Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azazyll 11-13-06, 11:40 AM	I could barely force myself to put this book down. What a weekend to have company! I love these characters, I loved learning so much about Thelanis (which feels very tied into the rest of Eberron now, and not just the plane of the Fey that we've all seen before). Once again, Keith has taken something nobody focused much on in Eberron or that felt under-connected and made it shine with an Eberronian brilliance to dim all twelve moons and the ring of Syberis. That said, Keith, I thought this was going to have a nice conclusion, and I got a cliffhanger. Not like Shattered Land cliffhanger, the main thrust of the plot is finished, but a cliffhanger none the less. Please, Keith, O wise and merciful Hellcow, creator of worlds that rocketh my socks off, and writer of characters I actually care about, don't leave me hanging. Will there be another book? Will we ever find out what happens to Daine and Jode? Is it Daine that woke up or is it Kin the Shifter? Or something worse? What happened to Xu? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAGH!
WarlockOfSiberys 11-13-06, 03:56 PM	My thoughts exactly, among many, many other things. I feel your pain, for it is my own.
Ellorin 11-14-06, 04:04 AM	I couldn't agree more.
Ryltar Swordsong 11-14-06, 07:10 AM	I think that it's the spirit of the soldier (who was the basis for the Bier of the Sleeper) in Daine's body. Thelania probably wanted him back or made a deal with him to bring him back. Just MHO.
Azazyll 11-14-06, 09:28 AM	I think that it's the spirit of the soldier (who was the basis for the Bier of the Sleeper) in Daine's body. Thelania probably wanted him back or made a deal with him to bring him back. Just MHO. That's a really good idea. There had to be a reason for the scabbard. Still, with changlings around, you can't ever know what's going on until it's been spelled out for you, right? But your idea is much more original.
Androlphas 11-15-06, 02:56 PM	Just finished reading it. That's all I'm gonna say :banghead:
Euangelion 11-15-06, 03:51 PM	Hopefully that top-secret project Keith mentioned on his website is actually another trilogy!
eehamburg 11-15-06, 03:57 PM	Hopefully that top-secret project Keith mentioned on his website is actually another trilogy! Now wouldn't that be interesting and exciting ... imagine if it was some sort of continuation (albiet different) than the series that he just finished?
Hellcow 11-15-06, 04:15 PM	I'll say that the still-top-secret-project is not another novel series. However, it is certainly my hope to continue working on novels in the future. I've already determined what would happen next for the Dreaming Dark crew; my goal was to at least wrap up the current story arc, but to leave lots of interesting threads to explore in "season two". The question is whether that's what people would like to see next. At the moment, I'm considering three ideas: The Dreaming Dark II. Not dealing with the Dreaming Dark as such, but picking up on all the unresolved issues in Gates of Night while exploring a new aspect of the setting. Tolar and Zaehr.More with the inquisitives from "Principles of Fire" (my novella in Dragons: Worlds Afire). What's Behind Door #3. I have a third idea I've been developing, which would focus on a previously unseen character and follow a very different sort of storyline. If you'd like to see more novels from me and have a strong opinion about what you'd like to see, speak up! Needless to say, I'm interested in hearing what people thought of The Gates of Night. I'm curious to see what conclusions people have reached (such as the discussion already under way), and I'm always happy to receive constructive criticism. While it looks like it's safe to discuss things here, you can also use this book club thread. (http://worldsofdnd.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=36&sid=33d36ca5e6f32b1a38b67bbce3bd1bb2)
eehamburg 11-15-06, 05:28 PM	I'll say that the still-top-secret-project is not another novel series.! Gosh Darn It! However, it is certainly my hope to continue working on novels in the future. I've already determined what would happen next for the Dreaming Dark crew; my goal was to at least wrap up the current story arc, but to leave lots of interesting threads to explore in "season two".Now this is something that I would like to see more of and know more of... continuations of characters and more building of their stories. All good.
Joni-san 11-15-06, 07:22 PM	*Wonders if the "Top Secret" project might have something to do with more Eberron comics. More "Eye of the Wolf" would be great, no?* *Doubts the possibility*
Eriedm 11-15-06, 08:00 PM	Please consider my vote cast for Dreaming Dark 2 please.
AvonRekaes 11-15-06, 11:46 PM	Please consider my vote cast for Dreaming Dark 2 please. I second the motion. *holds up cardboard sign with "MORE JODE" written on it*
Sereno 11-16-06, 09:36 AM	Just started "Gates of Night" and loving every page of it.... Did I misread something, or is there only one moon (which doesn't seem to move) in Thelanis? Does this hint that there IS a connection between planes and moons here-to-for unrevealed?
Harker Wade 11-16-06, 11:25 AM	Dreaming Dark 2 is my vote as well... though I am intrigued by 'door #3', because Hellcow is creative, but without any info then what he said more - Lei, Pierce, Jode, Daine and Xu, please? P.S. Gates of Night was great!!
Bluebrush 11-16-06, 12:20 PM	Any of the three would be good, especially DDDeux. I'd also be interested from something written from a unusual cultural viewpoint. So far most of the protagonists of the novels we've seen have been human Galifarans. Maybe something from the perspective of, say a Darguul or a Seren tribesman. Heck, Gnomes. I think Hellcow mentioned he would have wanted to squeeze in a trip to Zilargo at some point in GoN.
MJMurtha 11-16-06, 05:23 PM	Hi All, I'll throw in my vote for Dreaming Dark II. I liked Gates of Night but felt that the ending seemed a little rushed and felt murky. I was also left very unsatisfied by the "cliffhangers." All the time spent developing the situations with various characters and no resolution to many of them. I'd be okay with that if I KNEW there was going to be another trilogy or whatever wrapping things up I would not as felt as cheated as the book left me feeling. I'm okay with stories not "truly" ever ending cause things don't and Eberron should have that The Long Twilight Struggle feel. It felt like the production company ran out of money and just ended the movie where they finished filming. This ends up sounding more negative than I'd like because Eberron has given me and my gaming group over a year of solid gaming joy in two campaigns. Keith's trilogy was my first recommendation of all the novels before this book. I hope if something new comes out it will be back at the top.
Arcane Guyver 11-16-06, 08:06 PM	I liked 'Gates of Night.' Xu'sassar (think I spelled that right) was a breath of fresh air, and I'm sure she alone will sell others on Eberron-style drow. Crunch-wise, she's a Ninja, correct? All that said, I must voice my annoyance at cliffhanger(s) at the end of a trilogy. Whereas I dropped book 2 to the floor after reading the 'ending,' I actually threw book 3 across the room. I expected loose ends in the first two installments in a trilogy, because there's still hope for closure in book 3. Good book, but kind of unsatisfying.
Hellcow 11-16-06, 10:30 PM	All that said, I must voice my annoyance at cliffhanger(s) at the end of a trilogy. Duly noted. I am still learning what works and what doesn't. Personally, I like the touch of suspense and mystery; cliffhangers and pulps go hand in hand, and there's a lot of clues as to what's going on there spread throughout the series. But just because *I* like it isn't an excuse to torment my readers. :) Just out of curiosity, would you have been happier if you hadn't read the epilogue? (I'm thinking I could race out and put "Don't read the epilogue!" stickers on copies at local stores!) And I am curious to hear people's reactions to Xu, so thanks for the feedback.
Flame_Drake 11-16-06, 10:36 PM	Okay, I for one like the ending. Everyone who doesn't can answer to him :coolcthul I'm joking about the seconded bit but I really do like not having everything work out perfectly in the end. Gives me something to look forwards to. Drake
AvonRekaes 11-16-06, 11:21 PM	Actually, yeah, I think I would have been more satisfied without the epilogue. The epilogue raises too many questions for an epilogue to a trilogy (I tend to think of epilogues as wrap-up).
Hellcow 11-17-06, 12:01 AM	Actually, yeah, I think I would have been more satisfied without the epilogue. Fair enough!
Siberys 11-17-06, 12:30 AM	Yeah... DDII seconded, or thirded, or whatever it is. Though this "curtain #3" idea is certainly tantalizing... I have grown attached to the DD crew, though, so I'd LOVE to see mor of them ANYDAY. Cheers, Siberys
Ryltar Swordsong 11-17-06, 04:24 AM	Duly noted. I am still learning what works and what doesn't. Personally, I like the touch of suspense and mystery; cliffhangers and pulps go hand in hand, and there's a lot of clues as to what's going on there spread throughout the series. But just because *I* like it isn't an excuse to torment my readers. :) Just out of curiosity, would you have been happier if you hadn't read the epilogue? (I'm thinking I could race out and put "Don't read the epilogue!" stickers on copies at local stores!) And I am curious to hear people's reactions to Xu, so thanks for the feedback. I think the epilogue would go over better if people knew for sure that the story would continue in another book (or books if a trilogy). That way we/they would have something to look forward too, including some kind of closure. I liked the epilogue because it made me wonder what is next. Xu was well written IMO. I think you really captured the mindset of an "uncivilized" character.
eehamburg 11-17-06, 08:46 AM	Duly noted. I am still learning what works and what doesn't. Almost as if you are still learning? Well ... cliffhangers are good only when they have something next that wraps them up ... if you are left with just questions, you can only be held off for so long before it gets annoying. Take LOST for instance. It is always mystery, always cliffhangers, always keeping you in suspense, but if they don't start giving you some answers about the island and the people, then how many people will stay around for seasons to come? probably not many. People, in general, like endings to their stories where they can figure out where everything goes and how some things fit together. If it isn't there, they are left wanting more ... like another book ... for instance. Just my 2 cents worth. Something to think about Keith. Just out of curiosity, would you have been happier if you hadn't read the epilogue? (I'm thinking I could race out and put "Don't read the epilogue!" stickers on copies at local stores!) Except that if you did that, then people will immediately go straight to that because people always want to know why they can't do something first before hand ... kind of like why are there speed limits on the highways? people are always going faster. Feels like breaking the law in comparison. Eric
Euangelion 11-17-06, 08:57 AM	Xu is really well done, and the triangle between Xu, Daine, and Lei is of course interesting. I liked that Daine developed the mark he did, rather than the one I suspected he would since City of Towers. As I read it, I literally had the thought "Oh boy, we get to go to Thelanis!" (I worry about myself sometimes!) I do wonder how much time passed on Eberron while they were on Thelanis. It was interesting to see certain issues and ideas that have been discussed on these boards reflected in the plot (planar issues, the role of powerful entities with regards to events on Eberron, etc.) I find the idea that it's possible some souls might go elsewhere than Dolurhh(sp?) to be a very interesting concept. Perhaps there's an equivalent entity to the SF made up of the souls revered by the Valenar; i.e. another eidolon. Which reminds me, do you (personally, not binding on anyone else's game) consider the SF to be an eidolon, Keith?
Azazyll 11-17-06, 09:21 AM	Don't listen to them Keith! For someone "still learning" (and who ever really stops learning?) you're a master. Yes, I would love to see more on the DD characters. I really care about them, even the new edition of Xu who became integral to the series so quickly (but more Jode! MORE JODE!). But as to cliffhangers, I've hated every book with a cliffhanger ending I've ever read. Until now. Somehow, it just made me like it more. And I hated the Giver, which apparently makes me a bad person with no literary taste. Hmmmmm... not selling myself as someone who's literary tastes you should be listening to, am I? Also, I would very much like to know more about the Tooth of the Wanderer. As for Xu, I'd say she had levels in the Scorpion Wraith from SoX. That would account for a lot of the shadow stuff and fit with the drow theme more. But her base class could also be at least partially ninja. And on a side note, what exactly does everyone think Daine's Abberant Mark (or Heir of Khyber mark) do? We got a possible prismatic spray at the end. But maybe some other light based attack. Could also have been the eidolon at work. Maybe it was what empowered his sword? I'm curious to see what people think
Hellcow 11-17-06, 11:37 AM	People, in general, like endings to their stories where they can figure out where everything goes and how some things fit together. Well, two factors here. I'm going to spoiler-block even though it's not much more spoiler-y than anything that's been done. First off, it may not be clearly stated, but *I've* always been planning to do more. Throughout the series, a lot of groundwork has been laid for what comes next. You bring up Lost; my comparison would be 24. Over the course of the season, there is a specific villain and story arc. By the end of the season, that story arc has concluded. But things have been set in motion for the next season (and in fact, the last two seasons have both had fairly cliff-hangery endings!). At the end of the trilogy, Lakashtai has been defeated. The orb has been destroyed. The Dreaming Dark is still around, but it's back on its slow agenda. However, there are unanswered questions that will play a major role in what comes next. Tied to this is the comparison between the end of book two and book three. Book three begins seconds after book two. Book three ends with something of a cliffhanger, but the next story arc could easily pick up months after book three... much like 24. We'd need to do some backtracking - how did they get out of Sarlona, if they have - but as far as Pierce and Lei are concerned, once Lei makes sure it's Daine and not Kin (she's no dummy), things are OK. It's a cliffhanger, but of a different order. Furthermore, as has been pointed out, time passes far faster in Dal Quor than it does in Eberron. If you don't WANT to think of it as a cliffhanger, you can always choose to take things at face value. Daine says "It's good to be home." Perhaps that's exactly what it appears to be - he was stranded in Dal Quor for a brief period of time, but somehow, Lei has managed to pull him back. My thing is that I like ongoing stories, but I hate stories that NEVER end. One example of this is Sherri S. Tepper's True Game books. The Peter books and Jinian books overlap directly in story; Jinian Star-Eye directly follows Wizard's Eleven, and Wizard's Eleven ends with an enigmatic pronouncement even though it was years before JSE followed up on it. But Wizard's Eleven was nonetheless the clear end of a story arc. There was a sense of conclusion, but also the clear sense that there WAS more to come, even if it was unclear exactly when it would happen. On the other hand, you have A Song of Ice and Fire. I LOVE these books. But I hate the fact that it just keeps spinning out longer and longer and longer. I don't NEED it ALL to come to an end. But I'd like a sense of focus instead of the story snowballing with every book. A critical part of this is Arya's adventures. When I saw her get on the boat, what I wanted was an Arya NOVEL... instead of tying it to the main story and just dribbling out bits of info over the course of years, give me a single, solid story... just as Sherri S. Tepper gave me a solid, concrete Jinian story before coming back to continue the Peter-Jinian saga. So that's the thing here. The story ISN'T over. Many things have only just been set in motion, and it was never my intention to have everything be tied up too neatly. But the first act of the story IS over. The plans of the Dreaming Dark have been undone, for now, and what comes next will focus on something else, for all that it will continue to unravel the mysteries of each character. I'm not saying I've taken the right approach; if every hates it, that's extremely valuable information for me. Essentially, I wrote it as I did because *I* love unraveling puzzles, and *I* love ongoing mysteries... but I have the unfair advantage of already knowing exactly where it is going, so I don't get to experience it as a reader. Constructive criticism, on this or any other point, is extremely valuable for me, so keep it coming. I will say that there are a lot of pieces of the puzzle scattered throughout the books. I'd like to think it's possible for people to put together the mystery of the epilogue based on what's already out there... but, of course, since I know the answer, I'm not a perfect judge. Things may very well be too obscure. And it may simply not be the level of mystery people are looking for from this sort of story.
