Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hcotterson 11-25-06, 12:27 AM	I don't mean to flame, but dang, I recently purchased both the FRCS and the ECS, and while the FR are obviously well thought-out and interesting in their own right, I was absolutely blown away by the ECS from the first page! It makes the FR seem outdated, and, frankly, boring. The FR are just too traditional. Go go gadget Eberron! This is what D&D needs.
Salla 11-25-06, 12:42 AM	Posts like this make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Jancarius 11-25-06, 02:47 AM	FR and Dragonlance both suffer from the same syndrome. They are old campaign worlds, with dozens of novels in each one that establish what's going on and has gone in the world. There's not a whole lot left in the campaign setting books to send your party out to do.
goblin_pride 11-25-06, 03:46 AM	Posts like this make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Dude, that's just gas. Go stand over by the window, would you?
hunter_in_darkness 11-25-06, 10:49 AM	i like both really each has its on feel can be a blast to play in or run . its all in what your in a mood for there both great settings ....but diffent stokes and all that glad your enjoying eberron
Rauric 11-25-06, 12:21 PM	I like both as well. People should stop comparing the two so much. If run properly FR can be as awe inspiring and "low level friendly" as Eberron.
Ryuu_Tenshi 11-25-06, 01:02 PM	FR and Dragonlance both suffer from the same syndrome. They are old campaign worlds, with dozens of novels in each one that establish what's going on and has gone in the world. There's not a whole lot left in the campaign setting books to send your party out to do. ... except there are other older campaign settings which are incredibly fresh and unique. Look at Planescape. Look at Spelljammer. You can't tell me that those are "traditional" or boring, or dry. I still think that Planescape is one of the weirdest things I've ever encountered, I've never seen anything like it before save in some of my more disturbing dreams. Don't dis things that are old just because you don't like them. old doesn't necessarily mean bad That said... yes. FR is a nice campaign for people who want a very traditional fantasy RPG, ie, where elves are elves and dwarves are dwarves and the economy makes no sense and peasants live like medieval peasants despite crazy magical advances being available, etc. etc. Eberron is for those of us who enjoy being heroes, who like airships and pulp action and intrigue and who like halflings who aren't hobbits and gnomes who aren't tinkers (and even the ones who are tend more to the insane mad scientist of d00m type than the funny "hay lewk betar mouse trapz0r!" type) who like the idea of a society that has used magic the way any logical, realistic society should, who like doses of Lovecraftian horror or Indiana Jones action in our games. Each has its place, each caters to different tastes. *shrugs*
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-25-06, 01:11 PM	... except there are other older campaign settings which are incredibly fresh and unique. Look at Planescape. Look at Spelljammer. You can't tell me that those are "traditional" or boring, or dry. I still think that Planescape is one of the weirdest things I've ever encountered, I've never seen anything like it before save in some of my more disturbing dreams. Don't dis things that are old just because you don't like them. old doesn't necessarily mean bad Age was only part of the explanation. If there's a bunch of Spelljammer novels out there I haven't seen them. There can't be that many, and there's so many spheres... Don't like Mystra, or some other big part of a setting? Don't use that Sphere. That's not so easy to do with FR. FR isn't bad because it's old, but Eberron is better because it's new. Why? Because Keith Baker was able to find out what errors were made in FR and tried to avoid them. Maybe when Eberron is as old as FR it'll almost be as bad, but by then someone would have created a new setting that didn't make the same mistakes that Eberron does/did.
