Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Dreaming Duck 06-16-07, 01:11 AM	I picked up Forge of War today. Overall it looks like a great book. But everyone has their pet peeves. Edymnion tapes over the sidebars in Player's Guide to Eberron. Well, I've already found my section that will never see the light of day in any campaign I run, and it's on pages 17-18 of Forge of War... (Following the death of King Thalin, the people demand the Keeper assume control.) As militant sects and orders sprang up, each strove to outdo its competitors. By 915, almost any stripe of radicalism and zealotry was accepted as normal. Calling a neighbor "impious" could lead to that person's death sentence. The Pure Land movement murdered foreigners in the street... not all the cults of what came to be called the Righteous Kingdom were violent, but the more extreme militias, whether sincere or charlatans, were the ones who exerted the greatest influence. It goes on. We spread the "cleansing fire" across the land. War is justified because the other nations are faithless. and so on. Needless to say, I absolutely hate this. It's like casting the Karrns as undead-loving Nazis - the easy stereotype that completely ignores the complexity that's been created in the setting. Once again, the Silver Flame is being turned into a straw version of the worst elements in Christianity. Consider: The Lycanthropic Purge was set up from the very begining as a horrorshow laid at the door of the church. But it was carefully designed to be a morally grey and complex situation. It's a public health risk. Just watch 28 Weeks Later. There's an unnatural disease that is turning people into homicidal killers. Is it really so surprising that someone took action? This wasn't an inquisition against people who just had the wrong opinion. This wasn't a death sentence for mere impiety. This was a war against shapeshifting killers. It may be easy to cast it as witch trials, but the only way that analogy is valid is if there actually was a plague of deadly witchcraft, and if the witches actually did have the ability to hide in the populace. Let's look at previous sources. By the ECS, the templars are "trained to meet evil head-on with sword, mace, and spell." But the ministers simply "provide spiritual guidance... battling evil by nuturing good." The overzealous Puritans are a "small portion" of the modern church. "Most" missionaries preach a "tolerant version of the faith". The church wages war against supernatural evil. It's right there on page 230 of the ECS. It comes up again in the Silver Flame dragonshard: Human Evil: The goal of the Church is to cleanse the world of evil. In the minds of most outsiders, this conjures up images of templars and exorcists fighting with sword and spell. But the vast majority of the members of the Church are not warriors. More people are in the ministry and the Order of Friars than in the Order of Templars, and they seek to battle evil by nurturing good. A Thrane farmer who is faithful to the Flame does not fight demons. But he seeks to live his life by the ideals of the Church: to help those in need, to encourage virtuous behavior, and to be a force of light in the world. Gradations of evil exist, and while no mercy can be granted to the demon, hope remains that the greedy merchant or the arrogant king may follow a different path if shown how. The minister -- and the paladin -- leads by example and demonstrates to others the errors of their ways. Ah, but that's just a Dragonshard. It's not in print. That's just Keith Baker trying to squeeze in his opinion. Oh, but how about, say, Five Nations, a book he didn't even work on? The overwhelming majority of Thranes are honest, proud, and passionate people who believe in the church of the Silver Flame. Equally devoted to family and work, they do nothing halfway... That said, few Thranes are mindless zealots. Most followers of the Flame tolerate other belief systems... The Silver Flame demands only that it's followers fight evil, whether it's evil incarnate - fiends, undead, or other abominations - or the evil that plagues the human soul. If a paladin of the Silver Flame senses evil in an innkeeper, he should try to find a way to bring that soul back to the light, not strike the innkeeper down or destroy his business. The key here? "bring that soul back to the light." This isn't simply an altruistic goal: it's selfish. The Silver Flame is a force that holds evil at bay. It empowers the champions in world, but also imprisons the rajahs. When virtuous people die, their souls strengthen the Flame. Ergo, when you lead someone back to the light, you are strengthening the Flame, supporting your champions, and protecting the entire world from the rajahs. When you just kill them because they disagree with you, you are accomplishing absolutely nothing. So let's go back to the quote from Forge of War, "calling a neighbor 'impious' could lead to that person's death sentence." By killing someone, you are stealing a soul from the Flame. By the principles of the faith, you have just failed. In the Church of the Silver Flame, impiety IS addressing human evil with violence. The principles of the church are clear. Sword and spell are for fiends and monsters; the proper path for human evil is guidance. This is echoed in Faiths of Eberron: Though the cliche of the Purified shows no mercy to evildoers, most real followers of the Flame seek to save these people, not destroy them. Human evil should be fought with compassion, diplomacy, and leading by example. Whenever possible, people should be shown the error of their ways and have a chance to correct their behavior. If this is not possible, the sword might be the only answer; it should never be the first choice, however. Yet here in FoW we see exactly that cliche, and worse. We aren't even fighting evil: we're fostering paranoia and killing people who are clearly completely innocent. Beyond this we have the fact that this "Pure Kingdom" has never been mentioned before, and that it's a thousand times worse than the Lycanthropic Plague. Murdering neighbors and lynching foreigners in the streets? How exactly did Five Nations miss something like this? And how did we so quickly come from this horror to a modern land in which most people are honest, devoted to family, tolerant of other religions, and where "few people are mindless zealots"? The Lycanthropic Purge is a complex and morally grey situation that shows the struggle the church faces and how it is possible to do evil when you try to do good. It's a witch trial where there are real witches - how many innocents get killed in the process of eliminating a true and deadly threat? The Convulsions of the Flame is a simple hatchet job. There's no ambiguity here. It's every horror of organized religion and mindless zealotry thrown into the open and, of course, laid on the Silver Flame, because heaven forbid we, say, look at corruption among the followers of the Sovereign Host for a change. James Wyatt worked on the ECS. Ari Marmell worked on the Silver Flame chapter of Faiths of Eberron, as quoted above. I can only assume that this piece was written by Wolfgang Baur, who while he may be an excellent writer, has never written anything for Eberron in the past. I know from experience that people WANT to paint the Church in back and white, and want it to be mindless zealots carrying out brutal inquisitions. But the setting deserves more than that. The faith was designed to be more complex, not just to mirror our own fears of organized religion. Keith Baker chose not to make it a transparent, completely good faith as it might have been in another setting - the paladin church that can do no wrong. From the begining it embodied that concept that even when you try to do good, you CAN do evil. But this section is a two-dimensional horror and I'm never using it in my game. Much of the other material about Thrane in this book is fine, even good; I love the mystery of the Messengers, whole clearly have their own agenda instead of just being "angels are good so they fight for the church" cardboard cutouts. But these two pages get the duct tape. To look to the other side for a moment, I'll also note that many of the sources I've quoted say that the righteous path is a hard one to follow(and remember, you don't have to be a Thrane to follow the Church of the Silver Flame - this history doesn't discuss the role of the Flame in other countries that much). As I said, the fact that the Church ISN'T perfect is what makes it good. But this doesn't even have grounding in the core material. Death sentences for impiety and lynching foreigners simply makes no sense for the faith. The Lycanthropic Purge is a disruption that is COMPLETELY grounded in the foundation of the faith - the war against supernatural evil. Death sentences for impiety goes directly against the core principles of the faith. It's simply a stereotyped image drawn from religious zealots in our world that doesn't actually account for the nature of this religion. I'd see this as being far more likely to occur among, say, zealous followers of Aureon, who might lynch people who break the law. Redeeming souls has no place in the faith of the Sovereigns, while it's vital to the Silver Flame. So a follower of the Sovereigns has no reason NOT to lynch you for impiety... while a follower of the Silver Flame has a clear, selfish reason for trying to save your soul. Essentially, the Convulsions of the Flame appears to be the work of someone who has looked solely at a one paragraph description of the faith and jumped to the worst conclusions and easy stereotype, without looking at the deeper elements of the church and the moral ambuiguity that was carefully designed from the start.
Shady314 06-16-07, 01:23 AM	Oh Wolfgang. First the clockwork articles now this.... :nonono:
Nived 06-16-07, 01:28 AM	... well I'm going to call that Brelish propaganda, and hope it doesn't come up in too many future discussions...
Volaran 06-16-07, 03:09 AM	The description of this movement certainly makes Thrane seem very much like the Protectorate of Menoth in the Iron Kingdoms, which Mr Baur has certainly written for. I would expect hatred of foreigners and more extreme policies during periods of the last War, just given the length of time, but it doesn't seem to be characteristic to the way the Silver Flame and Thrane have been portrayed thus far.
Mouseferatu 06-16-07, 03:25 AM	I would expect hatred of foreigners and more extreme policies during periods of the last War, just given the length of time, but it doesn't seem to be characteristic to the way the Silver Flame and Thrane have been portrayed thus far. Exactly. In Wolfgang's defense, while this may not fit the character of the Church throughout history, people--and institutions--do tend to become a lot more brutal, insular, and even xenophobic in war.
Volaran 06-16-07, 03:35 AM	Cool. Thanks for popping by Mouseferatu. Is there any chance you'll be sticking around and answering questions, as you did with Faiths of Eberron? I don't have my copy of Forge of War yet, but I'd be interested to know what sections you worked on.
Mouseferatu 06-16-07, 03:39 AM	Cool. Thanks for popping by Mouseferatu. Is there any chance you'll be sticking around and answering questions, as you did with Faiths of Eberron? I don't have my copy of Forge of War yet, but I'd be interested to know what sections you worked on. Well, I'm not sure how much time I'll have available to devote to it, but I'll try to pop in every now and again over the next few days, and I'll answer what I can. :)
Mouseferatu 06-16-07, 03:45 AM	As for which sections I worked on... I did a bunch of the "encyclopedia" entries in Chapter Two: A Guide to the Last War; many of the backgrounds and scars in Chapter Three; maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the spells and magic items; and most of the Last War Campaign chapter.
Hellcow 06-16-07, 03:57 AM	Exactly. In Wolfgang's defense, while this may not fit the character of the Church throughout history, people--and institutions--do tend to become a lot more brutal, insular, and even xenophobic in war. Hey Ari! Great job on the book. I see your point here, but I agree with the opinion that the Convulsions of the Flame is over the top. An increased level of xenophobia is one thing. But that's not what I see when I look at the section... furthermore, I'd expect such xenophobia to grow over the course of the war, whereas what we have here is astonishing acts of violence against foreigners less than 20 years after the begining of the war, somehow mellowing into the moderate society we see in the present day. But what I see here isn't even xenophobia; it's holier-than-thou violence perpetrated by Thranes against Thranes, throwing in mobs that lynch foreigners for good measure, not because of their political motivations, but because it's supposedly justified by their belief in the Silver Flame. Dreaming Duck described things very well with the witch trial analogy. Yes, the lycanthropic purge was an inquisition: but it was an inquisition against a serious, real threat that was and is directly tied to the core mission of the church. Killing commoners because of an accusation of impiety is absolutely opposed to the core mission of the Church, doubly so if it's unjustified (which is certainly what this sounds like) and in my opinion, if this occured it would be a dark blot on the Church's history that should FAR overshadow the Purge. Innocents died in the Purge, but far fewer than would have died if no action was taken. The events described here have no redeeming aspect; it is the massacre of innocents, plain and simple, supposedly in the name of a faith that considers violence against truly evil humans to be a last and unfortunate resort. Again, I know what *I* had in mind when I wrote the ECS, the Silver Flame and Purge dragonshards, and so on. However, you wrote the Silver Flame section of Faiths of Eberron, and while we may quibble on small details, it seems to me we're largely on the same page. Do you really feel that the execution of Thranish commoners - not even foreigners - on the basis of accusations of impiety is justified? How does this serve the Silver Flame? As the OP says, I certainly wouldn't judge the book on this one incident. So far, I've enjoyed it a great deal and I congratulate all of the authors on a job well done. But I do agree with the Dreaming Duck on this one point. To me, this feels more like someone embracing the unfortunate stereotype that has grown around the Silver Flame - "They're the fanatical inquisition guys" - than the result of someone carefully weighing the material about the Silver Flame that has gone before and deciding that this period would throw it out the window. Five Nations says nothing about the transition of power being so bloody - and in my opinion, the persecution and execution of innocent humans would leave a far greater mark on history that the elimination of the lycanthropes. If it was (or is, as I may have missed it) somewhere acknowledged that the people came to their senses and had a massive change of heart - that their horror at their actions is what led to a shift in society producing the "honest, family-loving, not-mindless-zealot" society described in other sources, that would go a long way to addressing my concerns. But I see far too many people willing to dwell on the corruption of the Silver Flame and never looking at the good within it. Eberron is about shades of grey - but you need to acknowledge the bright side to get that. And the OP is correct - the Silver Flame has no license on corruption, and yes, unlike followers of the Silver Flame worshippers of Aureon or Dol Arrah don't have a religious creed that empasizes mercy even for the evil. Honestly, we should be hearing a lot more about ruthless crusaders coming from Dol Arrah's camp; essentially, she's the Silver Flame without the "save the souls to join the Flame" component. It came up before that Dol Arrah is the goddess of honorable war, but she is a goddess of WAR - whereas the Silver Flame, at its heart, is about defending the innocent - even if it often does this by taking the fight to the enemy.
Mouseferatu 06-16-07, 04:05 AM	Heya, Keith. :) Again, I know what *I* had in mind when I wrote the ECS, the Silver Flame and Purge dragonshards, and so on. However, you wrote the Silver Flame section of Faiths of Eberron, and while we may quibble on small details, it seems to me we're largely on the same page. Do you really feel that the execution of Thranish commoners - not even foreigners - on the basis of accusations of impiety is justified? How does this serve the Silver Flame? Honestly, I haven't had the chance to read that section in detail. (I just got my author's copies yesterday.) My comment above was meant as a general reaction, based solely on what I've read in this thread, and I should have made that fact clear. If it's as extreme as you say, then yes, it does seem to run counter to what's been written previously about the Silver Flame. I can certainly see a few specific communities getting so out of control that they would imprison or execute people based on accuasion without proof. (I will refrain from including any modern political commentary here. ;)) But those would be isolated locations/incidents, not the policies of the government or Church as a whole. All that said, I'd dearly love to hear Wolfgang's thoughts on the subject, and why he wrote it as he did. And even if it turns out to have been in error, the quality of the chapter as a whole--based on my preliminary skim, and what I recall seeing during the writing process--has certainly earned him more than enough leeway. ;) As the OP says, I certainly wouldn't judge the book on this one incident. So far, I've enjoyed it a great deal and I congratulate all of the authors on a job well done. Thanks. :) I think this is my favorite of all the Eberron books I've worked on to date (and one of my favorites of all the D&D books I've done for WotC, for that matter).
The Dreaming Duck 06-16-07, 04:05 AM	While this may not fit the character of the Church throughout history, people--and institutions--do tend to become a lot more brutal, insular, and even xenophobic in war. But it not only doesn't fit the depiction of the church throughout history, it doesn't fit the depiction of the Church TODAY, and the war's only been over for two years. Beyond that, what bothers me isn't violence in the name of the nation, it's that the violence is being justified by the faith, and it's a terrible faith for justifying the execution of impious villagers. As I said, I'd be all for a Sovereign sect following this path and saying "They've been corrupted by the Dark Six! Kill them!" but the Silver Flame is all about compassion and redemption, drawing souls back to the light and killing only when the damage being done is too great. But, of course, here I am arguing with a guy who worked on Faiths of Eberron. Do you see a death sentence for an accusation of impiety as fitting with your vision of the Silver Flame? On the other side of things, I wouldn't mind this as much if the Sovereign Host took have as much crap. But it's always the Silver Flame that gets targeted with this sort of religious intolerance, when it's a religion that specifically emphasizes tolerance... as opposed to, for example, the Sovereign Host, which has a history of "That god you're worshipping? You're wrong. You're worshipping OUR god." If we saw more jerks on the SH side, perhaps I'd get over the constant slamming of the SF.
Mouseferatu 06-16-07, 04:11 AM	Hey, Duck. Our posts crossed in the mail. ;) Check out my response to Keith, above yours.
Shady314 06-16-07, 04:12 AM	If we saw more jerks on the SH side, perhaps I'd get over the constant slamming of the SF. It does get very old. And the Purge was bad enough at getting people that have to post arguing the SF is actually an evil religion bent on world domination. With this canon sourcebook the floodgates have been opened. What about us poor forum goers that have to deal with this stuff. Did Wolfgang think about us? :nonono: Hey Hellcow since you're around this is hopefully a quick question. Could a monstrous sentient creature like an ogre or a minotaur etc. be or become a legal citizen of the 5 Nations and be protected by the Code of Galifar? If not do they enjoy any legal rights under it?
The Dreaming Duck 06-16-07, 04:12 AM	Honestly, we should be hearing a lot more about ruthless crusaders coming from Dol Arrah's camp; essentially, she's the Silver Flame without the "save the souls to join the Flame" component. Exactly. And even if it turns out to have been in error, the quality of the chapter as a whole--based on my preliminary skim, and what I recall seeing during the writing process--has certainly earned him more than enough leeway. The quality of the chapter as a whole is excellent. I'm not debating that. That doesn't change the fact that I'm going to pretend that these two pages of it don't exist. I'll love every bit of the rest of it and use it all over the place. But just because someone does good work most of the time doesn't mean that I'm going to accept something that I feel runs counter to everything that's gone before it. If this is Wolfgang's work, he DOES have the excellent excuse of not having a lot of prior experience with Eberron. My point is that this doesn't seem to taking into account the Dragonshards, Five Nations, or even FoE - that it's playing to the classic stereotype of intolerence that's built up around the church, despite the fact that by canon sources it's a minority of a faith that is actually built around compassion. I certainly understand if a new (in terms of Eberron) author hasn't read every Dragonshard or even every book. So I'm not blaming him for going with the popular flow. I'm just saying that I prefer the more complex picture that's built up in the prior work, and I'll hold to that. But once you set these two pages aside? Everything else is great.
Mouseferatu 06-16-07, 04:16 AM	But just because someone does good work most of the time doesn't mean that I'm going to accept something that I feel runs counter to everything that's gone before it. Nor should you. :) As I said above, that section does contradict previous material on the Flame, written by myself, by Keith, and by others. I might very well choose not to use it myself. (Or more likely, as I suggested above, I'll use it, but I'll restrict it to a few specific communities, or perhaps an extreme splinter faction of the Church.) But as I both like and respect Wolf, I'd love to hear his reasoning. Who knows, he might've had something in mind that I haven't thought of. :)
Nived 06-16-07, 04:27 AM	It's Brelish propaganda I tell you! I haven't read it, but if its everything the Duck, The Cow, and The Mouse seem to say it is (side note can anyone read that sentance and not smile?). Well, sure I'll say it happened. In a smaller scale by some already on the edge fanatics. Not the country as a whole, and those fanatics were held accountable for what they did. Outside of Thrane however, word of these events spread, and grew, and turned into a tale of gennocide.
The Dreaming Duck 06-16-07, 04:30 AM	Or more likely, as I suggested above, I'll use it, but I'll restrict it to a few specific communities, or perhaps an extreme splinter faction of the Church. Sure. I might do the same. If one said "in this period, some were even driving to terrible excesses far beyond the creed of the church, executing those even accused of impiety" - that's an entirely different story. Eberron is full of extremist groups acting against the true values of their faith, as is our own world. Given the chaos of the time, I think it would be ENTIRELY appropriate to have splinter sects that the core church simply doesn't have time to deal with... and these sects survive today among the puritans. All I'm saying it that as presented it comes across as the majority tone of the faith, with people getting more influence the more extreme they're willing to go... which would still be fine with me if the extreme behavior was aligned with the core values of the faith. But yes. As a fanatical fringe movement whose actions are condemned by the common honest family-loving follower of the Flame? No issues whatsoever. Though I'd still like to see more brutal crusaders of Dol Arrah or followers of Aureon enforcing the "God's Laws"!
Hellcow 06-16-07, 04:35 AM	Hey Hellcow since you're around this is hopefully a quick question. Could a monstrous sentient creature like an ogre or a minotaur etc. be or become a legal citizen of the 5 Nations and be protected by the Code of Galifar? If not do they enjoy any legal rights under it? Quick answer? Ask Flamewind. Actually, it's not as simple a question as you might think (especially when you add in that additional question of "where can they go and how are they treated"), and I'm going to want to check some precedents before I respond. Given that it's a good question and entirely offtopic here, I'll try to post an answer on Bossy the Cow (http://www.bossythecow.com/) over the weekend. Short form, though - if you're a minotaur or ogre, get a work visa with House Tharashk.
Mouseferatu 06-16-07, 04:35 AM	the Duck, The Cow, and The Mouse... ...walk into a bar. :D
Shady314 06-16-07, 04:50 AM	Quick answer? Ask Flamewind. Actually, it's not as simple a question as you might think (especially when you add in that additional question of "where can they go and how are they treated"), and I'm going to want to check some precedents before I respond. Given that it's a good question and entirely offtopic here, I'll try to post an answer on Bossy the Cow (http://www.bossythecow.com/) over the weekend. Short form, though - if you're a minotaur or ogre, get a work visa with House Tharashk. Flamewind is part of the reason I asked! That and the Code of Galifar topic here in Eberron General. I feared it might be a complicated question. Any answers you can give anywhere, anytime would be appreciated though. I'll keep an eye on the site. Thanks.
Syltorian 06-16-07, 07:35 AM	(Following the death of King Thalin, the people demand the Keeper assume control.) As militant sects and orders sprang up, each strove to outdo its competitors. By 915, almost any stripe of radicalism and zealotry was accepted as normal. Calling a neighbor "impious" could lead to that person's death sentence. The Pure Land movement murdered foreigners in the street... not all the cults of what came to be called the Righteous Kingdom were violent, but the more extreme militias, whether sincere or charlatans, were the ones who exerted the greatest influence. Ouch. Well, given all the posts above, there is not much I can add to this. The claims could perhaps be justified, were it not for the sentence that such 'radicalism and zealotry were accepted as normal. If we had small groups going over the top here, that I could understand. The Keeper could have clamped down on them as soon as the succession problems were over. The Pure Land movement could be an utterly illegal, but small organisation, an even more fanatical part of the Silver Torch. But that's unfortunately not what this seems to say. Like Ari says, it might work for some few communities. I use a similar situation in Thaliost, presenting cardinal Dariznu as an overzealous inquisitor, meaning well, but torturing and burning nevertheless on small accusations; but I am aware that he is an exception, and many of his ministers and templars grumble at his overzealousness. I use virtually all of the other communities (who are not as close to revolt as Thaliost, stuck between Aundair and Thrane, anyway) as well-meaning. Foreigners might not be liked, but the average Thrane has a greater motivation to be nice to them than the average Brelish, Aundairian or Karrn, who have no religion or culture that tells them to spread good. Regarding this quote, here's what I'll keep, for who is interested: By 915, almost any stripe of radicalism and zealotry was accepted as normal.: Nope. The threshold to determine what was 'normal' might have been a bit different, but nowhere near this. Only those communities headed by the few corrupt officials and those suffering from the greatest stress (like Thaliost, later) did this. Calling a neighbor "impious" could lead to that person's death sentence.: Nope, except in the most paranoid of communities, headed by one of the rare corrupt priests (again, such as my Thaliost). Anywhere else, the priest might go and talk to the neighbour and have a cup of tea, before warning the accuser that the next time he came up with an ungrounded accusation, he would be fined. The Pure Land movement murdered foreigners in the street: and was promptly outlawed by both secular and religious authorities. Similar 'purges' were going on, on a similar, small scale, in all the other countries. It is an unfortunate, but not too unrealistic effect of a protracted war, but shouldn't happen on a great scale. not all the cults of what came to be called the Righteous Kingdom were violent: quite right. but the more extreme militias, whether sincere or charlatans, were the ones who exerted the greatest influence.: They exerted the greatest influence on people's minds, yes. Things like some isolated zealots going on a killing spree does tend to stick in the mind more than the majority going to light some silverburn candles to pray for their soldiers. AFAIK, the Salem Witch Trials, for example, became famous because they were not normal.
Hellcow 06-16-07, 04:12 PM	Just to throw my final thoughts on the matter (with all I have to do, I shouldn't even be posting)... It's very easy to see the Church of the Silver Flame as a highly structured, monotheistic church with a militant tradition and a historical event involving the persecution of a particular group (and in the process the death of innocents) and to immediately equate it to those religions in our world that have traditions of inquisitions and crusades. The important thing to remember is that it's NOT a religion from our world. The Silver Flame is firmly grounded in Eberron. It is a religion whose first and foremost principle is the fight against supernatural evil... and unlike our world, Eberron is a place where there is a great deal of supernatural evil. Whatever one may say about gods, no one in Eberron questions the existence of demons. The bulk of the lycanthropes involved in the purge were muderous killers. When the light of the Flame falters, rajahs may be released, as happened in Thrane. Protecting the innocent from fiends isn't a theoretical job in Eberron; it is a serious and very dangerous one. Second: within the religion of the Silver Flame, the act of redeeming others and guiding them to the light isn't just a good deed. It's a matter of building the arsenal of the faith. Every noble soul adds to the light of the Flame. Killing a misguided person means one more soul that could have added to the Flame thrown away. If you're a paladin, that's one more soul that could have empowered your smite evil. As a warrior of the Flame, your goal is to defend the innocent from supernatural evil and show them the way to the Flame, so that they in turn can help you defend future generations from supernatural evil. By the standard creed, evil people may cause trouble for the living, but their mere existence doesn't cause spiritual harm. Hence, if there is any way to bring them back to the righteous path, it's worth doing. Killing them is failure. It may be necessary - you don't allow a murderer to kill twenty innocents while you try to redeem him. But it's always a failure. Many religions are based around the concept of a chosen people, and include images of a divine force smiting the enemy. That's not the way of the Silver Flame. The Flame is a faith founded on sacrifice; the couatl didn't (and couldn't) smite the rajahs, they sacrificed themselves to bind them. When the rajah was unleashed, the Silver Flame didn't just blast the demon - it required the aid of Tira, who sacrificed herself to save Thrane. The initial decades of the lycanthropic purge were weighted in favor of the lycanthropes (do the math - low-level warrior vs. werewolf); a great many templars died in the purge. They died to protect the farmers of Aundair, and they didn't demand that everyone in Aundair convert to the Silver Flame. It was a sacrifice made in pursuit of the core principle of the faith: defend the innocent from supernatural evil. With that said, the Silver Flame DID pick up many converts in Aundair because of its actions. And in my (officially unsupported) opinion, Aundair is where you find the most overzealous and closeminded puritans. Because these are the people whose faith was born not from sacrifice, but from the desire for revenge. These are the people who saw the Flame as a weapon that turned the tide of the lycanthropic terror, and it is these converts who, in the final days of the purge, conducted the most vicious inquisitions to root out every last lycanthrope. Because, again, they weren't just concerned with defending the innocent; they wanted vengeance for all of their kinfolk who had died. As we've said, war can drive people to extremes, and the Purge was a war. The Aundairians who embraced the Flame took to it as a purifying fire, not a flame of sacrifice. And in my opinion, that continues to this day. Thrane has always been the heart of the church, and the place where its core principles are most clearly understood. As stated in Five Nations, most Thranes are not mindless zealots. But Aundair is far from that heart, and it has seen the Flame used as a force for war. Here I see the faith being more aggressive, searching for foes, and asserting that the Keeper and Flamekeep aren't being rigorous enough in the battle against evil. Which brings us back to the issue at hand. What I take greatest issue with in the Convulsions of the Flame is the statement that people would be executed for impiety. As has already been said, the execution of an innocent person whose actions aren't endagering others is itself an impious action in the eyes of the Flame, which is based around showing people to the light. So what's my point? Contrary to what you might think, it's not "The Flame can do no wrong." Not at all. If you want to make the Flame about witch trials, inquisitions, and crusades in your campaign, feel free. But consider the reasons, and align them with the Flame. The Church of the Silver Flame shouldn't execute someone for impiety, because execution does nothing and denies a soul to the Flame. On the other hand, it could be argued that torture could "drive the evil from your soul, purifying you so you can join the Flame." The Silver Flame shouldn't go on a crusade solely because a nation doesn't share its faith. But if that nation is, say, ruled by demons? Now destroying that government is a war against supernatural evil, and that IS the foundation of the faith. If anyone was going to spearhead an assault of Riedra, it would be the Church of the Silver Flame. Of course, they might want do destroy Karrnath and its (say it with me) supernatural and evil army of undead first. So I'm not saying that the Church of the Silver Flame can't do horrible things, that you're wrong if you want to make them inquisitors or crusaders. But I'd like to see them acting for what, by the principles of the faith, are the right reasons. As has already been said many times, one of the core ideas behind the Silver Flame is that people can do evil while trying to do good. So the question is, how do they perceive their action as good? Killing an impious person sends the soul to Dolurrh with no hope of redemption. Torturing them COULD be seen as a path to redemption. It may be a semantic game, but it's a critical one. The Church of the Silver Flame isn't one of our religions, and its actions should be based on Eberron. With all that said, just because I'm saying you could have torture in the church doesn't mean that I think you should. It's clearly against the core principles of compassion, virtuous behavior, and leading by example. However, this is exactly where any faith can go astray from its core principles. Of course, this is where I see the Aundairian zealots being more likely to fall down this path than the Thrane moderates. I do see the Aundairians as having employing many witch-trial style forms of torture in the final days of the Purge. But again, that's a product of war, a thirst for revenge, and an imperfect understanding of the core principles of the faith. And, beyond this, I agree: The Church of the Silver Flame has no monopoly on corruption or confusion. Inquisitors of Aureon, crusaders of Dol Arrah hunting down "servants of the Mockery" or forcing people to accept the Sovereigns by sword - all of that makes perfect sense to me. Remember that the SH was the dominant religion of humanity when it came to Khorvaire, conquering and enslaving the goblins and other creatures. There ARE zealous among the Silver Flame who ignore the true principles of the faith. But the Sovereign Host doesn't even have that foundation of redemption and sacrifice in the first place; as a follower of the Sovereigns, killing an infidel loses you nothing, because you're not trying to add souls to the Flame. Sure, converting them to the faith never hurts, but death isn't a failure. The followers of the Sovereigns are less organized on a continental level, and thus may not be seen as the looming force of organized religion that people fear; but individual orders and branches within the faith could easily be powerful and dangerous. Of course, they can also be altruistic and virtuous. Again, it's easy to focus on the negative, but let us not forget the positive. The Lycanthropic Purge was an act of sacrifice on the part of the templars, who went to fight an evil in another country threatening people who didn't share their faith, because all noble souls can join the Flame, and because the defense of the innocent is the duty of the Flame. People may mourn the shifters whose lives were lost, but tens of thousands of peasant lives were lost as well, along with tens of thousands of templars; and if the church hadn't taken action, the plague could have transformed all of Khorvaire into a land driven by feral bloodlust. The mission of the Silver Flame is a noble one, and the fact that its mortal servants can't always live up to its ideals shouldn't cause people to lose sight of the virtuous goal... especially when the majority of the faithful do live in accordance with its principles. So: I do feel that the Convulsions of the Flame reflects an imperfect understanding of the core principles of the Flame. I feel that the killing of foreigners by extremist sects could be justified either if those foreigners were believed to be, say, possessed by demons... or if the act was NOT motivated by faith, but rather by nationalism. Likewise, if you changed people being killed for impious behavior to tortured in order to cleanse their minds - well, I'm still not thrilled with it, I'd still see it as being a fringe aspect, and i'd see it as being more appropriate to Aundair than Thrane - but I can certainly live with it. And again, everything else I've read in the History section is great. If Wolfgang reads this, kudos - I just take issue with this one section because, as others have noted, it reinforces the stereotype we've been fighting against for years. It all comes back to page 255 of the ECS. Eberron's not a black and white setting; it's about shades of gray. The Church of the Silver Flame seeks to wear the white hat, but it is stained by corruption, mortals failing to live up to the difficult standards of the faith, and so on. But that doesn't make their hat black. It makes it gray. The lycanthropic purge was a tragedy, but it would have been an even greater tragedy if no action had been taken at all; it could have even resulted in the utter destruction of Galifar. It wasn't a pure "white" action, because people made mistakes, fell prey to deception, and in the end allowed a thirst for vengeance to overcome the original motivation of compassionate sacrifice and defense. But it was an act undertaken at great cost that saved the people of Aundair, and possibly Khorvaire. The modern church may regret the innocents who were lost - but no one questions the fact that vastly more innocents were saved, and at great cost to the faithful of the Flame who answered the initial call. (Templar to Aundairian Peasant: "If it weren't for us, you'd all be howling at the moon.") Shades of gray. (Tied to this, I could see a Thranish extremist faction advocating violence against Aundairians for precisely this reason; after the sacrifice that the largely Thranish templars made to save their ancestors, how dare the Aundairians raise arms against Thrane?) All I can do is try to encourage people to look at both sides of the coin. Thrane is a theocracy, and the majority of its people are strongly dedicated to the faith. But as noted in Five Nations, they aren't mindless zealots; they're honest, hardworking people who love both family and Flame, and who seek to live by the guiding principles of virtue and compassion. Just like any religion, not all succeed. But they try, and those who try will seek to restrain the corrupt and the overzealous. Anyhow, make of all of this what you will. But I hope people will try to see the good as well as the evil, and to consider what the church seeks to accomplish with its actions even when laying tragedies at its door.
Trannic 06-16-07, 05:28 PM	I can't put out much better of a response than hellcow just did, but, I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in anyways. True that section of the book paints the flame much more darkly than has been previously seen but, that is the problem when people mistake zealotry for faith. Besides, it's not like there aren't parrallels in modern society, 'cause as we know, there are no examples of zealotry and extremism in todays world or religons (end sarcasm). I would think that it is close to a perfect example of what a religon would do in a situation much like what Thrane was in, using it as a way to focus the people on the greater war ahead. Just reference what Hitler did before WWII. He used propaganda to focus the german people on an enemy so that they would fight the battles that he wanted. I think the saying is, a person is smart, people are stupid, as well as if a lie is told often enough, it becomes truth (that one's from Lenin, that I know). When people are frightened and in need of guidance, they will turn to the loudest voice, especially the one that tells them that what they are doing is the "right thing to do". I'm trying to justify it but I, for one, liked the fact that the Silver Flame had its own dark time of faith, and through the strength of faith and heart those that knew that what was going on was wrong and worked hard to bring the church back to the bastion of hope and goodness that it once was. Well, listen to me blither on, if it matters, that's my opinion, please feel free to disagree.
Arcane Guyver 06-16-07, 06:06 PM	Mr. Baker, that was awesome. It's posts like that that make me want to call my group up and play more.
The Dreaming Duck 06-16-07, 06:18 PM	I'm trying to justify it but I, for one, liked the fact that the Silver Flame had its own dark time of faith, and through the strength of faith and heart those that knew that what was going on was wrong and worked hard to bring the church back to the bastion of hope and goodness that it once was. But where do you see the last part? I see a lot of attention given to the horror, injustice, and persecution of the innocent. I don't see any focus on anyone saying that it was wrong, or any strong voice turning the country around and creating what we see in Five Nations. And personally, without some seminal event, I'd expect an ongoing war to make things WORSE, not better. If we began on a foundation of blind zealotry, I would expect the war to drive people further down that path. Furthermore, I don't mind the "dark time of faith" if it reflects the faith in question. The idea of killing your neighbor for impious beliefs frankly makes more sense for followers of Dol Arrah - a war goddess dedicated to honorable behavior ("Your dishonorable behavior shows you to be tainted by the Mockery. You must die!") - than it does for the Silver Flame, which is about defending the innocent from demons, werewolves, and all that. If it was framed in a context like Hellcow has suggested - "Charismatic ministers claimed that the people were being influenced by the demons of the Whisperering Flame, and in this paranoid environment, an accusation of a neighbor was all it took to provoke a painful 'exorcism'" - we're at least couching the unpleasant action in the faith of the Flame. Bring in demons. Vampires. werewolves, even. Say that it was determined that the people needed to be cleansed of all doubt before going to war, and that torture was authorized to burn out this impurity so the soldiers of Thrane would join the Flame when they fell in battle. Anything to emphasis that this wasn't simple "You're not as pious as I am" agression, but rather terrible action driven by an overabundant dedication to the principles of the Silver Flame. But that's not how it comes across. It reads to me like the classic Christian witch trial/crusade, and the point is that the Silver Flame isn't Christianity. I'm fine with their being a dark time in the history of the Silver Flame. I think Hellcow's point about the faith of the Silver Flame in Aundair being founded on principles of revenge is an excellent way of explaining the existence of a violent and zealous puritan sect, and of explaining why this sect didn't join with the Thranes during the Last War. Attributing this sort of violence to THIS sect makes sense, because it was born out of hunting and persecuting lycanthropes hidden in a human community; paranoia and harsh justice are par for the course. But if we assume that the character of modern Thrane isn't completely different from that of its past, death sentences for impious behavior are out of character for the culture and aren't justified by the religion. A dark time for the Silver Flame is fine; but I want it to be a dark time for the Silver Flame, and not just a general image of a religious intolerance that's only vaguely grounded on the faith in question. With that said, I do want to say again that I think that this is an excellent book. If Mr. Baur comes to this thread I'd love to hear what he has to say on the matter, but I'd also thank him for everything else he's done here.
The Dreaming Duck 06-16-07, 06:19 PM	Mr. Baker, that was awesome. It's posts like that that make me want to call my group up and play more. What he said!
Syltorian 06-16-07, 09:22 PM	Please excuse me for going slightly off-topic here: I am wondering, given that the tenets of the Silver Flame prefer people to be redeemed and see killing them as a failure, how archbishop Dariznu of Thaliost is getting away with his alleged reign of terror? According to Five Nations (p.150), which otherwise does a great job on showing how genuinely good the Church is in the majority of cases, he is 'widely regarded as a vicious tyrant who burns people alive for his personal pleasure'. In the context of the redemption philosophies of the Flame, I do not understand how he gets away with this. Thaliost is not exactly a place so remote and unimportant as to escape the attention of the Diet of Cardinals. In fact, they must be focusing on it quite intently, as it is one of the prime trouble spots of the country, and one of the most likely places for the entire war to flare up again. And, by the same book (p.134), the cardinals do keep an eye on their archbishops and bishops. I'm aware that the text states he is 'widely regarded' as a tyrant; it does not state outright that he is one; but we could assume that, at the very least, he burns a good number of people at the stake. Thrane should, in theory, be lenient towards those who offend against secular as well as religious law, even if they are actually guilty of treason in a trouble spot. So how does he manage to keep his position, while committing such acts that the majority of the Theocracy is going to disapprove of, and which it would be difficult for him to hide? Why hasn't the Church stripped him of his position yet, for gross abuse of power and failure to keep up the Tenets of the Faith? Is he best friends with Krozen, or another member of the Diet, who protects him? Is he a granted special exemption because Thaliost is a hotbed of revolt and needs to be dealt with? Does he have a strong support amongst, say, the Puritans, which the Church cannot afford to upset quite yet?
Trannic 06-16-07, 09:51 PM	I'm just wondering dreaming duck, and I apologize if I'm being rude but, did you read any of the other Thrane sections? It mentions the fact that the very next Keeper Tagor was much more moderate than Keeper Serrain, and she fought hard over the years of her service to "soften" the wartime doctrine of the church so that there would be , well, less atrocities and that spreading the word of the Flame was through speech and deed not violence not sword. Of course, it also mentions the fact that she had a hard battle against the hardliners especially Cardinal Krozen. (pg.24) I'm not saying I'm right, well, maybe I am, but I'm also trying to show you there is more said about the Silver Flame than just the "dark times".
Kaodi 06-16-07, 10:00 PM	Now... you just gave me a wonderful idea for a major villain who is not out for some nefarious purpose, Hellcow. For a CRPG, I admit. Yes, I am a broken record in that respect. :) A lawful neutral fallen paladin in his middle years, who after decades of defending against those supernatural evils, and fighting in the Last War, has grown weary of the battle when his fellow man still fuels the darkness. So, he begins to kidnap people and brings them to his home, where he holds them up and tries to " re-educate " them. No torture, though he might be a little heavy handed when he is angry, but just prolonged confinement. His favourite target: people who pretend to be generous and pleasant, but are really mean bastards on the inside. The " heroes " are drawn into this as a beginning of an investigation of a string of disappearances, which leads them on a major adventure to get to the bottom of this (this would not be a single adventure, more like a camaign based around this one concept). Of course, this would go heavily into a the grey area of morals and ethics, and players could eventually choose to oppose him for several different reasons (or patrons), or even to aid him for different reasons. I'd be shooting for a villain you can really feel for, because he isn't evil, he's just become so disillusioned that he has latched on to the one core tenet of his belief, and begins to ignore the rest and the implications of what he is doing. Because, of course, some of his prisoners will be movers and shakers of Thrane, and perhaps of other nations too, you end up with a conundrum where you have to choose between allowing them to remain unredeemed, or letting the world around you begin to buckle at the edges because some of them are the rope that ties the government and the Church together. The focus of the game would be on roleplaying non-combat activities, and not plowing through a bunch of nameless and unimportant enemies (though there would still be a healthy, but believable number of enemies to plow through). Mostly, it would be an exploration of everything you just said about the Church, except that unlike in other games, the mastermind is not some sort of crazy powerful, evil or insane world smasher. He's just a former good guy, who would be about on par level wise with a single PC by the end, except he has none of his paladin abilities left.
The Dreaming Duck 06-16-07, 11:32 PM	I'm just wondering dreaming duck, and I apologize if I'm being rude but, did you read any of the other Thrane sections? No, you're right to ask, and I admit that I haven't read everything; I've skimmed for Thrane material, but I missed Thagor, for example. The following sections, such as page 24, do help ameliorate things. However, this still doesn't solve my essential problem, which is that the "dark times" as described don't fit the motivations of followers of the Flame. The example I gave of using torture to purify soldiers so that when they went to war all impurity would be burnt out of them? Great. That would be a horrible thing, with priests torturing their own people - but it would be a horrible thing with clear roots in the faith. Fears of demonic possession within the public would also fit; exorcism is a central theme of the Silver Flame (note the domains), directly tied to the foundation of the church (defend the innocent from the supernatural), and very hard to prove. So "The slightest accusation of demonic possession could be a sentence to painful - and sometimes fatal - exorcism procedings" would be an entirely different story. Would I like it? No. And I'd still want Tagor to come in and be horrified by it. But at least I'd feel that it made sense within the context of the religion, that it was an example of how the preexisting beliefs of the faith could be magnified to produce a horrible result. By contrast, the death sentence for impiety feels too bland and generic - the easy answer of religious intolerance. It's not that it's dark; it's dark in a manner that has no grounding in the faith, when there's many more interesting paths it could follow. According to Five Nations (p.150), which otherwise does a great job on showing how genuinely good the Church is in the majority of cases, he is 'widely regarded as a vicious tyrant who burns people alive for his personal pleasure'. Wow, that's even worse than this, given the degree to which if contradicts all the other stuff in the chapter. Yeah, that's just awful.