Hellcow 11-17-06, 11:41 AM	Also, I would very much like to know more about the Tooth of the Wanderer. And that's certainly a mystery that will be unraveled. Who gave it to her, what did he tell her, what is its history and purpose. And what are a few synonyms for "Wanderer"? As for Xu, I'd say she had levels in the Scorpion Wraith from SoX. Yeah, I put her together, and she has to be slightly higher level than the others to do all the stuff she does. I think I called her a "war wraith" - based on the scorpion wraith (powers over shadow, jumping action, venomous touch), but there were a few things I shifted away from the base scorpion wraith. And on a side note, what exactly does everyone think Daine's Abberant Mark (or Heir of Khyber mark) do? I'm certainly curious to hear what people think, too.
Hellcow 11-17-06, 11:45 AM	Which reminds me, do you (personally, not binding on anyone else's game) consider the SF to be an eidolon, Keith? As a matter of fact, I do. If you follow the legend, it was created from the union of the spirits of the couatl species, and doctrine holds that noble spirits "join with the Flame after death". So yes, that's exactly what I had in mind. But as you say, that's not binding.
eehamburg 11-17-06, 11:52 AM	Keith: All in all, I agree and accept your comparison to 24. Valid. However, how would you feel if after the end of 24, the villain is never caught, the plot never ends, and it keeps going, but ... the season is over so ... wait until next season? After a while, you would get frustrated. Now, with that being said, if your plan or if what you have in your mind ... is to somewhere down the road whenever time will take you ... is to do more, then having a cliffhanger at the end of a trilogy is not a big deal because it really isn't a trilogy but just another book in the same storyline if you will. Now mind you ... I love your books and your ideas so therefore, I am not trying to be a negative person nor state that I think that your writing sucks ... because well ... it doesn't ... it is actually quite amazingly good ... but you asked for constructive criticism and I thought I would point out some things that could be helpful or useful to you in any way. It is afterall your writing, so it is afterall your decision as to how you proceed and what you want to do ... 1st amendment and all ... and none of this is to say that your novel is bad because again ... really amazingly good. So I hope that you at least think about what I have written with the context and meaning that is intended. Eric And what are a few synonyms for "Wanderer"?Traveler ... it puts in a different twist, but I like it.
Hellcow 11-17-06, 12:22 PM	However, how would you feel if after the end of 24, the villain is never caught, the plot never ends, and it keeps going, but ... the season is over so ... wait until next season? Oh, I'd hate it. But... At the end of The Dreaming Dark, the villain IS caught. Lakashtai is gone. The orb is shattered. What's going on with Daine is very much like what happened to Jack in either of the last two seasons of 24. The villain he was fighting has been defeated, but HE is in a difficult situation and we're not sure where he's going to show up next. Again, I'm not trying to discount the criticism: regardless of my intentions, if things don't come across as I intended them to, that's a failure on my part. It's certainly something I'll bear in mind in the future. But all I'm saying is that The Dreaming Dark IS over. I know what the future holds for the characters, and it will build on what's come before, but the Dreaming Dark won't be the major player in what comes next (which is not to say that Daine won't have to worry about it - but it won't be the heart of the story).
eehamburg 11-17-06, 12:26 PM	Keith, Maybe you are misreading me ... I am not saying that you didn't wrap things up somewhat in your trilogy. I was just stating to the point that there are unresolved issues and if you plan to continue it like Bauer's issues continue in another season, then all is good ... if you don't then, it just gets frustrating about what you don't know. And if you continue it, then story is not over ... the Dreaming Dark sub-story is over, but the overall story of the characters is not .... and I personally look forward to more of the story (the story of the characters that you created). That is all that I meant. Eric
Hellcow 11-17-06, 12:35 PM	Ah, understood. Yes, from the TV metaphor, I've always assumed that there will be a season two, and I've been writing with that in mind. Of course, when is still the question. *I* know I'd like to do more, and I know where the story is heading... but it's true, the book doesn't say "To be continued in March 2008!", and I can certainly understand the frustration if these issues are never resolved. In any case, I do appreciate the feedback and I will bear it in mind in the future!
eehamburg 11-17-06, 12:37 PM	The all is right with the world! :D
DrunkMonk 11-17-06, 04:20 PM	I find the ability to actually address a series of books that I have read and enjoyed directly with the author this closely to be a little weird. The points that other posters have made are better than anything that I could have said, but I would like to add that I am not suffering from any great sense of frustration about the lack of closure. The characters are very well written, but they answered almost all of the questions about the individual backgrounds. Their motivations, personal histories, and individual story arcs were answered well enough to let the story end without addressing where exactly everyone is going to go from here. The world is safe, the good guys deserve to take break, and there is no immediacy to any of the unanswered questions. The story did move very fast, and at some points I felt like the story resembled a dream sequence that was a little too fast for me to keep up with. I was looking forward to seeing more of Eberron through the eyes of its creator and the travel down the fey back roads felt like a missed opportunity to see as much of it as I could straight from the source. This is not a criticism; I just wished to see more of the things that make Eberron different. The Fey court exists in lots of stories any the story could have been in anyone of those worlds and the reader would not have known. As for the future, I think any of the suggestions that you have brought up would be great for Eberron readers. I would personally advise (I feel weird advising an author whose work I enjoy and would not change at all) that you should write about whatever topic you feel is the most interesting to you. I hope that whatever you write, you allow the reader to see, as much of what you think is different about your world than other fantasy settings. DM
Hellcow 11-17-06, 04:36 PM	I find the ability to actually address a series of books that I have read and enjoyed directly with the author this closely to be a little weird. Weird in a bad way? I can certainly back off and let you talk amongst yourselves if you feel that my presence hinders discussion. What can I say - I just like talking about Eberron! ;) I was looking forward to seeing more of Eberron through the eyes of its creator and the travel down the fey back roads felt like a missed opportunity... Fair enough! There are lots of places I'd like to explore as well. And that's the question: if I want to write a story set in, say, Droaam (and I'm not saying that's the plan, mind you), is it better to use the Dreaming Dark crew and just come up with a reason to go there, or to tell the story of an aspiring young gnoll? If I tell a tale of Zilargo, should I play off of Daine's history with Alina, or develop a new gnome protaganist? I'm not sure. I do know where I want to go with the Dreaming Dark crew. I have season two sketched out, and it's a story I want to tell. The only question is if I dive right into it or shift gears for a year. DrunkMonk, I agree that the best work will be that which I'm most inspired to write, and at the moment I'm still answering that question for myself. Nonetheless, I do want to tie up the loose ends of The Dreaming Dark, and if that is what everyone wants to see, that's certainly something I'll take into consideration.
eehamburg 11-17-06, 05:30 PM	Weird in a bad way? I can certainly back off and let you talk amongst yourselves if you feel that my presence hinders discussion. What can I say - I just like talking about Eberron! ;)Don't back off ... your input is invaluable.
DrunkMonk 11-17-06, 05:57 PM	It is definitely not a bad thing that you are on these boards. Your presence here is an incredible resource for players, DMs and just fans of your work. If I came across like I felt hesitant, it is only because I respect the amount of work that you have put into your writing, and I dislike when people who have never done anything as difficult as writing a novel (or three) judging someone who has. You seem to be willing to open yourself up to the kind of criticism that most authors would shy away from. I admire that. Just for the record, I think that your presence actually helps to keep the discussions more focused, because people on these boards rightfully want to avoid cluttering the threads that you post on with junk. I personally enjoy reading about the characters that you have created in the DD crew. If you have created a season two already for them and that is where your interests are taking you, I would as a fan of your work, enjoy reading those stories. However, I would not be telling the whole truth if I did not say that the stories that I am most interested in are about the setting itself. I would love to see the world play out around the characters you have already given us, but I would be just as happy to see the aspiring gnoll, the new gnome protagonist, or a combination of both. You mentioned using a minor character from the DD story as a possible main character (Greykell?). That would be great too. I may be in the minority here but I am very eager to see more, but it does not have to be any particular story. If the whole story just explored Droaam, I would be excited to read it. I don’t know if anything I have said makes a lot of sense, but what I am trying to say is that for me the main character is Eberron itself. I can wait for the DD guys, if there is another story that you want to write. I will be excited to see any story that takes place in the setting. I am particularly interested in you vision, because you are the person that gave birth to the world. DM
Cutlass 11-17-06, 05:59 PM	I read and enjoyed the book. While there were obviously unresolved issues at the end of the third book it was nowhere near as much of a problem as I found the end of the second book to be. However, after all the various things came out about Lei I kept wondering if we weren't looking at clone wars ;) I find the various issues that were raised about the main characters interesting enough to want to see more of them. I would also like to see other parts of Eberron as well.
3nigma 11-17-06, 07:32 PM	I find the ability to actually address a series of books that I have read and enjoyed directly with the author this closely to be a little weird. Ever read (or seen) the book/movie "Misery" by Steven King? It's about a very popular author who gets in a car accident and is stranded, and this woman who takes care of him happens to be "his biggest fan," and has read all his books. I can't figure out how to hide my next sentence as a spoiler, so I'll omit it 0=). Does anyone know where there's a good Book 1 & 2 summary, before I start digging into the third? I'd like a nice recap, even if it's long and thorough. If there are none, I'll just skim the chapters of the books. Anyway, thanks for the help! -3nigma
Euangelion 11-17-06, 09:33 PM	Personally, I found it exactly in the spirit and tone of Eberron that everything was not all wrapped up in a tight, neat, bundle at the end. The issues I wanted to know more about before I read the book were addressed. So while answering those questions just brought up more questions, I can handle it. Another question for Keith if he has time, but I'll spoiler it: While Lei's true nature has become more clear, it seems that she's not warforged. Would a better description of her nature be "hyper-advanced independent humunculus," maybe even with the Living Construct subtype?
Azazyll 11-18-06, 03:34 PM	But as you say, that's not binding. I don't know if this was intentional, considering the Gash'kala orcs' name for the flame, but if it was, it was hilarious
Arcane Guyver 11-18-06, 06:35 PM	Well, I just want to say that I DID enjoy these books immensely - I've just had my fair share of series (mainly TV) that I like just 'end,' because it ends with a cliffhanger, and no follow-up season. Maybe I was a little testy because the previous installments at least had some sort of release date to look forward to. Oh yeah, as far as what future project I'd like to see pursued...how about the follow-up to 'Eye of the Wolf?' Much as I'd like to understand the many questions surrounding every character in the Dreaming Dark trilogy, Greykell is pretty sweet too.
Harker Wade 11-20-06, 12:26 PM	Be careful Keith or you might end up the prisoner of some derranged gamer forcing you to churn out endless Eberron stories. Sorry, but Misery just popped into my head. And, well, gamers can be cuckoo just like Kathy Bates! ;)
Hellcow 11-20-06, 12:42 PM	I've just had my fair share of series (mainly TV) that I like just 'end,' because it ends with a cliffhanger, and no follow-up season. Yes, this is a valid point. I've been perfectly happy with 24; on the other hand, shows like VR5 and Twin Peaks are prime examples of the "series concludes with a infuriating cliffhanger" scenario. I'm certainly planning a season two for the Dreaming Dark crew, and was writing with this in mind throughout the series. To me, the series is an Indiana Jones movie. We uncover and face one terrible threat... but it's not as if the lives of the characters have come to a calm and stable conclusion. The only question for me is whether DD II is the very next thing I'm going to write, or if I take a detour before returning to the DD Krew. If there is going to be a substantial delay - for example, I actually end up writing a new trilogy following entirely different characters - I'd like to at least write one or more short stories (like "Death at Whitehearth") to help bridge the gap and settle a FEW of the cliffhanger issues.
MJMurtha 11-20-06, 05:37 PM	Hi Keith & All, Well, I'm much happier after having read this thread. A lot of it comes under the heading of "if I had know about season two when I started reading book three" I would not have been unhappy when I finished. :D I still think the ending of the Dreaming Dark stuff seemed a little rushed and murky, but we'll see how I feel about it after a reread of the whole trilogy. All three books have lots of nooks and crannies and need to be inspected carefully. I am looking forward to rereading the trilogy after waiting a bit to put some distance between myself and the novels.
Breeder 11-20-06, 10:51 PM	Hellcow, I must know. Is Alina enlarged or is Daine reduced? I found that hilarious. I also throw in my vote for the DD crew story continuation.
Hellcow 11-20-06, 11:01 PM	Hellcow, I must know. Is Alina enlarged or is Daine reduced? I know what *I* think... but what do you think the answer is?
Ellorin 11-21-06, 03:32 AM	I know what *I* think... but what do you think the answer is? Daine reduced. Shows who's in control. Personally, although I'd like to read more about the DD characters in the future, I believe that a completely new story sounds very promising.
Hellcow 11-21-06, 11:38 AM	Daine reduced. Shows who's in control. Exactly. Supported by the fact that Daine doesn't wanted to talk about it.
Jancarius 11-21-06, 05:01 PM	Here's my input on it. First, my vote is strongly for DDII. As I mentioned in the other Eberron novel thread, I consider the DD trilogy and the Dragon Below trilogies to the best two trilogies. Though, in fairness, The Lost Mark is the only other 'set' of Eberron novels written by one author. The War Torn are each written by a different author, so they should essentially be treated as individual books. Regarding the end of Gates of Night: I'd really like some resolution on this. I like Daine, I want to know more about his Aberrant mark (I picked up Dragonmarked today actually just to look at the greater mark powers) and none of the greater marks seem to possess the powers that Daine's does. They're all direct attack powers. So does this mean Daine has a Siberys mark? I actually expected him to manifest a Siberys Mark of the Sentinel at the end of Book 2, not an Aberrant mark, though the aberrant makes sense. Being able to actually talk to the author and give input and receive responses is an invaluable resource and that we all appreciate it.. BTW, please promise no one will ever say "This caused the Mourning." The one thing that made me love Eberron so much more than Dragonlance or FR is that it's a fresh world. All these plots are in motion and there's a lot of room for DMs to say "In my Eberron, this". Myself, I've decided it's House Cannith's fault somehow, but I'm not quite sure how. I suspect the Quori may somehow be involved because of the Glass Plateau but I don't really know how. I don't want all the floating plots in Eberron to be resolved, I'd like the novels to create new plots to deal with (though having them touch on the floating plots is neat).
Hellcow 11-21-06, 05:22 PM	Spoiler-blocked answers to Jancarius's spoilerblocked questions... So does this mean Daine has a Siberys mark? If you check page 117 of GoN, that's the conclusion Lei seems to come to. BTW, please promise no one will ever say "This caused the Mourning." I won't. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else. As for what's said about this in Gates of Night... Lei's father implies that he knows who's behind the Mourning. However, there's a enormous difference between knowing who might be "behind" it, and knowing how it occured. Furthermore, Aleisa says "My husband may have his own ideas as to the cause of this" - so even she is saying that it's a theory, not a fact. So a good question is who Talin THINKS it is - and I'm very curious if anyone has come up with an answer to this question, since I've certainly tried to scatter clues throughout the novels - but that's still a theory. I want the novels to provide inspiration, not limitation. I like Daine... Just curious, have you voted on this thread (http://worldsofdnd.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1509)? So far, Daine hasn't been terribly popular, though obviously people only get one choice.
Bluebrush 11-21-06, 05:32 PM	So a good question is who Talin THINKS it is - and I'm very curious if anyone has come up with an answer to this question, since I've certainly tried to scatter clues throughout the novels - but that's still a theory.Now that's interesting. I might have to flick back through the books for that. I'd guess The Traveller, since it's somewhat implied Lei's Parents were worshippers. Though of course, if not the god walking the earth it may have been someone wearing The Traveller's guise like a priest or outsider.
