Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RamblingScribe 04-13-05, 09:37 AM	***Warning this entire thread is a spoiler for the whole series of Eberron Adventures currently available!*** My group just finished SotLW. As I predicted, they killed Garrow. I managed to keep him alive until the ambush at Whitehearth. I also beefed that encounter up a little, but the whole fight still only took three rounds. By the time Garrow knew what a mess he was in and that he should flee, it was too late. My party also has a tendancy do their best to prevent villains from escaping. I've decided to skip WotVB for a number of reasons (a lot of it doesn't make sense to me, my group is really too strong for it, and it really doesn't have much to do with the other two adventures in the series), but I think I'll cut it up for scrap parts. I still plan to run GotEC, and I've decided to have Garrow show up again anyways. I was thinking of bringing him back as a vampire, but that doesn't really work, since he was not killed by one. Any suggestions? I think this will catch my group off guard, since they always suspected that Garrow was not undead, and will probably think the same thing now. Also, I think I'll have him keep up the vampire schtick, so even if they believe he is now undead, they will think he is something other than what he is. Craig Shackleton, The Rambling Scribe
Earthbinder 04-13-05, 10:00 AM	bring him back as a wraith with the vampire template, (he died but was reincarnated by the BoV, then ritually sacrificed for failure and rebuked to perform this task for his masters) that should keep the players in brown boot filler (oh and dont worry about the fact that wraiths cant have the vampire template the humanoid he was reincarnated into was vamped) my :twocents:
Kid SixXx 04-13-05, 10:03 AM	Garrow is a changeling. How does your party know that they offed the real Garrow? I've run the material up through WoTVB, and Garrow is definitely the guy that can have a number of dramatic, cinema-style deaths and still return to haunt the party. There are probably a thousand reasons ranging from the plausible to the ridiculous-but-acceptable that you can use to return Garrow to action. As far as the Whitehearth encounter goes, I'm guessing that you didn't have a large enough force accompany Garrow to make the party think twice about attacking him directly. The best way to keep Garrow alive, IMO (If keeping him alive is what you want to do. If the PC's manage to kill my BBEG by their own merit, it's not my failure as a DM), is to give him a superior numbers advantage in the initial encounter. When Garrow departs with what he believes is the Schema, he leaves with the bulk of his forces, but leaves behind a detachment to kill the PCs. The PC's should be able to thump the detachment with a bit of difficulty, but by the time they polish off the force, Garrow should be long gone.
Makabriel 04-13-05, 10:13 AM	Pray tell, how did they dispatch him? After all, he does have a potion of Gaseous form, if I remember right. ** Nope.. It's obscuring mist and A Potion of invisibility.. But even still, I should think that'd be enough.
Gez 04-13-05, 10:19 AM	I've read other people saying that Garrow was a communal identity shared by a trio (or more) of changelings. Then you can always have simulacra. And clones.
Zentinel 04-13-05, 11:14 AM	Maybe Garrow was a quori possessing a random Changeling. The changeling dies, and Garrow finds a new Changeling host.
Altaris 04-13-05, 11:14 AM	Contingency and Create Greater Undead. :D The BoV know that their minions and 'heroes' are going to perish in battle. For someone like Garrow, who is both a Cleric (who are rare in Eby,) a Changeling (which is useful,) and who apparently is trusted enough to lead a contingent into the Mournland.... Well, I think the above combo is not above realism. Vol is powerful, and served by powerful minions. IMO, she is not the type of villain to wast valuable resources. Afterall, the BoV is all about coming back as Undead anyway.
DarkWarriorKarg 04-13-05, 11:30 AM	I think Altaris is onto something Bring him back as a corpse creature (Liber Mortis or BoVD, I forget) or a vampire with contingency & create greater undead. Why corpse creature? Still keeps his shapeshifting. And his class...
