editor, they have someone that's a partial editor who, I would guess, spends like 2 hours editing a 192 page book. How hard is it to ask a writer to spend an extra hour or two to read the previous material, before they write their piece? That should be part of the deal in paying writers. And if it's a freelancer, pay them a little extra per word (but only a little) and eventually people will be forced to accept that reading related material is part of writing new material. Now, with some settings, like FR, it becomes very difficult to get a grasp of all the material. But they should hire a person to take care of that, too! How much could that cost them? I doubt very much if they handled it right. And they need to stop hiring every idiot who wrote anything for Dragon to write books. They need to hire more Skip Williams, who know what they're doing, and less of nobodies. These things would solve lots of problems. Since the company is owned by Hasbro now, how much do the previous owners of the company have vested in producing big profits? And for the people who don't have any interest in bigger profits, since they see none of it, why don't they actually do a good job? Or hire someone new? WoTC doesn't pay very well, or what? There's no excuse to produce shoddy work because you don't feel you're compensated well enough to produce good work. If that's the case, you should move to a better job that will pay you what you deserve. And if you love writing RPG stuff, then you should take pride in doing a good job, not a crappy one. Otherwise, you should find a new job. rant rant rant.
makeshiftwings 07-12-05, 07:54 PM	I got the general impression that that was what most people were complaining about. But after reading through all of the posts on this thread, with the same "I don't like this!" being mimicked over and over, I think that some constructiveness should occur. And when it does, we are told that it isn't helpful. It ticks me off. I don't come to these lists to read up on how things shouldn't have been written. I come here to read up and share ideas for campaigns, find solutions to problems that may crop up, and get solutions to questions that are bugging me about the setting. I guess it is true what they say: people just want to complain without offering a solution. The point of complaining here is to get to the REAL solution: WotC hearing our complaints and hiring a few proofreaders and consistency editors. Or at least fixing things in the Errata, or letting Keith write a Dragonshard to fix their mistakes ;)
talion09 07-12-05, 08:20 PM	The point of complaining here is to get to the REAL solution: WotC hearing our complaints and hiring a few proofreaders and consistency editors. Or at least fixing things in the Errata, or letting Keith write a Dragonshard to fix their mistakes ;) Well, if the point of the complaining is to get WOTC to hear our complaints about continuity and internal consistency, then perhaps we should go about it in a different way. The original posts on this thread, myself included, were primarily argueing either for or against the idea that the Jorasco Cleric 13 "broke the setting". And we've had lots of back and forth on the subject. IMHO, it didn't shift to the focus on consistency and editing until around the bottom page 3... So if the point of complaining on the boards is to get WOTC to recognize and address the problems, perhaps the better way to go about would be to create seperate threads addressing each consistency issue, ie. ECS vs RoE, ECS vs 5N, etc. In each thread, post the "problems" we have found where the WOTC material is not consistent from book to book (ie. Fairhaven Cleric), and then ask anyone who agrees with you to post once, and if they disagree to post once, a simple yes or no, in a form of online petition. Then we can point to the threads and see whether or not the boards as a whole think the consistency issue is important. Ie. "Do you think the Fairhaven Jorasco Cleric 13 of Siberys, who will raise/ressurect any non-criminal for cash, is consistent with the concepts of rare ressurection and few high level NPCs as set forth in the ECS. Please answer simply yes or no, as this is a survey and not a disscussion thread. Disscusion has already been started on <insert appropriate threads here>" EDIT: 1. If you do decide to follow my idea, I'd be sure to check the CoC and/or WizO's to make sure this type of thread is allowed. They let us go on and on about how certain articles/sections of game books are lacking, but we aren't allowed to discuss novels one way or another, so... I'd double check to be safe.
ekomega 07-12-05, 10:34 PM	Well, I don't think this is the appropriate setting for that. I don't know if the WizO's talk to anybody who listens, or what. Really, it comes down to letters and phone calls. Even in this age of computers, people still ignore online stuff, even email. Please correct me if this stereotype is incorrect, but I have found that hurdles still remain to validate the digital age. But people should let them know, somehow. Or better yet, let the people at Hasbro who manage WoTC know. Nothing like getting somebody's bosses involved.
aelryinth 07-13-05, 01:43 AM	I addressed the heir who suddenly reverses the wish of his father to be Raised if assassinated/an accident happens/etc. First, it's going to look suspicous if someone just killed your sire and you don't take the steps to bring him back. Like, who benefits most? Riiiiiight. Second, it means that YOUR heirs aren't going to do the same for you. All well and good, but plays havoc with the idea of you remaining head of the household for very long. If you are subtle about it and make them die of natural causes, or at least seem to, fine and dandy. But going against the will of your sire just paints a fat target on yourself. ==Aelryinth
memorax 07-13-05, 09:08 AM	I am just curious. What happens when a PC cleric in an Eberron game gets the ability to do the same as the cleric in the Five Nations book what then? Do you restrict his ability to do? Do you ask if he is pious enough? Aelryinth has asked the question and was conviently ignored. Now I ask it again.