Hellcow 06-17-07, 12:56 AM	I am wondering, given that the tenets of the Silver Flame prefer people to be redeemed and see killing them as a failure, how archbishop Dariznu of Thaliost is getting away with his alleged reign of terror? Seems reasonably on topic to me. First: good catch. To be honest, I'd never seen that sentence before. And yes, in my opinion it's completely out of line with the values of the Flame, especially under Keeper Daran. The idea that Jaela would allow a commander in a public location to burn people alive - an action which is not only horrible but fails to serve the Flame - is a good one. The other question is how the archbishop sees this act as serving the Flame. What I've always said about evil clerics of the Flame is that they can be evil and still get their powers if they truly believe that their actions serve the greater good and the goals of the Flame. So: first question - how did something that seems so out of line with the rest of the chapter end up there in the first place? The answer is that Five Nations was a book with a great many cooks. Check the interior credits page and you'll see that it's got three people listed for design, three people listed for additional material, and hey, me as "special thanks". It was one of the first books slated for production after the setting came out. The problem is that the setting had only just come out, and the first people who worked on the book had absolutely no experience with the setting. So there were a lot of good ideas that simply didn't fit with the overall vision of the setting, because they didn't have that background to work with. So at the end of the day, Bill, David, and Chris came in and did a major overhaul, with some observations from me thrown in. My guess is that Archbishop Dariznu is a holdover from that initial design. Because it comes back to the topic of this entire thread: how quick people can be to turn to the worst stereotypes of religious intolerance in our world and apply them to the Silver Flame. We burned people. They've got "Flame" in their religion. Why not have them burn people? With that said... So, one option is to throw this out or ignore it. However, I think there are a number of different possible answers. First, as you say, the statement says that he's 'widely regarded as a vicious tyrant who burns people alive for his personal pleasure'. There's a number of key words here. First, 'widely regarded' tells us that this isn't necessarily true; rather it's a public perception. Now, this doesn't seem like the sort of rumor that gets started without SOME truth. Presumably, he has burnt people alive. But has he, in fact, done it for his "personal pleasure"? Is he a vicious tyrant? Here's how I would play this situation. Archbishop Solgar Dariznu is an Aundairian by birth. Once, the Dariznus were a widespread and powerful family in western Aundair. The Dariznus were almost completely slain during the Silver Purge. Most of the casualties fell and the claws and teeth of the weres, but a few were turned and caused some of the bloodiest atrocities of that conflict. Antain Dariznu was a child saved by the templars, the only one of his family to survive an attack let by his own transformed uncle. He embraced the Flame with a terrible passion and proved to be a powerful cleric. As the Purge came to an end, Dariznu was one of the loudest voices callling Aundairians to the Flame. He was known for his utter brutality in rooting out the last remaining weres; whenever his methods were questioned, he would snarl that the lycanthropes no longer had true souls, and that he had seen first hand what these monsters had become. There was nothing in them to be redeemed (which was, after all, a statement made by the Keeper), and they deserved only the cleansing flame, so that nothing of them would remain. In the decades that followed, Antain's children remained fiercely dedicated to the Silver Flame. The puritan movement has its greatest strength in Aundair, but the faith of the Dariznus is aggressive even for the puritans. They constantly argued that the church should be more roactive in the hunt for evil, lamenting the tens of thousands who died in Aundair before the church took action. And while they acknowledged the doctrine of redemption and the point that noble souls were needed to feed the Flame - and that defending the innocent was the core mission of the Church - they posited the existence of irredeemable evil among humanity, essentially suggesting that there were humans born with the empty souls of demons or lycanthropes. Such beings could not be redeemed, and the kindest action was to kill them. Many of the Keepers and people of Thrane found such beliefs to be deplorable and against the heart of the Faith. But Flamekeep was far from the fields of Aundair, and the Keepers couldn't force the puritans to change their ways; all they could do was warn the puritans to beware, lest they become that which they fought against. Over the decades, the puritans have contributed to the negative image many people have of the Church of the Silver Flame. They are seen as arrogant, close-minded, and often violent. There is validity to all of these claims. But for all of this, it is the case that the Puritans did take the fight to the enemy, both within Aundair and beyond. The puritans of Aundair have always been among the most active of the templars, battling fiends on the borders of the Demon Wastes, monsters coming from the Reaches, even venturing into Droaam. Puritan exorcists have dealt with true demons on many occasions. People may not like them, and they may use violence where a Thrane minister would try Diplomacy, but they are soldiers in a war against a threat that truly exists in the world; the problem is that they are hardened by the war, and are often willing to make sacrifices their counterparts would consider unacceptable. Likewise, they are less tolerant of other faiths than their moderate counterparts. The typical paladin of Thrane may feel that a paladin of Dol Arrah fails to act as a paladin should, but nonetheless is a virtuous soul and will find her way to the Flame after death. Many puritans believe that this is insufficient; that everyone must be brought onto the path in life as well as death, in order to truly create a paradise and bring a final end to evil. SO. During the Last War, Thrane laid claim to Thaliost, an Aundairian territory. This was an important city, and one the Thranes found hard to control. Rather than place a Thranish governor over the region, the Diet of Cardinals brought in a prominent Aundairian churchman - Solgar Dariznu. Those Aundairians who followed the Silver Flame respected Solgar, and this has helped him assert his authority. And in this place he has begun to create HIS ideal vision of a Flamic state - a realm harder than Thrane, and certainly one he would never be allowed to create in Aundair. Has Solgar burned people alive? Yes, and publicly. But he doesn't do this for personal pleasure. As Faiths of Eberron says, when someone cannot be redeemed, the sword may be the only solution - and Dariznu follows his ancestors' beliefs that these people are the soulless, demons in human flesh who have nothing to offer the Flame. As such, he prefers the flame to the sword. But these burnings are public executions of brutal war criminals and other people who are considered truly irredeemable. It is a horrible spectacle that draws a great deal of attention, and it is supposed to; it is a warning to those who still can be redeemed to find their way to the light. But it is nonetheless an act of last resort, not something done out of joy. Solgar prays for a day when he will never again have to smell the stench of burning flesh - a stench that haunts his dreams every night. Certainly he's seen as a tyrant by those Aundairians who don't follow the Flame. He's the leader of an occupying force - and one of their own, no less. But he simply seeks to maintain order, and to be a source of redemption in a chaotic and dangerous place. Why does the Church allow it? Many reasons. First, because execution is acceptable within the doctrine of the church, albeit as a last resort. Second, because they recognize it's not as frequent as described. Third, because Solgar holds tremendous influence among the puritans, and his position offers a chance to bridge the gap between the two sides - a gap that only widened during the Last War. The young Keeper has argued against it, but the Diet insists that it is the wrong time to abolish this practice - and for the moment, Jaela has conceded the point. Solgar Dariznu is a terrifying man to have as an enemy. He is utterly dedicated to his cause. He believes that the war against evil is far more important than any war between nations, and it is a war that knows no treaty. He is always evaluating everyone around him, looking for any sign of corruption, looking for ways to strike at the forces of evil and to strike first. His conviction is a powerful force, and his personal charisma is remarkable. He may be despised by many of the old inhabitants of Thaliost, but the puritans of Aundair adore him - and believe that, unlike KeeperJaela, he has the conviction it will take to face fiends and win. ------------------- So there's my Solgar Dariznu. ;) With that said, this brings up an explanation for the Convulsions of the Flame... take some of the blame off the people of Thrane. The Silver Flame had followers across Khorvaire before the war. Today it has followers in Breland, Aundair, Thrane, and even a token presence in Karrnath. There's a keep of the Silver Flame in Stormreach. The people of Thrane were closest to the Keeper and the heart of the faith; the further afield - as with the post-Purge recruits - the more distant one gets from those core principles. So what if one challenges the statement that "In 915, it was clear that the vision of a cleansing Silver Flame burned only within Thrane's borders." Instead, the point is that when people across Galifar heard of the vision, there was an influx of immigrant worshippers eager to be part of this new kingdom. Essentialy, many of the Flame faithful of Breland, Cyre, and Aundair abandoned their nations to be a part of this new kingdom. And it was these people who cause such chaos, bringing as they did conflicting traditions and misunderstandings about core principles of the faith. The puritans of Aundair brought the same zeal they had applied to the last days of the Purge to Thrane. And much of that violence and chaos was the result of people of conflicting traditions and conflicting nationalities suddenly in the same place. These people were united by their faith - but the faith wasn't entirely united between them, and they still had to shed old national rivalries to truly become members of the nation of the Silver Flame. Eventually, Keeper Tagor did manage to bring order and help unify most of these divergent beliefs, though some remain to this day, forming the roots of extremist groups like the Chalice of Blood and the Silver Torch. Of course, not all followers of the Silver Flame did answer the call. Some felt that it wasn't right for the cardinals and Keeper to rule the land - that their place was spiritual guidance, and that taking over secular duties would be a dangerous distraction from their true duties. Others believed that the purpose of the Flame was to fight supernatural evil - and that their religious faith had no bearing on this war between mortals. Tied to this, many - notably, many of Aundair's puritans - felt that the purpose of the faith was to defend the innocent, not to serve a single nation. As such, many chose to remain in their own nations, to defend THEIR innocents from harm. Solgar Dariznu was one of these. He remained in Aundair for most of the war; when Thaliost was seized, he petitioned the Cardinals to govern the region. His concern is protecting the innocent. His methods may seem horrific, but his sole goal is aiding the people of Aundair - even if those Aundairians are now, technically, residnets of Thrane. The lines on the map mean nothing to him; he cares about the bloodlines, and the people are still his people. Anyhow, I think that's how I'll reconcile this. The Convulsions of the Flame were a terrible period of chaos resulting from the integration of masses of immigrants - immigrants zealous enough to abandon their homelands to be a part of this holy kingdom. Lingering nationalism and variant faiths developed over centuries of drift resulted in the sectarian violence. A single charismatic leader claiming that the outsiders were possessed by demons come to lead the faithful astray could cause an explosion of paranoia and persecution. And so on. So yes, it was a dark and terrible time - but caused by outside forces and a forced unification of divergent beliefs and previous enemies to create a new state. And yes, Trannic, thanks for calling out the later sections. (So much for not posting - but this is a very important topic to me.)
Trannic 06-17-07, 02:11 AM	Thank you Hellcow, and dreaming duck for that, by the way, I love the word ameliorate, it's a great word to use. Ya I just wanted to bring up the fact that, for every horrible act, there were ones working to redeem the faith and show that, no, not everyone was a crazy people slaughtering zealot. Though I agree that, it's hard to reconcile the words in forge of war with how the Silver Flame has been painted up to this point. Still, since I've liked, and used, most every bit of material up 'til now, I'm not going to stop now.
Arithian 06-17-07, 02:11 AM	Just out of curiosity, couldn't the whole "Convulsions of the Flame" situation have been an instance of that particular Keeper listening to the "other" voice in the Flame. That certainly would seem to make it all make sense and yet still preserve all that has been previously written. Also not sure on this piece either, but it has been argued in other threads that the Keepers words are not questioned but considered the will of the Flame. Lastly, here’s I think the crux of the matter. The Flame could be completely pure, and its tenets those of mercy, redemption, and sacrifice. However man is the variable that can take something that is clearly good, and twist it in such a way that it looks nothing like its true form, and all in the name of zeal (without knowledge or wisdom), or in some instances just straight up selfish ambition, which has NOTHING to do with righteousness but simply using a "tool" to get what one wants; essentially a sadist (S: (n) sadist (someone who obtains pleasure from inflicting pain on others) with an agenda. I think the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" showed this best; there is a scene where one of the Knights has come to the realization that what many of the Crusaders were advocating and doing during the Crusade, namely the violence, and war being raged, was in COMPLETE contradiction of the Holy Scriptures. This however is a perfect example of what can happen when man, even in Eberron gets involved in the situation; they have free will and unfortunately some don’t use that free will to do right but to twist, and manipulate and serve their own purposes, and all in the name of God. Fortunately, just as one man is capable of great wickedness, another is capable of great righteousness and good. Tis the beauty of free will, and if that person whom chooses good is one of great passion, mercy and love you’d be surprised the difference that one generation can make.
Arcane Guyver 06-17-07, 02:37 AM	I think the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" showed this best; there is a scene where one of the Knights has come to the realization that what many of the Crusaders were advocating and doing during the Crusade, namely the violence, and war being raged, was in COMPLETE contradiction of the Holy Scriptures. The problem here is that, in Kingdom of Heaven, these false crusaders were pretty far away from the home turf of their religious leaders. The issue described here happened right under the religious leaders' noses.
Syltorian 06-17-07, 08:39 AM	So there's my Solgar Dariznu. ;) Keith, I am absolutely stunned by that description! Thank you so much for not only answering (despite the constraints on your time from work), but for coming up with such a great and extensive background for archbishop Dariznu! Anyhow, I think that's how I'll reconcile this. The Convulsions of the Flame were a terrible period of chaos resulting from the integration of masses of immigrants - immigrants zealous enough to abandon their homelands to be a part of this holy kingdom. Lingering nationalism and variant faiths developed over centuries of drift resulted in the sectarian violence. A single charismatic leader claiming that the outsiders were possessed by demons come to lead the faithful astray could cause an explosion of paranoia and persecution. And so on. So yes, it was a dark and terrible time - but caused by outside forces and a forced unification of divergent beliefs and previous enemies to create a new state. That's just brilliant. And yes, Trannic, thanks for calling out the later sections. It's good to hear, after the initial quote by the OP, that FW does take the move back to normal into account. Keeper Tagor did a great job there. Pity that most other nations will conveniently overlook that when trying to revile Thrane.
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 09:07 AM	I have a question about the whole conversion deal with the Silver Flame. If they found a good lycanthrope who was willing to convert to the Silver Flame, then what? Would they still kill him/her? Not all Lycanthropes are evil and in Eberron not even the sterotypical ones are all evil anymore. So some of those werewolves, wererats and other classical evil lycanthropes could have been good guys.
Syltorian 06-17-07, 10:08 AM	I have a question about the whole conversion deal with the Silver Flame. If they found a good lycanthrope who was willing to convert to the Silver Flame, then what? Would they still kill him/her? Not all Lycanthropes are evil and in Eberron not even the sterotypical ones are all evil anymore. So some of those werewolves, wererats and other classical evil lycanthropes could have been good guys. The Dragonshard Lycanthropes and the Purge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a) answers some of those questions. Let me quote the releveant bits: While the Church of Thrane no longer follows Jolan Sol's doctrines, the church continues to hunt shapeshifters in the present day. Jaela Daran has ordered templars to subdue lycanthropes whenever possible and to accept the surrender of any lycanthrope, so that the shapeshifter can be cured or exiled to Lamannia. However, if a lycanthrope does not cooperate, the templars use lethal force. This is covered under provisions in the Code of Galifar; the templars of the Church are authorized to defend the people of the Five Nations against supernatural threats, and a lycanthrope who willfully maintains his condition is seen as intentionally endangering others. The puritans of Aundair are infamous for ignoring Jaela's edicts, and most Aundairian templars show no mercy when dealing with lycanthropes. Thus a good lycanthrope will find that the moderates will try to cure him, or find a way to bring him somewhere where he cannot be hurt, but won't hurt anyone else either. If he truly wants to convert, he might understand the need for removing him from Eberron to Lamannia. And there are some interesting rumours regarding this, however: While cardinals and Keeper maintain that lycanthropy is a threat, rumors have spread regarding exceptional lycanthropes who have been allowed to remain on Eberron. Some say that the Church captured a werebear who had been fighting aberrations in the Eldeen Reaches, and that the Keeper of the Flame released him into the wild after hearing his tale. Some Aundairian puritans spread gossip that declares that Jaela herself is a lycanthrope; if the tales hold truth, it could be that the Silver Flame selected her to attempt to heal the damage done in its name. Thus, depending on how true these rumours are, a lycanthrope can indeed be accepted into the Silver Flame, even left go free and on Eberron itself. The bit about Jaela is of course even more interesting... a lycanthrope could thus not only join the Silver Flame, but even become it's Keeper.
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 04:27 PM	That article is interesting but it totally ignores the fact that Lycanthropes who are traditionally good like were-tigers and were-bears retain their good alingment while shapechanged. Thus they have no "dark impluses." Also if in Eberron a werewolf could be good he too would have no dark impluses. There are also other shapechangers I've heard of who are good to begin with. I forget the name but there are elven werewolves who are good alinged. They aren't traditional werewolves though, they are some kind of special werewolf and they are born that way (I think). I also think they cannot spread their infection since they were born that way, thus it's not an infection, its simply how they are born. The article also seems to ignore that the Silver Flames actual job is also to recruit more followers of the Flame. If a Lycanthrope is not evil or even good, killing them instead of redeaming them doesn't give more souls to the Flame. Though considering the fact of the voice of the "other" in the Flame maybe the Silver Flame getting all those followers isn't a good thing. Or perhaps the other encouraged some Silver Flame people to kill the good lycanthropes along with the evil ones. It's easier to corrupt people if you sneak in the evil actions instead of shoving it in their face "HERE! Kill the baby!" "What?I can't do that!" "Um well hey look a Lycanthrope, they are evil, kill them!" "Sure thing!" and in the midst of killing the Silver Flame doesn't check to make sure they are all evil.
OneWinged4ngel 06-17-07, 05:00 PM	Oh Wolfgang. First the clockwork articles now this.... :nonono: :headexplo I'm beginning to hate Wolfgang's writing with a burning passion. The clockwork articles made me very angry. This just caps it all. How can they let that guy keep writing after the clockwork articles? Honestly, his writing seems to be trying to emphasize the negative and inaccurate stereotypes against the setting and ultimately destroy its flavor with this sort of thing...
Mouseferatu 06-17-07, 05:07 PM	I hate Wolfgang with a burning passion. How can they let that guy keep writing after the clockwork articles? Honestly, at EVERY TURN his writing seems to be trying to emphasize the negative and inaccurate stereotypes against the setting and ultimately destroy its flavor with stupidity. Excuse me? Wolfgang's a fantastic writer, who's been doing this for many years, and over the course of many editions. We're lucky to still have him. Is his writing always appropriate to Eberron? Maybe not. But even if not, that's no reason to hate him or his writing. It just means you should look for his stuff elsewhere.
OneWinged4ngel 06-17-07, 05:15 PM	Excuse me? Wolfgang's a fantastic writer You can say that... but I've yet to see any evidence to correlate that, and a lot of counterevidence... who's been doing this for many years, and over the course of many editions That means next to nothing to me. Someone can do something for a long time and still not be good at it. Heck, sometimes writers even get *worse* over time, as they get "past their prime" as they say. We're lucky to still have him. Is his writing always appropriate to Eberron? Maybe not. But even if not, that's no reason to hate him or his writing. It just means you should look for his stuff elsewhere. What better reason is there to hate someone's writing than if it's... very bad in all cases I've seen it? I've seen him write a spell clock with mechanics that can't even be *used* because he does such a bad job of classifying how it works. I've seen him write a cheap item that gives 10 foot steps without a second thought as to how that would actually work in play. Moreover, I've seen those lame articles try to steamroll Eberron into a steampunk classification where there was no such technology before. And then, just when people seem to be letting up on the stupid "zomg evil catholics" stereotype, he has to write this. From the few quotes I've seen, I'm already horrified. It is SO far out of line with the existing canon as to be appalling. You can talk about "a few sects" and so forth... but that's not what he's written. He's turned the Silver Flame's movement into something akin to the French Revolution in bloodiness, where people who aren't faithful to the flame are regularly put to death and any strain of zealotry is considered "normal"! Coming from a religion that is generally accepting of the Sovereign Host! Coming against the idea that the rise of the Silver Flame to power was generally a relatively peaceful and accepted coup! Contradictions against every source that people have been referencing on this thread! Great writer? Maybe, but I'll believe it when I see it. I know that I can write a lot better than anything I've seen from him so far... and he seems to have an utter disregard for the setting. If he doesn't want to bother to learn the setting, or if his writings aren't appropriate for the setting as you suggest, let him take his "massive talent" somewhere else where it's more "appropriate." That only sounds logical, right? Would it be better for me to say "I hate his work on Eberron that I've seen so far, as it seems to be outright bad for the setting and contradictory to most existing lore, and the mechanics are as much of a mess as the fluff?" Now, of course, my inital dislike comes from the clockwork articles. I've not yet actually read Forge of War, but that passage looks to be way out of line, and not at all encouraging. Is his writing always appropriate to Eberron? Maybe not. But even if not, that's no reason to hate him or his writing. It's... not? So thinking someone's writing is poorly done isn't a reason to dislike the person's writing? Color me confused, because that sounds like a bit of a strange thing to say. Maybe you could clarify the intent of that quote for me, because it sounds rather strange. Honestly, I've got to hear what "better" reason there could be to hate someone's writing than if it's bad... and indeed destructive to the setting it's written in, only reinforcing inaccurate stereotypes and breaking away from the setting's flavor? If you can't dislike someone's writing for being bad, what can you dislike it for? I mean, I'm sorry to sound mean, but I'm just telling it like I see it. I've seen nothing but... terrible wrongness associated with every mention of this guy's name. So how am I supposed to believe he's the great writer you claim? Sure, it might be limited experience, maybe I didn't see something of his that actually was of good quality, or maybe I did and didn't realize he wrote it. However, all that I've seen associated with him has been awful (and indeed, I would often consider the material awful, only to learn LATER that it was written by him.) Of course, I don't really have anything to associate with him besides these offensive passages and the clockwork articles, so like I said, it could be limited experience. That's not an excuse for those selections being bad, though. Anyways, while I'd be glad to listen to you point out some case where I'm wrong, your reply kinda looks like a "nuh-uh!" to me, no offense intended. Well... that's my rant for the day. :rant: I'll still buy Forge of War, of course (my collection has to be complete after all), and hopefully the rest of the book will be better than this first impression. I've enjoyed some of your work though, Mouseferatu. :) I'm not sure exactly what parts of Faiths of Eberron you worked on (I think the Silver Flame, Sovereign Host, and maybe Undying Court chapter was your work? The styles seem a bit similar... but I only distinctly remember Silver Flame being on the list), but I was quite happy with much of it.
Volaran 06-17-07, 05:16 PM	That article is interesting but it totally ignores the fact that Lycanthropes who are traditionally good like were-tigers and were-bears retain their good alingment while shapechanged. Thus they have no "dark impluses." Also if in Eberron a werewolf could be good he too would have no dark impluses. There are also other shapechangers I've heard of who are good to begin with. I forget the name but there are elven werewolves who are good alinged. They aren't traditional werewolves though, they are some kind of special werewolf and they are born that way (I think). I also think they cannot spread their infection since they were born that way, thus it's not an infection, its simply how they are born. The article also seems to ignore that the Silver Flames actual job is also to recruit more followers of the Flame. If a Lycanthrope is not evil or even good, killing them instead of redeaming them doesn't give more souls to the Flame. Though considering the fact of the voice of the "other" in the Flame maybe the Silver Flame getting all those followers isn't a good thing. Or perhaps the other encouraged some Silver Flame people to kill the good lycanthropes along with the evil ones. It's easier to corrupt people if you sneak in the evil actions instead of shoving it in their face "HERE! Kill the baby!" "What?I can't do that!" "Um well hey look a Lycanthrope, they are evil, kill them!" "Sure thing!" and in the midst of killing the Silver Flame doesn't check to make sure they are all evil. The Lycanthrope purge ignores a number of things, including the idea that going by base rules, if I recall correctly, lycanthropy cannot be passed on by 'infected' Lycanthropes. I believe Keith has hypothesized that some of them were assisted by certain sects of the Flame is escaping to Lammania rather than being destroyed, but when considering the nature of the purge, one must remember that not everyone has a "detect alignment" spell or ability available to them. Further, Keith has suggested that the reason behind the purge was that the curse of lycanthropy was stonger in those days. Even now, being triggered by any of Eberron's twelve moons, but at that time, infected lycanthropes could pass on the curse. For this reason, the Flame fought in infected on a physical level, and attempted to weaken the curse as well. To be direct, most of the questions you've posed are answered partially or completely by Keith in that Dragonshard, including the differences between traditionally good-aligned were-creatures. Far from ignoring it, the subject is addressed in the first two paragraphs. In Eberron, the alignment of a lycanthrope is not linked to her animal form. A werebear can be evil and a werewolf can be good. Lycanthropes carrying an evil strain are some of the most terrifying creatures on Eberron: While a natural werewolf may wear a human shape, she is a born predator who takes joy in spilling human blood. Those afflicted by the disease suffer a dramatic change in personality, regardless of the alignment of the victim before and after the curse. As a result, lycanthropes of all types have always been feared. Under the best circumstances, the bite of a lycanthrope means a loss of identity; in the worst, it can make a good person into a vicious killer. For an afflicted lycanthrope, this mental transformation is permanent. Even the strongest will crumbles before the supernatural power of the disease -- and only magical effects such as miracle or atonement can restore the former personality of the victim. A natural lycanthrope cannot be cured; the disease is a part of her body and soul, and it cannot be stripped away. The lycanthrope born into evil may find the strength to become good, but she will always feel the predator in the back of her mind, urging her to prey on the weak and innocent.
Volaran 06-17-07, 05:33 PM	I'd have to say that I enjoy Wolfgang's work as a whole, especially going back to his Planescape days, as well as his recent work on the Iron Kingdoms. We're also running through the War of the Burning Sky in my group at the moment, and the one-paragraph description of his adventure sounds fantastic. I still don't know what exactly was behind the clockwork articles, but as I have mentioned elsewhere, between those and certain comments I'd seen posted from him regarding the alleged steampunk nature of Eberron, I was somewhat fearful that we'd see something along the line of warjacks in the Last War. Thankfully those fears seem unfounded. The Convulsions of the Flame does make that era sound very much like the Menite religion is actively played out in the Iron Kingdoms (they like fire, they like crusades, they don't like heretics, the evil elements are strong in the faith), which seems to be a misstep, as described very well earlier in this thread. If that is the only problem that people have found with his work in the book, then I am still looking forward to it, and any future work of his in the setting.
Syltorian 06-17-07, 05:45 PM	That article is interesting but it totally ignores the fact that Lycanthropes who are traditionally good like were-tigers and were-bears retain their good alingment while shapechanged. Thus they have no "dark impluses." Remember that Lycanthropy had been around for ages, before the Silver Flame launched the crusade. Your comment is right in as far as it applies to the time both before and after the Purge. There are good werecreatures, who do not have any 'dark impulses', though they certainly have some animalistic and bestial ones. But the Lycanthropy the Reachers, Aundairians and ultimately the Templars were faced with in the Purge was different. First, afflicted lycanthropes could spread the curse. That already is unlike 'traditional' lycanthropy. Second, good and neutral lycanthropes fell into evil, and evil lycanthropes became even more vicious. They were not corrupted by their own impulses, in all likelihood. Nobody has managed to ascertain what happened - demons, thirteenth moon, or something else entirely - but we are talking about the werecreatures going crazy with bloodlust all of a sudden. The Purge was declared precisely because it was not traditional lycanthropy, and the article makes that pretty clear. There are also other shapechangers I've heard of who are good to begin with. I forget the name but there are elven werewolves who are good alinged. Lythari, I believe. But they are Forgotten Realms, and are not (except by an individual DM's fiat) in Eberron. I could see them in Xen'drik, perhaps related to those druids who were cursed by the giants, but as such they do not exist in Eberron. And they would not be 'good', even if they did... they'd just be 'anything', just like every other non-outsider in the setting. The article also seems to ignore that the Silver Flames actual job is also to recruit more followers of the Flame. If a Lycanthrope is not evil or even good, killing them instead of redeaming them doesn't give more souls to the Flame. If you hold the theory that the lycanthrope's soul is tainted (his alignment changes to that of the one who afflicted the curse on him; it doesn't matter what it changes to - it's still a curse), it would not be a huge step to believe that a tainted soul cannot join the Flame and is lost forever. Of course, the modern Church does try to redeem and heal lycanthropes. The article mentions that too, and it says that the Church has since found evidence that their former theory that lycanthropy was incurable was unfortunately wrong.
Hellcow 06-17-07, 09:09 PM	That article is interesting but it totally ignores the fact that Lycanthropes who are traditionally good like were-tigers and were-bears retain their good alingment while shapechanged. But in Eberron, no lycanthrope is "traditionally good", AkumaDaimyo. Just as no lycanthrope is traditionally evil. While it is a deviation from traditional folklore, it is an established aspect of Eberron. I discussed this just a week or so ago on another thread, so I'll just quote that. In the case of lycanthropes, this has actually been a subject of considerable discussion between myself and the WotC design team. This resulted in the Purge dragonshard. The WotC ruling is that lycanthropic alignment is not aligned with lycanthropic form. You can have a good wererat and an evil werebear. However, it is a curse that forces a radical change in personality, including alignment. The trick is that it changes alignment to that of the infecting lycanthrope. Essentially, there are different strains of the curse. If you're bitten by an evil werewolf, you become an evil werewolf. If you're bitten by a good werewolf, you become a good werewolf. Unfortunately, the evil lycanthropes are far more likely to spread the curse, so the numbers are heavily weighted in favor of evil. Furthermore, in comparison to the slow corruption of a vampire, the transformation of a lycanthrope is instant and dramatic. It's not a transformation of your own personality - it's a curse that fundamentally alters who you are. You could BE an evil person. But when you become an evil lycanthrope, throw the PHB description of "evil" out the window and look to page 178 of the Monster Manual ("An evil lycanthrope who is aware of his actions... delights in bloodshed and will certainly seek out opportunities to slaughter intelligent beings, preferably those of his own race." Hence, shifter lycanthropes taking great pleasure in tricking the Silver Flame into slaughtering other shifters). Even GOOD lycanthropes are quite different from the typical good PCs; they "seek to avoid settlements or travelers and nonnatural environments." Becoming a lycanthrope isn't a free gift of power - it is a curse, and whether the strain is good or evil, it will dramatically transform the personality and life of the person infected. A DM may decide that it's possible for a lycanthrope to break free of this curse. Perhaps magic is used (helm of shifting alignments or the like). An important thing here is that even if the character's alignment does change, the alignment of the lycanthropic strain he carries remains. If an evil werewolf somehow becomes good, he'll still transform those he infects into evil werewolves. Before someone brings it up (again), in the present age (and by 3.5 RAW) an afflicted lycanthrope can't pass on the curse - only natural lycanthropes can. Yup. We know. At the time of the Purge, that wasn't the case; it's all in the dragonshard. While afflicteds can't pass on the curse NOW, many fear that whatever happened in the past could happen again, so the danger is always there. Moving on... The article also seems to ignore that the Silver Flames actual job is also to recruit more followers of the Flame. I couldn't disagree more. The single most important principle of the Silver Flame is to protect the innocent from supernatural evil. Everything else flows from that goal. The Silver Flame itself is a source of divine energy that empowers those who defend the innocent, and that holds the greatest evil at bay. Thus, a secondary goal is to strengthen the Flame. And by the core, moderate belief any noble soul can join with the Flame. Which is why the sword isn't the first choice for countering HUMAN evil - because humans can be lead to the light and thus join the Flame. But they don't have to become members of the Church - they just have to follow the light. This is why the bulk of the church accepts other good-aligned religions. You may worship Boldrei or Dol Arrah, but as long as your beliefs have you on a virtuous path, they will take you to the Flame, whether you know it or not (though some puritans certainly disagree with this). So I may not believe in your god, but as long as your silly beliefs have given you a moral compass, that's OK. With all that said, it's better if you join the church. Not only will it put you on the right path, it can use your help in doing good in the world. Hence the friars and missionaries. It's GOOD to spread the faith of the Flame. If everyone embraced the faith, the world would be a paradise (according to them). But the first and single most important thing is to defend the innocent from demons, undead, and other horrors. That's why the Flame exists in the first place. Once the innocent are safe, THEN you can try to guide them to the proper spiritual path. Now, the point of everything said in that article and that I've said on the boards is that the first fifty years of the Purge were not some sort of witch trial. "Seen any lycanthropes around here?" "Nope." "I'm afraid we'll have to cut off your hand to make sure." It was a war. Go to western Aundair and you'd find entire villages filled with nothing but bloodstains and gnawed bones. But it was a guerilla war, a reign of terror. Any village, any family could be a pack of werewolves or weretigers waiting for the right moment to strike. So imagine that everyone within a mile radius of you was killed by monsters. You don't even KNOW exactly what they were. Rats? Wolves? Tigers? All you heard was the screams. Was it luck that let you live, or did they want you to live with the horrible memories of what you saw, the bloody ruins of the people you loved? Then the templars found you, and gave you a sword so you could avenge your family. Now you have uncovered a thing that looks half-human, half-rat. It holds up its hands and begs for mercy, claiming that it is innocent. Do you believe it? Do you say "Oh, they might not all be evil - perhaps THIS one is carrying some different sort of curse." Or do you strike it down before its fellows return to save it? That's what the Purge was about. Utter horror on all sides. It's easy for US to say "A werebear might be good." But when you're the templar warrior (and I mean warrior, specifically as opposed to fighter, ranger, or paladin) who finds a massive bear in the village, do you pause to try to reason with it? Do you risk your own life (even more than you already are) to try to capture it alive? Or do you just strike as quickly as you can, praying that faith and the element of surprise will see you through this fight and let you save the people in need? Beyond this, as I said, the core mission of the Silver Flame is to protect against supernatural evil... and lycanthropes (at least evil ones) are just that. The Keeper himself said that the curse destroyed the soul - that there was nothing to save. Now, this is exactly where he might have been misled by the wrong voice, and the article itself notes that the people of the present day feel that he acted in haste. But at the time, it was that simple. A templar swore to give his life to defend those in need from unnatural threats. Now in the west, farmers are being slaughtered by unnatural creatures. His job is clear: defend the farmers. Since Ari's on the thread, I'll point to what he wrote on page 57 of Faiths of Eberron - the hierarchy of evil. It goes something like this: Alien evil. Outsiders and aberrations. Things that have no place in the world whatsoever. Unnatural evil. Natural things corrupted into something hideous; the specific examples given are vampires and, well, lycanthropes. According to FoE, "Their presence taints the world around them, making them almost as great a threat as outsiders." Innate evil. Creatures which the church perceives as being essentially evil as a culture; the examples given are medusas, yuan-ti, and hags. Those who choose evil. Evil humanoids. These are the people you hope to redeem. But even here, violence is an option if there is no alternative. It is a FAILURE - but the good of the many does outweigh the needs of the few. So even if the lycanthropes DIDN'T fall into that higher category, at the time, there was no question that they posed a clear threat to far more innocents. There wasn't time or resources to use kid gloves. The evil within. The evil impulses in even the most noble of us. So by this list, a lycanthrope is far, far worse than an evil human. He's been corrupted. He's a threat to the world around him. If you CAN save him, you've done a great and wondrous thing, and many believe there is a movement within the church trying to do just this. But the church doctrine will back you up if you just kill him - because you're protecting the innocent from the danger he poses. Furthermore, bear in mind that when the church seeks to promote good and destroy evil, we're not talking about "that which can be detected with detect good or detect evil." Evil-aligned people can serve the cause of good, and good people can, as we've seen, be responsible for terrible atrocities. At the time of the Purge, lycanthropes were slaughtering thousands of innocent people. Whether those lycanthropes had a good or evil alignment was irrelevant; what was HAPPENING was evil. Now, the good-aligned lycanthropes undoubtedly weren't participating in the killings - but it's not like there was a police investigation going on here. In the long run, it's unlikely many good lycanthropes were killed during the early years of the Purge, simply because they WEREN'T actively fighting and good lycanthropes are driven to avoid civilization. So the hunting of the good lycanthropes occured at the END of the conflict... and at this time, things were largely being driven by the fanatical Aundairian converts, not the original Thranish templars. This is where my earlier post comes in. These were people who wanted revenge more than justice. They didn't care about saving one more soul for the Flame - they wanted these creatures of unnatural evil to suffer for the deaths of their friends and family. And that's where you do get more of the traditional image of an inquisition and of weres hiding from persecution. But in the first days of the war, the shoe was quite definitely on the other foot. And it was the horror and bloodshed of that time that fueled the ruthless inquisition that followed... an inquisition largely overseen by Aundairian puritans. One final point: A vital thing to see here is that the article DOESN'T overlook the fact that afflicted lycanthropes can't spread the curse. During the Purge, they could. Something changed. Most church scholars believe that it was the result of a critical mass of lycanthropes, that with each new host the curse grew in power. And that in turn is why the church is so adamant about destroying lycanthropes (or curing them, or driving them off-plane) wherever they can be found - because they firmly believe that the events of the Purge could happen again. This is exactly what's meant by "their presence taints the world around them." By church doctrine, they simply aren't natural. They aren't meant to be. And as such, whether they are good or evil as individuals, they pose a threat to the innocent.
PoeticJustice 06-17-07, 10:23 PM	While I am happy for anything that brings such fabulous discussion to our boards, might I say that I am getting tired of continuity arguments occurring with each and every release. I know what you're thinking. Stop. You're thinking I'm about to rage over quibbling arguments regarding textual consistency. Well, I'm not. Dissonance is not always a bad thing, particularly when you are trying to play to a very large audience. Frankly, not many of us are capable of writing, DM'ing, or playing on Keith's level. Some of us merely want the fat, pasty cleric with black teeth and cold eyes pointing and snarling "Quell those heretics by any means necessary!" I hear a lot of people saying they'd never take the convulsions into their campaign. This is fine, but to become incensed over a perceived error in a fantasy gaming supplement, as some (but not many) have done, is idiotic. I reiterate that the community should grow more tolerant of different outlooks on parts of the campaign setting. Chaining writers to the continuity will not help us in the long run, and no matter how much we complain there's always going to be a little bit of inconsistency. Embrace artistic license.
Nived 06-17-07, 10:50 PM	We're geeks, we argue over the smallest infractions of a fictional world. That's what we do.
Azazyll 06-17-07, 10:53 PM	First: Could someone please post details about the book for those of us who couldn't pick it up yet? Spoilers, please, I'm begging you! Second: This pains me, but I'll play devils advocate (even against the almighty Hellcow). Granted I haven't read the section, and Hellcow's immigrant population also makes a lot of sense, but in my (humble) opinion, this isn't the huge, Eberron-destroying problem that people are making it out to be. Religions are not monolithic. The church of the silver flame, at the time, was particularly not monolithic, as it hadn't yet achieved a firm foothold on government. It was going through a period of dramatic change, to becoming the temporal as well as spiritual authority of a region. That takes the already existing Thranish inclination to believe themselves spiritually superior for being already almost universally converted to the true faith and adds to it the dawning of a new age, where the silver flame will rule. It's apocalyptic, messianic. the common people, stirred up by preachers who probably know little more than they do about the intricacies and priorities of their faith and are too enraptured to care, expect the imminent arrival of a new age brought on by the conquest of Khorvaire by the silver flame. All who resist are clearly motivated by the agents of supernatural evil, and must be crushed to bring on this new, perfect age. That means the other nations, and by extension, their people who are corrupting the heart of the people of the flame, the blessed nation of Thrane, the one nation to have seen the path to the glorious future the flame has provided and it's chosen instrument. Philosophers and theologians of the flame watch in horror. the keeper decries the atrocities, condemns the preacher's actions, but his words and condemnations cannot spread fast enough in a country in the throws of political upheaval. All he can do is make sure that it never happens again, enforcing correct doctrine and checking the potential for demagogues to use the fears of war to incite violence once again. But in the end, some of those same ideas are used to inspire Thranish troops on the battlefield. Thrane is the begining of a new age, an instrument of the Flame, and should rule over a reunited Galifar. The Last War rages on. I'm not saying you have to take that interpretation, but that's how I'd take it, although Hellcow's take is certainly a fascinating and clever alternative. My point here is, just because the silver flame is a nuanced religion, and it certainly should be, doesn't mean that people won't be people. Most people don't know the ins and outs of religion, and in a nation like Thrane, where politics and religion are mixed, and certainly at the time of this incident confused, it's easy to see how the two could build off each other in an escalating cycle of violence. History provides endless examples of people not being very familiar with the intricacies of their religion, and either bending them or outright ignoring them even if they do. There's not even a unifying text behind the silver flame. In any faith there are multiple interpretations, multiple priorities, and not even a divinely inspired supreme leader can keep total control, particularly when events happen quickly, even if they happen right under his nose. And he would certainly have an even bigger problem stopping the violence if it was inspired by the dragon below or the dark voice in the flame (let's not forget supernatural reasons behind any massacre in Eberron) I like the silver flame standing for one thing but constantly failing. I like the Thranes thinking they're better than everybody else because they've seen the light as a nation and accepted the flame, not only in their hearts but on their throne. It's very human, and to me, it's very Eberron. Third: Wolfgaung Bar is awesome. Read the Dark Matter campaign setting for Alternity. I rest my case.
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 11:02 PM	Uh that part about WotC saying that alingment isn't attached to form is pure BS. Werebears are ALWAYS Lawfull Good. It says so right in the MM page 171. The little bit of fluff on them even says that "They desire only their own company and seek out evil creatures to slay." What's more they are ALWAYS Lawfull Good in all forms. Wereboars: Always Neutral Wererat: Alawys LE Weretiger: Always Neutral Werewolf: Always CE. They then say that creatures like rats, snakes and wolves tend to be evil and creatures like bears, eagles and lions tend to be good. So where's the consitancy? One page says ALWAYS another says "Well we are wishy washy and they could be any." So while in Eberron they can be any alingment in other settings this is NOT true at all. Furthermore I don't agree with the bit on the Silver Flame at all. If their job is to protect from evil, wouldn't killing something that is NOT evil go against that? Don't these peole have detect evil spells? I think they probably did kill good lycanthropes. They could have easily ferreted out some villages of good ones or someone could have betrayed them. What's more is I think when it comes to genocide that some of the good guys might actually protect their evil cousins from all out destruction or at the very least become worried about themselves being next. In that instance I'd stand with a evil lycanthrope if I was a lycanthrope and I knew we were being indescriminatly killed. I'd also see it to almost be evil to stand by and do nothing while most of your "race" is being exterminated like flies. Perhaps even a call went out amongst lycanthropes for help? Sounds like a moral decision to me. Turn your back on the evil lycanthrope because you feel he deserves it or get involved and possibly be killed yourself? It kinda reminds me of the thing about the Halocust where no one speaks up because they weren't the ones being affected and then eventually they are killed too and no one is left to speak up.
Volaran 06-17-07, 11:11 PM	AkumaDaimyo, if you're going to argue with the setting creator (Hellcow) about what WotC has ruled is different in Eberron than the core rules, I see little reason to continue in that thread of discussion. Of course, you're free to interpret as you wish for your own campaigns, and I've still enjoyed the thread as a whole.
DragoonDarkfire 06-17-07, 11:17 PM	We're geeks, we argue over the smallest infractions of a fictional world. That's what we do. I'm telling you. Kirk would SO kick Picard's ass!
AkumaDaimyo 06-17-07, 11:17 PM	Certain Lycanthropes may not be all evil/good in Eberron BUT in other settings yes they are and the MM backs this up. I friggin just looked at it. It's on paper and yet you try to tell me I'M wrong? No sorry. I'm not. I don't know why WoTC would tell Keith that Lycanthropes alingment is not attached to their form when right in the MM that every single Lycanthrope's alingment is listed as ALWAYS. This doesn't hold true in Eberron but in the Realms? Greyhawk? and you can be very sure it holds in Ravenloft. What he said was that WoTC said that lycanthrope alingment was not tied to form OVERALL, meaning in all settings, when the MM contradicts that and IS a primary source after all.
Mouseferatu 06-17-07, 11:31 PM	Um, Akuma... Where does it say that WotC said this was true of all settings? This is a discussion about Eberron; therefore, I think it's pretty clear, by implication, that Keith was talking to them about lycanthropes in Eberron. Nothing in this thread applies to lycanthropes in any other setting.