Streamweaver 04-13-05, 11:32 AM	My players are trying to square off against him soon as we're in the middle of SotLW as well. We are so far off track with this module now it's not even funny. Players ended up getting themselves captured at Rose Quarry by charing the EC camp and losing the fight. The whole "Garrow will follow them" thing went out hte window and Garrow had the players figure out the location of Whitehearth, the sealed them in a basement under Rose Quarry to die and struck out himself for Whiteheart. They're not in the Mournlands trying to figure out a way to Ambush Garrow and his crew outside Whitehearth. Anyway, I'm rambling, back to your specific situation. This is one of the weaknesses with the module. In several places it requires the players to act a particular way and this is never good module writing planning IMO. I've already decided to use the contingency that Garrow can be any one of several changlings if the players kill him. I was even going to have have Garrow use some kind of one shot contingency psionic dragonshard that sends his last experiences to the other Garrows in case of death.
Ithamar 04-13-05, 11:36 AM	Well how did your group kill Garrow? Do the PC's (not your players) know what it actually takes to once and for all kill a vampire? Did they cut off its head, fill it with holy wafers, etc? If they only staked him through the heart, then that's not a big deal really. Say that 1 soldier survived, took the stake out, and voila, he is fine again. (But what really happened was that the soldier carted his body out of the Mournlands where he was found to only be at -9 HP, and then was healed.) Out of curiousity, what level is your group? I led a group of 6 Level 2-3 PC's through that, and they barely escaped with their lives. Did you enforce the "No Healing in the Mournlands" bit, or did you let them slide on that?
MarkB 04-13-05, 11:49 AM	My players are trying to square off against him soon as we're in the middle of SotLW as well. We are so far off track with this module now it's not even funny. Players ended up getting themselves captured at Rose Quarry by charing the EC camp and losing the fight. The whole "Garrow will follow them" thing went out hte window and Garrow had the players figure out the location of Whitehearth, the sealed them in a basement under Rose Quarry to die and struck out himself for Whiteheart. They're not in the Mournlands trying to figure out a way to Ambush Garrow and his crew outside Whitehearth. Anyway, I'm rambling, back to your specific situation. This is one of the weaknesses with the module. In several places it requires the players to act a particular way and this is never good module writing planning IMO. I've already decided to use the contingency that Garrow can be any one of several changlings if the players kill him. I was even going to have have Garrow use some kind of one shot contingency psionic dragonshard that sends his last experiences to the other Garrows in case of death. You do need to think on your feet a bit. My players managed to get into a fight with the EC soldiers, and I was intending to have them be captured and then locked up by Garrow in the most secure building in the village - the Map Room! After giving them enough time to figure out the map, Garrow would have most of the EC expedition unexpectedly called away, leaving the players free to overpower the couple of remaining guards and make their 'escape'. In the event, the players, thanks to some luck and the terrain factors, turned the tide against the EC soldiers and slew the Cleric. At that point, Garrow made his appearance - taking the role of a vampire living in the village whose glass-zombie minions had been taken from his control by the Emerald Claw interlopers. He and the zombies 'chased' the remaining EC soldiers away, promising to return to feast upon anyone still in his village before dawn. That left the PCs enough time to figure out the map, grab the goodies from the EC encampment and pack them onto the land-cart, and make their escape to get a good night's rest and healing two hours' drive from the village. My players are absolutely convinced that I was trying to TPK them with the Emerald Claw soldiers, but they are back on track, and currently in the depths of Whitehearth.
Altaris 04-13-05, 11:53 AM	I think Altaris is onto something Bring him back as a corpse creature (Liber Mortis or BoVD, I forget) or a vampire with contingency & create greater undead. Why corpse creature? Still keeps his shapeshifting. And his class... Thanks Karg! By the way, I think a Vampiric Changeling could keep its minor shapechange ability, it is Supernatural rather than Extraordinary. Or do I have that backwards, and undead lose their (su) but not (ex) abilties? Edit: MarkB - That is friggin' hilarious! I love it! :D I lucked out I guess. My players know I generally don't pull punches, and I'm pretty good on description. I had them so scared of the EC camp that they nearly missed out on the Map Room. (That would've sucked.) And when they encountered Garrow in Rose Quarry, they thought he was an actual vampire and fled! All in all, they went right along the module path with very little DM direction.