Kryptonian Scion 07-13-05, 09:59 AM	I am just curious. What happens when a PC cleric in an Eberron game gets the ability to do the same as the cleric in the Five Nations book what then? Do you restrict his ability to do? Do you ask if he is pious enough? Aelryinth has asked the question and was conviently ignored. Now I ask it again. You control it via treasure placement - no diamonds equals no Resurrection. This is how I have always done it. (I have been anti-Raise Dead for years, my players are well-trained when it comes to accepting character death.) I would probably be more okay with this cleric casting the spells, if the PCs were required to provide her with the appropriate value in diamonds. Maybe Aelryinth was "conveniently" ignored because he's actually on alot of peoples' ignore lists. He's on mine, and two other people I know of.
lugnut71 07-13-05, 10:42 AM	So they can't buy diamonds. Sure they are rare but diamonds certainly are not heard of. If you want raise dead or resurraction non existent wouldn't it be easier to remove the spells. If you want them rare it would also be simplier to increase the level.
ekomega 07-13-05, 01:20 PM	You can block people so you don't see their posts? I'm going to go do that right now. Thanks. I would say to my Raise Dead casting PC that when he asks his god for the miracle, it doesn't happen. I figure this should be pretty common in Eberron anyway, especially with Keith's statement that dead creatures count as visitors to the plane, and therefore follow the rules laid out in the ECS (check the Ask Keith thread). But if you as DM are uncomfortable with these spells, you should talk to your players and let them know what to expect. They might play differently if they know they can't be brought back easily.
ralixgaudreau 07-13-05, 01:28 PM	I am just curious. What happens when a PC cleric in an Eberron game gets the ability to do the same as the cleric in the Five Nations book what then? Do you restrict his ability to do? Do you ask if he is pious enough? Aelryinth has asked the question and was conviently ignored. Now I ask it again. I don't think he was ignored, per se. A lot of us said that we agree with him, that it's not really a problem for the setting. If we agree that this capability isn't a problem for an NPC, the implication is that it's not a problem for a PC. Personally, I don't have a problem with a PC cleric selling his resurrection abilities for cash. In the short term, he'll make a lot of money. His church may question his motives and there may be some faithful who decry him for betraying the faithful by squandering his divinely given miraculous power (i.e. interesting roleplaying scenarios abound), but if he's true to his faith, then the spells keep coming. He may get requests from unsavory sorts who want unpleasant people raised, and refusing them could lead to all kinds of problems. Likewise, if someone assassinates a target and then the target's friends come to the PC, then the original assassins may pay the PC a rather unfriendly visit. In short, offering to sell resurrection services for cash is full of plot hooks for a PC who chooses to do so, and it's not a departure from the setting (well, in the hands of a PC, it *could* be, but a PC at that level should be clued into the setting by then), so why would I restrict it? Answer: I wouldn't. Now, I also feel that there's a large segment of the population that won't take advantage of that service, due to cultural traditions and taboos, but that's true of the Jorasco NPC as well. IMG, her presence wouldn't be a problem; she's one of a few rare sources of resurrection magic the PCs would have to work to take advantage of (especially in light of Keith's post on another thread, where he says the Dolurrh effect should apply to the spirits of the dead as well as living visitors to the plane). ------------------------- Roger Alix-Gaudreau Prodigal DM, returned to the fold
ralixgaudreau 07-13-05, 01:32 PM	I would say to my Raise Dead casting PC that when he asks his god for the miracle, it doesn't happen. I figure this should be pretty common in Eberron anyway, especially with Keith's statement that dead creatures count as visitors to the plane, and therefore follow the rules laid out in the ECS (check the Ask Keith thread). But if you as DM are uncomfortable with these spells, you should talk to your players and let them know what to expect. They might play differently if they know they can't be brought back easily. Would you say the same for a cleric who's casting Cure Light Wounds for any purpose other than the furthering of his church's goals? After all, if all divine magic is a miracle of faith that should be saved for the faithful, then casting healing for cash should be just as forbidden as casting Raise Dead. I think it's a good idea to talk about a DM's expectations for raising dead characters anyway, even if your plan is just to use the standard expectations out of the book. That way, everyone's on the same page from the start. ------------------------- Roger Alix-Gaudreau Prodigal DM, returned to the fold
makeshiftwings 07-13-05, 01:32 PM	I am just curious. What happens when a PC cleric in an Eberron game gets the ability to do the same as the cleric in the Five Nations book what then? Do you restrict his ability to do? Do you ask if he is pious enough? Aelryinth has asked the question and was conviently ignored. Now I ask it again. I replied to his post on page 3.
ekomega 07-13-05, 04:33 PM	Would you say the same for a cleric who's casting Cure Light Wounds for any purpose other than the furthering of his church's goals? After all, if all divine magic is a miracle of faith that should be saved for the faithful, then casting healing for cash should be just as forbidden as casting Raise Dead. I don't condone PCs selling those spells for cash, either. Especially in Eberron. If the PCs want to spend a lot of time selling spells and lazing around, then they should retire. Adventuring is about adventures, and there's plenty of ways a PC can make a lot of money and just quit if he wants. But the PCs don't necessarily know why Raise Dead didn't work, and it seems that it's pretty difficult to be successful given Keith's recent statements. So you can tell them whatever you want. They don't know that their ally didn't make his will saves, or even that he did, so it doesn't matter.