Jancarius 11-25-06, 02:59 PM	Yeah, but Spelljammer and Planescape weren't nearly as popular. There are few Planescape novels, and I've never seen a Spelljammer one. Further, since they are based around the concept of infinte planar travel, it's very difficult to exhaust all the 'plot' threads. I can't speak for Spelljammer, because I was never able to lay hands on it, but in the 2E Planescape campaign setting, they didn't set up dozens of plot threads just waiting to be picked up. They had to spend a lot of time covering all the different planes and Sigil and (BTW, WTF why did the Lady disband the factions? Just read Planar Handbook the other day) so on and so forth. Actually, I've never gotten to PLAY a Planescape game. There's about 3 old school 'from the 2E' days DMs that I know, 1 of which is me. None of us will DM planescape because we don't think we can do it justice. God, I want to go visit Sigil now. BRB
Joni-san 11-25-06, 03:22 PM	Reason why the Factions were banned: The Faction War. Duke Rowan Darkwood did some stuff and all hell broke loose. The Lady got PO'd and banned the Factions after stuff settled down. For a more detailed story go to the Planescape boards. As for Spelljammer: There were a few novells, but from what I've gathered the last one in the series was a letdown.
Azazyll 11-25-06, 04:13 PM	I loved spelljammer, Planescape less so, although i know that it's the one everybody bemoans the most. For me, I miss Ravenloft, I bought almost every single Arthous product until WotC didn't renew the license. And that was a shame. Ravenloft was always the setting with the new and innovative way to write suppliments. The old Van Richten Guides changed the face of gaming, and the Gazeteers should have done the same. Dark Sun was also awesome, and the Dungeon/Dragon re-release a fews years back couldn't do it justice, although it was nice. Thank god dragon still does the once-a-year old campaign settings issue. It's a real reminder of my childhood. One the issue of FR vs Eberron, and indeed eberron and any other setting, I have to say that part of it is that Eberron is new and fresh. But the other thing is that they're not updating the timeline and I hope they never do. You can't get into FR now. Same with dragonlance. It's too late. You can't keep track of the number of World Shattering Events that have happened in the last twenty years of game time. It's absurd. hundreds of years go by without a hickup to speak of an suddenly all hell breaks loose, and then again and again and again. It's worse in Dragonlance (that world was never meant to be played in anyway; it's a novel series turned campaign that only has epic stories), but FR is pretty bad that way too. Dark Sun and Ravenloft were all going that way, Planescape and Spelljammer had it on the horizon before they were all dropped. Let's leave the world-shattering events as possibilities in Eberron, and let the players be the heroes, not watching from the sidelines (and subsequently requiring everybody to keep up with the hardback editions of WotC's novel line). That's the beauty of Eberron, it's a world of possibilities for the players, not one in which they have to watch out not to step on the narrative dictated by the novel line.
miscellany 11-25-06, 06:02 PM	I think it’s an unfortunate that so many people assume a derth of novels and campaign sourcebooks means there is little or nothing left for heroic adventurers to do in a campaign setting. I can’t speak for Dragonlance because it’s been years since I last read novels about the place much less gamed in it, but I can say for FR the stereotypes underling the assumptions laid out in this thread just are not true. I think it’s easy for people themselves to be put off by all the lore. But that doesn’t excuse the perpetuation of inaccurate stereotypes. Me I play in both settings and have a blast with each. I won’t begrudge anyone their preference nor their gaming tastes, but neither will I myself succumb to the false ‘pick one or the other, not both’ choice. Thus why there’s three sides to a coin, not two. Happy gaming to you all. If Rob Zombie were a decongestant I’d be popping pills like a madman right now. <Wipes nose for the ten billionth time>
hcotterson 11-25-06, 06:28 PM	I loved spelljammer, Planescape less so, although i know that it's the one everybody bemoans the most. For me, I miss Ravenloft, I bought almost every single Arthous product until WotC didn't renew the license. And that was a shame. Ravenloft was always the setting with the new and innovative way to write suppliments. The old Van Richten Guides changed the face of gaming, and the Gazeteers should have done the same. Dark Sun was also awesome, and the Dungeon/Dragon re-release a fews years back couldn't do it justice, although it was nice. Thank god dragon still does the once-a-year old campaign settings issue. It's a real reminder of my childhood. One the issue of FR vs Eberron, and indeed eberron and any other setting, I have to say that part of it is that Eberron is new and fresh. But the other thing is that they're not updating the timeline and I hope they never do. You can't get into FR now. Same with dragonlance. It's too late. You can't keep