Jancarius 11-21-06, 05:36 PM	If you check page 117 of GoN, that's the conclusion Lei seems to come to. I didn't really get that from 117. Lei just seems to be afraid of the mark, similar to how she reacted to the House Tarkanen members in Sharn. I won't. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else. As for what's said about this in Gates of Night...How much creative control do you have over Eberron 'canon'? I presume offical control of the property is in the hand of WotC, but how much do they consult with you when their adding or altering something of the canon? Lei's father implies that he knows who's behind the Mourning. However, there's a enormous difference between knowing who might be "behind" it, and knowing how it occured. Furthermore, Aleisa says "My husband may have his own ideas as to the cause of this" - so even she is saying that it's a theory, not a fact. So a good question is who Talin THINKS it is - and I'm very curious if anyone has come up with an answer to this question, since I've certainly tried to scatter clues throughout the novels - but that's still a theory. Yeah, I know he says it's a theory, and that's kind of safe zone DMs can work in. But that means there were definantly things going on that people knew about. So the idea of a magical bomb or something seems pretty unlikely at this point. As I mentioned, House Cannith being at least partially responsible seems incredibly likely. Something that just occured to me as I'm flipping through Dragonmarked... In Shadows of the Last War, the party goes to Whitehearth. However, even from my prospective as a DM, Whitehearth doesn't seem like that great a 'central facility' of Cannith. It's not that big, it's out in the middle of the hills of Cyre (though so is Blacklion), but other than the schema and creation patterns, almost no plans or ntoes of any kind are mentioned in the module. It just seems like it should be a much larger facility or something. Further, are you saying that all the information to gather what he thinks it is can be found in the Dreaming Dark Trilogy? Cause that's gonna set me combing the text. Just curious, have you voted on this thread (http://worldsofdnd.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1509)? So far, Daine hasn't been terribly popular, though obviously people only get one choice.Tried to register to vote, but it said my email address was blocked?
Flame_Drake 11-21-06, 05:53 PM	Tried to register to vote, but it said my email address was blocked? What type of email are you using? Drake
Bluebrush 11-21-06, 06:32 PM	Yeah, I know he says it's a theory, and that's kind of safe zone DMs can work in. But that means there were definantly things going on that people knew about.True, but this has already been alluded to. Note that most of the higher-ups of Phiarlan were "conveniently" out of Cyre when the Mourning struck.However, even from my prospective as a DM, Whitehearth doesn't seem like that great a 'central facility' of Cannith. It's not that big, it's out in the middle of the hills of Cyre (though so is Blacklion), but other than the schema and creation patterns, almost no plans or ntoes of any kind are mentioned in the module. It just seems like it should be a much larger facility or something.Remember, there is one passage for which no keycharm exists. Presumably the bulk of the facility lies through there, along with millions of galifars in gold, a video tape of the formation of Eberron (On Betamax!) and two of the Traveller's fingernail clippings.
The Dreaming Duck 11-21-06, 07:16 PM	Yeah, I know he says it's a theory, and that's kind of safe zone DMs can work in. But that means there were definantly things going on that people knew about. I don't really see it that way. Aleisa says "I don't know who could unleash this level of power." Talin replies "Of course you do. I never expected something of this magnitude, but think of the possibilities. Think of what it will do to the people of Eberron." Break that down. He's not saying that he knows the precise cause of the Mourning. He doesn't know HOW it's being done, and he's specifically saying that he DIDN'T expect this to happen. What he's saying is that now that he sees it happening, he has a good idea of who might have set it in motion. It's like saying "A rakshasa rajah is on the loose? I don't know how they released her, but I imagine it's her prakhutu that did it." And a key point there, looking to the Lords of Dust specifically, is that the people who actually DID release the rajah might never realize that they were doing the work of the Lords of Dust. So Talin is saying that he thinks he knows who set the events in motion - not that he knows exactly what those events were. As I mentioned, House Cannith being at least partially responsible seems incredibly likely. Possibly. But... Talin and Aleisa are conducting rogue operations hidden from the house. They believe that the house will destroy them if they are discovered. If House Cannith IS who Talin is refering to, I'd assume it's a similar rogue operative within the house. Personally, I'm more inclined to go with a force like the Chamber, the Lords of Dust, or even the Dreaming Dark - to say that he's recognizing the force that might manipulate events, but not that he knows how they've accomplished it.
Hellcow 11-21-06, 07:24 PM	I didn't really get that from 117. Whoops, I meant 119. The relevant line is "What's especially unusual is the size of the mark... I've only seen its like once before. In Metrol, one of my cousins was said to be marked by Siberys..." How much creative control do you have over Eberron 'canon'? Absolutely none. Sometimes they consult with me; other times they don't. Remember, there is one passage for which no keycharm exists. Presumably the bulk of the facility lies through there... That was, in fact, exactly the idea. With that said, Whitehearth isn't supposed to be the One True Forgehold; it's a significant one, but one of a number in Cyre alone. But yes, in Shadows of the Last War, you're only seeing a piece of it. Further, are you saying that all the information to gather what he thinks it is can be found in the Dreaming Dark Trilogy? Cause that's gonna set me combing the text. Yes, I believe that it is possible to determine who he is refering to using the information provided in the book... if not conclusively, at least with reasonable certainty. That was certainly my intention.
Jancarius 11-21-06, 10:41 PM	Just curious then, what if the party had a Orien heir in their party and dimension leaped past the sealed door?
Hellcow 11-22-06, 02:02 AM	Just curious then, what if the party had a Orien heir in their party and dimension leaped past the sealed door? It's not simply a sealed door. The issue is that one of the rotating chambers has two sections the PCs never get a key for. So at that point, you're randomly guessing exactly where the hallway is, which is a somewhat risky operation. Assuming that they do make the right guess, they can't bring their friends with them, and without the keycharm, they can't make the rotator turn from the other side either. So the DM will have to decide what lies on the other side, but it's probably MORE dangerous and secured than what's above, and the PC is now facing it on their own. Good luck with that!
rabidclipper 11-22-06, 03:01 AM	Fair enough! There are lots of places I'd like to explore as well. And that's the question: if I want to write a story set in, say, Droaam (and I'm not saying that's the plan, mind you), is it better to use the Dreaming Dark crew and just come up with a reason to go there, or to tell the story of an aspiring young gnoll? If I tell a tale of Zilargo, should I play off of Daine's history with Alina, or develop a new gnome protaganist? I'm not sure. I ssay go for the story of the aspiring gnoll! If ever there was a wrongfully underused and thoroughly misunderstood race, it is the gnolls... and what could be more Eberron than the Gnoll hero rising to glory... I also have a selfish desire to see the character art for a protagonist, as my proudest achievement as a DM is the moral confusion of my players upon facing the gnoll they orphaned when they burned his village... only to find that he grew to become a righteous paladin in the service of the Fury in her aspect as patron of abandoned children....
Ohtar Turinson 11-22-06, 10:27 AM	I liked the series a lot, and as long as Gates of Night isn't intended to be the last we see of the party I'm ok with things. When I initially finished Gates of Night I was rather disappointed by some of the loose plot ends dangling, mostly because I thought that was the end of the characters. Daine's mark was a bit hard for me to figure out, but I assume it wasn't the Siberys mark of the Sentinel. It certainly doesn't seem to fit the bill for normal aberrant mark type stuff either, but that doesn't mean much I suppose. On the Day of Mourning: I'd gathered that Talin believed it was caused by followers of the Traveller within house cannith, meddling in secrets they didn't fully understand. But then there's what Harmattan said to Pierce- "This is the will of our true creator." Presumably, the Traveller was believed responsible for Talin and Aleisa finding the warforged that they used to make their "children." So the question remains-- who was their true creator? The Giants? The Quori? Did the traveller inspire one of those sides (or both of them?) In either event, why would this mean that they should kill the humans? But then... in my game, Merrix believes that the Mourning was caused by Servants of the Traveller meddling, so maybe I'm projecting a bit here.
Jancarius 11-22-06, 12:51 PM	I ssay go for the story of the aspiring gnoll! If ever there was a wrongfully underused and thoroughly misunderstood race, it is the gnolls... and what could be more Eberron than the Gnoll hero rising to glory... I also have a selfish desire to see the character art for a protagonist, as my proudest achievement as a DM is the moral confusion of my players upon facing the gnoll they orphaned when they burned his village... only to find that he grew to become a righteous paladin in the service of the Fury in her aspect as patron of abandoned children.... I would get a kick out of that. However, I must disagree with 'misunderstood' race. Yeah, they are underused a bit, but they're generally pretty vicious killers. BTW, Keith, regarding a Zilargo book, I'd like to see more of that sorceress. You could go either with a book from her perspective now, so we get to see from the schemer's side of things and make it something of an intrigue book, or you could go with her when she was younger. I admit that I despised gnomes as a race pre-Eberron (they are very ambigiously defined in D&D core, most campaigns have them as tinker/engineering types yet they have spell like abilities to speak with animals), but Eberron gnomes who are very intrigue focused are a signifigant improvement on the race.
Belabras 11-27-06, 03:50 AM	My two galifers: What I've really loved about the series so far is all the major players seem to be playing long games: Lakashtai, obviously, with her manipulation of Daine from the get go, clearly had a rather long play in the planning for a very long time (especially considering all the back info she had to have on Lei and the giant's planar weapon), but it doesn't stop there. Thelania seems to have been playing at least as long a game with Lei, Lady Darkheart, and the Sleeper (Kellan?), in addition to who knows how many other angles (and I'd just like to say how much I loved the way she was handled - Lei knows she can't trust the fey, knows Thelania doesn't do anything without benefit to herself, and gets dupped anyway. That said, her promise to Daine that he will never see another agent of hers seemed just a bit too foreboding.) Lei's parents both seemed to be planning a rather extended strategy as well, and one that they appeared to be confident would carry on without them. How horrified Lei must be at the realization that, while her mother loved her, she was also just a pawn of her parents in some struggle she knows nothing about. Given all that, Alina seems like something of a bit player - or at least that's what we get from Daine's point of view. It would (will?) be interesting to see just how much she knew about what was to come, and what she did to influence events (beyond her possible messing with Daine's sword). I will admit, I was frustrated by the end of GoN, but that frustration came from there not being any clear indication that further books are coming. Having seen that they likely are, I'm happy. I'd also like to say how much I like that, while there are obvious tie ins to the crunch of the Eberron world, nothing is ever completed spelled out or locked into place. It helps make the characters people instead of just stat blocks. Random thoughts and hopes - Daine's mark, while it seems to be quite large, also seems to be pretty clearly aberrant. I'm going to venture, because no one else has, that rather than being a destructive power the mark instead bound Lakashtai's spirit to Daine and Jode's twin soul somehow. Both because that is more interesting story wise, and because as we understand it, it would take something of Wish level power to truely destroy a Quori. Perhaps after Daine and Jode make their way out of Dal Quor Daine will have some psionic abilities of his own :D I rather liked Xu'sasar, but I really wish we'd gotten to see her exchange with the 'Wanderer' when he gave her the Tooth. That said, I really like the idea that the Traveller is nudging events like that - it seems so fitting that such a being would casually introduce a wild factor into the plans of so many other powerful beings. I also liked that we got to see some of what Dal Quor was like before the last turning of the age. Well, at least, what Shira wanted Pierce to believe about it, but nice to have a perspective nonetheless. All that information about warforged and the ancient Quori and still no answer to where the souls of these new warforged are coming from... I've also really liked how Pierce seemed to be developing from the stolid and rather flat character he was in the first book to the complex being he is now. If/when we get more on the Dreaming Dark gang I'd love to see him develop further. I wasn't sure what to think of the 'Wizard of Oz' moment in Thelanis where Thelania shows Pierce and Lei what powers were inside them this whole time. Lei's realization had been building for some time, but it seemed like Pierce's was half by plan, half a matter of expediency. Nice that he had some toys of his own considering what Indigo and Harmattan seem to have been made with though. I loved, loved, loved the handling of Thelanis. Really made the place more than just a retread of Midsummer Night's Dream and had a real Joseph Campbell feel to it. The Crooked Tree, the Woodsman, and especially Ko'molaq were just awesome. That's just all the stuff off the top of my head. I'm really looking forward to any new stuff from Hellcow, but especially further DD crew adventures. Thanks so much to Hellcow for taking the time to write these stories, I just hope we can trick you into continuing to do it.:cool:
Hellcow 11-27-06, 11:51 AM	Thanks for the feedback. A few notes on the spoiler'd observations... I rather liked Xu'sasar, but I really wish we'd gotten to see her exchange with the 'Wanderer' when he gave her the Tooth. You can certainly expect to get more insights into Xu'sasar's past - including this scene - in the future. I wasn't sure what to think of the 'Wizard of Oz' moment in Thelanis where Thelania shows Pierce and Lei what powers were inside them this whole time. Lei's realization had been building for some time, but it seemed like Pierce's was half by plan, half a matter of expediency. Fair enough. Pierce's little surprise was actually something I've had planned from the start - if you look at the cover of City of Towers you'll see that he's got that integral quiver in the image - but I fully acknowledge that this is not really developed throughout the story and does thus have the sense of popping out of nowhere, as opposed to Lei, where there had been lots and lots of hints leading up the revelation. So, my bad there. I just hope we can trick you into continuing to do it.:cool: I'm torn, because there is one other story (the mysterious Door Number Three) that I would like to explore. But it does seem like public opinion leans more towards more DD, and hey, I have only myself to blame for writing the epilogue. I want to do both stories eventually, so really it's just a question of order. BTW, Keith, regarding a Zilargo book, I'd like to see more of that sorceress. If you mean Alina, I would like to do more with her. She almost made a cameo in "Principles of Fire", but it didn't quite fit.
goblin_pride 11-27-06, 12:05 PM	as my proudest achievement as a DM is the moral confusion of my players upon facing the gnoll they orphaned when they burned his village... only to find that he grew to become a righteous paladin in the service of the Fury in her aspect as patron of abandoned children.... That's just far too good an idea not to steal and plant neatly in every Eberron campaign.
Azazyll 11-27-06, 02:33 PM	It's not simply a sealed door. The issue is that one of the rotating chambers has two sections the PCs never get a key for. So at that point, you're randomly guessing exactly where the hallway is, which is a somewhat risky operation. Assuming that they do make the right guess, they can't bring their friends with them, and without the keycharm, they can't make the rotator turn from the other side either. So the DM will have to decide what lies on the other side, but it's probably MORE dangerous and secured than what's above, and the PC is now facing it on their own. Good luck with that! On this note, I just had an amazing thought: Expedition to Whitehearth Keith should right it. It is, after all, pretty much the oldest adventure location in the Eberron setting that fits the dungeon format. I'd buy it. If Keith wrote it.
SkyOdin 11-27-06, 05:02 PM	I loved the entire Dreaming Dark trilogy. I too was put off a bit by the ending of The Gates of Night, but if more novels are going to follow, I will accept it. My only real problem with the novel is that there is no conclusion to the battle against Harmatten. Harmatten the immortal warforged is one of the coolest villains I have ever seen in the Eberron setting. In my opinion, he overshadowed Lakashtai as a villain. I would be very disapointed if we never get to see the conclusion to the fight against him. One of my favorite aspects of the Dreaming Dark trilogy is that it has given me all kinds of new inspiration on how to use warforged and the quori as enemies in an Eberron campaign. Your villains are top notch.