OneWinged4ngel 06-17-07, 11:32 PM	Um, Akuma... Where does it say that WotC said this was true of all settings? This is a discussion about Eberron; therefore, I think it's pretty clear, by implication, that Keith was talking to them about lycanthropes in Eberron. Nothing in this thread applies to lycanthropes in any other setting. Seconded. Akuma, we're not talking about other settings. We're talking about Eberron. In Eberron, you're wrong. And the discussion about the silver Flame and the purge and so forth is only relevant in Eberron.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-17-07, 11:51 PM	> And that in turn is why the church is so adamant about destroying > lycanthropes (or curing them, or driving them off-plane) wherever they can > be found - because they firmly believe that the events of the Purge could > happen again. This is exactly what's meant by "their presence taints the > world around them." By church doctrine, they simply aren't natural. They > aren't meant to be. And as such, whether they are good or evil as > individuals, they pose a threat to the innocent. I've mentioned this before, but one of the Forgotten Realms books included a feat called "Silver Fang" which is found among a group which includes a large population of good-aligned werewolves. Thematically, it's gained by undergoing a special ritual. It's not OGL so I can't copy it directly, but it has two major mechanical effects: Your natural attacks count as silver for bypassing DR, and if you're a lycanthrope your attacks can no longer cause infection. Now, theme this to the Silver Flame in Eberron, and think about the implications - someone has developed (or rediscovered, perhaps in Xen'drik) a ritual which draws on the power of the flame to "cleanse the taint" both physically and spiritually - and it's hard to argue with its effectiveness because they're no longer infectious and their strikes carry the power of the flame (just like a lot of Silver Flame prestige classes which cause natural attacks to count as silver). That's certainly going to cause some theological issues for the church (the Aundairans especially will have a fit), but it actually meshes with the current doctrine as outlined above - and if anything may be seen as proof of the faith in that it demonstrates that the power of the flame is so great that it can even redeem supernatural evil (and perhaps fill the void of their lost souls) as well as the more mundane evil of ordinary people.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-17-07, 11:56 PM	> This doesn't hold true in Eberron but in the Realms? It doesn't hold true in the Forgotten Realms either. The FR designers have specifically talked about the fact that most "always" alignments are loosened to "usually" or "often" and FR sourcebooks have quite a few lycanthropes whose alignments differ from those in the Monster Manual, including a large group of good-aligned werewolves in Champions of Valor (as mentioned above). Just because something is true in the generic/Greyhawk setting doesn't mean it's true in all settings. Both the FR and Eberron specifically differ from the generic setting on many points; this is just one of them.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 01:54 AM	Certain Lycanthropes may not be all evil/good in Eberron BUT in other settings yes they are and the MM backs this up. I friggin just looked at it. It's on paper and yet you try to tell me I'M wrong? I have to second what others have said on the thread. Not to be rude, but what are you talking about? This is an Eberron thread, explaining the motivations of the Church of the Silver Flame in a historical event in Eberron. The article that was linked was a Dragonshard - an article providing an in-depth look at an aspect of Eberron. And if you want something on paper, turn to page 250 of your Eberron Campaign Setting - under the heading Alignment is Unpredictable, it states "The Creatures of Eberron are not bound by traditional alignment restrictions." In the Realms? Greyhawk? Ravenloft? Yes, a werewolf is always evil, a werebear is always good, and an afflicted lycanthrope can never transfer the curse. But what does any of that have to do with a discussion about the Silver Flame? Religions are not monolithic. The church of the silver flame, at the time, was particularly not monolithic, as it hadn't yet achieved a firm foothold on government. Actually, I'd have to disagree with you here, Azazyll (though I respect your opinion). The Church of the Silver Flame (taken separately, of course, from the Ghaash'kala orcs, the serpent cults, or other practices tied to the Flame) has always been the MOST monolithic of the religions of Khorvaire - because it was born from a single source. By comparison, the Sovereign Host is inspired by the Pyrinean faith, but it's had thousands of years to splinter off into variant sects. And in the present day, there is no one single "Church of the Sovereign Host". In my opinion, the relatively young age of the Church of the Silver Flame works to its advantage, not its detriment... and there's a reason we always refer to it as the Church of the Silver Flame. Thrane has always been the heart of the church. Tira Miron saved her nation with her sacrifice, and that's what united people behind the faith. Not the idea of a theocracy. Almost hundred years before the idea of a theocracy was put forward, the templars of Thrane fielded an army organized and powerful enough to eliminate lycanthropy - and they have enough devoted followers that they could ASSEMBLE an army to go and die in Aundair at the hands of monsters for the cause of the Flame. It was this unity and zeal that later made the theocracy possible, not the other way around. The Silver Flame saved the people of Thrane - and perhaps the world - from the demon overlords. Tira's sacrifice made her the Voice that called the people to follow in her footsteps, and Flamekeep holds the symbol of her sacrifice. The Keepers of the Flame have been revered spiritual leaders long before they were political leaders - and there are quite a few (largely outside Thrane) that feel it is a mistake for the spiritual leader to distract herself with political concerns. It's as the Flame spreads away from Thrane - from its heart, from the people raised on stories of the dark time and those who have seen the Fountain in Flamekeep - that it loses its focus. In Aundair, many are inspired not by Tira's sacrifice but by the memories of the Purge - by the weapon of vengeance against these monsters. In Breland, some are inspired by the actions of Templars... others, like priests of all faiths in Breland, saw it as an opportunity to manipulate the masses, and never had faith to begin with. So as the church spread away from Thrane, it began to splinter. But it's always been a stabilizing force within Thrane - a monolithic order binding people together. Hence, my take that it's the influx of outsiders, bringing their foreign interpretation of the faith, that I see as causing chaos. This further makes sense to me because the declaration of the theocracy is the logical time for foreigners to switch sides. Prior to this, there's no reason whatsoever for the Brelish follower of the Flame to take Thrane's side; it's king against king. When Thrane becomes the Kingdom of the Flame, now he has to rethink his priorities; does he put his nation before his faith? Many did just that. But I certainly imagine that many would immigrate to Thrane - and I absolutely see that as causing chaos. As long as one mixes an influx of foreigners into the situation - adding lingering national tensions as well as divergent religious traditions - I'm fine with the Convulsions. Under those circumstances, it seems impossible not to have sectarian violence until the Keeper finds some way to get everyone to push their past behind them, and to accept one another as equal citizens of the kingdom of the Flame. In any case I don't see the theocracy as being the force that unified the people of Thrane behind the church; rather, I feel it was their deep devotion to the church - built on Tira's sacrifice and the history of their nation - that made that theocracy possible. This is fine, but to become incensed over a perceived error in a fantasy gaming supplement, as some (but not many) have done, is idiotic. I'm certainly not incensed. Heck, if you add in one or two sentences about the influx of foreign followers of the Flame, not only do I think it makes sense, but it actually addresses the issue of "How did foreign worshippers of the Flame react to fighting Thrane?" I'm trying to clarify my view of the church, because that's a seemingly neverending struggle. But if anything, change two sentences, and I think this makes sense.
Paulon 06-18-07, 02:07 AM	In the Realms? Greyhawk? Ravenloft? Yes, a werewolf is always evil, a werebear is always good, and an afflicted lycanthrope can never transfer the curse. Note for the record: In Ravenloft an afflicted lycanthrope can transfer the curse, which makes a cure very difficult, since in Ravenloft it requires the death of the original true lycanthrope source of the curse first, and it can be a long chain of infections... I agree with your points about the rest, and really appreciate the insights you're providing.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:07 AM	I have to second what others have said on the thread. Not to be rude, but what are you talking about? This is an Eberron thread, explaining the motivations of the Church of the Silver Flame in a historical event in Eberron. The article that was linked was a Dragonshard - an article providing an in-depth look at an aspect of Eberron. And if you want something on paper, turn to page 250 of your Eberron Campaign Setting - under the heading Alignment is Unpredictable, it states "The Creatures of Eberron are not bound by traditional alignment restrictions." In the Realms? Greyhawk? Ravenloft? Yes, a werewolf is always evil, a werebear is always good, and an afflicted lycanthrope can never transfer the curse. But what does any of that have to do with a discussion about the Silver Flame? I was talking about how I thought you said that WoTC said that Lycanthropes were not bound by alingment via forms, which I now see you were talking about Eberron. So on that end I appologize because I didn't read closely enough. However, It still has to do with the Silver Flame though because they probably still did kill good alinged Lycanthropes in their overzealousness to protect people from a supernatural threat and I still don't see how they are really doing that when they don't bother to find out if someone is evil or not. It sounds more like an excuse to get their killing's on. Also, wouldn't that kind of indescriminate killing cause an alingment change and loss of Paldinhood for Silver Flame Paladins?
Hellcow 06-18-07, 02:41 AM	If their job is to protect from evil, wouldn't killing something that is NOT evil go against that? Don't these peole have detect evil spells? I really can't say anything about this I haven't already said. Look at my post again. Look to page 250 of the ECS. Alignment is not so clear cut in Eberron as "If he pings on detect good, he's a saint. If he pings on detect evil, kill him." The Church of the Silver Flame is fighting evil, not "that which can be sensed with detect evil." And to answer your question, no. "These people" don't have detect evil spells. "These people" are, by and large, warriors and commoners, with a handful of fighters and a trivially small number of adepts, clerics, and paladins among them. Another key point to Eberron is that divine spellcasting is rare; that the average priest is an expert with Knowledge (religion), Heal, Diplomacy, and similar skills - just like in OUR world, a person capable of tending the spiritual needs of his community. Spellcasters are truly holy people and not a dime a dozen. Yes, there were some of them in the army of the Purge, but not many. And assuming you're an adept instead of a cleric - incapable of dropping spells - are you going to prepare detect evil or cure light wounds? And assuming you don't even have the adept on hand and you're a group of four 2nd-level warriors, are you going to try to capture the werebear alive so he can be interrogated... after your greatest religious leader and the core principles of your faith have both told you that there's nothing to save, and that even if this creature is not a murderer, it is still a vector for a curse that destroys the soul? What's said in other settings is irrelevant. Faiths of Eberron spells it out: a lycanthrope is considered to be a cursed and dangerous creature that corrupts the world with its presence. Whether or not that creature pings as "good" is irrelevant. It means it's not likely to murder someone... which makes it all the more unfortunate that it has fallen prey to this terrible curse. But by FoE, the destruction of creatures like demons, vampires, and lycanthropes is a religious duty of the church; the purpose of the church is to ensure that such creatures pose no threat to normal mortals. In that instance I'd stand with a evil lycanthrope... Really? Have you really thought about what it would be like to stand alongside an evil lycanthrope? Let me refer you back to the Monster Manual, specifically page 178. Once an evil lycanthrope is fully claimed by the curse and becomes aware of his actions, "he is not compelled to murder and kill indiscriminately, but he delights in bloodshed and will certainly seek opportunities to slaughter intelligent beings, preferably those of his own race." So you'd stand by someone who not only delights in the murder of his own kind, but who can turn other people into equally vicious murderers? You can say "If it's that or we all die, I would - what's the choice?" Well, the choice is to find a cure for your condition. Try to find a cure for HIS condition, if you can. Work with those priests who ARE sympathetic - as some were - to try to subdue lycanthropes and cure them; with your powers, you've got a far easier time doing this than a 2nd-level warrior does. And if you're a natural lycanthrope and can't be cured? I'd suggest you leave. Search for a portal to Lamannia, or head for the Twilight Demesne and Thelanis. This isn't the Holocaust. It's not the Salem Witch Trials. Because the vast majority of the creatures being hunted (and remember, since they spread the curse through violence, the aggressive ones will logically BE the most numerous, because the good ones won't spread it) are vicious, remorsely killers who delight in their work. Of course, this also sets aside the point that if you're a good lycanthrope, it might not occur to you to stand by the evil lycanthrope, because YOUR behavior is influenced by the curse. And good lycanthropes aren't driven to become champions of justice; they are driven to "avoid settlements or travelers and non-natural environments." As a werebear, your instinct will be to flee from the cities, to seek out the deep woods - not go to the cities and take a stand alongside your murderous cousins. In Eberron, lycanthropy isn't a blessing. It's a curse. For those who become evil, it is something that can cause them to kill their own loved ones. Even those who become good will be driven from their old lives. This isn't like a genocide of gnomes, or any natural race; it is the elimination of a dangerous magical disease. It is true that a good-aligned lycanthrope who chooses not to spread the curse (or who is unable to do so) has done nothing deserving of death - but that's what makes this a tragedy. I'll say this again: whenever possible, nothing in Eberron is one sided. Nothing is black and white. It's right there on page 250. I find myself arguing the templar side of the Purge over and over because so many people immmediately want to make it the Holocaust or the Salem Witch Trials. It wasn't, at least not at first. It was an act that saved the lives of untold thousands, and cost the lives of many of the templars who went to Aundair to defend people they didn't know. But it was also a terrible tragedy. It cost the lives of innocent shifters who fell under suspicion. It cost the lives of good-aligned lycanthropes who would never murder innocents. There's nothing good about it, any more than burning a boatful of people carrying the Black Death because you don't have a way to treat them and can't risk them infecting others. The Purge is a dark time in the history of the Church of the Silver Flame. It got worse when the tide turned against the lycanthropes. When the weres had the upper hand, no one could argue that it was a noble struggle. Once things shifted and the newborn Aundairian zealots had taken over, it did become that bloody persecution. But remember, this was a nation that had seen thousands slain. And a world in which a single wererat, give time, could create an entire new brood and start it all again... and given that the wererat "delights in bloodshed", he'll try to do it. The people of Aundair were blinded by the thirst for vengeance, and in the process more innocents suffered; but they truly believed that unless they completely eliminated the curse, humanity itself could be doomed. In my opinion, living in Aundair during the age of the Purge would be terrifying. Anyone you knew could be a monster - even your best friend could be transformed into a killer who would take joy in murdering you. Remember the things that separate Eberron from modern day earth. Limited mass media - no radio or television to tell you what's going on. And most important, monsters exist. You know that. You know that demons are out there, that vampires are real, that your neighobor COULD be a murderous werewolf just waiting until you're alone to butcher you. @#$@ living in the age of the Purge: living in Eberron PERIOD would be terrifying. Rakshasa. Doppelgangers. Lycanthropes. Quori possession. Disguised dragons with the power to level cities. It's NOT our world, and the Silver Flame was born from that difference - to fight the forces that normal people should be frightened of. The Purge was always intended to be a terrible and seminal event in the history of Eberron. If I defend it, it's because I want people to see both sides. But for the good lycanthrope who never hurt anyone but was killed all the same? The shifters killed by panicked villagers? It was nothing but a tragedy.
Arithian 06-18-07, 02:54 AM	nvm:)
PoeticJustice 06-18-07, 03:00 AM	I'm certainly not incensed... Never meant to imply that you were, just a few others. Personally, I haven't read the passage yet, but it seems to answer a question I've had about Thrane: Why did a lawful good church overthrow the government? Why did the royalists accept it? The answer: It was strictly necessary at the time. The country was tearing itself apart like rats in a sack. If the church didn't take power and quickly, the warring factions would splinter the country into fiefdoms. The royals, in not inciting a protracted civil war, saved the kingdom from political and social implosion. I haven't read the passage, but nobody has mentioned anything about the cardinals or the keeper being involved in the wrongdoings. If this is the case, maybe they didn't want or foresee the internal strife and acted to end it as best they could. Strength through Unity, Unity through Faith? Thrane Prevails!
Hellcow 06-18-07, 03:04 AM	Also, wouldn't that kind of indescriminate killing cause an alingment change and loss of Paldinhood for Silver Flame Paladins? Perhaps. This is certainly a special case. Things to consider: 1. Paladins are extremely rare. 98% of the army is made up of NPC classes, and paladins are rarer than fighters or clerics. You can't choose to be a paladin; you are chosen. 2 I consider any paladin situation in context. Remember, Eberron is all about the fact that good people can do bad things. If a good werebear is, for whatever reason, about to kill a baby? Then I don't care if his alignment is good, the paladin is justified in stopping him. Among other things, it's also a clear and direct tenet of his personal faith. 3. So, if a paladin just sees a bear standing around, not harming anyone - or certainly, if the bear falls to his knees and begs for mercy, saying "I'm not one of these killers! I'm not like them! Help me!" and the paladin strikes the bear down without mercy or even invoking detect evil? You bet, that's a violation. Heck, in that situation, I don't care if the bear is EVIL - if he surrenders, poses no clear threat to others, and the paladin has time to confirm his story without endagnering others but chooses to kill him instead, that's an evil act. To me, it's not some magical "You hit a good person! Bam, you're screwed!" thing. It's a question of whether the paladin is clearly acting in the cause of good. Slaughtering a helpless opponent is always an evil act, whether he's good or evil. On the other hand, if that creature poses a clear threat to a greater number of innocents and the paladin acts in good faith to protect the great number of innocents - in the process, acting in direct accordance with the directives of his religion - he's OK in my book. Again, poses a clear threat is the key. Not "exists". So you COULDN'T have a paladin at the classic "torture 'em 'til they drop" witch trial, because he wouldn't stand for it. It's something that has undoubtedly caused many paladins - in Thrane and elsewhere during the Last War - to break ranks, because war is all too often a very ugly thing. Honestly, paladins are a problem for any church, because they answer to a higher power than the church leadership. They are called by the divine, not chosen by the officials. And they won't always do what you tell them to as a result. A key here is that you refer to "indiscriminate killing". That's not a very common situation here. The reason I say that it wasn't until the end days - when it was mostly the vengeful puritans conducting things - that you ended up seeing the good lycanthropes killed, is because why would you in the early days? I'm a good werebear. I have the ability to control my shapeshifting. Why would I EVER assume my bear form in the presence of others? The evil lycanthropes did it because they "delighted in bloodshed" - the motivating force for the Purge was the vast wave of bloodshed at their hands. Essentially, they couldn't resist, because the slaughter was their joy - an unnatural joy driven by the curse, not by anything rational. But if I was a bear? I'd go deeper into the woods and try to avoid the whole thing (assuming I didn't seek a cure). The paladin will never find a good werebear in a village in bear form, because what would the bear be DOING there? (With that said, one answer is "trying to help stop the evil lycanthropes", and some undoubtedly did - and that's where the tragedy part comes in.) Essentially, this has much less in common with, say, Werewolf: The Apocalypse and far more to do with Are You A Werewolf? During the age of the Purge, the typical lycanthrope wasn't an innocent nice guy; a few were out there, but never in great numbers (since they didn't spread the curse) and usually far from human habitation. Thus, the average lycanthrope the templars were dealing with was a vicious hidden killer, and every night, he'd kill again; the question is whether you can find him and defeat him before he's the only one left.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 03:09 AM	Personally, I haven't read the passage yet... It was strictly necessary at the time. That's certainly good thinking, but as I recall, it's not how it's presented. You are correct that the Keeper is NOT supposed to have encouraged the violence and simply didn't know how to rein it in. But my recollection is that it's more to the effect of "The Keeper revealed that the king had seen a vision of a kingdom of the Silver Flame" and the people latched onto it and THEN went crazy like rats in a bag, something unforeseen by the church. My point is that if the announcement drew a vast number of foreigners - which I'd expect it to - the rats in a bag situation is an extremely logical development.
Arithian 06-18-07, 03:27 AM	So you COULDN'T have a paladin at the classic "torture 'em 'til they drop" witch trial, because he wouldn't stand for it. It's something that has undoubtedly caused many paladins - in Thrane and elsewhere during the Last War - to break ranks, because war is all too often a very ugly thing. Honestly, paladins are a problem for any church, because they answer to a higher power than the church leadership. They are called by the divine, not chosen by the officials. And they won't always do what you tell them to as a result. Keith, There was another thread on these boards that kind of touched on a similar subject it was about Templars and the Law. Your above quote was very much my take on the Tempars of the Flame, though many others did not agree. What do you think? I have posted an excerpt below that I feel really addressed the overall tone of the discussion. At least in regards to my above question. The end of the matter was that me and Shady simply agreed to disagree on this particular matter because neither of us was moving from our opinion of the matter, but I am curious of your take on the matter. How do YOU see it. Whether in agreement, disagreement, or otherwise. Just generally interested in your opinion of the matter. Templar's are officially soldiers of the church. If you didn't have the proper level of commitment to the church you would not become a templar in the first place! Not an official one anyways. What sort of faithful thinks "I want to be a divine crusader for the Silver Flame, becomes a templar and then shrugs to themselves. "Maybe I'll follow orders and maybe I won't." You better believe afflicted villages got destroyed during the purge. Under orders. And this hurt innocents but it was a war and a soldier follows orders or they get executed. Religious soldier or not. The instances of a soldier disobeying a direct order would be few and far between and could happen in any army in Khorvaire. I don't see this being an acceptable or encouraged thing in the Church. I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea a commander would do their best not to give an order to their soldiers because it might offend their sensibilities or they thought they might not carry it out! So yes perhaps rarely a templar might choose not to follow an order and be vindicated in time. But that could happen in any army and could never be an encouraged or common event in a militant order. To sum up. If any templars chose to follow another nation than Thrane they were most likely honorably discharged in some manner as a templar. Or got a weird extended leave of absence. They were still loved as a faithful member of the Church but you can't have your soldier-clergy with divided loyalties. The dilemma here is the fact that they ARE a HOLY ORDER, religious Templars; Holy Warriors. Not rank and file soldiers of Thrane who may or may not have deep convictions about the Flame or its Tenets. The Templar are the embodiment of those said tenets and ideals, and I dare say that such defines them, or so they should if they truly be holy warriors of the faith. It is at this moment that the holy tenets of the Silver Flame become their first and foremost commander, for their duty is to uphold the purity and sanctity of the Flame not man. Therefore if a superior gave the order to do something directly in violation of those holy tenets I believe the true templar would say something to the effect of. "Brother, our Holy Tenets do not condone such. I will stand endlessly against the darkness, my flesh counts for nothing. I willingly sacrifice it to the Flame that it may burn everbright, but this I can not do and I counsel you brother in the sight and hearing of the Flame to reconsider your request lest you bring needless contempt upon its sacred purity." I believe a rank and file soldiers allegiance is to his superior officer, and should commands be given him that violate his conscience, unless there have been contingencies made within Thranes military laws and mandates that he may have to by those very laws and mandates be held accountable. Even if what he did was morally the right thing to do. In this matter the best that he can hope for is the mercy of the court, or tribunal, or whatever authority governs those situations. This however is not the case with a Templar. His oath and measure if you will is to the Flame and its tenets foremost, and all orders coming from his superiors should be given in accordance to such. If they are not, then it is the superior who is in contempt, and disobeying a "Direct Order"; the order of the Flame and its Holy Tenets. If this is not the case then the order is no longer Holy, but political and man made basing their decisions on their opinions and best guesses and not the unerring way and Tenets of the Flame, and if that’s the case may the Flame have mercy on them all.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 05:04 AM	So your saying a good lycanthrope could NOT live in a village of like minded lycanthropes? He's good so he wouldn't have any evil urges at all. None. Especially by Eberron rules. Not to mention if he knows of his condition he can change at will with a DC 30 shapechange check or whatever it's called. So after a while it sounds like he'd be fairly in control of himself. Your also saying good alinged lycanthropes should just back their bags and leave? They are just supposed to leave everything behind and just go away even when they retain their good alingment in any form, thus they wouldn't be a hindrance to anyone? Because some uppity Thrane says to or they will kill me? I say no. I might run away from them but I'm not leaving Eberron because some Thranian wants to shove his tyranical beliefs down my throat about Lycanthropy and how they are pretty much all evil to him. After all, I know some Drooamites who feel the same way about Thrane. Yeah I would stand with a evil lycanthrope vs. the high and mighty Silver Flame genocide. At least the Lycanthrope is somewhat of a neighbor. To the lycanthrope mind I'd bet it was a genocide. Thrane is trying to kill them all off. Sounds like genocide to me. In that kind of circumstance it's basically a war on Lycanthropes and in a war you side with people you normally wouldn't. You also didn't fully answer my question about alingment changes. It's NOT just for paladins. Any good alinged person continuing to kill innocents in the name of good would not remain good. Those who try and make exuses for their actions in the name of some holy crusade only show they aren't good because they refuse to see any bad in what they have done. It's sounding more and more to me like Eberron's alingment system is a exuse for good alinged characters to get away with murder, in some cases literally and not get a alingment change. The guy who mistakenly kills a good alinged creature should be safe (If he feels bad about it, IMO) but the guy who says "Kill them all, let god sort them out" and then proceeds to do so should change alingment no matter what his motives. I'll never allow someone to mass murder innocents for any reason and remain good. That kind of thing would taint your soul. Sorry, I don't belive whatsoever you could remain good if you continued to do that. It takes a special kind of coldness in your heart to do that. Ignorance is no protection from a alingment change ethier. You also mentioned something about both sides? Well what about the side of the Lycanthropes? I have yet to see anything about their side of it.
Archangel62 06-18-07, 08:25 AM	This might be a bit off topic but I feel that it is necessary to bring up. Everyone who looks at this should also go to Youtube and ask for propaganda and WW2, or Cold war, some of the stuff you get is absolutely VILE in terms of ignorance and racism. However, it also gives an important backdrop, much of what is said and remembered is what ran out of the propaganda mills, the followers of the Flame felt a stronger need to fight, they weren't just fighting for their nation, they were fighting for the Flame, for the faith that the so deeply cherished. That faith equaled patriotism and thus it was a major insult, a slur to call someone impious, remember what it was like during the Cold War if someone called you a communist. The reason I mention this is because the chapters I read also remind me of what I read in some old history textbooks, conceptually you aren't getting the 'facts' so much as you are getting the nations perspective. Thrane went to war technically to put its royal on the throne, but after a while they were fighting to purify the nations with their silver fire, they always had been fighting for that and they always would be, doubleplusgood.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 08:31 AM	Thalin struck me as delusional with his whole divine mandate and pretty arrogant as well. If he was on the Throne I'm sure it wouldn't have been long before there was a Purge of those who didn't worship the Flame. I've also read in Faiths of Eberron that it's said the keeper who initiated the Purge might have had other motives and I belive that whole heartedly.
Nuclear_Buddha 06-18-07, 10:10 AM	I might run away from them but I'm not leaving Eberron because some Thranian wants to shove his tyranical beliefs down my throat about Lycanthropy and how they are pretty much all evil to him. After all, I know some Drooamites who feel the same way about Thrane. Yeah I would stand with a evil lycanthrope vs. the high and mighty Silver Flame genocide. At least the Lycanthrope is somewhat of a neighbor. (Emphasis mine) Willing to protect the evil lycanthrope's "right" to slaughter and spread his disease as he likes? Feel more kinship with the evil lycanthrope who does everything you profess to abhor than you do with his innocent victims? Well, in that case, when the Thranes come for you they won't have to worry about their alignment since you won't be an innocent at all. Perhaps we're seeing just why previously good lycanthropes suddenly started turning evil and spreading the infection during the Purge.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 11:05 AM	(Emphasis mine) Willing to protect the evil lycanthrope's "right" to slaughter and spread his disease as he likes? Feel more kinship with the evil lycanthrope who does everything you profess to abhor than you do with his innocent victims? Well, in that case, when the Thranes come for you they won't have to worry about their alignment since you won't be an innocent at all. Perhaps we're seeing just why previously good lycanthropes suddenly started turning evil and spreading the infection during the Purge. Willing to stand with the genocidial Thranians who are basically just coming into Aundair and slaughtering anyone who is a lycanthrope without first finding out if they are evil or not? You even bother to read about how ignorant they were of the fact not all lycanthropes are evil? BS I wouldn't be innocent at all. I said I would stand with the other lycanthrope vs the people who are trying to kill us all of. Please show where I said I'd agree with his methods. Please show me where I also said I'd help him kill innocents. Your a idiot frankly if you can't get the fact that when people come for you and idescrimintley kill everyone like that it no longer really matters if the guy fighting besides you is evil as hell becaues you know what? He's the only ally you've got. But maybe your the kind of guy who'd turn his back on his neighbors if foreigners came and killed everyone they saw.
Syltorian 06-18-07, 11:44 AM	Willing to stand with the genocidial Thranians who are basically just coming into Aundair and slaughtering anyone who is a lycanthrope without first finding out if they are evil or not? You can turn this around as well: Are you willing to stand with the rabid Lycanthrope wo is slaughtering Aundairians, Reachers, and others (also your neighbours, and innocent at that), and who would not even care to find out if they are evil or not, even if he had the means and the opportunity to do so? If you were saying that you would organise a community of good lycanthropes and keep them safe, I would not have an issue with it. If you were trying to show the Templars the errors of their way, and perhaps even convincing one, that would be a great victory. If you could help your evil fellow lycanthrope to stop killing innocents, that's great. But by defending an evil lycanthrope, you are abetting his misdeeds, whether or not you agree with them. Granted, you do not have many other allies. So get together with other good or neutral lycanthropes, make sure that the evil ones do not mislead the templars, and show by example that lycanthropes aren't all evil. If you are standing between a templar and an unrepentant mass-murderer, you should not be surprised that the templar thinks you are evil too. our a idiot frankly if you can't get the fact that when people come for you and idescrimintley kill everyone like that it no longer really matters if the guy fighting besides you is evil as hell becaues you know what? He's the only ally you've got. But maybe your the kind of guy who'd turn his back on his neighbors if foreigners came and killed everyone they saw. Could you please refrain from name-calling? Thanks.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 12:09 PM	You can turn this around as well: Are you willing to stand with the rabid Lycanthrope wo is slaughtering Aundairians, Reachers, and others (also your neighbours, and innocent at that), and who would not even care to find out if they are evil or not, even if he had the means and the opportunity to do so? YES. Are you even reading how the Purge went? They just marched on in and started killing. Damn straight if I'm a lycanthrope I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with the evil one. In that instance I don't have much of a choice. It's get killed or get run off or be banished essentially to some place. If you were saying that you would organise a community of good lycanthropes and keep them safe, I would not have an issue with it. If you were trying to show the Templars the errors of their way, and perhaps even convincing one, that would be a great victory. If you could help your evil fellow lycanthrope to stop killing innocents, that's great. That I would do yes. But by defending an evil lycanthrope, you are abetting his misdeeds, whether or not you agree with them. Not really. I'm not abetting his misdeeds. Where did I say that I would help him? Please show me this. What I SAID is that in a time of WAR I would stand by him. I never said at any other time I would help him. But when someone marches in where I live and kills EVERYONE regardless of if they are good or evil? yeah I'm fighting back. Why is this so damned hard for people to get. If someone invaded your country you can bet cash most people wouldn't care anymore who was shoulder to shoulder with them as long as they could be counted on to fight the invaders. Granted, you do not have many other allies. So get together with other good or neutral lycanthropes, make sure that the evil ones do not mislead the templars, and show by example that lycanthropes aren't all evil. If you are standing between a templar and an unrepentant mass-murderer, you should not be surprised that the templar thinks you are evil too. Considering that good lycanthropes are rare I wouldn't have many other people to stand with. But considering the fact that the templar is ignorant and killing ANY lycanthropes he sees, mass murderor or no? Yeah I'll kill the outsider then deal with the evil lycanthrope. (Heck this very thing has happened in comics, movies, stories and probably even real life. Desperate times require desperate measures or essentially stange bedfellows.) In that instance I'd stand with whoever else was fighting because it's us against them, it doesn't matter any more if they are "evil". It's basically like one of the gypsy sayings I've heard. "Me against my brother, me and my brother against my father, us against the outsider." Or something to that affect. Take for example the last X-men Movie. Change it around and make Magneto a evil Lycanthrope who doesn't think Lycanthropes can live in harmony with others and are superior. Take the X-men and make them good Lycanthropes who think they can live in harmony with others and maybe even protect them. Then take the guys who just lump them all together and want to Purge them. If that doesn't work for you because they were curing them and you want to argue semantics of the movie, oh well. There are plenty other instances where good and evil have worked togther for survival. So in that instance you'd be forced to team up or run and hide. No one says you have to trust the evil lycanthrope. I certainly wouldn't, but I'll join forces with him for the time being. When it's all said and done if he's still alive I'm going to be dealing with him and probably kill him, run him off or try to make him see the light. It's also a pretty good RP opportunity as well. IMO I find the person who just mechanically and robotically says "No your evil you must die even if it means my own death as well", to be boring and lacking any real dynamic RP if they would always choose to kill the evil person. I'm also sure tons of DMs have used instances in which the party has had to work with a evil character because circumstances required it.
Syltorian 06-18-07, 12:36 PM	YES. Are you even reading how the Purge went? I am reading that, yes. It was, at least for the most of its time, a desperate, defensive action on the part of Aundair and the Silver Flame. It started off with a mass-surge in lycanthropy, werecreatures killing and infecting great numbers of innocent farmers, tearing families apart (literally), and sweeping deeper and deeper into Aundair. At this point, Thrane templars answered the call for defense, doing their utmost to rescue the greatest number of innocent people possible. There are more innocent farmers than innocent lycanthropes... and the more time you spent investigating, the more innocents you lose. Damn straight if I'm a lycanthrope I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with the evil one. In that instance I don't have much of a choice. It's get killed or get run off or be banished essentially to some place. I can see the argument and need to stand firm or be swept away by the other side panicking - that's more or less what I would attribute the majority of the excesses to. The soldiers of the Flame were often suffering from stress. Their choice was kill or be killed... or worse, lose your soul to the taint of lycanthropy (which even in core-rules is considered a disease). Not really. I'm not abetting his misdeeds. Where did I say that I would help him? Please show me this. What I SAID is that in a time of WAR I would stand by him. I never said at any other time I would help him. You did not say it, and you may not think about in in these terms, but it is what the consequence of your actions will be. You said that you would protect him, thus enabling him to commit further crimes. Crimes that would not have happened had you not protected him. You are choosing to accept his actions, even if only for the time being and for understandable fear of your own personal safety. I can certainly see how many lycanthropes could have acted in this way. But do you think that the parents of the next Aundair children he kills, when they get to hear that the last group of templars to try to arrest him were killed by another lycanthrope will hold that defender blameless? Their children would still be alive if the 'good' lycanthrope hadn't intervened. And they, in turn, will be reinforced in their belief that there are no good lycanthropes. I understand why a good lycanthrope would act like this, though I'd see it more in terms of neutral alignment, because he is ready to sacrifice, however circumstantially, other people's wellbeing to his own. A truly good person (and I am aware that they are fairly rare, under this definition) would try to find a way to save those of his own side who are good, while also trying to stop the massacre of innocent farmers. Letting an evil lycanthrope run free means he can go on killing people. Even if he kills only a single person before you get around to deal with him yourself, that is one person to many.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 12:43 PM	You need to look more closely. I never said I would let him run free. I said I would fight side by side with him against the genocidial thranes. THEN if his evil self is still alive after the dust clears? I deal with him. It's a temporary and very spur of the moment. and no you don't have to be neutral to team with a evil person in the face of mutual destruction. Hasn't Superman teamed with Lex Luthor before because they really needed to? Spiderman with Venom to take down Carnage? Or the best one I can think of, the US during WWII teaming with Stalin to take down the Axis powers, namely Germany. So your saying then by your logic because the US teamed with Stalin to take down Hitler that the US was abetting Stalin and all the horrible things he did? I don't think so.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 01:22 PM	Damn straight if I'm a lycanthrope I'd stand shoulder to shoulder with the evil one. Then how can you remotely consider yourself good? The man you're defending takes great pleasure in killing innocents. He's killed dozens. And the big thing? It's not even his fault. It's a curse. The man he once was would be HORRIFIED by the things that he's done. But that won't stop him from doing them. If you're truly good, why don't you try to stop him? The templars came in response to the massacres. If the lycanthropes hadn't been killing peasants to begin with, there wouldn't have been a Purge at all. I'm not abetting his misdeeds. Where did I say that I would help him? Please show me this. What I SAID is that in a time of WAR I would stand by him. Which means you're abetting his misdeeds. The war is occuring BECAUSE he's a killer, because if he's allowed to live, he will kill again. What you are choosing to do is stand by the killer who's not even truly in control of his actions against the innocents he's been killing, who are trying to defend themselves. YES. Are you even reading how the Purge went? They just marched on in and started killing. Akuma, are YOU even reading how the Purge went? That's nothing like what's happened. First, there never was a nation of lycanthropes or anything like that. The Purge dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a) is canon material. From that: Around 800 YK, the power of the curse began to grow. The scholars of Aundair sought an answer in planar conjunctions or the influence of unknown fiends, while deep in the Eldeen Reaches shifter moonspeakers bemoaned the growing power of the unseen moon. Evil lycanthropes -- always the most numerous of the shapeshifters -- became even more vicious, and many good and neutral lycanthropes were corrupted and drawn down to the darkness. Afflicted lycanthropes gained the ability to pass the curse to their own victims, allowing lycanthropy to spread with terrifying speed. By the early years of the ninth century, packs of werewolves were roaming across western Khorvaire and wererats had established warrens beneath the greatest cities of the age. Farmers lived in fear of wolves that walked like humans. What was once a superstition used to frighten children was now horrifying reality... As the death toll mounted in Aundair and Breland, the cardinals grew increasingly concerned and the templars began to take a more active role in the defense of the western lands. The battle was long and brutal. Today, many assume that the lycanthropes were hunted prey, fleeing from the overwhelming force of the Church of the Silver Flame. Little could be further from the truth. The typical wereboar is far deadlier than the average templar of the Flame, and even if the soldier defeats his prey, one good bite is all it takes to transfer the curse and create a new wereboar. Evil werewolves infected entire villages, and wererats took great pleasure in infecting templars, imprisoning them until the curse took hold, and then sending them against their former allies. Clever lycanthropes fanned the puritans' paranoia toward the shifters, and these mistrustful folk massacred hundreds of shifters before someone could prove to them that shifters did not carry the curse. While some of the shifters later fought alongside the templars, many have never forgiven the Silver Flame -- and, indeed, humanity -- for these deaths. For thousands of years, people HAD ignored lycanthropy, only dealing with isolated cases of evil and murderous weres. The good lycanthropes DID live peacefully in isolation, avoiding human communities. Then something changed - the curse grew stronger and deadlier. Many strains of lycanthrope that had previously been good became evil, so peaceful weres became murderous killers against their will. Those who were evil became even MORE murderous than before. Something deeply unnatural was going on. It's an event out of an apocalyptic horror movie, something many Aundairians cosidered to be the end of the world. And perhaps it would have been if nothing was done. It's not "first they came for the evil lycanthropes and we did nothing." It's "first the lycanthropes became unnaturally vicious and viruliant and we did nothing. Then the lycanthropes began killing people and we did nothing. THEN the templars came from Thrane..." I say again: look to the Monster Manual. There's an enormous difference between an evil human and an evil werewolf. A greedy innkeeper who cheats his custmomers may be evil. But an evil lycanthrope "delights in the slaughter of innocent beings", and thats what brought Thrane to Aundair. An evil lycanthrope will kill his own family and friends, and if he was restored to the man he once was, he'd be horrified by what he had done. It's a curse. Innocents died in the conflict. It was a tragedy. But it's nothing like what you're describing, and in the begining, the templars were the underdogs. The problem that I see is that you're trying to treat lycanthropes like mutants in the X-Men. They aren't. They aren't the product of natural evolution. They don't have normal human psyches. They are the product of a curse, and even good lycanthropes have their personalities radically altered. A good lycanthrope doesn't CHOOSE to be good, and "good" for him means something very different than it does for a paladin. He will seek to avoi harming innocents, but he also seeks to AVOID others altogether. Turn the farmer into a werebear and he won't just stay on his farm with his wife and kids, because he can't; he's not the man he once was. And THAT's why people see it as a threat. If it was just "Hey, cool, you get neat powers and you even become good!" people would be actively SPREADING it. They aren't, because what you become ISN'T what you were before. These are primal impulses that overpower whatever you were before. For the evil lycanthrope, they can drive you to kill your friends. For the good, they'll still drive you away from your friends. People WILL be afraid of you, because they don't want what has happened to you to happen to them. And because only two centuries ago, even many of the good became terrifyingly evil. Whatever you may think, in Eberron lycanthropy is a curse - even the good strains. It destroys the lives of the people who contract it, and if they are evil, it urges them to destroy the lives of others. I'm not going to argue this any further. I don't see anyone else on this thread echoing what you're saying, and I don't get the impression that you're actually fully considering what I'm saying. I find that I'm repeating myself over and over. But to summarize: The Purge began as a war fought to defend people who were being killed. This was not a one-sided combat, it was a bitter struggle to contain a curse and to STOP a wave of killing. The only way you could compare it to a witch trial is if the witches really existed and were killing hundreds of people each day. You may not like it, but that Purge Dragonshard is canon. The Purge didn't begin as an inquisition - it began as a desperate struggle to contain was truly was a serious and deadly supernatural threat.
Arcane Guyver 06-18-07, 01:29 PM	Edit: Nvm. Hellcow said what I wanted to in a much more eloquent manner.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 01:35 PM	Hasn't Superman teamed with Lex Luthor before because they really needed to? Beautiful example. Let's pick up on that. Superman has teamed up with Lex Luthor. But why does he do this? Almost without exception, it's to save innocents. It's to save the world. That's not what's going on here. Lex is killing people. Lots of them. His actions have caused the people of the world to believe that ALL metas are responsible - and he's happy to encourage this belief. The people are coming for both you and Lex because of what he's done. And it's worse. There's a disease that is infecting metas. It's TURNING them into murderous killers. Wonder Woman is out there killing people in masses. You don't know what's causing it, and you don't know if YOU will be next. What would Superman do? If he knew that at any moment HE could become a crazed killer, with his unstoppable power turned against innocents? Would he try to find scientists who weren't blinded by the horror and work with them to find a cure? Would he fly away into space before he could go mad and become an engine of destruction? Might he expose himself to gold kryptonite so he wouldn't pose a threat? Or do you think that what he'd do is stand by the murderous Lex Luthor against the normal people of the world? What if he knew that the first thing he'd do if this mysterious curse afflicted him was go and kill the Kents? Again, the Purge Dragonshard is canon. "Evil lycanthropes -- always the most numerous of the shapeshifters -- became even more vicious, and many good and neutral lycanthropes were corrupted and drawn down to the darkness." They didn't have an explanation. They didn't know what was causing this, or if it was going to get worse. If I was a good lycanthrope, I'd be terrified. Really, this is more like is Marvel Zombies than X-Men 3. Something happens that is affecting lycanthropes, good and evil. If you become evil, you will turn on the people you love. What do you do? It was a horrible event on all sides. But the key there is "on all sides". It was a tragedy for the good, and the evil can't even be held fully responsible. But it's no less a tragedy for the thousands of true innocents who were killed, and the templars who died defending them. And if nothing had been done, if could have been far worse.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 01:46 PM	Edit: Nvm. Hellcow said what I wanted to in a much more eloquent manner. Yeah god forbind anyone disagree with Hellcow. :rolleyes:
Arcane Guyver 06-18-07, 01:47 PM	Yeah god forbind anyone disagree with Hellcow. :rolleyes: What the hell? I posted something that I found fairly redundant after someone beat me to the punch. What's with this attitude?
DragoonDarkfire 06-18-07, 02:00 PM	Yeah god forbind anyone disagree with Hellcow. :rolleyes: Well the creator of the setting we're arguing over just MIGHT have a better understanding of it then you... Just might...
