Post/Author/DateTime	Post
naturax 11-10-07, 02:52 PM	I'm planning to introduce three new players to D&D and I intend to use Forgotten Forge to do so, even though I've never run it or played in it. I'm very familiar with the Eberron setting and Sharn, so I'm comfortable winging it if the players decide to ignore the plot. My question is, for anyone that's run Forgotten Forge: do you think it has any elements that will give players new to D&D a hard time? I'm also planning to pregenerate characters in order to save my poor players from the pain of character creation in D&D and let them pick, so I'd like to know if there is any particular first level class that has the potential to wreck any element of the Forgotten Forge adventure (so that I can just not build it). For example, the warforged fighter I'm going to build is not going to have Adamantine Plating. Thanks!
Identitystolen 11-10-07, 03:24 PM	Only problem with Forgotten Forge I've encountered is that a lot of my players knew it already.... :pbbbtt: Such are the dangers of running a module. Honestly, they'll have the usual newbie problems of figuring out what to roll when and not really picking up on important plot elements (eeew, dead body, keep away!) Really, I don't think its overly lethal, but if your run into a problem hit the problem quietly with a nerf bat so they can continue on if they're enjoying themselves. Oh, and I'd let them make characters if they want to. It takes awhile to get into granted, but character generating was half the fun for me as a player.
naturax 11-10-07, 05:06 PM	Only problem with Forgotten Forge I've encountered is that a lot of my players knew it already.... :pbbbtt: Such are the dangers of running a module. Honestly, they'll have the usual newbie problems of figuring out what to roll when and not really picking up on important plot elements (eeew, dead body, keep away!) Really, I don't think its overly lethal, but if your run into a problem hit the problem quietly with a nerf bat so they can continue on if they're enjoying themselves. Oh, and I'd let them make characters if they want to. It takes awhile to get into granted, but character generating was half the fun for me as a player. I don't have to worry about them knowing it because they are completely new to D&D, but I'll definitely use your suggestion of nerfing any fight that gets out of hand. Thanks!
Revvecor 11-10-07, 05:13 PM	This Site (http://www.pathguy.com/eberron.htm) is very useful for new players character creation, or those whom want to check some of their math. I don't think this site violates the CoC, but if it does a Wizo can just delete it.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-11-07, 04:07 AM	The swarms are a problem. Make sure the PCs take some Alchemist's Fire with them and have a NPC hint what that stuff is good for. "You might encounter rats or something down there... nothing better than a little fire to scare them off."
Arcane Guyver 11-11-07, 07:08 AM	My question is, for anyone that's run Forgotten Forge: do you think it has any elements that will give players new to D&D a hard time? In the sewers there's a battle that is initiated by a warforged who just magically appears in a corner via DM fiat. I'd suggest having the warforged attack from the next room instead, letting you better utilize the water vents. As mentioned earlier, the swarms are kinda nasty. There's mention of the party needing fire during their 'mission briefing' with Elaydren, but it's in passing. If you're building the characters, give the sorcerer burning hands or the fighter alchemist's fire. The final battle can be pretty tough IIRC. This suggestion isn't specific to this battle, but since this is the players' first foray into D&D, be very liberal with hints and suggestions. Think of this as a tutorial in a video game, not-so-subtly suggesting 'Aid Another' here and 'Combat Expertise' there. I'm also planning to pregenerate characters in order to save my poor players from the pain of character creation in D&D and let them pick, so I'd like to know if there is any particular first level class that has the potential to wreck any element of the Forgotten Forge adventure (so that I can just not build it). For example, the warforged fighter I'm going to build is not going to have Adamantine Plating. Why isn't the fighter getting Adamantine Body? That's a good feat (probably too good). I actually support this idea of starting characters being pregens - let the players see what a well-built character looks and plays like, get a feel for the D&D game, and then later on they can try their hands at crafting their own characters. Some other suggestions * Reformat the stat blocks in the adventure so they're actually usable!!!! * Don't make the pregens too complicated. Sorcerer, Cleric, Fighter & Rogue should work alright. * Give the players poker chips to represent Action Points, otherwise there's a good chance they'll totally forget about them. * If you're feeling industrious, make little flash cards (with short explanations) for consumable items. They feel more like an immediate resource in that form; better than just scrawled on the back of their sheet and forgotten.
