Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bubba333 11-08-04, 02:36 AM	Has anyone experimented with an alternate way of gaining Feats? I have a player who's PC is training with an exotic double-weapon but they'll only have one Feat slot available in 3 more levels. I was thinking of just allowing them to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Two-Weapon Fighting but two "snags" occured: 1) It's going to be a long time until the get one more Feat slot. 2) It raises questions/quandries concerning the procurement of Feats (for example, what if a 2nd level Bard trains learn martial arts and also studies to use his Bardic abilities on the undead? Why shouldn't he get two Feats?) So, in the interest of making things less restrictive while at the same time hoping to have some versimilitude, does anyone have advice on alternate Feat procurement?
Angelion 11-08-04, 02:42 AM	There are a series of prestige classes which gives bonus feats, though I dont know any right out of hand.
MarkB 11-08-04, 03:44 AM	If you need to get weapon-based feats faster, take Fighter levels. That's what they're for.
twoDtwenty 11-08-04, 04:21 AM	Has anyone experimented with an alternate way of gaining Feats? I have a player who's PC is training with an exotic double-weapon but they'll only have one Feat slot available in 3 more levels. I was thinking of just allowing them to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Two-Weapon Fighting but two "snags" occured: 1) It's going to be a long time until the get one more Feat slot. 2) It raises questions/quandries concerning the procurement of Feats (for example, what if a 2nd level Bard trains learn martial arts and also studies to use his Bardic abilities on the undead? Why shouldn't he get two Feats?) So, in the interest of making things less restrictive while at the same time hoping to have some versimilitude, does anyone have advice on alternate Feat procurement? 1) The character should: a) Take 2 levels of fighter in sequence to get the feats they need. b) Recognize their limitations and forego training with that particular weapon 2) Game balance. If you could just gain fats by declaring that you were training in a particular field every character could have every feat in no time. That's why feats are meted through character advancement. 3) Things are not restrictive. Nothing is barring the character from gaining the feats, nor from gaining them in a relatively punctual fashion, barring the possibility of attribute or BAB deficiencies.
Just another user 11-08-04, 07:43 AM	- Give him a partial benefit from the feats as long as he actually have the slot. - Give him a XP penalty (5-10%) until he have gained the feat - make him pay an action point/session to actually gain benefits from those feats - wait the next level and swap the feat for another class ability (sneak attack dice damage, caster level, skill points, BAB, etc) that he will gain when he would have gained the feat slot (which class is, BTW?) hatever way you choose made clear with him and the others that is an exception and not the new rule.
Brastan 11-08-04, 08:02 AM	Sorry, I just got say that you should try BESM d20. It would be nice to get more feats but that's what experience and higher levels are for. If you want a martial arts trained bard take a level in Monk or the Rouge variant that gets fighter feats. I'm currently playing a Warforged Artificer/Fighter who's going for a trip specialty with the Halberd. It will be a close call getting the feats(for wand wielding) I want and still keep the Artificer skills in good shape but hay its fun. Multiclassing is an art form. At least its better then 2nd edition ;) .
Bubba333 11-08-04, 08:19 AM	I realize how to multiclass and its restritctions, etc. That's not what I asked about. I do appreciate your advice and what-not, but I disagree that multiclassing is the fix.
TheRedRobedWizard 11-08-04, 08:41 AM	Well, you asked how to get faster feat progression... we gave you an answer. What did you expect people to say: "Sure, just give him a bonus feat for no reason."? I mean, come on. Within the rules, the above "take two levels of fighter/psychic warrior" is really the only way. -TRRW
MarkB 11-08-04, 08:55 AM	I realize how to multiclass and its restritctions, etc. That's not what I asked about. I do appreciate your advice and what-not, but I disagree that multiclassing is the fix. Nevertheless, it's true. The reason why only Fighters get bonus combat feats is that only Fighters put the extra time into martial training. Gaining two combat-related feats in a short time is putting extra time into martial training, so taking a Fighter level is the logical way to represent that. Don't think of it as a change in career, the Fighter level(s) simply represent an emphasis on a different set of abilities within that career. Other classes quite simply don't place that much emphasis on special combat training, so the price of sticking with those classes is slow feat progression. Take away that price and you unbalance the class system, and there's no quick-and-easy way to rebalance it.
