Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Korhal IV 09-19-04, 08:31 PM	There is one thing, just one thing, that I hate about Eberron. I can sum it up in one word. Sharn. There, said it. Sharn makes no sense in the world of Eberron! It doesn't make sense as a population center, a trade center, or anything. Let's look at trade. Crack open your ECSB and look at Breland's entry. Sharn's described as an industrial capital. In fact, Breland's exports all include industrial goods, so far so good. However, those industrial goods are, for the most part, on the big list of Things Not To Sell To Other Nations In the Last War. Why would you export armor and plowshares to your enemies? Wouldn't you much rather they be naked and starving? Love freedom all you want, but the freedom to sell swords to raiding barbarians is a bit of a stretch. (John Quincy Adams, American Founding Father, is on record with the quote "War is the utmost enemy of freedom", which is the starting point for my thesis on Breland in general sucking, but that's a different thread.) Now, flip to the Khorvaire entry at the very beginning. You can locate the Hilt and Sharn quite easily. Note that Sharn is smack in the middle of the southern coast, and now start noting what other nations can be reached from the southern coast. The Shadow Marches, Zilargo, Darguun, Droaam, Q'Barra, even the Lhazaar Principalities, since their ships reach that far. Now, half of these are more likely to rob than trade (Lhazaar, Darguun, Droaam), and I find it hard to believe the ruling authorities would allow the shipment of advanced technology to known enemies (If the Last War continues anywhere, it's on the Breland-Droaam border, after all). So we're left with Q'Barra, an agricultural refugee colony, the Shadow Marches, which only export a few rare dragonshards (and while those deals may be lucrative, I don't see them as the backbone of a metropolitan economy), and Zilargo. I don't have my ECSB handy, but I doubt there's so much lucre coming from the tightfisted gnomes. Overseas, Sharn can trade only with Aerenal and Xen'drik. Aerenal exports mostly exotic woods, and I doubt the elves import much in the way of heavy full plate or farming equipment. A society that old has to have its own resources. Xen'drik is wilderness - sure, some exotic goods can come from it, like herbs, sahuagin teeth, drow macrame, but trade relies on stability, and I doubt you could describe any Xen'drik community as stable. On the population side, Sharn could never have grown to be a large city, based merely on geography. You can't farm very well on the seashore, because of salt in the earth. Likewise, the description of Sharn's cliffside location, barred by a single lonely road over which a tiny hamlet barely fits, isn't one that inspires faith in the city's ability to sustain itself with food. The imports Breland really needs - foodstuffs, mostly - come from the interior of Khorvaire. The Thronehold Sea extends fingers into every one of the Five Nations (which, IMO, was a nifty touch, especially since the waterways don't look artificial the way my homebrew ones do). Trade makes much more sense over the river than around the continent. There should be metropolises along the rivers (like Paris over the river Seine, or Rome and the river Tiber, or London and the Thames river, etc), and not along the coasts. Basically, Sharn feels like an even more artificial version of Waterdeep. Don't get me wrong, I own and like my fair share of the Realms, but Waterdeep always stuck in my craw for the same reasons. Sharn isn't a place that makes sense except in a metagame sense, and the ECSB is actually kinda blatant about it with all the hint hint, wink wink about Sharn being a great place for newbie adventurers to start out in because you can pretty much throw anything in there and have it make sense (which says a lot). So much effort and coolness went into Eberron, and then this. Gah. And they're coming out with the Sharn book first so they can pimp it out even more, when there's a horde more awesome places to go, like Riedra, the Reaches, Karrnath, etc. Anyone got any justifications for Sharn, or what? It just sounds like a crutch for the guy who's clueless about a starting point. edit: that said, anyone have spoilers on the new Sharn book? I might as well buy it and pillage parts for other cities in Eberron. :D
Greyson 09-19-04, 08:49 PM	I stridently disagree with your sentiments on Sharn. Sharn is a fantastic, fantasy city lush with potential for player characters to meet and interact with each other and NPCs; conduct research and develop leads for their adventures; buy, sell and trade anything imaginiable; and find a means to travel anywhere in Khorvaire. I certainly will not debate the science and methods of feeding Sharn's population, managing its trade or otherwise maintain its populace and metropolitan nature. Sharn is a fantasy city of magic and supernatural design. I think Sharn sets a new standard for metropolitan fantasy. Only a narrow use of imagination and a resistance to suspend reality allows the idea of what Sharn represents detract from the wonder that the City of Towers is and can become. And, I am very excited about the Sharn supplement. As are the players in my Eberron campaign. We've had a taste of The Cogs, and we wan tmore.
Korhal IV 09-19-04, 09:13 PM	Meet NPCs, find leads for adventures, buy and sell magic items - wow, that is unique. :mymy: Quick, tell me more! Fantasy doesn't always have to follow physics, but it does have to follow its own internal logic. If one wishes to have a world-renowned center of trade, one should give some thought to whom said center trades with. I get the ugly feeling Sharn was heaped up by the guys at Turbine, or their contacts in WotC, for a future expansion that will involve Sharn. D&D Online will take place just across the ocean in Stormreach, after all, and several Turbine-developed monsters and NPCs will enter Eberronic canon. Heck, even Hellcow worked in the MMO industry for a while. One hundred city districts in Sharn the book. San Francisco has about eight; Imperial Rome had twelve, over the span of a few hundred years (and its traffic was so bad the Emperors restricted chariots to night hours only!). All this attention on Sharn is like going to Disneyland for the teacup ride.
ENHenry 09-20-04, 11:27 AM	First of all, I preface all of my discussions with the nigh-infamous Hong's Rule - "thinking about fantasy too much is bad." (Hong is a nigh-legendary forum poster from r.g.f.d., whose acquaintence I got to meet at ENWorld). FIRST of all, traditional field-farming is not the end-all to maintaining a food supply. There is quite a bit of farming that can be done in and under Sharn proper. For one thing, there are varieties of mushrooms and fungi that prefer dark, moist, and warm conditions - conditions which the cogs are well suited for. Fishing cannot be performed on arable fields, but CAN be performed below the cliffs of Sharn. There are a number of magic spells (plant growth is one) that can be used to enhance yields of edible vegetation. SECOND, The nations of Khorvaire are no longer at war, and even then the main war machines (warforged and skyships) are no longer being traded; Even after World War I, other nations were selling Germany small arms and vehicles. Breland, just like every other nation, suffered losses during the war; because no nation is self-sufficient, trade occurs where war does not. Everybody was hurt for luxury items and materiel (a truism for all large-scale wars), so now that relations have been normalized, strange bedfellows are made. THIRD, keep in mind that Breland was not at war with everybody; the allies and enemies changed quite a lot in 100 years. FINALLY, I think you are understimating Xen'drik's potential for wealth. There are HUGE untapped reserves of natural resources, and we have every reason to believe that Stormreach is a fairly stable community through which wealth is funnelled back to the mainland. Sharn's population has been a subject for the grist mill of many, many other threads, and I really don't have much to say about it, since I find the numbers a little low even for war depopulation, myself. But attribute it to war depopulation, or adjust the numbers, and that little problem clears itself up. In other words, Sharn does not bug me, and in fact intrigues me quite a bit as an excellent "Gotham" location that serves its dramatic purpose as well. It doesn't have any problems that cannot be solved with conventional expalanations, or with judicious use of magic.
ChrisTheS 09-20-04, 08:43 PM	The boards ate my last post, so I'll try again, but it won't be in as much detail as before. I believe the demographics for the whole setting have been officially acknowledged as in need of revision, so I won't address that. The reason Sharn can be a major exporter while being in the midst of potentially inhospitable seas is simple: nowhere does it say that the majority of exports are transported by ship. The lightning rail is not a recent occurrence, and it is likely that the majority of Sharn's exports are shipped by train. Sharn's location at the Hilt is not so much beneficial as an exporting seaport, but as an optimum location for conducting trade in exotic goods from Aerenal and Xen'drik (Xen'drik's principle 'exports' being archaelogical artifacts--no accident that Morgrave University is located in Sharn). In short, Sharn is mainly meant to take things in by sea, not send them out. With regards to whom these goods would be traded with: it says quite clearly under Breland's description that its biggest customers are House Cannith and Zilargo. Cannith is an economic powerhouse even by the standards of the Houses of Mark, and Zilargo has always been one of the richest nations (and not necessarily through being bean-counters either--that distinction belongs more to the dwarves). And neither partner would be affected in the slightest by the war, Cannith being neutral and Zilargo being allied with Breland for the last thirty years of the conflict. Cannith even had a headquarters there, so there would be no risk of the lines of transport to Cyre being disrupted. Those two alone can probably buy up most of the excess that Sharn can produce (bearing in mind that Breland being the biggest nation makes for a sizeable internal trade as well; the nation only exports what it doesn't need at home). --- Then of course, there's a big stylistic difference between Sharn and Waterdeep: Waterdeep isn't nearly as much like Coruscant as Sharn is :) (that's a plus, by the way, at least in my view)
Indigo 09-20-04, 09:54 PM	As a quick note on trade, don't forget Sarlona. The Riedrans may not let outsiders into their nation, but it wouldn't surprise me if there is trade between the two -- and if you're a city on the east of Sarlona, that leaves you with Stormreach, Sharn, and Zarash'ak as your three main ports -- and Sharn is the largest of those by far. So Sharn may be a path for exotic goods from Sarlona and Xen'drik that simply can't be obtained elsewhere. Just a thought.
q'afuu 09-20-04, 10:06 PM	1) However, those industrial goods are, for the most part, on the big list of Things Not To Sell To Other Nations In the Last War. 2) On the population side, Sharn could never have grown to be a large city, based merely on geography.1) The War officially ended 2 years ago. Any entrepreneur with half an ounce of sense has expanded his business to include former enemies. 2) It's a fantasy setting with magic. Moreover, that magic gets ostensibly used for practical purposes, rather than being restricted to keep it 'special'. Sharn makes use of the volcanic activity deep beneath the city. Those specific circumstances can't be emulated elsewhere without nigh-insurmountable difficulties; getting food to the city to feed the workers is a peace of cake compared to that.