RamblingScribe 04-13-05, 02:54 PM	A few people asked how my party killed Garrow. First remember that he is NOT a vampire at this point, so all of the stake stuff is irrelevant. My group is a party of 6 PCs who just hit 4th level, along with two 3rd level goblin henchmen. They are pretty tough. Garrow's party consisted of himself, Mallora (Keltis Doran was killed previously), 5 skeleton, 1 Karrnathi Skeleton, 2 Glass Zombies, The Vulture Zombie and 4 Emerald Claw Soldiers. That's almost 2 to 1, although obviously the heroes are tougher on average. It was a pretty quick fight though. Garrow's party was in good shape except the skeletons having been turned. Then the party went cleave-happy and their sorcerer breathed fire and an opening was created for the badly injured Half-Orc Ranger to close with Garrow, and then everyone who was left hit him with everything. He went from uninjured to -8 in a single round. They then made sure he was dead. I houseruled that characters in the Mournlands can heal if they spend an action point when using a healing effect. This helped them be in OK shape for the final fight, but they didn't need to use any healing during the actual encounter. Garrow has a spell of Obscuring mist and a potion of invisibility, not a potion of gaseous form. Also, he had already used his potion in the first encounter with the party. Even it was gaseous form, I've come to realize that it's not as good as it used to be. If your opponents have magic weapons, you actually generally put yourself at a disadvantage to go gaseous. As far as Garrow not being the real Garrow... I don't think this will really work. I mean they've met him twice, and the second time they met him, they killed him. It's not like they have an established relationship with him. I suppose I could have another Changeling pretend to be Garrow as part of a complex mission of vengeance. Thank-you to everyone who had suggestions for Garrow's new undead type. Unfortunately I Don't own Libris Mortis or BoVD, so some of them will be difficult for me to use. Perhaps I'll have him become a -non-corporeal undead capable of possesion, and have him take control of some other shifter. Craig Shackleton, The Rambling Scribe
DarkWarriorKarg 04-13-05, 03:20 PM	Thanks Karg! By the way, I think a Vampiric Changeling could keep its minor shapechange ability, it is Supernatural rather than Extraordinary. Or do I have that backwards, and undead lose their (su) but not (ex) abilties? Misstated myself. Yes, the vampiric changeling would keep it's powers. The corpse template is basically a fully sentient zombie, with none of the drawbacks. Although it is easier to kill than a vampire, it's not vulnerable to sunlight. And keeps it's class levels. I'll try & locate the reference when I get home.
Streamweaver 04-13-05, 07:14 PM	A few people asked how my party killed Garrow. My group is a party of 6 PCs who just hit 4th level, along with two 3rd level goblin henchmen. They are pretty tough. This is pretty much where it went wrong right here. The module was designed for a group of 4 2nd level adventurers. If you were going to have higher level and numbers you really needed to bump up the CRs of challenges. My own group was 6 PCs of 3rd level each. I bumped the Lvl/HD of all the encounters except the Skeletons by 1 level. With a party of 6 4th level PCs Garrow should have been 7th level to maintain the challenge. Even then they may have killed him if they got him alone but he would have greater escape potential. I seriously doubt a 5th level anything could last even a round against 6 4th level PCs.
MarkB 04-13-05, 07:33 PM	This is pretty much where it went wrong right here. The module was designed for a group of 4 2nd level adventurers. If you were going to have higher level and numbers you really needed to bump up the CRs of challenges. Well, they still could be 4th level by the time they reach the final encounter. Rose Quarry took my group up to 3rd (I did boost the XP slightly, as I don't consider the glass zombies credibly only a CR1 threat, not with their terrain advantage and DR). But yes, for increased party numbers, you need to similarly boost the opposition.