track of the number of World Shattering Events that have happened in the last twenty years of game time. It's absurd. hundreds of years go by without a hickup to speak of an suddenly all hell breaks loose, and then again and again and again. It's worse in Dragonlance (that world was never meant to be played in anyway; it's a novel series turned campaign that only has epic stories), but FR is pretty bad that way too. Dark Sun and Ravenloft were all going that way, Planescape and Spelljammer had it on the horizon before they were all dropped. Let's leave the world-shattering events as possibilities in Eberron, and let the players be the heroes, not watching from the sidelines (and subsequently requiring everybody to keep up with the hardback editions of WotC's novel line). That's the beauty of Eberron, it's a world of possibilities for the players, not one in which they have to watch out not to step on the narrative dictated by the novel line. First: I'm really happy a thread I started ended up discussing Planescape, even though my only familiarity with the setting comes from the famous cRPG. :P Also: I agree that a lot of the appeal with Eberron seems to be that it's new; that is, not a lot has been done in the world yet (in terms of canon), and so players feel important and not overshadowed by hugely popular characters from novels (my perspective: why try to be a powerful, awesome mage in the FR when you know Elminster will always be better?). Please, WOTC, let's keep it this way.
Ryuu_Tenshi 11-25-06, 09:29 PM	I think it’s an unfortunate that so many people assume a derth of novels and campaign sourcebooks means there is little or nothing left for heroic adventurers to do in a campaign setting. I can’t speak for Dragonlance because it’s been years since I last read novels about the place much less gamed in it, but I can say for FR the stereotypes underling the assumptions laid out in this thread just are not true. Dragonlance was murdered by the recent novels. The... what you call it... Dragons of a Fallen Sun onward? Dear god. I HATED those and what they did to the setting. Murdered it. I can see it being played during Chronicles. Anytime later? No. The setting is dead. *cries*
goblin_pride 11-25-06, 10:16 PM	Also: I agree that a lot of the appeal with Eberron seems to be that it's new; that is, not a lot has been done in the world yet (in terms of canon), and so players feel important and not overshadowed by hugely popular characters from novels (my perspective: why try to be a powerful, awesome mage in the FR when you know Elminster will always be better?). Please, WOTC, let's keep it this way. I used to take out all the big-shot NPCs in FR games, the world is fantastic, the NPCs were the part that was broken. For the most part if you lose the 20+ NPCs from the setting you can actually play a game in the 5-9 level range and really enjoy the world. And for the record, I always thought anything past 10th level counted as high-level possibly bordering on epic.
johnkretzer 11-25-06, 10:24 PM	You know it really doesn't matter what setting ( or even rules set) you play with. It is the people you play with.
(Psi)SeveredHead 11-25-06, 10:46 PM	You know it really doesn't matter what setting ( or even rules set) you play with. It is the people you play with. The people are the most important part, but there are other important things too.
Majorafire77 11-26-06, 12:11 AM	Give Eberron a few years and it'll become just as stale as FR/DL. Sad but true.
Flame_Drake 11-26-06, 12:14 AM	Give Eberron a few years and it'll become just as stale as FR/DL. Sad but true. Please don't be so pessimistic man. Drake
Azazyll 11-27-06, 02:48 PM	I agree that we should not be so pessimistic. A few more words are in order: 1) None of the novels, to my knowledge, are changing the setting outright. The gates of night may end with the characters saving the world, but no one back home will know about it. None of them reached epic level. That is how it should be for eberron. 2) Eberron may get more and more fleshed out as time goes by, but there will always be room for DMs to add anything they want in the mournland and Xen'drik. They've kept it that way, and that's an incredibly important roleplaying tool for DMs that no other setting has. It really will keep the game fresh. 3) Eberron is a world of tensions between mysterious powers. It's not a world of blunt confrontations, but behind the scenes manipulation. sure, there's some of that in FR and maybe (MAYBE) even in DL, but not nearly to the complexity or degree of Eberron. And it's all very well inter-related. You simply can't bring every element of the setting to bear in one campaign. And that will keep people coming back to see the rest of it for a long time to come. Eberron shouldn't have the timeline advance because it doesn't need the timeline to advance, other settings do, or they get stale and old. Will that happen to eberron? of course. But I am certain we'll see it have a much longer shelf-life than other settings. Keith baker is a genius at role playing games, there is no doubt in my mind. He was picked out of thousands of applicants, and it shows. This setting revolutionized the way settings were designed.