ORC_Paradox 11-28-06, 01:25 AM	Fantastic book! (*So far. I picked up the book and had to get to bed. I figured I'd read one page or two and ended up chewing up 60. Oops.)
Mind Flayer Monk 11-28-06, 02:41 AM	I would like to see something different. Tolar and Zaehr would be fine, door number 3 would be fine. Dreaming Dark was good. I'm of the group that didn't like the ending. I'm not a cliffhanger fan, or open ended challenge your audience ending kind of person (its not Ingmar Bergman here). Well I would like to say I would like to see something new and unexpected please.
rabidclipper 11-28-06, 04:41 AM	That's just far too good an idea not to steal and plant neatly in every Eberron campaign. Consider yoinking rights granted, GP...
Barachiel 11-29-06, 01:07 AM	Yeah that offiically goes down as a Farscape ending. The main ending was bad enough, but I could have lived with that. It was dramatic. But that epilogue was almost enough to make me rip the last two pages from the book. I hope we dont' have to to wait too long for this equivalent of the The Peacekeeper Wars. All in all though, an excellent series. I loved the characters guessed some plot twists and completely missed others. Xu'sassa was great and I hope we get to see more of her, as well as get a better explanation of what the source of Lei's power is. There wasn't a bad character in this series, honestly, which is part of what made the ending so mindnumbingly frustrating. A small recommendation: I recommend an ending style closer to Veronica Mars, where the main plot is resolved and the majority of the characters get, if not a happily ever after, but at least a sense that all is right with their part of the world, while leaving the dangling plot threads as a faint aftertaste and an encouragement to check back later. Every season has a sense of completion and satisfaction though. Gates of Night had completion, but no satisfaction.
mhacdebhandia 11-30-06, 11:07 PM	I'll be a dissenting voice: I was absolutely delighted with the ambiguity of both the ending and the epilogue. I'm excited to see what comes next for these characters, but to be honest I'd also love to see the "Door Number 3" option too. Perhaps we could have a happy medium, Keith - your next novel project could be "Door Number 3" but you could tide fans of the Dreaming Dark trilogy over with some of those bridging short stories you mentioned? I like your "Shadows of Stormreach" crew, as well, but I think it would be really interesting if you could stick to writing short stories or serialised fiction about them, too - like the classic pulp serials, you know? I'm interested in seeing your version of Khorvaire through all sorts of different eyes - gnolls, orcs, kobolds. Whatever you got, I'll take.
Cutlass 12-01-06, 02:05 AM	[QUOTE=Belabras;10748224]My two galifers: Thelania seems to have been playing at least as long a game with Lei, Lady Darkheart, and the Sleeper (Kellan?), in addition to who knows how many other angles (and I'd just like to say how much I loved the way she was handled - Lei knows she can't trust the fey, knows Thelania doesn't do anything without benefit to herself, and gets dupped anyway. That said, her promise to Daine that he will never see another agent of hers seemed just a bit too foreboding.) Hold the phone! I don't have the book right in front of me at the moment, but IIRC Thelania told Daine he would never see HER again. I don't recall her saying word one about her agents in that. So, while Thelania might be bound to her word that Daine would never see her again, she is free to meddle with agents as much as she likes. Or to strike Daine blind before she meets him again. :D
Belabras 12-01-06, 03:41 AM	Hold the phone! I don't have the book right in front of me at the moment, but IIRC Thelania told Daine he would never see HER again. I don't recall her saying word one about her agents in that. So, while Thelania might be bound to her word that Daine would never see her again, she is free to meddle with agents as much as she likes. Or to strike Daine blind before she meets him again. :D Exact quote: Daine "...I don't want to see one of your eyes or your agents again!" Thelania "I give you my word, Daine. you never shall." on page 248 I wouldn't make something like that up :D
Sereno 12-01-06, 09:00 AM	I'll be a dissenting voice: I was absolutely delighted with the ambiguity of both the ending and the epilogue. I'll join you. I loved it! The very ambiguity of the ending screams EBERRON from the top of Sharn's tallest tower!! Great work, Keith! Also, I'd like to see more of Daine, Lei, Pierce and Jode.... BTW, is Jode still a spirit existing only in Dal Quor?
Jancarius 12-01-06, 11:14 AM	I don't think so, I think he's a spirit existing in Daine's mind, not just in Dal Quor. He just pops along to Dal Quor with Daine when Daine dreams.
Sereno 12-01-06, 11:53 AM	I don't think so, I think he's a spirit existing in Daine's mind, not just in Dal Quor. He just pops along to Dal Quor with Daine when Daine dreams. Hmmm, I got the impression that he'd always been in Dal Quor and that's why Daine was seeing/hearing him when he was dreaming....
mhacdebhandia 12-01-06, 03:12 PM	When Daine, Lei, and Pierce first show up in the dream of Alina's mansion, Jode talks about how he's been exploring Dal Quor as far as he can and talking to the natives - that's how he knows about the draconic eidolon.
Jancarius 12-01-06, 04:28 PM	That's a good point. I dunno, I don't think he's an Outsider (Native, Dal Quor) or anything though now is more what I was saying.
Cutlass 12-01-06, 05:49 PM	Belabras: There is both an extent to which my memory on this is slightly off, as well as an extent to which we're arguing over something like the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. :) I missed the reference to agents because Daine and company were accompanied by an agent of Thelanis for some time after they left her presence. So, when does the period of time start during which Daine will never see either Thelanis or any of her agents? Immediately after they left her presence? That was my initial thought and would have made sense if the agreement had been that Daine would never see Thelanis again but potentially could see her agents. Obviously though I misremembered that passage from the book. When the mission they were about to undertake was completed? When, exactly, did that happen? What was it that happened at the end of the book? There are a couple of bizarre things hanging that could be interpreted differently. And my comments about Daine being struck blind aside, there are a number of ways Thelanis could keep her word in that regard that Daine would not like at all.
Belabras 12-01-06, 11:54 PM	Belabras: There is both an extent to which my memory on this is slightly off, as well as an extent to which we're arguing over something like the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. :) I missed the reference to agents because Daine and company were accompanied by an agent of Thelanis for some time after they left her presence. So, when does the period of time start during which Daine will never see either Thelanis or any of her agents? Immediately after they left her presence? That was my initial thought and would have made sense if the agreement had been that Daine would never see Thelanis again but potentially could see her agents. Obviously though I misremembered that passage from the book. When the mission they were about to undertake was completed? When, exactly, did that happen? What was it that happened at the end of the book? There are a couple of bizarre things hanging that could be interpreted differently. And my comments about Daine being struck blind aside, there are a number of ways Thelanis could keep her word in that regard that Daine would not like at all. I can totally agree on that second part. I can't even imagine the number of ways Thelania can squirm out of that promise. Seemed pretty ominous at the time though.
mhacdebhandia 12-02-06, 05:04 PM	I seem to recall that the promise was intended to take effect after Daine and his companions had thwarted Lakashtai's plans - in which case, Daine's being stranded in Dal Quor without a body to return to would certainly help Thelania keep her promise.
ChimericalWolf 12-03-06, 03:33 AM	While I would have no problems with DDII Guess who's Warforged Now?, were I to vote, I'd go for door #3. Give the crew some time to stew, maybe, and show us what else you have. That said, I'd have to say that in this last book, Xu was my favorite character, once she got going. An awesome combination of self-confident huntress and lonely last scion of her tribe.
Siberys 12-03-06, 04:12 AM	I just finished GoN, and am perplexed. Is Daine on Dal Quor, or Back Home? Is Kin controlling Daine's body, as implied by the scabbard/summoning circle deal? In short, What in Dolurrh is going on at the end??? too many loose threads... AHHH!! And, while it didn't strike quite as hard as the warp-drive glossary from #2, it still seems like it ended too early. Personally, while I'd love to see more of your characters, O dairy-genetive agricultural creature of the lower domains, I love the DD gang too much. I WANT MORE!!!! Seriously, KB. You write too well for your own good;) cheers, Siberys P.S. - Each time I got one of the DD books, I stayed up till I finished it the morning after I got it. It's 4:15 in the morning where I am right now. That's 4 hours and 15 minutes more than I usually stay up!
Quachil_Utaus 12-03-06, 05:39 AM	Hi Everyone, I definately vote for DDII. DDI is really inspiring - brilliant characters and plots. My own campaign revolves around the destruction of Cyre and the DD as a whole. My comments on GoN: - I loved Xu's primitive, hunter-like perspective. - Thanks for the impressions on Thelania and Dal Quor. DDII: - I'd like to read more about the Kalashtar. Someone from the line of Shana could challenge the characters, because they killed her sister Tashana. "Yes, you have been to Dal Quor to make amends? Right." - I agree with everyone who wants more of Jode Warforged issue: Shira indicated that the quori of the former age created warforged-like beings in order to flee their home plane. House Cannith adopted these creation patterns. But they had a problem... the warforged were without soul and they could hardly bind spirits from Dal Quor to them. "In my Eberron" :) spirits of dying creatures travel to Dal Quor and stay there for some time (in a dreamlike state) before they go to Dolurrh and start passing away. So, House Cannith somehow caught the spirits on their way from Dal Quor to Dolurrh and bound them into the warforged vessel (war is really paying). Just apply some mind wiping effect and you have your soldier (of course you could also leave the mind wiping out, right Talin? Talking about escaping death). One possible way for me to explain warforged wizards and the like. Should I ever DM a warforged PC they're in for some memories of their "past". My two copper crowns...
Bluebrush 12-03-06, 10:49 AM	(possible spoilers...sorry don't know how to make those nice "hide buttons):Put either SPOILER or SBLOCK inside square brackets at the start of the spoiler and put /SPOILER or /SBLOCK at the end, also in square brackets. SPOILER will cover the text in black so you have to highlight to see it, SBLOCK produces one of those click-to-open boxes.
Quachil_Utaus 12-03-06, 01:02 PM	Put either SPOILER or SBLOCK inside square brackets at the start of the spoiler and put /SPOILER or /SBLOCK at the end, also in square brackets. SPOILER will cover the text in black so you have to highlight to see it, SBLOCK produces one of those click-to-open boxes. My thanks, Bluebrush!
Hellcow 12-03-06, 08:28 PM	Thanks to everyone who's commented on the book so far. I certainly appreciate feedback and criticism, and will take it to heart as I move forward with my next project!
maollelujah 12-04-06, 09:18 AM	Here is my criticism of the third book (series): 1. The fonts have to go. I just hate them. (now for the real criticism...) 2. At times the dialog seemed a little blase. I can't give any specifics, but at times I found myself drifting when reading conversations between characters, but especially Daine and Lei. 3. The multi-point of view was a nice touch and I enjoyed seeing the varied points of view, but at times I felt like I was re-reading the same passage over again. I think it also made for a rushed feeling, as the rehashing cut down on space available to develop the story. 4. At times The action sequences were a little confusing, and I had to reread them to get a good picture of what happened. On the plus side: 1. I loved the vision of Eberron that you've developed through the books. It made for a very interesting read. I thought the plot was well done. 2. I also thought that the being able to view Eberron though the eyes of different characters was interesting. 3. I really like how you handled Xu. She really made it interesting for me, as her view/expectations of the world were so different from the other three. 4. I thought overall the handling of the characters was pretty good. At first I didn't like Daine, but then I realized his fussy I want to be in charge attitude was what he was all about. The only character I didn't have a good feel for was Lei, who I think was slightly under-developed. Maybe it was the fact that her mannerisms were similar to Daine's gave me this impression. I hope I don't get cruxified for posting this. :)
Hellcow 12-04-06, 11:04 AM	I hope I don't get cruxified for posting this. :) Of course not! I want to hear criticism - it's the only way I'll improve as a writer. I certainly think the complaint about "re-reading the same passage over and over again" is valid, and it is my concern with dealing with, essentially, multiple protaganists. If I do go with Door #3, it will have fewer focus characters. At the same time, I like all of the DD characters... but I recognize I may have gone overboard with the "replay" scenes.
Sereno 12-04-06, 01:54 PM	3. The multi-point of view was a nice touch and I enjoyed seeing the varied points of view, but at times I felt like I was re-reading the same passage over again. I think it also made for a rushed feeling, as the rehashing cut down on space available to develop the story. I really liked how he used this technique in the Tower of Teeth ... but there were other areas in the novel where the different views were rather similar. However, I always like Keith's approach to how Pierce sees the world ... insightful for RPing WF. Keith, perhaps you could do a bit where each characters POV picks up just after the previous ... not "replaying" the same scene but advancing the scene (especially a combat) taking "turns" through multiple character POVs ... it would kind of read like a DnD combat, but I think would be cool.
Arryn 12-04-06, 02:07 PM	I agree that the multiple viewpoints are one of the stronger elements of your writing Keith. I am especially impressed with how you handle Pierce and Xu. A lot of other writers just treat different races as "humans who look different", but I think you do a great job of presenting a truly alien mindset when using thier voices. It's a refreshing change. I do also agree that showing multiple perspectives of the same action might not be the best way to go... it can get a little dry. Other than that, though I have very few criticisms. Especially considering this is your first stab at writing a trilogy, I thought you did a great job. I, of course, want to find out what happens to the DD characters... but I'll pretty much read whatever you write next, so go with the story you want to tell the most.
