Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bluntaxe 01-02-07, 02:21 PM	I'm new to Eberron and plan on playing a Gatekeeper Initiate. From the fluff I've read they're outlook is very anti-outsider and anti-aberrations. Neither belong in the natural order of Eberron I've found out that one of our other players is planning on playing a Kalashtar who from the description are ancestors of an outsider being fused with humans. How have others and/or the fluff handled the interaction of Gatekeepers and Kalashtar? I haven't found reference to it in the Campaign setting yet. Do they just accept that they are now a part of the natural order of Eberron? Or do they see them like the aberrations, corrupted by powers of an outsider?
Psionycx 01-02-07, 02:27 PM	I've never had the impression that Gatekeepers have a blanket hostility to all things extraplanar. For example, they don't seem very bothered by the practice of summoning elementals to Eberron, nor are they especially hostile to outsiders from planes like Lamannia or Thelanis (both of which frequently show up in the Eldeen Reaches). Their focus seems to be more specific to aberrations, and towards native outsiders from Khyber. Kalashtar do not have either the aberration or native outsider type, and therefore probably aren't even on the Gatekeeper's radar screens.
The White Sorcerer 01-02-07, 05:36 PM	Their focus seems to be more specific to aberrations, and towards native outsiders from Khyber. I think their focus is on extraplanar invaders like the daelkyr. The rajahs, I think, haven't really been one their primary foes.
Psionycx 01-02-07, 06:12 PM	I think their focus is on extraplanar invaders like the daelkyr. The rajahs, I think, haven't really been one their primary foes. There's more than a little bit of overlap there. The daelkyr and their forces were forced into Khyber and therefore watching over the ways into and out of Khyber are a major concern for Gatekeepers. This line gets even more blurry in that the Cults of the Dragon Below are rather insane and disorganized and may worship either or both the daelkyr and/or the rakshasas as their madness guides them. Thus the Gatekeepers are unformly hostile towards the Cults since they are all too likely to dredge up something unnatural from the depths. The PGtE touches on this in the section of Khyber.
yrogerg 01-02-07, 08:08 PM	I'm new to Eberron and plan on playing a Gatekeeper Initiate. From the fluff I've read they're outlook is very anti-outsider and anti-aberrations. Neither belong in the natural order of Eberron I've found out that one of our other players is planning on playing a Kalashtar who from the description are ancestors of an outsider being fused with humans. How have others and/or the fluff handled the interaction of Gatekeepers and Kalashtar? I haven't found reference to it in the Campaign setting yet. Do they just accept that they are now a part of the natural order of Eberron? Or do they see them like the aberrations, corrupted by powers of an outsider? Yeah, there's not really anything explicit written, but I'd expect a Gatekeeper Druid to view such a character, as well as other half-Outsiders and planetouched, with some suspicion, but at the same time, the Kalashtar are pretty obviously not an invading force, and have been around for a long while now. The thing is, they're on the guard of extraplanar invaders, and while the Daelkyr are the most recent (and presently most well-known) threat, it doesn't mean that they're completely ignoring the possibility of other extraplanar threats. It's just that, right now, the Daelkyr and their spawn are the ones they're still dealing with. On the other hand, if such a Gatekeeper were to learn about the Dreaming Dark and the Shadow War...
Psionycx 01-02-07, 09:38 PM	Interestingly though, kalashtar do not qualify as outsiders. The permanent exile of their quori spirits from Dal Quor, combined with the complete fusion of their spirits into their hosts makes kalashtar normal natives of Eberron. Nor are they aberrations, as their biology is essentially human with psionic augmentation. Spells designed to affect aberrations or outsiders would not detect or affect kalashtar. The same does not hold true of the Inspired, who are really extraplanar beings possessing (mostly) human bodies on Eberron. I suspect that Ashbound would probably be more hostile to kalashtar than Gatekeepers would. Gatekeepers seem to have a more nuanced notion of what is natural as opposed to "unnatural". For example their creation of horrid animals. Since kalashtar otherwise conform to pretty normal physiological and psychological standards, I doubt Gatekeepers would find them very unsettling. Ashbound however, would probably consider their psionics as "unnatural" as they do clerical and arcane magic. More fanatical Gatekeepers might be hostile if they encountered the Inspired first. But once they came to understand the difference between the Inspired and the kalashtar I suspect their hostility would wane.