ChrisTheS 09-20-04, 10:10 PM	(q'afuu: I think the objection was made in the sense of 'who were they selling it to during the last hundred years,' not 'who are they selling to now'.)
UltimaGabe 09-20-04, 10:35 PM	the ECSB is actually kinda blatant about it with all the hint hint, wink wink about Sharn being a great place for newbie adventurers to start out in because you can pretty much throw anything in there and have it make sense (which says a lot). I've heard this argument before, and I don't agree with it one bit. True, the ECSB emphasizes the possibility of starting your PCs in Sharn, even to the extent of basing the adventure in the back of the book in the depths of Sharn itself. However, what's so bad about that? I started DMing back a couple years ago, with a moderate amount of knowledge of the game, and after one horribly failed homebrew campaign, I bought the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, hoping that it would make things easier for me in the area of worldbuilding. And it did- don't get me wrong. However, I remember the first day I was getting ready to start up a campaign, I spent an hour and a half (with the PCs sitting around with little to do other than play video games) trying to look through the book for a good place to start the campaign, based on the races and classes of the PCs. Did I find anything suitable? Not really. I ended up settling in Cormyr, still without too much knowledge about it or what to do with it. In short, I, personally, think that the ECSB did guys like me a favor by putting emphasis on a city like Sharn. After all, let's say you made a campaign setting, and while you were making it, you noticed one city that you (the maker) liked more than others. Naturally, you'd give more description for that town, wouldn't you? I highly doubt that you'd force yoruself to fully expand upon every single city in your campaign setting. And, so, if Sharn ended up with the most information about it, what were the game designers supposed to do? Say, "Although Sharn has the most information given about it, DMs are encouraged to start their campaigns elsewhere. Make up your own dang information, because we haven't yet"? If they've already got it going, they might as well stick with it, right? And as for Sharn: City of Towers being first, what do you suggest they do instead? Should the thousands of DMs around the country that actually LIKED Sharn be forced to read about Zilargo or the Mror Holds, some place that they DIDN'T place their campaign, before they can have a book about the place that they DID? It's really a matter of common sense. The designers liked Sharn, so they decided to work with it rather than let good ideas go to waste. You don't seem to like Sharn, and that's definitely your opinion. However, you have to realize other peoples' reasoning, in spite of the fact that you may not agree with it.
Roxlimn 09-20-04, 11:27 PM	Korhal IV: There, said it. Sharn makes no sense in the world of Eberron! It doesn't make sense as a population center, a trade center, or anything. We don't know enough about the setting to make this statement. Any number of factors can be in effect to make this occurence true. A better tack would be to speculate on why Sharn is an industrial center, not belabor the "fact" that it can't be. Let's look at trade. Crack open your ECSB and look at Breland's entry. Sharn's described as an industrial capital. In fact, Breland's exports all include industrial goods, so far so good. However, those industrial goods are, for the most part, on the big list of Things Not To Sell To Other Nations In the Last War. Why would you export armor and plowshares to your enemies? Wouldn't you much rather they be naked and starving? Presumably, Breland trades with its allies, not its enemies. A major ally that has been steadfast in its alliance is Zilargo, an obvious partner for consistent trade. No other nation has been mentioned to have had anything resembling a consistent trading partner. Now, flip to the Khorvaire entry at the very beginning. You can locate the Hilt and Sharn quite easily. Note that Sharn is smack in the middle of the southern coast, and now start noting what other nations can be reached from the southern coast. The Shadow Marches, Zilargo, Darguun, Droaam, Q'Barra, even the Lhazaar Principalities, since their ships reach that far. Now, half of these are more likely to rob than trade (Lhazaar, Darguun, Droaam), and I find it hard to believe the ruling authorities would allow the shipment of advanced technology to known enemies (If the Last War continues anywhere, it's on the Breland-Droaam border, after all). So we're left with Q'Barra, an agricultural refugee colony, the Shadow Marches, which only export a few rare dragonshards (and while those deals may be lucrative, I don't see them as the backbone of a metropolitan economy), and Zilargo. I don't have my ECSB handy, but I doubt there's so much lucre coming from the tightfisted gnomes. Breland has borders with practically each one of the Five Nations on the continent except for Karrnath, and many of those it does not share a border with can be accessed with relative ease from its ports. This means that no matter who it's currently allied with, it can trade with that partner without having to go through another nation. Like in normal society, I expect a great deal of international trade within a solid land continent to be conducted mostly by land. Oh, and the gnomes aren't tightfisted. They're knowledge buffs, but I do not recall a stingy attitude as receiving a great deal of attention. If anything, gnomes are quite free with their money and trade a great deal, since they export stuff way out of proportion to their size. On the population side, Sharn could never have grown to be a large city, based merely on geography. You can't farm very well on the seashore, because of salt in the earth. Likewise, the description of Sharn's cliffside location, barred by a single lonely road over which a tiny hamlet barely fits, isn't one that inspires faith in the city's ability to sustain itself with food. No city grows beyond a certain size on food alone. After exceeding a certain size, most cities need to import food. The ability to import foodstuffs and other trading necessities and excercise sanitation is what makes a city large. Sharn maintains a direct line to both Thrane and Aundair, two of the notable agricultural nations on the continent. Only Karrnath is in a better position to maintain agricultural imports, and its native agriculture is much poorer than Breland's. The imports Breland really needs - foodstuffs, mostly - come from the interior of Khorvaire. The Thronehold Sea extends fingers into every one of the Five Nations (which, IMO, was a nifty touch, especially since the waterways don't look artificial the way my homebrew ones do). Trade makes much more sense over the river than around the continent. There should be metropolises along the rivers (like Paris over the river Seine, or Rome and the river Tiber, or London and the Thames river, etc), and not along the coasts. Rail changes everything. You'll notice that there are a great deal of settlements around rivers in the continent, but bear in mind that this has, until recently, been a continent at war. Cities right along the borders (as rivers have a war of stabilizing borders) isn't much too likely to survive. Sharn's relative isolation coupled with rapid access by rail makes it a much better place to start a business HQ in the Last War than, say, right on the Cyre/Thrane border. Trade travels along rivers, but also travels along roads and rails. I don't agree that Sharn is more artifical than Waterdeep. In fact, it makes a great deal more sense. Situated in a relatively protected portion of Breland, a nation with land contacts everywhere and with easy access to ports, rails, and roads, I can see why Sharn is a good place to place a bustling cosmopolitan city. Compare this to Waterdeep that's right in the middle of essentially nowhere.
Bubba333 09-21-04, 12:07 AM	Didn't Rome import almost everything it consumed, while exporting very little? Anyhoo, if Sharn doesn't make sense to you, that's fine. However a LOT of us love it and it makes perfect sense to us.
Somebloke 09-21-04, 12:14 AM	Sharn fulfills a desperately needed role in Ebberron; it's a place that comes the closest to invoking the dirty, dritty skyscaper-streets of the 1920's pulp-noir books...let's face it, if Sam Snead was a half-elf, he would be set up in Sharn.
Splendide 09-21-04, 12:34 AM	As regards the trade of weapons and armour internationally, I would suggest a brief study of the history of the Krupps. Germany frequently came up against countries with Krupp-made armaments over the history of the family company, much to their chagrin. I just googled this (http://www.geocities.com/7897401/merchant/merchant_index.html) up, and it looks to be an excellent resource on the topic. As for a point of trade, its worth noting that it is at a juncture of river and ocean, and secondly points of trade continue on even after their initial geographic usefulness. New York is an excellent example. It has been indicated that Sharn was not founded by humans, but by goblinoids. At that time, from their perspective, Sharn certainly could've been a centre of their empire as they seem to exist in Khorvaire primarily from the south-west. From there, it is just a matter of the site being ready to be used and expanded on. New York is still an important port, but it would still be important without its sea activity...the fact that it is an established centre of importance & population is enough. What Sharn wants, someone is always ready to supply, and vice versa. Re-reading the initial post, I think you're perceiving that because the Eberron game is new, that Sharn only just popped into existence in-game. This is not the case.
Splendide 09-21-04, 12:42 AM	In fact, what I think is more questionable is the idea that the Lhazaar principalities are so regressed in terms of recognised trade. Thats a situation that I can't think of a precedent for, unless the human expansion into Khorvaire was faster than the `white' expansion into North America. Even then, trade between Sarlona and Khorvaire would still be best suited to go through Lhazaar, surely?