Edymnion 12-04-06, 06:58 PM	The question is whether that's what people would like to see next.My vote goes for more Dreaming Dark, not because I can't stand a cliffhanger, but because I want you to keep the "flow" going. If you go off to do something else for a while, I fear you may lose a bit of your touch on just how a character should be. I know for a fact that my "signature" Eberron character, Crucible, keeps getting personality tweaks and sometimes outright overhauls as I go on, and I'd hate to see the DD characters suddenly start acting differantly for no apparent reason *cough*harrypotter*cough*orderofphoenix* cough*. Good book, but kind of unsatisfying.Actually, I really liked the big gaping plot hole at the end. It reminded me a lot of the old Nightmare on Elm Street movies where, after winning the battle and getting out safely, the kids end up screaming as Freddy pops out of nowhere for round 2.Just out of curiosity, would you have been happier if you hadn't read the epilogue? (I'm thinking I could race out and put "Don't read the epilogue!" stickers on copies at local stores!)No, I like that everything doesn't get wrapped up in a neat little package. Sure, I wasn't happy at first, but after reflecting on it, I think its better this way. Sort of like how everybody wanted to see V's face in V for Vendetta, but it was better that they never showed him taking his mask off, because who he was under it didn't really matter. And I am curious to hear people's reactions to Xu, so thanks for the feedback.To quote Futurama, "We find the defendant spunky yet vulnrable!" Actually, the vibe I get from Xu the most is actually the same vibe I get from Aviendha in the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. I'm rather hoping we end up with a bit of a love triangle with Xu the way Jordan had a love square with Aviendha. Obviously Lei and Daine are the two lovebirds, but I'd love to see some undercurrents between Xu and Daine come up. The whole "We can't, I can't do this to Lei" type thing. Obvious that if it came down to one or the other, that he would pick Lei, but just enough to keep some romantic tension in the air now that Lei and Daine have straightened things out. Exactly. Supported by the fact that Daine doesn't wanted to talk about it.Heh, of course there's always the answer that you would expect to see on Fox, that Daine is erm... well... how to say this kindly... "not in need of magical reduction"... yeah, you know where I'm going, and thats why he doesn't want to talk about it. :P Lei's father implies that he knows who's behind the Mourning. However, there's a enormous difference between knowing who might be "behind" it, and knowing how it occured. Furthermore, Aleisa says "My husband may have his own ideas as to the cause of this" - so even she is saying that it's a theory, not a fact. So a good question is who Talin THINKS it is - and I'm very curious if anyone has come up with an answer to this question, since I've certainly tried to scatter clues throughout the novels - but that's still a theory.You know, I have no idea who he might think it was. But then again, I was never one to pick a story apart like that, I just sort of go with the flow. Just curious, have you voted on this thread (http://worldsofdnd.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1509)? So far, Daine hasn't been terribly popular, though obviously people only get one choice.Well, the thing is that while Daine is a fun character, he's the most normal in the bunch. We know how a human fighter works. Pierce and Lei are more interesting characters because they help give insight into how the new stuff works. I mean, my love of the Artificer class is because of Lei takes such a seemingly minor and unimportant ability as a spell storing infusion, and then turns it into the defining feature of the class.I've also really liked how Pierce seemed to be developing from the stolid and rather flat character he was in the first book to the complex being he is now. If/when we get more on the Dreaming Dark gang I'd love to see him develop further.Yeah, Pierce is following a very Teal'c-ish line of character development (Teal'c being one of the main Stargate SG1 characters). The big stoic alien warrior that slowly opens up as he begins to understand his new environment.I wasn't sure what to think of the 'Wizard of Oz' moment in Thelanis where Thelania shows Pierce and Lei what powers were inside them this whole time. Lei's realization had been building for some time, but it seemed like Pierce's was half by plan, half a matter of expediency. Nice that he had some toys of his own considering what Indigo and Harmattan seem to have been made with though.I think that was the big clue here. We already saw that the others had special powers, including the hints with Lei, and that was the buildup for Pierce also having something special. Its not so much that it came out of nowhere, but that it was indirect. We saw all of his brothers with special powers, we find out that Lei is his sister, we are left with this gaping hole of "Wait, if they were all special made, what is so special about Pierce?" Buildup by omission if you will. I also liked the way it had a certain mechanical feel to it. As in, when that was all happening I was thinking in the back of my head "Huh, they just went through a lot of stuff, had a chance for some rest, and Pierce gets a new ability. He must have leveled up and gotten a new feat or something." 3. The multi-point of view was a nice touch and I enjoyed seeing the varied points of view, but at times I felt like I was re-reading the same passage over again. I think it also made for a rushed feeling, as the rehashing cut down on space available to develop the story.Actually, this was one thing I really liked. What I would like to see in the future is, as you said, a bit more differance in details between the viewpoints. Give a bit more stilted and fractured view of whats going on, and leave it up to the readers to piece the differant viewpoints together into a complete view of the situation.At the same time, I like all of the DD characters... but I recognize I may have gone overboard with the "replay" scenes.After reading all the way through, I can see what you were going for though. It was a buildup of the method to get us used to it before the ending where the multiple viewpoints were essential to setting up that final attack. Although, frankly, I think you were a bit obvious with it. Having Pierce just find Daine dead was an instant "Okay, something funny is going on here, he wouldn't have just killed everybody off, this has to be an illusion of some kind". And while I figured out that you were having them attack each other pretty quick, I can't hold that one against you since the whole "split the party up and use illusion to make them fight each other" thing is an age old DM trick One thing I noticed though was that the description of the Creation Forge was rather differant than the artwork in the ECS. Did the artwork not live up to the way you originally pictured it, or was there something intentionally differant in the way this one looked? And was I the only one that noticed that Lei's father seemed to make a UMD check to use a battlefist? After Keith specifically said on the boards that he didn't see that as being something that was possible? Perhaps Lei isn't the only half-human half-warforged out there! Especially since we see her old man later in his life, and he seems to have two normal hands again. One other thing thats been bugging me, Lei's name. How is it supposed to be pronounced? Is it "Lee", "Lii", "Lay", "Lii-uh", "Lay-uh", "Lee-uh", or some other pronunciation? I've been calling her "Lii" in my head. And for the record, yeah, we better get some more books, or we'll have to form the "Misery Squad". We'll get our answers one way or the other! :D
Siberys 12-04-06, 07:20 PM	I pronounce it lee-aye... Why all the seemingly-normal-but-confusing-pronunciation names, KB? First Cyre (seer-ee), then Lei, what next? Will Darguun be pronounced "Darg-wun", or the Dreaming Dark "thee Drumming Dirk"? :D In all seriousness, I love all these names. cheers, Siberys
Hellcow 12-04-06, 07:37 PM	Thanks, Edymnion - very useful response! One other thing thats been bugging me, Lei's name. How is it supposed to be pronounced? Is it "Lee", "Lii", "Lay", "Lii-uh", "Lay-uh", "Lee-uh", or some other pronunciation? I usually say "Lee". Pierce, on the other hand, is pronounced "PI-er-KEY." Or not. My vote goes for more Dreaming Dark, not because I can't stand a cliffhanger, but because I want you to keep the "flow" going. This does make sense. While there's lots of things I'd like to explore, I do think it would be easy to lose the thread if I take a few years off. To quote Futurama, "We find the defendant spunky yet vulnrable!" This is certainly the funniest thing I've heard all day! One thing I noticed though was that the description of the Creation Forge was rather differant than the artwork in the ECS. Did the artwork not live up to the way you originally pictured it, or was there something intentionally differant in the way this one looked? It is supposed to look unusual. However, it's not extremely far from the base. If you look on page 22 of the ECS, there is a central pillar which is, IMO, not unlike "the trunk of a tree... studded with glowing stumps... the base of this pillar was hidden in a radiant pool. Fibrous tendrils rose from this pool and spread out across the floor..." Not a perfect match (and Lei comments on this) and red where the image is white, but still similar in design.
Edymnion 12-04-06, 11:29 PM	As for Zilargo:You set up a way to get some good backstory on Zilargo at the end of GoN. With Daine and Jode off in Dal Quor together, its the perfect time to finally have Jode fill us in on his past. Perhaps the reason he doesn't talk about his origins is that something terrible happened to him in Zilargo that made him strike out as an adventurer. Perhaps handle it in a similar fashion as Keldan Ridge, with bits and pieces coming out until he finally has to tell the entire tale. We do have hints that he knows how backstabbing gnomes can be, as he did warn Daine about it back in CoT when they entered the gnome district to visit Alina. Maybe he ran a house of healing in Zilargo for his House, until some horrible series of manipulations and betrayals forced him to leave the house or be excoriated. Perhaps they still have something on him that he would rather stay secret, like a family member or other loved one being threatened if he ever tries to rejoin his house. Maybe being in Dal Quor, the region starts to shape itself like Zilargo as Jode begins to worry about what will happen to said loved one (it starts to become his nightmare), and thats what leads Daine to asking whats going on.As for Daine's abberant mark:I agree it wasn't one in the books. But it was an attack of some kind. The fire stuff was the dragonfire, what the mark did was whip tenticals out into her, and then drag her into Daine. Perhaps she wasn't destroyed, but mearly sealed away inside Daine. Couldn't have made him an Elan, as his mark wouldn't work then, but maybe his mark's power is Trap the Soul, or some kind of binding power.
Belabras 12-05-06, 12:56 AM	As for Daine's abberant mark:I agree it wasn't one in the books. But it was an attack of some kind. The fire stuff was the dragonfire, what the mark did was whip tenticals out into her, and then drag her into Daine. Perhaps she wasn't destroyed, but mearly sealed away inside Daine. Couldn't have made him an Elan, as his mark wouldn't work then, but maybe his mark's power is Trap the Soul, or some kind of binding power. That's what I thought as well. Could even lead to something like Quori Mindhunter
Quachil_Utaus 12-05-06, 12:26 PM	I agree, that the different points of view were sometimes too much. I.e. when Lei splashed into the "snake's pool" I wished her perspective would have started as she was, say, already on the snake. That way, the reader would know where the story is and a rather eventless paragraph would not be repeated. Tough I understand these different POVs were required for the ending with Lakastai. I certainly figured that something was askew in the tower, but for a time I really thought that Indigo somehow managed to reach Dal Quor. Well, the thing is that while Daine is a fun character, he's the most normal in the bunch. We know how a human fighter works. Pierce and Lei are more interesting characters because they help give insight into how the new stuff works. I mean, my love of the Artificer class is because of Lei takes such a seemingly minor and unimportant ability as a spell storing infusion, and then turns it into the defining feature of the class. I really liked Daine with no name and his internal struggles about his past - while trying to stay normal around his gifted companions. Getting Xu in the mix of Daine's feelings should provide interessting. One question, Hellcow: Daine couldn't really discern differences in appearance between Tashana and Lakashtai. Do (Quori possessed) Inspired and Kalashtar differ so slightly in the eyes of people of Khorvaire? Certainly a Kalashtar could identify an Inspired and thus she would not be fooled?
Hellcow 12-05-06, 01:16 PM	One question, Hellcow: Daine couldn't really discern differences in appearance between Tashana and Lakashtai. Do (Quori possessed) Inspired and Kalashtar differ so slightly in the eyes of people of Khorvaire? The vast majority of people of Khorvaire have never met an Inspired, and not many have met kalashtar, who are after all insular by nature; Daine had never met a kalashtar prior to City of Towers. Both have many similar traits - notably that inhuman perfection - though they certainly aren't identical to someone deeply familiar with both races. However, the key thing to bear in mind is Disguise. It's a -2 penalty to disguise yourself as a member of another race. Both kalasthar and the Chosen (AKA empty vessels) take no penalty when disguising themselves as humans, because of the similarity in appearance between the two races; in my campaign, I take this a step farther and just as both races can disguise themselves as human with no penalty, kalashtar take no penalty to disguise themselves as Chosen, and vice versa. So, to fully answer your question: Lakashtai was trained as an infiltrator. As such, she had decent Disguise and Bluff skills, and was using these to impersonate a kalashtar. So she would be able to fool someone who had met kalashtar before, unless they overcame the Disguise check. I would give a kalashtar a bonus to spot an Inspired impersonating a kalashtar of the same spiritual lineage - so, Lanhareth would get a considerable bonus to see through the disguise of "Kelhareth" - but even then, a true master of disguise should have a chance to fool the kalashtar. An Inspired impersonator, in all liklihood, is actually trained in psychic techniques to fool kalashtar (not something requiring specific game rules, but simply a background explanation of how it is possible).
Quachil_Utaus 12-05-06, 05:24 PM	The vast majority of people of Khorvaire have never met an Inspired, and not many have met kalashtar, who are after all insular by nature; Daine had never met a kalashtar prior to City of Towers. Both have many similar traits - notably that inhuman perfection - though they certainly aren't identical to someone deeply familiar with both races. However, the key thing to bear in mind is Disguise. It's a -2 penalty to disguise yourself as a member of another race. Both kalasthar and the Chosen (AKA empty vessels) take no penalty when disguising themselves as humans, because of the similarity in appearance between the two races; in my campaign, I take this a step farther and just as both races can disguise themselves as human with no penalty, kalashtar take no penalty to disguise themselves as Chosen, and vice versa. I haven't looked at it that way, I admit. The techniques implied by disguise should provide means for both sides to conceal their true identity. You just have to write more about the Kalashtar in DD II, the descriptions made me want to follow Lakashtai, yet somehow I found the will to ask myself, "Wait, what am I doing? She's so crepy." And I do think Kalashtar have the potential to develop similar "convincing" abilities. So, to fully answer your question: Lakashtai was trained as an infiltrator. As such, she had decent Disguise and Bluff skills, and was using these to impersonate a kalashtar. So she would be able to fool someone who had met kalashtar before, unless they overcame the Disguise check. In addtion Lakashtai created illusions in Daine's mind effecting the way he perceived real Kalashtar, right? I'm thinking of the scene at the docks of Sharn in Shattered Land, where the group + Lakashtai is attacked by Tashana. If I remember correctly, Tashana's physical form was overshadowed by a Quori-like image (pincers and all). I would give a kalashtar a bonus to spot an Inspired impersonating a kalashtar of the same spiritual lineage - so, Lanhareth would get a considerable bonus to see through the disguise of "Kelhareth" - but even then, a true master of disguise should have a chance to fool the kalashtar. An Inspired impersonator, in all liklihood, is actually trained in psychic techniques to fool kalashtar (not something requiring specific game rules, but simply a background explanation of how it is possible). Background explanations are almost always more important than game rules, because game rules usually don't explain the why. Disregarding psychic techniques really made it difficult to explain success in disguising. I think my Kalashtar player is going to hate you. He already suspects the Dreaming Dark behind every half-spoken thought of evilness. Now, he can't even be too sure about his own people (being adventrous and constantly meeting "new faces").
Edymnion 12-05-06, 05:31 PM	(being adventrous and constantly meeting "new faces").Or maybe the same faces, you never know with Changelings. ;)
Hellcow 12-05-06, 05:57 PM	Relating to The Shattered Land... The descriptions made me want to follow Lakashtai... And I do think Kalashtar have the potential to develop similar "convincing" abilities. While I didn't want to be too obvious with it, it was always my intention to imply that Lakashtai uses psychic manipulation in many of her encounters with people. There's a lot of situations where people find themselves doing apparently silly things when she asks them to. In part, that's because she's charming and charismatic... but it's also because she's using her Jedi mind tricks. In addtion Lakashtai created illusions in Daine's mind effecting the way he perceived real Kalashtar, right? I'm thinking of the scene at the docks of Sharn in Shattered Land, where the group + Lakashtai is attacked by Tashana. If I remember correctly, Tashana's physical form was overshadowed by a Quori-like image (pincers and all). Not at all. Tashana is using a variation of the Quori Nightmare PrC (from Races of Eberron, I believe), which is available to both kalashtar and Inspired. She even tries the phantasmal killer power on Daine, with the vision of Lei. When manipulating Daine's dreams, Lakashtai certainly highlights this aspect of Tashana's abilities, prepping him to be as suspicious of Tashana as possible. But the nightmare shroud is a power any kalashtar could develop, because every kalashtar has a bond to a nightmarish quori spirit!
Edymnion 12-05-06, 07:14 PM	Oh, one other thing that rather struck me with GoN, and to some degree the rest of the series, is that the party seems to have an awful lot of "artifact" type items. Lei's armor was one of them until we found out she was imbuing herself, not the vest, the darkwood staff is one of them, Xu's tooth is one, etc. Pierce's flail could simply be a +X Flaming Flail, while Daine's sword is sort of iffy at the moment (as I can't place anything that would respond the way his sword does). If we do get DD2 in the near future, is there a chance we could take some of these things away, or at least not hand out any more super powerful items? They're getting close to recommended character wealth thanks to the Queen of Dusk, and one of the fun parts of the group was the fact that, despite their level, they were dirt poor all the time.
Hellcow 12-05-06, 07:42 PM	If we do get DD2 in the near future, is there a chance we could take some of these things away, or at least not hand out any more super powerful items? Well, I already took away Shira, didn't I? What I will say is that I don't hand these items out casually. So far you are correct, each character has or has had an item that could be considered a major artifact or weapon of legacy. However, each of these items has a purpose and a role to play in the story (or, in the case of some of these items, stories still to come). I'd only add in additional items with this level of power if they were in my mind required by the story. So I don't plan to throw in lots more artifacts, because we still need to explore the purpose of the ones that we have. Personally, as a DM and writer I prefer to have a few interesting items with history and story attached to them as opposed to a laundry list of minor items. I like artifacts because they don't always do what you expect, and may have agendas or purposes of their own. Stormbringer is part of what defines Elric; I don't especially care if he's also got a ring of protection +1 or +1 chainmail. As such, I have focused more on the unusual items that the group possesses - Lady Darkheart, the Tooth of the Wanderer, and whatever Daine's sword is than on lesser things. This is not to say that magic items have to be powerful to be interesting; handled properly, a +1 sword can be just as interesting as the Sword of Kas. Sting isn't as powerful as Orcrist, but it's still important to Bilbo. Pierce's flail may not be an artifact, but it's still something Pierce will want to explore and come to terms with. Anyhow, I've given them the significant treasures they possess because of the role these have to play in the story, and it's something I'd do if I was running a campaign with these characters. But no, it's not my intention to pile artifact upon artifact upon them.