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:01 PM	Then how can you remotely consider yourself good? The man you're defending takes great pleasure in killing innocents. He's killed dozens. And the big thing? It's not even his fault. It's a curse. The man he once was would be HORRIFIED by the things that he's done. But that won't stop him from doing them. If you're truly good, why don't you try to stop him? The templars came in response to the massacres. If the lycanthropes hadn't been killing peasants to begin with, there wouldn't have been a Purge at all. Because I'm standing against the Thranes who are coming in like they own the place and killing any and all lycanthropes. Sorry but I say if someone comes in to where I live and kills everyone there regardless of good or evil I'm taking a stand. BTW Lycanthropes who are good don't need to avoid people at all. They dont have any urge to kill anyone because they are good in all their forms then. I see nothing anywhere that says a good alinged lycanthrope is evil or murderors at all in any of his other forms in Eberron. Which means you're abetting his misdeeds. The war is occuring BECAUSE he's a killer, because if he's allowed to live, he will kill again. What you are choosing to do is stand by the killer who's not even truly in control of his actions against the innocents he's been killing, who are trying to defend themselves. Not really. I'm simply standing with someone else against outsiders coming into where I live and deciding that we ALL must die. No I'm not. So then in your mind when the US allied with Stalin we were abetting him? Akuma, are YOU even reading how the Purge went? That's nothing like what's happened. First, there never was a nation of lycanthropes or anything like that. The Purge dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a) is canon material. From that: For thousands of years, people HAD ignored lycanthropy, only dealing with isolated cases of evil and murderous weres. The good lycanthropes DID live peacefully in isolation, avoiding human communities. Then something changed - the curse grew stronger and deadlier. Many strains of lycanthrope that had previously been good became evil, so peaceful weres became murderous killers against their will. Those who were evil became even MORE murderous than before. Something deeply unnatural was going on. It's an event out of an apocalyptic horror movie, something many Aundairians cosidered to be the end of the world. And perhaps it would have been if nothing was done. It's not "first they came for the evil lycanthropes and we did nothing." It's "first the lycanthropes became unnaturally vicious and viruliant and we did nothing. Then the lycanthropes began killing people and we did nothing. THEN the templars came from Thrane..." Yes I am. Interesting that the templars came from THRANE into Aundair. Did Aundair ask Thrane to do this? There doesnt need to be a nation of Lycanthropes. There could be a neighboorhood. Regardless if someone comes into my nation, city, town, whatever and kills everyone off; good or bad, I'm taking my stand, end of story. I say again: look to the Monster Manual. There's an enormous difference between an evil human and an evil werewolf. A greedy innkeeper who cheats his custmomers may be evil. But an evil lycanthrope "delights in the slaughter of innocent beings", and thats what brought Thrane to Aundair. An evil lycanthrope will kill his own family and friends, and if he was restored to the man he once was, he'd be horrified by what he had done. It's a curse. Innocents died in the conflict. It was a tragedy. But it's nothing like what you're describing, and in the begining, the templars were the underdogs. Eberron ignores the monster manual in terms of alingment for most monsters so why look to it. The problem that I see is that you're trying to treat lycanthropes like mutants in the X-Men. They aren't. They aren't the product of natural evolution. They don't have normal human psyches. They are the product of a curse, and even good lycanthropes have their personalities radically altered. A good lycanthrope doesn't CHOOSE to be good, and "good" for him means something very different than it does for a paladin. He will seek to avoid harming innocents, but he also seeks to AVOID others altogether. Turn the farmer into a werebear and he won't just stay on his farm with his wife and kids, because he can't; he's not the man he once was. And THAT's why people see it as a threat. If it was just "Hey, cool, you get neat powers and you even become good!" people would be actively SPREADING it. They aren't, because what you become ISN'T what you were before. These are primal impulses that overpower whatever you were before. For the evil lycanthrope, they can drive you to kill your friends. For the good, they'll still drive you away from your friends. People WILL be afraid of you, because they don't want what has happened to you to happen to them. And because only two centuries ago, even many of the good became terrifyingly evil. No I'm not treating them like mutants. I meantioned how the X-men had to team up with Magneto when mutants were being "cured". In a sense that's what would happen with a good lycanthrope teaming up with a evil one when Thrane came and killed everyone. Also, you mention a good lycanthrope can't stay where he is when right in the Forge of War there is a LN lycanthrope dwarf who is a hero of the Last War. He wasn't open about it but he didn't have to leave at all. A good alinged lycanthrope doesn't have to leave. He has no urges to commit evil at all the way it seems to work in Eberron. The problem isn't with him. It's with the ignorant people who don't understand how it works. Lycanthropy isn't a curse if you can control yourself in your Lycanthrope form and remain good alinged. It's supposed to be a curse because you lose yourself to the beast. Eberron changed that. It used to be that it didn't matter if the man was LG in his human form, when he changed into a werewolf he became CE. In Eberron, however if a good alinged lycanthrope infects you for whatever reason it has, your still good. (Which makes me wonder if you were evil and a good alinged werewolf infects you for some reason, does that make you good? It seems a bit unfair that a evil lycanthrope bites a good person and can make them evil, but not vice versa.)
Nived 06-18-07, 02:07 PM	Did Aundair ask Thrane to do this? United Kingdom of Galifar.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 02:07 PM	Your above quote was very much my take on the Tempars of the Flame, though many others did not agree. I was specifically refering to paladins. The paladin is a different and extremely rare case. Templar to paladin is something like crusader knight to Joan of Arc. The paladin has been directly touched by the divine (whatever the divine actually is). He stands apart from the church because it is clear to others that he IS holy - potentially even holier than a cardinal, if that cardinal isn't a spellcaster. He cannot stand by and allow injustice to be done. And people know that. He's likely a charismatic figure. If the church goes too far astray, people may turn to the paladin to do something about it. Even the paladin respects the Keeper and the Cardinals. These are the people sanctified by the faith. But it's still important to note that Krozen can't appoint a paladin. Only the Flame can do that, and it may choose a brave man who's already a dedicated templar... or it may choose a farm girl who's never thought of picking up a sword. By contrast, the templar is a holy warrior. He has surrendered his life to the church. He has taken vows. So yes, he's generally going to refuse to take actions that violate the principles of the faith. BUT, he doesn't have that same divine guidance. And he generally believes in the guidance of the cardinals and especially the Keeper. Essentially, he can make mistakes. So you get a divergence among the templars. You may have a particular templar order that takes the vows of compassion extremely seriously and will balk at any command to carry out a massacre or the like. But you will have others who feel that the word of the cardinals is the will of the Flame, and that it is not their place to question it. And the cardinals know which order is which. So if there is a need to take a harsh and horrible action, they'll assign an troop that's proven capable of carrying out such actions in the past. Essentially, templars are holy warriors in the service of the Flame. But unlike paladins, they aren't directly touched by the divine, and they don't HAVE to be lawful good - unless, of course, they are both paladins and templars. And certainly, it's not uncommon for paladins to join templar orders. As to the legal rights of the templars. PRIOR TO THE LAST WAR, the templars of the Silver Flame were respected as a force that fought supernatural evil across the land. As such, local law enforcement would usually stay out of their way - though if they just showed up and murdered a bunch of people, they'd at the least want a damn good explanation. When the Last War came to pass, you can bet that templars of Thrane lost this extranational power.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:08 PM	Well the creator of the setting we're arguing over just MIGHT have a better understanding of it then you... Just might... Perhaps but rules wise he's actually said that he's no expert and he didn't write The Last War himself.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:10 PM	United Kingdom of Galifar. Doesn't matter. Did they ask or not? Jarot made the decision it sounds like? That doesn't mean Aundair was behind it. UNITED STATES OF AMERCIA. That doesn't mean everyone agrees with what the President decides to do, as shown by his lack of popularity.
Nived 06-18-07, 02:12 PM	But we stopped talking about the Last War a page and a half ago. We are now talking about The Purge which took place well before the Last War which has only been written about by Hellcow and Mouseferatu (if I'm not mistaken). So he's fairly athoritative.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 02:19 PM	United Kingdom of Galifar. Exactly. The people of Aundair were extremely grateful. Again, Akuma, that Dragonshard is canon. It clearly spells it out. This was not a situation of Thranes marching in and slaughtering peaceful neighborhoods of werewolves minding their own business. Aundair was being terrorized and innocents were dying. The curse was spreading and becoming inexplicably more dangerous. Another fifty years and AUndair might not even exist, except for the handful of evil lycans who had killed everyone else. Again, it's Marvel Zombies, not X-Men 3. You can play it that way if you want. But the dragonshard is canon - and it reflects what I had in mind when I created the Purge in the first place. Shades of grey, not black and white. Tragedy for everyone involved, not simply for the lycans.
Alex_ 06-18-07, 02:26 PM	Not really. I'm simply standing with someone else against outsiders coming into where I live and deciding that we ALL must die. No I'm not. So then in your mind when the US allied with Stalin we were abetting him? Real world morality is not the same as D&D Alignment. In D&D, if you know that your kind is out there killing innocents for the fun of it, and that you may soon join them (especially if you spend more time around them), and instead of trying to distance yourself or stop them, you JOIN them, then you're Evil. Eberron ignores the monster manual in terms of alingment for most monsters so why look to it. Not it doesn't. It just relaxes or changes them in certain cases. It does not totally ignore the idea of a preferred alignment for certain creatures, especially not supernatural creatures, and Lycanthropy is supernatural. No I'm not treating them like mutants. I meantioned how the X-men had to team up with Magneto when mutants were being "cured". In a sense that's what would happen with a good lycanthrope teaming up with a evil one when Thrane came and killed everyone. The Xmen didn't team up with Magneto to save their own skin. They teamed up with Magneto to save millions of innocent lives, and tried to defeat him and take him into custody after the fact. A Good Lycanthrope who willingly defended Evil ones as they slaughtered thousands of innocents is not the same. Also, you mention a good lycanthrope can't stay where he is when right in the Forge of War there is a LN lycanthrope dwarf who is a hero of the Last War. He wasn't open about it but he didn't have to leave at all. A good alinged lycanthrope doesn't have to leave. He has no urges to commit evil at all the way it seems to work in Eberron. The problem isn't with him. It's with the ignorant people who don't understand how it works. Lycanthropy isn't a curse if you can control yourself in your Lycanthrope form and remain good alinged. It's supposed to be a curse because you lose yourself to the beast. Eberron changed that. No it didn't. It used to be that it didn't matter if the man was LG in his human form, when he changed into a werewolf he became CE. In Eberron, however if a good alinged lycanthrope infects you for whatever reason it has, your still good. No, you change to the alignment of the Lycanthrope strain. If a LG Werebear bites a CE Goblin, the Goblin will eventually become LG. The problem that led to the Lycanthrope Plague and the Purge was that this got all messed up. Even Good Lycanthropes were becoming Evil and Evil Lycanthropes were become even more Evil than they already were.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:26 PM	If lycanthropes can now be good alinged regardless of animal type AND supposedly can remain good in any form then where exactly is the danger? If they transfer it to anyone that person can be good as well. The only problem I could see is if they transfer it to a evil person. I see nothing anywhere that says good alinged lycanthropes MUST kill, maim or eat people. What am I supposedly missing then that makes good alinged lycanthropes a danger to anyone? You've not once said that good alinged lycanthopes can't control their actions in hybrid form, and I've not once seen any such info in any Eberron book or Monster Manual ethier.
Nived 06-18-07, 02:35 PM	If you had read the Dragonshard carefully you'd know the answer to that. Yes a LG werecreature can bite a evil creature and force them to be good. However one can question the ethics of taking away someone's free will. Altering their mind. LG creatures probably wouldn't like the idea of doing that. Besides that lycanthrope does follow the rules from the monster manual. Before the purge afflicted werecreatures couldn't pass on the curse, AFTER the purge werecreatures couldn't pass on the curse. However.... at the time, they could. This is a plot point. Even at the best of times evil lycathropes outnumber good ones 50 to 1. Just because evil creatures are more apt to pass on a personality rending disease purposefully. When you combine that with the fact that suddenly every lycathrope, natural or afflicted could pass it on, and good lycathropes were magically supernaturally drawn to evil. the numbers surged to literally thousands to one evil lucathrope to good ratio. With thousands more people torn apart and eaten by what used to be their family and friends. This is what caused the purge.
Alex_ 06-18-07, 02:40 PM	If lycanthropes can now be good alinged regardless of animal type AND supposedly can remain good in any form then where exactly is the danger? The danger is that whether they're Good or Evil is not a choice. You can have a strain of LG Werewolf or Wererat, but the vast majority of strains are going to be Evil. During the events leading up to the purge, even the lycanthrope strains in which Good was in the majority, began to shift, and those that were already predominantly Evil got even worse. The overwhelming majority of Lycanthropes around that time were evil, and even amongst the minority who weren't, it was possible that they could switch. If they transfer it to anyone that person can be good as well. The only problem I could see is if they transfer it to a evil person. I see nothing anywhere that says good alinged lycanthropes MUST kill, maim or eat people. What am I supposedly missing then that makes good alinged lycanthropes a danger to anyone? You've not once said that good alinged lycanthopes can't control their actions in hybrid form, and I've not once seen any such info in any Eberron book or Monster Manual ethier. It's clearly described in the Monster Manual (under Lycanthropy as an Afflication) how Lycanthropes react when they transform. They (regardless of alignment) become NPCs under the DM's control. Good/Neutral ones run off into the woods to do animal stuff, but trying darn hard to avoid civilization and conflict. Evil ones are a bit more vicious and will kill.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:40 PM	Real world morality is not the same as D&D Alignment. In D&D, if you know that your kind is out there killing innocents for the fun of it, and that you may soon join them (especially if you spend more time around them), and instead of trying to distance yourself or stop them, you JOIN them, then you're Evil. No. I said I would stand with them against the Thranes who are killing everyone, regardless of alingment. I never said I would join them and kill babies or whatever they do for kicks. Not it doesn't. It just relaxes or changes them in certain cases. It does not totally ignore the idea of a preferred alignment for certain creatures, especially not supernatural creatures, and Lycanthropy is supernatural. Not true. In Eberron Lycanthropes of any type can be any alingment. Only creatures whose very existance relies on their alingement remains unchanged. The Xmen didn't team up with Magneto to save their own skin. They teamed up with Magneto to save millions of innocent lives, and tried to defeat him and take him into custody after the fact. A Good Lycanthrope who willingly defended Evil ones as they slaughtered thousands of innocents is not the same. People who kill anyone regardless of alingment are NOT innocent. I also never said I would protect him as he killed innocents but when the Thranes come calling to kill me for being a lycanthrope I don't consider them innocent at all. No, you change to the alignment of the Lycanthrope strain. If a LG Werebear bites a CE Goblin, the Goblin will eventually become LG. Yes but a wearbear can also be CE in Eberron. Just cause he's a wearbear doesn't mean he can't be evil, by Eberron's rules anyway. So traditionally good or evil lycanthropes cannot be metagamed on alignment. It's now that most lycanthopes as a whole seem to be evil, not ALL Werewolves are evil and all Werebears are good as per the MM.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:43 PM	The danger is that whether they're Good or Evil is not a choice. It's clearly described in the Monster Manual (under Lycanthropy as an Afflication) how Lycanthropes react when they transform. They (regardless of alignment) become NPCs under the DM's control. Good/Neutral ones run off into the woods to do animal stuff, but trying darn hard to avoid civilization and conflict. Evil ones are a bit more vicious and will kill. I don't agree with any of that at all, especially in Eberron. It's also clearly described in the Eberron Core Setting how not all the alingment sterotypes apply anymore. Thus you can have a good vampire, evil gold dragon, ect. And uh no they don't regardless become under the DMs control. DC 30 Control Shape check? Make it and your good to go. Also don't lycanthropes who are born that way have greater control over their shape change?
The Dreaming Duck 06-18-07, 02:50 PM	Yes I am (reading the dragonshard). Regardless if someone comes into my nation, city, town, whatever and kills everyone off; good or bad, I'm taking my stand, end of story. No, you're not. Either that, or your reading comprehension is terrible. The article clearly states that what you've described ISN'T what happened. Yet you keep saying that it is. The section quoted in Hellcow's MESSAGE clearly states that what you're describing isn't what happened The Purge has nothing to do with the Last War. It's drawn from the ECS and from the Dragonshards. Hellcow wrote all of those. He's the one who decided that lycanthropes had been hunted down in Eberron, and why. There's no more authoritative source on this subject. There's no greater canon source than the ECS, and aside from the fact that all dragonshards are canon, Hellcow noted that this one in particular went through many rounds of discussion with WotC design. Beyond that, Mouseferatu wrote Faiths of Eberron, which clearly establishes that the church views lycanthropy as a curse and a threat to all beings. For you to continually and blindly ignore clear explanations of canon sources by the authors, including the creator of the setting itself, is frankly appalling. You like werebears. I get it. But the werebears of Eberron just aren't the werebears of other settings. They WEREN'T living in nice peaceful neighborhoods. They were killing people, and it was getting worse. Eberron ignores the monster manual in terms of alingment for most monsters so why look to it. Because the creator of the setting says to do so in a canon article approved by WotC. Also, you mention a good lycanthrope can't stay where he is when right in the Forge of War there is a LN lycanthrope dwarf who is a hero of the Last War. He wasn't open about it but he didn't have to leave at all. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Hellcow was talking about a good lycanthrope DURING THE PURGE, during a time when lycanthropes are being kand hunted! He's saying "For god's sake, get to Casablanca until things cool off." He's not saying that you could never have good lycanthropes in Eberron. You say you've read the Dragonshard. THEN READ IT AGAIN, and try to absorb it this time! While the Church of Thrane no longer follows Jolan Sol's doctrines, the church continues to hunt shapeshifters in the present day. Jaela Daran has ordered templars to subdue lycanthropes whenever possible and to accept the surrender of any lycanthrope, so that the shapeshifter can be cured or exiled to Lamannia... While cardinals and Keeper maintain that lycanthropy is a threat, rumors have spread regarding exceptional lycanthropes who have been allowed to remain on Eberron. Some say that the Church captured a werebear who had been fighting aberrations in the Eldeen Reaches, and that the Keeper of the Flame released him into the wild after hearing his tale. Some Aundairian puritans spread gossip that declares that Jaela herself is a lycanthrope; if the tales hold truth, it could be that the Silver Flame selected her to attempt to heal the damage done in its name. Between common prejudice and the need to settle things with the Church, Eberron is a challenging setting for lycanthropic PCs. But the persecuted hero who must struggle with his own dark impulses can be a fascinating protagonist, and such a character can certainly find a place in Eberron. RIGHT THERE. He's clearly stated that there ARE good lycanthropes in Eberron, that some people within the church itself allow them to act, and that THE KEEPER OF THE FLAME MIGHT BE A LYCANTHROPE. You are arguing with the creator of the setting andf not even having the decency to read what he's written. Frankly, it's insulting. It's with the ignorant people who don't understand how it works. Lycanthropy isn't a curse if you can control yourself in your Lycanthrope form and remain good alinged. It's supposed to be a curse because you lose yourself to the beast... It used to be that it didn't matter if the man was LG in his human form, when he changed into a werewolf he became CE. I'm afraid you're wrong. Let's just take a moment and look at standard, MM lycanthropy. So you're telling me that the traditional, OGL werewolf who's LG in human form is only CE in wolf form? Then look at the MM description for a werewolf and explain on thing: Why is the werewolf in human form listed as "always evil"? Shouldn't he be "Any?" I'll tell you why he's listed as always evil. It's right in the following section on "Lycanthropy as an affliction." A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes. Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope. There it is, black and white. When you're bitten by an evil lycanthrope, you MAY be able to preserve your own alignment for a short period of time. But eventually it will change. At what's been pointed out is that Eberron has thirteen moons. You're thus forced to change far more often than normal, which means more will saves, and more chances to permanently assume the lycanthropic alignment - because it's a curse. It's one thing to argue rules with a professional game designer. As you said, Hellcow's admitted that he's not a rules lawyer. But the explanation is right their in the SRD. By standard rules, any werewolf will eventually become chaotic evil in all forms. As an evil lycanthrope, he'll take pleasure in killing other intelligent beings. In a canon source, Eberron stated that the alignment was shifted to be by strain instead of by form, but that the other rules regarding alingment apply. There you have it. (Which makes me wonder if you were evil and a good alinged werewolf infects you for some reason, does that make you good? It seems a bit unfair that a evil lycanthrope bites a good person and can make them evil, but not vice versa.) If you read the posts above, you'll see that this very thing has BEEN discussed. Yes, he can. But becoming a good lycanthrope doesn't mean becoming a fine upstanding citizen. It means having your personality altered and driven by primal urges. Just as an evil lycanthrope will kill the people he loved and do things that would horrify the person he was, a good lycanthrope will be driven to abandon civilization for the wilds. That's great if what you want is to live in the depths of the Eldeen Reaches. But if you want to live in Sharn? As a good lycanthrope, it's not going to happen. Your primal, animal nature - forced upon you by the curse - will drive you to flee from this unnatural place of noise and people. You don't belong there. Not saying that as a PC you couldn't overcome this; Hellcow's already said that you could. But it would be a terrible struggle. And THAT'S why good lycanthropes DON'T go spreading the infection - because it is still a curse, still alters the original personality, and still has every chance of destroying the life of the person affected.
AntiSean 06-18-07, 02:50 PM	No you don't. Not in Eberron. You can have good werewolves or wererats, ect. If you re-read the Purge Dragonshard, you'll see that Alex_ is exactly right about strains of lycanthropy and alignment in Eberron. It looks like your hackles are raised and you're getting overly defensive because so many people are disagreeing with you at once; I'm sure lots of us have been there before. I'd recommend stepping away from the keyboard for a while until you can relax and post a bit more clearly, because right now, you're not scoring any points or presenting your arguments in the best light.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 02:57 PM	Actually duck you missed the part where it says EXILED to. You kinda can't return from a exile. That's supposed to be the point of it. So if you "went to Casblanka" you wouldn't be allowed to come back. Also not all werecreatures avoid society. What about wererats? They seem to like living in cities a lot. Thrane didn't even TRY to find a cure for these guys it sounds like. They just hacked em all up. So what if I'm still good and trying to find a cure for a friend who became evil and that's why I'm protecting him? Still going to say I'm evil?
Arcane Guyver 06-18-07, 03:00 PM	I think the biggest point being missed here in this argument is this - the lycanthropy involved in the Purge is not the same lycanthropy described in the Monster Manual. * The 'Purge version' could be passed on by the afflicted. * The 'Purge version' caused almost all the afflicted to become evil (regardless of the MM norm). * With 12 moons in the night sky, the lycans were out and about almost all the time. * Combining all the above, this strain of lycanthropy was a plague that was quickly chewing through Aundair. In fact, I might go so far as to say that a number of the innocent lycans that were killed in the purge may have been extraplanar in origin; I imagine some heard what was going on in the Material plane, crossed over somewhere in the Eldeen, and fought against the evil lycans just to be mistakenly killed by warriors who couldn't tell the difference.
Meloncov 06-18-07, 03:06 PM	I'm getting inspiration to run a campaign focused around saving the Church of the Silver Flame after the convulsions.The evil acts of members of the faith could weaken the flames bond on demons, while the players simultaneously face political intrigue as they try to direct the church in a more tolerant direction.
The Dreaming Duck 06-18-07, 03:26 PM	Actually duck you missed the part where it says EXILED to. You kinda can't return from a exile. That's supposed to be the point of it. You're not SUPPOSED to. That's entirely different from being unable to. Or are you suggesting that the Silver Flame has somehow located and gained control of all transit points between Lamannia and Eberron? What Hellcow said was that during the Purge, when it was clear what was going on, a good lycanthrope would be smart to get out to there. If he sneaks back later, lays low, and becomes a hero of the Last War - as long as no one knows, who's going to stop him? Unless guards are sent with you, exile is a form of voluntary confinement. You can ALWAYS try to return from exile. It's simply the case that if you're caught doing it, you'll have to face the consequences - which will probably be much worse the second time around Also not all werecreatures avoid society. What about wererats? They seem to like living in cities a lot. Quite true. But in that case, I'd argue that they like living in SEWERS, and the good wererat is going to have an urge to live down in the sewers with other wererats. The point is that it's a fundamental change to your personality and behavior. Initially, it only occurs in animal form and is completely involuntary. But when it becomes voluntary - when you become aware of it - those urges that controlled you during that involuntary period now BECOME your natural urges. The evil lycanthrope can now CHOOSE his targets; he doesn't have to kill the first thing that crosses his path. But he still WANTS TO KILL. Good or evil, when your alignment is "changed in all forms", you have become a different being. Your personality is now shaped by what you've become. You may have been a good baker. If you're now a good wererat, you aren't going to want to live as a baker any more; rats don't bake. And that's why the good don't spread it - because it trasnforms anyone. It's not a magic "make you nice" pill. Thrane didn't even TRY to find a cure for these guys it sounds like. They just hacked em all up. Side note: The Church of the Silver Flame, not Thrane. This occured under United Galifar, and the Silver Flame had adherants across the kingdom. It's simply that Thrane had the majority. To the main point, you're right. Because, if you ready the dozens of posts here, they've already pointed out that the odds were stacked against the templars, and that the lycanthropes were killing innocents. A bunch of warriors against a pack of werewolves isn't a fair fight. The fact that the warriors would dare to fight at all - defending people from another country, no less - is a sign of their courage. As for finding a cure, actually the dragonshard - you know, that thing you said you've read? - says that they DID make efforts. Curing lycanthropy is a difficult challenge. Natural lycanthropes cannot be cured, and an afflicted lycanthrope can be cured only if it wants to be; the shapeshifter can always choose to fail the associated Will saving throw. The first priests who sought a cure decided that it was impossible; only in the last decades of the purge did a band of more moderate and moral priests prove that it could be done. And it goes on to say that in the present day, "Jaela Daran has ordered templars to subdue lycanthropes whenever possible and to accept the surrender of any lycanthrope, so that the shapeshifter can be cured or exiled to Lamannia." So what if I'm still good and trying to find a cure for a friend who became evil and that's why I'm protecting him? Still going to say I'm evil? Is he continuing to kill innocent people while you protect him? Are you killing innocents who are trying to defend themselves from this savage creature in order to defend him? Do you have any clear plan for how you're going to cure him? As the dragonshard notes, it's not as easy as just getting a spell; he can choose to fail the save if he wants, and if he's evil, odds are he LIKES what he's become. If you incapacitate or imprison him so he can't harm others, and while he's thus imprisoned protect him until you can find a priest, and then work with the priest to cue him? Then I'd say you're doing good. In fact, you're doing exactly what the Keeper has ordered templars to do in the present day. But if you're choosing to kill innocents trying to defend themselves from him in order to protect him, then we're in a zombie movie and you're killing humans in the hopes you can somehow save your buddy the zombie.
davethebrave371 06-18-07, 03:48 PM	This is a good thread. I enjoy it.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-18-07, 04:43 PM	> They are the product of a curse, and even good lycanthropes have their > personalities radically altered. > Whatever you may think, in Eberron lycanthropy is a curse - even the good > strains. It destroys the lives of the people who contract it, and if they are > evil, it urges them to destroy the lives of others. > The point is that it's a fundamental change to your personality and > behavior. Well, there *is* an issue with these statements as far as the MM goes. These behavioral changes apply to afflicted lycanthropes, being described under "Lycanthropy as an Affliction". An afflicted good-aligned werewolf will run off into the wilds and avoid civilization. But the same isn't necessarily true of natural lycanthropes. They *often* follow that pattern, but it's not necessarily the case. The initial entry says that "Good lycanthropes tend to be reclusive individuals, uncomfortable around large numbers of people. They often live alone in wilderness areas, far from villages and towns." Tend to be, often. But not "always", even though the MM likes to throw "always"es around (and effectively does so with the afflicted ones). In their case it's something they choose, even if they lean towards a particular choice. It doesn't even address the why of this - perhaps it's simple practicality (if you have abilities like that, they're more suited to the wilderness than a city), perhaps it's something calling to them on a primal level. But it remains a choice (or at least something more complicated than is the case with afflicted lycanthropes) because not all of them do this. By the same token, a natural lycanthrope isn't considered cursed in the MM sense of it - they can cause someone else to be cursed, but only an afflicted one actually is cursed, and that's why they can be cured with spells like Remove Curse, which don't do anything to natural lycanthropes. Now, maybe Eberron has chosen to play up the "always runs off into the wilderness" to apply it to natural lycanthropes as well, and also considers even the natural ones to be cursed from a thematic perspective. But in that case it's another deliberate break with the generic setting/Monster Manual, not something which is drawn from it.
Alex_ 06-18-07, 05:21 PM	No. I said I would stand with them against the Thranes who are killing everyone, regardless of alingment. I never said I would join them and kill babies or whatever they do for kicks. Thrane was only killing Lycanthropes who threatened to kill everyone else in Khorvaire or turn them into Evil Lycantrhopes. Even the Good Lycantrhopes at the time were turning Evil against their will. Not true. In Eberron Lycanthropes of any type can be any alingment... Yes but a wearbear can also be CE in Eberron. Just cause he's a wearbear doesn't mean he can't be evil, by Eberron's rules anyway. So traditionally good or evil lycanthropes cannot be metagamed on alignment. It's now that most lycanthopes as a whole seem to be evil, not ALL Werewolves are evil and all Werebears are good as per the MM. But doesn't say anything about ratios. I can say that 99.9% of all Werebears are LG, and the the other 0.1% are a combination of the other alignments, and technically, I have Werebears of "any alignment". This is pretty much how it was during the plague, except in reverse. Most Lycantrhopes were Evil, and their numbers continued to grow, and the numbers of non-evil ones were shrinking because they too were turning Evil. In Eberron, the overwhelming majority of Lycantrhopes would kill you soon as look at you, and the one who was nice one night, would be a bloodthirsty murderer the next- and for the res of their lives. People who kill anyone regardless of alingment are NOT innocent. I also never said I would protect him as he killed innocents but when the Thranes come calling to kill me for being a lycanthrope I don't consider them innocent at all. No the forces of the Silver Flame and the angry mobs in Breland, Andair, and Thrane were not entirely innocent. However, they were more innocent than the lycantrhopes as a whole. More people were being killed than Lycantrhopes. More Good and Neutral people were being killed than probably all the Evil Lycantrhopes put together. If several hundred of innocent Lycantrhopes had to die to save thousands upon thousands of innocent people, with the other option being to save a couple hundred so that even more thousands of people would die, most Good/Neutral characters would save the greater number of lives. It would be a difficult decision to make, and they might wish they could do more, but it's the best they can do. Please read the ECS section regarding alignment again. The book says alignments are "blurred", but that doesn't mean that the alignment descriptions are meaningless. It even gives preferred alignments for the new races. Most Changelings, Shifters, and Warforged are Neutral, and Kalashtar are generally Lawful Good.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 05:21 PM	Now, maybe Eberron has chosen to play up the "always runs off into the wilderness" to apply it to natural lycanthropes as well, and also considers even the natural ones to be cursed from a thematic perspective. But in that case it's another deliberate break with the generic setting/Monster Manual, not something which is drawn from it. Yes and no. By the generic setting, a werewolf is always evil. The afflicted werewolf goes through a process which forces him to BECOME evil, but the natural werewolf is born that way. The MM doesn't say "Always chaotic evil if afflicted"; it says "Always chaotic evil". A few may resist this, as can be this case with anything (even by the MM "always" doesn't mean ALWAYS - check the glossary section on alignment), but by the MM werewolves, natural or afflicted, are evil. The initial entry says that "Good lycanthropes tend to be reclusive individuals, uncomfortable around large numbers of people. They often live alone in wilderness areas, far from villages and towns." You are right: "often" doesn't mean "always". But to me, this reflects the primal nature of the lycanthrope. It tells you want his instincts WANT him to do. A natural lycanthrope may override those instincts, but they'll still be lingering. You certainly COULD find a lycanthrope in a city - the wererat is an excellent example. In my opinion, a good wererat would be drawn to cities, but would be drawn to other wererats, and often to the shadows; the company of other humans feels inherently unnatural. A PC lycanthrope can overcome any restriction. But the primal urges are still there, and this is what defines the lycanthrope. They aren't simply humans (or whatever) who can turn into animals. They are humans tied to a powerful, primal force of nature that shapes their psychology and behavior. And for the typical good lycanthrope, this includes the desire to avoid civilization and people. The wereboar doesn't want to be a blacksmith, because smithing is unnatural. His human aspect may fight that, logically knowing how useful the tools can be - but it's going to be a struggle against his instincts, the call to return to the wild and to be around true boars. Now, this is all largely irrelevant here because it IS the generic setting. To focus on Eberron, it does specifically say that the natural lycanthrope follows the same model of behavior. A natural lycanthrope carries the curse and is shaped by it from birth. He can't be cured because it's a part of who he is; there's nothing to be restored. He's driven by those primal urges. Because they HAVE been a part of his life, he has a greater chance to resist, and thus you CAN have a good werewolf carrying an evil strain, a good lycanthrope in a city (possibly even serving as Keeper of the Flame...) and what have you. It's all in that (canon) Dragonshard: In Eberron, the alignment of a lycanthrope is not linked to her animal form. A werebear can be evil and a werewolf can be good. Lycanthropes carrying an evil strain are some of the most terrifying creatures on Eberron: While a natural werewolf may wear a human shape, she is a born predator who takes joy in spilling human blood. Those afflicted by the disease suffer a dramatic change in personality, regardless of the alignment of the victim before and after the curse. As a result, lycanthropes of all types have always been feared. Under the best circumstances, the bite of a lycanthrope means a loss of identity; in the worst, it can make a good person into a vicious killer. For an afflicted lycanthrope, this mental transformation is permanent. Even the strongest will crumbles before the supernatural power of the disease -- and only magical effects such as miracle or atonement can restore the former personality of the victim. A natural lycanthrope cannot be cured; the disease is a part of her body and soul, and it cannot be stripped away. The lycanthrope born into evil may find the strength to become good, but she will always feel the predator in the back of her mind, urging her to prey on the weak and innocent. So yes, the natural lycanthrope makes the best PC, because he has had the chance to shape his own life and make some of his own choices. But he's still a creature of primal, powerful instincts. The evil lycanthrope is a bloodthirsty killer by nature; the good lycanthrope is not a killer, but is drawn to nature and away from civilization. It may or may not be aligned with generic ruling, but it is the case in Eberron. Natural lycanthropes demonstrate the same sort of behavior as afflicted lycanthropes who have been fully converted by the curse; they simply have more experience with it and a greater ability to fight it, should they choose to. But for the evil-strain lycanthrope who wants to do good, it's going to be a constant struggle. I'll also emphasize: "Those afflicted by the disease suffer a dramatic change in personality, regardless of the alignment of the victim before and after the curse. As a result, lycanthropes of all types have always been feared." A werebear may (may) be good. A cleric of the Silver Flame may be good. That doesn't mean that if the werebear bites the cleric and the cleric succumbs, nothing has changed. He's not the same person he was before. The greedy innkeeper is evil, but he'd never murder his wife; he's greedy because he wants more money for his family. Once he becomes a wererat, he will murder his wife, unless he infects her to join his brood. Good lycanthropes may not be the monsters that evil ones are, but the transformation is just as significant... at least, in Eberron. Again, if it was an entirely good thing, everyone would be doing it - cool powers and a good-aligned society! Woo hoo! but the fact is that if you took Sharn and turned everyone into lycanthropes, a year later the city would be empty except for the wererats living in the shadows. The others would follow their instincts, which would cause them to seek climes other than the City of Towers. Natural lycanthropes can change their alignment and overcome the instincts. The good lycanthrope doesn't HAVE to live in the woods. But it's still where he wants to be, and if he has a child, the child will feel that same call. For lycanthropes, alignment is a matter of nature as opposed to nuture. As noted in my earlier post, it is a case where their alignment is shaped by an outside force. The CAN fight it. You can have a good werewolf of an evil line, or a wereboar blacksmith living in Sharn. But it's a struggle. As always, people are free to do whatever they want in their own campaigns. But the dragonshard is the canon word on the subject, and certainly reflects the view I'll be using any time I write about the subject in the future.
Alex_ 06-18-07, 05:33 PM	These behavioral changes apply to afflicted lycanthropes, being described under "Lycanthropy as an Affliction". An afflicted good-aligned werewolf will run off into the wilds and avoid civilization. Although during the plague, it was also possible for that usually Good alighed werewolf to suddenly shift to Evil against their will. But the same isn't necessarily true of natural lycanthropes. They *often* follow that pattern, but it's not necessarily the case. The initial entry says that "Good lycanthropes tend to be reclusive individuals, uncomfortable around large numbers of people. They often live alone in wilderness areas, far from villages and towns." Lycantrhopes in general were turning Evil against their will, not just afflicted ones. Once they did, they bit people, making them Evil aligned afflicted, who bit more people, and spread the plague. Tend to be, often. But not "always", even though the MM likes to throw "always"es around (and effectively does so with the afflicted ones). In their case it's something they choose, even if they lean towards a particular choice. Just because it doesn't say always doesn't mean it's something you choose. People tend to grow taller than 4 feet after reaching age 21. This doesn't necessarily mean there exists that no adult is ever under 4 feet in height, or that one's growth rate is consciously chosen. What means is that you can probably go your whole life without ever meeting more than a handful, if any adults below 4 feet in height. By the same token, a natural lycanthrope isn't considered cursed in the MM sense of it - they can cause someone else to be cursed, but only an afflicted one actually is cursed, and that's why they can be cured with spells like Remove Curse, which don't do anything to natural lycanthropes. Now, maybe Eberron has chosen to play up the "always runs off into the wilderness" to apply it to natural lycanthropes as well, and also considers even the natural ones to be cursed from a thematic perspective. No, not all. It's just that there are ENOUGH non-Evil lycantrhopes that run off into the woods, that saying this is a fairly accurate statement. Chances are, you'll never encounter the non-Evil lycantrhope that doesn't do it. And the plague that resulted in Lycantrhopes of all kind turning Evil against their will and attacking people was not a normal everyday thing. It was supernatural in nature, occured once, and only once, and at the time it occurred, this is what happened.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 05:59 PM	Doesn't Sharn have some druids in it though? Aren't druids also drawn to avoid cities and such? Not to mention PC druids are going to have to enter cities and towns so I dont think having to avoid cities should be a problem for PC lycanthropes ethier, but then PCs are usally the exception. NPCs though are a differnt matter, but don't necessarily have to follow all the sterotypes ethier. That makes for a fairly bland NPC afterall.
DragoonDarkfire 06-18-07, 06:06 PM	Doesn't Sharn have some druids in it though? Aren't druids also drawn to avoid cities and such? Not to mention PC druids are going to have to enter cities and towns so I dont think having to avoid cities should be a problem for PC lycanthropes ethier, but then PCs are usally the exception. NPCs though are a differnt matter, but don't necessarily have to follow all the sterotypes ethier. That makes for a fairly bland NPC afterall. Depends on what kind of druid you're talking about. An Ashbound will stay as far away from a large city as possible and the ONLY reason an Ashbound would be in Sharn is most likely to try and bring the city down. As such that would most likely be the case of an evil NPC. If a GATEKEEPER were to be in Sharn then that'd make more sense to me. There could be a Mind Flayer or Rakshasa in the bowels of Sharn that would need defeating to prevent the death of innocents. In this case a druid in a city would make a lot more sense.
davethebrave371 06-18-07, 06:10 PM	Doesn't Sharn have some druids in it though? Aren't druids also drawn to avoid cities and such? Not to mention PC druids are going to have to enter cities and towns so I dont think having to avoid cities should be a problem for PC lycanthropes ethier, but then PCs are usally the exception. NPCs though are a differnt matter, but don't necessarily have to follow all the sterotypes ethier. That makes for a fairly bland NPC afterall. I think the point is that all 200,000 of Sharn's citizens wouldn't miraculously become that odd-ball lycanthrope who is indifferent towards the wild if they all became lycanthropes.
Edymnion 06-18-07, 06:15 PM	Okay, I got FoW yesterday and have slowly been going through it. Have gotten mainly through the history stuff, and I have to agree with the previous posters. Whoever wrote the Silver Flame material simply did not know what they were talking about. Forced conversions, mindless witch hunts, slobbering hordes of ragtag peasant armies... they sound more like a cross between the Children of Light and the Dragonsworn (both are Wheel of Time references). Honestly, it got to the point where I was going "Oh, they're talking Silver Flame again, skip ahead a few paragraphs until they stop slandering 'em". Rest of it has been fairly good though. A little light on the post warforged battles though (one thing I was really looking forward to was using this book to flesh out my 30 year old WF's battle history, and it seems I'll have to make up most of still).
Nuclear_Buddha 06-18-07, 06:17 PM	Willing to stand with the genocidial Thranians who are basically just coming into Aundair and slaughtering anyone who is a lycanthrope without first finding out if they are evil or not? The Purge is a response to the plague. Who exactly is the aggressor here? You even bother to read about how ignorant they were of the fact not all lycanthropes are evil? Uh, that's not what the text says at all. It repeatedly notes that everyone was aware that not all 'thropes were evil. It also notes that tragedies happened because everyone was in a big hurry to make sure the massacre of innocent non-'thropes stopped. BS I wouldn't be innocent at all. I said I would stand with the other lycanthrope vs the people who are trying to kill us all of. Please show where I said I'd agree with his methods. Please show me where I also said I'd help him kill innocents. You don't have to dip your paws in their blood yourself. It's enough to know that the creature you're protecting will do it themselves. Your a idiot frankly if you can't get the fact that when people come for you and idescrimintley kill everyone like that it no longer really matters if the guy fighting besides you is evil as hell becaues you know what? (Empahsis mine.) "You're" is a contraction of "You are" and is, I think, the word you want to use there. Also, calm down. He's the only ally you've got. What about that paladin of the Silver Flame who's willing to help you escape? He'd probably make a better ally than a psychopathic murderer... But maybe your the kind of guy who'd turn his back on his neighbors if foreigners came and killed everyone they saw. Sure, make it about me, that's fine. I like to think of myself as a moral person. Sorry, but if I was living next to serial killer (my neighbor, the evil 'thrope) who enjoyed killing for the sheer joy of it, and dragging others into his murder spree by spreading around his curse, supporting HIM wouldn't even be on the menu of options. That freak is going to get whatever is coming to him. Whether or not I'm happy about leaving Eberron forever is another question all together; as a Good person, I know that he's got to be stopped before anything else can get solved. So yeah, I am that kind of guy, when it comes to homicidal maniacs.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 06:52 PM	Doesn't Sharn have some druids in it though? Aren't druids also drawn to avoid cities and such? Yes and no. A druid doesn't have a supernatural compulsion to avoid cities; it's just logical to assume that he doesn't like cities very much, because he's devoted his life to nature. But that's the point. It's back to the difference between a paladin and a cleric. A cleric chooses to worship a god; a paladin is called BY the god. A druid chooses to worship nature; a lycanthrope is touched by the primal force. Back to druids in Sharn, there's at least three druids in Sharn. But that doesn't mean they like it. There's a Gatekeeper who's there to watch for trouble; that's what Gatekeepers do. And there's a Child of Winter who's there to bring the disgusting city to its knees, because that's what Children of Winter do. You could, potentially, find a druid who is adapted to urban environments, not unlike the way a wererat is happy in a city. A druid might seek to create and tend an orchard in Sharn, seeking to bring natural aspects to the unnatural environment. And as you've pointed out, PCs can go anywhere. And other NPC druids may pass through the city on their way to somewhere else. There's certainly exceptions to everything. But most druids who choose to live in a city will do so for a reason. The Gatekeeper would prefer to be in the swamps of the Shadow Marches; but he has a duty in Sharn. The main point is that, per Eberron, the behavior of a lycanthrope is influenced by an outside force. A natural lycanthrope CAN overcome those urges, and can go against type. But it's going to feel unnatural, because he still has that primal spirit within him. When he sleeps, he'll dream of running with the pack in the wild. It's a part of him. It's a part he may have the strength to ignore, but it will be there nonetheless.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 06:53 PM	If a GATEKEEPER were to be in Sharn then that'd make more sense to me. There could be a Mind Flayer or Rakshasa in the bowels of Sharn that would need defeating to prevent the death of innocents. A MIND FLAYER in Sharn? Or rakshasa? Don't be ridiculous. Now you're just fearmongering. ;) But yes, this sort of thing is exactly why there's a Gatekeeper in Sharn.