lordalm 11-27-06, 03:18 PM	I love Eberron for its take on a great many things like the lack of absolutes on alignments. I still like all the other settings. I am currently playing (well its on hiatus while the house gets refurbished) a FR game going off the published adventures. And while some things, like the aforementioned change to Dragonlance, do turn me off. It would still be worth playing in when run by someone who has a feeling for it. Its all about how the game is played. And as GMs if you don't like something, change it/get rid of it. So what if Elminster is the biggest spell slinger outside of the FR pantheon. There are plenty of people (npcs) who claim to be as good if not getting better than him.
aelryinth 11-27-06, 04:29 PM	The problem with many of the discontinued settings was the novels would 'destroy' them. Spelljammer came out with a whole boxed set just on the Spelljammer itself...a great living ship bigger then an aircraft carrier. What did they do? Visited all the normal game worlds, then destroyed the Spelljammer. Yay. What did they do in Dark sun? Make a boxed set covering the kingdom of the Dragon. Then they promptly went out, killed the Dragon and half the sorceror-kings in the Novels. Planescape? Great setting, Factions in Kriegstanz, detailed, multiplanar...lets have one line of novels/adventures and promptly destroy it all! Fah. FR does the same thing. Something new coming along? Trash the old stuff! Heck, they are planning to overrun Shadowdale and Elminster's tower in '07. Wonder how anyone could possibly plan to hold onto land that THREE Chosen of Mystra have claimed for their own? Idiots...how can you justify stuff like that? ELminster himself could kill hundreds of occupiers every day. Sigh. ==Aelryinth
Logos7 11-27-06, 06:37 PM	well I think it come down to it , I dont like the level of gawd involvement in FR. No one can impersonate a mummer because they go comatose as the gawds mess with them. No one can forge someone else's arcane sigil without risking the gawds wrath and the curse of mystra or some such whoey That is what sucks, combined with NPC's who where balanced against a level of Epic play that rarely if ever see's play nowadays, the life out of FR in my opionion Logos
mhacdebhandia 11-27-06, 11:13 PM	There were only six Spelljammer novels, in the Cloakmaster Cycle. The main character was a native of Krynn, in the Dragonlance setting, and hopped around the established Spelljammer universe (including a visit to Toril in the Forgotten Realms) before finding the Spelljammer itself, becoming its true master, and ending up in an alternate universe (an infinite expanse like the real universe, with no crystal spheres or phlogiston) with an alternate version of the Spelljammer. I can only think of a couple of Planescape novels - Troy Denning's Pages of Pain was controversial (it contained a possible "origin story" for the Lady of Pain, and had several sections told from her perspective) but it introduced me to the poetry of Algernon Charles Swinburne so I'll always feel sentimental about it.
Salla 11-28-06, 12:15 AM	Since there are so few of them as yet, and there have been no game supplements referencing them, it becomes easy to simply say that the Eberron noves are not canonical. That's harder to do in FR, given the sheer number of them, and the fact that FR advances its timeline and Eberron doesn't. Perhaps someday, I'll do FR just so I can do it right ... either going back to the past and ignoring the novels and cataclysmic goings-on, or into the future after killing off all the epic twinks. :)
Thwyvylyn 11-28-06, 12:20 AM	I find that reading novels about game worlds I play in ruins things for me. Case in point, Warhammer 40k, Marines in the novels are gods, in the game they are tough but they can be killed. My solution, I don't buy or read the novels. I've only ever read the first book of the Dreaming Dark series and it helped me visualize Eberron in a more concrete sense. The protagonists aren't epic badasses in the ancient tradition. They are powerful to be sure and fairly badass in time I am sure but they will never be godlike I don't think. I run game settings as game settings. You come to me explaining how Drizzt could pwn anything, I will point you to his ECL 18 stat block and tell you to see how he does mono e mono against a full grown Dragon. Novels should not be read if you want to deal with a game setting unless the novels are meant merely to explore the setting rather than advance it.
