Post/Author/DateTime	Post
davethebrave371 06-19-07, 08:21 PM	As the other two threads on here are either about the previews or one specific issue (respectively), I thought I'd start one for all around impressions. I just cracked the spine on the bus on the way home from my FLGS, so all I've got for impressions are what the other two threads were talking about already. But let's put that aside and get the ball rolling: as far into it as I've gotten (the end of the first chapter), I really like this. I would rank this first chapter, even with the misinformed (although well-intended) take on the Silver Flame, as being the best first chapter of an Eberron book since the ECS. It's fantastic, and full of awesome background and fluff.
Adamaro23 06-20-07, 02:11 AM	I really liked FoW, now I finally know the details of the Last War. But on the downside... I really like fluff, but I also like crunch and i'm dissapointed in this particular area. You'd think there'd be more warforged components at least. So all together I really like the book, but slightly dissapointed by lack of crunch... very slightly. Also i'm not sure what to think of "flashback" campaigns.
Mouseferatu 06-20-07, 02:25 AM	I really liked FoW Thank you. :) You'd think there'd be more warforged components at least. There are, on p. 120. Not a lot--only three or four--but they're there. Also i'm not sure what to think of "flashback" campaigns. I've actually used that techique (albeit not in an Eberron campaign). I was running a campaign that took place 1,000 years after a previous campaign in the same world, and for one session, I had the players play their old PCs. It actually worked pretty well. :)
taski 06-20-07, 04:27 AM	I just got FoW today. I'm really loving the level of detail. Some of the details don't match up with what I'd already imagined for my Eberron, but I knew that would happen. I'll just use whatever I think is cooler. :) By the way, I think a Last War RTS would be kickin' rad... if WotC is out of ideas for D&D computer games.
Amaril 06-20-07, 07:18 AM	By the way, I think a Last War RTS would be kickin' rad... if WotC is out of ideas for D&D computer games. I think the Last War would have made for a better setting in Dragonshards personally.
Archangel62 06-20-07, 07:51 AM	I haven't bought it yet, but I did some looking over, my big problems are more in the following 1) It would have been useful to get the stats on the floating fortresses and other vehicles and siege-level weapons of war, if for no other reason than to give some grounding for how the battles worked. 2) More than one warforged model please, or at least give us more options featwise and with attachments to them. The problem I saw here was more that it promised a lot more on the warforged and I don't feel it entirely delivered. 3) I would have liked more feat and gear options available from the book but that's just me.
Amaril 06-20-07, 08:26 AM	It seems to me that a lot of the crunch individuals are looking for can be found in Heroes of Battle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/860900000). If you don't already have that book, I advise taking a look at it. I would be more upset if they reprinted material that was already covered in such a book. Also, despite being a 3.0 book, Stronghold Builder's Guidebook (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/881660000) is another resource for this type of material. It's often billed as a player's book, but I find it more valuable to DMs who want to utilize some of the wondrous architecture, siege engines, and other equipment used for attacking or defending strongholds.
davethebrave371 06-20-07, 09:39 AM	Very true. I find that this book is all fluff and should be all fluff. The scant few pieces of crunch are more than enough. Of course, this is from a guy who owns both the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook and Heroes of Battle, so I've got all the Last War crunch I need.
Amaril 06-20-07, 09:44 AM	Also note that cityscape had the siege golem which is available for free as an excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061110a&page=5). http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Cityscape_Gallery/101107.jpg
Adamaro23 06-20-07, 08:18 PM	There are, on p. 120. Not a lot--only three or four--but they're there. I knew there was few, but I guess I just thought House Cannith would make more upgrades for them during such a long war, but I guess not :( . And i'm pretty sure i'd absolutely love all of FoW if I had Heroes of Battle, I just kinda upsets me that for a combination of fluff & crunch for The Last War I'll have to spend $60. So since I don't have Heroes of Battle, I won't be getting the crunch :weep: .