naturax 11-11-07, 10:13 AM	In the sewers there's a battle that is initiated by a warforged who just magically appears in a corner via DM fiat. I'd suggest having the warforged attack from the next room instead, letting you better utilize the water vents. As mentioned earlier, the swarms are kinda nasty. There's mention of the party needing fire during their 'mission briefing' with Elaydren, but it's in passing. If you're building the characters, give the sorcerer burning hands or the fighter alchemist's fire. The final battle can be pretty tough IIRC. This suggestion isn't specific to this battle, but since this is the players' first foray into D&D, be very liberal with hints and suggestions. Think of this as a tutorial in a video game, not-so-subtly suggesting 'Aid Another' here and 'Combat Expertise' there. Why isn't the fighter getting Adamantine Body? That's a good feat (probably too good). I actually support this idea of starting characters being pregens - let the players see what a well-built character looks and plays like, get a feel for the D&D game, and then later on they can try their hands at crafting their own characters. Some other suggestions * Reformat the stat blocks in the adventure so they're actually usable!!!! * Don't make the pregens too complicated. Sorcerer, Cleric, Fighter & Rogue should work alright. * Give the players poker chips to represent Action Points, otherwise there's a good chance they'll totally forget about them. * If you're feeling industrious, make little flash cards (with short explanations) for consumable items. They feel more like an immediate resource in that form; better than just scrawled on the back of their sheet and forgotten. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for! Thanks! Here's what I have in mind for my pregenerated characters (letting the 3-4 players pick from the pool). I'm trying to make them relatively simple to play and also include a built-in reason to be in Sharn. I'd love some suggestions for what feats to pick for them. Gnome Bard (chronicler): Extra Music Warforged Fighter (labourer): Adamantine Body (free via my house rules), Power Attack, Cleave Goblin Monk (undercover servant): Weapon Finesse Human Paladin (teacher): Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Half-Orc Ranger (urbran tracker): ? Changeling Rogue (courier): Improved Unarmed Strike Halfling Wizard (scholar): Mark of Healing Dwarven Cleric (smith): ? Warforged Sorcerer (tinkerer): Unarmoured Body (free via my house rules), Combat Casting
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-11-07, 10:41 AM	The final battle can be pretty tough IIRC. It is, especially for a beginner's group. We started the fight with full resources, as we managed to kill the doglike Homunculi without them having a possibility to fight back. When the "boss" WF appeared, we kited him through half the room (MMORPG-experience...), but he eventually caught the fighter and slew him. We didn't manage to score a single hit, IIRC, and eventually ran away. For a beginner group, this encounter might be too tough, especially if there is no WF fighter with a built-in 16,5kGP Adamantine Full Plate in the group. Make sure to give them the equipment necessary to kill this guy - perhaps some Scrolls of Magic Missile are hidden in the forge?
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-11-07, 10:55 AM	Warforged Fighter (labourer): Adamantine Body (free via my house rules), Power Attack, Cleave Maybe replace Cleave with Weapon Focus (Greatsword). If so, be sure to name the WF "Greataxe". Goblin Monk (undercover servant): Weapon Finesse Focussing on Strength and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) might be better. Human Paladin (teacher): Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot A Paladin with ranged weapons? Weird. Exotic Weapon Profiency (Bastard Sword) and... ehm... Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword). Half-Orc Ranger (urbran tracker): ? Weapon Finesse if he's focussed on Dex. Else, I'd suggest Weapon Focus (Longbow). Changeling Rogue (courier): Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed Rogue... Hmpf. For beginners, I'd stick with the classics, i. e. Weapon Finesse. Halfling Wizard (scholar): Mark of Healing Will hurt at higher levels, I suppose, but okay for introduction. Dwarven Cleric (smith): ? Scribe Scroll. As this won't be of any use in the first adventure, give him a free Scroll of Cure Light Wounds. Or even more. Warforged Sorcerer (tinkerer): Unarmoured Body (free via my house rules), Combat Casting Skill Focus (Concentration) > Combat Casting. And Skill Focus sucks. If the character is for one adventure only, give him Toughness.