JBW 07-13-05, 09:50 PM	I don't condone PCs selling those spells for cash, either. Especially in Eberron. If the PCs want to spend a lot of time selling spells and lazing around, then they should retire. Adventuring is about adventures, and there's plenty of ways a PC can make a lot of money and just quit if he wants. Yes, but sometimes such actiuvities are tied into the player's dreams of higher adventure, such as when the Cleric casts such spells in order to bankroll the Artificer's crafting of magic items. Of course, this can get way out of hand as the Artificer has virtually unlimitied ability to pull in XP from minor magical items (which can be purchased with the gold from the Cleric's healing-for-hire). Soon, the characters will have completely broken the wealth-by-level guidelines and will be far more powerful than their levels would totherwise indicate... So no, it's not a path to retirement, it's another way to powergame! Jay
aelryinth 07-13-05, 10:01 PM	Which is now a DM balance issue, and conveniently the adventures they go on they will get next to no treasure or loot, and less xp. It all balances out. You also have to take the time to make those items...which means, let the cleric and artificer have their fun, while I go level twice on them. ==Aelyrinth
memorax 07-13-05, 10:14 PM	You control it via treasure placement - no diamonds equals no Resurrection. This is how I have always done it. (I have been anti-Raise Dead for years, my players are well-trained when it comes to accepting character death.). Myself I see it limiting Clerics unnecessarily. What's the point of playing one? At this point all he is a fighter who can cast spells imo. At the very least all a resurrection or raise dead once in a while. No way would any of the people I game with go near a cleric if I pulled something like that. Let alone come back to the game. That being said if it works for you more power to you. You run your game one way and I run my game my way. Though I do recommend mentioning it before hand to anyone playing a cleric. Maybe Aelryinth was "conveniently" ignored because he's actually on alot of peoples' ignore lists. He's on mine, and two other people I know of. I don't see why. Nothing I have seen him write was out of line or inflammetory. At worst he was disagreeing with the general consensus on the topic. Which is what these boards are designed for. I have to wonder if the ability of pc clerics to cast raise dead/resurrection spells was taken into account when designing Eberron. Imo it does not look like it. A small flaw in an otherwise perfect setting. I can see it being a problem later on in some games.
aelryinth 07-14-05, 02:04 AM	Raise Dead/Res was taken into account during Design...just ask Hellcow about that. Implementation seems to be mucking things up. Because Eberron is an 'open setting', it technically has to abide by all the rules of core D&D. That means that Raise Dead and Resurrection work just fine...you can stick the 'mood' in there, which is fine, but you can't make it a 'rule' that things CANNOT be done that way. Thus, the conflict. The rules say you can, and the 'mood' says that people/the churches don't want to...but there's always exceptions to the mood, and thus we have our little problem. Hellcow has said that he meant for souls in Dollurh to suffer the entrapment effect...but it doesn't explicitly say they do, only that 'visitors' do...and the souls aren't visitors, since no one knows what happens to them...they might just fade away in Dollurh, which makes them natives and the plane their final destination. If you DO treat it that way, then you have to introduce an entire new subset of rules for Eberron only...because Resurrection simply won't work over the long term, nothing can statistically make that many saving throws to take advantage of the long duration of the spell. Raise Dead would now special rules on Eberron...because the soul might not come back just because of a DICE ROLL. Ouch. You've taken it out of the Player's Hands, when clearly the rules state that it's the Player's choice. So the rules are saying one thing, the mood is saying another...and GM's are making House rules to match the mood. The above example by my Good, Good Friend Kryptionian Scion with not making diamonds available at all also, for instance, shafts any mage who wants to cast stoneskin, and means that nobody gives diamonds as jewelry since it is so bloody rare now. There's more then one spell and effect that uses diamonds, right? ---------------------- You can sense frustration in Keith's explanations about all this, because he's trying to keep a mood, but also trying to get in balance with the rules. He's also trying to juggle pulp and noir...two very different settings. Pulp is high action, where death is common, but not something that should stop anyone if that's the focus. Noir is grim and gritty, and death is a very real and deadly thing. Most of the posts are favoring noir, not swashbuckling and high adventure, and House Ruling more restrictions on to the Raise and Rez spells, and thus are more then a little nettled by an offical Raise and Resurrect who contradicts all their plans...because now the players can make an end run around the DM if they so choose, unless he removes something 'official'. I happen to agree that whoever wrote the article probably isn't aware of the noir point of view, and went more for the pulp side of view...carefully emphasizing that it IS possible, but only one person can do it, and all the other elements of the setting DO make sure that only a rare few can do it. At $100 for a gold piece, it would effectively cost 1.1 Million Gp to get someone resurrected...not something the common person can afford...but, you know, if you have the money, it can be done. Could you afford to rush your Dad who just got killed by a freak accident/murder from the middle of America to a town in Belgium where the one person who could resurrect them would do so