Serpentine 09-21-04, 01:12 AM	The Lhazaar Principalities are small, rocky, and bitterly cold islands at the very northern tip of Khorvaire. It would be like settling the Aleutian islands off the coast of Alaska, only colder. Or perhaps Greenland during the time of Erik the Red.
ChrisTheS 09-21-04, 01:22 AM	You know, there's a point... we know that a group of human refugees came to Khorvaire from Sarlona ages ago, but it's never made clear (correct me if I'm wrong) where exactly they landed, and whether they came to the east coast of the continent or the west...
Splendide 09-21-04, 01:34 AM	Ah, Greenland. Point made, though I don't recall the climate as being written up as being particularly inhospitable.
NOOC PHD 09-21-04, 04:14 AM	The one obvious objection to the question of food - fish! It is an historical fact that almost all large, premodern cities existed either on the coast or on major watercourses. Waterborne travel is the only way to ship in food before it spoils. And fishing can support huge population bases (just ask the Japanese). Sharn is fine for food.
Saurenda 09-21-04, 04:28 AM	Gotham City, Metropolis, etc don't really have a 'place' in thier worlds either, and thier success and startling need for heroes and adventures make them hot spots for the unexplainable. When dealing with a fantasy setting, I just accept that certain things are likely to happen in one place more often than others. Sharn fits the description of the fantasy metropolis which although it has so much, needs so much more. Costal city: Check High Crime rate: Check Believablity? Well...as believable as arcane magic is anyway =D Large population of unobservant people: Oh thats one dousy of a Check Plenty of property to cause colateral damage towards: Check :drool: Opertunity, Crisis,...it all happens here and in daily alotments. As for food most of the food for new work comes from the midsection of the US. Nothing stopped NYC from growing so big, it's that coast line thats oh so important.
Saurenda 09-21-04, 04:30 AM	As regards the trade of weapons and armour internationally, I would suggest a brief study of the history of the Krupps. Germany frequently came up against countries with Krupp-made armaments over the history of the family company, much to their chagrin. I just googled this (http://www.geocities.com/7897401/merchant/merchant_index.html) up, and it looks to be an excellent resource on the topic. As for a point of trade, its worth noting that it is at a juncture of river and ocean, and secondly points of trade continue on even after their initial geographic usefulness. New York is an excellent example. It has been indicated that Sharn was not founded by humans, but by goblinoids. At that time, from their perspective, Sharn certainly could've been a centre of their empire as they seem to exist in Khorvaire primarily from the south-west. From there, it is just a matter of the site being ready to be used and expanded on. New York is still an important port, but it would still be important without its sea activity...the fact that it is an established centre of importance & population is enough. What Sharn wants, someone is always ready to supply, and vice versa. Re-reading the initial post, I think you're perceiving that because the Eberron game is new, that Sharn only just popped into existence in-game. This is not the case. Wow. Oo; Oh well I tried. I'll read the entire thread next time.
olshanski_home 09-21-04, 12:03 PM	Khoral: I read your post about sharn. I think you've made a lot of valid points. Thanks for posting it. {EDIT: Removed some potentially inflamatory comments}
Korhal IV 09-21-04, 01:49 PM	Well, firstly, thanks everyone for input, especially those guys who mentioned shrooms as a mainstay of Sharnish diet. Seems appropriate, IMO. :D I focused on sea-going trade in my initial post because it made the most sense for Sharn. I'm still (sadly) without my ECSB, but I recall quite a few big Brelish cities to the north of Sharn, which would make more logical centers for overland trade. The lightning rail plays less of a role than one might think, considering that (again, based on sketchy memory) half of the Brelish lines go straight into the Mournland. Two years is also a very short time to restart trade with former enemies, especially given the deep wells of bitter hatred that no doubt exist between the citizens of various nations. At any rate, this is probably an emotion-based argument anyway, so it's not like we're going to get anywhere on this. You folks can wander around in Sharn and my group will wander around in Cree. Happy gaming.
Kintara 09-21-04, 02:08 PM	Well, my only point would be that the idea of the coast not being arable because of "salt on the earth" is simply not true. At least, not to any meaningful extent. I live in Hawaii, and I can assure you that the native Hawaiians grew a great deal of food on their islands. A very very great deal, in fact. The island I'm on was covered with taro fields, and I can assure you that the ocean is pretty close by, no matter where you are on the island. And then, of course is the aformentioned fish (which the Hawaiians used quite extensively, as well).
billseurer 09-21-04, 02:16 PM	If one wishes to have a world-renowned center of trade, one should give some thought to whom said center trades with. Obviously you think that Hong Kong was a hoax on our world then. All the places it traded with were far away, it had no good land for farming, and it was surrounded by enemies.
malkav138 09-21-04, 02:40 PM	I like Sharn. I think its fun. The idea of of city like Sharn is no more absurd than Calimport in the middle of the desert built on layer after layer of previous ocupants who bound Genies and Djinn into the desert itself. Sounds kinda like binding elementals in a weird sort of way. Calimport also boasts high magic and airships. Hmmmmm. Sharn is no more unbeleivable than Sigil, and Sigil was the funest city I ever had a chance to play in. Sadly the Planescape books are no longer in print so the only book I own that has to do with the settil is the Book on Sigil. In a game that boasts spell flinging wizards, shape changing druids, vampires, goblins , trolls, and the Tarasque(I think I spelled that incorrectly), is it so absurd to think that a city like Sharn could in all probabilty exist. I think the issue at hand is one of gameplay style. because a game set in any Metropolis area has a decidedly different feel to it than a game set in the wilds. If one style doesnt work for you then use the other. Personally I find Sharn to be very interesting, and I am really hoping that the Sharn book in November has a lot of the history of the city itself in it. But as with any opinion, This is mine and you have stated yours. So in the end if you don't like Sharn pull out your trusty Sharpy and put a big X on the map. It wouldnt be hard to think of a good reason for sharn to just fall down given all of the magic and technology involved in its creation. Its quite feasable for it to just go BOOM!! (and actually it might even make for a pretty fun campaign, if you can image what implications the destruction would have. It would certainly give a more somber serious outlook to a game. You could also use the protagonists that destroyed the city as a major villian) "Halt the neglebedience!!!" :)
Ch@pel 09-21-04, 02:44 PM	Korhal's argument breaks down into three basic parts: Sharn sucks/ is unrealistic because (A) it exports industrial goods, but that shouldn't help it thrive since it has no one to sell to since it is at war, (B) it doesn't have the resources to sustain a population that large, (C) because the creators seem to favor it and even suggest that we use it as a starting point. I feel this point is unmerited and the evidence for it is flimsy at best. As far as industry goes, you're assuming that all of the industrial companys/ factories in the Cogs are managed by Breland's government. In fact, I'd bet that close to all of the industry in Sharn is privately owned and operated. Once they've manufactured whatever it is that they are trying to sell, they can either strike deals with whoever they want or use a Dragonmarked House as a middleman. Look at the factory owner in "Steel Shadows" in Dungeon. (I don't have the issue with me, I can't remember his name) Do you think that guy has any reservations about who he sells to? Gold = gold. Also, the CSB specifically states that alliances changed routinely throughout the war. Its poor judgement to assume that because all the nations are at war they simply have no kind of civilized contact with each other. These aren't barbarian tribes at war; these are civilized nations. Better yet, they were nations under the same kingdom (until recently) who have a long history of commerce and political interaction. To say that simply because a war broke out, all the nations simply stop interacting in anyway other than battle is rather unrealistic. I'd bet that Breland's (and by extension, Sharn's) industry helped it greatly while negotiating wartime treaties with the other nations. If Breland comes to a short peace with Aundair, you better beleive that one of Aundair's biggest reasons for agreeing to the pact is Breland's industry. And while war does increase international tensions, it also always generates LARGE profits for whoever has the industrial capacity to feed it. Look at America before they entered into WWII. The government certainly had no love for the Axis in any way shape or form, and were definately looking to get into the war as soon as possible, they just needed to overcome America's post-WWI isolationist stance. However, during this time American industry thrived thanks to the war. They didn't even need to pay for shipping, the deal was, anyone who wanted anything from America (guns, ammo, tanks, food, etc.) simply had to come over and pick it up. So it's location on the Hilt, at the southwest of the continent shouldn't be too big of a problem, (especially with fast elemental galleons) on the contrary, it is a lot safer and more defensible than most other cities. Keep in mind also that all the Five Nations are connected by an interior waterway; ships don't necessarily have to curcumnavigate the whole of Khorvaire to reach the other side. As for Sharn not being able to generate enough food for its people, well thats just plain silly. Like someone said earlier, look at Japan. Fishing can definately feed huge populations, no problem. I'm sure there are also many farming communities throughout Breland (probably ones not even on the CSB's map) who can help supply food. Also, the people who run the industrial workplaces in Sharn must have money, as do the nobles and the upper class Houses. People with money have an astonishing ability to get whatever the hell they want/ need. They have a vested interest in feeding their workers, not to mention themselves and their families. Basic supply and demand says that food will not be a problem in Sharn. Anyone with a ship, an enterprising atittude and some basic business sense could set up a importing company. He goes to Aundair, loads up on cheese or whatever (why would Aundair refuse to sell to him, even if they somehow knew where the food was going? If they grow food to sell it, then they sell it. It isn't a nation of spiteful, irrational five year olds.) and then brings it back to Sharn, marks it up, and sells it for a hefty profit. Your third arguement is what I suspect is the real reason for this post. You seem to have a problem with WotC pushing the use of one city over another. Thats a fine point, it is entirely fair to argue that they should not push one location over another, especially right after the product is released and there are many other interesting places to explore as well. But realize that this is your issue, it is not necessarily shared by the majority of the people playing the game, and trying to "prove" the unrealism of the city in question is not the way to go about making your point. Sharn is perfectly viable as a major city, as well as main locale for an adventuring group. If you want to start someplace else, do so. But don't try to say that Sharn is "for newbies" or unrealistic just because you want to rail against WotC for "pimping" it.
