fusion and dragonmarks and more [Archive] - Wizards Community

fusion and dragonmarks and more [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TevolRia
01-26-08, 12:35 PM I ask the following as hypothetical questions to see what kind of interesting creations can be brought about with the Fusion psionic power. This could be a conduit for a story arc or simply a quick thing of interest. If anything it could at least take you somewhere close to your creative limits.

If two people with different dragonmarks (or the same dragonmark but of a different size or spell-like ability) were to use the psionic power Fusion, would the fused being have access to both dragonmarks and/or all spell-like abilities of both beings? What would that look like? What if certain prestige classes from the Dragonmarked supplement were thrown into the mix?

I already know that the power would normally allow the fusion to happen as long as the creatures are of the same type, but, dragonmarks are what makes things interesting for such rare circumstances.

And, since we’re on the topic of fusion and the Eberron world, what would the new creature look like if the fusers were a changling and a shifter? How would that work?

And, why not? Let’s go ahead and throw in the kalashtar! A type isn’t listed so I’m going to assume humanoid. What would happen if a kalashtar fused with a dragonmarked character? Kalashtar don’t get dragonmarks, but could fusion be the loophole that could give them an edge against their oppressors?

I guess here is a good place for this one. The fusion power states that you must have the same type as the creature you wish to fuse with. Do you also have to have the same sub-type too?

Here’s a good kicker, what about warforged with different body feats (adamantine body and mithral body for example)?

What happens to symbionts in the process of a fusion? They are technically living creatures rather than possessions (I think).

And let’s boggle the brain just a little more with one final disturbing image: what would it look like/ how would it work if a daelkyr half-blood fused with a symbiont?

Actually, here’s one more: what if Keith Baker and Gary Gygax fused?
skrap-san
01-27-08, 02:24 AM Actually, here’s one more: what if Keith Baker and Gary Gygax fused?

I don't know the rules for all that other stuff, but this one might either be a horrible beast, or the ultimate campaign setting...
Edymnion
01-27-08, 06:48 PM Actually, here’s one more: what if Keith Baker and Gary Gygax fused?I think thats when you get Call of Cthulhu, actually. Cool, dark setting, and you know you're going to die. The only question is how, and when.

(For those that don't know, Gygax is the epitome of Player-vs-DM, "if at least one PC doesn't die per game, I didn't do my job right" type DMs.)
TevolRia
01-28-08, 12:40 PM Ok Ok. so the Keith-Gary thing is pretty funny, but some of the other questions are actaully important.
Syltorian
01-28-08, 04:53 PM 1) Fusing a non-dragonmarked race (e.g. Kalashtar) with a dragonmarked heir: The resulting creature has a dragonmark. By the rules, a dragonmark is a feat, and feats get pooled by Fusion. Racial abilities get pooled as well, so even there the dragonmark's requirements do not pose a problem. After all, you get to keep your mark if you are polymorphed into a shifter or reincarnated as a badger, so why not if fused with a kalashtar for a quarter of an hour?

2) Fusing a dragonmarked with another dragonmarked of the same house: Fusion states that if both creatures have the same ability, they gain the benefit only once. So technically it can gain the Feat only once. By strict reading, even if they have different spell-like abilities, the manifester would have to chose either his or those of the fused creature. By less strict reading, you pool the spell-like abilities rather than the feat. Either way, you gain whatever dragonmark is strongest, because you gain the feats of both creatures - including Greater Dragonmark.

3) Fusing a dragonmarked with another dragonmarked of a different house: This depends on whether you interpret "Least Dragonmark" as a single feat, or twelve different ones. If the former, you chose which mark to have; if the latter, you get both. For story-reasons (most likely not with PCs, but possibly with an NPC), I'd consider a chance of the two marks producing a mixed (aberrant) mark. I could see potential in two NPCs who ended up with mixed marks even after seperation due to the tainting of the marks, but I'm not nasty enough to screw PCs up that way for a power that has cost them XP and lasts only a few minutes.

4) Fusing a shifter and a changeling: I could not find any cosmetic description of fusion in my XPH, so I cannot help you with what it would look like. What colour hair does a fused creature have when one was black-haired and the other blonde? Either way, the resulting creature could both shift and change shape. Given the latter power, it would not normally matter what its true form looks like, since it can look like whatever it wants (provided it's humanoid). You could have a "half-elf" begin to shift. And get into trouble with the Silver Flame for being a werewolf.

