Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bjorntfh 03-08-05, 11:55 AM	Anyone notice that in the Forgotten Forge PCs with more greed than sense of duty can make a LOT of money by simply stripping the adamantine layer off of the door? They can take down the double doors to the forge (from the inside, take off the hinges) and get the party to drag them to the shrine (where there will be no encounters) and spend the time to strip the adamantine layer off of the door. If you think about it, it's a half inch thick (it's got 20 HP, meaning it's a half inch plate layered over a much thicker iron door) and even being conservative the door is at least 6' by 6' (double door, minimum functional door height for humans would be 5'6", make it 6' for calculations, 3' wide door) This means you've got a cubic foot and a half of Adamantine in 1/2 inch thick plates. Anyone else see that as WAY too much loot to be giving a 1st level party?
nyysjan 03-08-05, 12:16 PM	it's adamantine first level party should not be able to scratch it or dent it let alone strip the adamantine of it i mean 'hardness 20' just how are they going to top that in a single hit and there should be no criticals against a door but hey if they are so greedy and dedicated and actually succeed in taking the adamantine then way to go them and i would let them keep the money why don't you encourega them to upgrade their wardrobes and buy a luxurius appartment from Sharn :D
bjorntfh 03-08-05, 12:19 PM	Personally, that's what my PC did (after 36 hours of work stripping the door. It's easier to break the iron on the other side...) I'm a warforged by the way. The hardest part has been not simply making adamantine EVERYHTING for the party. Heck, we considered adamantine eating utensils to keep the money on us!
Gunrock 03-08-05, 12:27 PM	Anyone else see that as WAY too much loot to be giving a 1st level party? That just means that they don't get much loot from any other adventures. That Adamantine money will have to last a *long* time to get them back to the "Wealth by level" guidlines.
nyysjan 03-08-05, 12:43 PM	let them keep the money and let them gain loot in normal manner it will all add up in few levels anyway plus if they can find a way to make huge sums of money then why not but you really should suggest them to use some of that money to non adventure gear and style of living eberron is more than just a place for dungeons and huge armies of undead with proper style of living and good enough clothing they could enter the high society and start milking all those soft nobles for money with all kinds of busines schemes or something like that and it would make it more likely that the well off people would approach them with job offers
MarkB 03-08-05, 12:44 PM	Even if the adventurers do manage to strip the adamantine panels from the doors, they're still two massive slabs of unbreakable adamantine, at the bottom of a deep, precarious shaft below a sewer full of opportunistic lurkers. Recovering them should be an adventure in itself.
lukelightning 03-08-05, 12:50 PM	This has been discussed before; two general sentiments/solutions are: A) "Let the players have their fun." Reward their ingenuity if they can manage to get the metal. That's how I would run it... sure, you can sit and work on the metal, but random monsters like more of those nasty horrid rats are gonna show up, and maybe worse. And if you are working from the inside, you're safe...until you've removed the doors. B) "No way, José!" That's too much money for level 1 characters. To prevent them from doing this, people have suggestions ranging from terrible ("it's magic adamantine that turns to regular iron when removed") to perfectly sensible ("The doors are the property of House Cannith; now that the Forgotten Forge has become the Remembered Forge, they decide to take the doors themselves")
bjorntfh 03-08-05, 12:55 PM	My group took ages to get them up, but it was worth it in the "take anything that's not nailed down. If you can tear the nails out, it's not nailed down" system of adventurer looting. Mostly we ended up storing it in a vault as an "emergency raising cash supply." You never know when you'll need it!
Cloud Divider 03-08-05, 01:52 PM	So, just for amusement purposes, let's take a look at how much those doors weigh, shall we? Let's assume these are industrial-sized double-doors, so maybe 6' wide by 8' tall, and 1/2" thick. So a total of 3456 cubic inches. If adamantine has a density roughly equivalent to iron, that's 980lb, or about 500lb per door. If adamantine has a density roughly equivalent to tungsten, that's 2408lb. Or about a half-ton per door. Maybe split the difference - raw adamantium may have a density that high, but adamantine is an alloy, so maybe it's somewhere in the middle. Call it 1500lb...or 750lb/door. I'm not sure what the thickness of the iron portion is - call it maybe 2"? The iron backing then weighs just under 4000lb. So unless you've got the specialized tools to break the adamantine into smaller pieces, you've got two really big unwieldy monoliths that weigh a half ton apiece...IF you can somehow peel the iron backing off, which will be no small feat. And if you can't pull that off, you've got basically two 1-ton-plus doors to try and drag back to the surface...
lukelightning 03-08-05, 02:12 PM	Adamantine has the same weight as steel, according to weapon and armor weights. Anyways, 1500lbs is nothing. Get a couple riding dogs. From the SRD: A light load for a riding dog is up to 100 pounds; a medium load, 101–200 pounds; and a heavy load, 201–300 pounds. A riding dog can drag 1,500 pounds. If adamantine has a density roughly equivalent to tungsten, that's 2408lb. Or about a half-ton per door. Maybe split the difference - raw adamantium may have a density that high, but adamantine is an alloy, so maybe it's somewhere in the middle. Call it 1500lb...or 750lb/door.