OneWinged4ngel 11-28-06, 01:43 AM	Novels should not be read if you want to deal with a game setting unless the novels are meant merely to explore the setting rather than advance it. This was actually one of the points I covered when I did my initial review of Eberron... how the way it handles novels and the whole "advancing the timeline" far better than FR, IMO.
Barachiel 11-28-06, 01:57 AM	I've read the first Eberron novels and the only series I've continued to follow was Keith Baker's Dreaming Dark trilogy (just finished the second book and can't wait to get home to book 3). Mark of Death was a flaming piece of crap. The Crimson Talisman was... ehhhh. It honestly felt like it had been written for a different setting entirely and had been shoe-horned into Eberron to fill some quota. The third trilogy that began, Dragon Below, started okay. The characters didn't particularly inspire me, and I get kinda tired of paladins being portrayed in fiction as Lawful Stupid, but the story itself was solid. I may pick up the other books in the series one day. Mainly I read novels for either inspiration or to keep me in the setting mindset as I plot adventures.
Bocklin 11-28-06, 09:09 AM	Man, is there really a need for threads like this? Why can't people just go about gaming and having fun in whichever world they like best without having to start debates on which setting is best, etc. At the end of the day we're all D&D fans and that's more important than anything else. Let the hobby live and have fun in any one (or all!) settings you like. Bocklin
Rauric 11-28-06, 10:02 AM	Man, is there really a need for threads like this? Why can't people just go about gaming and having fun in whichever world they like best without having to start debates on which setting is best, etc. At the end of the day we're all D&D fans and that's more important than anything else. Let the hobby live and have fun in any one (or all!) settings you like. Bocklin True that. My last group would tell you the FR game I set in the Silver Marches made them feel extremely important to the setting. I had them meet Lady Alustrial just in passing and all the other NPCS they met were around 3 to 10th level. If they ever pick up that cmapaign again I will let them keep going past 9th level where they stopped and make even more of an impact in that region. I never once had them meet any of the Companions of the Hall either.:P If I ran an FR group in some of the areas that had epic NPCs, I just wouldnt have them meet the party. The uberNPCs are too busy doing Novel stuff to worry about my current adventure. Greenwood himself runs his games differently than the novels you know. He does alot of political intrigue and "his" realms are a bit more morally ambiguous I think. His games Elminster is a more neutral character as well. He tends to let the worlds history unravel on its own for the most part until ordered my his boss. Unless one of his buddies is in trouble, which is understandable. Both settings have merit. I can say this having played in both and reading over most of the fluff of each campaign world. I like Eberrons take on gods even though I like what they are doing with Mask in the recent Novels. Yes I do not mind the world shattering events. I use them as simple backdrops to any game I run.
lordalm 11-28-06, 03:20 PM	I pretty much treat all novels as something that happened, what ever the setting. I just except the fact that the way it reads and the way it plays may not have much to do with each other (ala the Space Marine reference above. My poor maligned, all other races designed to kill them, Space Marines). It paints a back drop, gives story ideas, wether I like the core Idea of the novel or not (like bring back the mark of death).
mhacdebhandia 11-28-06, 04:26 PM	The third trilogy that began, Dragon Below, started okay. The characters didn't particularly inspire me, and I get kinda tired of paladins being portrayed in fiction as Lawful Stupid, but the story itself was solid. I'm confused, Barachiel. There aren't any paladins in the Dragon Below novels. Are you thinking of the Heirs of Ash series? There's a Spear of Boldrei, a paladin of the Sovereign Host, in those novels.