5) Warforged: I believe you'd have to chose since the rules state you can only have one Body Feat, and the resulting creature must most probably still be able to fulfil the requirements. If you try to fuse a Jugernaught with the PrC which tries to become more human (forgotten the name), you're in trouble...
Note: I'd use the same reasoning for fusing, say, an Heir with the Least Dragonmark of Storm and a Siberys Heir of Storm: both marks are mutually exclusive by the rules, so you would have to chose which to adopt.

6) Symbionts: Again, impossible to tell what it would look like. Perhaps much of what the Daelkyr came up with is actually the result of such Fusions. As to what it does: you pool all the features of the two creatures; as you say, symbionts are not possessions/items, but living creatures; so you would end up with more powers than an attached symbiont can use.

Remember that in cases 1 to 3, you are meddling with the prophecy. The Chamber might become interested in you (or even the Eyes of Chronepsis), and that is usually not a good idea.

In general, however: this 8th level power lasts only 1 minute/level, has an XP cost, and requires both participants to be willing (one being the manifester anyway), so I would in general be inclined to be lenient. It's not going to be terribly overpowered if you allow two dragonmarked to pool all their abilities. Story-wise, Houses may fear the creation of a mixed mark, the Twelve and the Chamber will be very interested, but the power is too high level (and psionic) and so far too rare for the Dragonmarked Houses to have set any rules for it.

Hope that helps. I am by no means an expert on rules, so if anyone sees a flaw in my reasoning, please correct me!
TevolRia
01-29-08, 12:38 PM thanks for the input. I wasn't keeping track of all of my own questions, were they all answered?
Gurv
01-31-08, 04:12 PM 1)6) Symbionts: Again, impossible to tell what it would look like. Perhaps much of what the Daelkyr came up with is actually the result of such Fusions. As to what it does: you pool all the features of the two creatures; as you say, symbionts are not possessions/items, but living creatures; so you would end up with more powers than an attached symbiont can use.
On an almost related note, I once created a daelkyr artifact in a game I ran which did exactly this. Fused two creatures into one, permanently. It could also separate them.

One of the PCs, a megalomaniac warlock/blood magus name Gothrom Du Ghal, also happened to have a tentacle whip symbiont which he had dominated and used to great effect. It had no chance of beating his Will save, so it generally just gave him more crazy ideas and kept quiet. Of course, it had all kinds of input about what to do with such a sweet daelkyr artifact, all of which was cheerfully ignored by the PCs.

So anyway. Gothrom had the artifact in hand and they were all fighting the Bad Guy who had showed up to protect it. They were beating him, and had already started discussing how to destroy the thing. Then, as a last ditch measure, the Bad Guy hit Gothrom with a feeblemind spell. At first, the players saw this as an annoyance that would have to be fixed. But the tentacle whip saw opportunity. By the time they had finished off the Bad Guy, the tentacle whip had gained dominance over the handicapped warlock. By the time the party realized this, the warlock had activated the artifact. The result was horrific in appearance, and statistically pretty cool too. And it had all the powers of a warlock/blood magus.
TevolRia
02-01-08, 01:37 PM On an almost related note, I once created a daelkyr artifact in a game I ran which did exactly this. Fused two creatures into one, permanently. It could also separate them.

One of the PCs, a megalomaniac warlock/blood magus name Gothrom Du Ghal, also happened to have a tentacle whip symbiont which he had dominated and used to great effect. It had no chance of beating his Will save, so it generally just gave him more crazy ideas and kept quiet. Of course, it had all kinds of input about what to do with such a sweet daelkyr artifact, all of which was cheerfully ignored by the PCs.

So anyway. Gothrom had the artifact in hand and they were all fighting the Bad Guy who had showed up to protect it. They were beating him, and had already started discussing how to destroy the thing. Then, as a last ditch measure, the Bad Guy hit Gothrom with a feeblemind spell. At first, the players saw this as an annoyance that would have to be fixed. But the tentacle whip saw opportunity. By the time they had finished off the Bad Guy, the tentacle whip had gained dominance over the handicapped warlock. By the time the party realized this, the warlock had activated the artifact. The result was horrific in appearance, and statistically pretty cool too. And it had all the powers of a warlock/blood magus.