for the fee above? You'd have to have a ton of money, and I highly doubt you could get a loan to cover it...unless you make a lot of money already. Think how few people would actually manage to benefit from that, even in our day and age. 365 people a year maximum...and only those who died before their time. Rich folk, like most people, tend to die of natural causes. (Heh, I can see Death by Overdose counting as 'criminal' for not Raising them, too...else you'd have the 'death becomes me' sport for the jet-set REAL thrill seeker) So, it's a restricted option. I can also see a nice clause in Life Insurance contracts...in the event of Revivication, all monies must be returned with interest of x% compounded by annum, to be repaid upon Final Death. Heh! Accidental Death policies will suddenly look a lot more viable. Another source of income for Jorasco!... ================ In short, to be perfectly honest, if they want to preserve the No Second Chances noir flavor of Eberron, it must be ENFORCED on everyone...clerics and NPC's alike, so that there can be no exceptions, logical or otherwise. Since it is not, our Fairhaven Rezzer exists, and is completely within the rules of the setting and game to exist. 99% of the people cannot afford to use them, and the other 1% only have mild cause, infrequent desire, and possibly not the means to. ===== Lastly, remember this...if death is absolute, it becomes very, very difficult to play a long term character. A single dice roll spells doom...a missed save, a crit, a save-or-die spell at the wrong moment. The normal game says that you can overcome this, that the fight can go on, and you can hold on to your character and play him up. Noir says you can't. So now you have to bring in some new character you won't get as attached to, because you didn't have to work him up from low levels. And when you do this sort of thing, it tends to lead to power gaming and min/maxing, because you don't want your character to die...it's not something you can undo, anymore...and because the character you make doesn't have to suffer through the low levels that define a character, but can come in right at XX level...which is how Powergamers build things, skipping all the impossible to play low levels for the synergies of high level. ===== So, personally, I don't have a problem with any of this. If Raise is rare, then the characters suck up the cost and pay it, be it quest from a church or gold to a Jorasco halfway across the continent (and who, unless they start in Fairhaven, they'll probably never use, anyways). Whatever is most fun is what works. IIRC, characters don't really want to spend the money for a Raise before 8th level anyways, due to the cost and the level loss. They got into the juggling act of being able to play the survivable gimp at a level lower, or bring in a power-build at the same level as their old guy, but with a much brighter future. And they chose the power build instead of hanging onto their old guy. We played a campaign thru 13 levels...my character was one of two out of 8 to make it that far without dying...and the array of power builds, min/max races, and general apathy for their characters was incredible. I personally hate rolling up new characters. I also loathe the idea of trying to create and justify a character of, say, 12th level, because I know I'm going to powerbuild him...I would be utterly stupid not to. The character I had in the above campaign was a Halfling...3E rules. He had a slew of classes one-dipped for some weird combinations of skills because members of the party kept dying, and we needed someone who could do this and this and this. Ranger died? Right, guess I'll take care of that so we can Track the baddie. What, the halfling can do the same dmg as my Half-Dragon Ranger/fighter/Weapon Master with a mercurial Greatsword? I can't work with him! - Fine, I'll take a level of Barbarian to represent my inner rage and make him even better in combat...and my favored enemy is human for all these templates. No one else will make a skill monkey because they can't survive? Fine, here we go, points into search and spot and DD and OL. Look, FIVE dead mages, tons of wands and scrolls no one can use. Fine, I'll take a level in mage so SOMEONE can use these bloody wands (I was carrying around six or so...and about 20 scrolls). I even took Leadership and brought in a mage because no one wanted to play a caster...they couldn't survive combat. The other guy? He was a LG Barbarian2/Cleric 10. Human. Track for one of his feats. Did all the right things gamewise, stuck to his character. ================= That's the perspective I'm coming from for all of this. If I'm going to work a character up from level 1, I want to care about the character and I want him to be able to reach higher levels. I don't want to be eliminated by a roll of the dice forever, either by bad luck or by bad play from other characters. I don't want to bring in a ringer at level 6 because the bad guys can use the rules to kill me instantly, and there's no coming back from it. There's too many ways to die in the game...I'd like to be able to reboot, too. It doesn't have to be easy...but if it's too hard, then you are just sapping my fun. And unless you balance the no Rez options with no Insta-kills options, then I'm just not going to buy into this like I should. But then, that IS the flavor of the campaign. House Rule as you like to change things noir...I like mine served Pulpy. ===Aelryinth
The White Sorcerer 07-14-05, 03:09 AM	So if the entrapping effect works on the souls of the dead... Well, that solves the whole "Bring Jarot back" issue. Even a 20th-level cleric with Wis 23 will fail his save after less than a month, so what good is the "10 years per caster level" limit of resurrection for? I think the time limits of raise dead and such should represent the fading the souls of the dead experience. That's how I've seen it ever since I read the description of Dolurrh.