Hellcow 06-18-07, 07:52 PM	It's now that most lycanthopes as a whole seem to be evil, not ALL Werewolves are evil and all Werebears are good as per the MM. People have said this before, but I'll try to say it one more time. You are correct: in Eberron, most lycanthropes are evil. This is because lycanthropy is an infectious curse (even if in the present day it can only be transmitted by natural lycanthropes). It is something that substantially alters the personality of the victim, whatever alignment is under discussion. As such, if you're a good person, you're most likely going to avoid spreading the curse if at all possible. Evil lycanthropes, on the other hand, delight in bloodshed and killing others of their own race. To begin with, since the curse is spread by violence, violent behavior is more likely to cause accidental infection (if the victim escapes). Second, the lycanthrope is more likely to infect others in order to gain allies in his efforts. Beyond this, you have the fact that during the Purge, an unknown magical force twisted many of the lycanthropy strains, turning lycanthropes who had originally been good to an evil path. So, on Eberron, most lycanthropes and especially most afflicted lycanthropes are evil - because evil lycanthropes are most likely to spread the affliction. On Lamannia, on the other hand, you may find considerable numbers of good and neutral lycanthropes. One of the many theories on the origin of lycanthropy is that the first lycanthropes came from Lamannia. The reason you have more evil lycanthropes on Eberron is because they spread the curse to others; in Lamannia you're just dealing with the natural populations, further bolstered by those who left Eberron. So yes, in Eberron, most lycanthropes are evil. There are good and neutral ones, as described in the Forge of War and the "Lycanthropy in the Modern Age" section of the Purge dragonshard; I don't have time to look, but I'm sure others have been mentioned in other sourcebooks. But their numbers are small precisely BECAUSE they are good and neutral, and thus seek not to spread the curse. I know at least one example has been given of a shifter village whose inhabitants have acted to hide and protect a good lycanthrope. A few points there: They know him. He's lived among them for decades; they know he's not a killer. While they like and protect him, they haven't asked him to infect THEM. And they wouldn't do the same thing for an evil lycanthrope, because evil lycanthropes "enjoy killing intelligent creatures, especially members of their own race"; if the werewolf was in town, either people would be dying, or people in the neighboring town would be dying. You MIGHT get villages harboring evil lycanthropes and, say, feeding them tourists (like the Cultists of the Dragon Below who feed unexpected guests to the gibbering mouther in the basement)... but now they are abetting in its actions. Today, many realize that there are noble lycanthropes, hence the current directive of the Keeper. But the Purge was a period of fear driven by terrible bloodshed and by an unknown magical disaster. People STILL don't know what caused the transformation, but they fear that it could happen again. As I said, much of the fervor of the Aundairian zealots is fueled by the lists and images of family members killed by lycanthropes. Again, the core element of the Silver Flame is "defending the innocent against the unnatural." In Thrane, the faith took root because of the defeat of a demon lord who would have destroyed the nation if not for Jaela's sacrifice; however, it was inspired by her sacrifice. In Aundair, it was later fueled by another incident of supernatural terror that threatened to destroy a nation - but here the incident was spread over a far longer periord, and the adherents were driven by their desire for revenge, not by that example of sacrifice. But it works on both side. A good werewolf may be able to tell you how the other members of his pack were killed in the Purge. But the Aundairian farmer can tell you how half of his extended family was killed BEFORE the Purge. And that is the final point. What I've said over and over (and over) is that this isn't black and white. Akuma, you say that the templars couldn't be good if they killed an innocents. Aside from all the arguments that have already been made... the Keeper's edict, the fact that lycanthropes are considered to be "unnatural", the need to focus on the needs of the many over those of the few, the chaos of war... You're absolutely right. Killing innocents is an evil thing. The Silver Flame killed innocents in the Purge, which is WHY it's always been seen as a black spot on the record of the church. But they were trying to stop the actions of a group killing far MORE innocents. It wasn't a purely good act. It wasn't a purely evil act. It was a situation with no easy answer. Subduing all lycanthropes and trying to cure them was simply impossible. Subduing ANY lycanthrope was a dangerous act, when one bite was all it took to spread the curse. And the lack of large numbers of clerics or even certain knowledge if a lycanthrope could be cured (can you tell a natural or afflicted lycanthrope apart by looking at them?) played a further role. Today the Keeper HAS demanded that the templars act in a more humane manner (though many Aundiarian templars ignore this). But the actions of the Purge were desperation in a time of war. Later atrocities were driven by a hunger for vengeance. But the templars didn't start this war; the deaths began long before they arrived. I won't even blame the lycanthropes. It was the curse and it's mysterious rise in power that caused their behavior... but that behavior resulted in the deaths of innocents. Before the templars came, it was innocent humans (and gnomes and shifters et al) dying; once they arrived, good lycanthropes got added to that list of innocents. It was a time of horror on all sides. The only thing that can be said with any surety is that what the Silver Flame did brought it to an end.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-18-07, 08:13 PM	> Yes and no. > > By the generic setting, That's kind of the issue, though. Eberron breaks with the generic setting/Monster Manual description of lycanthropes on more behavioral points than just alignment; as such, it's kind of problematic to then cite "that's the way the Monster Manual describes them" when talking about how they act. It just gets worse when the cite doesn't actually say the thing in question. ;) I'm fine with the Eberron take on lycanthropes and frankly find it more interesting than the generic setting approach. I also find that the Forgotten Realms take on them, which also throws several of the Monster Manual ideas (alignment and other matters) out of the window. The trouble is that Akuma seems to feel (both in this thread and others) that anything written in the Monster Manual is set in stone and inviolable, trumping all setting-specific ideas on the subject.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-18-07, 08:27 PM	Going back to the other subject... I've only had a chance to glance through Forge of War thus far (having just got back from the game store). I certainly concur with the general disapproval of the way the CotSF was portrayed in that bit. It does seem that the CotSF gets every negative stereotype about organized religion slapped on it, perhaps because it's an easy target both by virtue of the language associated with it (as soon as you use Catholic-sounding terminology like the rank titles, you're going to get comparisons being drawn), but perhaps also because it's the only one which comes across as actually being all that organized, and thus the only likely candidate when someone wants to have an "organized religion did something bad at this time" entry in a book. The Sovereign Host faith is far too amorphous despite being dominant in most places, the Dark Six faith and the Blood of Vol are obviously not in control in most places and are secretive rather than state institutions besides, and the druidic faiths are even less well structured despite being dominant in the Reaches. I suppose that you could look to the Undying Court as an organized faith comparable to the Silver Flame, but it hasn't received anywhere near as much coverage (being tangential to Khorvaire probably has something to do with that) and in some ways it's just too weird to associate real-world stereotypes with. Plus, I suppose, you have the problem that in the case of the Flame, someone can plausibly say that the Flame inspired them to such-and-such or that the Flame wants things to be thus-and-so, and it's hard to prove or disprove it, whereas if you start claiming things in the name of the Undying Court it's not too hard for someone to go ask the source.
DragoonDarkfire 06-18-07, 08:33 PM	A MIND FLAYER in Sharn? Or rakshasa? Don't be ridiculous. Now you're just fearmongering. ;) Oh yes. Reminds me of that stupid novel about Sharn that ended in a battle with a mind flayer. Who wrote that crappy book anyway?
Hellcow 06-18-07, 08:59 PM	It does seem that the CotSF gets every negative stereotype about organized religion slapped on it, perhaps because it's an easy target both by virtue of the language associated with it (as soon as you use Catholic-sounding terminology like the rank titles, you're going to get comparisons being drawn), but perhaps also because it's the only one which comes across as actually being all that organized, and thus the only likely candidate when someone wants to have an "organized religion did something bad at this time" entry in a book. All good points. Honestly, if I were to do it all over again, I'd completely change all of the titles; "cardinal" (along with puritan, templar, etc) does automatically lead people down the wrong path. And as you say, it IS the only MAJOR organized religion in Khorvaire, making it easy to draw fire. Likewise, the fact that we said that it has issues with corruption - something I wanted to make it more than the two-dimensional "good guy" group - has caused many to assume that it's nothing BUT corrupt, whereas in fact that, like the zealots, is a small aspect of what is by and large a force for good. And corruption can be found in all faiths; as I've said before, the Order of the Emerald Claw is essentially a corrupt form of the BoV, taking advantage of the faithful to accomplish goals that have nothing to do with the faith.
Edymnion 06-18-07, 09:18 PM	Oh yes. Reminds me of that stupid novel about Sharn that ended in a battle with a mind flayer. Who wrote that crappy book anyway?Psst.. Look behind you, I think the line is back there. Or, as John Wayne said, "Smile when you say that."
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 09:18 PM	> Yes and no. The trouble is that Akuma seems to feel (both in this thread and others) that anything written in the Monster Manual is set in stone and inviolable, trumping all setting-specific ideas on the subject. If you bothered to read my posts you would indeed see that I say "In Eberron", and then go on to say that Lycanthropes can be any alingment regardless of if he's a werewolf, werebear, wererat or any other lycanthrope.
DragoonDarkfire 06-18-07, 09:26 PM	Psst.. Look behind you, I think the line is back there. Or, as John Wayne said, "Smile when you say that." Well if you're gonna be quoting a western star I'll reply appropriately. "Que?"
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 09:33 PM	Uh, that's not what the text says at all. It repeatedly notes that everyone was aware that not all 'thropes were evil. It also notes that tragedies happened because everyone was in a big hurry to make sure the massacre of innocent non-'thropes stopped. Dude you just said what I said only differently. It also says actually a lot of them assumed all thropes were evil due to ignorance and the fact that thropes ressemble Rhaksasha in a way. Ignorance doesn't save you from a alingment change should you kill any innocents. Considering these oversealous people also killed shifters who weren't evil or obviously, not lycanthropes, they are headed for a alingment change regardless of motive. (Empahsis mine.) "You're" is a contraction of "You are" and is, I think, the word you want to use there. Also, calm down. If you want to prove a point, provide a counter argument, not correct my grammar. This isn't a english class pal. You correcting my grammar is pretty much the same thing as my name calling, both shouldn't really be done and I appologize for the name calling. What about that paladin of the Silver Flame who's willing to help you escape? He'd probably make a better ally than a psychopathic murderer... Not when he's running his sword through any thrope he see's he's not. Sure, make it about me, that's fine. I like to think of myself as a moral person. Sorry, but if I was living next to serial killer (my neighbor, the evil 'thrope) who enjoyed killing for the sheer joy of it, and dragging others into his murder spree by spreading around his curse, supporting HIM wouldn't even be on the menu of options. That freak is going to get whatever is coming to him. Whether or not I'm happy about leaving Eberron forever is another question all together; as a Good person, I know that he's got to be stopped before anything else can get solved. It's sad that this is the kind of people living in the world today. Too hung up on the guy next to them to fight when someone else comes in and kills everyone in sight. Sure this wasn't a "offical war" at least not to Khorvaire as a whole but to the shifters it was. If I'm living out in the woods by myself as a lycanthrope and someone comes and kills off all lycanthropes, affected or not and isnt giving me much a choice I'm fighting. It's called self defense pal and it doesn't make you evil. Maybe I'm not making myself clear. The scenario I'm describing is where I have NO time to say "I'm not with him." Thranians come in and kick down my door essentially and have drawn swords on me and even if I'm not in hybrid form they somehow know I'm a lycanthrope. If the only option I have for survival is to kill these guys because they are zealots and the only other lycanthrope around is evil, so be it. Good wants to survive just as much as evil does. I don't agree whatsoever with you and others saying if I fight alongside him I'm evil too. I'm not sick or infected but the Thranians/Silver Flame aren't listening. I'm killing them in self-defense. I don't consider that type of thing evil. I'm suppossed to belive none of you would stand shoulder to shoulder with say a drug dealer if some zealot type people just came into where you lived and killed everyone who they felt was infected, regardless of if they are or not. Even if most of you were infected I'm still thinking the none infected are going to fight with the infected should no other choice come up? Let me stiffle my bs cough on that one. Lastly as people keep saying with lycanthropes "Evil ones are compelled to kill." So if the evil ones are supernaturally compelled to kill for bloodlust wheather they want to at the time, what's the Silver Flame's excuse on purging entire areas and basically being just as bloodthristy? "We didn't know some could be good". just doesn't cut it. "We were following orders." Heard that one before. (WWII and Germany) "Our religion told us to." Heard that one before too. (Crusades anyone?) BTW I'm sure some of those Lycanthropes aren't adults you know. Yes I know the evil Lycanthropes probalby killed kids too but they are supernaturally compelled to do so, not all evil alingments are baby killers or pyshco mass murder's. The Silver Flame had a choice to spare people and they pretty much didn't the vast majority of the time. The people who did the sparing were those who were knowledgeable to know not all lycanthopes are evil but sadly they were few and far between and it seems most of them didn't learn about good lycanthropes or cures till the Purge was in full swing.
Mouseferatu 06-18-07, 10:27 PM	All good points. Honestly, if I were to do it all over again, I'd completely change all of the titles; "cardinal" (along with puritan, templar, etc) does automatically lead people down the wrong path. And as you say, it IS the only MAJOR organized religion in Khorvaire, making it easy to draw fire. Likewise, the fact that we said that it has issues with corruption - something I wanted to make it more than the two-dimensional "good guy" group - has caused many to assume that it's nothing BUT corrupt, whereas in fact that, like the zealots, is a small aspect of what is by and large a force for good. And corruption can be found in all faiths; as I've said before, the Order of the Emerald Claw is essentially a corrupt form of the BoV, taking advantage of the faithful to accomplish goals that have nothing to do with the faith. Honestly, Keith, this is one place I'm going to disagree with you. I like the use of Catholic-based titles. It provides a solid and familiar starting point, and there are many similarities between the two Churches. (Many differences as well, of course, but...) I think it adds an element of verisimilitude that would otherwise be lacking. That's actually why I kept many Catholic Church titles for the Empyrean Church in my Ravenloft novel. There are many differences between the Church, but as there are many similarities as well, the use of those titles provides an easy bridge for the reader to make the appropriate associations. The book can then, as need arises, point out where things are different. It's far easier, and more interesting, to describe how something differs from a familiar baseline than describing how it's similar to the familiar. IMO, at least.
Arithian 06-18-07, 10:43 PM	I was specifically refering to paladins. The paladin is a different and extremely rare case. Templar to paladin is something like crusader knight to Joan of Arc. The paladin has been directly touched by the divine (whatever the divine actually is). He stands apart from the church because it is clear to others that he IS holy - potentially even holier than a cardinal, if that cardinal isn't a spellcaster. He cannot stand by and allow injustice to be done. And people know that. He's likely a charismatic figure. If the church goes too far astray, people may turn to the paladin to do something about it. Even the paladin respects the Keeper and the Cardinals. These are the people sanctified by the faith. But it's still important to note that Krozen can't appoint a paladin. Only the Flame can do that, and it may choose a brave man who's already a dedicated templar... or it may choose a farm girl who's never thought of picking up a sword. By contrast, the templar is a holy warrior. He has surrendered his life to the church. He has taken vows. So yes, he's generally going to refuse to take actions that violate the principles of the faith. BUT, he doesn't have that same divine guidance. And he generally believes in the guidance of the cardinals and especially the Keeper. Essentially, he can make mistakes. So you get a divergence among the templars. You may have a particular templar order that takes the vows of compassion extremely seriously and will balk at any command to carry out a massacre or the like. But you will have others who feel that the word of the cardinals is the will of the Flame, and that it is not their place to question it. And the cardinals know which order is which. So if there is a need to take a harsh and horrible action, they'll assign an troop that's proven capable of carrying out such actions in the past. Essentially, templars are holy warriors in the service of the Flame. But unlike paladins, they aren't directly touched by the divine, and they don't HAVE to be lawful good - unless, of course, they are both paladins and templars. And certainly, it's not uncommon for paladins to join templar orders. As to the legal rights of the templars. PRIOR TO THE LAST WAR, the templars of the Silver Flame were respected as a force that fought supernatural evil across the land. As such, local law enforcement would usually stay out of their way - though if they just showed up and murdered a bunch of people, they'd at the least want a damn good explanation. When the Last War came to pass, you can bet that templars of Thrane lost this extranational power. Thanks Keith, for taking the time out to share that with me it is indeed much appreciated.:tiphat: Sincerely, Arithian
Alex_ 06-18-07, 10:49 PM	But the Silver Flame wasn't supposed to make you think of the Catholic Church. It was supposed to make you think of a fictional faith called the Silver Flame, where people are devoted to protecting innocents from supernatural evils, but the fact that the world and people aren't perfect make this noble effort difficult. If anything, from much of how the Silver Flame is described, it's probably the closest Eberron has to a honestly "Good" and virtuous organization. But many players already have a relatively unfavorable views of organized faiths, especially considering the bad reputation D&D and pretty much all fantasy related gaming and related hobbies endured, and continue to endure in some places. But by using Catholic terminology, people instantly associate it with Christianity, and more specifically, Catholicism, which perhaps is even less popular amongst many Americans than protestant faiths. It can detract from the campaign, when DMs and players attempt to use Thrane and the Silver Flame as analogies for their own views on Catholicism or organized faith, while ignoring published material, inventing new material to reinforce the Catholic stereotypes, or even changing published material to make the Silver Flame less like it is in the book, and more like how they see those real world faiths.
Euangelion 06-18-07, 11:19 PM	Holy cr*p!! I'm gone for two days, and this is what I come back to. Some other author has jumped onto the "lets make the SF as evil as possible" bandwagon, and now it's in a sourcebook. Great. Just bleepin' great. By the way, that whole discussion did bring up a philosophical disagreement I had with a point in the SF chapter of FoE, regarding the use of raise dead and resurrection spells by followers of the SF. If one goal of the SF is to recruit more souls, wouldn't it make sense for followers of the SF who are powerful enough to try to win back souls from Dolruhh? If they do come back, obviously they wanted to, and would probably be so grateful to the power of the SF as to devote their second life to serving it? In other words, shouldn't SF cleric be trying to raise non-SF dead at the request of friends/family left and right? And finally, I can't believe the whole Purge stuff came up again, and that there's people who still don't get it. Hmmm, here's an extra hint on what really happened: the Esoteric Order of Aureon battled the lycans right alongside the CotSF. (Sharn: City of Towers, page 146) Wow, you mean that other groups besides the CotSF partipated in the Purge? Yes, yes they did, and for good reason. It needed to be done.
Nuclear_Buddha 06-19-07, 12:17 AM	Dude you just said what I said only differently. It also says actually a lot of them assumed all thropes were evil due to ignorance and the fact that thropes ressemble Rhaksasha in a way. Ignorance doesn't save you from a alingment change should you kill any innocents. Considering these oversealous people also killed shifters who weren't evil or obviously, not lycanthropes, they are headed for a alingment change regardless of motive. Their ignornance doesn't invalidate the fact that evil 'thropes are more likely to spread the curse and thus most 'thropes will be evil. Also, that alignment thing goes both directions. If you want to prove a point, provide a counter argument, not correct my grammar. This isn't a english class pal. You correcting my grammar is pretty much the same thing as my name calling, both shouldn't really be done and I appologize for the name calling. I had no point to prove there; you were the one calling me the idiot. I was helping you out. Thank you for the apology. Not when he's running his sword through any thrope he see's he's not. But you see, he's not. If he's actually a paladin, he's going to do the right thing. We have textual examples of paladin's helping good-aligned 'thropes escape. It's sad that this is the kind of people living in the world today. Too hung up on the guy next to them to fight when someone else comes in and kills everyone in sight. I'm sorry you feel this way. Where I come from, people turn in murderers, not take their side. Sure this wasn't a "offical war" at least not to Khorvaire as a whole but to the shifters it was. If I'm living out in the woods by myself as a lycanthrope and someone comes and kills off all lycanthropes, affected or not and isnt giving me much a choice I'm fighting. It's called self defense pal and it doesn't make you evil. Maybe I'm not making myself clear. The scenario I'm describing is where I have NO time to say "I'm not with him." Thranians come in and kick down my door essentially and have drawn swords on me and even if I'm not in hybrid form they somehow know I'm a lycanthrope. If the only option I have for survival is to kill these guys because they are zealots and the only other lycanthrope around is evil, so be it. Good wants to survive just as much as evil does. If you're suspected of murder, it's not a good idea to prove your accusers right by killing someone. Better to run away. You're faster and tougher than the guys coming for you. What good does slaughtering them do? Some of them may be evil, but some of them just scared, others doing what they think is right. Probably all of them have family waiting for them at home (those whose families aren't murdered by your evil kin). Why play the savage beast for them? If you're really a good guy, Good with a capital G, take the high road. Clear out. That way you get to survive, and you don't kill anyone innnocent either. That part about not killing innocents is important to note. As much as you like to paint them as a pack of deranged murderers, the Thranes were not uniformly evil. They might have to face an alignment shift for what they do but so would you. I don't agree whatsoever with you and others saying if I fight alongside him I'm evil too. I'm not sick or infected but the Thranians/Silver Flame aren't listening. I'm killing them in self-defense. I don't consider that type of thing evil. They're acting in self defense, too. They may have the wrong guy in your case, but they don't know that. You kill them, you're killing some good guys among the evil. They kill you, they're killing a good guy. This is why this situation is a tragedy, rather than some kind of clear-cut "evil Thranes" nonsense. Better to avoid the fight. I'm suppossed to belive none of you would stand shoulder to shoulder with say a drug dealer if some zealot type people just came into where you lived and killed everyone who they felt was infected, regardless of if they are or not. I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't. This is not like the FBI and the mobsters fighting the Nazis together at the end of Rocketeer, defending Mom and apple pie from the Krauts. This defending Hannibal Lector just because you kinda look like him (and you know he's enjoying this a lot more than you are). Even if most of you were infected I'm still thinking the none infected are going to fight with the infected should no other choice come up? Let me stiffle my bs cough on that one. Lastly as people keep saying with lycanthropes "Evil ones are compelled to kill." So if the evil ones are supernaturally compelled to kill for bloodlust wheather they want to at the time, what's the Silver Flame's excuse on purging entire areas and basically being just as bloodthristy? "We didn't know some could be good". just doesn't cut it. "We were following orders." Heard that one before. (WWII and Germany) "Our religion told us to." Heard that one before too. (Crusades anyone?) BTW I'm sure some of those Lycanthropes aren't adults you know. Yes I know the evil Lycanthropes probalby killed kids too but they are supernaturally compelled to do so, not all evil alingments are baby killers or pyshco mass murder's. The Silver Flame had a choice to spare people and they pretty much didn't the vast majority of the time. The people who did the sparing were those who were knowledgeable to know not all lycanthopes are evil but sadly they were few and far between and it seems most of them didn't learn about good lycanthropes or cures till the Purge was in full swing. No one is arguing that the Purge didn't kill some innocents. It was a tragedy in that respect. What I object to is your insisence that it was a clear-cut genocide by evil nasty humans against flowers-and-lullabies lycanthropes. The official texts simply don't support that kind of interpretation. You can certainly run it like that in your game, but the general consensus around here doesn't agree so much.
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 01:10 AM	I never said they only killed innocent lycanthropes, I'm saying they lumped them all together and to me that's still evil and I don't consider fighting for my survival to be evil at all. If that's true then wouldnt the characters in Pirates of the Carribean be evil? Sparrow, Swan AND Turner all killed rank and file soldiers who were told THEY were the badguys did they not? I see it more as a bunch of sick people in a town that is quarantined off by the government and sick or not they dont let you out thus you have to fight with the sick dudes, at least at first, to make your escape, then you could leave them to die. I also see it as somewhat more evil and cowardly to turn your back on fellow lycanthropes who might not have been evil to begin with but were affected by whatever this super curse is. So if my own child becomes a murderor because of the lycanthrope thing during the Purge I'm NOT supposed to protect my kid with lethal force? Forget that. I don't care. I'm running through ANYONE who touches the kid. Maybe that's why I perfer neutrals to good. I've also seen lots of example of good working with evil, even in a case of wrong place wrong time like this. So I will probably agree to disagree about this whole thing.
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 01:15 AM	I'll add I don't see the Sliver Flame as all evil. Some are misguided zealots who take things too far. Any relgion can have those, though I do wonder why there aren't as many stories about atrocities commited by the Soverign Host? It seems a bit one sided to me. Also sorry, but the Christian faith did do a few bad things, Witch Trials, Crusades,ect. People who can accept that those things happend but that they learn from it are better off than those who try to ignore or deny it happened. I accept that not everyone of any relgion is a bunch of jerks. It's just hard to remember that when the jerks stand out so much more than the nice people. Even Buddhists have their intolerant's. ( bring them up because they seem to be the sterotype of calm and peacefullness in relgion.) White Lotus anyone? I belive that's what they are called anyway. Those were the dudes who gassed that subway?
DBlizzard 06-19-07, 01:16 AM	All good points. Honestly, if I were to do it all over again, I'd completely change all of the titles; "cardinal" (along with puritan, templar, etc) does automatically lead people down the wrong path. And as you say, it IS the only MAJOR organized religion in Khorvaire, making it easy to draw fire. Likewise, the fact that we said that it has issues with corruption - something I wanted to make it more than the two-dimensional "good guy" group - has caused many to assume that it's nothing BUT corrupt, whereas in fact that, like the zealots, is a small aspect of what is by and large a force for good. Honestly, I always thought the "corruption in the church" bits were to ease the introduction of Cardinal Richelieu types. Gamers often forget that to put emphasis on the evilness of those types you need the church to be good for the proper contrast. I think the focus on "the church is corrupt" is more a reflection on the POV of many of the gamers and gamer culture.
Mouseferatu 06-19-07, 01:33 AM	Honestly, I always thought the "corruption in the church" bits were to ease the introduction of Cardinal Richelieu types. Gamers often forget that to put emphasis on the evilness of those types you need the church to be good for the proper contrast. I think the focus on "the church is corrupt" is more a reflection on the POV of many of the gamers and gamer culture. Yeppers. :) Which is why I tried not to focus too much on the corrupt elements in FoE.
Hellcow 06-19-07, 01:37 AM	Honestly, Keith, this is one place I'm going to disagree with you. I like the use of Catholic-based titles... I think it adds an element of verisimilitude that would otherwise be lacking. And that's why it was done in the first place - to provide a touchstone. A starting point. The problem is that many people grasp the similarities and fail to see the many differences. The key point to me is that, in my opinion, the Church of the Silver Flame is a religion that couldn't exist (in its current form, at least) in our world. It is a religion founded around defense against demons and things that go bump in the night in a world FILLED with things that go bump in the night. It's a cross between the Jedi Knights and the Men in Black. Thus we get people focusing on smiting the unbeliever, crusades, etc because in OUR world, that's what the Catholic church did. But the Silver Flame has far more serious and frightening things to deal with. Plagues of lycanthropes, for example. Armies of undead. Demon lords. We can't imagine a religion based around fighting these things because we don't live in a world filled with them. But that's what Eberron is - a world where a demon lord COULD rise up at any time and shatter your kingdom. And most of the time, that IS what the templars are supposed to be doing (albeit in smaller units than we see in Aundair). Eberron is a world of monsters... why do you think you DON'T see them in the civilized areas? That's the work of centuries of patrols and hunts. Hence that point - the templars weren't agents of the LAW, but they were recognized across Galifar as champions defending the common folk from unnatural forces. That's not to say that you can't get sectarian violence, actual crusades or the like; it is still a religion, and it's got internal and political issues like any organization. Again, once you throw foreigners into the mix, I'm fine with the Convulsions. But people need to recognize that the Silver Flame has a foe our crusaders never had to deal with. "The fight against supernatural evil" isn't some theoretical, philosophical thing, the work of a handful of exorcists. In Eberron, it's a real, serious battle. Sometimes it's REALLY bad, like the Purge. But most of the time it's just a matter of patrolling the haunted forests, hunting down a pack of raiding harpies, or the like - a constant, long term struggle. All the while the ministers seek to counter human evil with good works and inspiration. But the war against supernatural evil is a real, physical, never-ending one for the church, only made worse by the Mourning and the monsters that are emerging from that land. This has nothing to do with the titles - it's just something people should remember when dealing with the church. Not only are they not a religion of our world, they are a religion of a world very different from our own - a world filled with hidden dragons, ancient demons, bloodthirsty vampires, murderous werewolves, and so on. The Overlords are like time bombs waiting to go off. It's a scary place - and the curch offers strength to those who choose to fight these forces, and promises a better fate than Dolurrh for those who risk the fight. Hmmm, here's an extra hint on what really happened: the Esoteric Order of Aureon battled the lycans right alongside the CotSF. (Sharn: City of Towers, page 146) Wow, you mean that other groups besides the CotSF partipated in the Purge? Yes, yes they did, and for good reason. It needed to be done. Yup. You can bet holy warriors of Dol Arrah were in on the action as well... not to mention local militias, and, for that matter, shifters. The templars were the largest, most organized force because it's exactly the sort of situation they were created to deal with. But it was a situation that posed a threat to Galifar, or would in time, and it wasn't like the other champions of the light were going to ignore it.
Hellcow 06-19-07, 01:38 AM	Honestly, I always thought the "corruption in the church" bits were to ease the introduction of Cardinal Richelieu types. Yes, that is the reason - and to have the point that evil people can believe that their actions serve a greater good. But it wasn't supposed to be "The entire church is a stinking cesspool of corruption!"
Errant 06-19-07, 01:44 AM	If I can jump back to the original topic: When I read something that jars with my prior perception of a familiar setting I like to imagine how the new information *could* be consistent with what has gone before. My first thoughts were in line with Arithian's comments regarding the "other" voice in the Flame. Now I don't have the Forge of War yet, and I haven't read *all* of this thread, but here's my take:- Consider the historical perspective. In 299 YK, Tira Miron sacrificed herself to imprison an emerging demon inspiring the Thrane's Silver Flame religion. In 894 King Jarot, last king of Galifar, died and the Last War broke out. Thalin of Thrane promoted the cause of the Silver Flame and following his death in 914 YK Thrane's people turned to the Silver Flame for leadership. That puts us (about) twenty years into the Last War when the Church of the Silver Flame took over the reigns of secular power in Thrane. For 600 years the Church was focused on spiritual challenges. Church leaders outside of Flamekeep were suddenly entrusted with a great deal more authority than they had previously held. Even with Thalin's support could they all really have been properly prepared? In some ways the newly empowered the Church of the Silver Flame would have been in a precarious state. Although they had a huge opportunity consolidate power over-zealously taking up that power could have threatened their grip on the hearts and minds of the general populace. This is the time mentioned by the OP. Newly empowered local leaders of the Church reacted differently to their new authority. Fanatical splinter groups emerged from the shadows, driven by their zealotry to take to the streets and cleans Thrane of any perceived evil. Most were restrained to greater or lesser extent by local Church leaders who remained true to the Church's core values and in many areas the transition was relatively seemless and the worst excesses were avoided. But the Silver Flame's war against supernatural evil is not one sided. The Church has ancient enemies. Cunning, devious enemies that are unlikely merely hole up in remote dungeons waiting for intrepid adventurers to stumble along. Spiritual corruption and outright possession are not above their methods. While the highest level of Church leadership walking the halls of Flamekeep might be difficult to infiltrate, leaders of outlying areas are far easier to pollute. A relative handful of formerly trusted local Church leaders, their corrupt hearts formerly hidden while they lacked secular power, showed their true colors. Local fanatics were driven on in their excesses and horrible attrocities were committed. The Diet of Cardinals finally put their weight behind the Church's Excorsists and Inquisitors (using the terms for their roles sense not any prestige class sense), who's prior warnings had all too often fallen on deaf or reluctant ears. Corrupt members of the faith distinguished themselves from the merely misguided they were purged and the Church consolidated its power in line with the core values, maturing into organisation that is known across Khorvaire to the present day. A terrible, dark stain was left on the history of the Church. This was an episode in the history of the Church that is rarely discussed in public, except by enemies of the Church, but it is remembered. Especially by the Excorsists of the Silver Flame who continue protect the Church from corruption within. ---- On the subject of the Purge, I'm curious as to how AkumaDaimyo thinks the people of the time should have dealt with the plague of evil lycanthropy that started it. Picture yourself in those circumstances: Tales have abounded for centuries about shapeshifters and were-creatures, some of whom lived peacefully alongside normal people for generations. No-one knows what changed, but now people turning into murderous, blood-thirsty monsters. Whole communities have been wiped out. Hundreds if not thousands of innocents have been slaughtered and by the light of day you can't tell an innocent from someone who's infected. Even among the good lycanthropes some have turned evil, slaughtering their own families. No-one can tell who is next or how far the carnage will spread. You don't know if your best friend or even your husband/wife might turn into a snarling beast come moonrise. If you're already a lycanthrope, even of a Good line, you're not even sure if YOU will go on a killing rampage. All rules-lawyering aside, what if you were a simple soldier during that time, or a general, the Speaker of the Flame able to call members of the faith to arms, what if you were the king (the Purge did happen while Galifar was united under one throne didn't it)? How would you deal with it AkumaDaimyo, if you were living in that world? How would you stop the murderous lycanthropes?
Hellcow 06-19-07, 01:58 AM	So if my own child becomes a murderor because of the lycanthrope thing during the Purge I'm NOT supposed to protect my kid with lethal force? Forget that. I don't care. I'm running through ANYONE who touches the kid. Unquestionably. But wouldn't you try to get your kid out of the war zone and find SOMEONE who could help you cure her? (Again, as we've noted, even then many paladins were turning against orders and trying to help the innocent) Would you want to see her gleefully killing innocents - something you know she would never do on her own? And seeing this happen to her - knowing that it might happen to YOU at any time - wouldn't you want to do something more active, whether it's finding a cure or escaping this tainted land once and for all? Sure, kill any templar who tries to kill your child. But just staying put and doing that won't save her in the long run. That was my point about getting out in the first place. This is a fight with no good outcome. Killing the templars won't solve anything; they're just trying to save the farmers. The only solution is to find a cure, and to find people who are willing to help with this. Obviously, that didn't happen. But if you want to be the true force of light, that seems to be a better path than just standing by the evils and killing the templars who come for them. The first Silver Flame dragonshard notes that there WERE paladins and priests searching for a cure and helping good lycanthropes. So find them. Work with them. Prove that the stories are wrong, or at the least try to help as many of your kind as you can. I've also seen lots of example of good working with evil, even in a case of wrong place wrong time like this. I'm still curious to hear your answer to my question of "What would Superman do?" Usually Superman joins with Luthor to save the world - to protect innocents. So a plague is turning metas evil. Humanity believes that ALL metas have been affected. Cadmus is attacking superhumans and attempting to eliminate them. Knowing that some of the JLA have already succumbed to this plague and that he himself might at any time become an unstoppable engine of destruction who would gleefully kill Ma and Pa Kent, would he join with, say, Grodd to fight Cadmus? Would he isolate himself or strip away his powers so he couldn't pose a threat to the innocent? Would he focus on helping capture the crazed superheroes in a nonlethal manner - something he's far better equipped to do - even though he knows Cadmus won't understand or believe he's on their side? Or will he try to find some scientist who WILL believe him and help him find a cure? Good and evil coming together against a common foe is a time-honored tradition. The problem here is that the REAL foe wasn't the templars; it was the expanded curse. You'd kill anyone who threatened your child; that's exactly what the templars were doing, killing anyone who threatened THEIR children, which the 'thropes were doing. The problem is that in the chaos and confusion of war, they couldn't see and couldn't take the risk that their were innocents among those they were fighting. But there were innocents on both sides; the situation itself was the greatest evil of all. So I will probably agree to disagree about this whole thing. Fair enough.
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 02:18 AM	I see your points now. SOMETHING is making most Lycanthropes go evil even if they were formerly good. The good ones could indeed kill to get out of dodge, but staying there wouldn't help matters unless perhaps they think staying there is the only way to figure out what's going on, thus risking infection. Sounds kinda like taint in the Demon Wastes? Will any theories be released on what the heck happened to make even non evil lycanthropes go good? This whole thing gave me a idea of a good alinged Lycanthrope who is actually a member of the Silver Flame whose job it is is to track down and try to convert evil Lycanthropes to good, or failing that kill them. I saw a prestiege class in the Relams for a preistess of Elistrayee whose job it is to redeem evil drow. They have abilities that can somehow turn evil drow good. Sounded like a interesting enough idea for a Lycanthrope race or PrC for a Lycanthrope or Shifter character. They could also be trying to figure out what caused this whole event in the first place. Eberron is full of mysteries where strange things happen, like the Mournland. I've already got some theories on that and now I've got some on what happened to cause the Purge. I at least DO love that Hellcow allows the DMs to decide what caused things to happen instead of a giant metaplot that says "This is how it really happened." I'd have no problem with it actually if he did say "Hey guys this is what happened" but it's nice for DMs to be able to come up with their own theories as to what happened behind some of the events in Eberron.
Nived 06-19-07, 02:34 AM	So if my own child becomes a murderor because of the lycanthrope thing during the Purge I'm NOT supposed to protect my kid with lethal force? Forget that. I don't care. I'm running through ANYONE who touches the kid. I'm sure many people did this. I am also sure that the templars came across many many may many households were someone tried to save a family member keep them contained... but all it takes is a scratch to spread the curse, and the Host forbid if they ever break loose and eviserate the entire family. The young acolyte ran out of the house and started vomiting, Dirk couldn't blame him. The scene they found was horrible. This farmsted was a holdout, the bloody Aundarians were so tied to their farms that many would rather die than leave their land, sadly most of them do these days. When no one had heard from the family in two days the templars were called to go see if they were alright, they weren't of course. You could smell it before you even got close... all the livestock had been slaughtered and left to rot. That was the thing, had it been real wolves they would have eaten the carcases. These creatures just killed to kill, leaving the meat to rot wear it fell with little more than a few hunks taken off. With all the cattle rotting in the field it was no doubt what they'd find inside the only question was, 'how many,'. It was a 'loving family' scene. Dirk could tell before they even entered. All the windows were boarded... and the front door was broken out, not in. That either ment they were stupid enough to let someone who was already turned in.... or they tried to save someone. The acolyte, poor kid had never seen anything like this, and yet as he looked around Dirk felt a bit of envy. He wished a scene like this horrifide him more than it disapointed him. There were three bodies, a man and two children, they had been torn apart. Five, there should have been five. It didn't take long to find where they tied to keep the beast. A ruined trap door in the kitchen led to the root celler, Dirk crouched to look, broken chains. Looked like iron, not silver, they never really had a chance. Knowing where to start he followed the path of the carnage and pieced together the events. Thats how he found the missing pool of blood. With a sigh he walked out of the house and looked to his squad who were already setting about digging the graves. "We're going to have to add Agatha Garrin and Jurin Garrin to the list of the infected," he said to everyone. Lists were kept in all the towns of people who had gone missing, who could not be trusted if seen. "There's no chance they got away?" The question came from the acolyte. "It was Agatha who did this, Jarin wouldn't of stood a chance of getting away." "The mother? She killed her husband and her own children? How can you be sure." "Chains in the celler, they tried to save her. Keep her from us." "Can you blame them?" Dirk looked on as his soldiers carried the body of Fern, the younger Garrin girl was carried to her final resting place, "Yeah, I can." How many times would that have to play out before you do whatever you can to stop it?
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 02:55 AM	Many times. Because I'm not letting the Silver Flame massacre anyone if I think I can save them. Since Eberron can incorporate ideas from other settings I've decided I like the idea of a good alinged Lycanthrope who has abilties allowing him to change evil alinged lycanthropes to good, thus saving them. Of course if he can't he has to kill them. His whole job is to track down evil lycanthropes and convert them or kill them. So he's built to take on evil Lycanthropes in battle if it comes to that. I'm taking the idea from one of the PrC in the Forgotten Realms for the Priestess of Elistraee who can actually convert evil drow to good via some kind of magical abilities they have. So I'm figuring this dude would be from where the good alinged Lycanthropes were exiled too. He and anyone else like him would be trying to figure out what happened and make sure it doesn't happen again. That or he's some kind of special race or template of lycanthrope and not a PrC for Lycanthrope or Shifter PCs of good alingment. Oh, and I just saw your sig about the halfing. He does sound cool. However, he doesn't take into account if your diabetic, then sadly pie does disapoint. :-(
ArcTan 06-19-07, 03:29 AM	Many times. Because I'm not letting the Silver Flame massacre anyone if I think I can save them. Since Eberron can incorporate ideas from other settings I've decided I like the idea of a good alinged Lycanthrope who has abilties allowing him to change evil alinged lycanthropes to good, thus saving them. Of course if he can't he has to kill them. His whole job is to track down evil lycanthropes and convert them or kill them. So he's built to take on evil Lycanthropes in battle if it comes to that. Do what you like for your campaign. I'd like to point out that RAW this is impossible -- people who are already Lycanthropes can't catch another strain of Lycanthropy. And once the disease has set in, afflicted Lycanthropes can't be cured except by a high-level spell like remove curse. And, of course, this only works on *afflicted* Lycanthropes even then. The Patient Zeroes -- the natural Lycanthropes, the ones who were born that way -- will always be what they are and can't be changed. I'm just saying that this fact puts the fact of the Silver Purge in perspective. It's common knowledge or it should be that in a situation like this conversion or curing can't be done.
ArcTan 06-19-07, 03:43 AM	I see your points now. SOMETHING is making most Lycanthropes go evil even if they were formerly good. The good ones could indeed kill to get out of dodge, but staying there wouldn't help matters unless perhaps they think staying there is the only way to figure out what's going on, thus risking infection. Sounds kinda like taint in the Demon Wastes? Will any theories be released on what the heck happened to make even non evil lycanthropes go good? This seems to be the root of your confusion. There is no such thing, as far as I know. Contrary to what Errant and others have said, I don't remember anyone saying that Good-aligned strains of Lycanthropy turned Evil during the Purge. The Purge did constitute some kind of amplification of Lycanthropy, so that all Lycanthropes turned more powerful and "vicious" when in their Lycanthropic forms -- perhaps this only refers to giving Afflicted Lycanthropes the same power as Natural Lycanthropes. The main point of the strange events during the Purge was that Afflicted Lycanthropes gained the same ability to pass on Lycanthropy that Natural Lycanthropes formerly solely possessed -- i.e. Lycanthropy became a plague that could expand exponentially, rather than just a way for individual Natural Lycanthropes to curse unlucky Humanoids. You don't need anything besides that, and besides the fact that Evil Lycanthropes like invading other people's lives, taking away their freedom and ruining society, while Good Lycanthropes tend to not want to do that. When Lycanthropy becomes a plague, it's the Evil kind that purposely releases the plague and the Good kind that tries to keep it contained -- so the Evil Lycanthropes multiply out of control and dwarf the numbers of Good Lycanthropes. No further changes to the nature of Lycanthropy are necessary, including transformations of Good to Evil strains -- which, in my Eberron and D&D, at least, is impossible.
Paulon 06-19-07, 04:49 AM	This seems to be the root of your confusion. There is no such thing, as far as I know. Contrary to what Errant and others have said, I don't remember anyone saying that Good-aligned strains of Lycanthropy turned Evil during the Purge. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a Fourth Paragraph Evil lycanthropes -- always the most numerous of the shapeshifters -- became even more vicious, and many good and neutral lycanthropes were corrupted and drawn down to the darkness.
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 06:20 AM	Thanks Paul. And actually NO it's not impossible to change people's alingments like that. Magical spells and artficats exist which can do things like this. I should also add that even with such a idea in MY Eberron it's not going to be easy and I agree their powers would not work on natural lycanthropes. Those one's they would have to kill because they are ireedemable and immune to their powers of redemption. I'm thinking effectively their powers of redemption are sort of a paladins quest to attone for evil. It would be a huge RP test mostly for redemption and they would be sort of like the support group to redeem you. It would be hard and painfull but the end result would be you'd be good alinged. I never said they were actually returning to Eberron permanently. They could be trying to find any remaining inflicted lycanthropes and bring them to Lamania to live there once cured. Regardless, they'd be pretty darn rare in my Eberron if I even used them. I know I've also seen a PrC somewhere for Lycanthropes that allows them to become good and also control their shapechanging ablities at will.
Phobos 06-19-07, 07:43 AM	This is a fascinating thread, and I'm sad I just found it. I'm pretty open to many of the items talked about, but oddly, out of this whole thing, one things sticks with me. Keith, you did a fantastic job with Eberron. It brought me back to D&D after a 10 year break. But, its the boy in the bubble analogy sadly. In order for you to release your child to the world, you had to go in knowing he'd become infected by others, and *could* (not saying has) become inevitably changed for the worse. I take what I want from the books, and mold the world to my vision. Some I take right out, some I alter, some I make up for my needs. Based on the original great outline you've all presented.
davethebrave371 06-19-07, 09:45 AM	By the way, that whole discussion did bring up a philosophical disagreement I had with a point in the SF chapter of FoE, regarding the use of raise dead and resurrection spells by followers of the SF. If one goal of the SF is to recruit more souls, wouldn't it make sense for followers of the SF who are powerful enough to try to win back souls from Dolruhh? If they do come back, obviously they wanted to, and would probably be so grateful to the power of the SF as to devote their second life to serving it? In other words, shouldn't SF cleric be trying to raise non-SF dead at the request of friends/family left and right? I think the answer to that, honestly, is prohibitive cost. Think about how much is costs to raise the dead. A cleric doesn't know what "level" someone is, or what Con score they had in life, so using something that could possibly kill them as soon as they're raised might make most families wary of spending what would likely be decades of saved money (if not several generations worth) on a process that would ultimately come to nothing. And indeed, a responsible Cleric with such abilities would inform the family that sometimes they don't want to come back...which he won't know until all that money's been wasted. Again, a peasant family would be absolutely bankrupted, at the chance that they might want to come back and might not survive it. So most people would want the sure-fire, true resurrection option: also the most costly. So noble families, perhaps, might want to do it and be able to. But true res is still a huge sacrifice in terms of money, even to a noble. Is it worth it?