Bubba333 11-08-04, 09:13 AM	<<Well, you asked how to get faster feat progression... we gave you an answer. What did you expect people to say: "Sure, just give him a bonus feat for no reason."? I mean, come on. Within the rules, the above "take two levels of fighter/psychic warrior" is really the only way. -TRRW>> I never expected anyone to suggest just giving Feats for no reason What I DID ask for was an ALTERNATE to the current system. If nobody has one that's fine, however suggesting that I use the current rules when I'm asking for an alternative isn't what I was looking for. <<Don't think of it as a change in career, the Fighter level(s) simply represent an emphasis on a different set of abilities within that career.>> That's a good way of seeing it. Admittedly, I'm from the "Old School" of D&D and some of my habits concerning it die hard. I also don't think I was clear enough to begin with. The issue isn't that they can't get enough Feats, but that if they train and use the aforementioned exotic double-weapon a LOT and aren't going to see another level for a bit. I guess I could give them the Feats early and they just don't get them later, as somebody suggested. Anyhoo, thanks again for the ideas.
Lina_Inverse 11-08-04, 09:20 AM	Has anyone experimented with an alternate way of gaining Feats? I have a player who's PC is training with an exotic double-weapon but they'll only have one Feat slot available in 3 more levels. I was thinking of just allowing them to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Two-Weapon Fighting but two "snags" occured: 1) It's going to be a long time until the get one more Feat slot. 2) It raises questions/quandries concerning the procurement of Feats (for example, what if a 2nd level Bard trains learn martial arts and also studies to use his Bardic abilities on the undead? Why shouldn't he get two Feats?) So, in the interest of making things less restrictive while at the same time hoping to have some versimilitude, does anyone have advice on alternate Feat procurement? ill second the take some fricken fighter levels.you may train in what ever you want,but anyone who is from old school should realize the level culminates that training its when all that training finally has a benefit that is measureable.someone devoteing most of his time to pursuits other than martial combat(non fighters) clearly wont be spending as much time training his combat prowess.
Bubba333 11-08-04, 09:29 AM	Man! Let me apologize to everyone as I feel I came across rather short. For what's it's worth I've been sick as a dog for an entire week and haven't been exactly "there". That said, let me say that the suggestion to take Fighter levels makes damn good sense. The "real" issue is how to have our Bard get a weapon Feat and some cool Feat to affect undead (merely as examples). Hmmm...I guess the player better get to reading some PrCs? On a final note, what do you think of getting a chracter Feat per level? Yes, I know it's kooky and all, but there are some things that can be learned quickly and as you progress it takes more time. I only ask about this because a friend of mine said he's used it and it's worked, but I'm wary of it as it'll more than likely spiral out of control. Anyhoo, thanks again all. I'm off to scrounge up some medicine!
fizzbang 11-08-04, 10:05 AM	The "real" issue is how to have our Bard get a weapon Feat and some cool Feat to affect undead (merely as examples). Hmmm...I guess the player better get to reading some PrCs? Maybe, but the chances of finding a PrC that's an exact fit to what you want could be pretty slim. On a final note, what do you think of getting a chracter Feat per level? Yes, I know it's kooky and all, but there are some things that can be learned quickly and as you progress it takes more time. I only ask about this because a friend of mine said he's used it and it's worked, but I'm wary of it as it'll more than likely spiral out of control. I really recommend against it. Feats are incredibly powerful, which is why they're generally restricted to one per three levels and maybe another one every few other levels for certain classes. As an example, the fighter class only gets one every other level, and it's arguably one of the most powerful and versatile base classes in the game. Even the "Munchkin" rules for d20 only give one feat every two levels. If you're okay with running a super-powered game, then that could be okay, but it'll be a very big power jump.