yrogerg 01-02-07, 09:46 PM	Interestingly though, kalashtar do not qualify as outsiders. The permanent exile of their quori spirits from Dal Quor, combined with the complete fusion of their spirits into their hosts makes kalashtar normal natives of Eberron. Nor are they aberrations, as their biology is essentially human with psionic augmentation. Spells designed to affect aberrations or outsiders would not detect or affect kalashtar. The same does not hold true of the Inspired, who are really extraplanar beings possessing (mostly) human bodies on Eberron. I suspect that Ashbound would probably be more hostile to kalashtar than Gatekeepers would. Gatekeepers seem to have a more nuanced notion of what is natural as opposed to "unnatural". For example their creation of horrid animals. Since kalashtar otherwise conform to pretty normal physiological and psychological standards, I doubt Gatekeepers would find them very unsettling. Ashbound however, would probably consider their psionics as "unnatural" as they do clerical and arcane magic. More fanatical Gatekeepers might be hostile if they encountered the Inspired first. But once they came to understand the difference between the Inspired and the kalashtar I suspect their hostility would wane. The Kalashtar may not count as outsiders per se, but they *are* effectively Planetouched. Again, probably not enough to actually rile up the Gatekeepers too much, but probably enough to make them keep a wary eye on them. Also, I thought the Ashbound were specifically opposed to Arcane magic, and didn't have that sort of hostility to clerical?
mhacdebhandia 01-02-07, 10:02 PM	It's not precisely clear how hostile the Ashbound sect is to non-arcane forms of magic. Keith Baker has suggested that their true opposition is to non-natural (i.e., non-druidic) magic, and that even clerics would be counted as dangerous - though less so than wizards, sorcerers, and artificers. Faiths of Eberron describes the Ashbound philosophy as rejecting anything unnatural, as well as the notion that there can be any balance between civilisation and nature - civlisation is an inherently destructive force, and arcane magic is the most dangerous fruit of civilisation. An Ashbound initiate who makes use of arcane magic - for instance, drinking a potion made by a wizard - is expelled from the sect and loses her druidic abilities, but may regain them and rejoin the sect if she atones. The same penalty applies to an Ashbound druid who takes levels in a "structured" divine spellcasting class, such as cleric. Adepts are said to be tolerated, as are spirit shamans, though the latter's association with possibly-unnatural spirits is considered suspicious by many.
Bluebrush 01-02-07, 10:29 PM	The Gatekeepers aren't fans of monsters like the undead, evil outsiders and such, but their main work is in holding back the Daelkyr and the forces of Khyber. It's been mentioned that Gatekeepers are looking at inducting warforged with interest (Immortal guardians to keep an eye on our seals instead of short-lived orcs? Whoo!) so I'd imagine they're fairly open minded race-wise. Really, it seems there isn't a signifigant Kalashtar or Inspired prescence in the Marches, so the Gatekeepers probably haven't formed an overall attitude yet.
Psionycx 01-02-07, 11:38 PM	The Kalashtar may not count as outsiders per se, but they *are* effectively Planetouched. Again, probably not enough to actually rile up the Gatekeepers too much, but probably enough to make them keep a wary eye on them. Also, I thought the Ashbound were specifically opposed to Arcane magic, and didn't have that sort of hostility to clerical? Well as I said, the kalashtar do not have the outsider or outsider (native) type. Therefore, proving that that they are planetouched is rather more difficult than proving it for, say, an aasimar, unless they flat out admit it to you. Given their reserved nature that is something they are not prone to do except with close friends. Most people would never know they're not human until they noticed that they don't really sleep or that they age more slowly. None of the spells relevant to aberrations or outsiders affect kalashtar any more than they do humans. As for the Ashbound, they're not as aggressive in hostility against clerics as they are against arcane spellcasters, but based on their internal prohibition against their druids taking on clerical levels one can be sure they aren't big fans of it either. Clerics also tend to either be heavily associated with civilization and churches like the Sovereign Host or the Silver Flame, or else unnatural cultists like the Blood of Vol or the Cults of the Dragon Below. Hence they are not to be trusted. Likewise, the kalashtar seem to favor civilized life over "nature" (as the Ashbound define it), possibly because the quori are city dwellers even on their own plane and, psionics aside, kalashtar don't seem to think too much about the difference between "natural" and "unnatural" (again as the Ashbound define such things).