Arcane Guyver 11-11-07, 02:32 PM	Firstly, I'd recommend sorting the classes into four piles, as sort of an introduction to the concept of character roles (never too early to start introducing 4e ideas!). Controllers Halfling Wizard (scholar): Mark of Healing Nice choice, here. As a house rule, I typically allow a character to take a feat instead of getting 'Summon Familiar,' and the best 1st-level feat I can think of for a wizard is Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage). Sounds complicated, but makes playing the wizard a bit more fun early on. Warforged Sorcerer (tinkerer): Unarmoured Body (free via my house rules), Combat Casting A free feat!! However, this one is so bad I don't think it'll throw balance off. Combat Casting is fine early on, as long as you retrain it away later. If you go with the house rule I mentioned earlier, Spell Focus could be useful. Grease and Mage Armor sound like good spells for this guy! Emphasize the sorcerer's reliance on scrolls for spells he/she'd like, but won't cast often. Defenders Warforged Fighter (labourer): Adamantine Body (free via my house rules), Power Attack, Cleave Eh...Power Attack isn't very useful at 1st level unless you're a Barbarian. Cleave probebly won't be too useful in this particular adventure, either. (And Adamantine Body for free? So generous! :eek: ). I would recommend Weapon Focus and Shield Specialization (Player's Handbook 2), so he can eventually pick up Weapon Spec & Shield Ward (also Player's Handbook 2, increasing his Touch AC). Goblin Monk (undercover servant): Weapon Finesse I'd recommend just skipping the monk as an introductory class. It's already a gimped class, and it doesn't synergize well with a Small race. Human Paladin (teacher): Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Quite simply, unless you're using the Elf Paladin substitution level (Races of the Wild, 1st-level only), you don't want to make a ranged paladin. Personally, these guys are more about tanking than anything, so I'd rather give the paladin Shield Specialization and Goad (Complete Adventurer). Ki Shout (Complete Warrior) can be a fun one for paladins, too. If they make it to 5th level, I'd highly recommend using the Divine Spirit substitution ability (Dungeonscape). Leaders Gnome Bard (chronicler): Extra Music I'd recommend staying away from the bard as an introductory class ("My first foray into D&D...and I'm playing a cheerleader..."). A better choice might be some sort of Druid, using Shapeshifting (Player's Handbook 2) as well as Spontaneous Healer (Complete Divine). Dwarven Cleric (smith): ? Augment Healing (Complete Divine) will help him/her restore the party better. Scribe Scroll is a better feat, but I'm not sure you want to get into item creation right off the bat. Strikers Half-Orc Ranger (urbran tracker): ? 'Urban Ranger,' huh? In this case, I recommend using EVERY substitution ability possible in the Cityscape Web Enhancement #1, as well as the 'Champion of the Wild' substitution ability (Complete Champion). Lots of variant rules, but it effectively eliminates any and all possible class connections with nature. I'd go with Weapon Focus for a one-handed weapon, working towards Improved Buckler Defense (Complete Warrior, excellent with an enhanced buckler) and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer, so he can dual wield his favored weapon). Be sure to emphasize the ability to retrain Favored Enemy! Very important. Changeling Rogue (courier): Improved Unarmed Strike Interesting. I think the rogue would be better served by Improved Feint or Two-Weapon Fighting.
Belabras 11-12-07, 12:33 AM	For the Half-Orc Urban Ranger, why not give him the Mark of Finding? Seems to fit the class/race combo pretty well.