Adhevan 11-28-06, 07:38 PM	At the end of the day we're all D&D fans and that's more important than anything else. Let the hobby live and have fun in any one (or all!) settings you like. Actually, I'm not a fan of D&D. I use the Eberron setting, but convert it to a different rules system. I've used FR in the past, too, but the difference is that I use the fluff for Eberron. In FR all I used was the map (because I was too lazy/inartistic to draw my own) and made up my own fluff for it. I think these threads have at least a small usefulness for the marketing and R&D departments. Knowing the reasons why some people dislike a certain setting or like a different one is valuable. Whethere they actually pay attention to these threads is another question entirely. The problem with these kinds of threads is in the way some people take them. The more secure amongst the board population see "I don't like X. It sucks!" and shrug it off as different strokes for different folks. The less secure read the same statement and what they actually SEE is more like, "X sucks! And you are bad and stupid for liking it!" Since they don't want to be bad or stupid people, they rush to flaming defense to prove how worthy and wonderful X is, so that they, too, can be worthy and wonderful. Thing is, it's all opinion and preference. While persuasion might be possible, but very difficult, proof is impossible. Which tends to lead to frustration and flaming. Surprisingly enough, this thread has been very civil for the most part. All that said, no, I don't like FR. To me, it has a certain feel to it... as if every person who ever worked at TSR or now works at WotC has found a way to wedge part of his homebrew campaign or favorite PC into the setting. I know everyone doesn't view it this way, though. I've read threads where people rave about the wonderful worldbuilding involved. If they enjoy it, more power to them. I'm not going to think any less of them for it. I'm sure I like things that they would consider stupid. But as long as we don't flame each other, there's no reason we can't disagree on these things. If our solution to every conflict was to hold hands and sing campfire songs, the advancement of the human race would have stopped at the creation of fire and a capella singing.
Thwyvylyn 11-29-06, 01:22 AM	All that said, no, I don't like FR. To me, it has a certain feel to it... as if every person who ever worked at TSR or now works at WotC has found a way to wedge part of his homebrew campaign or favorite PC into the setting. I know everyone doesn't view it this way, though. Any setting that has been worked on by enough different designers for enough years will feel like this I think.
lordalm 11-29-06, 03:41 PM	Actually, I'm not a fan of D&D. I use the Eberron setting, but convert it to a different rules system. I've used FR in the past, too, but the difference is that I use the fluff for Eberron. In FR all I used was the map (because I was too lazy/inartistic to draw my own) and made up my own fluff for it. I think these threads have at least a small usefulness for the marketing and R&D departments. Knowing the reasons why some people dislike a certain setting or like a different one is valuable. Whethere they actually pay attention to these threads is another question entirely. The problem with these kinds of threads is in the way some people take them. The more secure amongst the board population see "I don't like X. It sucks!" and shrug it off as different strokes for different folks. The less secure read the same statement and what they actually SEE is more like, "X sucks! And you are bad and stupid for liking it!" Since they don't want to be bad or stupid people, they rush to flaming defense to prove how worthy and wonderful X is, so that they, too, can be worthy and wonderful. Thing is, it's all opinion and preference. While persuasion might be possible, but very difficult, proof is impossible. Which tends to lead to frustration and flaming. Surprisingly enough, this thread has been very civil for the most part. All that said, no, I don't like FR. To me, it has a certain feel to it... as if every person who ever worked at TSR or now works at WotC has found a way to wedge part of his homebrew campaign or favorite PC into the setting. I know everyone doesn't view it this way, though. I've read threads where people rave about the wonderful worldbuilding involved. If they enjoy it, more power to them. I'm not going to think any less of them for it. I'm sure I like things that they would consider stupid. But as long as we don't flame each other, there's no reason we can't disagree on these things. If our solution to every conflict was to hold hands and sing campfire songs, the advancement of the human race would have stopped at the creation of fire and a capella singing. Koombye ahh....