Kid SixXx 03-08-05, 02:13 PM	*nods to Cloud Divider* Arguably there should be no physical way 4 to 6 1st lvl characters would have the tools or the wherewithal to get the adamantine. Stranger thing have happened, though. If allowing the PC's to get the metal doesn't crush fun or reason, let it ride.
bjorntfh 03-08-05, 02:32 PM	The iron is removable from the back of the doors, although I do agree it too a LONG time to hoist those things along. That is the upside of having 3 tanks with the party of 6 (we've got a barb, a fighter and a high strength cleric.) Yes, it's one of those things that you might wonder how to get the tools... but remember: you're right next to a forge. The iron will come off much more easily than the adamantine. Mind you we still have no real USE for it yet (seeing as we don't have the supplies or the skills to work it), but it's a good trust fund.
MikeyP 03-08-05, 02:42 PM	Just curious where one gets their pricing guidlines for raw adamantine? As I've said before, you can more or less draw an analogy to just about any major industrial metal; it's simply not worth anywhere near as much as metal alone as it is when worked into an object. It's not a precious metal like gold or platinum is. An adamantine suit of full plate adds 15000gp to the cost of the armor and includes the cost for it being masterwork. A suit of full plate weighs 50lbs. An adamantine suit of full plate costs 16500. A steel suit of full plate costs 1500gp. Does a pound of steel cost 1500/50= 30gp? Not even close. Should a pound of adamantine then cost 330gp? No way. A pound of iron costs 1sp. Figure a pound of steel at a little more, say 5sp (or .5gp)? Using that logic, if it's correct, a suit of full plate uses 25gp worth of steel (not counting scrap). Applying that same logic ratio, an adamantine suit of armor would use materials equal to about 11x the cost of steel, so 275gp worth of adamantine. Not counting scrap, that puts adamantine at a value of 5.5gp/lb. So, a half a ton of adamantine (2 500lb doors as stated in an above analysis) would be worth roughly 5,500gp. However, PCs can expect to receive 1/2 gp value when selling goods, so the party may expect to earn 2,250gp. EDIT: Trade goods are the exception, so they can probably get full value (5,500gp). Still a large sum of money to 1st level characters! However, it just equates into the fact that it's not worth salvaging unless they are properly equipped to salvage and have someone lined up to take all that scrap metal off their hands. Of course, my analysis could be slightly off due to consumed and wasted amounts of metal during the process of forging it into something useful.
lukelightning 03-08-05, 02:42 PM	Make a living construct out of it. Doorforged. Mind you we still have no real USE for it yet (seeing as we don't have the supplies or the skills to work it), but it's a good trust fund.
bjorntfh 03-08-05, 02:48 PM	Make a living construct out of it. Doorforged. *laughs* Thank you, you just made my day. I'm not sure what we'll end up doing with it, but so far we've just cashed in enough to get plenty of healing potions and upgrade to MW weapons while saving the rest for an emergency.
nyysjan 03-08-05, 02:49 PM	one way to get a price for a pound of Adamantine would be to take a adamantine lognsword remove themasterwork component prizeand lets say a four times the weaponprize (hard to work with) and count the price of adamantine from the weight of the sword
bjorntfh 03-08-05, 02:56 PM	Mikey, if you think about it, you can get at least half value of the worked goods by using it to sponsor a blacksmith. If offered half the profit of Adamantine Full Plate in exchange for working it, most smiths would jump at the offer, since they're making effectively free money. He'd be normally making Full Plate and making 100% of the profits (1500GP). Instead he's making Adamantine Full Plate and making 50% of the profits (8750GP). Overall it's a very good business idea to do that since you can then sell the armor or weapons to the local government (Sharn in our case) for the full price. The half value applies to used items, not to new objects when you're playing merchant. You get half value for that sword that you took off of the dead thug. If you make a sword you can reasonably expect to get full value for it, provided you can find someone who needs it (and what government wouldn't want adamantine weapons!) Of course you'll get known as professional arms dealers... but that's not always a bad thing!
bjorntfh 03-08-05, 02:58 PM	That, while seemingly a good idea, never works because they priced Adamantine based on usefulness rather than weight. Look at Mithral: price for a chain shirt 1100 GP. Price per pound: 500 GP. The Chain shirt weighs in at 10lbs. Therefore either it's only got 20% mithral, or the prices don't work.
lukelightning 03-08-05, 03:10 PM	Here's a question for you all: Do you think the adamantine doors are obviously adamantine? They could be big steel doors for all the party knows. If I were DMing I'd make players do an appraise or metalworking check to identify it. Sure, they'd know it's pretty hard if they try to chop through the door, but I figure there are a fair amount of players (such as myself) who'd say "ah, big metal doors, can't open 'em, I think I'll search for secret doors and maybe climb on the roof" without hacking at the doors.
Kid SixXx 03-08-05, 03:21 PM	Here's a question for you all: Do you think the adamantine doors are obviously adamantine? They could be big steel doors for all the party knows. If I were DMing I'd make players do an appraise or metalworking check to identify it. . *nods* I'd force a Appraise or Metalworking check, especially since my players are also smart enough to ask questions like that.. A Dwarf or a Gnome would obviously be able to tell fairly easily.