Edymnion 12-05-06, 07:47 PM	M'kay, maybe its just me, but they seem to get very powerful items quite easily. You'd think with an Artificer in the party, Lei would be the one making them some things, or that they would have to really get into something and have these things be major rewards. Its just sort of unsatisfying to basically have an NPC go "Here, you might want this stuff".
The Dreaming Duck 12-05-06, 10:57 PM	M'kay, maybe its just me, but they seem to get very powerful items quite easily. Agreed. After all, what kind of story would you get if someone's uncle just gives the main character the most powerful magic ring in the setting, or he's just handed his father's cloak of invisibility, or some watery tart lobs a scimitar at him. That sort of thing is just never going to make for a good story. You'd think... they would have to really get into something and have these things be major rewards. Yeah... something like disarming deadly traps and fighting obsidian fire giant golems in a Xen'drik vault or going to Thelanis and killing some sort of legendary boar-beast to earn the respect of the spirits. Seriously, though, neither Shira nor the Tooth of the Wanderer come easily. Even the darkwood staff involves facing a crazy excoriate and a powerful sphinx. Daine's sword appears to be a total freebie, but even there we don't know exactly what the story with it is, what it can do, or why. And as the saying goes, "beware the gifts of the Traveler." I understand where you're coming from, Edymnion... but I think there's precedent for powerful magic items *cough*Theonering*cough* to be "given" to protagonists, especially if the "gift" is not one of simple altruism. We don't know the full story of the Tooth of the Wanderer, but if you were to ask Xu'sasar, I'm sure she would explain that she had to travel to the afterlife and prove herself to the spirits to be granted this tool... and page 163-164 of GoN implies that there's a purpose to this "gift" that we don't yet realize. Also, honestly, how powerful IS, say, Daine's sword? Do we know? Most of the time, it seems to be an entirely normal sword. Occasionally it does a sort of dramatic burst, but what is that? Bane? It's not like he's fighting, say, a thousand orcs with it or anything like that, and he doesn't even seem to know how to activate its powers himself. Pierce's flail may just be a +1 flaming flail... but it looks cool. I dunno. We'll have to see how these things play out. I certainly don't want to see character abilities overshadowed by their mighty artifacts... but so far, I personally haven't felt that Daine's sword has made him unstoppable. It's not like he could have taken on Harmattan without Lei there, for example... and it's not the staff that lets Lei temporarily defeat Harmattan.
Edymnion 12-05-06, 11:51 PM	Yeah... something like disarming deadly traps and fighting obsidian fire giant golems in a Xen'drik vault or going to Thelanis and killing some sort of legendary boar-beast to earn the respect of the spirits. Seriously, though, neither Shira nor the Tooth of the Wanderer come easily. Even the darkwood staff involves facing a crazy excoriate and a powerful sphinx. Daine's sword appears to be a total freebie, but even there we don't know exactly what the story with it is, what it can do, or why. And as the saying goes, "beware the gifts of the Traveler."Yeah, but the One Ring was not a useful weapon, it was the main villian. And beating the boar meant they got to get to Dusk and then leave. The fact they just got handed a bunch of stuff while they were there just felt kind of... there. Yeah, I'm sure it'll come back with story reasons, but it would have been nice to see them get that sort of stuff in a less easy manner.
Raziel_Brokodar 12-06-06, 01:07 AM	:mad: when I went to pick up Shattered Land the other day I was hoping for Gates of Night to be there too, it wasn't! now I'm going to have to make another trip to that store later on :( anyway loving Shattered Land so far Keith :D
The Dreaming Duck 12-06-06, 02:14 AM	Yeah, but the One Ring was not a useful weapon, it was the main villian. It wasn't a WEAPON, but it was certainly a useful tool. And let's skip LOTR for a moment and look at The Hobbit. Are you going to tell me the ring isn't an extremely powerful and useful item in the context of that story? And yet, Bilbo actually finds it lying on the ground, because he happens to be in the right cave at the right time. Excalibur is a powerful weapon, and it's scabbard a powerful defense, and yet Arthur mainly gets these because he's the right guy in the right place at the right time. And as for the Ring being the villain as well as a useful tool - as far as I'm concerned, there's no assurance that the staff and/or Tooth aren't dangerous. Do we know for a fact that Darkheart isn't a dangerous villain? Bilbo didn't know the Ring was a danger in The Hobbit! And in LOTR again, the heroes receive their cloaks of elvenkind and assorted other gifts from Galadriel. And in The Chronicles of Narnia, the most famous treasures of Narnia are the gifts received by the four friends from Father Christmas. I'm not saying that you're wrong to want more, Edymnion. But I don't think the Dreaming Dark books are alone in having the characters receive powerful gifts. Furthermore, I still think that if you were playing the scene at the tabletop, it would come off very differently. The acquisition of Shira is a straight up dungeon crawl, complete with monsters and traps. And with the Tooth, if my players trudged across Thelanis, faced the Huntsman, defeated the uber-boar, and then a stranger appeared and said "Well done, you have earned this reward" - I don't think they'd say "He's just giving it to us?" If he said he was doing it because of their accomplishments to that point, I think they'd slap each other on the back and say "Go us!" Part of the problem here is that we don't SEE Xu acquire the Tooth, so we don't know exactly what was involved. So this may be a flaw of the story design. But as an adventure, I don't think my players would question their right to a reward. But that's just my opinion!
Quachil_Utaus 12-06-06, 05:29 AM	Part of the problem here is that we don't SEE Xu acquire the Tooth, so we don't know exactly what was involved. So this may be a flaw of the story design. But as an adventure, I don't think my players would question their right to a reward. Yes, I think it would be interesting if Xu made kind of a pact with the Wanderer in order to aquire the Tooth. Maybe she will lose something far more valuable in the coming books. I'm wondering, at the end of City of Towers Alina came of as this big player in events, but I was disapointed when she didn't appear in book two or three (or did I just fail to notice?), except for Daine's mind of course. I don't mind her schemes to be a lose end, but she had no presence over the course of the story. I thought her interest was far larger than just to provide the group with (quotation: "thrice damned Gerion" quotation end), and that selfless deed didn't seem to fit in her portfolio. I'm curious what's to come. It was really fun with the poor adventurers, and perhaps they get back to the gruel, it's not like they will thrive on the idea of selling their (artifact) equipment in order to get something solid to chew on (thanks to thrice-damned pawning halflings).
The Dreaming Duck 12-06-06, 10:59 AM	I'm wondering, at the end of City of Towers Alina came of as this big player in events, but I was disapointed when she didn't appear in book two or three... I didn't really see her as a big player in global events. I'm assuming that Alina is a member of the Aurum (did you notice her ten platinum rings?). To my mind this reflects the difference between the Aurum and the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust. The members of the Aurum are powerful and influential people, but they are still people who are largely pursuing their own personal goals... as opposed to something like the Dreaming Dark which is carefully manipulating events across the globe. So I think Alina is a powerful, influential person within Sharn, and possibly within Zilargo. But I'd see it as the difference between the Kingpin, who's the crime boss of a particular area, and Doctor Doom, who rules his own country and often threatens the entire world. Alina was a big player in Sharn, but her influence doesn't extend to, say, Thelanis. (Just my opinion, of course.) It was really fun with the poor adventurers... As far as I can see, they still ARE fairly poor. As you say, it seems unlikely that Xu will just sell the Tooth of the Wanderer for some gold. They have a place to live in Sharn, but my impression was that they invested most of their reward from Alina in it.
The Dreaming Duck 12-06-06, 11:36 AM	I've been thinking about it, and I think the question of Gifts is an interesting one. Obviously it goes against the essential D&D paradigm that you get treasure by killing monsters and taking there stuff. But looking at a range of fantasy literature: The Hobbit. The group acquire their weapons from the defeated trolls (though it's worth noting that the trolls are defeated through conversation and deception, not outright battle). However, Bilbo finds the Ring lying on a cavern floor. Later, they claim the treasure of the mountain after Smaug leaves, not after they defeat him. Lord of the Rings. Frodo receives the Ring, Sting, and the suit of mithril chain that later saves his life as a gift from Bilbo. The group receives what amount to cloaks of elvenkind, along with other gifts (the light of Earendil, the Elessar, the mallorn seed, etc) from Galadriel. They do acquire weapons from the encounter with the barrow wight, which could be seen as a more traditional defeat-the-monster situation. Harry Potter. Harry receives his invisibility cloak as a Christmas gift. The Chronicles of Narnia. Three of the Pevensies receive magical gifts - including weapons - from Father Christmas. These are considered to be great treasures of the kingdom, as seen in The Last Battle. Thomas Covenant. Thomas' wedding ring turns out to be an incredibly powerful talisman. Song of Ice and Fire. Jon Snow receives his Valyrian blade as a gift from the Old Bear. Brienne gets hers as a gift from Jaime. King Arthur. Whichever version of the legend you go with, Arthur doesn't go through great danger to acquire Excalibur; either it's a gift from the Lady of the Lake or drawn almost by accident out of the stone. His Dark Materials. Lyra receives the alethiometer as a gift from the Master of Jordan College. The Chronicles of Corum. The sorcerer Shool gives Corum the Hand of Kwll and Eye of Rhynn, believing that Corum will use these powerful and deadly artifacts to fulfil the wizard's goals. Achilles. More analgous to Lei than anything else, Achilles receives the "gift" of invulnerbility from his mother. Nonetheless, a powerful magical defense that is simply given to him. Can anyone think of any others? Dreaming Dark aside, I just think it's interesting to see how this trend plays out in fiction. Nonetheless, I can see the argument that this is, specifically, D&D fiction. However, I still feel that most of these situations would play out fine as adventures: Shira. As I've said, straight up dungeon crawl. The Tooth of the Wanderer. A reward given to Xu after she has fought the Huntsman and the boar. Sure, she doesn't rip it from the guts of the boar, but it is given to her immediately following the victory - "Good job, you've earned this" as opposed to just "Oh, hey, you - here's a powerful magical weapon." And as QU says, we don't know if she bargained for it. The Darkwood Staff. The party has a disturbing encounter with Jura. He gives them a staff and tells them to take it to the temple. In order to reach the temple, they have to fight goblins, guards, and ultimately Lei has to fight a minotaur with her bare hands. When they reach the sphinx, she tells them to keep the staff. So essentially it's Flamewind who "gives" them the staff - and only after they've been through a number of trials. Again, while they don't wrest the staff from the corpse of a foe, single combat with a minotaur (and encounters with guards, Darguul chainmasters, etc) doesn't exactly make this a freebie. Daine's Sword. I got nothing here, I admit. The other gifts from Thelania seem fairly minor, and are along the same line as Galadriel - "You've made it this far, here's a reward." It's not the typical D&D approach, or the MMO approach of "all things that are killed pop out treasure", but I don't think it's quite as simple as having powerful items just thrown at them all the time.
eehamburg 12-06-06, 11:57 AM	KB: I was wondering if in some novel in the future if you would explore a site that hasn't been covered in novels like Sarlona, Argonnessen, Everice, Frostfell, etc.
ekomega 12-06-06, 03:04 PM	The Hobbit. The group acquire their weapons from the defeated trolls (though it's worth noting that the trolls are defeated through conversation and deception, not outright battle). However, Bilbo finds the Ring lying on a cavern floor. Later, they claim the treasure of the mountain after Smaug leaves, not after they defeat him. You can't really lump together The Hobbit with The Lord of the Rings trilogy, in this case, because Tolkien didn't have a plan for the "ring" when The Hobbit was published. In fact, the first edition of the Hobbit was edited and re-released in a second edition around the time that LOTR came out. The editing specifically changed the interaction between Gollum and Bilbo in the cave, and how the ring was discovered. The ring wasn't originally supposed to lead to anything, and it was an incredibly useful tool (with no drawbacks) in The Hobbit. Revisionist history at work. So it's not fair to compare the ring in The Hobbit and the ring in LOTR. They might as well be entirely different rings, except clever editing and "sequel" books make them the same ring.
Belabras 12-06-06, 03:35 PM	You can't really lump together The Hobbit with The Lord of the Rings trilogy, in this case, because Tolkien didn't have a plan for the "ring" when The Hobbit was published. In fact, the first edition of the Hobbit was edited and re-released in a second edition around the time that LOTR came out. The editing specifically changed the interaction between Gollum and Bilbo in the cave, and how the ring was discovered. The ring wasn't originally supposed to lead to anything, and it was an incredibly useful tool (with no drawbacks) in The Hobbit. Revisionist history at work. So it's not fair to compare the ring in The Hobbit and the ring in LOTR. They might as well be entirely different rings, except clever editing and "sequel" books make them the same ring. While that may be true, the Ring is still given to Frodo at the beginning of the Fellowship. Other examples: Fafhrd and Grey Mouser never get items as rewards for defeating anything, only as gifts from Ningauble of the Seven Eyes and Sheelba of the Eyeless Face. They never kept them long though. Thor (depending on what myth you look at) doesn't do a thing to earn Mjolnir, he just gets it as a result of Loki dealing with two dwarven smiths. Sūn Wùkōng (the Monkey King) recieved his extendable Iron staff, as well as his golden armor, as a gift from the Dragon King.
The Dreaming Duck 12-06-06, 04:48 PM	So it's not fair to compare the ring in The Hobbit and the ring in LOTR. They might as well be entirely different rings... But as Belabras points out, for my purposes, I don't care if they ARE entirely different rings. The only thing that concerns me is how the hero of the story comes into possession of a powerful magic item. In The Hobbit, Bilbo stumbles upon it. In LotR, it's given to Frodo by Bilbo and Gandalf. Frodo doesn't have to overcome deadly danger to gain possession of it. The manner in which the item is used and the role it plays in the story certainly varies - but both rings are completely different from the artifacts Corum receives from Shool. What they share is that they come to the hero outside the standard D&D "Kill the monster, take the treasure" paradigm. And even setting the Ring aside, Frodo is outright given the mithril mail shirt (which IMO is a bit more singificant than its D&D counterpart), Sting, the cloak of elvenkind, and the light of Earendil... much as Daine & company receive gifts from Thelania. This doesn't mean it's the best choice from a story-telling perspective; all I'm saying is that there is certainly fantasy precedent. Thanks for the other examples, Belabras!
Hellcow 12-06-06, 04:50 PM	I was wondering if in some novel in the future if you would explore a site that hasn't been covered in novels like Sarlona, Argonnessen, Everice, Frostfell, etc. I'll just say that I have no plans to explore Everice or the Frostfell... and leave it at that. ;) Though I will note that I've written a piece for Dungeon set in the Frostfell--"Sunless Feoral"--but I don't know when it will see hte light of day, so to speak.