spamfiltre 09-21-04, 03:04 PM	I agree that Sharn is the Eberron answer to "we need a city where you can buy anything for a price and lots of adventures could happen." If it doesn't make sense to you, that's understandable, because we don't have the history to back its existence. One point that was mentioned before is that Sharn is an ancient city. It could very well be completely illogical, and yet still exist, because we don't know what the world was like when the city was founded. Take the real-world example of the African colonies. European nations came in, decided to draw completely arbitrary (at least from a cultural standpoint) borders, then establish trade hubs. It made no sense for native Africans to have roads leading from the center of the continent to the coast, but that's what the European nations needed for trade, so that's what the Europeans built. Now that the African nations are independent, you don't see them demolishing cities on the coast - the infrastructure is there, so why not use it? Maybe Sharn was originally a colony from some powerful, now-extinct, empire from Xendrik. That empire's influence has long-since passed, but Sharn remains because it was already established. Why is the U.S. capital on the east coast? Strategically, it makes much more sense for it to be in Iowa, Nebraska or Colorado. It's been there so long, it would cost too much to change its location at this point. Think of future archeologists saying "why would they place hundreds of miles of these stones in a line across this blasted wasteland." (the Mournlands). If you don't like Sharn, it's not hard to choose a different starting location, but if you try to rationalize the fantasy setting, all you are going to do is waste a lot of energy over something you can't change (published material from WoTC).
Korhal IV 09-21-04, 06:50 PM	Like I said, this is a dead thread anyway, but so long as people continue to argue, I might as well play. The factual examples of Japan and Hawaii are incorrect. Hawaii was never, and has never been, a large industrial center. Industry requires manpower and land, and generally contaminates the territory around it (especially in the case of smelting metal, which often creates refuse metal to be disposed of). If you took a big chunk of Hawaii's populace and thrust them into primitive factories, it's debateable as to whether the remaining Hawaiian fishermen and farmers would be able to support everyone else. The same example likewise applies to Japan, albeit on a more limited scale, since the Japanese islands are much larger than Hawaii. I'll note that Japan's desperate need for raw materials and land was the reason they launched themselves into World War II. Even today, companies we think of as Japanese (Sony, Nintendo, Toyota, Mitsubishi) operate most of their plants offshore, in Vietnam, either Korea, the Philippines, and China. Industry or agriculture, folks, make your choice. The debate is irrelevant anyway since the ECSB clearly states in various places (like the Eldeen Reaches entry) that Breland needs to import food, so clearly they're not making enough to feed themselves anyway, fishing or no fishing. The second argument, that shifting alliances allowed Sharn to continue trade with one or another nation, swapping customers as often as treaties, has some merit. However, we're again brought to the fact that Sharn essentially made weapons of war during this time period, and the finest such weapons possible. Private ownership or no private ownership, if a merchant sells weapons to the enemy, the government will shut them down. Failure to do so is slow suicide. And the Brelish government would be slow to reintroduce arms trades with new allies, since the decision-making on that is done by the self-same generals and officers that are sporting nifty new peg legs from the last encounter with their new ally. Like I said in my second post, this is largely a personal matter, so it's useless to argue on it.
Splendide 09-21-04, 07:24 PM	But your second argument has already been answered by reality, as previously referenced in this thread. Here it is (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://www.geocities.com/7897401/merchant/merchant_index.html&origin=) again. When you rely on agricultural imports to exist, you would be only too eager to trade weapons for food with your new ally.
Korhal IV 09-21-04, 07:29 PM	But your second argument has already been answered by reality, as previously referenced in this thread. Here it is (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://www.geocities.com/7897401/merchant/merchant_index.html&origin=) again. As far as I read, it talked about companies selling weapons pre-war, and inciting war. Not during war. And I made an effort to read quite a bit of it, though unfortunately my time was limited. Besides, we're talking individual makers, not conglomerates and corporations. Think of gunmakers in the 1700s - each weapon was handcrafted by a handful of craftsmen. The conglomerate analogy is more apt for the dragonmarked houses, which sold warforged and hired out mercenaries with abandon.
Splendide 09-21-04, 07:32 PM	I think the mistake is thinking about the great war as being just one war with fixed alliances. I'm not sure why you're saying individual makers are the point of discussion, given House Cannith's (and all Dragonmarked houses') corporate nature.
q'afuu 09-21-04, 08:51 PM	(q'afuu: I think the objection was made in the sense of 'who were they selling it to during the last hundred years,' not 'who are they selling to now'.) You can't object to what a book says about a current situation as if that was also the pre-existing situation when it blatantly wasn't. Well, you can, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. ;)
NOOC PHD 09-21-04, 09:07 PM	Like I said, this is a dead thread anyway, but so long as people continue to argue, I might as well play. Why thank you for deigning to join us in the conversation that you started. The factual examples of Japan and Hawaii are incorrect...The same example likewise applies to Japan, albeit on a more limited scale, since the Japanese islands are much larger than Hawaii. I'll note that Japan's desperate need for raw materials and land was the reason they launched themselves into World War II. Even today, companies we think of as Japanese (Sony, Nintendo, Toyota, Mitsubishi) operate most of their plants offshore, in Vietnam, either Korea, the Philippines, and China. Industry or agriculture, folks, make your choice. Japanese cities were huge even prior to industrialisation. In the seventeenth century, the largest city in the world was Japanese. I don't see how Japan's need for raw materials and an empire in the 20th has anything to do with whether or not a coastal city can grow to the size of Sharn, which is why I raised Japan as an example. The second argument, that shifting alliances allowed Sharn to continue trade with one or another nation, swapping customers as often as treaties, has some merit. However, we're again brought to the fact that Sharn essentially made weapons of war during this time period, and the finest such weapons possible. Private ownership or no private ownership, if a merchant sells weapons to the enemy, the government will shut them down. Failure to do so is slow suicide. And the Brelish government would be slow to reintroduce arms trades with new allies, since the decision-making on that is done by the self-same generals and officers that are sporting nifty new peg legs from the last encounter with their new ally. As someone said, Breland wasn't always at war with everyone, and selling arms to your enemy's enemy is a great way to bring down your enemy. Ask Saddam Hussein whether governments get the chance to buy arms from countries that later become their enemies. Like I said in my second post, this is largely a personal matter, so it's useless to argue on it. If it's useless to argue (I'd say discuss) then why did you start the thread in the first place?
Korhal IV 09-22-04, 12:32 AM	Why thank you for deigning to join us in the conversation that you started. You're welcome. :D If it's useless to argue (I'd say discuss) then why did you start the thread in the first place? Mostly to get that off my chest, and see if anyone else agreed. Apparently not.
Ch@pel 09-22-04, 12:46 AM	I used Japan and Hawaii as examples not of large industrial centers but as places with large populations that are able to feed themselves. And those two examples are islands, Sharn is landlocked to boot. However, we're again brought to the fact that Sharn essentially made weapons of war during this time period, and the finest such weapons possible. Incorrect. The CSB actually says that Sharn's arms and armor are typically sub-standard at best, because of mass production. Private ownership or no private ownership, if a merchant sells weapons to the enemy, the government will shut them down. Whoa, whoa, whoa... where are you getting this from? Breland is trying to keep itself afloat, I don't see them slapping restrictions on private trade. In fact, if they did impose regulations like this, you can bet that many businesses would simply move to Zilargo or somewhere else and be done with it. They may keep very potent weapons and machines a secret, but who cares about a few hundred (or thousand) regular longswords? They may keep a little bit of national pride by not selling to the enemy, but hey, if Aundair wants some longswords, they're gonna find a way to get them. Why not line your pockets in the process? Regardless, you're also assuming that when it says that Sharn exports lots of "industrial goods" that means weapons and armor and war machines. Thats a pretty narrow assessment of industry. Look at all the industrial manufacturers in the world today. Now look at the percentage of them that exclusively sell weapons. I don't claim to know, but I'd bet its pretty slim. There is so much more to industry than just weapons. Look we don't work for WotC, and we're not just blinding defending everything they do, and to suggest otherwise is laughable. Have you actually looked at some of the other threads on this board? The people on this board are some of the harshest critics of WotC, and we are very interested in ensuring that Eberron is taken seriously as a setting. We certainly love Keith, but trust me, the minute anyone sees any inconsistancy in his work, they will make SURE he hears about it. You can't just start a thread, make some wild accusations and assumptions, and then tell us "the conversation is over because its personal" when some people point out the flaws in your logic. I'm not trying to even belittle you or anything, we're all just here discussing a topic YOU brought up. Sharn is as believeable as city in a fantasy setting can be, and your points, while well written, just haven't proven anything to the contrary. But, you know what? I'd still like to hear your rebuttal. And if you offer up some better evidence, I'll gladly change my view point. On this board, we don't call this "arguing", its called "discussing".