Nived 06-19-07, 10:18 AM	To add to what Dave said there is also inheirent risk in Eberron when it comes to bringing back the dead. At best case scenario for failure is that the spell fails because the soul doesn't want to come back or the planes are too far out of alignment. Worst case is you bring something else back, something you didn't mean to (Eberron Campaign Setting pg 95). Pack of ghosts, raise the wrong soul into the dead person's body... get the attention of a Marut. Raising the dead is not something to be taken lightly in Eberron.
Euangelion 06-19-07, 10:24 AM	But true res is still a huge sacrifice in terms of money, even to a noble. Is it worth it? I see your points. But those end up being practical reasons why it would be rare (and good ones at that), not philosophical reasons. And to answer your last question, just how much is a soul worth? How much is a soul worth to the Silver Flame? ;)
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 10:36 AM	Hmm could be cool then for a evil cleric to disguise himself as a Silver Flame guy and res people, but intentionally screw it up so as to give the SF even more of a bad rep. I still like the Silver Flame but someone has to kick those hardliners in the rear. But thats exactly how I see a nation ruled by relgion being at times. Sometimes they are so blinded by their beliefs they cant see what they are doing is wrong. Not always evil per say but sometimes just the wrong course of action. However I would like to see other relgions make some bad mistakes too. I know some of the Soverign host has it's zealots too but they are seen as splinter groups and not the majority. The Silver Flame is getting a pretty bad rap in Forge of War. So where are the nice Sliver Flame guys at who regret a lot of the attrocities of the Last War? FoW does make it seem like the Hardliners are the majority of Silver Flame faithfull.
Euangelion 06-19-07, 10:41 AM	Raising the dead is not something to be taken lightly in Eberron. True, but neither is a soul being lost to Dolruhh(sp?), especially one that might then be added to the Silver Flame. I'm not talking about 1st level commoners, I'm talking about great heroes of the age, mighty souls who would be powerful additions to the Silver Flame. In essense, I'm talking about PCs, and what a great RP situation it would be to be in when a player has to have her companions go to a SF cleric (or even the Keeper of the Flame herself!) to ask that her character be raised. How will the PC respond to the generosity of the Flame? Conversion? Paying back the cost of the spell? Ignoring any formal contract? (Maruts aren't the only kind of Inevitable!!) My suggestion simply opens up more role-playing opportunities than simply ruling that the CotSF doesn't raise non-members, IMHO. The same principal would apply to regular healing magic as well, in fact. I certainly understand why the CotSF wouldn't raise a member who they believe to have joined with the Flame.
Shroomy 06-19-07, 11:09 AM	Yeah, I don't really see the issue. 16th century Europe was convulsed with really, really vicious religious warfare, but I don't generally think of the Catholic Church or the various Protestant demoninations as evil institutions. I also don't see the problem with a power vaccuum being filled (at least temporarily) by extremist factions, especially if their is a cultural inclination to zealotry. Lastly, I can't really think of any historical precedents of such a radical transfer of power from secular to religious authority going over very peacefully especially during wartime.
Hellcow 06-19-07, 11:46 AM	Will any theories be released on what the heck happened to make even non evil lycanthropes go good? Theories? Sure. Let's start with the origins: The sages of Arcanix and the Library of Korranberg have produced many theories, tracing the disease to the daelkyr, the Gloaming, manifest zones bound to Lamannia, or ancient druids. A more exotic theory comes from the Eldeen Reaches. A number of shifter tribes believe that the moons of Eberron are powerful spirits that watch the world below. These shifters maintain that the shifter race is not descended from lycanthropes: Rather, the first lycanthropes were formed from shifters. According to this legend, the moon Olarune sought to create guardians who could protect the world of nature; reaching down from the sky, she touched a handful of chosen shifters, granting them the power to fully assume animal form. But the moonspeakers say that a thirteenth spirit is in the sky -- a dark moon that hides its face from the world. This darkness corrupted Olarune's gift, infecting many of her chosen with madness and evil. Or so the tale is told. Shifters with these beliefs have hunted evil lycanthropes for centuries: they simply lacked the resources to eliminate the threat. So, theories? Sure. It was the work of Dyrrn the Corruptor, one of the mightiest of the daelkyr, reaching up from Khyber to fill the minds of lycanthropes with madness. It was power reaching out of the Gloaming - something unleashed by a (lycanthrope) Child of Winter who believed that the lycanthropes would be the hounds of winter, destroying the old world. A common theory is that this "thirteenth spirit" in shifter legend is actually one of the Overlords of the Age of Demons. According to the shifter myth, all lycanthropes began as good, but the dark spirit corrupted them. The theory holds that evil lycanthropes (and possibly even good ones) unknowly increase the power of this fiend simply by existing. As such, when their population reached a critical mass, its power grew to the point where it could reach out and touch them directly. Those who favor this theory say that this is why it hasn't happened again... but they believe that it WILL happen again should the lycanthropic population rise once more. That's why the Church of the Silver Flame is so adamant about curing them or exiling them - because they believe that the curse itself presents a threat, and that should even the population of GOOD lycanthropes rise to high levels, the darkness will take them again. And if the theory is correct, if the evil spread far enough, the Overlord would be fully released, bursting free of his prision to rule over this feral world. But, of course, these are just theories. Will any official statement be made as to the actual cause? I doubt it, and I hope not. As a mystery, it's entirely up to the DM if it could happen again, and what sort of adventures could be tied to the mystery. I can't PROMISE that no one will ever give a reason. Unlike the Mourning, no one at WotC has ever said that they won't give a reason for the Purge. But I don't particularly expect it. As for a secret order of 'thropes in the Church of the Silver Flame, I think it's a fine thing to explore (after all, if the Keeper is a 'thrope herself - as unlikely as that may be - she might support it). The idea that there's some way to transform/redeem evil 'thropes is obviously a DM fiat thing. But a secret order of 'thropes? Sure. Of course, it's something that could have serious backlash for its patron if discovered, given that 'thropes are on that "hierarchy of evil" list; this could be the kind of thing that triggers a puritan coup against the "corrupted" Keeper who supported this travesty.
Syltorian 06-19-07, 02:20 PM	I managed to get the book, thanks to my FLGS arranging a delivery a day before their regular one as they are going to be off on holidays. So far, I have read only through the Course of the War chapter. There are many great points and excellent scenes there, but I found many examples of what to me are glaring and often great errors. Despite the overall good writing, this leaves me rather disappointed by the book so far. It's one of those instances where I will have to change a lot of things, something I hate to do with official material and have not, really, done so. If I insert the features on the first map (p.11) correctly, Daskaran is in Aundair at the outset of the war. As it was Thrane's capital until 696 YK, I consider this a glaring error that should be addressed. The map was already wrong in PGtE, which shows the Kingdom of Galifar in 500 YK with the same situation... at a time when Daskara was still capital of Thrane but unaccountably located in Aundair. I suggest the pre-war border should be drawn further north, at the Aundair River, to rectify this. Page 12 claims that Aundair's strength at the start of the war was due to its holding Arcanix. However, references from other books, and from page 13 of this very same text claim that Arcanix was in Thrane until one year after the declaration of hostilities. Page 29: The Valenar secession is presented as purely unprovoked; there is no hint that Vadallia was insulted by the Cyran Queen, as mentioned as a possibility in the Valenar Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041004a). Additionally, p.39 mentions that Vadallia's elite troops only withdrew their support from Cyre in 988, despite their declaration of independence in 956, which Cyre apparently decried while keeping all the mercenaries. Can someone explain how that worked? Page 30, amongst other, claims that Karrnath animated the corpses of their fallen enemies. I thought it was more or less established that they preferred to animate their own dead? Mind you, I see the sense in adding some lesser undead to your Karrnathi ones, but I thought the point of Karrnath's undead armies was that they were patriots. In 992/3, Cyre rebuffs Thrane's offers of cease fire (p.41), and Thrane, allied with Breland, even takes Kennrun days before the Mourning. But Five Nations (p.91) explains how Cyran soldiers rescued a Thrane army from being outmanoeuvered by Karrnath. That happened the same year, three days before the Mourning. So was Thrane allied to Cyre, or were they enemies? Throughout the book, Thrane is constantly referred to as having sub-par archers. We are talking here about a nation filled with members of a religion which all but requires its members to train in archery and has a longbow as its chosen weapon. This clearly runs counter to the Silver Flame Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a), which says that a disproportionate number of even simple commoners in Thrane are adept at using the longbow. Thrane not only has sub-par archers, its army consists mostly of untrained, undisciplined levies, with the exception of the Knights of Thrane. That seems to be more the way Aundair acts (FN, p.12), and also Breland. I have been looking for a quote, but I could have sworn I read somewhere that the Thranish armies were second only to those of Karrnath in discipline and training. If anyone could confirm that I have read that somewhere, and even provide the page reference, I'd be grateful. Cardinal Krozen is described in Five Nations (p.142) as an idealistic crusader in his youth, corrupted only since the destruction of Cyre which drove him to paranoia. This book (e.g. p.35) describes him as the leader of the hard-liner puritans right from the beginning, and the greatest obstruction of the Keepers to rein in the most militant of the Purified. So, though I liked the account in general, and most of its particulars - I liked how the troops of Thrane let the Karrns leave after Shadukar, because they focus on helping the trapped citizens (rather surprising, given the general description of the Silver Flame in the book), of Queen Dannel's bipolar disorder, as well as how Thrane is now, two years after the war, offering substantial support to the Cyrans (also that too is a departure from current canon, but at least it makes sense for the Flame - I'm mostly left a bit angry at these discrepencies. Regarding the treatment of the Silver Flame, I have to agree with the other complaints. The Convulsions of the Flame part are only a small fraction of what the Silver Flame was up to. They were almost the greatest war-criminals for the entire war, either because the Keeper supported the hard-liners, or because the hard-liners (i.e. Krozen, according to this text) were too strong within Thrane itself. Much as I like Hellcow's explanation, it seems to be difficult to implement with many of the episodes, unless huge bulks of the Thrane armies were made up of immigrants. Actually, on one campaign, the Thranes only refrained from atrocities because they were lead by archons, who would not brook such behaviour. Mortal Thranes are apparently unable to restrain themselves on their own. But even though they rankle, I left these episodes out of my above list of complaints, because they have already been addressed several times before in this thread.
Hellcow 06-19-07, 03:31 PM	Throughout the book, Thrane is constantly referred to as having sub-par archers. We are talking here about a nation filled with members of a religion which all but requires its members to train in archery and has a longbow as its chosen weapon. This clearly runs counter to the Silver Flame Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a), which says that a disproportionate number of even simple commoners in Thrane are adept at using the longbow. True. I have no problem with Thrane having strong peasant levies, but the reason for that is because the faith encourages militia training. The longbow specifically is used as a form of meditation. But it also ties back to the fact that this is a religion based around fighting supernatural evil... and thus, it's a faith that believes people need to be READY the next time demons strike. That's one reason you had Thrane's involvement in the Purge - because the people of Thrane simply had more trained soldiers than the people of Aundair. As the dragonshard notes, you end up with an unusual number of 1st-level warriors because of this virutally mandatory training. Likewise, in my opinion discipline IS a very strong Thrane virtue; the church itself is very hierarchical, people are trained to work in that structure, and again, that basic militia training is a part of the culture. For very different REASONS that Karrnath's military service, but it's still a culture with a militant bent. Thrane not only has sub-par archers, its army consists mostly of untrained, undisciplined levies, with the exception of the Knights of Thrane. That seems to be more the way Aundair acts (FN, p.12), and also Breland. I have been looking for a quote, but I could have sworn I read somewhere that the Thranish armies were second only to those of Karrnath in discipline and training. I'll have to see if I can find it. It's certainly been my opinion, so it may be that it's just something I've said. In my opinion, Thrane and Karrnath have always been the two most militant nations, Karrnath from its origins and Thrane because of the militant nature of the Silver Flame and the templar orders. Karrnath has the edge in heavy infantry, but Thrane has the edge in heavy cavalry. I still haven't had time to fully read the book. But to me, it sounds like what's being forgotten are the templars. The templars were a trained force that engaged in regular military operations for centuries before the Last War; in many ways, they were the MOST active military force in Galifar, which had little call for national armies. The templars weren't fighting other human nations, but they were nonetheless engaged in continuous struggle against dangerous foes. Again, the Purge is proof that the templars were capable of mounting a large-scale campaign against a powerful foe (crazed wereboars are tougher than typical Cyran levies) Here's what's said about the Templars in the Silver Flame dragonshard... The templars learn their trade in one of the fortress monasteries scattered across Khorvaire. While monasteries exist throughout Thrane, Breland, and Aundair, the three largest fortresses are located in Thrane: the massive monastery of Kloijnir, which watches over Flamekeep; Tira's Watch, on the southeastern border of Thrane and Breland; and Morningcrest to the west. Templars live an austere life, and they dedicate themselves to combat training and religious studies. The majority of templars become warriors, while the most gifted become fighters or monks. A cleric typically travels to a fortress monastery after completing spiritual training in Flamekeep, and here he learns the use of weapons and armor. Needless to say, these orders and fortress predate the war by centuries; they were built to support the war on unnatural evil, which is after all the mission of the church. So, it does seem to me that there's some general confusion about Thrane and the church (the Krozen conflict being one example) - it's just something DMs will have to resolve for themselves. This doesn't make Thranes superhumans who should have won the war... but I'd actually consider their peasant levies to be well-organized and disciplined, second only to Karrnath, because they have prior training and have been preparing for a war - just a war against a very different foe.
Hellcow 06-19-07, 04:02 PM	I'll still say that Thrane issues aside, I've still very much enjoyed what i've seen of the book. I do feel that Thrane and the Silver Flame are both two of the most easily misunderstood elements of Galifar and Khorvaire, and it is unfortunate that there is conflict between this and previous presentations. As Ari said, war can do crazy things to people; I can hold to my image of Thrane prior to the war and my image of Thrane in the present day and still work some of the stranger Thrane events in on that basis. Again, bringing in the influx of foreigners will cause that chaos. Just looking back at my previous statement: I said that the Thranes had well-disciplined peasant militias because of the Thranish tradition of archery and militia training, which was a centuries-long tradition. But bring in foreigners who don't have that training and who may themselves cause suspicion, raise doctrinal disputes, etc, and they will disrupt that well-oiled machine. If the templar orders aren't mentioned at all, that clearly is a mistake. However, if they aren't mentioned at all, I'd see it as just that; their presence has been overlooked, and a DM should simply consider the role they might have played in various events that are covered. The templars would be the most disciplined forces and perhaps the most reluctant to engage in any sort of atrocity. So if only atrocities or failures of discipline are specifically called out, the answer is that it's the templars who are holding the line elsewhere - quietly doing what needs to be done to preserve the kingdom, but not attracting the same level of attention as the unruly newcomer levies precisely because they are acting in a straightforward and efficient manner. "There was a battle between two well-disciplined forces. The Thranish templars held the line and drove the foe back across the borders... again" isn't as interesting as an event where discipline fails, where a village is massacred, where archons personally lead the charge, or what have you. I'd assume the same is true of EVERY nation. I certainly don't assume that the history section covers EVERY battle of the Last War - rather it calls out the most interesting and colorful moments in history. So don't forget about the templars. Don't forget about the traditions of the church. But one way or another the Convulsions WOULD be a time when foreigners would flock to Thrane, and that would cause chaos on all sides - which could result in troops with poor training or discipline, sectarian violence within Thrane, atrocities that seem out of line with Thranish values, and so on. So that's still how I'll reconcile it, where reconciliation is required. Regarding Krozen, that is odd. Since both are in sourcebooks, I'd say that's really up to you to pick your path, just as you may see multiple versions of the Lord of Blades. Personally, I do prefer the Five Nations version; the crusader slowly corrupted definitely more in keeping with the overall theme of both church and nation.
Hellcow 06-19-07, 04:23 PM	Page 29: The Valenar secession is presented as purely unprovoked; there is no hint that Vadallia was insulted by the Cyran Queen, as mentioned as a possibility in the Valenar Dragonshard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041004a). Although, of course, it's mentioned as a possibility. The section on page 29 doesn't go into any great detail on the incident; I'd say there's still room to say that the history books don't know the reason. And the claim over ancestral lands is a core principle in any case. One thing I will note is that at least some of the fortresses claimed by the Valenar are, in fact, rebuilt upon the ruins OF old fortresses of the Valaes Tairn; Taer Sadaen (ECS page 211) is a clear example of one of these old fortresses still standing from the Age of Monsters, and some of the other ruined Taers are supposed to be unclaimed ruins FROM the previous age, not fortresses sacked in the current age. With that said, I really like the Mercenaries of Valenar section on page 81, which touches on many of the things I've said about the Valenar in the past - all the way to the point that their seizure of Valenar may not be because they want the land, but rather because they want someone to come and try to take it away from them. The emphasis on clever tactics over direct charges - along with the note that "The Valenar aren't numerous enough to hurl themselves headlong at a superior foe, but they are skilled and patient enough to whittle down even the largest enemy" - is a key aspect of them, IMO. I'm mostly left a bit angry at these discrepencies. And that's certainly understandable. Having one sourcebook directly contradict a prior sourcebook is obviously an embarassing slip (with the exception of intentional contradictions, suuch as things like conflicting origins of the Lord of Blades). But even with these discrepencies, I think there is a lot of good material.
Euangelion 06-19-07, 04:49 PM	Page 30, amongst other, claims that Karrnath animated the corpses of their fallen enemies. I thought it was more or less established that they preferred to animate their own dead? Mind you, I see the sense in adding some lesser undead to your Karrnathi ones, but I thought the point of Karrnath's undead armies was that they were patriots. Keep in mind that there's a difference between standard skeletons and zombies, and Karrnathi skeletons and zombies. I certainly see Karrn necromancers animating the fallen soldiers of the opposing army as standard skeletons and zombies. Can you imagine the horror of seeing your best friend die horribly, and then minutes later come at you as a zombie? However, only elite Karrns were animated as Karrnathi skeletons and zombies.
Euangelion 06-19-07, 04:57 PM	In 992/3, Cyre rebuffs Thrane's offers of cease fire (p.41), and Thrane, allied with Breland, even takes Kennrun days before the Mourning. But Five Nations (p.91) explains how Cyran soldiers rescued a Thrane army from being outmanoeuvered by Karrnath. That happened the same year, three days before the Mourning. So was Thrane allied to Cyre, or were they enemies? I think a careful reading of the passage in 5N will show that while the sudden arrival of a Cyre army saved some Thrane troops, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Cyrans actually came to the Thranes' rescue. They might have just decided to take advantage of the distraction to attack the Karrnathi army. "General, if we attack now, then the Thrane troops will get away!" "I realize that, Major. It's a price we'll just have to pay."
Hellcow 06-19-07, 05:03 PM	However, only elite Karrns were animated as Karrnathi skeletons and zombies. Yes, and just to clarify this point again, only elite Karrns COULD be animated as Karrnathi skeletons and zombies - consider it to be a special material component. But hey, any (5th-level cleric or 7th-level wizard) can cast animate dead. Not that either of these are trivial, but when you're drawing on the full resources of the nation, they're out there. Can you imagine the horror of seeing your best friend die horribly, and then minutes later come at you as a zombie? Certainly. And in my mind, this is why the Church of the Silver Flame is so deeply opposed to the Blood of Vol (even though it's hardly a common practice in normal times). And honestly, there's a lot of Karrns who aren't so crazy about it themselves. Karrn the Conqueror didn't animate the dead bodies of his enemies - there are many who think the practice sullies the arts of war. The Blood of Vol is strongest in Karrn, but it's not universal. The point may have been "Don't the Karrns consider undeath an honor or a sacrifice?" Intelligent undeath, yes - at least those who follow the Blood of Vol. But The BoV also holds that once you're dead, you're gone. Animating a corpse as a zombie doesn't even involve the previous spiritual occupent; his soul is headed for Dolurrh and utter destruction. So why not use the skeleton or zombie? Even Karrnathi zombies and skeletons, while intelligent, don't have the spirit of the previous being; most say they are animated either by the collective spirit of Karrnath (for the non-Vols) or by the divine blood of the faithful (for the BoVers).
Euangelion 06-19-07, 05:36 PM	But hey, any (5th-level cleric or 7th-level wizard) can cast animate dead. Not that either of these are trivial, but when you're drawing on the full resources of the nation, they're out there. Not to mention 9th level magewrights and adepts (or 8th level if they somehow have an Int/Wis score of 16 or more, respectively.) I won't even bring up the dread necromancer class from Heroes of Horror!
Godu 06-19-07, 05:48 PM	Okay, Since the thread seems to have returned to the original purpose following an interesting discussion of the Purge, and I have had a chance to peruse my copy, I thought I would jump in and agree with most everyone else… (ad nausea even… :D ) Overall I enjoyed the book and feel that I can fit almost all of it into how I see Eberron. I do fully agree with the opinions of both Dreaming Duck and Syltorian as to how Thrane is treated, and feel (probably arrogantly) that I need to add my own points. The treatment of the majority of Thranish infantry as untrained, almost out-of-control mobs, really bothers me. I see this as a direct correlation of some of the real-world crusader periods and, even more so, as very similar to the Church of Menoth in Iron Kingdoms. I truly enjoy Iron Kingdoms, I think that it is an excellent world that will remain at the top of my “gaming inspiration” pile for as long as I game. However, Eberron is not the Iron Kingdoms and the Church of the Silver Flame is NOT the Church of Menoth. It appears though that the writer(s) of the CotSF sections drew much of their inspiration from the intolerant, xenophobic, zealousness of Menoth. To get back to the “mob” point, I see Thrane light infantry as being made up of poorly equipped and trained almost-civilians who are dedicated and faithful followers of their commanders. Would it be possible for troops such as this to riot and go berserk? Sure, but not because the enemy is not dedicated to the Flame but because the enemy is “those d****d, backstabbing Brelish (substitute decadent Cyran, backstabbing Aundairans, death cult Karrnathi).” I could easily also see a blood-mad Thrane soldier suddenly coming upon a weeping villager pleading for their life who is wearing the symbol of the Flame and suddenly coming to the realization that these are not just “d****d Brelish” but innocent civilians that he, as a worshiper of the Flame, has sworn to protect. The sight of the symbol suddenly causing anguish and regret as the soldier drops to his knees and begs forgiveness for allowing himself to be overcome with bloodlust and forgetting the basic tenant of his faith. Truly I believe that a Thrane soldier would be better disciplined, more committed, and less of a mob than the citizen soldiers of either Breland or Aundair. So, in my game, I also am rewriting all those “mobs of undisciplined Thrane fanatics” from the book. Also, did anyone else catch the “bombards” being wheeled around the battlefields? I am going to assume that these are the bombards discussed in the Stormwrack supplement. Does anyone else feel that moving large amounts of explosive powder around a battlefield potentially filled with fire magic is just sorta… foolish…? Clockwork steeds – I have a really big problem with this as well. These things are said to be early precursors of the warforged (on the evolutionary path in a sense). But the warforged are not clockwork, they are organic constructs, so a clockwork steed would in no way be related to the development of warforged. This seems to be another of those “failure to understand the setting” problems. So, in my Eberron, I’ll replace “clockwork steed” with warforged steed, an organic construct produced in the creation forges of House Cannith. Convulsions of the Silver Flame – for this I think that I am going to go with Keith Baker’s original thoughts of reducing this to small, local events by wrong-headed fanatics that are stomped out by all right-thinking members of the faith, including the entire Conclave of Cardinals. I just do not see widespread convulsions, even with the immigration of foreign worshipers to Thrane (to disagree with Hellcow here! :weep: ). That entire section just smacks of the Church of Menoth parallels and has limited validity in Eberron. That’s my 12˘ or more on the book. I generally enjoyed it and will use most of the non-Thrane content in my games. Thanks to Hellcow for his unceasing vigor and vigilance and participation on these boards. His continued support and discussion of his world has increased my enjoyment of Eberron and helped me work through conflicts within the printed materials on numerous occasions.
Nived 06-19-07, 06:53 PM	Yeah that's another annoyance, that people think warforged means clockwork and robots. I am so vehemently against this when i described what Warforged were to a brand new D&D player joining my game he said "So they're walking trees with nailed on armor?" I realized I went a little too far in my stressing. Still I'd rather have him thinking that than 'robot'. But back on topic. I haven't had a chance to go to my friendly local gaming (and comicbook) shop in awhile so I haven't had a chance to get my hands on the book. I personally am interested in the Dragonmarked Houses and the war section. Is there anything on how the mentality of House Deneith went from "General purpose neutral garrison for hire with a focus on defense of private holdings" I mean before the last war they weren't fighting anyone in the five nations they were fighting monsters from western Breland or protecting people from bandits... to during the war being utterly mercenary assault forces who sold their services to the highest bidder... they might be fighting the country they call home (considering they're based in Korth), after a few months and their contract run out go and fight the very forces they were previously working for. That's kinda a shift in perspective I was wondering if anything was written on this paradigm shift in Deneith
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 07:37 PM	Didn't some of the Thrane delegation in conjuction with some warmongering Brelanders also kill some of it's own near the end of the war? The guys who wanted to go to the Treaty of Thronehold on one of those flying fortresses Argonath? Its stuff like that on top of all the other things they did that make it hard for me to see them as good guys. Is their nation more of a LN with some of the Hardliners being LE and of course paladins must be LG. I keep wanting to see the good and honorable Silver Flame paladin who will show mercy to those who ask for it but its hard to do when I keep reading about all the bad things they've done. :-( I agree with Nived. It's annoying that people think Warforged are robots. It's very hard to describe what they are though to someone who hasn't read the book.
davethebrave371 06-19-07, 07:52 PM	Didn't some of the Thrane delegation in conjuction with some warmongering Brelanders also kill some of it's own near the end of the war? The guys who wanted to go to the Treaty of Thronehold on one of those flying fortresses Argonath? Its stuff like that on top of all the other things they did that make it hard for me to see them as good guys. Is their nation more of a LN with some of the Hardliners being LE and of course paladins must be LG. I keep wanting to see the good and honorable Silver Flame paladin who will show mercy to those who ask for it but its hard to do when I keep reading about all the bad things they've done. :-( One of my players is interested in playing a fighter or duskblade or warblade who was there and part of that, but has since been pardoned. Catch? He's one of those uncommon (not rare, 5N, the ECS and the Dragonshards make it clear it's just uncommon) people in Thrane who is a member of a family that has stayed, for the most part, loyal to the Host for more than a thousand years. His mother would have been an important (likely expert class) priest of the Host in Thrane, and probably the top one in his region of Thrane. The point? Thranes do not equate to Silver Flame, nor does the Silver Flame equate to Thrane. Just as you earlier conflated the innocent lycanthropes with the murderers, so do you now conflate Thranish military men with the Silver Flame. With opposite results, I might add. You were saying you'd rather stand beside an evil lycanthrope than a good SF cleric or paladin, earlier. Your argument could easily be made the other way around. "Sure there are some good lycanthropes, but I'd rather stand with an evil Inquisitor of the Flame who slaughters babies than a good lycanthrope who associates with evil ones for survival." Conflating works both ways, for both sides.
Ganeldil 06-19-07, 08:04 PM	Interesting in a game of endless possibilities, that there is so much debate over the most likely or unlikely possibility. I loved the book, one of my favorites released for Eberron so far. Great job gang. Gan
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 08:32 PM	Except that most Silver Flame people are Thrane's. Also the Hardliners in the Diet of Cardinals are in Thrane as well. No I dont see how it's somehow the same. The real push to do the Purge came from Thrane and the Flame. It was a Thranian Silver Flame who said specificaly that lycanthropy endangers your soul. And, actually I used Silver Flame and Thrane interchangable when I should have said "I'd rather stand with the evil lycanthrope if I was a good lycanthrope than the genocidial Silver Flame." Because as you pointed out not all Thranians are Silver Flame nor are all Sliver Flame from Thrane, so you have me there but regardless I stand somewhat by what I said. If I have to ally with a evil person for a incredibly short while to at least get my butt out of dodge? I'll do it. I won't help him kill babies or anything but armed zealots blocking my way are fair game, self-defense and all. After that I get out of there and leave him to his fate or deal with him. I'm the kind of guy who'd fight alongside a friggin zombie if say the government came in and killed EVERYONE. Then I'd have to kill or leave the zombie to it's own fate, seeing as how they are mindless brain eaters most of the time...but dude the whole history of Khorvaire is filled with tons of alliances of the moment. It can last a couple years or a few minutes but that seems to be a theme of Eberron. Also we had moved on from the Purge topic. Let it drop ok? I did. What I was talking about now was how I agree with others that I don't like how all I hear about is all the bad stuff the Flame has done. I may not like what they did in the Purge but I also stand by that not all of them are that over zealous. I like some darkness in any game because I'm a cynic but I still want to see some of the really obvious good guys shine through with the Silver Flame and I'm not seeing any just yet in Forge of War.
davethebrave371 06-19-07, 08:40 PM	Let it drop ok? I did. Alright!
Hellcow 06-19-07, 08:55 PM	Except that most Silver Flame people are Thrane's. Not at all. This is a common fallacy, leading to the "all Thranes are religious zealots" stereotype, but by the ECS it's not true. The Silver Flame was born in Thrane, but during the age of the united Galifar, and it spread across that kingdom. Most Thranes belong to the church because they were bron at its heart. But skim the ECS and check the "Religion" sections of the countries of Khorvaire, you'll see it's very widespread: Aundair. "Most of the people of Aundair follow the teachings of the Silver Flame or worship the Sovereign Host..." Breland. "Breland's citizens mainly belong to the Church of the Silver Flame or the Sovereign Host..." Demon Wastes. "The Ghaash'kala worship a force they call Kalok Shaash, the binding flame... Kalok Shaash is the same force revered by the Church of the Silver Flame..." (though the Ghaash'kala certainly aren't part of the church) Karrnath. "The Church of the Silver Flame has only a token presence here, with small conclaves in Korth and Vedakyr." Small, but still present, even in a very unfriendly environment and after a century of war with Thrane. Q'Barra. "The original settlers brought the faiths of the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host with them to Q'barra." Thrane. "The Church of the Silver Flame holds sway throughout Thrane. The Sovereign Host has a small presence..." Zilargo. "There are gnomes who attend and even perform services for both the Sovereign Host and Silver Flame." While we have no entry for Cyre in the ECS, in my novels, Daine (a former Cyran soldier) was once a follower of the Silver Flame. ... And this is AFTER the war. Hence my point that you probably had a lot of immigrants interested in joining the KINGDOM of the Silver Flame; the people who are still spread across the country are those who either put national interests first or felt that their religion simply had no bearing on a fight between kings; the Silver Flame demands that you defend the innocent, not "Defend Thrane." So while some may have been attracted to Thalin's vision, others felt that their duty was to be a source of light in their own kingdoms, even if that led them to fight others who shared their faith. Again, I'm deeply saddened by the constant portrayal of the Silver Flame as such an intolerant religion. As I've said, at the end of the day it's a religion with a unique role in the world: defending the innocent from threats that DO exist in D&D that we don't deal with. It's a force that empowers its champions to fight vampires and demons, and there's vampires and demons out there. Hence the Brelish templar siding with the Brelish instead of the Thranes. He knows the entire war is unjust. Nothing will change that. If all followers of the Flame leave and move to Thrane, what he does is ensures that no one is left who will try to show compassion and virtue, who will try to defend the innocent. Evil is everywhere, and the templar may choose to stay where he can be a source of inspiration instead of moving to Thrane, at which point he becomes something others will fear. In any case, the Church of the Silver Flame has a strong presence across Khorvaire. Thrane is its heart, but it's not its sole dominion.
Hellcow 06-19-07, 08:56 PM	Also we had moved on from the Purge topic. Let it drop ok? Certainly.
AkumaDaimyo 06-19-07, 08:58 PM	Sorry, didn't mean that to sound like I was going to bite your head off. On another note I found one of the PrC I was thinking of. It's called Moon Gaurdian and it's in the Web Enchancement for Complete Divine. It won't help if you've already become evil but if you can keep making your rolls and then get a level in it your good to go as far as not going evil. However you need to be able to cast divine spells but it does work somewhat for my idea of Silver Flame alinged Lycanthropes or just good alinged divine Lycanthropes. It works on the old MM rules though were say all Werewolves are evil but I don't see why it couldn't be adapted to Eberron to work with strains. Of course it only works on afflicted. Naturals are stuck in whatever alingment they have, unless some extreme uber powerfull spell, item, ect exists that can change that. Oh and to reiterate, it DOES NOT help if you've already become evil. So I guess I'd still like to find a way to redeem evil afflicted.
davethebrave371 06-19-07, 09:04 PM	Sorry, didn't mean that to sound like I was going to bite your head off. On another note I found one of the PrC I was thinking of. It's called Moon Gaurdian and it's in the Web Enchancement for Complete Divine. It won't help if you've already become evil but if you can keep making your rolls and then get a level in it your good to go as far as not going evil. However you need to be able to cast divine spells but it does work somewhat for my idea of Silver Flame alinged Lycanthropes or just good alinged divine Lycanthropes. It works on the old MM rules though were say all Werewolves are evil but I don't see why it couldn't be adapted to Eberron to work with strains. Of course it only works on afflicted. Naturals are stuck in whatever alingment they have, unless some extreme uber powerfull spell, item, ect exists that can change that. Oh and to reiterate, it DOES NOT help if you've already become evil. So I guess I'd still like to find a way to redeem evil afflicted. On that note, I always thought it'd be neat if the were-reptile types (the were-snake and were-croc...which I believe are both from an FR book) had some link to both the Xen'drik yuan-ti and the shulassakar. So you'd have some that (essentially) do worship the Flame, arguably in a purer form.
Nived 06-19-07, 09:08 PM	Well technically the were-template in the monster manual can be adapted to any predatory animal. Also in The Marked for Death Trilogy the character Birch had a history of hunting evil Lycanthropes. There is a flashback scene where he tracks a serial killing were-croc (who was either a lizardfolk or Yaun-ti base if I recall) into the Talenta Plains. We should really make a different thread rather than bringing thsi thread back off topic onto Lycanthropes and the Purge every three posts.
Syltorian 06-19-07, 09:25 PM	True. I have no problem with Thrane having strong peasant levies, but the reason for that is because the faith encourages militia training. The longbow specifically is used as a form of meditation. But it also ties back to the fact that this is a religion based around fighting supernatural evil... and thus, it's a faith that believes people need to be READY the next time demons strike. Good point. I merely remembered the fact that they train with longbows on a regular basis, but I had overlooked that most people will be training for such an eventuality, just in case it's only them between their families (and the world) and disaster. That's one reason you had Thrane's involvement in the Purge - because the people of Thrane simply had more trained soldiers than the people of Aundair. As the dragonshard notes, you end up with an unusual number of 1st-level warriors because of this virutally mandatory training. And, as has been pointed out elsewhere too, I believe, you end up with veterans from the Purge ready for when the war starts. It also just occurred to me that many of the non-Thranish purified, those who started fighting for vengeance, might have begun to join Thrane even before it was declared a theocracy. They could have caused the lack of discipline (but not the routings) of some units (while still well-trained), even at the beginning of the war, and it could have laid the groundwork for taking over after Thalin's death and the chaos that followed. Perhaps some of them had the idea of a Kingdom of the Flame even before Thalin had his vision. How believable would that be? Likewise, in my opinion discipline IS a very strong Thrane virtue; the church itself is very hierarchical, people are trained to work in that structure, and again, that basic militia training is a part of the culture. For what it's worth, I have also always seen them as extremely disciplined. Perhaps a bit likely to seek personal glory by challenging someone on the other side, but not rushing forward without orders or routing at the first sign of problems (there was one battle, I believed, where 'demons' were summoned, and the Thranes routed. That should have been a field-day for the Purified!) I'll have to see if I can find it. It's certainly been my opinion, so it may be that it's just something I've said. I get the feeling it was just something you mentioned in the forums. Pity we cannot get your pronouncements to be canon. ;) In my opinion, Thrane and Karrnath have always been the two most militant nations, Karrnath from its origins and Thrane because of the militant nature of the Silver Flame and the templar orders. Karrnath has the edge in heavy infantry, but Thrane has the edge in heavy cavalry. According to FW: Thrane's cavalry is described as "rise to a reasonable standard of training". They do have an elite unit (Avenging Hand), but most of them are simply "well-regarded" (55-56). But Karrnath is said to make substantial use of its heavy cavalry. (p.53). Without this being actually spelt out, I get the feeling that this means: Karrnath's cavalry rules, Thrane cavalry is passable. I had heard your view before, Hellcow, and I definitely like it. I'll just try and find out whether you said it anywhere where it is canon. I still haven't had time to fully read the book. But to me, it sounds like what's being forgotten are the templars. The templars were a trained force that engaged in regular military operations for centuries before the Last War; in many ways, they were the MOST active military force in Galifar, which had little call for national armies. The templars weren't fighting other human nations, but they were nonetheless engaged in continuous struggle against dangerous foes. Again, the Purge is proof that the templars were capable of mounting a large-scale campaign against a powerful foe (crazed wereboars are tougher than typical Cyran levies) No mention made of them, as far as I know. Would they have gotten involved in fighting between nations (unless there is a demon fighting with Breland, or undead with Karrnath?) He is, after all, looking for supernatural threats; this shut be beneath him... or not? This doesn't make Thranes superhumans who should have won the war... but I'd actually consider their peasant levies to be well-organized and disciplined, second only to Karrnath, because they have prior training and have been preparing for a war - just a war against a very different foe. And that is what I am going to stick with. Now to rewrite the battles where they fought and go, according to the book, routed. I'll still say that Thrane issues aside, I've still very much enjoyed what i've seen of the book. On that, I agree wholeheartedly. It describes some very interesting events, and gives us the fate of the main people of the continent. I like the touch, for example, that Wrogar loved the Eldeen Reaches, and that centaurs were enrolled. I liked it that the Karrns escaped from Shadukar, because the Thrane armies refused to give up on the city, and rescued many of the inhabitants. I liked the part where, can't remember at which battle, the commander dies, and someone else takes his helmet to prevent a drop in moral. So yes, it's well written, except for poor Thrane. I do feel that Thrane and the Silver Flame are both two of the most easily misunderstood elements of Galifar and Khorvaire, They are, aren't they? Could you perhaps prevail on WotC to get something official, canon material posted that explains these things, and offers alternatives, just as how you did on this thread? You'd need only get them to make the answers in this post official... Just looking back at my previous statement: I said that the Thranes had well-disciplined peasant militias because of the Thranish tradition of archery and militia training, which was a centuries-long tradition. But bring in foreigners who don't have that training and who may themselves cause suspicion, raise doctrinal disputes, etc, and they will disrupt that well-oiled machine. That would work well; we only have to rewrite the first battles before Thalin died, where the Thranes were routed, especially the one where Second Siege of Eston, where the Thranes were panicked by summonings. Shouldn't they have been trained exactly for that... unnatural monsters? If the templar orders aren't mentioned at all, that clearly is a mistake. However, if they aren't mentioned at all, I'd see it as just that; their presence has been overlooked, and a DM should simply consider the role they might have played in various events that are covered. The templars would be the most disciplined forces and perhaps the most reluctant to engage in any sort of atrocity. So if only atrocities or failures of discipline are specifically called out, the answer is that it's the templars who are holding the line elsewhere - quietly doing what needs to be done to preserve the kingdom, but not attracting the same level of attention as the unruly newcomer levies precisely because they are acting in a straightforward and efficient manner. Would the Templars have been used as a regular force, then? Their duties are to fight the supernatural, so Karrnath is OK, with their undead; but unless Breland shows up with summoned fiends, would they accompany an attack against them? I certainly don't assume that the history section covers EVERY battle of the Last War - rather it calls out the most interesting and colorful moments in history. Good point. But if we ignore the common battles, then we have heroic and villainous ones to talk about. Thrane virtually only gets the latter. Regarding Krozen, that is odd. Since both are in sourcebooks, I'd say that's really up to you to pick your path, just as you may see multiple versions of the Lord of Blades. Personally, I do prefer the Five Nations version; the crusader slowly corrupted definitely more in keeping with the overall theme of both church and nation. I prefer him as the young-hero, later corrupted by fear that the Mourning could happen in Thrane, too. The section on page 29 doesn't go into any great detail on the incident; I'd say there's still room to say that the history books don't know the reason. And the claim over ancestral lands is a core principle in any case. Agreed. With that said, I really like the Mercenaries of Valenar section on page 81, which touches on many of the things I've said about the Valenar in the past - all the way to the point that their seizure of Valenar may not be because they want the land, but rather because they want someone to come and try to take it away from them. The emphasis on clever tactics over direct charges - along with the note that "The Valenar aren't numerous enough to hurl themselves headlong at a superior foe, but they are skilled and patient enough to whittle down even the largest enemy" - is a key aspect of them, IMO. I hadn't gotten that far yet, but it looks good. But even with these discrepencies, I think there is a lot of good material. Again, that is something I can agree on. There are many good things, but like the massacres and burnings enacted by the Thranes along with their many more numerous good deeds, it's th bad ones that stick in the mind... Keep in mind that there's a difference between standard skeletons and zombies, and Karrnathi skeletons and zombies. I certainly see Karrn necromancers animating the fallen soldiers of the opposing army as standard skeletons and zombies. Can you imagine the horror of seeing your best friend die horribly, and then minutes later come at you as a zombie? It would be a great horror, certainly good for the psychological effect. But I didn't know it was common practice. After all, you need to control those lesser undead; your Karrnathi ones will follow orders without you spending rebuke-attempts, spells, or other feat slots on them. It's a spirit of Kharrnath (in theory), so it knows what to do. I think a careful reading of the passage in 5N will show that while the sudden arrival of a Cyre army saved some Thrane troops, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Cyrans actually came to the Thranes' rescue. They might have just decided to take advantage of the distraction to attack the Karrnathi army. That is a valid reading. But Keith also seems to believe they were allied (here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12640138&postcount=46)). Not that that is official, of course. Unless there was going to be a nasty shock for Breland, if it turned out Thrane had all the time been allied with Cyre. Of course, now with Cyre gone, Thrane has taken care that nobody finds out about their planned betrayal. Yes, and just to clarify this point again, only elite Karrns COULD be animated as Karrnathi skeletons and zombies - consider it to be a special material component.But hey, any (5th-level cleric or 7th-level wizard) can cast animate dead. Not that either of these are trivial, but when you're drawing on the full resources of the nation, they're out there. How often are they going to do it, though? Masses of unthinking undead are difficult to control. Okay, at Shadukar it made sense, demoralise the enemy, and leave the unintelligent undead behind to occupy the Thranes as you retreat. But otherwise, you merely get some slow, unintelligent creatures around that you need to spend constant resources on to keep them obeying you. To finish of this lengthy post, though: Thanks again for taking so much of your time to answer us here, and in so much detail, too!
Rauric 06-19-07, 10:26 PM	I like to use Thrane and it's religion like how I view the Catholic Church. It's a huge organization that has several people, many religious politicians, jockeying for power. While alot are in it for the main goal of protecting people from the supernatural, many will seek to use it as a means to boost their status in society. It is just the nature of the beast. Plus some of those folks who wish to protect the masses from evil are willing to cross any moral line to accomplish their goal. So in my opinion you have a large religious juggernaut with some good and a bunch of somewhat dubious to downright evil people in it. Not saying the common people are like this. I would like to think of them actually trying to follow the holy scripture when they can. Just the Religious/Political aspect of the faith is a bit askew. I am not a Catholic basher btw. There are good people and nasty people in all faiths. It is what it is.