Psymnotica 06-20-07, 08:29 PM	Look on Ebay. I just picked up HoB for $10. Psymnotica
FilmGuy77 06-20-07, 08:53 PM	If you are at all interested in a war based campaign, HoB is well worth the investment. It has a lot of great crunch for wondrous siege engines and the like, but more importantly it has excellent advice and strategies for DMing a battlefield campaign. It is one of my favorite splat books (even though I have actually used very little from it given my current campaign is a bit more traditional). Definitely worth it. As far as the topic at hand, I just got my copy today. I have only read the first 15 or so pages on my lunch break, but so far I'm loving it. This has the potential to by my favorite Eberron book since the ECS. I'm so glad to have a solid overview of the events of the Last War. I anticipate my inner history geek will find the need to make some sort of handout / presentation for my players including a timeline and possibly maps. I'm a little sick that way.
gensuke626 06-20-07, 10:05 PM	I haven't read it cover to cover, but then again, I never read books cover to cover. I read the intro, then the crunch, then I skip around reading interesting bits as I please. Sure it gives me an incomplete knowledge of the books 9/10 times, but I get the jist of it and I have time to do other things...(example I plan on skipping time travel campaigns entirely...) On the other hand, I love the idea behind the flashback style campaigns and am planning to use it extensively for one large part of the campaign I'm planning for. Basically the characters are going to find journals and records of certain events that are tied to a location or artifact that they're chasing...and as they read the journals and other records, They'll play the parts of the past characters out. I plan for part of the campaign to be a 10th level dungeon crawl in the journals, with the PCs being level 6, going into the dungeon and finding its traps are in bad disrepair, and that a community of kobolds have taken over the ruins. (Think Prince of Persia; Warrior Within...the dramatic change between the modern ruins and the old traps in their prime)
Adamaro23 06-20-07, 10:41 PM	Thanks gensuke626, i finally understand the way a flashback campaign works :) . I was under the impression that you had your players play their current characters during The Last War assuming they were alive and active during that time...:rolleyes: Because of the way I saw it I thought it would be entirely useless in my Eberron because these are my PCs: 20 year old changling warlock (lived with parents until accepted into Morgrave U) 4 year old warforged monk (made at the end of the war, never got a chance to fight) 15 year old anthropamorphic ferret (lived on streets of town all his life) 67 year old shifter spirit shaman (from tashana tundra in sarlona) So none of my characters participated in the war, so if we did a flashback it would not involve the war... Guess I was wrong...and i'm glad :) Now I definatly plan on a flashback sometime in the campaign :D .
gensuke626 06-20-07, 11:15 PM	Thanks gensuke626, i finally understand the way a flashback campaign works :) . I was under the impression that you had your players play their current characters during The Last War assuming they were alive and active during that time...:rolleyes: Because of the way I saw it I thought it would be entirely useless in my Eberron because these are my PCs: 20 year old changling warlock (lived with parents until accepted into Morgrave U) 4 year old warforged monk (made at the end of the war, never got a chance to fight) 15 year old anthropamorphic ferret (lived on streets of town all his life) 67 year old shifter spirit shaman (from tashana tundra in sarlona) So none of my characters participated in the war, so if we did a flashback it would not involve the war... Guess I was wrong...and i'm glad :) Now I definatly plan on a flashback sometime in the campaign :D . I see...I'm glad I could help in some way. Of course my way is only one variant of the Flashback campaign. The one that I think might be best suited to your campaign would be the Dreams variant. In a nutshell, one or more of your PCs experience dreams that could possibly be memories of a past life or visions granted by some higher being. At first they don't know why they have the dreams, but as the campaign progresses, they should be able to figure out what the dreams mean and why they're having them...