Korhal IV 09-22-04, 01:48 AM	I'm not trying to even belittle you or anything, we're all just here discussing a topic YOU brought up. Sharn is as believeable as city in a fantasy setting can be, and your points, while well written, just haven't proven anything to the contrary. But, you know what? I'd still like to hear your rebuttal. And if you offer up some better evidence, I'll gladly change my view point. On this board, we don't call this "arguing", its called "discussing". I'm not feeling belittled, but this is like arguing over whether warforged belong in D&D or not - few people get swayed, it's just a gut feeling of "I like this" versus "I don't." I thought I had rational arguments, but frankly they weren't as imposing as I'd mentally built them up to be. My point, if I can rephrase it at this late late date, isn't so much that Sharn can't support itself, it's that Sharn can't do anything other places can't do better. There's plenty of cities in northern Breland closer to the big trading partners and the rivers, without the hassle of cliffsides. Now, with that out of the way, I'll go back to your other points. Selling a few hundred regular longswords is indeed a big thing. If I remember correctly, a longsword is 15 gp, or 150 days' pay for an unskilled laborer. Two longswords will net you his service for a year, or you could sell one sword and equip him with the other, and you now have a functional (albeit poorly trained) soldier for about half a year (unless you just conscript him). So a few hundred swords is a very big deal, for its implications about the status of the other army (i.e., they have new soldiers coming in, and lots of them), and for the relatively vast amount of cash trading hands. Now, in a war with more or less static alliances, such as WW2, you could count on your allies using those troops and swords against the enemy. However, as the Last War drags on, and nations switch sides repeatedly, there's going to be less and less trust between allied nations. If your forefather fought against the Karrnathi, you're going to view the Karrnathi differently when they come knocking on your door and asking sweetly for war machines. Breland is indeed trying to stay afloat, but prosperity takes second place to survival in warfare. Indeed, going back to WW2, American prosperity actually declined during the war, but the military skewed the numbers because of its disproportionate amount of property and draftees - as far as bastions of liberty in warfare go, that's a pretty good example. Breland talks a good talk, but even Athens militarized against Sparta. Your point on industry being about a lot more than just weaponry is good, but in the early ages of industry, there really wasn't much more. You have agricultural equipment, such as scythes, plowshares, and carts, and you have urban equipment, such as carriages, tubing (if you allow plumbing), and building equipment, like iron bracers or window grates. While window grates and plowshares are relatively constant in demand, war changes supply and demand drastically. The farmers have been drafted, after all, they need swords instead of carts.
ENHenry 09-22-04, 09:19 AM	...Indeed, going back to WW2, American prosperity actually declined during the war, but the military skewed the numbers because of its disproportionate amount of property and draftees - as far as bastions of liberty in warfare go, that's a pretty good example. Breland talks a good talk, but even Athens militarized against Sparta. From this site: (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_LXW0Qz54OkC:www.geocitie s.com/Area51/Stargate/3804/US1940s.doc+%22US+Economy+in+World+War+I I%22&hl=en) Clearly, with a war raging in Europe and the associated demands for US goods, resources and capital, the economy rebounded after more than a decade of dislocation and despair. The increases in government military spending offered a much needed heavy dosage of "Keynesian antidepression medicine"; as federal deficit spending in 1941 soared to double the 1939 ratio-to-GNP level, it became a fiscal reality that the war was doing to the economy what no peace-time government could or would - spending and investing in the economy to offer a primer or a good kick-start. Only the outbreak of war in Europe, and the American involvement that would ensue after Pearl Harbour, "brought into operation Keynesian deficit spending of sufficient magnitude to end twelve years of mass unemployment".7 As Gregory Hooks put it: The stimulating effect of World War II on the US economy is frequently cited as the spark that brought and end to the Great Depression, but it was not just a spark. Defense spending was the difference between the depressed 1930s and the booming 1940s.8 " The defense spending was with private contractors - hence, the swords BEGAT plowshares, after the war. The same thing could easily happen to Breland, combining with all of the resources and funding brought back through Xen'drik.
billseurer 09-22-04, 09:42 AM	My point, if I can rephrase it at this late late date, isn't so much that Sharn can't support itself, it's that Sharn can't do anything other places can't do better. There's plenty of cities in northern Breland closer to the big trading partners and the rivers, without the hassle of cliffsides. That's true of vast numbers of real cities on Earth, too. Yet the big old cities keep going and even growing. Once a city hits a certain size it gains momentum and off it goes for good or bad. Businesses and people are attracted to it which makes it grow which attracts more businesses and people. It's a self sustaining cycle. The cliffsides aren't much of a problem in Sharn because of the effects of Skyria(sp?). Going vertically may even be easier than going horizontally.
fizzbang 09-22-04, 11:31 AM	It looks like other people have taken care of Korhal's arguments about whether or not Sharn could exist. Of course, given Keith's professed attitude about storytelling over realistic simulation, this really isn't the most important matter, anyway. Really, you could get away with the cop-out of just saying "magic!" and being done with that. The fact that it works out anyway is just a nice bonus. But I think the more important point is the matter of Sharn's importance and focus in the Eberron CS. Korhal seems to feel that it gets undue attention for being just one city in a massive continent. And, at first, I had that same feeling. But after reading the rest of the book and getting a solid feel for the styles and feels of the setting, I can understand why Sharn is such a focal point. It epitomizes the noir-pulp feel of the setting: it's the city that never sleeps, the city with a million stories, the oppressive metropolis full of danger, variety, and opportunity. Depending on your preferences and style of play, it could be Eberron's version of New York City, Gotham, Ankh-Morpork, or Neo-Tokyo. With immigrants from every part of the continent and imports from around the world, it's the place where you can find anything anytime of day. This is ideal for introducing characters with tremendously disparate backgrounds, or introducing new plot elements to a party that uses it as a home base. Citizens come from any walk of life, but regardless of their old nationality, there's a certain Sharn-mentality that they all develop. It's not difficult to see citizens with a more metropolitan bredth of tastes, a certain moral flexibility in general matters (like who to sell weapons to, or who to swindle), and a survival instinct honed in the harshest urban jungle. As they say, if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. It's a perfect setting for any noir storyline you want to run, and it could be the origin of plots involving anywhere else in the world. Need a big city in keeping with the over-the-top scale of pulp stories? You've got Sharn. It's a city that's almost a nation unto itself, with a million tiny alliances and enemies within and without. Nothing's what it seems, and it's built of layer upon layer of ever-changing events. In that way, Sharn's a microcosm of the entire Eberron setting.
Callan Sylvos 10-07-04, 08:15 AM	Like I said, this is a dead thread anyway, but so long as people continue to argue, I might as well play. The factual examples of Japan and Hawaii are incorrect. Hawaii was never, and has never been, a large industrial center. Industry requires manpower and land, and generally contaminates the territory around it (especially in the case of smelting metal, which often creates refuse metal to be disposed of). If you took a big chunk of Hawaii's populace and thrust them into primitive factories, it's debateable as to whether the remaining Hawaiian fishermen and farmers would be able to support everyone else. The same example likewise applies to Japan, albeit on a more limited scale, since the Japanese islands are much larger than Hawaii. I'll note that Japan's desperate need for raw materials and land was the reason they launched themselves into World War II. Even today, companies we think of as Japanese (Sony, Nintendo, Toyota, Mitsubishi) operate most of their plants offshore, in Vietnam, either Korea, the Philippines, and China. Industry or agriculture, folks, make your choice. The debate is irrelevant anyway since the ECSB clearly states in various places (like the Eldeen Reaches entry) that Breland needs to import food, so clearly they're not making enough to feed themselves anyway, fishing or no fishing. The second argument, that shifting alliances allowed Sharn to continue trade with one or another nation, swapping customers as often as treaties, has some merit. However, we're again brought to the fact that Sharn essentially made weapons of war during this time period, and the finest such weapons possible. Private ownership or no private ownership, if a merchant sells weapons to the enemy, the government will shut them down. Failure to do so is slow suicide. And the Brelish government would be slow to reintroduce arms trades with new allies, since the decision-making on that is done by the self-same generals and officers that are sporting nifty new peg legs from the last encounter with their new ally. Like I said in my second post, this is largely a personal matter, so it's useless to argue on it. Hi all am new to the boards. Never thought there would be so much to read but hay. I saw your comment on the coast thing and had to comment. I am from South Africa and contrary to popular believe no we do not still have lions chasing us down the streets of our cities :D We even have electricity! ;) Now that that's said. KZN (Natal) is one of SA's most fertile and beautful areas. It serves as one of the riches sugar producing areas in the contry and major harbor. All in all if I look at Durban, I can see how Sharn fits into the world.