Hellcow 06-19-07, 10:27 PM	Would the Templars have been used as a regular force, then? Their duties are to fight the supernatural, so Karrnath is OK, with their undead; but unless Breland shows up with summoned fiends, would they accompany an attack against them? The templars are the soldiers of the church. They are trained to fight supernatural threats that others will not be prepared for. But they are still charged to defend the innocent and to serve the church; now we're back to that strict discipline, and the first Silver Flame dragonshard notes that most templars do follow the orders of cardinals and Keeper. I could see a case being made that templar units would be typically held for defensive duties - defending the innocent - but I would certainly see them deployed offensively against Karrnath and Aundair. Another point: The Q'barran settlement of New Galifar was established during the Last War. As noted in my previous post, the settlers brought the Flame with them. I'd argue that this may have included a number of templars who felt it was wrong for the church to become a political force and engage in the war - but who certainly weren't going to raise arms against the church, either. So you have people who came to Thrane to be a part of the holy kingdom; people who chose to follow the Flame in their own nations; and those who felt that to be true to their faith, they had to step away from the war entirely.
davethebrave371 06-19-07, 10:45 PM	and those who felt that to be true to their faith, they had to step away from the war entirely. I have just such a Q'barran NPC in my campaign, who was born barely a decade after Tira Miron's sacrifice (Khorvaire elf, obviously) into a Karrnathi elven family who were basically agnostic (don't know what's out there, but our ancestors' religion wasn't right for the immigrants who preceded us and this Khorvaire-wide "your god is our god" doesn't seem right either) and took the Faith with a fervor that his parents disapproved of greatly. Made him an expert 12 with emphasis on Knowledge (religion), Heal and Diplomacy, and had him participate in the Purges on a local level (i.e. any evil ones threatening the township he lived in he rallied the troops against) but not as an aggressor. And I had this NPC do exactly what you say above when Thalin declared it his "divine right" to rule Khorvaire. He backed out of it, cut off communication with Thrane and lived as neutral and peacefully as he could in his Karrnathi hometown until things got really bad, then packed up and moved to the Principalities. I had him be part of the first wave of settlers into Q'Barra after news of its founding spread (but not part of the initial wave of settlers assembled by ir'Kesslan in 928). I guess I make a point of making exceptions to the rule to increase verisimilitude for my players, as there is no such thing as even a family (or even a set of twins) as identical as some people portray all members of a faith, or all members of a race, etc. in a D&D game.
The Dreaming Duck 06-19-07, 10:58 PM	On that, I agree wholeheartedly. It describes some very interesting events, and gives us the fate of the main people of the continent. I like the touch, for example, that Wrogar loved the Eldeen Reaches, and that centaurs were enrolled. I liked it that the Karrns escaped from Shadukar, because the Thrane armies refused to give up on the city, and rescued many of the inhabitants. I liked the part where, can't remember at which battle, the commander dies, and someone else takes his helmet to prevent a drop in moral. So yes, it's well written, except for poor Thrane. Exactly. I think the first chapter is very well written. The problem is that it's incredibly poorly researched. Not keeping up with the Dragonshards is one thing (though it doesn't seem hard to just look at the index and see if any titles sound relevent). But contradicting Five Nations is another. I don't know Iron Kingdoms, but if this really is similar to Iron Kingdoms, that's even worse; it just seems lazy to say "Yeah, sure, fanatical theocracy, I've done that before." I think Wolfgang Baur is a great WRITER, and I love the vast majority of this - but I think it's a shame that he didn't take this opportunity to explore how Thrane ISN'T Iron Kingdoms. Still, a lot of really good stuff here. Just frustrated. I'm not incensed. I'm glad I own the book, and I recommend it to anyone. So far, I love chapter two. Yes, the "Thrane archers suck" is one more example of the "What is this Thrane thing of which you speak"ness of it. But compared to the good stuff, that's REALLY trivial. Frankly, I've said all I've got on the subject. I'm cranky about Thrane. Big whoop. I'll ignore it and use the other canon material as my guide there. Personally, I'm all for starting a new thread to talk about the GOOD stuff. :)
Neutronium_Dragon 06-19-07, 11:10 PM	> Well technically the were-template in the monster manual can be adapted > to any predatory animal. Any predator or omnivore, as long as it's something of the animal type (so it definitely includes reptilian, avian, and other critters). That extends to predators who're sanguivores or insectivores. Basically, anything other than a pure herbivore. >> Personally, I do prefer the Five Nations version; the crusader slowly >> corrupted definitely more in keeping with the overall theme of both church >> and nation. > > I prefer him as the young-hero, later corrupted by fear that the Mourning > could happen in Thrane, too. Now, this gets me wondering - I don't have Five Nations (yet... so many books to buy...), but Krozen is obviously pretty ruthless in his current behavior. Still, how much does he realize his own fall? It's easy to portray him (especially given the constant smearing of the CotSF in official material) as the stereotypical iron-fisted tyrant, but it would be interesting if there's still some part of him that's constantly torn about the things he does in the name of necessity. If a group ever got involved in the higher politics of the church, that could produce some unexpected twists (especially if the players have bought into the constant negative stereotypes).
davethebrave371 06-19-07, 11:36 PM	I think Wolfgang Baur is a great WRITER, and I love the vast majority of this I think he was one of the best Planescape writers. He took either the Silver or Bronze medal, for me, of all the people who worked on Planescape. I love his stuff. It's just kind of sad it just so happens that one of his many contributions to the book is a little...well, it's been said, not so researched. But I hold no ill will towards the guy, because the rest of the book is amazing, and he had a hand in the rest of that amazing. Frankly, I've said all I've got on the subject. I'm cranky about Thrane. Big whoop. I'll ignore it and use the other canon material as my guide there. Personally, I'm all for starting a new thread to talk about the GOOD stuff. :) I started one! :D
Godu 06-19-07, 11:55 PM	I personally am interested in the Dragonmarked Houses and the war section. Is there anything on how the mentality of House Deneith went from "General purpose neutral garrison for hire with a focus on defense of private holdings" I mean before the last war they weren't fighting anyone in the five nations they were fighting monsters from western Breland or protecting people from bandits... to during the war being utterly mercenary assault forces who sold their services to the highest bidder... they might be fighting the country they call home (considering they're based in Korth), after a few months and their contract run out go and fight the very forces they were previously working for. That's kinda a shift in perspective I was wondering if anything was written on this paradigm shift in Deneith Nived, there is not a whole lot about it but there are a couple of gems relating to what you are asking (some of this is my opinion - I will attempt to show where that and the book diverge...) The following is gained from p.67 of the FoW: The war divided House Deneith into the Sentinel Marshals which attempted to maintain some kind of international law and order and deal with outrageous war crimes while the majority of the House (Blademark Guild? – there appears to be an error on p.67 – Final Days concerning these two sections of the House) worked to provide mercenaries to the warring factions. It appears as if there was a House Deneith (HD) Mercenary Code of some sort concerning secrets and plans and an attempt to avoid having HD units engage one another on the battlefield. Finally, the current lord (Shirin d’Deneith) is appalled at the entrance of House Tharashk into the mercenary market and the consequent loss of prestige, power, and gold from HD. It appears that Lord Shirin has become somewhat unhinged (my opinion) by these setbacks and this has led him to contemplate Dragonmarked control of Khorvaire under HD rule. Somewhere else in the book, I am fairly sure I remember this correctly, there is a discussion of how House Deneith was impressed by House Cannith’s alliance with Cyre in Eston. This then led to HD declaring their central city (erroneously labeled as Karrlakton?) as a free city under their protection (even though it was in Karrnath) and that the warring parties generally avoided attacking the city. Once again, no index… (Sigh!:rolleyes: ) so I am not sure exactly where that final point came up (somewhere in the 1st Chapter I think). Also, does anyone know why the discussion of the Dragonmarked Houses is split? The discussion on the Eldeen Reaches seems to split the Houses into two sections… is this just an editing error or is there a (unremarked) reason?
Mouseferatu 06-20-07, 12:08 AM	Also, does anyone know why the discussion of the Dragonmarked Houses is split? The discussion on the Eldeen Reaches seems to split the Houses into two sections… is this just an editing error or is there a (unremarked) reason? Reply With Quote Alphabetics. You'll note that there's one section called "Dragonmarked Houses" that covers the houses that were less* involved in the Last War, under "D." Then, under "H," separate entries for each of the Houses that were more heavily involved in the war. *Note that "less involved" does not even remotely mean "uninvolved." But some Houses definitely had a bigger impact on, or were more impacted by, the war than others.
Mouseferatu 06-20-07, 12:14 AM	Oh, and because I know someone's going to ask... ;) The reason we didn't give all the Houses their own entry is that, when we were writing this, the plan was for each of the "encyclopedia-style" entries to be its own spread, starting on a new page. As such, there wasn't room to give each House its own entry, so we combined the ones that were less involved into one. Apparently that concept was later dropped during layout.
Teron Gorefiend 06-20-07, 03:29 AM	I like to use Thrane and it's religion like how I view the Catholic Church. It's a huge organization that has several people, many religious politicians, jockeying for power. While alot are in it for the main goal of protecting people from the supernatural, many will seek to use it as a means to boost their status in society. It is just the nature of the beast. Plus some of those folks who wish to protect the masses from evil are willing to cross any moral line to accomplish their goal. So in my opinion you have a large religious juggernaut with some good and a bunch of somewhat dubious to downright evil people in it. Not saying the common people are like this. I would like to think of them actually trying to follow the holy scripture when they can. Just the Religious/Political aspect of the faith is a bit askew. I am not a Catholic basher btw. There are good people and nasty people in all faiths. It is what it is. I'm afraid you have quite the wrong idea about the Catholic Church. There's little temporal power to be had within the Church, and the "jockeying" that does happens is over doctrine - for instance, not everyone is satisfied with the recent official conclusion that Limbo was an error and doesn't actually exist (it's not mentioned in the Bible, after all). Sadly, there are some bad people who hold positions within the Church, but they get much rarer the higher you look in the hierarchy because there's little for the selfish to gain there. There's also no denying the many shameful things that have been done in the name of Christ, but the Church has always had good intentions and has matured greatly since the Middle Ages. What Catholicism (and other variants of Christianity, crazy cults aside) comes down to is people trying to do right by God and encourage others to do the same. There's no room for hurting people in that. Is it too much to ask that people think twice before saying that the Church of the Silver Flame's positive aspects are a contrast to the Catholic Church? I'm rather disappointed to see even Mr. Baker implying as much.
Syltorian 06-20-07, 06:05 AM	The templars are the soldiers of the church. They are trained to fight supernatural threats that others will not be prepared for. But they are still charged to defend the innocent and to serve the church; now we're back to that strict discipline, and the first Silver Flame dragonshard notes that most templars do follow the orders of cardinals and Keeper. Again, thanks a lot for the reply, Keith! I particularily like the idea that many templars might have joined Q'Barra. Any chance we can get WotC to declare these comments official? ;) Exactly. I think the first chapter is very well written. The problem is that it's incredibly poorly researched. That's what puzzles me most. Much of it is quite well researched, actually. Some even comparatively minor elements from previous sources cropping up, such as the description of the Siege of Korth, where he takes FN as a basis. But then he suddenly decides to ignore it (almost only) when it comes to Thrane. Now, this gets me wondering - I don't have Five Nations (yet... so many books to buy...), but Krozen is obviously pretty ruthless in his current behavior. Still, how much does he realize his own fall? It's easy to portray him (especially given the constant smearing of the CotSF in official material) as the stereotypical iron-fisted tyrant, but it would be interesting if there's still some part of him that's constantly torn about the things he does in the name of necessity. If a group ever got involved in the higher politics of the church, that could produce some unexpected twists (especially if the players have bought into the constant negative stereotypes). I'd be pretty interested in what other people think of this, too. The way I see him is that he is desperately trying to save his own Kingdom (he appears to see Thrane as such) from the Mourning, which he believes could strike Thrane next. He does so by trying to pull all the strings, and create as tight a control as he can. It makes him likely to lash out at everything he considers a threat. He is not evil so much as greatly paranoid, not for himself, but for his beloved nation. He might even be ready to help the displaced Cyrans (as he understands the horror of the Mourning), while trying to keep them out of Thrane so that they do not spread any kind of contagion or taint...
ArcTan 06-20-07, 06:40 AM	I'm afraid you have quite the wrong idea about the Catholic Church. There's little temporal power to be had within the Church, and the "jockeying" that does happens is over doctrine - for instance, not everyone is satisfied with the recent official conclusion that Limbo was an error and doesn't actually exist (it's not mentioned in the Bible, after all). Sadly, there are some bad people who hold positions within the Church, but they get much rarer the higher you look in the hierarchy because there's little for the selfish to gain there. There's also no denying the many shameful things that have been done in the name of Christ, but the Church has always had good intentions and has matured greatly since the Middle Ages. What Catholicism (and other variants of Christianity, crazy cults aside) comes down to is people trying to do right by God and encourage others to do the same. There's no room for hurting people in that. Is it too much to ask that people think twice before saying that the Church of the Silver Flame's positive aspects are a contrast to the Catholic Church? I'm rather disappointed to see even Mr. Baker implying as much. FWIW, I would say that Thrane being one of the continent's major powers while also being an unabashed theocracy is very different from the Church at almost any time in its history (even the time of the Papal States). At no time in history can one really say the Catholic Church or the Vatican had the power to *declare war* the way Thrane does -- at most, other countries declared war under the influence and inspiration of the Catholic Church, but this is in an important way *not the same thing*. The fact that everyone brings up the Spanish Inquisition as a low point for real-life religion and asks whether Thrane matches it, for instance, overlooks the point that the Spanish Inquisition was carried out by the *secular government of Spain* outside of Church authority. I would say that the CotSF's this-worldly attitude and power structure makes it less likely to go berserk about certain things than the Catholic Church, but that this same structure means that when it does, it will be on a far greater and more dangerous level. (I agree with other people on this thread that the description I'm hearing of Church atrocities doesn't match up with my view of the Church, but I also agree that this is more because of the context and the kind of atrocity that it is more than anything else. I can easily see the CotSF being misled into killing tons of innocents in an unjustifiable way, even if the Silver Purge doesn't qualify in your eyes.)
ArcTan 06-20-07, 06:45 AM	By the way, I'm a little disappointed at people saying that Thrane can't be responsible for atrocities because the doctrine of the Silver Flame forbids it, as though there aren't plenty of real-life examples of atrocities committed by real-life religions in defiance of their doctrines. The CotSF says to worry about the fate of each individual soul and try to protect them from death? Well, so does Christianity. That doesn't mean Christians haven't killed a lot of people unjustly throughout history. It's not that hard to think up a CotSF-centric justification for killing somebody you really want to kill (which is the stock in trade of Evil Purified Clerics, right?). *Especially* with the this-worldly focus of the church. A Catholic might actually be persuaded not to, say, kill somebody who is a major temporal threat to the Church and its standing because all earthly things are temporary and the important thing is our judgment in heaven -- so how could it be worth it to save the Church's temporal assets only to be damned for it in the afterlife? But if notions of the afterlife are purely theoretical and the purpose of the Church is to deal with the here-and-now -- well, then, here and now sacrifices and compromises have to be made. The battle against supernatural evil is constant and unyielding; the Rakshasa don't care about justice or honor, they only care about ripping open our throats; so *we can't afford* to have any weakness or corruption or dissension in our ranks. It's not a hard line of reasoning to imagine.
ArcTan 06-20-07, 06:49 AM	The way I see him is that he is desperately trying to save his own Kingdom (he appears to see Thrane as such) from the Mourning, which he believes could strike Thrane next. He does so by trying to pull all the strings, and create as tight a control as he can. It makes him likely to lash out at everything he considers a threat. He is not evil so much as greatly paranoid, not for himself, but for his beloved nation. He might even be ready to help the displaced Cyrans (as he understands the horror of the Mourning), while trying to keep them out of Thrane so that they do not spread any kind of contagion or taint... Well, no, he is actually Evil. That's what his alignment entry says. Seriously, I'm less interested in Krozen if the justifications for his behavior so that they "make sense" end up making him not actually a bad guy anymore. He *is* a bad guy, as presented, and his behavior should match it. I wouldn't say he's just paranoid. I'd picture him as someone whose paranoia has crossed over into hatred and bigotry. Anyone who brings weakness or risk to the Church is an agent of the Lords of Dust, is a chink in the armor that he's worked so hard to build against the dangers that lurk just outside one's vision. In order to fight the greater evil one must constantly be on the lookout for the lesser evil and willing to destroy lesser evils by any means necessary. Etc. I mean, it's one thing to complain about people seeing Thrane as an organization full of Cardinal Richelieus -- it's another to react to that by starting to describe the CotSF in such a way that it almost sounds like Cardinal Richelieu doesn't exist at all, and the Church really is spotless and clean. You say the CotSF is a cross between Jedi and Men in Black? Both those organizations, in their respective fictional universes, have one important factor in common -- when push comes to shove, they don't give a damn about the rights or the dignity of the people they protect if it compromises their efforts to protect them, and they are absolutely certain that they know best and should have all the power they need to do what they have to do. The whole *concept* of being a power elite that everyone else depends on for their survival against a nebulous Great Threat out there is one that breeds a certain kind of arrogance, one that can be fatal (and nearly is, on repeated occasions, for both the Jedi and the MiB) even if it doesn't lead to corruption -- and it frequently does.
Archangel62 06-20-07, 08:00 AM	One side note, something worth looking at is this, Thrane has apparently claimed the role of watchman to Khorvaire, the guardian of all that is good. The big question though has to be who watches the watchman? And the answer seems to be no one, while the war with the lycanthropes probably wasn't a slaughter the fact that there was no proper oversight probably didn't help matters when they attacked innocents.
Just another user 06-20-07, 10:05 AM	Here's how I would play this situation. [...] So there's my Solgar Dariznu. ;) Wow, it is like to see Superman turning coal into diamonds. :)
Euangelion 06-20-07, 10:36 AM	By the way, I'm a little disappointed at people saying that Thrane can't be responsible for atrocities because the doctrine of the Silver Flame forbids it, as though there aren't plenty of real-life examples of atrocities committed by real-life religions in defiance of their doctrines... The more I think about the whole Convulsions thing, the less unrealistic it seems to me. I got to thinking about our world situation, and I asked myself if I could think of some places/situations where such a thing could occur today, and unfortunately I had to answer in the affirmative. Yes, I could see a population get so swept up in a religious fervor that it could start slaughtering people left and right. What makes it even more plausible in my mind for Thrane is the possibility that it its core it could have had a supernatural source, perhaps a plot by the LoD to spark such a cataclysmic display of violence and evil that it would give the rajah bound at Flamekeep the extra power it needs to break free from its bonds once again. It that way it wouldn't truly be a negative reflection on the religion of the Silver Flame, but instead would be a powerful reminder of just the kind of force that the Silver Flame struggles against, a force of evil so powerful it can cause entire populations to slaughter each other. Of course, the average citizen of Breland, etc. wouldn't understand that, and would simply see it as what could happen when a nation is ruled by the CotSF. So I'll back off from being critical of that particular section. But forgetting that Thranes know well how to use a longbow, sheesh! :rolleyes:
AkumaDaimyo 06-20-07, 11:08 AM	On the relgious ferver thing and killing others, it's happened lots of times in history. The Romans vs Catholics and throwing them to the Lions, The Crusades, Japan's isolationism during part of their Feudal Era when they outlawed Catholics or was it Christians? In ethier case they killed lots of them and I even remember they boiled some of them alive in hotsprings. It also seems for the CotSF that the hardliners seem to have more pull, at least in Thrane. So is there a secret order of CotSF that is looking to ruthlessly cut out corruption from inside the church? Sort of a relgious assassin or something? Kinda like one of those Book of Exhaulted Deeds good alinged assasins but focused on cleaning up the CotSF rep by killing those who are corrupt in the church if need be?
Syltorian 06-20-07, 12:03 PM	Well, no, he is actually Evil. That's what his alignment entry says. And in Eberron, evil people can have good intentions. Kaius is evil. And one of the major proponents of peace, caring deeply for his nation. It's just the methods that make them evil. Seriously, I'm less interested in Krozen if the justifications for his behavior so that they "make sense" end up making him not actually a bad guy anymore. He *is* a bad guy, as presented, and his behavior should match it. He still is a bad guy, even with my justification. He goes over the top with his actions, lashes out at innocents, tries to control the government and removes all obstacles, whether or not they really are obstacles. His behaviour is evil, agreed. But his goals might not be. He cannot be down-to-the-core evil, in league with the Lords of Dust. He still is a cleric of the Silver Flame, after all. Which means that, as questionable as his methods are, he himself is still convinced he acts for the Silver Flame, and thus for good. I wouldn't say he's just paranoid. I'd picture him as someone whose paranoia has crossed over into hatred and bigotry. That's a fair interpretation, but how would you explain that until 994 YK, he was, by Five Nations, a decent and idealistic guy? Anyone who brings weakness or risk to the Church is an agent of the Lords of Dust, is a chink in the armor that he's worked so hard to build against the dangers that lurk just outside one's vision. In order to fight the greater evil one must constantly be on the lookout for the lesser evil and willing to destroy lesser evils by any means necessary. Etc. And agent for the Lords of Dust? No. An agent for the Lords of Dust is someone who willingly follows them. Krozen doesn't. He's still firmly convinced he acts for the good of the Flame. He may be a dupe of the Lords of Dust, but not an agent. II mean, it's one thing to complain about people seeing Thrane as an organization full of Cardinal Richelieus -- it's another to react to that by starting to describe the CotSF in such a way that it almost sounds like Cardinal Richelieu doesn't exist at all, and the Church really is spotless and clean. And Cardinal Richelieu acted in what he saw was the best interest of France. He actually consolidated the power of that nation quite a lot. He was not a nice person, to say the least, and he may have worked for his own benefit as well. But he was not pure evil. So yes, I see Krozen as Richelieu. It just seems we have different views on Richelieu. By the way, I'm a little disappointed at people saying that Thrane can't be responsible for atrocities It's not really that people don't accept that Thrane can be responsible for atrocities. What people complain about is that Thrane does virtually nothing but committing atrocities. The only time when they restrain themselves, it's because they are led by archons from Savarath. As presented, Thrane is pure, black evil. The occasional, localised mob killing foreigners? An army going over the top with its zeal? No problem. I have no problem with some hard-liners existing in the Church, or for Thrane to take bloody vengeance for Shadukar. But doing so on a consistent basis, considering it normal and routine - that's what I do not accept. It's the uncompromising, unbalanced depiction of an evil, horrible Thrane that people complain about, not the occasional atrocity committed in a crisis situation. It also seems for the CotSF that the hardliners seem to have more pull, at least in Thrane. Which, by other official material, they shouldn't have. The hard-liners are clearly depicted as being in Aundair; Thrane is equally clearly defined as being in the hands of moderates. So is there a secret order of CotSF that is looking to ruthlessly cut out corruption from inside the church? Sort of a relgious assassin or something? Kinda like one of those Book of Exhaulted Deeds good alinged assasins but focused on cleaning up the CotSF rep by killing those who are corrupt in the church if need be? The Diet of Cardinals, according to Faiths of Eberron, keeps a lookout for corruption amongst the clergy. Some remote clerics escape that control, as do those in too difficult positions to remove effectively (Thaliost), or those good at hiding (Sharn). It's the Silver Torch, the hard-liners, who are the secret society, mostly disavowed by the government (Five Nations, again).
Arcane Guyver 06-20-07, 12:44 PM	So is there a secret order of CotSF that is looking to ruthlessly cut out corruption from inside the church? Sort of a relgious assassin or something? Black Flame Zealots (Complete Divine) FTW.
Hellcow 06-20-07, 01:00 PM	Is it too much to ask that people think twice before saying that the Church of the Silver Flame's positive aspects are a contrast to the Catholic Church? I'm rather disappointed to see even Mr. Baker implying as much. If you think I'm implying that, Teron, you're mistaken. To begin with, the issue is that the people who draw comparisons between the Silver Flame and the Catholic Church never DO reflect on the positive aspects. I've personally NEVER seen anyone describe a Silver Flame character they've created based on Mother Teresa. I've never seen anyone talk about charitable works which have been inspired by those carried out by the Catholic church. It's always atrocities of the crusades, witch-burning, corruption, and inquisition. The LAST thing I'm implying is that those in some way reflect the core values of the Catholic church. Like the CotSF, the Catholic church has had its unfortunate incidents in the past. It has a few corrupt people among a host of good and truly dedicated ones. In sponsors good works, encourages charitable behavior, and so on. I can't go into any further detail because hey, I'm not Catholic, so I don't KNOW all the details. But the point remains that the Church of the Silver Flame is NOT the Catholic church. Good OR bad, it's wrong to try to link the two because they are utterly different. Despite the existence of cardinals and Keeper, at the end of the day the CotSF has more in common with the Jedi Knights and Men in Black than any religion of our world. It is an order empowered by a mystical, non-anthropomorphic force charged to defend the innocent from a supernatural threat that DOES exist in the world, with the secondary goal of providing inspiration and guidance to lead those innocents from the path of evil to that of virtue. I'm not saying "The fact that they encourage virtuous behavior" is a CONTRAST to the Catholic church. Of COURSE it's not! Almost all of the major religions of Earth encourage virtuous behavior, even if the practiioners may stray from that path. I'm just saying that it's a mistake TO draw comparisons between them. Good OR bad, the CotSF wasn't intended to be the Catholic church. If I note that the Church of the Silver Flame doesn't have a god that smites his enemies, I'm not saying "the God of the old Testament has no redeeming features - he's a cruel vengeful being." I'm saying that some people may be inspired by those actions to turn against the core, peaceful principles of the faith (you know, "Thou shalt not kill") and use this as a justification for, well, smiting their enemies. The Church of the Silver Flame has no such tradition. Does that mean its members can't turn against the core principles of their faith and smite enemies? No. But people should remember that the core principles of their faith ARE DIFFERENT... that the kind of thing that would be more likely to trigger this is some claim of supernatural evil or the like. If you perceive me as saying "Don't compare it to the Catholic church because the Catholic church is an evil organization," well, it's certainly not my intention. What I'm saying is "Don't compare it to the Catholic church because it's NOT the Catholic church" - nothing more, nothing less.
Hellcow 06-20-07, 01:16 PM	By the way, I'm a little disappointed at people saying that Thrane can't be responsible for atrocities because the doctrine of the Silver Flame forbids it... Again, the last thing I ever intended. If I'd wanted that, I would have said "The Church of the Silver Flame is an infalliable source for light and good in the world, and it never does anything wrong" when I wrote about it in the ECS. I didn't. Like ALL human religions, its followers aren't going to always live up to their ideals. And as noted in the first dragonshard, you're right: when it perceives that something needs to be done for the good of the many, it will act with harsh efficiency even if that threatens the lives of a smaller number of innocents. And this sort of power can lead to corruption. The last thing I'd say is that the church can do no wrong. It can do a great deal of wrong. What I've said before is that I'd be happier if the atrocities laid at the door of the church make sense by the doctrine of the Silver Flame - if you can see how the principles of the Flame led to the disaster, even if that disaster goes against other aspects of the faith. The Silver Flame is traditionally a religion that is accepting of other faiths, so "kill the unbelievers" isn't a logical thing to go wrong. "Kill the shifters because they might be werewolves" is EXACTLY the sort of thing that can easily happen. I keep saying that the lycanthropic purge wasn't the Salem Witch trial, because the werewolves WERE out there. That doesn't change the fact that something LIKE the Salem Witch trial - the pursuit of supernatural evil that ends up targeting innocents - could happen. That's EXACTLY the sort of thing that could happen in a small community dedicated to the Silver Flame. It's not that they can't carry out attrocities. It's not that people can't ignore or violate the principles of their faith. But when we're dealing with zealots, I'd like to see their actions driven by their overzealous misinterpretation of THEIR faith. And it wouldn't hurt to see a few more examples like Shadukar of the GOOD aspects of that faith - the core values - shine through. In my opinion, the last decade of the lycanthropic purge was a sheer horrorshow. At this point, we are in the witch trial phase. The threat's been contained. The (afflicted) lycanthropes probably aren't even contagious anymore. The balance of power has shifted, and now you have the Aundairians, hungry for vengeance and mad with grief, taking out their aggression on any convenient target. The Purge itself was necessary. But the last decade involved far more evil than good. But it was again inspired by the core beliefs of the Church - just twisted by the circumstances. Eberron's always about the idea that good people can do evil - and, looking to others, that evil people can do good. I'm not saying that Thrane can't commit atrocities. It's actually more likely to commit certain attrocities than others, because the Flame DOES encourage merciless action when it's seen to protect the vast number of innocents. It's all about context. And furthermore, there's more to Thrane than just the Silver Flame; people are people, and can do terrible things regardless of religion. This isn't a question of whether Thrane can do no wrong. But if that wrong is laid at the feet of people's devotion to the Flame, I'd prefer for it to be a logical progression. Likewise, it's important to remember that there were followers of the Flame across the Five Nations - that however one presents Thrane, it's NOT the sole home of the religion. When we hear about violence taken against the unbelievers... well, the problem is that they weren't necessarily unbelievers; the Silver Flame has and had a strong following in all of the Five Nations except Karrnath, and even some presence there. The fact that this is still true today DESPITE a century of war with Thrane is a symbol of the fact that the religion is one that accepts others, and that focuses on nonhuman evil. These soldiers DIDN'T desert their posts and join Thrane's cause. They weren't persecuted (well, not en masse - I'm sure there WERE incidents, especially around the time of the convlusions) by others who blamed them for the actions of Thrane, or dismissed by their commanders. The Silver Flame was founded in the defense of the innocent, not in political aspiration. While it has BECOME a theocracy, that doesn't mean that every follower of the Flame feels that he owes his political loyalty to Thrane - even if he still respects the SPIRITUAL authority and wisdom of the Keeper. To me, it's all about balance. If I wanted the CotSF to be a perfect infalliable organization, an unsullied bastion of good, I could have written it that way. It's not perfect. The only reason I'm constantly speaking in its defense is because so few people - even among Eberron writers - seem to be able to see both sides of it. If the vast majority of people were talking about how the lycanthropic purge was the most perfect thing ever, I'm be calling attention to the innocents who were killed and the horrors at the end. It's not black or white, but if people only see the black, I need to point to the white.
Hellcow 06-20-07, 03:06 PM	Again, thanks a lot for the reply, Keith! I particularily like the idea that many templars might have joined Q'Barra. Any chance we can get WotC to declare these comments official? ;) From a board thread? Not likely. If I wrote up another dragonshard or something, certainly. But part of the issue there is "Does the world need another Dragonshard about how the Silver Flame isn't as bad as you might think?" - and furthermore "How many people would ever read it?" The Purge dragonshard pretty clearly spells out that the Purge wasn't a one-sided witchhunt. It's one that went through fairly significant descussion with the design group, as these things go. But obviously there's a lot of people out there who haven't ever read it. The only thing that's likely to make a difference is another sourcebook, and I don't honestly see another sourcebook that WOULD be a logical place to include this sort of information. My big writeup on the Archbishop of Thaliost would be what I'd have done if I had written Five Nations. But hey, it's already been written, and with all the other important topics to cover, we really don't need a Five Nations II. I'm REALLY going to try to let this drop now - I've spent far more time than I have available posting here. I do want to reiterate that I think Wolfgang is an excellent writer, and I am very impressed with the quality of ALL the material I've read in FoW. For whatever reason he chose to take a harsher path with the CotSF than I would, but I'm sure it made sense in his eyes; as others have said, the detail woven into most of the chapter does suggest a close level of research. I may take a different path in my campaign, focusing on the chaos caused by the influx of zealous immigrants and playing up the role of the templars in some way, but I can still use the material that's there for inspiration and examples of the lowest points - since as I say in the previous post, the last thing I'd say is that Thrane or the CotSF are somehow incapable of doing anything wrong. Personally, I hope I get a chance to chat with him at GenCon (if not on the boards), just to exchange views. But I think he - and Ari and James - did a really outstanding job here.
Euangelion 06-20-07, 03:39 PM	Again, thanks a lot for the reply, Keith! I particularily like the idea that many templars might have joined Q'Barra. Any chance we can get WotC to declare these comments official? ;) Sure, in a "Wild Lands of Khorvaire" sourcebook, or some such thing, that includes greater detail on the "other" nations of Khorvaire. Now, when such a book will come out...:waits:
Nived 06-20-07, 04:14 PM	I was just at my Friendly Local Geek Shop to pick up my weekly haul of comics and got a chance to flip through Forge of War (couldn't pick it up I only had $20 in my pocket). While I wasn't able to go over it with a fine tooth comb the bits I did skim over seemed good (whcih was mainly the Dragonmarked Houses section). Also Wayne Reynold's splash page was sweet as usual.
Brastan 06-20-07, 05:35 PM	I find it interesting that Keeper Serrain was a temp. I may be reading it wrong(or the faint super glue smell of the pages is getting to my head) but it seemed like Serrain was not chosen by the Flame. He got the job because the Flame either didn't point one out or the real Keeper couldn't be found. I've also started looking at the Convolutions as issue of rampant nationalism. I don't see a religious reason for it, based on the tents of the CotSF. Not even a misinterpreted one. Serrain's backing of Thalin's very nationalistic interpretation of his vision seemed to me to play to Thrane nationalism. That was the real spark of the Convolutions in my view. Out of control nationalism is just as bad as religious extremism. Combine the two and you have a wonderful recipe for atrocity.
Edymnion 06-20-07, 07:54 PM	Honestly, the Convulsions part isn't that bad, IMO. I can see some "growing pains", and if read with an attitude of it being more limited, it can work. It only gets bad when it seems to mention every time the Silver Flame comes up how they did forced conversions. But anyway, I got time to finish reading the book, and overall I do think its an excellent book, even with the bad Silver Flame material, and I do like how it tried to tackle time travel. The scars bit was good too. Definately a good book to have for martial classes, just so you can sound like you know what you're talking about better. One thing I really liked was the magic item set, the Regalia of Galifar. I hadn't thought of doing the whole "kingdom stronger than the sum of it's parts" thing and making each of the 5 nations a piece of the set. That was just very well done. Almost enough to make me want to play "a lost heir of Galifar" just so I can put a set of that together and try to reunite the kingdom.
davethebrave371 06-20-07, 08:09 PM	I hadn't thought of doing the whole "kingdom stronger than the sum of it's parts" thing and making each of the 5 nations a piece of the set. That was just very well done. Almost enough to make me want to play "a lost heir of Galifar" just so I can put a set of that together and try to reunite the kingdom. Or have the players do a quest to fetch the crown for Oargev. Upon returning, the Prince has four more quests lined up for you...
ArcTan 06-21-07, 01:59 AM	That's a fair interpretation, but how would you explain that until 994 YK, he was, by Five Nations, a decent and idealistic guy? I dunno. Something changed. Things happen to people. Perhaps there was a very direct threat to the very survival of the Flame that we civilians don't know about, that shook his faith in the Flame to the core. Not his faith that the Flame was good, but his faith that the Flame could survive for long in this world without compromise, without someone doing what needs to be done. And agent for the Lords of Dust? No. An agent for the Lords of Dust is someone who willingly follows them. Krozen doesn't. He's still firmly convinced he acts for the good of the Flame. He may be a dupe of the Lords of Dust, but not an agent. You misunderstand. I'm not describing Krozen, I'm describing how Krozen sees *others* whom he categorizes as threats. I actually consider it unlikely that Krozen is being directly controlled by the Lords of Dust in any way. I consider it far more likely that he does a great deal of evil by misidentifying people as agents of the Lords of Dust who are merely exerting free will and normal human failings.
Syltorian 06-21-07, 03:21 AM	I dunno. Something changed. Things happen to people. Perhaps there was a very direct threat to the very survival of the Flame that we civilians don't know about, that shook his faith in the Flame to the core. That's a good idea too. Do you have any ideas what that might have been? There could be a good adventure idea in there. Not his faith that the Flame was good, but his faith that the Flame could survive for long in this world without compromise, without someone doing what needs to be done. That's an interesting, and also truly terrifying concept. You misunderstand. I'm not describing Krozen, I'm describing how Krozen sees *others* whom he categorizes as threats. Oops. Yes, I did misunderstand that, and now I reread it, what you actually meant makes much more sense than what my brain tried to interpret. My apologies for that. Yes, I agree that he would consider every minor threat, everything that seems to weaken Thrane's unity, or even disagreement in that way. I'd still say that he sees more dangers than the Lords of Dust, though they are high on his agenda. As the Mourning (whatever caused it) seems, as I read it in Five Nations, to be the direct cause of his 'fall', so I'd still take that as his reason to try to remove anything and everything that seems to weaken the 'armour' of the Church in however little a way, even if all they do is cause some discontent by trying to bring Queen Diani back to full power.
Godu 06-21-07, 07:06 PM	I created this affiliation a while back and posted it on these boards but have no clue what happened to the Affiliation thread, it seems to have been dropped. So I will repost it here. This is a positive affiliation to use with the CotSF, a Red Cross if you will for Eberron. Hopefully it will offer some play ideas both for characters and as an NPC organization to run into. Order of the Red Rose of Thrane and Order of the Dark Rose Symbol: A red rose superimposed upon the Silver Flame or a red rose climbing an upright sword. The Dark Rose is exactly the same but the flower is black or grey. “We are the flower of the flame, we wind our way through the world to show the beauty of the flame but bear thorns to pierce the plans of evil. We serve Keeper and Flame.” Affiliation Score Modifier: Character level bonus +˝ PC’s level Is a priest or adept of The Church +2 Commendation from a district leader +1 Aided a member of the order in need +2 Per successful mission on behalf of the order +2 Have undertaken a mission outside of Thrane +4 5 Ranks in Heal or any Craft Skill +1 10 Ranks in Heal or any Craft Skill +2 Can cast cure spells +3 Commendation from The Keeper +6 Recruits new members +1 per 10 Has dedicated at least 10 years to the Order +2 Attends Class at Order School +1/class Does not have Heal or a relevant Craft Skill -2 Fails to uphold the best traditions of the Order -2 Misuses Order Resources -4 Is found to be involved with corrupt or illegal activities -10 Background, Goals, and Dreams: The Order of the Red Rose (and its subsidiary, the Dark Rose) was initially formed during the Lycanthrope Purge, growing to its present size during the Last War. The original members of this order were those who worked outside of Thrane, mainly in Aundair, Cyre and Breland during the Purge and who focused as much on winning the hearts and minds of a suspicious populace as fighting lycanthropes. During the Last War they became more of a fighting order but continued to give aid and succor to the common folk of Thrane or her allies, whenever they could. Following the Treaty of Thronehold, the Red Rose has attempted to return to its roots and emphasize its good works and disaster relief over its fighting ability. In many places they have attempted to form bonds with House Jorasco but the Halflings’ focus on business instead of charity has limited their success. The members of the Order desire to spread the worship of the Silver Flame throughout the world and believe that the best way to do this is to lead by example, showing how those truly dedicated to the flame live as opposed to evangelizing. Despite their fervent desire to convert everyone to the Flame, they understand that people resent the holier-than-thou attitude of many of the more evangelical members of the church and mock the church when they learn of those who have been corrupted by power or evil. Members of the Red Rose dedicate their lives to living as purely and as simply as they can. Those who are able go forth, seek out, and fight evil creatures and organizations but at the same time they, and others less war-like in the Order, seek to aid those in need. They will heal the sick and injured for little or no cost, provide food to the hungry, and help rebuild villages and houses, for those displaced by war and disaster. (In many ways they are similar to the Red Cross and other relief organizations.) The Red Rose receives annual funds from the Church of the Silver Flame and the Keeper of the Flame is made aware of their missions. Fund drives will be held on a national level, to deal with particular emergencies and disasters. Affiliation Score Title: Benefits and Duties < 3 Volunteer Member 4 - 11 Member: You receive and may wear at all times the flame and rose pin of the Order. You can make a request for Order resources and expect that the request will be considered. You may add heal or any one (relevant) craft skill to your Class Skills list. 12 - 21 Local Organizer: You are the leader of the Order for a small town or rural district or part of a council for a larger city. You gain a +2 Circumstance bonus when dealing with other members of the Order and with allies/friends of the Order. 22 - 29General: You are the leader of a regional council or a senior member of such a council. You may call for and organize a relief effort at your own discretion. You gain a +4 Circumstance bonus when dealing with other members of the Order and with allies/friends of the Order. You gain a +1 bonus to heal or to any one craft skill you have. 30 or moreMajor General: You gain the assistance of three 4th level experts or classed individuals to assist you in your duties. You are usually asked to oversee a regional or city council and to command relief efforts. You can get an audience with the Keeper or the Council of Cardinals 1d8 days after you request it. You gain a +6 circumstance bonus on attempts to influence the attitude of other order members. The Order of the Dark Rose is far less well known than that of the Red Rose. Most of the bishops and cardinals within the Church have at least heard of it but few know its real aims and motives. Most believe that it is merely the militant wing of the Red Rose, dedicated to protecting members of the Order during their work; very few realize how closely the Order watches them. The Order of the Dark Rose focuses on protecting the members of the Red Rose and actively fighting evil. The Dark Rose aggressively battles corruption within the Church and is as likely to carry out an investigation of a fallen bishop as to send a strike team against an aberration threatening a village. Members of the Dark Rose tend to believe that the secular power, assumed by the church, has allowed corruption and greed to worm its way into the councils of cardinals and most are ambivalent about the continued control of secular power in Thrane by the religious authority of the Keeper. Members: Anyone may be a member of the Red Rose and hundreds of ordinary Thranes (and to a lesser extent those in other nations) belong to the Order as Citizen Volunteers. These individuals are the people who provide the person-power, donations, and grass-roots dedication that allow the organization to function. Generally these people operate only within their immediate locale but some may become “pilgrims” and travel to disaster areas in other nations to assist recovery. Those individuals more dedicated and experienced may spend many years on missions, helping people and demonstrating what it means to be a worshiper of the Flame. These adepts, priests, clerics, experts, and lay people bring more members to the Flame then any similarly sized group in the Church. Members of the Dark Rose consist almost entirely of clerics, paladins, and fighters with a smattering of other classes, mainly rogues, present. These individuals are almost entirely of Thranish descent and most fought for Thrane in the Last War. On many occasions members of this order wear the simple pin of the Red Rose, only using the Dark Rose when among themselves or on a specific mission. The Dark Rose generally works to remain mysterious and secretive, even among the members of the Red Rose and the Church as a whole. There are only a few of these special individuals, so in many cases a Dark Rose may utilize the resources and personnel of the Red Rose to achieve their goals. Enemies and Allies: Naturally all those dedicated to evil, especially those aberrant worshipers of the Dragon Below and Blood of Vol, are the most reliable and consistent foes of this Order. People of nations other than Thrane tend to view this Order with suspicion and distrust and many in power feel that the Order somehow seeks to spread the dominion of Thrane along with that of the Silver Flame. However, most of the common people view the Red Rose with favor due to the help and assistance that its members freely offer in times of need and disaster. Even priests of the Sovereign Host respect the Red Rose and its endeavors while still cursing it for converting their followers. Surprisingly, or not, some of the most fervent opponents to this Order are members of the Church of the Silver Flame. Those priests, bishops, and cardinals who exercise dubious methods in their service to the Flame, and even more so those who have fallen from the true worship of the Flame, distrust the members of the Order, seek to reduce its funding, and may even secretly move against it. Many times this distrust is due to the secretive nature of the Dark Rose subsidiary, whose deeds are attributed to the Red Rose as a whole; however, those in power who have turned to evil (mainly those who no longer follow the Flame but some within the Flame as well) know the Order is a direct threat to them. These individuals may well hire assassins and monsters in an attempt to eliminate members of both the Red and Dark Rose, if they feel they can escape notice and/or they believe that they have fallen under suspicion of the Order. Type: Temple, spy ring, NGO Scale: 14 (Centered in Thrane the Order operates Houses throughout the nations recognized by the Treaty of Thronehold as well as the Shadow Marches. They are not welcome in Droaam or Darguun, generally.) [I]Executive Powers: Crusade, Gift, Inquisition (Dark Rose) Affiliation Score Criteria: To become a member of the Red Rose, it is only necessary to offer your services as a volunteer to the local area director. These volunteer members are generally given a short introductory lecture on the goals and purposes of the Red Rose and receive a day or so of training on how to respond to disaster. The director also adds the new member to his list of resources along with any skills or training the new member may have. Members who wish to work outside of their area or provide additional services may take month-long classes at one of the regional Order Houses to learn logistical skills, healing, counseling, and other disaster appropriate skills. Members who show promise, work diligently, and attend several classes can rise in the ranks of the Order. Members of the Dark Rose may or may not have been members of the Red Rose prior to their acceptance in this sub-order. Inductees are generally chosen by other members of the Dark Rose and may not even be aware that they are under consideration. While many members of the Dark Rose may have high affiliation scores within the Order they do not generally fill the visible positions of leaders of the Red Rose but are treated with the respect and deference that such leaders are shown (that is if the Dark Rose member is even recognized as someone other than an important member of the Red Rose).