DBlizzard 06-21-07, 12:23 AM	I knew there was few, but I guess I just thought House Cannith would make more upgrades for them during such a long war, but I guess not :( . They were too busy actually working on creating the warforged. Remember, they didn't appear until the last few years of the war. The warforged in and of themselves were an innovation over the Warforged Titans, etc. without true sentience. In fact, I think the number of "upgraded" warforged that appear might be slightly "unrealistic" as it is (in the sense of breaking suspension of disbelief). It seems that every other novel has some sort of "special" warforged. At this rate, in a few years the odd warforged will outnumber the standard warforged.
Archangel62 06-21-07, 03:27 AM	They were too busy actually working on creating the warforged. Remember, they didn't appear until the last few years of the war. The warforged in and of themselves were an innovation over the Warforged Titans, etc. without true sentience. In fact, I think the number of "upgraded" warforged that appear might be slightly "unrealistic" as it is (in the sense of breaking suspension of disbelief). It seems that every other novel has some sort of "special" warforged. At this rate, in a few years the odd warforged will outnumber the standard warforged. True, but most of the 'advanced' warforged are specialized. The raptors were made as aerial units, the chargers are probably the missing link between titans and standard warforged, Kraken warforged are seafaring guards, and the scouts...well the scouts are what happens if you forget to take your warforged out of the sauna. There haven't been any really interesting new warforged on the PC homefront, now I believe the reason is a fear of being outshone but the thing is that I really have yet to see any design for a new warforged that would be even remotely suitable for a PC race.
From_Khyber 06-21-07, 08:32 AM	I am not disappointed at all with my FoW - as I've mentioned in previous threads, it contained everything I hoped for. The chronological overview of the war in the first chapter was very enlightening and extremely interesting. The major amount of fluff in the second chapter was rewarding as well, seeing as how I prefer fluff to crunch. The only thing I missed here was Zilargo and/or the Trust. They have been granted considerably little text, which is one of the only shames of this book. Where the first chapters were truly satisfying, the third was a bit mediocre with the Backgrounds and Scars of War (these few bits were kinda pointless in my eyes, but they were fun enough to read nevertheless), but the magical items were all right, I guess. I haven't really delved into the fourth chapter yet, but it seems to provide helpful guidelines if you are to run a Last War campaign. All in all, I'm really happy with this book, and I think the authors have done a splendid job!
Amaril 06-21-07, 08:38 AM	The only thing I missed here was Zilargo and/or the Trust. They have been granted considerably little text, which is one of the only shames of this book.Considering it was written and annotated by a Zil gnome librarian of Korranberg, I think it's very appropriate. :incog:
Golbez57 06-21-07, 08:43 AM	I knew there was few, but I guess I just thought House Cannith would make more upgrades for them during such a long war, but I guess not :( It can be assumed that the great majority of other warforged components found in other sources WERE created by House Cannith during the Last War, excepting those like the tauric belt (is that what it's called?) that originated on Xen'drik. This book presents just a few more of the wartime inventions.
From_Khyber 06-21-07, 10:30 AM	Considering it was written and annotated by a Zil gnome librarian of Korranberg, I think it's very appropriate. :incog: If this was the case, I'd be inclined to agree with you ;)
Amaril 06-21-07, 10:33 AM	If this was the case, I'd be inclined to agree with you ;) Well, Chapter 1 was. Read the section for Chapter 1 in the Introduction, and you'll see it's attributed to a textbook used in a college of the Library of Korranberg.
From_Khyber 06-21-07, 11:48 AM	Well, Chapter 1 was. Read the section for Chapter 1 in the Introduction, and you'll see it's attributed to a textbook used in a college of the Library of Korranberg. Oh! I totally missed that bit! How nice. Well, in that case, I totally agree with you. However, I'd have liked some info on them in the second chapter then.