Gunrock 03-08-05, 04:41 PM	Adamantine has the same weight as steel, according to weapon and armor weights. Anyways, 1500lbs is nothing. Get a couple riding dogs. From the SRD: Adamantine doubles the weight of any weapon or armor made of it. So, it is about twice as dense as steel. That makes those two door slabs about a ton each (or is it a half ton?).
lukelightning 03-08-05, 04:47 PM	Twice as much, eh? Then I guess it's a team of 4 riding dogs! Adamantine doubles the weight of any weapon or armor made of it. So, it is about twice as dense as steel. That makes those two door slabs about a ton each (or is it a half ton?).
Onatar 03-08-05, 05:07 PM	Me personally if I was Dming i wouldn't allow it. Also who said anything about first lvl. You will always know were it is and I'm sure when your higher lvl it wouldn't be two hard to get. Well your lvl 6 lets say and your in sharn for about two weeks with nothing to due. One of the party mems goes hey rember the forge with the adamantian doors lets go rip em apart. Also my DM looking up what Tensers Floating disk can do and how high but if so I could float some up or even at lvl one our team could have pulled up one ton. Thats less then 200lbs per player. As you said though post restrictions on what they can do with it.
starfurry 03-09-05, 12:23 AM	First of all, I agree with the previous poster about how adamantine is not a precious metal, and the metal itself is a small fraction of the value of adamantine armor/weapons. A corollary is that adamantine (and mithral) had better not be worth too much per pound of scrap, or adamantine (and mithral) warforged would be attacked on sight by every thug who saw a small kingdom's worth of metal on two legs. Regarding riding dogs dragging ability, I assume that the 1500 pound capacity referred to pulling a cart with wheels on a reasonably flat surface, not dragging something up stairs in a narrow passageway. Speaking of which, isn't the passageway which the characters use to get to the Forge narrower than the doors?
Beleriphon 03-09-05, 12:53 AM	Regarding riding dogs dragging ability, I assume that the 1500 pound capacity referred to pulling a cart with wheels on a reasonably flat surface, not dragging something up stairs in a narrow passageway. Speaking of which, isn't the passageway which the characters use to get to the Forge narrower than the doors? For sooth the passage from the abyss 'tis indeed more narrow than the great doors themselves.
lukelightning 03-09-05, 10:27 AM	Regarding riding dogs dragging ability, I assume that the 1500 pound capacity referred to pulling a cart with wheels on a reasonably flat surface, not dragging something up stairs in a narrow passageway. Speaking of which, isn't the passageway which the characters use to get to the Forge narrower than the doors? True, but aren't the passageways 5 foot wide? The doors are about that, and you would be dragging them individually. Plus they are flat; you just drag them in an angle. And if wheels are what you need, that can be arranged. Or roll them on logs, or grease up the ground. Again, this is something I would allow players to do (I believe strongly in rewarding player ingenuity). Of course, it will take a lot of time, and someone is likely to be curious as to why this rag-tag bunch of adventurers has headed down into the sewers with a bunch of riding dogs or other animals, cable, pulleys, winches, and all that other junk. What would end up happening is either House Cannith says "Hold on there, cowboy! Them there doors belongs to us!" Or some local crime boss says "hey, stealing adamantine doors? What a great idea, thanks!" and muscles them away from the party.
SirLoin 03-09-05, 05:34 PM	Make a living construct out of it. Doorforged. Classic! LOL I just changed the material make-up of the doors to iron. It simply did not make sense that they would be that strong with such a fragile roof & such & in such a place. Not to mention I did not want them to play that whole feascle or tearing them out.
travellersside 03-16-05, 06:31 PM	Well, the problem of how to get them out of there wasn't too hard to solve... I made the same calculations as bjorntfh and worked out that there was a total of one and a half cubic feet of adamantine, in two blocks, each of which is attached to a big chunk of steel. The adamantine is half an inch thick, while the steel is three inches thick. So, each door is about 5.25 cubic feet of metal each. So, my group got three scrolls of shrink item (375 gp each - they got a spare in case one of them failed) which, let's be honest, can be found without too much difficulty in Sharn. They have a caster level of 5, so it'll shrink an object of up to 10 cubic feet and keep it so for up to 5 days. I let them find a buyer within 5 days of course... Althugh it did take a bit of work to get hold of someone willing to take it :) Also, they were fairly pleased to receive 8,000 gp in total. ("Well, it's the work you see... Tough stuff to work - need special tools... And you don't make any money until you've finished... Could take months for some things... It just isn't profitable... <shakes head> And who can affor it when you're done? Not much demand for it... Tell you what, I'll give you four thousand for each door, and that's being generous on my part - I won't see a profit for a good while yet you know...") And what did my party do with their vast wealth? They bought four rings of protection +1! I can live with the unbalancing effects of an entire extra point of AC each :D
Vharuck 03-16-05, 09:01 PM	If the doors are 5' wide and 8' tall, they probably can't make the corner in the sewers.