that's freaking awesome! you know this is exactly the kind of stuff this thread is supposed to inspire.
AlHazred
02-09-08, 12:20 AM I would go with Syltorian's suggestion for the fusions. I like the idea of fusing two (different) dragonmarks resulting in an aberrant dragonmark. What's more, I think it should have much greater power than either of the dragonmarks that fused, and force the resulting creature to be half-crazy to boot (don't mess with dragonmarks, man, they're the fabric of the Eberron universe!)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TevolRia 01-26-08, 12:35 PM	I ask the following as hypothetical questions to see what kind of interesting creations can be brought about with the Fusion psionic power. This could be a conduit for a story arc or simply a quick thing of interest. If anything it could at least take you somewhere close to your creative limits. If two people with different dragonmarks (or the same dragonmark but of a different size or spell-like ability) were to use the psionic power Fusion, would the fused being have access to both dragonmarks and/or all spell-like abilities of both beings? What would that look like? What if certain prestige classes from the Dragonmarked supplement were thrown into the mix? I already know that the power would normally allow the fusion to happen as long as the creatures are of the same type, but, dragonmarks are what makes things interesting for such rare circumstances. And, since we’re on the topic of fusion and the Eberron world, what would the new creature look like if the fusers were a changling and a shifter? How would that work? And, why not? Let’s go ahead and throw in the kalashtar! A type isn’t listed so I’m going to assume humanoid. What would happen if a kalashtar fused with a dragonmarked character? Kalashtar don’t get dragonmarks, but could fusion be the loophole that could give them an edge against their oppressors? I guess here is a good place for this one. The fusion power states that you must have the same type as the creature you wish to fuse with. Do you also have to have the same sub-type too? Here’s a good kicker, what about warforged with different body feats (adamantine body and mithral body for example)? What happens to symbionts in the process of a fusion? They are technically living creatures rather than possessions (I think). And let’s boggle the brain just a little more with one final disturbing image: what would it look like/ how would it work if a daelkyr half-blood fused with a symbiont? Actually, here’s one more: what if Keith Baker and Gary Gygax fused?
skrap-san 01-27-08, 02:24 AM	Actually, here’s one more: what if Keith Baker and Gary Gygax fused? I don't know the rules for all that other stuff, but this one might either be a horrible beast, or the ultimate campaign setting...
Edymnion 01-27-08, 06:48 PM	Actually, here’s one more: what if Keith Baker and Gary Gygax fused?I think thats when you get Call of Cthulhu, actually. Cool, dark setting, and you know you're going to die. The only question is how, and when. (For those that don't know, Gygax is the epitome of Player-vs-DM, "if at least one PC doesn't die per game, I didn't do my job right" type DMs.)
TevolRia 01-28-08, 12:40 PM	Ok Ok. so the Keith-Gary thing is pretty funny, but some of the other questions are actaully important.
Syltorian 01-28-08, 04:53 PM	1) Fusing a non-dragonmarked race (e.g. Kalashtar) with a dragonmarked heir: The resulting creature has a dragonmark. By the rules, a dragonmark is a feat, and feats get pooled by Fusion. Racial abilities get pooled as well, so even there the dragonmark's requirements do not pose a problem. After all, you get to keep your mark if you are polymorphed into a shifter or reincarnated as a badger, so why not if fused with a kalashtar for a quarter of an hour? 2) Fusing a dragonmarked with another dragonmarked of the same house: Fusion states that if both creatures have the same ability, they gain the benefit only once. So technically it can gain the Feat only once. By strict reading, even if they have different spell-like abilities, the manifester would have to chose either his or those of the fused creature. By less strict reading, you pool the spell-like abilities rather than the feat. Either way, you gain whatever dragonmark is strongest, because you gain the feats of both creatures - including Greater Dragonmark. 3) Fusing a dragonmarked with another dragonmarked of a different house: This depends on whether you interpret "Least Dragonmark" as a single feat, or twelve different ones. If the former, you chose which mark to have; if the latter, you get both. For story-reasons (most likely not with PCs, but possibly with an NPC), I'd consider a chance of the two marks producing a mixed (aberrant) mark. I could see potential in two NPCs who ended up with mixed marks even after seperation due to the tainting of the marks, but I'm not nasty enough to screw PCs up that way for a power that has cost them XP and lasts only a few minutes. 4) Fusing a shifter and a changeling: I could not find any cosmetic description of fusion in my XPH, so I cannot help you with what it would look like. What colour hair does a fused creature have when one was black-haired and the other blonde? Either way, the resulting creature could both shift and change shape. Given the latter power, it would not normally matter what its true form looks like, since it can look like whatever it wants (provided it's humanoid). You could have a "half-elf" begin to shift. And get into trouble with the Silver Flame for being a werewolf. 