Kryptonian Scion 07-14-05, 10:14 AM	So if the entrapping effect works on the souls of the dead... Well, that solves the whole "Bring Jarot back" issue. Even a 20th-level cleric with Wis 23 will fail his save after less than a month, so what good is the "10 years per caster level" limit of resurrection for? I like it alot. This give me the opportunity to create an epic "bring back the dead" quest where the PCs travel to Dolurrh to find the petitioner spirit/soul of their friend and trigger their memories in some way. Implementing this, I will gladly keep the Jorasco cleric housed safely in Fairhaven. Of course, the PCs have to provide their own means for traveling to the plane of the dead and restoring his or her memories to a point where they will accept resurrection. The idea of inevitables intervening appeals to me as well. The PCs could use the services of this particular Jorasco cleric once or twice (maybe they get lucky and get to her within a few days of the companion's death, avoiding the entrapping effect), or maybe an enclave with an altar of resurrection a few times - and then return the next time to find the halfling was recently slain by something resembling a construct. Throw in some red herrings regarding the Lord of Blades or warforged assassins from another nation, and it becomes way cooler than a "Raise Dead convenience store."
talion09 07-14-05, 11:05 AM	That was the point I was trying to make about the Marut inevitables (although now that I think about it, I might of mentioned it on the other thread instead of here) A Marut is CR 15 or CR 16. She is a level 13 cleric, who in all likelyhood isn't walking around the Jorasco compound in decked out adventuring gear appropriate to her level, ie. magic fullplate, magic mace, etc Unless Jorasco has a lot of high level guards warding her, I don't see the Marut needing more than a couple of turns to pound her into pulp, and then who can raise her? --- Hmm... about the guards warding her. Given that she is a rare commodity for House Jorasco, and that she refuses to raise criminals, what do you think the odds are that House Deneith has been contracted to protect her? It gets a little harder to bluff and plunk down a bag of 6K in gold and a dead corpse and say that you aren't engaged in criminal activity of any sort if there is a sentinel marshal standing on the other side of the counter.
Raven Dark 07-14-05, 11:46 AM	None of the books specify how King Jarot died, right? So I guess he died of old age/natural causes. He cannot be brought back by any known magical means. At least that's what I'd say in my campaign if any players tried this. Also, NPCs probably realized long ago that he couldn't be brought back (either cause he died naturally or didn't want to return) or else he would have been.
PoeticJustice 07-15-05, 01:15 AM	That's the perspective I'm coming from for all of this. If I'm going to work a character up from level 1, I want to care about the character and I want him to be able to reach higher levels. I don't want to be eliminated by a roll of the dice forever, either by bad luck or by bad play from other characters. I don't want to bring in a ringer at level 6 because the bad guys can use the rules to kill me instantly, and there's no coming back from it. There's too many ways to die in the game...I'd like to be able to reboot, too. It doesn't have to be easy...but if it's too hard, then you are just sapping my fun. And unless you balance the no Rez options with no Insta-kills options, then I'm just not going to buy into this like I should. But then, that IS the flavor of the campaign. House Rule as you like to change things noir...I like mine served Pulpy. I think I actually understand your point of view, and I from that, understand where the disagreement came from. See, in my campaigns, PCs rarely die unless they've been playing stupid (killing sprees in the middle of town, and the like), or if it's particularly cinematic and the Player has lost interest in the character for one reason or another. I have one guy that's famous for it. We call him "Mike the Martyr" because his characters end up sacrficing themselves. If I made Rez available, Mike would still bull rush the Ogre into a vat of acid and go along for the ride. He wouldn't want to come back. That's just his style. So what do I do to make death real? How do the games keep from getting boring if nobody ever dies on accident? Nonlethal damage and fudging die rolls, mostly. I also keep "Ensign Ricky" on hand to soak up disintigrates and the like. I also try and keep the mechanics as invisible as I can, sometimes keeping track of their HP. I also try and make the battles as hard/exotic as I can. I tend to overestimate they're survivability while underestimating their creativity, which leads to surprise victories against all odds. Still, occaisonally, someone does die, and when they do, its a big deal. They have to cut a deal with devil. They have to fight. In the end, it works for me. I hope what you do works too. I also hope you can understand my visceral reaction to Molly McHalfling Healer. She represents anathema to most my DM philosphy. If you love your character, you will endeavor to keep him alive or go out with a bang, not hope one guy survives and raises the rest (for only mere gold, anyway). Battles need not be lethal to be exciting or have the perception of danger.