Alexius D'Cannith 10-07-04, 09:34 AM	Point 1 the goblins founded it, this may have marked a border or mid point of the 'heart' of the empire for prestige, also probably to act as a major port, Later on people moved in rebuilt and reused, half the work was done already so why not rebuild and reuse, add to that the fact it acts as Brelands major port (im guessing the brellish navy such as it might be is based there, requires minimal costs to be made a skyport (stick some piers onto a tower) and it has the rail, it has the connections it needs, as for trade, why is everyone focusing on the idea of selling weapons and armour and tools to nations, Sell agricultural and domestication equipment to House Valdais and Orien, Weapons to Tharashk and Denieth, assorted metal bits to Sivis, Kundarak and others. help Jorasco and Ghallandra get their hands on strange herbs and plants from Xendrick that might help them in their efforts, Add on trade with Zilargo etc and your in buisness
Just another user 10-07-04, 10:02 AM	One hundred city districts in Sharn the book. San Francisco has about eight; Imperial Rome had twelve, over the span of a few hundred years (and its traffic was so bad the Emperors restricted chariots to night hours only!). All this attention on Sharn is like going to Disneyland for the teacup ride. San Francisco and Rome are/weren't developed horizontaly AND vertically. Sharn is. About the food, for the Dragonshard article. "welcome to Sharn" "Brelish farmers stream down the Old Road bearing the harvest; Sharn has many mouths to feed, and the edge of the Dagger is barren and hard"
Atlictoatl 10-07-04, 11:19 AM	I personally tend to agree with Korhal IV. For my taste, I'd rather have seen the cities of Karrnath fulfill the need for 'dark and gritty' ambience and industry where we have an entire nation to support the premise, and I somewhat question the need for a giant urban metropolis in a fantasy setting. It is certainly convenient, but Sharn is a bit of an anomaly in the world. As a world that we prize for its rational inclusion of standard fantasy elements, that anomaly is mildly disappointing. That said, a perspective seems to be missing in many of the posts here, both those of the original premise and rebuttal. Sharn is, presumably, an ancient city. Whatever the effects of the Last War, they are only 100 years of effects, and pale in comparison to the thousands of years of both Galifar and the Dragonmarked Houses. On the other hand, House Cannith was based in Cyre pre-Mourning, and Breland lacks any other Dragonmarked Houses, so this idea of Breland as the home of industry is confusing. Using the lightning rail to negate Korhan's shipping argument is unsound; the lightning rail being a fairly new invention when compared to the founding of Sharn. Additionally, while I don't have the science to back this up, we've been told it almost always rains in Sharn, and it suffers from tropical heat. I would think that such an environment has a truly negative effect on the longterm sustainability of building supplies, unless the same phenomen that allows for resisting gravity overcomes the negative effects of decomposition. The vehemence on this thread confuses me. Why attack the original poster for his views? For my two cents, I'd have preferred Karrnath was developed as the industrial center of Khorvaire. I like Breland, but not because of Sharn, though I certainly plan on buying the Sharn supplement and trying to accept its existence. Oh, and San Francisco has plenty more districts than eight, Korhan IV. I've personally slept in eleven, and there are many, many more. Edit: mispelled Karrnath
The White Sorcerer 10-07-04, 03:43 PM	...and Breland lacks any other Dragonmarked Houses... Slight correction. House Medani originated in Breland, has its headquarters in Breland, and the current leader of the House, Baron Trelib d'Medani, is a good friend of King Boranel.
Atlictoatl 10-07-04, 05:01 PM	Slight correction. House Medani originated in Breland, has its headquarters in Breland, and the current leader of the House, Baron Trelib d'Medani, is a good friend of King Boranel. Thanks for that! It must be time to re-read the ECSB! :)
Solarious 10-07-04, 07:33 PM	Seems like a very heated discussion going on. Nice ;) I just want to point out that regardless of if Breeland traded with other nations or not, they can all eventually get any weapon or armor they wanted. Remember House Cannith? They don't just make Warforged you know. They have a near-stranglehold on manufactured goods: in fact, many nations dislike this and attempt to make themselves self-reliant, although House Cannith's advantages with the Mark of Making makes this nigh-impossible. Other nations will get weapons regardless, so why not trade anyways? The warfare makes consistant lines of trade impossible, so everyone needs supplies other nations control. I would think that given the opportunity, they would trade as much as possible before the alliance crumbles, because you're never sure if they'll backstab you tomorrow. And yes, they need each other, even if they're trying to annhilate each other while doing so. The natural stupidity factor also comes into play: not everything someone does has to make sense. I mean, all of us know going to the gym and cutting back on sugary/oily/fatty foods is good for us but do we do that? Let the exploding numbers of obesity in America answer that for you.
fizzbang 10-08-04, 03:59 PM	For my taste, I'd rather have seen the cities of Karrnath fulfill the need for 'dark and gritty' ambience and industry where we have an entire nation to support the premise, and I somewhat question the need for a giant urban metropolis in a fantasy setting. It is certainly convenient, but Sharn is a bit of an anomaly in the world. As a world that we prize for its rational inclusion of standard fantasy elements, that anomaly is mildly disappointing. The rest of these comments have already been addressed, but I feel it's important to remember that Eberron isn't just a fantasy setting. It's also a pulp and noir setting, something that Sharn exemplifies in spades. In fact, I suspect it may be one of the reasons gamers either love it or hate it: like the lightning rail, Sharn epitomizes the metropolitan/modern aspect of the system. It's an urban jungle of moral greys and blending cultures that would be more at home in cyberpunk than high fantasy. To some, it kills their belief of the world, just like some say that guns in D&D kills the feel of the setting. To me, and many others on this board, I suspect, it's incredibly invigorating.
Roxlimn 10-11-04, 07:10 AM	Atlictoatl: As I said to Korhal IV and also applicable to your points, we do not know enough about Sharn and Eberron to conclude whether Sharn is an anomaly or not. From what little we know, we can say that there are factors that favor other cities, but there are also a lot of factors in Sharn's favor, not least of which are the lightning rails, rivers, bays, and trade roads. Breland, definitely is the best suited country in the Five Nations in terms of accessibility for trade. We know even less about the Empire of Dhakaan, and from what I know, the Eldeen Reaches and the Mror Holds to the north both hold tribes of orcs and dwarves who were not well disposed to the goblin empire. It's entirely probable that the empire started and eventually based itself in the south portions of Khorvaire, and the location of the current Darguun, if it's of any consequence, supports this presumption. In such a case, Sharn is one the better, if not the best place location for a fairly large goblin metropolis. While using the lightning rail as a basis for the all-time preeminence of Sharn may be misplaced, it certainly it a major factor in its favor for the last hunderd years or so when the rail was in operation, especially for Cyre-Breland, Breland-Aundair, and Breland-Thrane trading, which I suspect were among the major players in the trading powers before and during the war. Breland is better suited than Karrnath as a trading, and perhaps as an industrial power. Karrnath is not a well country, agriculturally speaking, and significant trade to Aundair will have to go through or near Thrane in order to be of any service. This means that in terms of position, militarily, politically, and economically, Karrnath cannot afford to antogonize Thrane for any real length of time or its food supplies would be placed in serious jeopardy, probably more than any undead army could really cover. Breland, in contrast, can play Aundairian and Thrane merchants against each other in direct competition, and Breland can afford to back or ally each of Aundair or Thrane, or even support itself on its own not-inconsiderable agriculture for a while. Rain and heat do not really impact cities like Sharn. Metro Manila, suited within the tropics, assuredly with a healthy amount of rainfall, is one of the largest, if not the largest urban sprawl in the world. Since the environment support building up and convenient and fast transportation in-city, Sharn is easily one of the best places to build a residential city, and one of the best places to make your commercial HQs as well. Industrial might can be attributed to ease of transport of parts, and relatively cheap rent compared to the resources that are accessible. If Sharn really can build up as high as I think it does, you can quite easily compete with other cities in terms of rent and labor cost so as to attract large and productive industries in the bowels of the city while preserving relatively nice residential and commercial further up and central. In fact, "tropical heat" is really quite misleading. It never really gets that hot in tropical countries, it's the humidity that kills most newcomers from so-called temperate countries. The actual temperate is a bit less than some summer heat waves in temperate cityscapes. Temperatures of greater than 100 F are very unusual. There are no summers, there are no winters. It's just mostly temperate weather and temperature most of the time. Once you get used to it, you can literally live in the outdoors with no more than a bare shirt for protection and you probably won't die from exposure, provided you do sensible things like seek the ever present shady areas at noontime and keep out of the wind at night. You won't need lots of water, since the humidity makes you sweat less once your body adjusts, and it doesn't get cold enough in most urban areas to require thick blankets. Of course, this promotes lots more homeless than normal, since they can literally survive on no income and no city support. Singapore and Kuala Lumpur are other examples of cities that are in "tropical heat", yet do just fine, and even benefit from it. The real drawbacks to a tropical climate are pest infestation and plant overgrowth. You can have trees spring on soil just out of nowhere and start cracking up the streets. I like Sharn. OF course, I don't like everything I read about it, but I'll just change those when I need to. fizzbang: I don't know about whether Sharn fits in with cyberpunk more than high fantasy. I'm just not old enough to understand the subtle distinctions. I sometimes play Faerun with a noir-ish feel, especially the Sword Coast and Fallen Stars area. A good deal of Faerun is also very metropolitan, not to mention grey and with blending cultures. Waterdeep is the obvious example, but Marsember and Amn are also good examples. Rail to me is simply not against the theme of high-fantasy. If you really take magic into account in the world, then it must have much the same effects are scientific knowledge does in ours, and even more, it will have many advantages that modern science does not even possess. Khorvaire should really be closer to Tatooine or science fantasy than it is to Victorian or cyberpunk fantasy.