Belabras 12-06-06, 07:38 PM	Thanks for the other examples, Belabras! Happy to help. The idea of the hero recieving some critical item of power from benevolence or happenstance is one of the oldest in mythical lexicon. Heroe's rarely earn such things, they just seem to get handed them. It appears to be a universal convention.
Edymnion 12-06-06, 10:35 PM	While that may be true, the Ring is still given to Frodo at the beginning of the Fellowship.Yeah, but the Ring in LotR is *NOT* a gift. It is a burden. Its pretty rare that any hero has to risk life and limb just to take on a burden. But as a side note, Bilbo and Company got their magical weapons after beating the troll encounter in what can only be called a classic D&D encounter. Beat the trolls, search their cave, find loot. But to use some other examples: Wheel of Time: Rand gets Callandor after storming Tear in a massive battle. The Hobbit: Bilbo may have found the ring laying around, but he still had to out-riddle Golem, with the threat of being eaten if he failed. Its a non-combat encounter, but its still an encounter. And like I already said, Sting was a result of beating the trolls. Shattered Land: Note that I did not mention Shira in my initial post. Yes, that one was pure dungeon crawl with boss encounter at the end. The point is though that with a D&D based setting, its rather rare that the DM would just hand over a bunch of stuff like that.
Euangelion 12-06-06, 11:28 PM	The point is though that with a D&D based setting, its rather rare that the DM would just hand over a bunch of stuff like that. Unless the DM ran a whole series of encounters in which the players were unable for one reason or another to receive material rewards after completing them, for example a series of encounters in a city setting where looting the dead body of a defeated opponent amounts to stealing or at least tampering with evidence (oh, let's say it's Sharn, the City of Towers). The material rewards in that case would be appropriate in the form of gifts received at a later time, maybe even in a kind of "lump-sum payment," especially since (as many others have pointed out) gift-giving is a staple of fantasy stories (but it's also very important to remember that not all gifts that are given in fantasy stories are physical objects!) In other words, Daine and Co. received very litte material rewards for their exploits throughout the series. If it were a campaign, the punctuated receiving of gifts would be a very important part of the fun, taking the place of yoinking gems off most defeated opponents or something like that.
The Dreaming Duck 12-07-06, 02:15 AM	Yeah, but the Ring in LotR is *NOT* a gift. It is a burden. Its pretty rare that any hero has to risk life and limb just to take on a burden. Sure, but what about Sting, the mithril shirt, and the gifts of Galadriel? But as a side note, Bilbo and Company got their magical weapons after beating the troll encounter in what can only be called a classic D&D encounter. First, I'll note that I pointed this out in my list of descriptions. Second, I wouldn't really call it a classic D&D encounter, unless your players generally defeat their opponents using ventriloquism instead of swordplay. However, it is the case of defeat the monster, get the treasure. The Hobbit: Bilbo may have found the ring laying around, but he still had to out-riddle Golem, with the threat of being eaten if he failed. Its a non-combat encounter, but its still an encounter. And like I already said, Sting was a result of beating the trolls. But how is this any different from Lei and the staff? Jura doesn't give Lei the staff as a gift; he gives it to her and tells her to give it to Flamewind. It is Flamewind who gives it to her as a gift, and in order to reach Flamewind, Lei has to beat a minotaur with her bare hands. She doesn't take the staff from the minotaur's body, but the staff is given to her as a direct consequence of beating the minotaur. I don't see how this is any different than Bilbo acquiring the ring by chance, but then having to face Gollum to keep it. The point is though that with a D&D based setting, its rather rare that the DM would just hand over a bunch of stuff like that. Unless the DM ran a whole series of encounters in which the players were unable for one reason or another to receive material rewards after completing them... I'm with Euangelion on this one. Xu'sasar overcomes multiple challenges with no reward in Thelanis. The spirit appears and gives her a reward, and in my mind it's all about presentation. If it just says "Congratulations, you're the fifteenth person to walk in this grove! You get the booby prize!" - that's unlikely to happen. But if it says "You have proven yourself through your actions, last of the Qaltiar; receive now the weapon of your destiny" - that's easily something I might do in a campaign, and something I'd find more satisfying than "You kill the boar, and find a magic dagger lodged in its hide" or something like that. As for the Wheel of Time example, don't get me wrong, Edymnion. In my opinion, heroes earning their rewards through strife is more common than the alternative, especially in a D&D setting. I'm simply pointing out that "gifts" also have a strong foundation in literature and folklore. With that said, I do think you are underestimating the challenges the characters face in acquiring their tools. If post-acquisition riddles with Gollum count, I think fighting a minotaur and braving Thelanis are equal challenges.
Jimmifett 12-08-06, 03:13 PM	Considering Eberron and City of Towers is what got me into dnd and dump several hundred dollars into dnd & eberron products over the course of 2 years, WOTC should be very pleased. I've torn through each of the three books as soon as i got them. I really enjoyed Gates of Night, but now i'm desperate for more. I'm not a big fan of drow, but i love how they are handled in eberron and i love Xu. Her naivete outside her own warrior / semi-nomadic culture is great and how it conflicts with 'civilized' cultural precepts is excellent. I enjoyed how the fey was played out. very nice. I've loved Jode throughout the books. I would love to see more books following this crew on thier adventures.
ohako79 12-08-06, 09:34 PM	Much as I enjoyed the series, I vote that you should shelve the Dreaming Dark team for the time being. a) Tolkein did it in three. Any more than that just drives me crazy, unless you're Ursula K. LeGuin or Douglas Adams. I actually really hate the Song of Fire and Ice, in part because the last half of Book 2 was a giant advertisement for Book 3. After Book 3 I threw them all in the garbage. b) One of the things I noticed in Gates of Night was that there was a fairly big chunk of exposition from previous books about the main characters' action and motivations. It was easy to build Jode and Daine out of their first lines of dialog from City of Towers, but it will become more and more annoying to me to have their complexities from that starting point fleshed out by re-hashed flashbacks. You know, one of the things I've been noticing about Dungeons & Dragons fiction (or, at least from the book covers) is all the dramatic fighting. I mean, I enjoy me a good ripping Keith Baker Eberron novel or a Hellboy tie-in, but still: all this fighting. I vote that Mr. Baker should write a story where a party of warforged (and one warforged scout named, oh, 'Hornet') somehow end up in a situation being forced to wear lacy underpants on their heads. I'd buy that. Then again, I'm nuts. Toodles!
The Dreaming Duck 12-08-06, 11:00 PM	Tolkein did it in three. Sure, but Gandalf is a central character in The Hobbit. And honestly, I'd bet that any single book in The Lord of the Rings is about the same length as the entire Dreaming Dark trilogy. I share your frustration with series that never end. I love Song of Ice and Fire, but hate the fact that it's just going on and on, and I gave up on Wheel of Time long ago. On the other hand, I loved Sherri S. Tepper's True Game books, because they overlap instead of simply being one continuous story. The Dreaming Dark has come to a close. There are certainly unresolved issues with the characters. But I would assume that a second series or trilogy would focus on an entirely different story arc. With the Dreaming Dark out of the picture, what's the action that drives the story? Given this, I would expect the relationship between the series to be more akin to Sherri S. Tepper's books, Edding's Belgariad and Mallorean, or Donaldson's additional chronicles than two books of Song of Ice and Fire or The Wheel of Time. The important thing to me would be for a second trilogy to be able to stand on its own in addition to following the first one. As long as that's possible - as long as I could read it and enjoy it without reading the Dreaming Dark - I'll be happy.
The Dreaming Duck 12-08-06, 11:19 PM	So, I'll raise a point for discussion, dealing with the draconic eidolon. What do you think actually happened in this scene? A few things stood out to me: Towards the end of the scene, is the eidolon talking to Daine... or to someone else? Just before it breathes on Daine, it says "The way has been prepared. Take our gift, and walk the world once more." Is Daine the recipient... or the gift? After it breathes on him, there's a lot of references to "the dragonfire" within him, which is gone in chapter 32. So... was that dragonfire a spirit contained within the eidolon? If so, what went into "preparing the way"? When Daine first approaches the eidolon, it says "A traveler, and a most unusual one at that." On page 132, when Daine approaches the Keeper of Secrets, it says "I give you greetings, traveler." When the scorpion spirit talks to the party, it calls Lei "Child of Cannith", addresses Xu'sasar by name, and calls Daine... "traveler", not once, but twice. Mere coincidence? Take a look back at the eidolon. When they first approach it, it takes the form of a silver dragon, and challenges them in an aggressive manner. When they engage it in more scholarly discussion, it shifts to the form of a blue dragon. Well, according to the ECS, Dol Dorn is sometimes depicted as a silver dragon, while mystical Aureon is shown as a blue dragon. On page 295, we see copper, bronze, red, green, all the way to a dracolich and a dragon "black as any shadow"... all colors matching members of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six. Elsewhere, Hellcow said that the Silver Flame could be considered an eidolon. Could it be that we've just seen the Sovereigns? If so, what does it mean that both Aureon and the Shadow are both part of the eidolon?
Edymnion 12-08-06, 11:40 PM	Tolkein did it in three.Actually, no, he didn't. Tolkien originally wrote the Lord of the Rings as six books, not three. It was later publishers that combined them into the three (and later one) book that we know today.
Jancarius 12-08-06, 11:57 PM	So, I'll raise a point for discussion, dealing with the draconic eidolon. What do you think actually happened in this scene? A few things stood out to me: Towards the end of the scene, is the eidolon talking to Daine... or to someone else? Just before it breathes on Daine, it says "The way has been prepared. Take our gift, and walk the world once more." Is Daine the recipient... or the gift? After it breathes on him, there's a lot of references to "the dragonfire" within him, which is gone in chapter 32. So... was that dragonfire a spirit contained within the eidolon? If so, what went into "preparing the way"? When Daine first approaches the eidolon, it says "A traveler, and a most unusual one at that." On page 132, when Daine approaches the Keeper of Secrets, it says "I give you greetings, traveler." When the scorpion spirit talks to the party, it calls Lei "Child of Cannith", addresses Xu'sasar by name, and calls Daine... "traveler", not once, but twice. Mere coincidence? Take a look back at the eidolon. When they first approach it, it takes the form of a silver dragon, and challenges them in an aggressive manner. When they engage it in more scholarly discussion, it shifts to the form of a blue dragon. Well, according to the ECS, Dol Dorn is sometimes depicted as a silver dragon, while mystical Aureon is shown as a blue dragon. On page 295, we see copper, bronze, red, green, all the way to a dracolich and a dragon "black as any shadow"... all colors matching members of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six. Elsewhere, Hellcow said that the Silver Flame could be considered an eidolon. Could it be that we've just seen the Sovereigns? If so, what does it mean that both Aureon and the Shadow are both part of the eidolon? I like this point. I will now yoink it for my game.
Edymnion 12-10-06, 11:30 PM	Hmmm... good points, although if you're aiming at Daine being the Traveller, I think thats a bit too far. But don't forget, its very possible that the sovereigns as we know them started out as dragons back in the age of dragons that took the Ascended Dragon PrC and gained divine rank, and just sort of kept becoming more and more powerful, until they began being worshipped.
3nigma 12-10-06, 11:31 PM	I want to start reading Gates of the Night ASAP! I was wondering, is there anywhere online where someone has written a synopsis of the first two novels, to recap before starting the third? I was going to just skim the first two, but I remembered that there are a lot of small subtleties throughout the books scattered that have much larger implications later. I'm sure I would overlook many of these in skimming quickly. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks, -3nigma
Edymnion 12-11-06, 12:45 AM	I'd say just get the other two books. Keith's writing isn't hard to read, and the books aren't very long. I read each of them in a day and still had plenty of time left over. And they're good reads, so really you will likely spend more time trying to find a synopsis than you would actually reading the books themselves.
The Dreaming Duck 12-11-06, 01:51 AM	Hmmm... good points, although if you're aiming at Daine being the Traveller, I think thats a bit too far. With any other deity, I'd agree. But what do we know about the Traveler? It's the only deity said to walk the earth, but it does so in a wide variety of different forms, and "cannot be confined to a single form or gender". As such, it's the only one of the Sovereign/Six that doesn't have a dragon form associated with it. Instead... When the eidolon addresses Daine, it says a traveler. My question is: what if the Traveler isn't an individual, and that THIS is why a) the Traveler walks the world and b) it is encountered in so many different forms... because it's actually multiple beings? I'm not saying that DAINE is a god; I'm saying that Daine was being prepared to be the vessel for a divine essence. Tied to this, note that when the dragon "breathes" on Daine, after saying "The way is prepared, take our gift and walk this world again", it changes shape. It shifts through the different dragons of Six and Nine. Fitting again with the idea that the Traveler can't be tied to a single form - that on some level, it is all of the others. I'll be the first to say that it's a crazy theory... but I'd like to hear how others interpret these events.
3nigma 12-11-06, 10:06 PM	I'd say just get the other two books. Keith's writing isn't hard to read, and the books aren't very long. I read each of them in a day and still had plenty of time left over. And they're good reads, so really you will likely spend more time trying to find a synopsis than you would actually reading the books themselves. Sorry if I wasn't very clear- I've already read both of the first two books, it's just been 2 years since I read the first, and a year since I've read the second. I could certainly re-read them, but I have VERY little free time. I also didn't want it to come across as I'm lazy or something either, I just don't have hardly any free time whatsoever, and I'm unbelievably anxious to get on to finishing the epic! Maybe it helps to reread my post in light of now knowing I have indeed already read them. There used to be some "Book Club" forums, which I have now learned have been taken down. They had some *fantastic* synopsises, which I was wondering if there are any others anywhere. I just don't want to miss some of the subtleties throughout the books, such as dialogue with Stormwind, etc. If anyone could help even to a slight degree, it would be incredibly appreciated! Thanks again, -3nigma
Bluebrush 12-12-06, 05:40 AM	There used to be some "Book Club" forums, which I have now learned have been taken down.Do you mean the this forum (http://worldsofdnd.com/forum/)? There's book club archives towards the bottom of the forum list.
Edymnion 12-12-06, 07:49 AM	Sorry if I wasn't very clear- I've already read both of the first two books, it's just been 2 years since I read the first, and a year since I've read the second. I could certainly re-read them, but I have VERY little free time. I also didn't want it to come across as I'm lazy or something either, I just don't have hardly any free time whatsoever, and I'm unbelievably anxious to get on to finishing the epic!Oh, don't worry about it then. He does some quicky recaps on the important parts in GoN. I read the first two books as they came out, and didn't re-read them before GoN, and I followed along with everything just fine.
Arcane Guyver 12-12-06, 03:40 PM	But what do we know about the Traveler? It's the only deity said to walk the earth, but it does so in a wide variety of different forms, and "cannot be confined to a single form or gender". Interesting. So, theoretically speaking: * The Traveler could be born into a person, and once that person is killed, it is reborn immediately in another person. Sort of like reincarnation. * It's less deity and more of a cosmic force, like 'Captain Universe' from the 616 Marvel Universe. Just some powerful being that jumps into random people, empowering them temporarily. * Or the Traveler could be some extraordinarily powerful doppelganger who has convinced people that it is in fact a deity, on par with the rest of the Sovereigns. And despite it's insidious ambitions or goals, it's also convinced people that it isn't evil and has little to no connection to the other corrupt deities of the Dark Six.