Amaril 06-21-07, 12:00 PM	Oh! I totally missed that bit! How nice. Well, in that case, I totally agree with you. However, I'd have liked some info on them in the second chapter then. Personally, I like that there isn't any info, this way a DM can plot any machinations of involvement he desires rather than become restricted by canon. It's sort of like the cause of the Mourning in my opinion.
davethebrave371 06-21-07, 07:33 PM	Personally, I like that there isn't any info, this way a DM can plot any machinations of involvement he desires rather than become restricted by canon. It's sort of like the cause of the Mourning in my opinion. It's better left to a "____ Nations" book that covers Zilargo anyway.
From_Khyber 06-21-07, 08:31 PM	Personally, I like that there isn't any info, this way a DM can plot any machinations of involvement he desires rather than become restricted by canon. It's sort of like the cause of the Mourning in my opinion. I can follow you to a certain extent, but then I must remind you that the Mourning and Zilargo are two completely different things. Where the Mourning/Mournland was partly created as a playground for DMs (a place where they aren't restricted by canon at least), Zilargo is a nation that actually proved to be very influential during the war. I can't see why we should be kept in the dark about Zilargo and its inhabitants.
Amaril 06-21-07, 08:50 PM	I was referring more to the Trust. After all Zilargo helped to provide elemental bindings and chronicle the war.
Edymnion 06-21-07, 09:07 PM	Overall, a very nice book. But whenever it starts talking about the Silver Flame, its time to just skip ahead until it stops. Honestly, there was not one thing in the entire book about the Silver Flame that I would consider putting in my game. Every time it said anything about them, it outright contradicted everything else written about the flame to date. Forced conversions, glorified witch trials, racial superiority, armies that are little more than mobs... In my games, everything FoW says about the Silver Flame is getting the same treatment as the sidebars in PGtE.
davethebrave371 06-21-07, 09:13 PM	Overall, a very nice book. But whenever it starts talking about the Silver Flame, its time to just skip ahead until it stops. Honestly, there was not one thing in the entire book about the Silver Flame that I would consider putting in my game. Every time it said anything about them, it outright contradicted everything else written about the flame to date. Forced conversions, glorified witch trials, racial superiority, armies that are little more than mobs... In my games, everything FoW says about the Silver Flame is getting the same treatment as the sidebars in PGtE. Yeah, same. I'm adapting to an extent (isolated incidents that made them look bad and were exaggerated), but it's to a tiny extent.
Edymnion 06-21-07, 10:07 PM	I mean, one of my first PCs in Eberron was Crucible, the WF Paladin of the Silver Flame, and honestly, thats the way I see the Flame. A strong force of good in the world that is there to burn away evil. Sure, sometimes that means the good might get a little cinged (like the 'thropic purge), but all in all the Silver Flame is just as good and noble as it would have people believe. So, needless to say, I found pretty much every reference to the SF in FoW to be wrong, if not outright offensive. Well, I can't really say offensive, because I didn't take offense at anything in there, since its just a book. So I guess I should put that in perspective of "If I were a character in Eberron, and a member of the silver flame, I would be offended by what I read in that so called history book".