RamblingScribe 04-14-05, 08:07 AM	It's funny, I told my players that Garrow was meant to get away. One of them asked why I hadn't bumped him up a level or two, and a few of the other players said 'Cuz then we'd all be dead.' I did up the power of Garrow's group overall, but tried to maintain some internal consistency between the first and second encounter, since Garrow didn't have much chance to resupply. The PCs did wipe out half his group at Rose Quarry. Also, when I re-tooled the encounter, I was expecting them to be in worse shape from fighting the elementals and living spells inside Whitehearth. If I'd known the encounter was going to only last three rounds, I might have used Garrow from WotVB or GotEC, but during my planning, this looked like enough. If I had waited until the next session to start the final fight, I probably would have re-tooled it some more. But really, it isn't an encounter balance issue, it's a player mindset issue. My players, like many players, have two things they hate to happen to their characters even more than dying. They hate bad guys escaping and they hate bad guys taking their stuuff. So Garrow walks up and says 'give me your stuff so I can escape with it.' They all started rolling for initiative and readying their actions. Now I could have just hammered them for doing the exact same thing I would have done, but that would not have been fair. Basically, I gave them two triggers to make them want to kill this guy. If he then defeated them, I would have been punishing them for doing what they should have done. Also, contrary to what it says in the adventure, having Garrow leave an unconcious party with all of their stuff in the mournlands isn't a useful option. I would see it as pretty Deus ex Machina and so would my players. Especially since natural healing doesn't work in the mournlands. Someone would have to rescue them, and that doesn't make sense to me. Plus, I find it unlikely that the party would all miraculously end up in that magic -1 to -10 hp range. Some of them would have died. Of course none of this is that important, because I'm not asking for advice on how to go back in time and change my game. We all had a pretty good time with this encounter, and it turned out exactly as I expected. Now I have to deal with the consequences, and figure out what to do with the encounter with Garrow in GotEC. I've got a while before they get there, but I want to be ready. Craig Shackleton, The Rmabling Scribe
Kid SixXx 04-14-05, 08:36 AM	Of course none of this is that important, because I'm not asking for advice on how to go back in time and change my game. We all had a pretty good time with this encounter, and it turned out exactly as I expected. Now I have to deal with the consequences, and figure out what to do with the encounter with Garrow in GotEC. I've got a while before they get there, but I want to be ready. True enough. Hopefully you're not taking the Armchair Quarterbacking too personally because most of us, if not all, have players that hate railroading scenarios, and most likely we hate them ourselves. Setting up a recurring villain is sometimes a very difficult proposition as you'd like to have closure for most of your sessions. Other than returning the schema to Lady d'Cannith, the endbattle of SoTLW is fairly anticlimactic, and the BBEG making a clean getaway time & time again is a pretty tired cliche in D&D land. Players cry foul the most when villains just HAPPEN to pull a Potion or a Scroll out of their robes which just HAPPENS to provide a quick teleport or invisibility. Most of us DM's really need to learn that having the BBEG get killed is not necessarily a bad thing, nor does it reflect poorly on our skills as a DM. My players got to 3rd level by the time of the endgame I knew that they'd have a good shot at killking Garrow during the final fight. Luckilly I did a fairly decent job of dissuading them from attacking the Rose Quarry directly, as I had Demise make a cameo along with an entourage. The Party had fought Demise in the Dungeon adventure I ran a week prior. I hated to use the old overwhelming numbers tactic, but having them directly assault the quarry camp would make the rest of the module pretty trivial for them. WoTVB will be a difficult module for you to run as is, because the airship battle pretty much hedges on the fact that Garrow is still alive. As most of us have suggested, you could always use another changeling, but that would be pretty corny, IMO. If it were me, I'd skip that module altogether and come up with a different scenario. I'd probably end up using one of the generic scenarios from the Free Adventures offered here at the WoTC website. As far as substituting another BBEG, I suppose you could always use Demise from the ECS, especially if you've run Queen With the Burning Eyes. Her Necromancer / Artificer set up should offer you more variety in her methods of escape than Garrow's Cleric set-up did.