Ryuu_Tenshi 11-12-07, 06:19 AM	He may have been going archer-pally as the favoured weapon of the Flame is a bow...
naturax 11-12-07, 10:46 AM	He may have been going archer-pally as the favoured weapon of the Flame is a bow... That's precisely it. I'm not going for super-optimized characters, just something fun and simple to play that'll serve to introduce people to D&D until they get a hang for the game and come up with their own concepts. I've gone for theme and playability over effectiveness in most cases. Though I do appreciate all of the suggestions on the character builds, which is why I posted them.
Arcane Guyver 11-12-07, 06:54 PM	He may have been going archer-pally as the favoured weapon of the Flame is a bow... I guess I understand that, but...why not just make a Ranger then, using his longbow to hunt down Humanoid (shapechanger), Undead, and Outsider (evil)? Reflavor the magic they receive a bit so it's given by the Flame, and you've got the flavor plus a viable character. Personally, in the realm of D&D, I'd rather take a character who is fun to play over one who is fun to read about.
Rechan 11-12-07, 08:12 PM	I guess I understand that, but... I don't see what the problem is with it. Just pick up Ranged Smite and you're done.
Arcane Guyver 11-13-07, 12:44 AM	...well, done with barely enough feats to maintain that fighting style, no archery-based spells, and hopefully a very generous point buy (or blow one of the eight feats on Zen Archery). Then later you could drop out of Paladin school for an archery-based PrC...
_Radagast_ 11-13-07, 04:50 AM	I don't see what the problem is with it. Just pick up Ranged Smite and you're done. Another point about having optimize characters as a new player is so that no one feels like their character isn't effective or useless. That might turn off a new player to feel defeated when their character doesn't do anything well.
naturax 11-13-07, 09:31 AM	Another point about having optimize characters as a new player is so that no one feels like their character isn't effective or useless. That might turn off a new player to feel defeated when their character doesn't do anything well. These characters only need to exist long enough to play through the Forgotten Forge adventure - after that players will create their own, probably new characters, to whatever specs they want. So is the difference of a couple of feats really going to make or break the adventure to them?
Arcane Guyver 11-13-07, 12:55 PM	Another point about having optimize characters as a new player is so that no one feels like their character isn't effective or useless. That might turn off a new player to feel defeated when their character doesn't do anything well. Bolded for emphasis. "It'll be better next game, after you spend 3+ hours crafting your own character," sounds like a big non-sale to me.
Ryuu_Tenshi 11-17-07, 08:11 PM	I guess I understand that, but...why not just make a Ranger then, using his longbow to hunt down Humanoid (shapechanger), Undead, and Outsider (evil)? Reflavor the magic they receive a bit so it's given by the Flame, and you've got the flavor plus a viable character. Personally, in the realm of D&D, I'd rather take a character who is fun to play over one who is fun to read about. And I'd rather have a combination of both. An archer-pally isn't exactly unplayable. And it's fun. So what?
naturax 11-18-07, 12:06 AM	My game got postponed so I've had more time to think about this. I think what I was going for was iconic Eberron characters, so I wanted them to have feats that reflected their lifestyles more than the most optimized choice. Thus, the Paladin of the Silver Flame is going to use a bow, the cool warforged that is on the cover of the ECS has adamantine plating, etc. So I'd welcome more suggestions for iconic Eberron character concepts that'll work at first level and be suitable for new players, if anyone has any other ideas. Thanks!
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 11-19-07, 03:09 AM	- a dubious "archeologist" from the Morgraive University (Rogue with Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus) - a battle-proven veteran of the last war (Barbarian or Fighter with Toughness and Weapon Focus) - a proud, but inexperienced Valenar Elf (Ranger with Mounted Combat) - an aundairan war-wizard, haunted by the warcrimes in his past (Wizard or War Wizard with Toughness) - a karrn officer with basically the same problem (Cleric with MWP or Fighter with Weapon Focus and Mounted Combat)
naturax 11-20-07, 04:45 AM	- a dubious "archeologist" from the Morgraive University (Rogue with Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus) - a battle-proven veteran of the last war (Barbarian or Fighter with Toughness and Weapon Focus) - a proud, but inexperienced Valenar Elf (Ranger with Mounted Combat) - an aundairan war-wizard, haunted by the warcrimes in his past (Wizard or War Wizard with Toughness) - a karrn officer with basically the same problem (Cleric with MWP or Fighter with Weapon Focus and Mounted Combat) Awesome ideas, thanks!