aelryinth 07-15-05, 02:01 AM	You're a 'fudging' DM :). Most of the ones I've played with are 'let the dice fall', and most Noir settings are this way. There is extreme emphasis on good tactics (heh, how seldom that happened!) and getting into melee. This rapidly degenerated into melee optimizations, because so many people were not surviving melee. On a bright note, after 2-3 tries as +LA races with uber stats and builds, people began to notice that those missing Hit Dice were really, really nice. One fellow who was all over the place with half fiends, half dragons, tieflings and what not finally came in with a half orc barb/5 f/4. Did pretty well...and so the next guy came in with a human druid and a big ol' bear. If it weren't for crappy Will saves for the fighter types, might have been able to carry a couple more fights! And I understand where you are coming from perfectly PJ. But if you are a 'fudgy' and active DM, then the Cleric is a non-issue for you, because the characters will rarely need her. And remember, it takes True Resurrection to return someone sans body...so if y ou want final character death, make it properly heroic and lose the body for a grand moment. Can't do much about 'martyr' players, except bring them in at lower levels relative to the rest of the party...when they can't do as much, maybe they'll play smarter. Punishing silly play on everyone else tends to help...or just moving the focus off his actions so the wild things he does to get attention are just background fluff in the combat...no attention means he might start thinking of ways to contribute to the group. "I bullrush the Ogre into the vat of acid!" Rollroll. "I roll a 32!" "Joe bullrushes the ogre into the vat of acid and both disappear beneath the surface. Quattro, what are you doing?" And then he's got nothing to do. heh. Well, player control is your job:) ==Aelryinth
AlDaRoN Arg 07-15-05, 07:19 AM	That was the point I was trying to make about the Marut inevitables (although now that I think about it, I might of mentioned it on the other thread instead of here) A Marut is CR 15 or CR 16. She is a level 13 cleric, who in all likelyhood isn't walking around the Jorasco compound in decked out adventuring gear appropriate to her level, ie. magic fullplate, magic mace, etc Unless Jorasco has a lot of high level guards warding her, I don't see the Marut needing more than a couple of turns to pound her into pulp, and then who can raise her? --- Hmm... about the guards warding her. Given that she is a rare commodity for House Jorasco, and that she refuses to raise criminals, what do you think the odds are that House Deneith has been contracted to protect her? It gets a little harder to bluff and plunk down a bag of 6K in gold and a dead corpse and say that you aren't engaged in criminal activity of any sort if there is a sentinel marshal standing on the other side of the counter. I'm pretty sure that Jorasco will use the altar of rez with her. And besides who would be so crazy to attack Jorasco? Yes, you could kill her, but... why would you?
ekomega 07-15-05, 02:20 PM	The Marut, because they are the defenders of death and fight to keep the dead dead. Extraplanar beings are frequently unconcerned with mortal affairs, especially if they guard the realm of death. And if the Marut kills you, maybe he holds your soul to keep it from being revived afterwards. Or he just comes and kills you again. It's easy to be bossy when you are CR 15 and can cast Circle of Death. That takes care of most mortal attempts to attack you.
talion09 07-15-05, 02:36 PM	I'm pretty sure that Jorasco will use the altar of rez with her. And besides who would be so crazy to attack Jorasco? Yes, you could kill her, but... why would you? Why would you kill her? Well, there are plenty of examples here on this thread... assassins, doing a pre-emptive strike before going after an aundair npc... maruts striking her down for violating the natural order... some fanatic who feels she is violating the natural order... terrorism (ie. Emerald Claw/Blood of Vol hitting a notable target that benefits their enemies, but isn't particularly useful to someone whose goal is to be undead)... just a couple off the top of my head But anyways, my point was that once she IS dead, who is going to raise her? I don't think there is anyone else in Fairhaven capable of doing so, certainly not in the Jorasco compound. Which means that they either have to send her body out to another city, or have a capable spellcaster come to Fairhaven... which might entail a few days delay at least, and that means she has to start making the will saves for the Doloruth effect. As a cleric 13, she has a base Will save of plus 8. Figure she has an 18 or 19 wisdom, that means a total Will save of +12, since I'm pretty sure magic items on your corpse won't be helping your soul on another plane. So the first day she has to roll 3+ on her will save (DC 15, Will save +12) which means a 10% chance of failure. Second day she has to roll a 4+, which is a 15% chance of failure, and so on. If it takes a few days to get her to a suitable caster with the spell memorized, then there is a substantial chance she has already failed a Will save and succumbed to the Doloruth effect. --- All this supposes that someone goes through the trouble of assasinating her, and doesn't disfigure or maim the body enough to ensure that a ressurection is needed instead of a raise dead. Or use a keeper's fang weapon. And if you went through the trouble of infiltrating the Jorasco compound and assasinating the cleric 13, you probably thought that far ahead. And if it was the Marut who killed her... then maybe he takes her body with him when he returns, kinda like an express lane to Doloruth.