Dawn_of_an_Age 01-03-07, 02:15 PM	I'm new to Eberron and plan on playing a Gatekeeper Initiate. From the fluff I've read they're outlook is very anti-outsider and anti-aberrations. Neither belong in the natural order of Eberron I've found out that one of our other players is planning on playing a Kalashtar who from the description are ancestors of an outsider being fused with humans. How have others and/or the fluff handled the interaction of Gatekeepers and Kalashtar? I haven't found reference to it in the Campaign setting yet. Do they just accept that they are now a part of the natural order of Eberron? Or do they see them like the aberrations, corrupted by powers of an outsider? From my understanding of the material. Its not even public knowledge what the Kalashtar are. There may be rumors. But it seems to me that anyone dealing with Kalashtar are on a need to know basis, and I dont think those who know go around telling everyone. Kindof the same vein as no one really understands who the Inspired are, and if someone were to try and tell them that their really evil "Outsiders" trying to take over the world who would believe them. So with all of that being said. My first question to you, is: Is your DM even allowing your PC to know the true origins of the Kalashtar? If not then it becomes a mute point, and if you find out in game well then you can roleplay accordinly. It would at that time become new information in your game, so what opinions would your character form having found out thios new information. There are at this point many variables that can become involved. 1. What type of relationship have the 2 characters formed? Do they love or hate each other. 2. Obviously the PC is one of the good guys as are his race (generally speaking) so does that take effect. These are the gray areas of Eberron. Is your charater so one dimentional that the very nature of an outsider offends him or does the "story of the character matter" does your character allow individuals to stand on their own merit, or does he just hate outsiders; good, bad, or otherwise? I could go on but I thing you probably get the jist of what I am saying. Just my 2 cents. :)
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 01-03-07, 03:16 PM	I expect Gatekeepers would initially be a little wary of kalashtar at the least. However, I expect that if trust forms, they would become staunch allies. The kalashtar strongly oppose the machinations of the Dreaming Dark - essentially an extraplanar invasion (if a subtle one). Gatekeepers fight extraplanar invasions. So I imagine that would be common ground. Especially if the Gatekeeper in question is familiar with the Quori incursion back in giant-ruled Xendrik. Mind you, it can't be the kalashtar telling the Gatekeeper all about this. ;)
Bluntaxe 01-03-07, 03:43 PM	Thanks everyone, you are giving me some good ideas to play with. Mind you, it can't be the kalashtar telling the Gatekeeper all about this. ;) Can you explain this statement further? Why can't the Kalashtar tell anyone of Quori incursion?
The White Sorcerer 01-03-07, 04:34 PM	Why can't the Kalashtar tell anyone of Quori incursion? They want their secret war to stay that way.
ahiman 01-03-07, 05:01 PM	Well all of what has been said prerequires that the gatekeeper knows the history of the Kalashtar. In all likelyhood the gatekeeper would just think that the Kalashtar was a human, some wierd human like thing(half-elfs) or just think he was some new fangled race the world had made some how. Just thoughts
Dawn_of_an_Age 01-03-07, 05:11 PM	Well all of what has been said prerequires that the gatekeeper knows the history of the Kalashtar. In all likelyhood the gatekeeper would just think that the Kalashtar was a human, some wierd human like thing(half-elfs) or just think he was some new fangled race the world had made some how. Just thoughts Thats what I said....:confused: :)
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 01-03-07, 11:19 PM	Thanks everyone, you are giving me some good ideas to play with. Can you explain this statement further? Why can't the Kalashtar tell anyone of Quori incursion? What I meant was this: A) Gatekeeper knows that there is something extraplanar about kalashtar (otherwise the whole topic is moot). Therefore the Gatekeeper is not very likely to trust the kalashtar. B) The kalashtar says, "No, you can trust me. I'm fighting a secret extraplanar invasion that nobody knows about." Given A, would the Gatekeeper believe B? Maybe if the Gatekeeper trusted the person saying B, but we established that isn't too likely. Therefore someone else must convince the Gatekeeper that the kalashtar is on his/her side. Or the kalashtar has to save the Gatekeeper's life in a way that ends all doubt.
Psionycx 01-04-07, 12:01 AM	Of course, first the Gatekeeper needs to figure out that there's something extraplanar about the kalashtar. There is nothing evident to physical or magical detection that would indicate it. Then it has to be determined how much the Gatekeeper would care. Remember that extraplanar threats aren't the only thing they worry about. There's lots of stuff lurking in Khyber that is not technically extraplanar that are nonetheless major concerns for Gatekeepers. Conversely, there's plenty of outsiders (especially fey from Thelannis) that are running around loose that the Gatekeepers barely give a second thought to. What I mean is the whole extraplanar thing is overly simplistic. The Gatekeepers don't just wave rakshasas through when they come up from Khyber just because they're technically native to the Material Plane, while slamming the Stop sign in front every outsider they run across. Add to this the fact that kalashtar aren't outsiders, nor are they aberrations. Aasimar, genasi and tieflings at least have physical outsider ancestry. The kalashtar bond with their quori is entirely spiritual. Biologically they're humans. So while the Gatekeeper might be suspcious I think it would be out of character for them to fly off the handle immediately. They're likely to make a judgement call. Kalashtar are not directly antithetical to nature any more than humans.