The Dreaming Duck 12-12-06, 03:57 PM	Or the Traveler could be some extraordinarily powerful doppelganger who has convinced people that it is in fact a deity... I guess my point - tied to "a traveler" - is that the Traveler may not BE a single entity. It could be multiple beings all operating under a single name, using the "can't be confined to a single shape" as a cover. You don't even have to be a doppelganger, because when people meet the Traveler in a new form, they'd just ASSUME he/she had changed shape, when in fact it's two separate people. It's already been said that members of the Cabinet of Faces assume the role of the Traveler occasionally, either using divine channeling or simply playing the part without any additional abilities. Setting that aside and turning to Gates of Night: When Lei is carrying the darkwood staff, many people in Thelanis see her as Lady Darkheart; it's as if they respond to her aura as opposed to her physical appearance. Similarly, many refer to Daine as "traveler" - notably the Keeper of Secrets. So I'm not saying that he IS the Traveler; I'm saying that by the time he's reached Thelanis, he's been prepared to become a Traveler, and that people are responding to that. The infusion of energy from the shifting draconic eidolon may be the final step, which comes along with the fact that we see images of what might be the Sovereigns shifting shape... perhaps representing the idea that the Traveler cannot be confined to a single concept either. He's told "Walk this world again", which let's face it, is a bizarre statement to make to someone who's already BEEN walking the world for the last three books. And at the end of the book, Daine is seemingly displaced from his body. So, I'm not saying that Daine was the... or a... Traveler in book one. But is he now a vessel for the Traveler? What would that even mean? Personally, I like the theory that there's more than one Traveler, but I think it's interesting either way.
mhacdebhandia 12-12-06, 07:15 PM	If Lei carrying the darkwood staff is seen as Lady Darkheart, perhaps Daine is called "traveler" because of someone he's carrying along with him.
Euangelion 12-13-06, 10:34 AM	So, I'll raise a point for discussion, dealing with the draconic eidolon. What do you think actually happened in this scene? A few things stood out to me: Towards the end of the scene, is the eidolon talking to Daine... or to someone else? Just before it breathes on Daine, it says "The way has been prepared. Take our gift, and walk the world once more." Is Daine the recipient... or the gift? After it breathes on him, there's a lot of references to "the dragonfire" within him, which is gone in chapter 32. So... was that dragonfire a spirit contained within the eidolon? If so, what went into "preparing the way"? When Daine first approaches the eidolon, it says "A traveler, and a most unusual one at that." On page 132, when Daine approaches the Keeper of Secrets, it says "I give you greetings, traveler." When the scorpion spirit talks to the party, it calls Lei "Child of Cannith", addresses Xu'sasar by name, and calls Daine... "traveler", not once, but twice. Mere coincidence? Take a look back at the eidolon. When they first approach it, it takes the form of a silver dragon, and challenges them in an aggressive manner. When they engage it in more scholarly discussion, it shifts to the form of a blue dragon. Well, according to the ECS, Dol Dorn is sometimes depicted as a silver dragon, while mystical Aureon is shown as a blue dragon. On page 295, we see copper, bronze, red, green, all the way to a dracolich and a dragon "black as any shadow"... all colors matching members of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six. Elsewhere, Hellcow said that the Silver Flame could be considered an eidolon. Could it be that we've just seen the Sovereigns? If so, what does it mean that both Aureon and the Shadow are both part of the eidolon? In response: Perhaps the eidolon is composed of the avatars of the SH and D6 rather than the gods themselves
Edymnion 12-16-06, 02:21 PM	So, Keith says there are clues scattered through the trilogy, so does anybody have any ideas on who Lei's father thinks caused the Mourning?
Bluebrush 12-16-06, 03:13 PM	I think that was discussed earlier. I suggested The Traveller or one of his agents, who helped Lei's parents build Lei. We do already have someone wandering around handing out artifacts, so it's probably linked to that.
Edymnion 12-16-06, 03:16 PM	I think that was discussed earlier. I suggested The Traveller or one of his agents, who helped Lei's parents build Lei. We do already have someone wandering around handing out artifacts, so it's probably linked to that.I would prefer that that not be the case, as even the Traveller is a god, and I don't want to see any kind of physical representation of the gods in Eberron. A powerful being claiming to be the Traveller, but isn't, is one thing. Actually having the Traveller come down in person is another.
Joni-san 12-19-06, 10:34 AM	Some random notes: *I think that the statue in Thelanis is this "Kellan" figure mentioned in the glossary (pg.367). I think Kellan's spirit is bound to that scabard in someway. Because Daine is stuck with Jode in Dal'Quor I have a reason to believe that Kellan has possesed Daine's body. *The "travel the world" thingy migth be connected to this somehow. *Pierce pwns, Lei is lol, Daine's deeper, Xu is uuh... xiotic? Some stuff: Keith, I love your writing, but these cliffhanger endings are a bit annoying. Can you try to have a less open ending in the next book-series? Something in the style of the CoT ending, with maybe slightly more closure? Otherwise the book was awesome. IMO the characters grew and the writing was good.
Jancarius 12-19-06, 01:20 PM	To hop back to CoT, who was that woman talking at the very end of it?
Edymnion 12-19-06, 09:29 PM	Keith, I love your writing, but these cliffhanger endings are a bit annoying. Can you try to have a less open ending in the next book-series? Something in the style of the CoT ending, with maybe slightly more closure?Oh come on, when was the last time you saw some classic pulp serial type show that tied up all the strings and left you with a well deserved happy ending? I mean, this is the genre that actually created the phrase "cliff hanger" because of their habit of leaving the hero hanging off the side of a cliff until the next issue/episode.
Hellcow 12-20-06, 11:38 AM	Keith, I love your writing, but these cliffhanger endings are a bit annoying. Can you try to have a less open ending in the next book-series? Something in the style of the CoT ending, with maybe slightly more closure? This has certainly been one of the most common responses to Gates of Night, and I will keep it in mind in the future. As Edymnion notes, the cliffhanger is a proud pulp tradition, and I don't necessarily want to tie EVERYTHING up neatly. However, CoT had a fairly solid ending while still having a few loose ends. For what I have planned next, I'm thinking endings closer to CoT than Shattered Land.
Joni-san 12-20-06, 02:38 PM	I'll clarify my opinion a little: I liked the way City of Towers ended. It tied things up pretty nicely while leaving some strings loose for future use. We knew The Shattered Land was going to get its story continued in Gates of Night. Thus the sudden cliffhanger ending was OK. Gates of Night is sort of inbetween, leaning slightly towards SL type ending. In principle do not mind a cliffhanger ending. It's just that we don't have a guaranteed "season 2" so to speak. So if 'season 2: book(s) 1 (and 2)' end(s) with a cliffhanger, that's fine, but if book 3 does, I'll be slightly ticked. Having loose ends at the end of a series is OK by me. Leaving room for another series is good for us fans. But having some closure ,in my opinion, is needed. (A small cliffhanger might be good actually, depending on how it's written. Just not 'zomg hueg' ones, please?) Is that better? Sorry for the slightly negative tone there earlier Keith.
Hellcow 12-20-06, 03:15 PM	Sorry for the slightly negative tone there earlier Keith. I didn't even notice. As I said, it's probably the main response I've heard to GoN!
Edymnion 12-20-06, 06:12 PM	Having loose ends at the end of a series is OK by me. Leaving room for another series is good for us fans. But having some closure ,in my opinion, is needed. (A small cliffhanger might be good actually, depending on how it's written. Just not 'zomg hueg' ones, please?)Actually, I think the way he did it was pretty good. He *DID* tie up all the major loose ends of the trilogy. The issue with what happened to Jode was cleared up, the dreaming dark invasion was defeated, the manipulations of the main characters by certain quori have ended, it all wrapped up pretty nicely. As was said already in this thread, if you don't read the epilog, you have a pretty good ending, even if it does end up leaving Daine and Jode a little dead. Instead, at the very end we get the same thing that happens with the Nightmare on Elm Street, and in the pulp. The story is all wrapped up, and we get one last gotcha that makes absolutely certain that, if/when more books come out, that we will buy them. Not only is it right in line with the genre, its a sound way to ensure future sales (which is why the old pulps did it in the first place).
Slayen 12-20-06, 08:37 PM	Frankly, the thing that buged me the most is that we end with the crew stuck in the middle of Reidra with no known way of getting home. See, leaving some plot threads open is a good thing, but leaving the main characters in the middle of hostile territory at the end of the trilogy with no guaranty of another book just doesn't settle well with me. So consider this another vote for a second series with Daine and crew, plus a vote for more endings like that of CoT, rather than GoN.
UCsimplyme 12-25-06, 01:14 PM	Yeah, I put her together, and she has to be slightly higher level than the others to do all the stuff she does. I think I called her a "war wraith" - based on the scorpion wraith (powers over shadow, jumping action, venomous touch), but there were a few things I shifted away from the base scorpion wraith. Keith, I know that you mentioned Xu being based on the Scorpion Wraith PrC but I think alot of her abilities would be better replicated using the Swordsage class from 9 swords. I figure the comments regarding shadows hugging her form as she stepped out of them was the Child of Shadow stance (gain concealment while moving) from the Shadow Hand school and the references to her superior unarmed fighting were references to her use of Tiger Claw maneuvers. What are your thoughts? I would be curious to see if you had considered this at all when building her concept.
Hellcow 12-26-06, 09:01 PM	What are your thoughts? I would be curious to see if you had considered this at all when building her concept. At the time I wrote the book, Tome of Battle wasn't actually out yet, so I didn't have ToB in mind WHILE I was writing it. However, I think the systems presented in the ToB are a far better match for the sort of abilities Xu possesses than traditional monk/ranger/wraith. So yes, if I had to pin her down, I'd probably go swordsage and create a variation of the scorpion wraith that ties in with that.
krocha 01-16-07, 09:09 PM	Duly noted. I am still learning what works and what doesn't. Personally, I like the touch of suspense and mystery; cliffhangers and pulps go hand in hand, and there's a lot of clues as to what's going on there spread throughout the series. But just because *I* like it isn't an excuse to torment my readers. :) Just out of curiosity, would you have been happier if you hadn't read the epilogue? (I'm thinking I could race out and put "Don't read the epilogue!" stickers on copies at local stores!) And I am curious to hear people's reactions to Xu, so thanks for the feedback. First off, I thought all three books where a fantastic read. I'm DMing an Eberron campaign right now for players unfamiliar with the setting and I'm giving extra EP's to anyone who reads them cause I think they are a great way for someone new to the setting to get a good idea of what it's all about. So, in regards to the Gates of Night, I really loved Xu (then agin I'm biased cause I love the fresh take on the Drow in Eberron) and all the twists/turns around Lei and Pierce. As to the question of the ending, I guess I'm OKAY with not having a traditional ending but only if there will be more books!!! If for some unseen reason more aren't green lighted then it will turn out to be a very dissappointing ending though. If I had one suggestion for leaving a trilogy on a cliffhanger, it would be not to make it as much of one as it is. It's great for a first or second book but imagine if Return of the King ended with Frodo and Sam on the rock waiting to die. I kind of was left with that sort of feeling. Overall GREAT work though.
mhacdebhandia 01-16-07, 09:35 PM	imagine if Return of the King ended with Frodo and Sam on the rock waiting to die. Wow, would that have ever been better than the nineteen endings we got. At the moment they faded down from that scene, I felt that it was the right moment to end the film on. Nothing I saw subsequently changed my mind about that.
AskaniPsion 01-16-07, 10:15 PM	I loved the first 2 books in the series but the third book disappointed me. The story was supposed to deal with the Dreaming Dark & yet they hardly appeared. I was disappointed also in that Lakashtai was taken out so easy. She was very cool in the 2nd book & yet here in the 3rd book she really did nothing. Very anti-climatic. I was hoping to see more Psionic based stuff - there wasn't that much. I did like Xu-sasar though. Lei on the other hand is one of the most annoying characters I have ever read in a book - kinda like Cattie-brie in the Drizzt books. I also don't like how the book just ended - it was like watching a TV series and they cancel it so you don't have an ending to it. I would love to see Keith do a series just dealing with the Kalashtar, Adar & Riedra. As you can tell I am a big Psionics fan :D
krocha 01-16-07, 10:18 PM	Wow, would that have ever been better than the nineteen endings we got. At the moment they faded down from that scene, I felt that it was the right moment to end the film on. Nothing I saw subsequently changed my mind about that. Just an honest question here, not trying to be a wise guy, did you ever read the book or are you just basing you feelings on the movie?
mhacdebhandia 01-16-07, 11:42 PM	I have never finished reading past about half-way through The Two Towers, and that was when I was younger and foolishly believed I had a duty to read such a fantasy classic. I know all the reasons why the novel ends as it does, and why the movie ends as it does, but I genuinely believe that even if you like Tolkien and Jackson's movies, that moment's so much better as an ending than anything that comes after it.
DargonSwift 01-17-07, 09:48 AM	I was not looking forward to a story with another drow character. I've met Bob Salvator (and Keith briefly at GenCon), and love both author's work, but Bob's turned drow into a cultural juggernaut. Leaving that behind was part of the appeal of Eberron for me. Even as predjudiced as I was against another drow character, Xu won me over. Keith was able to make the drow distinctly Eberron, and I didn't find myself thinking of matron mothers at all. I really enjoyed her unique view, and how Daine reacted to her. I was very pleased with the planar jaunt. Eberron is intimately tied to various planes, more so than most settings, but we hear very little about people traveling to those planes. I would like to see Keith write a book centered in Darguun, and dealing with the goblinoid characters, nation, and culture. I am interested in another Daine & crew book, but I'm more interested in the Dhakaani/Darguun goblinoids and think he'd be the best to write it. Also, the epilogue was good for me. -Dargon
Hellcow 01-17-07, 12:15 PM	I would love to see Keith do a series just dealing with the Kalashtar, Adar & Riedra. As you can tell I am a big Psionics fan :D Well, hopefully you'll enjoy Secrets of Sarlona then... (rules, not novel, but you'll still get your kalashtar, Riedra, and Adar.)
AskaniPsion 01-17-07, 06:18 PM	Well, hopefully you'll enjoy Secrets of Sarlona then... (rules, not novel, but you'll still get your kalashtar, Riedra, and Adar.) I am VERY excited about it. I will be there the day it comes out. :) Eberron and especially the Kalashtar have breathed new life into a player who has played for 23+ years of D&D. Thanks for both!! :D BTW how do you actually pronounce "Kalashtar" - is it Ka-lash-tar or Kal-ash-tar ?? Is there any telepath based prestige classes in the Sarlona book?
AskaniPsion 01-17-07, 06:19 PM	Even as predjudiced as I was against another drow character, Xu won me over. Keith was able to make the drow distinctly Eberron, and I didn't find myself thinking of matron mothers at all. I really enjoyed her unique view, and how Daine reacted to her. Yeah she ended up being a really great character - would love just a novel on her.
Amara Trapspringer 01-19-07, 12:42 AM	Mr. Baker, First I just want to say THANK YOU! It has been a while since I have found a fantasy series that has so completely won me over. Not since Weis/Hickman have I read such an edge of your seat adventure. Or more fantastic characters. I am not a drow or psionics fan by any means, But you utilized the them to a great story advantage. I have to say, I TRULY enjoyed all three books. The first and second kept me hanging on a thread and I couldn't wait for the next books release. Book three I found very satisfying. It leaves just the right amount of room open for any number of adventures for the party. If I had to choose one topic, realm, or storyline I would like to see explored, it would have to be Cyre or Flamekeep. I look forward to more of your novels and game rules.