davethebrave371 06-21-07, 10:31 PM	The Silver Flame has always been a source of derision by the PCs in my group (not my players, mind you) as in almost two years of this campaign, they have yet (even with character deaths and the like) to play a character who is a) from Thrane or b) a follower of the Flame. Either the character is atheist or agnostic, or they follow the Host. Also, no one has played a cleric or paladin yet...actually, come to think of it, divine magic has been fairly non-existent in my game. We had a druid for a bit, but his player had to leave, and when he came back he wanted to play something new. But I digress. My point is, whenever they encounter one of the faithful, they don't even know it. They operate out of Sharn, so there's plenty of Flame faithful (as well as plenty of everything else), and they've encountered NPCs before that I had made as members of the CotSF, but it just...never comes up organically in conversation, and none of them are zealots or enthusiastic "Flame's Witnesses" or anything.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 12:41 AM	I mean, one of my first PCs in Eberron was Crucible, the WF Paladin of the Silver Flame, and honestly, thats the way I see the Flame. A strong force of good in the world that is there to burn away evil. Sure, sometimes that means the good might get a little cinged (like the 'thropic purge), but all in all the Silver Flame is just as good and noble as it would have people believe. So, needless to say, I found pretty much every reference to the SF in FoW to be wrong, if not outright offensive. Well, I can't really say offensive, because I didn't take offense at anything in there, since its just a book. So I guess I should put that in perspective of "If I were a character in Eberron, and a member of the silver flame, I would be offended by what I read in that so called history book". Well, keep in mind that in-character it *is* a textbook written by a Zil historian. And the Zil might have a reputation for objectivity but -- hey, everyone was on one side or the other at one time during the Last War, and the Gnomes of Zilargo are *exactly* the kind of people who would take a dim view of religious zealots and distrust Silver Flame intentions. It's not like the author of FoW would be unique among historians who have an axe to grind against one particular nation or culture and end up doing a hatchet job on them in what is otherwise a fairly objective and useful book. (I'd be surprised if, in real life, we were able to find any history textbook written less than 10 years after World War II that didn't grossly distort something somebody did during the war to make them look bad.) I have to see the book myself to see how bad I find it, but in a book like this I don't actually mind these kinds of "biased" references, just like I don't mind that Faiths of Eberron betrays certain of its writer's points of ignorance and bias about things like the Blood of Vol.
Syltorian 06-22-07, 07:57 AM	In my games, everything FoW says about the Silver Flame is getting the same treatment as the sidebars in PGtE. I'll go even a bit further, and just ignore everything it says about Thrane. Or at least, rewrite it heavily. Hellcow did a great job explaining that the atrocities were caused by Puritans from elsewhere flowing into Thrane. Somebody else mentioned that Keeper Serrain might not have been chosen by the Flame. Both of these elements will be taken over in my campaign. Given that I have so far heard of Thrane's armies as being second only to Karrnath in discipline and training, and their archery as certainly not being 'poor', as the book claims (they train with it on a regular basis because it's part of their religion!), I'll also have to change some of the battle descriptions. The book also seems to give Karrnath supremacy in heavy cavalry, which is, as far as I knew so far, due to Thrane. I'll probably explain Thrane routs as the times when enemies broke through to the archers, who would not stand up well to melée. Do people think that would be a reasonable explanation for those events in the book where Thrane's supposedly undisciplined rabble is routed? I don't really care whether or not the first chapter is an actual, in-game history book or not. An account we, the players and DMs as opposed to the characters are getting, shouldn't be biased. Of course, the good thing about it is that it makes it easier to change things, blaming what one doesn't like on Zil propaganda. Now apart from the treatment of Thrane, the book is great. It is, for the most part, well researched. For example, it mentions elements from Dragon Magazine (the Dreadhold prisoner Briar), and seems, mostly, to take great care to follow previous supplements. There is again one exception: the first chapter ends up with a Thrane-Brelish alliance before the Mourning, whereas Five Nations has Cyran troops coming to the rescue of Thrane at the same time. That's however the other discrepancy, apart from those discusses about Thrane proper, that I could discover in the book. It even solves some of the problems from previous books, such as the differing dates of the destruction of the White Arch Bridge. The first chapter provides many colourful descriptions of events that make not only an interesting read, but can also be used in a campaign set after Thronehold. I will eventually have to include the floating forteress of Veldarren, stuck in Margul Pass, for my campaign. Next to locations, I also enjoyed its description of the various monarchs. Queen Dannel and King Wrogar in particular, I liked very much. Chapter Two has some great NPCs, too like Urik Rowan (p.50) or Shaldra Antarielle (p.52). It's a pitty they didn't introduce any NPCs for Karrnath or Thrane, though. The second chapter itself has some great information, going into detail about the armed forces and tactics of most of the participants. I miss a general tactics subheading for the Eldeen Reaches and the halflings of the Talenta Plains, but they are there for the Five Nations, Valenar, Darguun, Droaam, the Mror Holds. For the Eldeen and Talenta, there are still entries, and the first chapter shows some interesting insights into them. Thus the Eldeen's use of centaurs, and the halfling's views of honour (especially the actions of the Thunder Riders in 942). I also like the maps of Thaliost and Thronehold. I haven't done much but browsing beyond the second chapter. Chapter Three seems okay, and the battle scars have some interesting roleplaying suggestions. Some of the spells are quite interesting, though not overwhelmingly so. I like the special shield ability, and that there are some heraldic crests added to those in Heroes of War, even if none caught my eye for my current character. The War Regalia of Galifar are great too, even if in my campaign there will be no copies of them. Gathering them should be a great event for all of Khorvaire, and get the PCs involved with all kinds of political trouble. Overall, the crunch part of the book is below average, but it doesn't matter. The fluff more than makes up for it, and as has been mentioned, there is Heroes of Battle to make up for it. I haven't read the Campaign chapter yet, so I cannot comment; the first chapter has some interesting side bars for plot hooks, however.