Dhakaani Heir 11-29-06, 06:49 PM	I don't mean to flame, but dang, I recently purchased both the FRCS and the ECS, and while the FR are obviously well thought-out and interesting in their own right, I was absolutely blown away by the ECS from the first page! It makes the FR seem outdated, and, frankly, boring. The FR are just too traditional. Go go gadget Eberron! This is what D&D needs. I have to say ignoring the content of the books for a second the Eberron Book is much more aesthetically pleasing than the Forgotten Realms Core Book, imo the information in the latest FR corebook is laid out in a rather strange fashion rightaway at the beginning of the book is Elminster, the Prestige Classes and spell lists - the actual setting comes towards the end of the book, (not to mention the art which sucks in places) The Layout (and art) of the Eberron corebook imo is more more accesible to someone who picks up the book for the first time
Adhevan 11-29-06, 07:40 PM	Koombye ahh.... Well, ok... but I am SO not holding hands!
goblin_pride 11-30-06, 09:31 AM	Koombye ahh.... *SMACK*
Altar_Boy 11-30-06, 10:52 PM	Perhaps the one thing I enjoy most of Eberron? There's no centre. No Waterdeep, no Sigil, no New York City. Sure, there's Sharn (and it does make a good New York City). But any place in Khorvhaire makes a good place to plunk a group of new PCs in. The Five Nations, Q'Barra, the Demon Wastes (the tavern called "Dead Before Morning" if you want them to not die). Heck, the Mournland could reasonable sustain them with enough goodberry. FR? A lot of places are created to be explored, NOT to start off in. The Great Dale's mystery kinda sucks if everyone grew up in it. Thay, Dambrath, and Halruaa has too many restrictions; my PCs would be incarcerated/incinerated on Round 2. There are places PCs want to go to (Mezzonbarenion, pronounced Driz'zt's home) that they would never reasonably survive in, but want to go there nevertheless. There's a dozen conspiracies in the world that would stomp non-epic parties into the dirt if we played it realistically. Since I want them to have fun, I have to bend the credibility of the world to let them have fun. Eberron lets PCs have fun and be stupid without breaking the credibility. At least until they doublecross the Gnomes. :incog: I had to argue to them why the Trust wouldn't send Whisper Gnomes to kill them in their sleep. :emp: They're everywhere... :help:
CarrotColossus 11-30-06, 11:26 PM	If you haven't got any familiarity with the FR setting, wouldn't all that other stuff be negated? If you've never read any of the novels then they can't wreck the setting because you just come to the game with fresh eyes.
miscellany 12-01-06, 01:44 AM	Careful massive carrot man! Stating the obvious is not a welcome trait in these parts! Juuuuust kidding. It’s only marginally accepted around here. You won’t face universal scorn. Anyways this is just my way of saying you’re right about what you say oh being of great grandé orangeness. The problem comes when people ‘round here try to trick newbs into thinking they have to read an encyclopedic amount of lore before they can ‘correctly’ play in the Realms. This o' course aint true and all two of us know it. Good on you oh gargantuan mass of vitamins and fiber! ;)
CarrotColossus 12-01-06, 04:38 AM	Careful massive carrot man! Stating the obvious is not a welcome trait in these parts! Juuuuust kidding. It’s only marginally accepted around here. You won’t face universal scorn. Anyways this is just my way of saying you’re right about what you say oh being of great grandé orangeness. The problem comes when people ‘round here try to trick newbs into thinking they have to read an encyclopedic amount of lore before they can ‘correctly’ play in the Realms. This o' course aint true and all two of us know it. Good on you oh gargantuan mass of vitamins and fiber! ;) Er....thanks for the er..... compliment.....