spamfiltre 11-08-04, 10:52 AM	Feats are incredibly powerful I have to disagree with this statement, only because there are feats that are actually useful, and then there are feats that become almost worthless over time. Taken individually, most feats are not powerful at all. For example, any feat that bumps a skill or two (skill focus, self-sufficient, etc.) is really only of value at low levels. This is especially true in Eberron, where an action point can give you the boost you need in a pinch. Toughness is the prime example - very useful at first level, especially for low-HD classes, but generally considered a wasted feat at higher levels. Feats - even core feats - are not at all well-balanced against each other, and the proliferation of new feats that give super-hero like abilities shows that they are certainly not overly powerful (edit: in the minds of most players). Some of that argument goes away when you are looking at the right chain of feats for a specific goal, such as the best fighter using trip attacks, but if you want a well-rounded character, or play in a game without a focus on combat, most feats are simply not that powerful. To answer the original post - Feats more often would work as long as you adjust the difficulty of encounters accordingly. Since your description suggests that your player has a total combat focus (a bard who is a dual-weapon fighter who also prefers to focus on affecting undead), suggesting alternating levels of combat/noncombat feats wouldn't solve your problem. If you want to add an emphasis on role-playing, it could encourage players to take feats they might not have otherwise taken, though.
Gurv 11-08-04, 11:03 AM	The "real" issue is how to have our Bard get a weapon Feat and some cool Feat to affect undead (merely as examples). Hmmm...I guess the player better get to reading some PrCs? On a final note, what do you think of getting a chracter Feat per level? Yes, I know it's kooky and all, but there are some things that can be learned quickly and as you progress it takes more time. I only ask about this because a friend of mine said he's used it and it's worked, but I'm wary of it as it'll more than likely spiral out of control. lol. It sounds like you're building the guy backwards. What you have is a bard trying to call himself a fighter. What you need is a fighter who claims he is a bard. Get a lute and a rank or two in Perform. But I know that is not the answer that you are looking for. I would simply suggest giving the feats in packages of four or five levels. For example, give a first level character all the feats he would get until fifth level (2 for a bard, +1 if human). When he reaches 5th level, give him the feats he'd earn along the way to 10th (an other two). Let the other players do this as well, with fighters gaining 4 feats at first level, etc. Another possibility is to just let him have the feats he wants. For every feat beyond what he should normally have, increase his LA accordingly. When he earns the feats back, his LA drops to normal. Basically, he is paying XP for the right to be cooler. If you allow it, allow it as an option for all your players. The problem is that feats are a major part of gaining levels. Giving extra feats, however you do it, is like giving away levels. I understand the mentality that if you spend all your time practicing with a weapon you should become better at it; the beauty of the 3rd edition system is that you do: you gain a level of fighter instead. :dice: Have you considered using the Flaw rules? Several sources have printed anti-feats, each one an in-game drawback that you can take in exchange for a normal feat. Some of them are quite useful as roleplaying tools too.
Bubba333 11-08-04, 11:23 AM	Great ideas all...thanks. I'm just sorry I can't properly process all of it when I'm coughing up a lung. <<lol. It sounds like you're building the guy backwards. What you have is a bard trying to call himself a fighter. What you need is a fighter who claims he is a bard. Get a lute and a rank or two in Perform.>. The Bard thingie was a poor example...sorry. I think I'll just give early Feats and they won't get them alter, if I change anything.
Argonel 11-08-04, 11:33 AM	Here is another perspective. Does the character really need to be completely proficent immediately? Why not have the exaotic weapon and adventure with the dual wepon penalties for a while. It makes the character suboptimal, but it could lead to some good roleplaying. In situations where it is very important to hit they can make a single attack instead of using both ends of the weapon or use action points. I have found that characters without flaws or penalties tend to be bland cutouts. It is much more rewarding to overcome adversity.
Bubba333 11-08-04, 12:00 PM	Good point, Argonel. I guess I need more time DMing to get my groove. I'm great at the stories and all, but I'm so into a more free-form style that D&D takes some getting used to. What does help is the art, though. And the fact that Halo 2 comes out in less than 15 hours!!! WOO-HOO!!!
FenixZero 11-08-04, 01:16 PM	<I skiped most of the thread so, if this has been said, forgive me> What I did with my group is give everyone feat every 3rd and every 4th level. So normal feats would go the like this: 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 12, 12, 15, 16, 18. But I let it be known to my group that the enimes would be reconfiged to match the PCs. FenixZero
Canoy 11-08-04, 03:03 PM	I work with a smiliar system. My group get feats at: 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19 Of course, the CR of the monster goes up a few notches, and NPCs goe by the same system.