5) Warforged: I believe you'd have to chose since the rules state you can only have one Body Feat, and the resulting creature must most probably still be able to fulfil the requirements. If you try to fuse a Jugernaught with the PrC which tries to become more human (forgotten the name), you're in trouble... Note: I'd use the same reasoning for fusing, say, an Heir with the Least Dragonmark of Storm and a Siberys Heir of Storm: both marks are mutually exclusive by the rules, so you would have to chose which to adopt. 6) Symbionts: Again, impossible to tell what it would look like. Perhaps much of what the Daelkyr came up with is actually the result of such Fusions. As to what it does: you pool all the features of the two creatures; as you say, symbionts are not possessions/items, but living creatures; so you would end up with more powers than an attached symbiont can use. Remember that in cases 1 to 3, you are meddling with the prophecy. The Chamber might become interested in you (or even the Eyes of Chronepsis), and that is usually not a good idea. In general, however: this 8th level power lasts only 1 minute/level, has an XP cost, and requires both participants to be willing (one being the manifester anyway), so I would in general be inclined to be lenient. It's not going to be terribly overpowered if you allow two dragonmarked to pool all their abilities. Story-wise, Houses may fear the creation of a mixed mark, the Twelve and the Chamber will be very interested, but the power is too high level (and psionic) and so far too rare for the Dragonmarked Houses to have set any rules for it. Hope that helps. I am by no means an expert on rules, so if anyone sees a flaw in my reasoning, please correct me!
TevolRia 01-29-08, 12:38 PM	thanks for the input. I wasn't keeping track of all of my own questions, were they all answered?
Gurv 01-31-08, 04:12 PM	1)6) Symbionts: Again, impossible to tell what it would look like. Perhaps much of what the Daelkyr came up with is actually the result of such Fusions. As to what it does: you pool all the features of the two creatures; as you say, symbionts are not possessions/items, but living creatures; so you would end up with more powers than an attached symbiont can use. On an almost related note, I once created a daelkyr artifact in a game I ran which did exactly this. Fused two creatures into one, permanently. It could also separate them. One of the PCs, a megalomaniac warlock/blood magus name Gothrom Du Ghal, also happened to have a tentacle whip symbiont which he had dominated and used to great effect. It had no chance of beating his Will save, so it generally just gave him more crazy ideas and kept quiet. Of course, it had all kinds of input about what to do with such a sweet daelkyr artifact, all of which was cheerfully ignored by the PCs. So anyway. Gothrom had the artifact in hand and they were all fighting the Bad Guy who had showed up to protect it. They were beating him, and had already started discussing how to destroy the thing. Then, as a last ditch measure, the Bad Guy hit Gothrom with a feeblemind spell. At first, the players saw this as an annoyance that would have to be fixed. But the tentacle whip saw opportunity. By the time they had finished off the Bad Guy, the tentacle whip had gained dominance over the handicapped warlock. By the time the party realized this, the warlock had activated the artifact. The result was horrific in appearance, and statistically pretty cool too. And it had all the powers of a warlock/blood magus.
TevolRia 02-01-08, 01:37 PM	On an almost related note, I once created a daelkyr artifact in a game I ran which did exactly this. Fused two creatures into one, permanently. It could also separate them. One of the PCs, a megalomaniac warlock/blood magus name Gothrom Du Ghal, also happened to have a tentacle whip symbiont which he had dominated and used to great effect. It had no chance of beating his Will save, so it generally just gave him more crazy ideas and kept quiet. Of course, it had all kinds of input about what to do with such a sweet daelkyr artifact, all of which was cheerfully ignored by the PCs. So anyway. Gothrom had the artifact in hand and they were all fighting the Bad Guy who had showed up to protect it. They were beating him, and had already started discussing how to destroy the thing. Then, as a last ditch measure, the Bad Guy hit Gothrom with a feeblemind spell. At first, the players saw this as an annoyance that would have to be fixed. But the tentacle whip saw opportunity. By the time they had finished off the Bad Guy, the tentacle whip had gained dominance over the handicapped warlock. By the time the party realized this, the warlock had activated the artifact. The result was horrific in appearance, and statistically pretty cool too. And it had all the powers of a warlock/blood magus. that's freaking awesome! you know this is exactly the kind of stuff this thread is supposed to inspire.
AlHazred 02-09-08, 12:20 AM	I would go with Syltorian's suggestion for the fusions. I like the idea of fusing two (different) dragonmarks resulting in an aberrant dragonmark. What's more, I think it should have much greater power than either of the dragonmarks that fused, and force the resulting creature to be half-crazy to boot (don't mess with dragonmarks, man, they're the fabric of the Eberron universe!)