AlDaRoN Arg 07-15-05, 03:31 PM	Why would you kill her? Well, there are plenty of examples here on this thread... assassins, doing a pre-emptive strike before going after an aundair npc... maruts striking her down for violating the natural order... some fanatic who feels she is violating the natural order... terrorism (ie. Emerald Claw/Blood of Vol hitting a notable target that benefits their enemies, but isn't particularly useful to someone whose goal is to be undead)... just a couple off the top of my head She is level 13 so she has been raising for a while now, meaning that she knows her stuff and how to protect herself. But anyways, my point was that once she IS dead, who is going to raise her? I don't think there is anyone else in Fairhaven capable of doing so, certainly not in the Jorasco compound. Which means that they either have to send her body out to another city, or have a capable spellcaster come to Fairhaven... which might entail a few days delay at least, and that means she has to start making the will saves for the Doloruth effect. As a cleric 13, she has a base Will save of plus 8. Figure she has an 18 or 19 wisdom, that means a total Will save of +12, since I'm pretty sure magic items on your corpse won't be helping your soul on another plane. So the first day she has to roll 3+ on her will save (DC 15, Will save +12) which means a 10% chance of failure. Second day she has to roll a 4+, which is a 15% chance of failure, and so on. If it takes a few days to get her to a suitable caster with the spell memorized, then there is a substantial chance she has already failed a Will save and succumbed to the Doloruth effect. Jorasco has an altar of rez and dragonmark heirs to revive her. Besides the Doloruth effect has no effect on souls or ressurection being 10 years x lvl is useless. If you want to change de Core rules suit yourself. All this supposes that someone goes through the trouble of assasinating her, and doesn't disfigure or maim the body enough to ensure that a ressurection is needed instead of a raise dead. Or use a keeper's fang weapon. And if you went through the trouble of infiltrating the Jorasco compound and assasinating the cleric 13, you probably thought that far ahead. And if it was the Marut who killed her... then maybe he takes her body with him when he returns, kinda like an express lane to Doloruth. hahaha you can make anything happend to her if you want, I'll tell you something easier than that, she can die of old age or maybe she doesn't exists in your game. The book tell you there is a 13 level cleric who raises people for money in Fairheaven, period. If you want to change it is fine, its DM perrogative.
The Dreaming Duck 07-15-05, 06:12 PM	Unless Jorasco has a lot of high level guards warding her, I don't see the Marut needing more than a couple of turns to pound her into pulp, and then who can raise her? --- Hmm... about the guards warding her. Given that she is a rare commodity for House Jorasco, and that she refuses to raise criminals, what do you think the odds are that House Deneith has been contracted to protect her? A base marut is CR 15. But first, who said there would only be one. And second, they go up to 45 HD... and I'd be surprised if a lot of Denieth guards are capable of handling angry 45 HD outsiders. Furthermore, if the maruts ARE against it, are they just going to toss one marut in, and if it gets defeated say "Eh, never mind"? I'd expect that if you beat one, they'd come back with two, than four, etc. Just to offer my latest take: What Hellcow has said is that raising the dead is something people take seriously... that the dead person may have a role still to play, but that if he does not you're tampering with fate and thus risking the wrath of a marut (or whatever). To me, this means the answer is completely in the hands of the DM - and that no cleric with an ounce of sense will use the spell without casting augury first. "What will be the results of my casting resurrection?" Weal? Great, raise away. Woe? Sorry, keep your money, not gonna happen. Woe and weal? Well, how much are you willing to pay exactly? We're taking a chance here... And with the "does the person still have a destiny", what we're saying is that if you're a PC, you probably do - because we all know the PCs are the movers and shakers of the age. But Jarot? I can't imagine that they WOULDN'T have raised him if it was an option. So, barring him being killed by a Keeper's fang, I think Dolurrh may have issued its judgment. In fact, I quite like the idea that when he died his personal bodyguards forced a cleric to raise him in spite of the augury, and were killed by maruts and the guardians of Dolurrh... loyal to the end. I'll be sticking that in my campaign. ;)
Kryptonian Scion 07-15-05, 06:37 PM	hahaha you can make anything happend to her if you want, I'll tell you something easier than that, she can die of old age or maybe she doesn't exists in your game. The book tell you there is a 13 level cleric who raises people for money in Fairheaven, period. If you want to change it is fine, its DM perrogative. Ow, ow! My horse! Stop that! ...oh, wait. Nevermind. He was already dead when you started beating him.