Neutronium_Dragon 06-23-07, 12:20 AM	This may be re-igniting the other issue, but I noticed that Droaam's forces make regular use of lycanthropes according to FoW, both wererats among some of the normal units and one elite brigade of high-powered ones. I may be reading a bit too much into things like the use of "foul beasts" in it, but the vibe I get from the Droaam section does seem to push the sense that orcs, gnolls, and the like are just evil monsters that exist to be chopped up by the good guys in generic-setting style, rather than being presented as at least approaching standard race status in the setting as has generally been the case in other books and in the Dragonshards.
Nived 06-23-07, 12:25 AM	Orcs are mainly int he Shadow Marshes not Droaam but I can see your point. My answer is... there's a reason they weren't recognised at the Treaty of Thronehold. They might have a working society... but they still fought very dirty. They had despicable unholy powers and they USED THEM!
ArcTan 06-23-07, 01:33 AM	This may be re-igniting the other issue, but I noticed that Droaam's forces make regular use of lycanthropes according to FoW, both wererats among some of the normal units and one elite brigade of high-powered ones. I may be reading a bit too much into things like the use of "foul beasts" in it, but the vibe I get from the Droaam section does seem to push the sense that orcs, gnolls, and the like are just evil monsters that exist to be chopped up by the good guys in generic-setting style, rather than being presented as at least approaching standard race status in the setting as has generally been the case in other books and in the Dragonshards. First of all, Orcs don't count as one of the "monster races" of Droaam. They're Humanoids, and treated as people -- if second-class citizens -- by humans, not lumped into the same category as the genuinely "monstrous" Minotaurs and Gnolls and Hags and things. Secondly, Lycanthropes are *exactly* the kind of races the Daughters of Sora Kell would recruit into Droaam. It's supposed to be a place for monsters who've been outcast by the civilized races and forced to fight to survive. I don't see how that contradicts their previous flavor at all, unless you think that Lycanthropes somehow count as an "atrocity" for Droaam in some way, or that Lycanthropes are "foul beasts" in a way that Trolls and Ettercaps and Dusk Hags aren't.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-23-07, 08:39 AM	The trouble is that the Droaam entry specifically lists orcs when referring to the inhabitants as "foul beasts", ("...all manner of foul beasts, from tribes of gnolls and orcs to...") which doesn't quite fit how orcs are typically seen in Eberron. And the way that it talks about Droaamites in general comes across as more negative than earlier material. On the other point, yes, lycanthropes are a great candidate for recruitment to Droaam, but I was noting their presence mainly because there was the subject of lycanthropes in Eberron earlier in the thread. They're obviously still around in enough numbers in Droaam to be employed as a regular part of the forces, which suggests that they're not as rare as has generally been thought...
Nived 06-23-07, 10:51 AM	Well you could go with how Orc were presented in Droaam in The Grieving Tree (second novel in the Dragon Below series). They were slaves.
Hellcow 06-23-07, 04:26 PM	They're obviously still around in enough numbers in Droaam to be employed as a regular part of the forces, which suggests that they're not as rare as has generally been thought... Droaam is the bastion of lycanthropy on Khorvaire, as noted in the description of the Dark Pack in the ECS. With that said, I'll note that the FoW says "This assassination sqaud is rarely seen on the battlefield." While this is in part because it's an assassination squad, another reason is because it's dangerous for Droaam to push this too far. In any case, the ECS establishes the presence of lycanthropic forces in Droaam; this doesn't alter their scarcity across the Five Nations.
Hellcow 06-23-07, 04:34 PM	Well you could go with how Orc were presented in Droaam in The Grieving Tree (second novel in the Dragon Below series). They were slaves. Traditionally, Droaam has always been a land where the strong rule the weak (with a few notable exceptions). The Daughters of Sora Kell have shifted things; they certainly have the threat of great force to back them up, but Sora Katra has been working to create a sense of national identity. They rarely interfere with local warlords, so an ogre mage may certainly dominate his subjects through fear, but the creatures who have flocked to the Great Crag to serve the Daughters personally are driven by that sense of new opportunity and newfound national purpose. So in Droaam, you have orcs long enslaved by more powerful creatures, free orcs fiercely devoted to the cause of the Daughters, and orcs working on behalf of House Tharashk... and, for that matter, you may have an orc warlord who has established his rule over OTHER creatures.
Archangel62 06-24-07, 09:19 AM	Droaam is the bastion of lycanthropy on Khorvaire, as noted in the description of the Dark Pack in the ECS. With that said, I'll note that the FoW says "This assassination sqaud is rarely seen on the battlefield." While this is in part because it's an assassination squad, another reason is because it's dangerous for Droaam to push this too far. In any case, the ECS establishes the presence of lycanthropic forces in Droaam; this doesn't alter their scarcity across the Five Nations. I would point out though that I was rather surprised to see a wereboar barbarian as a random encounter, in Breland, in the Whispers of the Vampire Blade module.
yrogerg 06-24-07, 12:29 PM	The trouble is that the Droaam entry specifically lists orcs when referring to the inhabitants as "foul beasts", ("...all manner of foul beasts, from tribes of gnolls and orcs to...") which doesn't quite fit how orcs are typically seen in Eberron. And the way that it talks about Droaamites in general comes across as more negative than earlier material. On the other point, yes, lycanthropes are a great candidate for recruitment to Droaam, but I was noting their presence mainly because there was the subject of lycanthropes in Eberron earlier in the thread. They're obviously still around in enough numbers in Droaam to be employed as a regular part of the forces, which suggests that they're not as rare as has generally been thought... One thing that makes them an even *better* candidate for recruitment for Droaam is the oft-overlooked fact that Giants are valid targets for the template. Can we say Troll Dire Wereboar?
Euangelion 06-24-07, 12:29 PM	I would point out though that I was rather surprised to see a wereboar barbarian as a random encounter, in Breland, in the Whispers of the Vampire Blade module. Well, it's possible, just rather unlikely. They're rare in other parts of Khorvaire, not extinct. That reminds me of the random encounter table in Explorers Handbook that has Tanari'i demons all over the Demon Wastes. Woops.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-24-07, 03:17 PM	> I would point out though that I was rather surprised to see a wereboar > barbarian as a random encounter, in Breland, in the Whispers of the Vampire > Blade module. That reminds me - there's also a weretiger who is a Karrnathi intelligence agent in the "kicks in the door" table in that adventure. (As if Karrnath wasn't already sufficiently at odds with Thrane...)
Hellcow 06-24-07, 05:03 PM	WotVB was Dave Noonan's first work for Eberron. I'd attribute the unusual presence of lycanthropes to exactly that. He didn't realize they were supposed to be rarer than in other settings, and the editor didn't notice it. With that said, as has been pointed out, they AREN'T extinct, and there are a few significant enclaves (Droaam being foremost among them). So you COULD run into the random wereboar; it's just extremely unusual, and ESPECIALLY if it's a "random violence" sort of guy, any templar (remember, they come from Aundair and Breland too - there's followers of the Flame in ALL of the Five Nations, though they have a very weak presence in Karrnath) would try to stop him. Of course, if he IS a random violence guy, he's also showing WHY the public fears lycanthropes...
Neutronium_Dragon 06-24-07, 10:54 PM	The appearance of the weretiger working for Karrnathi intelligence actually made me think that perhaps some of the intelligence organizations had sheltered a few lycanthropes from the purge in order to retain the use of their capabilities. (And whether Karrnath was alone in doing this or others might have too, it'd be a great way to provoke renewed tensions in the current cold war if it was discovered...) Edit: Heh. This train of thought just led me to the idea of a campaign based around a similar idea to that old Bureau (somenumber) game, with the party being the agents.
Hellcow 06-25-07, 12:39 AM	The appearance of the weretiger working for Karrnathi intelligence actually made me think that perhaps some of the intelligence organizations had sheltered a few lycanthropes from the purge in order to retain the use of their capabilities. Certainly. Same sort of principle as intelligence agencies using aberrant-marked people. With that said, a few thoughts. First, remember that the Church of the Silver Flame and Thrane are two separate entities. Thrane is a theocracy dedicated to the church and the seat of its religious leader, but there are templars of the Flame in Aundair and Breland, dedicated to protecting the innocents of THEIR nations from what they perceive to be a dire supernatural threat. Karrnath has the easiest time doing something like this, because the CotSF has very little influence there. But there are local templars in the other nations who may pursue what they perceive to be dangerous lycanthropes. Not that it can't be done - but they've got enemies in countries besides Thrane. And there's plenty of people aside from the Silver Flame who are frightened of 'thropes; they've just heard the horror stories of the Purge, and lacking the appropriate knowledge skills, THEY don't know that afflicteds can't pass on the curse, that there's good 'thropes, and all that. The second is that in my opinion such an agent would have to be a natural lycanthrope. Intelligence gathering is delicate work and is going to require a level of trust on the part of the government. An afflicted lycanthrope is (IMO) going to be driven by the curse, and these impulses will outweigh any previous loyalties. Personally, I think intelligence work is a little odd for a non-urban 'thrope (IE, I can easily see wererat spies), but natural 'thropes have more leeway in overcoming their mystical instincts. This is not to say that you can't have afflicted mercenaries or the like. I'm just saying that in my opinion their loyalties will be very tenuous; the werewolf's love of the kill and loyalty to his pack will always outweigh any loyalty he might have to your nation, and there's always the chance he will set aside the mission in favor of his personal agenda. In the case of the wererats in Droaam, I'd say that their work typically lets them indulge their love of killing, and also that Droaam's not exactly the most disciplined nation to begin with; an agent going astray won't come as a tremendous shock. And, of course, Droaam has no Church of the Silver Flame to decry the dangers of such a practice. So: I can see the weretiger agent existing, especially in Karrnath... but I'd see her as being an exceptional and rare agent, someone who's had to work to earn the trust of her employers... not a member of a vast weretiger corps. Though with THAT said, I can certainly see it having been tried in the past - get the loyal natural 'thrope to infect other trusted agents - only to be abandoned when the afflicted agents proved uncontrollable. In fact, I love the idea that there ARE a few highly-trained lycanthrope spies and assassins out their operating on their own, hunted both by the Silver Flame and their former employers. Aside from their skills who knows what dangerous secrets they possess?
Azazyll 06-25-07, 10:54 AM	I loved this book. I thought I would be disappointed with the low crunch content (and I would have liked to have seen more, since I actually like the expanded prc format only in eberron books) but the fluff more than made up for it. The only thing I didn't like about the silver flame was how the bowcraft was completely forgotten. Other than that, I prefer my silver flame this way. I chalk it up to a win for the dark voice in the flame. What I liked best of all, however, was how the various entries reminded you that no one came out of the war ahead. a century of conflict isn't good for anyone's business. everyone hurt, everyone is tired. The constant examples of the strain and internecine fighting on every level and in every area was also a great ambiance touch. I really like the direction this book has taken eberron. It's been a little too bright-and-shiny future in most sourcebooks, with the role of the war forgotten. This one brought it all back to the central conflict
Teron Gorefiend 06-25-07, 05:40 PM	If you perceive me as saying "Don't compare it to the Catholic church because the Catholic church is an evil organization," well, it's certainly not my intention. What I'm saying is "Don't compare it to the Catholic church because it's NOT the Catholic church" - nothing more, nothing less. OK, fair enough. I don't remember exactly what you said that I interpretated that way and I'm not going to dig through the thread looking for excuses to be offended. Consider me corrected and very grateful for your input. If I may, in turn, make a clarification, I'd like to mention that the Catholic Church does assert the existence of supernatural evil, although it's rather less obvious than packs of rampaging lycanthropes and the struggle against it is spiritual rather than physical. In fact, exorcism is still a supported practice with formal, albeit rarely used, procedures. P.S.: I've pretty much destroyed whatever "gamer cred" I had, haven't I?
Archangel62 06-25-07, 06:17 PM	Of course, if he IS a random violence guy, he's also showing WHY the public fears lycanthropes... I don't disagree with that, my problem was more that he was wandering near a well traveled road, something like that just sort of irked me a bit from the internal consistency thing. I can understand how and why it happened, like I said it just annoyed me, and it also annoyed the player whos bard got killed by it.
AkumaDaimyo 06-25-07, 07:13 PM	I have a question about religion in the last war. If two Silver Flame worshipers are on other sides of the battlefield then what? They just kill each other as normal? What about other religions like the Soverign Host? What did the evil religions do during the war?
Revvecor 06-25-07, 07:27 PM	I have a question about religion in the last war. If two Silver Flame worshipers are on other sides of the battlefield then what? They just kill each other as normal? What about other religions like the Sovereign Host? What did the evil religions do during the war? 1) Members of the silver flame on opposing sides of a battle would probably fight and kill each other while following the code of ethics of there religion. 2) Members of the Sovereign Host would more than likely side with there country of origin, given the large amount of nationalism that exists through most of Khorvaire. 3) Followers of the dark six were probably mercenaries, given there predisposition to kill without the moral and ethical boundaries of those worshipers of the Sovereign Host & silver flame. According to the Faiths of Eberron the dark six was able to intermingle with many of the different factions of the war, thus drastically increasing its membership.
AkumaDaimyo 06-25-07, 08:27 PM	Hmm thus the Last War was quite the tragedy. But be interesting to see a fight between two Paladins of oposing sides. I bet they wish they had a "smite oposing nation" feat. :P
Hellcow 06-25-07, 08:43 PM	If I may, in turn, make a clarification, I'd like to mention that the Catholic Church does assert the existence of supernatural evil, although it's rather less obvious than packs of rampaging lycanthropes and the struggle against it is spiritual rather than physical. In fact, exorcism is still a supported practice with formal, albeit rarely used, procedures. Absolutely! What I said a few pages back is that the war against supernatural evil is "more than the work of a handful of exorcists" - because certainly TODAY, it's not exactly front and center. Back in the day, it was considered to be a very significant part of daily life. I've based a number of adventures on saint's lives - after all, our history (and mythology and folklore) is what gave birth to our modern ideas of fantasy. With that said, that's my point: Eberron is a world in which that supernatural evil exists in a solid, coherent form. We KNOW vampires are out there. As a normal peasant, anyone around me could be a vampire, doppelganger, werewolf, rakshasa, or possessed by a Quori spirit - and that's just looking at things that can look human. It's a scary world. So with THAT in mind, let me call up another comment that could be easily misunderstood... Thus we get people focusing on smiting the unbeliever, crusades, etc because in OUR world, that's what the Catholic church did. Reading this again, it's easy to see how this could be completely misinterpreted. I wasn't trying to say "Killing people is what the Catholic church does." My point was that when people think of the church engaging in military action, they think of it fighting heretics or seeking to spread the faith. It fights humans, because humans are all we have to fight. But that doesn't mean that it's a faith based on or glorifying violence. Let's face it, basic principles are "Thou shalt not kill" and "Leave vengeance to the Lord." Yes, the Crusades happened. But so did many selfless deeds and acts of virtue and charity. Taken as a whole, Christianity is not supposed to be a militant religion; on some occasions or among a few people it has become an outlet for human aggression, but that runs counter to many underlying values of the faith. The CotSF is a militant religion. It was born from a war against a demon lord who threatened Galifar, and today the templars fight anything from demons to, for example, wereboar barbarians attacking random travelers in Breland. As a result, it has codes of military conduct clearly defined in its principles of faith. The hierarchy of evil from Faiths of Eberron clearly states the order of enemies; even if we decide the Karrns are evil people, they're still far down the list from rakshasa or vampires. The CotSF is founded on war - thus it does address exactly who you're supposed to be fighting and how you're supposed to handle it. As I've said all along, atrocities can happen. Christianity IS a religion based on principles of charity and peace. Turn the other cheek. Love thy neighbor. Feed and cloth lepers. The same is true of most of the major successful religions of our world: noble principles, marred by a small handful who tarnish the reputation of the whole. The puritans and the Silver Torch are the zealots and bigots of the Silver Flame, whose actions tarnish the church. But they are the minority, just as in our world. Anyhow: I'm not trying to say that followers of the Silver Flame can't take actions that run counter to their faith... especially if those actions are taken in pursuit of the national interests of Thrane instead of in accordance with the spiritual doctrine of the faith. I'm not saying that Christianity is a religion that encourages violence or denies the existence of supernatural evil. I'm just saying that despite some high-level similarities common to many religions and the use of titles like "cardinal" and "templar", the two religions are actually quite different, and any attempt to link them too closely together is likely to produce dissonance and innacuracy. P.S.: I've pretty much destroyed whatever "gamer cred" I had, haven't I? How? I would have thought arguing with me GAVE you gamer cred.
AkumaDaimyo 06-25-07, 09:08 PM	Arguing with Hellcow just to be cool might destroy your cred though.
Teron Gorefiend 06-25-07, 11:36 PM	Thanks again for your thoughts, Mister Baker. As usual, they are delightfully reasoned. How? I would have thought arguing with me GAVE you gamer cred. Sweet! I was just paranoid about the religion issue, actually. I've seen some widespread, low-key antipathy towards theism on these forums; collectively, gamers seem somewhat embittered towards Christianity. Revealing that I'm a practising Catholic by standing up for the faith feels like the role-player's equivalent to coming out of the closet by marching in the gay pride parade. In any case, I'm going to pray for all of you tonight, and there's nothing you can do about it. :P
yrogerg 06-26-07, 12:10 AM	Sweet! I was just paranoid about the religion issue, actually. I've seen some widespread, low-key antipathy towards theism on these forums; collectively, gamers seem somewhat embittered towards Christianity. Revealing that I'm a practising Catholic by standing up for the faith feels like the role-player's equivalent to coming out of the closet by marching in the gay pride parade. In any case, I'm going to pray for all of you tonight, and there's nothing you can do about it. :P That's alright; you're not alone, and I, for one, have noticed proportionally more theists here than in the general boards. My suspicion is that something about the way the gods and belief are treated in Eberron that is a minor draw. At very least, I've seen a lot of self-identified athiests in the main boards complaining about it.
graymocker 06-26-07, 08:39 AM	That's alright; you're not alone, and I, for one, have noticed proportionally more theists here than in the general boards. My suspicion is that something about the way the gods and belief are treated in Eberron that is a minor draw. At very least, I've seen a lot of self-identified athiests in the main boards complaining about it. I think it's funny that you would say that, because as a skeptic one of the things that I find most attractive about Eberron is that it pays attention to how religious institutions affect the world in material, secular ways. Other RP campaign settings generally devote more time to what the gods themselves are doing while more or less ignoring the practical material reality of their various churches. For example, in FR there's an abundance of lore about the actions of the deities themselves - "Mystra decided to have a sit-down with Cyric today" etc. etc. - and very little about how their respective religious institutions function, practically speaking. To the extent that there are religious institutions at all, they are simply extensions of the deity's character. Eberron cares about what the church as an institution is doing, while the gods themselves are only vague, mythical entities. What's more, while the "divine" obviously exists, Eberron suggests that to some extent the gods of the world are social constructs (or, at the very least, currently prevailing notions of divinity are social constructs subject to the whims of historical context and fashion). You certainly don't have the same absurd level of biographical detail that FR deities have. Instead, divine forces are ambiguous, shrouded in the distant past, and subject to changing mortal interpretation. All of which makes it more "real" and potent as allegory to me, and satisfies the rationalist in me. Eberron: "Finally, something atheists and theists can agree on!"
Euangelion 06-26-07, 10:08 AM	Thanks again for your thoughts, Mister Baker. As usual, they are delightfully reasoned. Sweet! I was just paranoid about the religion issue, actually. I've seen some widespread, low-key antipathy towards theism on these forums; collectively, gamers seem somewhat embittered towards Christianity. Revealing that I'm a practising Catholic by standing up for the faith feels like the role-player's equivalent to coming out of the closet by marching in the gay pride parade. In any case, I'm going to pray for all of you tonight, and there's nothing you can do about it. :P I know what you mean. Of course, while I'm not Catholic, my identity has always been front and center on these boards, at least for anyone who reads Greek or has bothered to look up on Google what "euangelion" means. ;) (For the record, I used "Euangelion" because that was the name I gave my Baldur's Gate character 10 years ago. Wait, 10 years!?! I'm so old...)
yrogerg 06-26-07, 08:54 PM	I think it's funny that you would say that, because as a skeptic one of the things that I find most attractive about Eberron is that it pays attention to how religious institutions affect the world in material, secular ways. Other RP campaign settings generally devote more time to what the gods themselves are doing while more or less ignoring the practical material reality of their various churches. For example, in FR there's an abundance of lore about the actions of the deities themselves - "Mystra decided to have a sit-down with Cyric today" etc. etc. - and very little about how their respective religious institutions function, practically speaking. To the extent that there are religious institutions at all, they are simply extensions of the deity's character. Eberron cares about what the church as an institution is doing, while the gods themselves are only vague, mythical entities. What's more, while the "divine" obviously exists, Eberron suggests that to some extent the gods of the world are social constructs (or, at the very least, currently prevailing notions of divinity are social constructs subject to the whims of historical context and fashion). You certainly don't have the same absurd level of biographical detail that FR deities have. Instead, divine forces are ambiguous, shrouded in the distant past, and subject to changing mortal interpretation. All of which makes it more "real" and potent as allegory to me, and satisfies the rationalist in me. Eberron: "Finally, something atheists and theists can agree on!" I believe that you may be a great deal more thoughtful than many in these forums. In particular, I've seen the sentiment thrown around in the main boards that "Eberron doesn't make sense because why would you believe in the gods if there's no evidence they exist?", as though a great deal of the world doesn't have strong religious belief in exactly those circumstances. What I like about treatment of religion in Eberron is that by keeping the gods largely silent, as opposed to FR and Greyhawk's gods, it creates a setting where faith is extremely important to religious devotion, rather than religion being marked by a similar relationship to that we have with our governments: we pay them (in taxes or prayers, depending on which we're talking about) and expect them to do stuff for us in exchange. It's an extremely shallow way to treat religion, and it reduces gods to being extremely big, powerful humans in ways that honestly make them far less interesting.
davethebrave371 06-26-07, 11:07 PM	I believe that you may be a great deal more thoughtful than many in these forums. In particular, I've seen the sentiment thrown around in the main boards that "Eberron doesn't make sense because why would you believe in the gods if there's no evidence they exist?", as though a great deal of the world doesn't have strong religious belief in exactly those circumstances. What I like about treatment of religion in Eberron is that by keeping the gods largely silent, as opposed to FR and Greyhawk's gods, it creates a setting where faith is extremely important to religious devotion, rather than religion being marked by a similar relationship to that we have with our governments: we pay them (in taxes or prayers, depending on which we're talking about) and expect them to do stuff for us in exchange. It's an extremely shallow way to treat religion, and it reduces gods to being extremely big, powerful humans in ways that honestly make them far less interesting. God, I'm glad I don't go on the main boards very often. *shudder* Gotta say though, the first time I played FR (back in 2e) the DM had made it so that gods were just like Eberron gods. It changed a whole whack of FR history into myth instead of fact (or changed it outright, depending). I liked it. Second time I played was normal, and it was like..."Ugh. This isn't faith." BUT, when I played Planescape, I loved that the gods were that way. Mostly because you get to encounter them as NPCs when travelling the planes. As you may or may not gather from my userpic, my favourite Faction is the Sign of One, as they were of the mind that anyone could be a deity, which, in the Great Wheel, is technically true. Anyone can...question is, are they able to? Probably get killed in the process, etc. But still, it made for a good, fun romp through the planes. Eberron, however, is a different flavour and I love it that way. My players will never know if I intend for there to be actual deific forces or not (not even sure I've made a choice myself).
yrogerg 06-26-07, 11:34 PM	BUT, when I played Planescape, I loved that the gods were that way. Mostly because you get to encounter them as NPCs when travelling the planes. As you may or may not gather from my userpic, my favourite Faction is the Sign of One, as they were of the mind that anyone could be a deity, which, in the Great Wheel, is technically true. Anyone can...question is, are they able to? Probably get killed in the process, etc. But still, it made for a good, fun romp through the planes. Personally, I've always been a fan of the Athar, as you may have gathered by my complaint that gods in most other settings are presented as little more than very powerful humans. It's ironic, but through their belief that all the known gods are frauds, they come to a truly religious belief in a(n unknown) greater divinity than the Powers.
davethebrave371 06-26-07, 11:36 PM	Personally, I've always been a fan of the Athar, as you may have gathered by my complaint that gods in most other settings are presented as little more than very powerful humans. It's ironic, but through their belief that all the known gods are frauds, they come to a truly religious belief in a greater divinity than the Powers. True that! I petitioned to write their 3e writeup for the unofficial 3e Planescape project, but I got stuck with the Bleakers and the Sons of Mercy and the Sodkillers. Although, writing about them, I got a whole new respect for the Bleakers. Still don't like the Mercykillers, either the original unified one or the post-FW divisions.
Euangelion 06-27-07, 10:47 AM	I do feel that Thrane and the Silver Flame are both two of the most easily misunderstood elements of Galifar and Khorvaire, and it is unfortunate that there is conflict between this and previous presentations. Part of the original point of this thread, and the basis of many of your posts, have been in frustration that the CotSF and Thrane have been misunderstood by many, including some who have been involved in writing for the sourcebooks. I certainly appreciate your efforts to clear things up, and I notice that many of these books in question haven't included you as one of the authors. But, you're not off the hook completely... Take a look at Dragonmarked. It is an awesome sourcebook. Its balance of fluff and crunch is right on, it illuminates the Dragonmarked Houses' role in the life of Khorvaire (and beyond), and it provides hundreds of ways players can involve the DM houses in their characters' backgrounds. BUT... The Blood of Vol is specifically mentioned as having their claws in two of the DM houses... many within Sivis and Medani revere Aureon...Cannith South includes worshipers of both Onatar and the Traveller...some within Lyrandar are dedicated to the Devourer...the Gatekeepers and the Cults of the Dragon Below vie for control of the soul of Tharashk...even the Undying Court of Aerenal includes some with the Mark of Shadow in their "secret service" agency (as mentioned in the ECS)...there are specific feats for the Eldeen druidic sects...Jorasco includes many devotees of Olladra... ...and no mention whatsoever (at least that I can find) of the Silver Flame within the book. No company of Deneith mercenaries, independent of Flamekeep, specializing in fighting undead and fiends...no cadre of Medani exorcists who are trained in protecting their clients from supernatural influences...no mention that of any of the major religions of Khorvaire the CotSF has the strongest claim to the legacy of Siberys and therefore might be of great interest to the Twelve or any individuals wishing to explore the limits of their powers... Of course, it is well-known that the theocracy of Thrane is not the most hospitable place to do business, and thus Lyrandar has moved their HQ elswhere, but once again Thrane and the CotSF are not one and the same. Before Dragonmarked came out, I chalked it up as none of the DM houses were particularly religious in nature, but that's no longer the case. By itself, this oversight (which I suspect all that it is) is not a big deal. It's easy enough for DMs to add dragonmarked groups who are devoted to the Silver Flame. But perhaps it is too easy for others to see this silence as intentional, that it is indicative of the pervailing attitude towards the Silver Flame among the people of Khorvaire (outside of Thrane) that no Dragonmarked House has any interest or connection to the Silver Flame. This would indeed be unfortunate, because it seems to me that the CotSF instead of being a complex mixture of the very holy and very corrupt has evolved into being what the Order of the Emerald Claw was supposed to have been: the group that when they show up the PCs know the bad guys are there. I'm not going to tell you what to write in future sourcebooks, but if it's not too late these particular heirs of the legacy of Siberys sure could use some love before it's too late to redeem their original concept.
Hellcow 06-27-07, 08:28 PM	...and no mention whatsoever (at least that I can find) of the Silver Flame within the book. You're right. And yet, I will argue, that's not as surprising as you might think. Nor does it support the concept of the Silver Flame as a negative force in the world, because by and large, the houses are grasping, power-hungry forces. So: the first thing to consider is that when the vast majority of the dragonmarked houses were formed, the Church of the Silver Flame didn't exist. Humans brought the worship of Onatar, Aureon, and Olladra with them when they came to Khorvaire; while it might be possible to find a few who followed the Khaleshite Serpent Cult among these newcomers, their beliefs are as different from those of the modern church as those of the Ghaash'kala orcs. Even the Blood of Vol was brought to Khorvaire following the destruction of the Line of Vol (2,600 years ago, around the same time the Mark of Sentinel appeared). The War of the Mark took place almost a thousand years before the foundation of the Church of the Silver Flame. And even those houses that weren't around at the time - such as House Tharashk - were never in a position to have much interest in the Silver Flame; instead, they are influenced by the Gatekeepers and the Cults of the Dragon Below, because those are the dominant religions of the area where the house was born. So Cannith holds Onatar as its patron because he is the Sovereign of Artifice. He was the only major god of artifice (setting aside the Traveler) around at the time the house was formed. Beyond that, the worship of Onatar takes many different forms and has few expectations. Any blacksmith can say a prayer to Onatar when he fires up the forge, and followers of the Sovereigns may even consider a blacksmith of great skill to be blessed by Onatar, in spite of his lack of religious training. The Medani order dedicated to Aureon has nothing to do with, say, the Restful Watch, though both offer prayers to Aureon. And devotion to Olladra doesn't prevent Jorasco healers from charging for their services; there's no Diet of Cardinals to condemn this practice. The Church of the Silver Flame is different in many ways. First, it DOES have that central authority. As we've said here, you can serve the Flame and still consider yourself Brelish or Aundairian. But there is still a standard of faith - a core set of practices. Beyond this, it is a religion based on protecting the innocent from the supernatural and on acts of charity. The problem with the squad of Deneith mercenaries dedicated to the Flame is the word mercenary; true servants of the Flame shouldn't expect payment for their actions, it's a matter of faith. Certainly, tithes to the church make everything possible, but it's not a cash and carry "Pay me and THEN I'll kill your werewolf" situation. Corruption in the church is one thing, but it's something that's actively being rooted out; having an actual professional business claiming ties to the Silver Flame but demanding payment would certainly run afoul of the Keeper. And that's really the core issue. The Dragonmarked Houses are businesses, and they have a bottom line; they're always looking for profit. The Church of the Silver Flame is an altruistic faith; greed is one of those evil values you're supposed to lead people away from. If you truly had a Medani order tied to the Silver Flame, they shouldn't be waiting for people to come and pay them for their help; they should be going to the people in need, and solving their problems. Essentially, the Sovereign Host is older, easier to follow, split into many different faiths (Jorasco's traditions tied to Olladra are unique to the house, and quite different than the services performed in the Pavilion of the Host in Sharn) and while it doesn't encourage profiteering, neither does it forbid it. The Sovereign Host is a younger religion that actively encourages altruistic behavior, calls on its followers to be examples of vitue, and expects its members to make sacrifices in the name of defending the innocent... none of which are especially good for business. I can absolutely see a Deneith mercenary squad trained to defeat supernatural creatures, but I'd see them as taking Dol Arrah as their patron; she's a goddess who empowers those who fight foul beasts, but on the other hand, no one says you can't take money in the process. Remember that Tira Miron was a follower of Dol Arrah before she turned to the Flame. The two are very similar, except that the Silver Flame is essentially a religion of aggressive defense (IE, get out there and defend those who can't defend themselves), while Dol Arrah is a war goddess - empowering warriors who fight evil, but also empowering clever generals and brave soldiers. As primarily a defensive force, the Flame expects its followers to help anyone in need... which again, isn't a good business practice for mercenaries. Now, with that said, I think the idea of a group of Deneith heirs who have LEFT the house in order to work together in service to the Silver Flame makes perfect sense - putting the altruistic goals of the church ahead of the opportunistic goals of the house. If I'd written the House Deneith chapter, I might have done something with that. I do think that the beliefs of the Flame would appeal to many heirs. But I think that organized devotion to the Flame specifically runs counter to the goals of the houses... and would tend to cause splinter groups as opposed to church orders within the houses. Before Dragonmarked came out, I chalked it up as none of the DM houses were particularly religious in nature, but that's no longer the case. It's not? A Cannith artificer may offer a prayer to Onatar, but they're still putting profit before any sort of spirituality. The Cults of the Dragon Below and Gatekeepers have influence in Tharashk, but the people who deal with the house - including most of the people in the house - don't know it. Ditto for the Devourer sect within Lyrandar; it's a secret faith, and one which actually supports even harsher practices than commonly accepted by the house. There is religion in the houses, largely the religions of the families that became the houses (certainly the case with Tharashk). but religion isn't the focus of any of the houses, not even Tharashk; business is. Essentially, the dragonmarked houses are corporations. Microsoft. Starbucks. Most hold the power they have because of ruthless, monopolistic practices... practices which are, essentially, anathema to the values of the Silver Flame. With that said, you're right, we could have touched on SOMETHING. I think an order of Denith followers of the Flame who have left the house makes perfect sense. And sure, you could have a group in Cannith that promotes charitable work and seeks to enforce safety regulations. The Silver Flame is a popular, successful religion, and I'm sure there are people in the houses who do follow the faith. But the reason it has fewer followers than the other religions is because it's younger, so it wasn't part of the families BEFORE they became houses; and because its altruistic values inherently run counter to the harsh commercial goals of most of the houses. Nonetheless, good point.
ArcTan 06-28-07, 12:49 AM	God, I'm glad I don't go on the main boards very often. *shudder* Gotta say though, the first time I played FR (back in 2e) the DM had made it so that gods were just like Eberron gods. It changed a whole whack of FR history into myth instead of fact (or changed it outright, depending). I liked it. Second time I played was normal, and it was like..."Ugh. This isn't faith." BUT, when I played Planescape, I loved that the gods were that way. Mostly because you get to encounter them as NPCs when travelling the planes. As you may or may not gather from my userpic, my favourite Faction is the Sign of One, as they were of the mind that anyone could be a deity, which, in the Great Wheel, is technically true. Anyone can...question is, are they able to? Probably get killed in the process, etc. But still, it made for a good, fun romp through the planes. Eberron, however, is a different flavour and I love it that way. My players will never know if I intend for there to be actual deific forces or not (not even sure I've made a choice myself). I always thought it was that way because Planescape intended to draw a cartoonish, bizarre, crazy, fundamentally unacceptable and unlivable world. In other words, I identified with the Bleakers most in that setting. The point of the setting was that if you add up all the mish-mash D&D has produced over the years and really look at it, it adds up to a senseless world no one would actually want to live in, where things like "good" and "evil" end up becoming merely words and every pointless rule has an even more pointless exception and true, honest, decent human living is impossible. In other words, I like Planescape as an incongruous and jarring and nonsensical world that doesn't mesh with any other campaign setting *because* it's an incongruous and jarring and nonsensical world that doesn't mesh with any other campaign setting. Which is why I'm annoyed when people suggest that its strength is as a background for actual campaign settings like FR or Eberron.
AkumaDaimyo 06-28-07, 12:52 AM	But hasn't it actually been said that some of the houses DO have devout followers of certain religions? It also doesnt seem right that none of the houses could have a follower of the Silver Flame. Just because your a devout Follower of the Silver Flame doesn't mean you must live in squalor or be poor.
Paulon 06-28-07, 01:05 AM	Hellcow said nothing at all indicating that a member of a Dragonmarked house can't follow the Silver Flame. What he seemed to me to be saying was that the ideals of the SF and the 'ideals' (Profit over all!) of the Dmarked houses are in sufficient conflict that it's unlikely that a subgroup in any house would be able to reach a position of major influence over the house policies. But there's nothing at all which stops individual members of the houses from following whatever faith they choose. IMO the conflict between the typical house ideals and the CotSF ideals would be a good area for character development for a Dmarked follower of the Silver Flame.
Hellcow 06-28-07, 01:49 AM	Hellcow said nothing at all indicating that a member of a Dragonmarked house can't follow the Silver Flame. What he seemed to me to be saying was that the ideals of the SF and the 'ideals' (Profit over all!) of the Dmarked houses are in sufficient conflict that it's unlikely that a subgroup in any house would be able to reach a position of major influence over the house policies. Exactly right. There's nothing wrong with a particular member of the Blademark believing in the Silver Flame and doing his best to live up to its standards, even when it runs counter to the activities of the house. The important thing is that there's times when it WILL run counter to the activities of the house. Dol Dorn doesn't demand anything from his followers except courage and skill at arms; it's an easy faith for a soldier, and an easy faith for a member of the Blademark. You want to sell your sword? That's fine with Dol Dorn. As a follower of the Silver Flame, it's fine for you to sell your sword too... provided that when you see innocents threatened by supernatural evil, you protect them, clients or no. Essentially, what you do in your off hours is your business. It's OK to fight Karrns or Thranes because that conflict ISN'T covered by the doctrine of the church. But vampire? If you believe in the Flame and you're a capable soldier, you should be fighting that vampire. I don't care if it's your CLIENT, you should be fighting it. Hence, the problem with having an entire arm of the HOUSE that follows this path... because at the end of the day, if a conflict between faith and profit arises, they will be expected to choose faith. This doesn't mean loyalty to THRANE, by any means. But it can still prove a challenge to a true mercenary. So by all means, there can be people IN the house who have been drawn to the doctrine of the Flame. As a PC, you can be a follower of the Flame and a member of a house. But as I said, if you have true orders of the Flame coposed of house members, I'd expect them either to split away from the house or to be kept at arms length from the important business. I'll point out again that most of the religious connections within the houses are present because they were the faiths of the families before the houses were even formed. House Tharashk didn't DECIDE to have connections to the Gatekeepers, and as a house it doesn't have any formal connections; it's simply the case that some of its influential members are followers of the Gatekeeper traditions and this guides their actions. Many of the Sovereign sects do have open presences within the houses, but that's because they were there from the start; the house grew around them. Purely by timing, the Silver Flame is an outsider, and has to work its way in; and it's more likely that someone who finds its principles appealing would follow the call TO the church, rather than fighting to found some sort of order within the house. With all that said, it's NOT impossible. I think you could come up with some interesting grounds for Flame sects in the houses. With that said, I'll note that the houses *I* worked on in Dragonmarked were Sivis, Ghallanda, Tharashk, Lyrandar, and Phiarlan, none of which jump out as bastions of the Silver Flame. Sivis might take a scholarly interest in the whole Siberys connection. Tharashk could take a wacky turn if the Ghaash'kala orcs suddenly developed the mark and the house tried to assimilate them. But by and large, I see the Silver Flame as being more the quiet belief of a few individuals within the houses, as opposed to the open faith of branches of the houses.
Euangelion 06-28-07, 10:47 AM	Tharashk could take a wacky turn if the Ghaash'kala orcs suddenly developed the mark and the house tried to assimilate them. Actually, since Tharashk is a relatively disorganized House, and the Binding Flame draws new blood from all the surrounding areas, it should be quite possible for the Mark of Finding to occassionally manifest among the Ghaash'kala, especially in the humans and half-orcs of the Maruk clan. Of course, that sets up the possibility of delicious confrontations between Tharashk prospectors and marked warriors of the Ghaash'kala! Then there's the issue of suspicion of the Ghaash'kala with the mark by others in the clans - are they spies from Tharashk? Of course, the LoD have their own interest in things of Siberys, and might be particularly interested in getting their paws on a Ghaash'kala with a dragonmark. Sounds like the stuff adventures are made of to me!!
Euangelion 06-28-07, 11:21 AM	This is getting to the point where it probably deserves its own thread, but then other side of the issue is the possibility of those with dragonmarks leaving their house and joining the CotSF. Then the other possibility of interaction of the CotSF with dragonmarks is the Church's attitude towards aberrant marks. It'd be interesting to know if the Church has an official position on their possible connection to Khyber. If they believe they are connected to Khyber, those with aberrant marks might themselves be the next target of an official Purge if those with aberrant marks get powerful and/or organized enough to present a threat to Khorvaire. Getting back on track, I looked over the Silver Flame chapter in Faiths of Eberron, and there's some very interesting connections and disconnections between FoW and FoE. First of all, Ari (Mouseferatu) worked on both. Second (I don't have my book with me, so I can't give exact quotes), it is stated that the Church used the pretext of moving troops around to cover operations by the templars. Thus the Church kept the operations of the templars somewhat seperate from the movement of troops, which means that at the least the templars were not always embedded in the armies of Thrane. Still, Thranish commoners should still be quite proficient in the use of the longbow. Personally, I think a great opportunity was missed at the outset of the publication of the setting. IMHO, characters whose region of origin is Thrane (or who grw up in the Church) should consider the longbow to be a simple weapon, rather than a martial weapon. This allows commoners to have proficiency in it (their only proficiency, but for most purposes in the lives of commoners - hunting, defending one's flock from predators - the longbow would be more than sufficient) as well as clerics, solving a few issues of discontinuity between the fluff (Silver Flame clerics really favor the longbow) and the crunch (they're not proficient with it without burning a feat or multi-classing or being elves.) It would have also highlighted the place of the longbow in Thranish and CotSF society for all future sourcebook writers to see. Oh well. (Keep in mind that the presence of Silver Flame followers in the armies of Breland and Aundair would have bolstered their archery capabilities as well, just not as much as with Thrane.) Third, it quite clearly states that it is not the practice of the Church (not just Thrane, but the whole Church) to force conversions by the sword. Thus the Convulsions are entirely out of character for the Church, Thranish or foreigner, moderate or Puritan. That leads me to assume that the Convulsions had a supernatural, fiendish even, cause. Fourth, it is stated in FoE that Aundair is indeed the center of the Puritan sect. As this is now sourcebook canon, this should have been taken into account when describing Aundair in the war. So the bottom line for me is that the Convulsions did occur, but as they were so out of character for any follower of the Silver Flame, domestic or immigrant, then they must have had a supernatural cause. Other Voice of the Flame, I'm looking at you!
Hellcow 06-28-07, 11:43 AM	This is getting to the point where it probably deserves its own thread, but then other side of the issue is the possibility of those with dragonmarks leaving their house and joining the CotSF. Certainly. There's lots of interesting issues there. First of all, Ari (Mouseferatu) worked on both. Though in fairness, Ari wrote the Silver Flame chapter of Faiths of Eberron, and did not write the history section of Forge of War. Same sort of issue as me saying "Sure, if I'd written Deneith in Dragonmarked, it would have been interesting to do something with a splinter Silver Flame group." Second (I don't have my book with me, so I can't give exact quotes), it is stated that the Church used the pretext of moving troops around to cover operations by the templars. Thus the Church kept the operations of the templars somewhat seperate from the movement of troops, which means that at the least the templars were not always embedded in the armies of Thrane. Which does make sense to me. The templars are the soldiers of the church, not the army of the nation. Even with the theocracy, I still see the logic to recognizing these as separate forces. The templars would be more likely to be deployed against specifically supernatural threats (Aundairian wizards, Karrnathi undead) or used for defense. I could see small groups of templars working with regular forces in order to provide inspiration to the troops - but in many ways it would be inappropriate to use them for purely mundane, nationalistic goals. Still, Thranish commoners should still be quite proficient in the use of the longbow. Agreed.