Forged_For_Hire 11-20-07, 10:52 AM	I'd say halfling barbarian (with dino mount), changling rogue, shifter fighter and kalashtar psion are pretty standard icons with Eberron. For a new character, the barbarian and the fighter will be easy to understand (go and kill things), but the rogue is going to be a character you might have to explain a bit. The psion would be the toughest to understand because of psionics and their nature of making the DM cry. I have played through Forgotten Forge with the same DM and two similar characters (warforged artificers), but each having a different mindset. Each time is a different experience, especially because metagaming was strictly prohibited. I was also out of practice playing a higher difficulty character and learning about the artificer after that first one gave me some great ideas (Bane on the armbow).
Questing GM 11-26-07, 03:44 AM	For extra flavor of characters, you could also use the archetypes based on the ones given in the Player's Guide to Eberron.
naturax 11-26-07, 07:31 AM	For extra flavor of characters, you could also use the archetypes based on the ones given in the Player's Guide to Eberron. Oh yeah! I had forgotten about those.
Belkar 11-27-07, 11:47 AM	If this is their first, ever attempt at D&D - then I'd advise staying away from psionics and animals. As iconic as the kalashar psion and dino-riding halfling barbarian are... I think it's too much for people still trying to remember which dice get rolled with what. ;) Typical Sharn archetypes, good for n00bs: (and good for this particular mod) Human Ranger: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Fav. Enemy (Warforged). Maybe he hunted WF in the war... will bring good RP dynamic if you include the next archetype... Give him an arrow or two of Bane (Warforged). Warforged Fighter: Adamantine Plating (house ruled for free), Weapon Focus (Greataxe), Weapon Specialization (Greataxe). Call him Haft. Give him a potion of Repair Light Damage. Changeling Rogue: Weapon Finesse. Make him a consumate thief. Give him a single potion of Invisibility. Human Cleric: Combat Casting. Devoted to the Sovereign Host... Domains of Healing and Protection. Give him two scrolls of Cure Light Wounds. Shifter Sorceror: Make sure they know Burning Hands. Wizards may be better than sorcerors in the long run - but for a one-time mod at 1st level, run by somone who doesn't know a material component from a spellbook - the sorceror is the class to easily learn magic from. You only know a couple spells - but you can cast more than 2 a day. A shifter can gain a physical boost to help with the squishy HP, if needed. Give them a scroll of Mage Armor.
naturax 11-28-07, 08:32 AM	If this is their first, ever attempt at D&D - then I'd advise staying away from psionics and animals. As iconic as the kalashar psion and dino-riding halfling barbarian are... I think it's too much for people still trying to remember which dice get rolled with what. ;) Typical Sharn archetypes, good for n00bs: (and good for this particular mod) Human Ranger: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Fav. Enemy (Warforged). Maybe he hunted WF in the war... will bring good RP dynamic if you include the next archetype... Give him an arrow or two of Bane (Warforged). Warforged Fighter: Adamantine Plating (house ruled for free), Weapon Focus (Greataxe), Weapon Specialization (Greataxe). Call him Haft. Give him a potion of Repair Light Damage. Changeling Rogue: Weapon Finesse. Make him a consumate thief. Give him a single potion of Invisibility. Human Cleric: Combat Casting. Devoted to the Sovereign Host... Domains of Healing and Protection. Give him two scrolls of Cure Light Wounds. Shifter Sorceror: Make sure they know Burning Hands. Wizards may be better than sorcerors in the long run - but for a one-time mod at 1st level, run by somone who doesn't know a material component from a spellbook - the sorceror is the class to easily learn magic from. You only know a couple spells - but you can cast more than 2 a day. A shifter can gain a physical boost to help with the squishy HP, if needed. Give them a scroll of Mage Armor. Awesome, this is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!