RamblingScribe 04-14-05, 09:13 AM	I hope I'm not taking it too personally too! :) No, I don't mind people's advice and suggestions, although I know I can come accross as terse sometimes. Mostly I just want to make sure I'm being clear about the kind of help I'm looking for. I've noticed a tendancy on this boards that when someone asks a question, a lot of people reply with discussion about related topics, but never get to the question. Hell, I do it myself. In fact I think it's good to stimulate gaming discussions of any kind, as it may inspire someone else. At the same time, we should try to remember to adress the original question as well. Demise is a really good suggestion, except my party killed her too. See what I mean... I think the best way to have a recurring villain is to have them in the background. For example, my next Garrow encounter will be that he leads the attck on Elaydrin's place to steal the schema, and makes a comment to her about her not being as tough as the minions she sent to Rose Quarry. This way the PCs won't even meet him, but they will know he's back. Some of the encounters in WotVB with Lucan work too; particularly the ball, where the PCs can see him, but they can't do anything because of other forces. I may steal this for Garrow, since I'm not running WotVB anyways. Thanks! Craig Shackleton, The Rambling Scribe
Streamweaver 04-14-05, 09:20 AM	It's funny, I told my players that Garrow was meant to get away. One of them asked why I hadn't bumped him up a level or two, and a few of the other players said 'Cuz then we'd all be dead.' At the point of contact of a specific group the GM always has the best perspective of course, I can only comment in general. The point of bumping Garrow up isn't about his ability to fight, it's about his ability to surive. If you want to use him as intended, which complaining about him being killed off implies, then you have to understand Garrow was never meant as an encounter within the module. The players were never suppose to fight him at all so bumping his particular level up should have nothing to do with player death, it should be more about his survivability. For someone trying to run the NPC in the module close to how it was intended, this is important to understand. The most interaction players were meant to have with him was some general dialog, then he was suppose to fade into the background and let them find Whitehearth. Even his interaction with them later on is more of a cutscene and not a real encounter. I'm personally not fond of cutscene encouters or NPCs, but they do have a place in gaming and that is the role Garrow was suppose to have played. Of course none of this is that important, because I'm not asking for advice on how to go back in time and change my game. We all had a pretty good time with this encounter, and it turned out exactly as I expected. Now I have to deal with the consequences, and figure out what to do with the encounter with Garrow in GotEC. I've got a while before they get there, but I want to be ready. And I wasn't offering advice on your game, I was pointing out what happend that made the outcome likely because other folks may be worried about the same issue with the module. Nobody suggested you retroactively go back and change your own game, but for people with similar concerns the discussion is valid and may help people avoid similar complications.
Kid SixXx 04-14-05, 10:30 AM	Demise is a really good suggestion, except my party killed her too. See what I mean... Yeesh, they nailed two in a row. I've had to really work to protect Demise (since she's pretty iconic) and Garrow (since he's pretty much in all of the initial modules), as the party I DM hates loose ends and loves to whack the main BBEG as quickly as possible. I don't think you did anything particularly wrong as the encounter passed the important litmus tests: 1) Your players had fun and 2) the Party seems to have been adequately challenged. Another thing we DM's seem to forget is that our job is to enforce the rules, not provide ridiculous amounts of life support for the BBEG. If the party works hard for the victory, then they deserve to win. A DM should allow the BBEG to die if the players absolutely have him dead to rights, but by the same token, the DM shouldn't just hand the BBEG over to the party on a silver platter either. My best advice upon being informed of Demise's demise in your campaign is to homebrew your own Blood of Vol BBEG, and like others have suggested, make this one undead.
Tom McCarthy 04-14-05, 11:45 AM	Craig, If you think Libris Mortis or Book of Vile Darkness would help in formulating Garrow's return, I can loan them to you. Tom
Altaris 04-14-05, 01:20 PM	So Craig, what do you think about my suggestion? It is not from Libris or BoVD, it came straight from the PHB. From your comments, it sounds like it would solve your concerns about Garrow's return.
RamblingScribe 04-14-05, 08:00 PM	Altaris: I'm probably going to go with your idea. I may go with a vampire, and I'm glad to know that he would still be able to change his appearance. It might be fun though to make him a different undead still pretending to be a vampire to continue to throw off the party. There are lots of ways to justify it. Contingency is one, or even some other BoV tracking down his body and making him into an undead. Since Tom has offerred me use of his books, I'll check out other options there too. Tom: I'll e-mail you. Kid SixXx: Maybe I'll give Demise the same treatment as Garrow and have them tag-team the party. Everyone else: Thanks for your input and sorry if I seemed snippy. Craig Shackleton, The Rambling Scribe