Edymnion 06-22-07, 04:30 PM	I'll go even a bit further, and just ignore everything it says about Thrane.Well, as a matter of course, FoW doesn't really differentiate between the two, so ignoring everything it says about the Silver Flame pretty much by default means ignoring everything it says about Thrane. Honestly, Mousferatu (I think thats who wrote this one) has been around long enough to know better, I'm actually pretty surprised that they dropped the ball like this.
Mouseferatu 06-22-07, 04:46 PM	Honestly, Mousferatu (I think thats who wrote this one) has been around long enough to know better, I'm actually pretty surprised that they dropped the ball like this. To quote Samuel Jackson from The Long Kiss Goodnight, "And when you make an assumption, you make an ass out of 'u,' and 'umption.'" ;) Or, to put it another way, for good or for ill, I wrote neither any of Chapter One, nor the "Armies of Thrane" entry in Chapter Two.
Syltorian 06-22-07, 05:53 PM	Well, as a matter of course, FoW doesn't really differentiate between the two, so ignoring everything it says about the Silver Flame pretty much by default means ignoring everything it says about Thrane. True, though the part about their armies being undisciplined rabble is usually not associated with their zealous fanaticism. But yes, you are essentially right. There is not too much difference between them in FoW. Honestly, Mousferatu (I think thats who wrote this one) has been around long enough to know better, I'm actually pretty surprised that they dropped the ball like this. IIRC, Mouseferatu wrote the Silver Flame chapter in Faiths of Eberron, which, while it admits for a minority of overzealous and corrupt members, does make a very good job stressing how decent the majority of the followers of the Flame are.
Edymnion 06-22-07, 07:04 PM	Or, to put it another way, for good or for ill, I wrote neither any of Chapter One, nor the "Armies of Thrane" entry in Chapter Two.IIRC, Mouseferatu wrote the Silver Flame chapter in Faiths of Eberron, which, while it admits for a minority of overzealous and corrupt members, does make a very good job stressing how decent the majority of the followers of the Flame are.Ah, my apologies then, I thought I read that they wrote that portion, and I was just going "Wait, Mouse knows better than that..." Heh, do we know who did write that part, so we can "give credit where credit is due"?
davethebrave371 06-22-07, 07:31 PM	Ah, my apologies then, I thought I read that they wrote that portion, and I was just going "Wait, Mouse knows better than that..." Heh, do we know who did write that part, so we can "give credit where credit is due"? It was Wolfgang, I believe. It's a shame, because I am a huge fan of his Planescape work. I'd like to know what else he did, because it seems like aside from the Thrane/SF stuff, the book is solid, so I'd like to be able to see where praise is due for Mr. Baur.
gensuke626 06-22-07, 07:44 PM	If I remember correctly, I heard that Wolfgang Baur does heavy work for the Protectorate of Menoth in the Iron Kingdoms setting...which explains alot considering what the Menites are like in Warmachine...