Atlictoatl 10-11-04, 11:50 AM	Roxlimn: Thank you for both your comments and your clarification regarding tropical cities. I stand corrected on the latter issue; happily so. My comment about the age of the Sharnic location serves more to support the idea of Sharn being a great city, as your comments furhter develop. My main point about the age of Sharn is that the discussion of the city's greatness should be concentrated on pre-War history. While a city can certainly grow rapidly during the One Hundred Year War, I get the impression that Sharn was immense before the War started. It's a much older city than the prevalent discussion on this thread considers. Certainly, we'll have to wait for the sourcebook to see just how the War factored into Sharn's prominence. Your points about Brelish industry are good ones, but there are also arguments that can be made for Karrnath. Throughout the War, Karrnath could trade equally well with Cyre and Thrane as Breland. There are some difficulties trading with Aundair (sea is possible, though Aundair lacks a major seaport on current-day maps), but don't forget the major bridge that connected the two states pre-War, which I maintain would have been a real advantage for Karrnathi industry. While Breland has the proximity of Zilargo to aid their claim as the most industrial nation, Karrnath has proximity to the Mror Holds. With the advent of the lightning rail, perhaps the distance of the Mror mineral deposits from Breland is no longer an issue, but certainly pre- lightning rail Karrnath would have had a significant advantage. The industry of the Zil gnomes could perhaps alleviate this somewhat, but the Mror Holds must be considered as a very real factor. Your agricultural point is sound. Still, it bears mention that some of the industrial giants of our own world have suffered from either a lack of accessible arable land or extreme weather conditions -- Germany, Russia, Japan, Poland, etc. There is even something to be said, in our world, for the harsh northern climes being a generative source for an industrial culture versus the more relaxed lifestyles of southern climates. I haven't the geographical/historical knowledge to cite that authoritatively as a dominant cause -- it very well could also be due to a concentration of the resources necessary to be a dominant industrial force, but again I point to the Mror Holds. My preference for Karrnath over Breland as the industrial power is more emotional than rational, however. In the ECSB, Breland manages to overshadow Karrnath. For those of us with a Western cultural bias, Breland somehow captures the flavor of both North America and Western Europe while staying very much in the paradigm of the traditional "Good" fantasy kingdom, rivaled only by Aundair for the hearts of anglophiles. In contrast, Karrnath feels very Austro-Prussian, with their harsh climate and military academies. It has the Twelve, a good University, an interesting history and organizations, is the home of one of the world's major Dragonmarked Houses, and yet I suspect that Karrnath will be relegated to the villainous nation role in the world, the home of maladjusted PCs and NPCs, whilst the bulk of NPCs hail from other regions. While the undead angle is an interesting one for the nation, and adds to its feel, I'm afraid it will place the nation too much on the fringe. Karrnath is almost an occult Germany, like the primary antagonist of the Mike Mignola (Hellboy) comics that some of the artwork of the ECSB emulates. As such, it carries cultural biases in the mind of the ECSB reader, conscious or not. Creating Karrnath as the industrial power may increase that effect, emotionally; I'm not sure. But I do believe it would generate more reasons for adventures to go there. I do like Sharn, myself, but I also question it a bit. I also struggle with only really being able to portray it as a Gotham or Coruscant, which (while exciting and techno-noirish) gives the world a tweak I'm not entirely comfortable with. Hopefully the sourcebook will give me a richer perspective of the city and allow me additional ways of portraying it. And I do feel as though the existence of the city was created intentionally from a metagame design perspective. Obviously, a game will have these, but Sharn sticks out a little for me. It isn't a seamless fit, unlike so many of the other Eberron elements. I'm quite certain this is a matter of opinion, and that other things that feel exactly right to me may not work for others.
Roxlimn 10-12-04, 09:41 PM	Atlictoatl: A most revealing and insightful reply! Thanks for the post, and I'm sure many readers will likewise find your post useful, whether they agree with your opinions or not. I was certainly not completely aware of any cultural bias in terms of what Breland is, viewing it from an anglophilic POV only after I read your comments. In retrospect, I suppose I should be reviewing everything from the US with this sort of bias in order to understand it better. You have to understand, though, that the geographic placement and development of Breland almost certainly assures that it cannot be like either Northern America or Western Europe in outlook because the climate is different and it is a southern power that has little in the way of isolation. In fact, it's one of the most accessible nations on the continent, as well as the largest and best situated. Indeed, it surprises me that it's so big, since I believe that Thrane, Aundair, and Karrnath would easily perceive the advantages of carving large sections of Breland out for themselves, even if acquired in a temporary military alliance against the powerful nation. It's not like there are large insumountable barriers along its boundaries. I imagine the pervading attitude in Breland is not one of immigration as in American culture, nor isolation and recent barbarism as in Western Europe but more of Chinese-Vietnamese-Thai. You have to understand that Breland is an ancient nation. Older than most nations are today. In terms of cultural memory dating to antiquity, it must contain relics and treasures that surpass even the vases of the Ming dynasty or the old records of the Three Kingdoms era. Also, it's has overland connections with many nations and desireable locations and land. In order to preserve its national identity and cultural distinction, it must also be like Vietnam or Korea, each of which has endured countless invasions over the centuries, resisting assimilation even by such a metropolitan and culturally accepting power as China. Finally, its military might, industrial power, and geographic location means that it must have some similarity with ancient Siam, an empire which at one point extended into Cambodia and the surrounding states. Karrnath doesn't feel very Eastern European to me. In fact, it feels equally Eastern and Western European, though that could just be my ignorant Asian ass talking. Great cheeses and wines, ranches all over with fantastic pork and beef, massive cities and populations that overwhelm their food producing capability, these speak to me of French and Iberian influences, if not outright German. To tell you the truth, I don't much appreciate the distinction between Austrian and German tribes and the tribes farther up north and west, other than the more western ones were more interested in intermittent warfare. It would actually make a lot of sense for Karrnath to remain a non-industrial power as I imagine that a too much of that magical waste can affect the quality of luxury goods that Karrnath exports to other nations. With Mror Holds being allied with and in such close proximity to Karrnath, and with Karrnath exporting such fine goods, I suspect that Karrnath, while being industrially weaker, would be one of the more financially powerful of the nations. It might even institute economic and cultural measures in the kingdom to make it remain so, much as Japan has done post WWII. I don't see Breland as good, anymore than I see Karrnath as evil, though that undead army thing is a little off-putting. Gnome mercenaries would have been so much better. This Brelish notion of conquering everybody to "free them from tyranny" smacks too much of abusive imperialist behavior to sit well with me. Nothing good can come of it. At the same time, Karrnath's honest and self-serving efforts to maintain the peace strike me as very noble and something that well-adjusted and good-hearted PCs would very well aim for. Just because a country isn't industrial doesn't mean that nothing happens there. In fact, since the most valuable goods come from Karrnath, I imagine that it has a very wealthy nobility and a longer history of supporting the arts, leading to a very powerful cultural influence across the continent. It's got the most populated cities in the world. There's got to be something there that people want to get near to, right? Even if you can get everything in Sharn, Karrnath cities may be just as big and just as, if not more, interesting. Sharn itself does tend to feel a little artifical, but then again, so does New York and Rio de Janeiro. These cities have no business being as big as they are, and any of a series of vital events in their histories could have changed their course for the worse, too. I feel that the same is true for Sharn. Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate definitely feel a lot more artificial, to say nothing of Greyhawk.
GMSteve 10-12-04, 11:35 PM	Sharn itself does tend to feel a little artifical, but then again, so does New York and Rio de Janeiro. These cities have no business being as big as they are, and any of a series of vital events in their histories could have changed their course for the worse, too. I feel that the same is true for Sharn. Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate definitely feel a lot more artificial, to say nothing of Greyhawk. I can't speak for Rio, but New York definetly has a reason for the size it is. Called the eire canal. It allowed New York to become the largest eastern port and vital for moving goods from the Midwest to the East Coast and Export. After that it just grew in size due to interia. Most large cities are actually like this. That is the troubling thing for Sharm for me. It just seems to darn hard to get stuff in and out of it, for it to be such a large city......The straights are trecherous out of the dagger, and only one road in..? But having said all that..It is a great city and I definetly plan on using it. For the simple fact that I justify its size in say the same reason why OKC or Dallas Fortworth is so large (a millon people in the middle of nowhere? - while not a really big city on world standards - a millon people is nothing to sneeze at) that is just how the population center for Breland grew. Not a great explanation, but then I want to spend my time taking my Tokyo expierences and putting them to good use in designing the city.... ;) I plan on using the really screwy Tokyo address system for Sharn...I think it adds to the flavor.