Cloud Divider 01-05-07, 06:58 PM	Numerous good points made... How you work it out in play is going to be VERY MUCH dependent on the social dynamics between the player of the Gatekeeper and the player of the Kalashtar primarily, and the GM/rest of the table secondarily. Yes, you can have some very interesting drama between the suspicious Gatekeeper who gets a funky vibe from the Kalashtar, who is most likely not telling everything he knows (re: the Secret War), and is likely to be intentionally inscrutable in general (and particularly oblique when it comes to the Quori/Inspired/etc). There's likely to be similar drama in the other direction (Kalashtar to Gatekeeper) as well - they are could be very powerful allies, if they could figure out a way to approach them). You'd definitely want to consider talking about it with the Kalashtar player - make sure both parties are interested in following that particular subplot. If the Kalashtar player just wants to kick Quori butt (and whatever else happens to present itself), it'd probably be a bad idea to pursue it beyond a cursory gloss over (y'know, a brief statement like "Y'know, Kalashtar-dude, I used to think you were some kind of crazy moon-spawn cultist out to eat my soul. But you're actually a pretty decent guy after all. Thanks for watching my back when those Riedran assassins jumped us..."). That said, while it could ideally lead to some very interesting gameplay, playing out the drama could cause unnecessary friction at the game table. If the players aren't totally comfortable with each other, it's very easy to perceive an in-character slight (ie the Gatekeeper's suspicion) as an out-of-character slight (ie a personal attack). And that can devolve into a very ugly situation very easily, sucking the fun out of the game for everybody. Potentially breaking up the game in the worst-case scenario. Also important to consider, is whether or not everyone else at the table is cool with having this ongoing subplot. Playing it out in-game involves everyone else at the table, including the GM. So even if they're not directly involved, they're investing time into it. Ditto for the GM - gameplay spent on this interpersonal conflict is less time spent on whatever the GM had planned. If everyone's cool with that (ie has fun as a spectator or everyone can get involved somehow), rock on. In my Eberron campaign, we had a pretty healthy dose of tense interpersonal drama, between a (less than sterling) Paladin of the Silver Flame, a Kalashtar (with the obligatory mysterious past), and the Warforged acting as a mediator of sorts (along with a postwar identity-quest psychodrama of his own). It was tons of fun, and some of the most enjoyable gaming I'd had in quite some time. Really solid, mature players, and it made the game just phenomenal...
Neutronium_Dragon 01-06-07, 09:57 PM	The Gatekeepers are primarily concerned with preventing planar invasions; thus far only Xoriat and Dal Quor have presented that threat on any significant scale. The inhabitants of Fernia, Thelanis, and so on just aren't interested in invasion (at least not generally), which would be why the Gatekeepers aren't particularly concerned when the occasional inhabitant of one of those planes wanders by. The Gatekeepers would probably be very concerned about Quori if they realized what was actually going on on that front, but thus far Dal Quor's dirty little secret hasn't become public knowledge. If it did, the Gatekeepers would almost certainly start trying to figure out how to set up planar seals (or some equivalent) to block off Dal Quor, too.
yrogerg 01-06-07, 10:27 PM	The Gatekeepers are primarily concerned with preventing planar invasions; thus far only Xoriat and Dal Quor have presented that threat on any significant scale. The inhabitants of Fernia, Thelanis, and so on just aren't interested in invasion (at least not generally), which would be why the Gatekeepers aren't particularly concerned when the occasional inhabitant of one of those planes wanders by. The Gatekeepers would probably be very concerned about Quori if they realized what was actually going on on that front, but thus far Dal Quor's dirty little secret hasn't become public knowledge. If it did, the Gatekeepers would almost certainly start trying to figure out how to set up planar seals (or some equivalent) to block off Dal Quor, too. Well, if those exist, they're already in place, thanks to the Giants; there are no known Manifest Zones of Dal Quor, and whereas Xoriat may just be Remote, Dal Quor is Permanently Remote (and has been remote for far longer), and unlike normally remote planes (including Xoriat), cannot be reached by any means other than Astral Projection or that whole dreaming thing.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-07-07, 05:51 AM	That's true, but that's also what those monoliths over in Sarlona are slowly undoing. For the Gatekeepers, putting up more keep-them-remote seals is probably more practical than trying to march over to Sarlona and destroy the monoliths.