Verse 11-09-04, 09:00 AM	Rather than extra feats one idea I have been toying with is allowing people to spend skill points on feats. With the ne psionics book having a feat that gives five extra skill points I finally had a conversion rate. spend 5 skill points get a feat (I may limit it based on class, ie fighters only can get combat related, or I may not). You can spend into a "feat bank" not just ibuy it in one go. When you feat bank has five points in it POP! have a feat. You can begin investing again next level but can't get the actual feat for another three levels. This is mostly to stop people getting stuff too quick. Works for high skill emphasis characters because five points eats in a lot, but you can spread it out a bit. oh and for epic feats you need 10 skill points.
Kaz the DM 11-09-04, 09:32 AM	I give out feats to people who meet whta I think are pre-req in my mind, keeping the characters well ballanced. Examples: Athletic, Run, Iron Will
m15a 11-09-04, 11:15 AM	i don't think it seems right to turn the feat-for-skills feat around and allow 5 skills to yield one feat. consider that a rogue with intelligence of 14 can get 2 feats every level. likewise, compare a fighter to a barbarian. a barbarian can get a bonus feat almost every other level and still have as many skillpoints to spend on skills. (although i couldn't imagine people not using almost all their skillpoints on feats.) so now the barbarian has 2+int skillpoints, a bonus feat at 3rd, 5th, 8th, 10th, etc, and all the regular barbarian benefits, while loses all the barbarian benfits in exchange for 3 extra feats over the course of 20 levels.
Lina_Inverse 11-09-04, 11:22 AM	Maybe, but the chances of finding a PrC that's an exact fit to what you want could be pretty slim. I really recommend against it. Feats are incredibly powerful, which is why they're generally restricted to one per three levels and maybe another one every few other levels for certain classes. As an example, the fighter class only gets one every other level, and it's arguably one of the most powerful and versatile base classes in the game. Even the "Munchkin" rules for d20 only give one feat every two levels. If you're okay with running a super-powered game, then that could be okay, but it'll be a very big power jump. ahahahaahahahaahahahaahaha. the fighter is inargueably the WEAKEST core class.please actully play a game before thinking anything good of fighters.anything the fighter does,the druid does strictly better.
twoDtwenty 11-09-04, 01:23 PM	The only good reason to argue the "power" of one core class against another is if you enjoy "dice augmented competitive algebra."
m15a 11-09-04, 01:36 PM	ahahahaahahahaahahahaahaha. the fighter is inargueably the WEAKEST core class.please actully play a game before thinking anything good of fighters.anything the fighter does,the druid does strictly better. while i agree, that the fighter tends to be a weaker class, if multiclassing and prestige classes is disregarded, i think that in all likeliness, the player who made the most has played dnd before. additionally, you probably made the more incorrect statement. while he said that fighters are "arguably the most powerful" which is a fairly weak statement, you said that the druid does everything the fighter does strictly better. that is too strong a statement, considering the large array of feats. sorry that this is off topic, but if a poster is going to be so offensive to another, i feel that it should at least be know that the heckler is a moron.
kenichi 11-09-04, 02:37 PM	For an alternative idea, you could include a magic item that grants the feat that the character wants. Magic items already drastically change a character and what they can do. You could include it in a treasure as a "random" magic item, or make it the focus of an adventure. Or just allow the character to hire an artificer to craft it for him. Some random ideas for magic items: You could make Armbands of Ambidexterity (They grant two weapon fighting) or Headbands of Weapon Meditation (upon meditating over a weapon for 1 hour you are considered proficient in its use or gain a +1 conpetence bonus to hit and damage if already proficient. This ability lasts for your level in hours). Alternatively if you want a more permanent addition to the character, make magic tomes that instead of giving stat bonuses add feats to a character. If you don't want characters creating these, make them be long lost tomes from Xen'drik and are unable to be reproduced. Anyway, that is a different approach than anyone else had given. Thanks for the thread, cause I am now itching to create some custom items for my PCs. Maybe they won't try to sell these ones. :)
Panhandler 11-09-04, 06:54 PM	Why not go the route of Unearthed Arcana and retroactively give the character a couple in-character flaws to allow him extra feats?