ralixgaudreau 07-17-05, 01:42 AM	<snip> So the first day she has to roll 3+ on her will save (DC 15, Will save +12) which means a 10% chance of failure. Second day she has to roll a 4+, which is a 15% chance of failure, and so on. If it takes a few days to get her to a suitable caster with the spell memorized, then there is a substantial chance she has already failed a Will save and succumbed to the Doloruth effect. It occurs to me that one interesting possibility to circumvent this might be the spell gentle repose. In the core rules, the time a body benefits from the spell (1 day per caster level) doesn't count toward the time limit of raise dead or similar magic. Now, maybe it seems a bit powerful for a 2nd-level cleric spell to "defeat" the Dolurrh effect, but I could see it as establishing a metaphysical lifeline between the body and the spirit in Dolurrh. As long as the connection is maintained (i.e. as long as the spell effect remains active), there's a trickle of energy from Eberron to the spirit, enough to keep the flame of memory alive, thus negating the Dolurrh effect temporarily. Of course, if you don't keep casting it, then the Dolurrh effect will kick in with a vengeance once it expires... Of course, if you decide that the Dolurrh effect applies no matter what, then you probably won't go for this interpretation of gentle repose, but I kinda like it. Then again, I'm one of those DM's that gets as attached to the PCs as the players do. :D
ralixgaudreau 07-17-05, 01:47 AM	Jorasco has an altar of rez and dragonmark heirs to revive her. Besides the Doloruth effect has no effect on souls or ressurection being 10 years x lvl is useless. If you want to change de Core rules suit yourself. Keith has said that the intent was the Dolurrh effect applied to the spirits of the dead, though as someone else has pointed out, it's not explicitly spelled out in the ECS. So, it's up to the DM how to handle it. I think aelyrinth (sp?) put it nicely -- if you like a noir game, then the spirit makes those Will saves every day, but if you prefer your game with lots of pulp, then the spirits of the dead aren't visitors, and resurrection will work when you cast it several years later. Besides, it's not like this is the first thing in the core rules that needs to be slightly (or not so slightly) tweaked or even outright rewritten to fit the mood of the setting. And even if you go with the noir interpretation such that the spirit loses its memory and can't be resurrected 10 *days* later, never mind 10 years later, there are still other benefits to resurrection over raise dead...
BloodyRoots 07-17-05, 03:26 AM	I cant help but imagaine the crowds that would be gathered around the halfling clerics residence. Some dragging along thier sick and dying, others thier dead loved ones. Mostly though I can see demonstrators, protests, mobs of people arguing the morality of resurrection. Imagine the Schivo case times 1000. It would be divisive to say the least.
Sarlax 07-17-05, 03:28 AM	Keith has said that the intent was the Dolurrh effect applied to the spirits of the dead, though as someone else has pointed out, it's not explicitly spelled out in the ECS. I wonder how widespread and concrete that intent was. I noted the possibility of Dolurrh affecting the dead in the Keeping Resurrection Rare thread as a something of stretch. It's easy to do the math on this effect: even the most extraordinarily willful person in Eberron will rapidly fail this save. After several weeks, the DC will have escalated far beyond the ability of almost any creature to make it without rolling a natural 20. At that point, you need to rolling natural 20s every day to not lose the will to leavel - for eternity. The effect this would have on resurrection magic is clear: resurrection after a couple weeks in Eberron wouldn't ever work. This was obviously never the intent of the Eberron design team. They certainly wouldn't have expected the setting's DMs to know to look for such a strong limit on resurrection in a brief paragraph in the section on Eberron's planes. Now, even if we assume that the "Dolurrh Effect" was intended to hold souls but was just overlooked in the ECS, there's been plenty of opportunity to correct it. Sharn, for instance, has several paragraphs devoted to how resurrection magic is used in Khorvaire - there's no mention at all of the Dolurrh effect or of the magic being unreliable in any way. None of the Dragon or Dungeons articles or the Dragonshards or the adventurers discuss this, either.
Sarlax 07-17-05, 03:44 AM	I cant help but imagaine the crowds that would be gathered around the halfling clerics residence. I doubt it. The people of Khorvaire have millenia of experience with clerics and other healers not using their power to heal just anyone. If Jack Average from Los Angeles gained the power to heal with a touch, yeah, there'd be a swarm of people around him begging him (or threatening him) for the use of his power. But Jack d'Jorasco and John the Cleric have been around for centuries. People know that begging or threatening these guys doesn't work. You either have to shell out the cash or be some divinely suitable target. They don't do it for free or for no reason and everyone knows that. Jorasco and clerics who can raise the dead are like doctors on Earth. There are hundreds or thousands of people in most major cities on the planet who need medical help who can't afford it. Largely, though, they accept that the medical system won't help them for nothing, so there are no massive crowds seeking the benevolent touch of an M.D. Likewise with House Jorasco.
ekomega 07-17-05, 04:28 AM	I bet if you went to a doctor's house and put a gun (or broadsword) to his head, he'd treat your wounds, much like the Jorasco heir would use the Altar of Resurrection if you put a wand down his throat (or up his...). A Jorasco heir might have bodyguards, but not in his bedroom. Sure, you probably wouldn't get away with it, but that's the same in real life. You're not expecting to pull this off without consequences. If it was me, I'd rather be imprisoned with my wife alive, then around with her dead. This doesn't happen in real life because no one can bring back the dead. But if someone could, people would be all over that. The Jorasco heir raising the dead is still a miracle, and a miracle that ordinary people have not seen for milennia, if ever. But if word got out that this cleric could bring back the dead as successfully as the PHB says, I bet the heir's life would be in serious jeopardy.