Roxlimn 10-13-04, 12:36 AM	GMSteve: I can't speak for Rio, but New York definetly has a reason for the size it is. Called the eire canal. It allowed New York to become the largest eastern port and vital for moving goods from the Midwest to the East Coast and Export. After that it just grew in size due to interia. Most large cities are actually like this. Exactly. Without the Eire Canal, New York would never have grown to the size it has and would most probably have remained a relatively medium sized unremarkable city. That one factor is one of the many important factors that came together to make the city what it is. That is the troubling thing for Sharm for me. It just seems to darn hard to get stuff in and out of it, for it to be such a large city......The straights are trecherous out of the dagger, and only one road in..? Two major trade roads, actually, and many minor roads, I can imagine. Dagger River connections into Wroat (the capital of Breland) and Woodhelm make it easily accessible from most of Breland, and what isn't facilitated by river and road travel is facilitated by rail. The real question is why Sharn is more important a point of trade than Wroat is, though I suspect that more direct routes to Trolanport and Zilargo in general is a very important factor. Perhaps the most important factor many people seem to be overlooking is the manifest zone. The manifest zone in Sharn allows you not only so much more real estate to build on and rent out, it also allows you to transport people and goods by air, something that's unheard of in any other city in the whole of Khorvaire. The tourism and cultual factors alone would have made Sharn a wealthy city. I imagine that the prestige of living and owning a high-rise Sharn tower would have made it de rigeur for most Dragonmarked houses to have property in the area, if not major trading presences. Having such a unique and powerful drawing factor going for it naturally, I expect that the reverse of the New York story would be true. New York didn't have anything very special about it. The Eire Canal made it good. Sharn already is good. If an Eire Canal didn't exist for Sharn, Breland would have gone through the trouble to create one just because Sharn is such a great city to house people, make industries, trade with other nations, with the manifest zone and waterways and all. It may even be that some of Cannith's special forges only work in the manifest zones around Sharn.
Just another user 10-13-04, 07:31 AM	GMSteve: Two major trade roads, actually, and many minor roads, I can imagine. Dagger River connections into Wroat (the capital of Breland) and Woodhelm make it easily accessible from most of Breland, and what isn't facilitated by river and road travel is facilitated by rail. The real question is why Sharn is more important a point of trade than Wroat is, though I suspect that more direct routes to Trolanport and Zilargo in general is a very important factor. Another overlooked factor in Sharn's growth is Xen'drik. Sharn is the door to xen'drik and xen'drik is the direct and indirect source of many of the magic innovations in the last century. Elemental binding and warforged were at the least hevily influenced by what was found in the giant's ruins and only the Host know what else could be found, to not mention the riches in dragonshards deposits that just wait to be discovered.
Atlictoatl 10-13-04, 11:40 AM	Roxlimn: You have to understand, though, that the geographic placement and development of Breland almost certainly assures that it cannot be like either Northern America or Western Europe in outlook because the climate is different and it is a southern power that has little in the way of isolation. In fact, it's one of the most accessible nations on the continent, as well as the largest and best situated.Please understand that most citizens of the U.S. are woefully uneducated about the rest of the world. Granted, Breland is situated at the extreme southern end of the continent, but the mere fact that it is "the largest and best situated" makes it, emotionally, like the U.S. to Americans, since in our minds (erroneously, I know) we are the largest and best situated country in the world. You have to understand that Breland is an ancient nation. Older than most nations are today. In terms of cultural memory dating to antiquity, it must contain relics and treasures that surpass even the vases of the Ming dynasty or the old records of the Three Kingdoms era.If the ECSB doesn't hit us over the head repeatedly with it, the bulk of American readers are going to miss these points without careful reading. We can't, generally, conceive of a nation older than a few hundred years, if we can manage even that (in many places other than the NE, things don't seem much older than fifty years, though they are). That's why your typical mainstream American tourist has such a slack jaw when encountering five hundred year old architecture. Karrnath doesn't feel very Eastern European to me. [...] Great cheeses and winesI was under the impression it was Aundair that specialized in these. I don't see Breland as good, anymore than I see Karrnath as evil, though that undead army thing is a little off-putting. Gnome mercenaries would have been so much better. This Brelish notion of conquering everybody to "free them from tyranny" smacks too much of abusive imperialist behavior to sit well with me. Nothing good can come of it. At the same time, Karrnath's honest and self-serving efforts to maintain the peace strike me as very noble and something that well-adjusted and good-hearted PCs would very well aim for.My perspective is simply founded on a first read-through of the book, and is an emotional perspective. From what I've seen on the boards, the average poster (presumably sitting in the U.S.) seems most drawn to Breland and Aundair as the standard, normal nations. While PCs may hail from other locations, I get the feeling those PCs will be fulfilling the desire for the exotic. Breland is the most industrial, has the biggest city (which is NY to any American, ignoring Tokyo and Mexico City, and without any understanding of what Hong Kong and Jakarta feel like, although we might have a TV feel for London and Rio), has the most benevolent leader with imperialistic leanings, the most land, land that is both rich in agriculture and commerce/industry, and its borders are, arguably, filled with external threats. On an emotional first read, your average mainstream U.S. citizen may very well most strongly identify with Breland. Aundair has the temperate valleys and forests, wines and cheeses, superior airs, and polite but scheming leader that signals a mix of Britain and France to the average American (and thus benefits from being the 'next most familiar' to that reader). These are certainly biased generalizations, and may not be true anywhere outside of my own mind. Their relevance to this thread is simply in pointing out that it is interesting Sharn, as the starting location to which Eberron campaigns are moderately pushed, is situated in a nation that has this kind of emotional impact (if said impact truly exists) on the U.S. psyche. Were the starting metropolis located elsewhere, it's possible either that the emotional intensity of Breland for the U.S reader would be less strong, or that it would be mitigated somewhat by another nation having some dominance.
Korhal IV 10-13-04, 12:39 PM	Perhaps the most important factor many people seem to be overlooking is the manifest zone. The manifest zone in Sharn allows you not only so much more real estate to build on and rent out, it also allows you to transport people and goods by air, something that's unheard of in any other city in the whole of Khorvaire. [...] Cannith's special forges only work in the manifest zones around Sharn. Yes, I can so see transporting things by air. As soon as you reach the end of the manifest zone, SPLAT! Where did you find the info about Cannith's special forges only working in Sharn's manifest zones? Doesn't the Lord of Blades have one pocketed away? And Merrix d'Cannith, or whatever his name is? That kinda punctures the theory, unless you've got a page number somewhere. I'd love for Cannith's forges to only work in Sharn. That would lend some modicum of believeability to the city's riches.
Roxlimn 10-13-04, 02:01 PM	Atlictoatl: Perfectly understandable. It is, perhaps, my bad that I'm looking at these things from an Asian perspective when they were so obviously targetted at an American audience. I can see where an American would presume that Breland most closely remsebles the US, when nothing could be further from the truth. As a large solid continent featuring the ruins of empires hundreds of thousands of years old, and kingdoms centuries old, I can't help but think of the ruins of Angkor Wat and the ancient empires of China and Thailand. Zilargo would even fit in as a sort of India, in that no one really wants to conquer it from the outside, and they're mostly opaque to boot. Aundair also features wines and cheeses, but if you read the Karrnath entry, you'll find that the best and most expensive cheeses and wines come from Karrnath, as well as the best meats and poultry. Korhal IV: Yes, I can so see transporting things by air. As soon as you reach the end of the manifest zone, SPLAT! Who said anything about leaving the manifest zone? Transporting stuff from warehouses and ports to the factories where they're used is always a major concern for all industrial cities, especially in cities where road maintainance is a serious issue. If you can't get your raw materials to where you need them, then your factory goes kaput. In less blessed cities, you might solve the massive trucking and transportation problem with in-city rail, lots and lots of carts, or undead labor, all of which tend to be space consuming, and therefore, expensive on many levels. In Sharn, space is not a problem. Not only can you build as high up as all heck, you can also use airspace as roadways. It's a fairly simple but very significant advantage. Where did you find the info about Cannith's special forges only working in Sharn's manifest zones? Doesn't the Lord of Blades have one pocketed away? And Merrix d'Cannith, or whatever his name is? That kinda punctures the theory, unless you've got a page number somewhere. It may even be that some of Cannith's special forges only work in the manifest zones around Sharn. Which part of the phrase "It may even be" are you not familiar with?
Atlictoatl 10-13-04, 05:03 PM	Perfectly understandable. It is, perhaps, my bad that I'm looking at these things from an Asian perspective when they were so obviously targetted at an American audience. I can see where an American would presume that Breland most closely remsebles the US, when nothing could be further from the truth. As a large solid continent featuring the ruins of empires hundreds of thousands of years old, and kingdoms centuries old, I can't help but think of the ruins of Angkor Wat and the ancient empires of China and Thailand. Zilargo would even fit in as a sort of India, in that no one really wants to conquer it from the outside, and they're mostly opaque to boot.Hardly your bad; your perspective is one I'm very glad to see on the boards, as it helps me (and hopefully others) to consider a more developed world view. It's embarrassing, as I have the advantage of being a Tekumel afficionado (which is set in a world based in part on Indian/Indonesian influences). I don't know that its accurate to say that the game was targeted at an American perspective so much as it may contain the prejudices of its authors. I'm also not convinced my evaluation is accurate.