Riksheare 11-09-04, 08:04 PM	Noone's really mentioned a custom prestige class. A 5 level to represent a slightly altered training regime to the standard class. Throw in the few extra feats you need, a smite ability or something similar to cover the undead hunting, and poof. In game balance is kept (for the most part) with the qualifiying and the fact that as you gain levels in the prestige class you are not gaining levels in Bard or Fighter or whatever. Hit Dice and skill points can also help balance things out. This option is ripe for abuse, but you sound like you are concerned with game balance and can reign that in. On a slightly separate note, I like the skill points for Feats idea. As a balance one could restrict the skill point swapping to half of skill points gained or keep the total pool points equal to maximum skill points (ie Character Level +3). This is my first post on the board. Be gentle. Rik
Dr. Benway 11-09-04, 08:59 PM	Two Words: Gestalt Characters. Two More Words: Unearthed Arcana Its just what you are looking for amigo. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall be the victor?
Lina_Inverse 11-09-04, 11:22 PM	The only good reason to argue the "power" of one core class against another is if you enjoy "dice augmented competitive algebra." and?its half the game.so surely we should build our charecters so they can survive and prosper under that half.its kinda pointless to rp a dead charecter. while i agree, that the fighter tends to be a weaker class, if multiclassing and prestige classes is disregarded, i think that in all likeliness, the player who made the most has played dnd before. additionally, you probably made the more incorrect statement. while he said that fighters are "arguably the most powerful" which is a fairly weak statement, you said that the druid does everything the fighter does strictly better. that is too strong a statement, considering the large array of feats. sorry that this is off topic, but if a poster is going to be so offensive to another, i feel that it should at least be know that the heckler is a moron. the fighters class abilitys are all combat feats.and he stops needing those by lvl6-10.now,i see few feats on the fighter list that cant be duplicated as a druid even without takeing those feats.amoung are spring attack and whirlwind attack,which are pretty poor feats anyways.
Kaz the DM 11-10-04, 12:58 AM	ahahahaahahahaahahahaahaha. the fighter is inargueably the WEAKEST core class.please actully play a game before thinking anything good of fighters.anything the fighter does,the druid does strictly better. Druid lover :P
Save-vs-DM 11-10-04, 01:14 AM	In my game I do the following if someone really needs a feat. You may buy an additional feat in the following manner: Spend 2 action points and 500 experience to buy a new feat. You must still meet the prerequisites. Doing this takes one week of training, during which you may only train (no adventuring and such). The 2 action points and 500xp are a big enough cost that most characters think twice about it, and the week of training time is the DM control. A Character may only add one additional feat for each point of intelligence or wisdom bonus, whichever is LOWER (minimum once). I've found this works well, and is balanced. Hope this helps. SvD
fizzbang 11-10-04, 12:15 PM	ahahahaahahahaahahahaahaha. the fighter is inargueably the WEAKEST core class.please actully play a game before thinking anything good of fighters.anything the fighter does,the druid does strictly better. When I said "most versatile", I should have specified , "in terms of fighting". Naturally, a druid, ranger, rogue, or bard can run rings around them in terms of finding information, dealing with people, avoiding problems, and so forth. But when it comes down to simply fighting, it's pretty obvious that the Fighter is the best all-around option. As with all casters, a well-rested, high-level druid beats a well-rested, high-level fighter any day of the week. Of course, the reverse is also true, and a low-level fighter will usually chew up a low-level druid, continuing into mid-levels if they've both already used some of their daily resources: spells and wild shapes get used up, but attacks and feat benefits don't. However, the druid simply cannot match the fighter for possible combat builds and options; even with wild shapes, there are a wealth of tactical options available to a fighter due to their tremendous number of feats. Even the monk can't pull out as many tricks in a fight as an actual fighter: add in the feats from Complete Warrior, and there are even more potential ways for a fighter to rule the fight. Now, to tie this back to the actual point of this thread, there's a lot to be said for multiclassing one or two levels of some of the core classes, rather than making a custom prestige class or doing strange things with the feat progression. Working with the level-based system means dealing with the idea that a character learns things in bursts. Learning from serious combat training is represented by getting a level of fighter or a similar class. Independant, side training means this learning will take longer, which is done with the one-every-third-level feats. Now, there are some very interesting ways to play with this concept (check Heroes and Masterminds' modification of the level-based progression system) or some of the stuff int he Unearthed Arcana books or the like (mostly mentioned by others in this post). But sticking to the base rules is the best bet for preserving game balance.