Azazyll 12-01-06, 09:50 AM	If you haven't got any familiarity with the FR setting, wouldn't all that other stuff be negated? If you've never read any of the novels then they can't wreck the setting because you just come to the game with fresh eyes. I disagree, and I tried to get into the forgotten realms ten years ago. Every time I pick up a sourcebook I feel like I'm missing something major. Why was Zhentil Keep trashed? Wait, that isn't something from the Time of Troubles? What's up with Lolth? There's a huge backstory that's integral to the setting and taken for granted. It would take a novel simply to summarize it. I've been buying FR roleplaying suppliments for ten years and I still don't feel like I understand it. And they keep doing it! I bought every single third edition FR sourcebook through Waterdeep, and I realized I'd never be able to keep up. They had to devote an entire chapter in the Player's Guide to simply updating what had happened in the setting since the FRCS, which is, in my opinion, ridiculous. Add that to the fact that I was seeing less and less crunch in the books and more and more pages of mind-numbingly boring fluff, and I just stopped buying them. I was a little worried with SoX that Eberron was going the same way as FR's worthless Mysteries of the Moonsea (not to say there wasn't some useful stuff in SoX), but with Dragonmarked it looks like we've turned a corner.
miscellany 12-01-06, 11:30 PM	Azazyll why did you feel the need to keep up? You don't need to keep up at all to play in the Realms you know! There's no required reading well except for the FRCS but that is easy and it is easy to make up what you don't know and you know that's what DMs do all the time anyway so I'm sorry you didn't find it fun but hey I hope you 're having lots of fun now. ByE!
Euangelion 12-02-06, 10:39 AM	Any setting that has been worked on by enough different designers for enough years will feel like this I think. Actually, I think some of the early Eberron sourcebooks suffered from this. There's Sharn:City of Towers by Keith and James Wyatt (who also worked on the ECS), and it's a great book. Then there's Races of Eberron with 4 authors and I'll just say that it's obvious which chapter was written by Keith. Then there's Five Nations, Explorers Handbook, and Magic of Eberron before Keith (and James Wyatt for that matter) is one of the writers for a sourcebook again, and frankly, it shows. I would say that in the beginning of Eberron there were far too many cooks working on that stew just when consistency and continuity was most important and most vulnerable. In some ways, we're still picking up the pieces. For example, I'm not sure anyone knows how far Sharn officially is from Wroat, because there's three different official answers between Five Nations, Explorer's Handbook, and the map of Khorvaire put out on the web 2 years ago this month. Of course, ultimately it's up to the DM to decide anyway, but frankly a DM shouldn't have to worry about piddly stuff like that because that's information that should have been easy to establish and maintain as sourcebooks were written. Now, Keith has been directly involved in three of the last four books (including Secrets of Sarlona coming out soon), which is good, and again, it shows. I can understand the need to involve as many members of the professional creative community at WOTC in Eberron as possible, so that there's a sense of ownership among the whole community, but that needs to be balanced with continuity of information and consistency of quality. Unfortunately, both suffered in 2005. Hopefully, as Eberron continues to move forward, lessons have been learned.
Messer 12-02-06, 12:11 PM	Personally I dont really see where there is any difference. I look at Eberron as a place where people can more easily run a high volume low powered magic, low level campaign. Forgotten Realms certainly has a lot of developed crazyness, but, in the end, the DM, GM, Storyteller, whatever ultimately crafts the world to make it more to thier liking. None of the pulp Eberron Action I have thrown down with the player has paled tiher adventures in Faerun. Neither have thier Faerun Adventures had anything that the Eberron Adventures don't. I guess ultimately, Eberron is just a new system where we don't feel obligated to 'adhere' too much to the 'rules' of jubber jabber, and smack-platt-blat, or, whatever. Personally. I favour combinging systems.... An old DM taught be about that. He used a lot of his Planescapes information to flesh out the 'Outer Realms' of Planar Faerun. It added a whole new dimention of responcibility to the game! It also aded that pure magic that I am still trying to unlock in Eberron. For my players, I need to learn more about the functioning of certian things.... ultimately, I am fully satisfied with both, and feel it a bit absurd to 'priase' one over the other. Personally, I am thinking of setting the City of Manifest (Ghost walk) somplace near Karnnath! how utterly AWESOME would that be! but, thats just me.
lordalm 12-02-06, 07:42 PM	You mean I didn't have to buy all the Eberron books.... :twitch: :censored: :headexplo :banghead: