Gestalt Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Radazim
05-28-04, 11:06 AM All these new D&D sourcebooks have my head swimming with ideas. I'm eager to try out Eberron, and I also want to try gestalt characters from UA.

Do you think that there is anything about the Eberron setting that would make it particularly ill-suited for using gestalt characters? I'm not looking to start a debate about gestalt characters themselves - if you don't like the gestalt variant rule there's no need to respond.
jedi8187
05-28-04, 11:27 AM Originally posted by Radazim
All these new D&D sourcebooks have my head swimming with ideas. I'm eager to try out Eberron, and I also want to try gestalt characters from UA.

Do you think that there is anything about the Eberron setting that would make it particularly ill-suited for using gestalt characters? I'm not looking to start a debate about gestalt characters themselves - if you don't like the gestalt variant rule there's no need to respond.

The thing is Eberron is relatively low power. By level eight(gestalt) you'd be equal in power to the highest level NPC in the campaign(lvl 16). So i don't think it would be appropriate for Gestalts.
Hanuman47
05-28-04, 11:50 AM I disagree. The whole premise of Eberron is pulp/noir in a world where the PCs are extraordinary - if they don't stop the force of evil, no one can. Think of some pulp characters: Doc Savage, Indiana Jones, and so on. These were not ordinary people! They are larger than life, with capabilities far beyond normal mortals. Sure, it would It would be a departure from a standard campaign set up, but I think that's a given anytime you use gestalt characters. Go for it, Radazim - just let us know how it turns out!
Hellcow
05-28-04, 11:53 AM Originally posted by jedi8187
The thing is Eberron is relatively low power. By level eight(gestalt) you'd be equal in power to the highest level NPC in the campaign(lvl 16).
I actually need to sit down with my copy of UA and check out gestalts but just to address this point, Jaela is the highest-level NPC cleric, not the highest-level NPC period. There is a druid of higher level, but there is a very good reason that Oalian won't be showing up to save the day. And there are certainly higher-level malevolent NPCs -- and if there aren't enough for the needs of your campaign, add more!

And yes, good point, Hanuman. The PCs are supposed to be remarkable people; this is the point of Action Points. So, this might be a further way of realizing that heroic potential!
Radazim
05-28-04, 12:29 PM Gestalt multiclassing gives you the better of each class's BAB, HD, and Saves, and you get both class's class features at each level. In the end, it's clearly more powerful than a single-classed character of the same level, but not quite twice as powerful because you can still only be in one place at a time and can only cast or attack once per round.

It can get pretty out of hand if you let people run wild with class combinations and PrC's, but as a DM I'm not about to let that happen if it will hurt the campaign.

For example, I will require that each character have a "primary" class which will advance from 1 to 20 (if the campaign goes that far), while their "secondary" class could vary or include PrC's. Many PrC's may be disqualified if they only facilitate multiclassing a caster without adding any new class features, such as Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, or Eldritch Knight.

Also, I plan to disallow certain "redundant" combinations like Sorc/Wiz, Ftr/Pal, etc., not to mention anything that results in alignment conflicts like Bbn/Monk or Pal/Bard. The point is to go for flavor, not min/maxing.

Thanks for the input. I think that with my current group of four players and some judicious restrictions, gestalt characters can work okay. Further input is always appreciated.
Radazim
05-28-04, 12:39 PM Originally posted by jedi8187
The thing is Eberron is relatively low power. By level eight(gestalt) you'd be equal in power to the highest level NPC in the campaign(lvl 16). So i don't think it would be appropriate for Gestalts.

Actually, that's not accurate. A gestalt character is perhaps 25-50% more powerful than a single-classed character of the same level, depending on the class combination.

A gestalt Cleric8/Wizard8 is still an 8th level character, with 8 HD, caster level 8, and access to 5th level spells. A single-classed Cleric16 is caster level 16 with 16 HD, caster level 16, and access to 8th level spells. A cleric 16 or wizard 16 would destroy a gestalt cleric8/wizard8 without breaking a sweat.

I look at gestalt the way the Encounter Level table works. For example, two creatures of CR 8 are considered an EL 10 encounter. I think that, at best, a gestalt character of level 8/8 would be equivalent to a single classed level 10 character. (Keep in mind that two CR8 creatures have twice the hit points, act twice in a round, can coordinate actions, flank, etc.)
jedi8187
05-28-04, 05:19 PM Ok thanks Hellcow for clearing that up.
I wasn't fully thinking when I made my comment, and your right gestalt charecters aren't as powerfull as i thought(although Razidrim you forgot with you Wiz/Clr is 2 8th level caster, although in one body, but they have more spells/day and a wider selection of spells).
An Hanuman I agree that the PCs will be extrodianry, but the world as a whole is lower level so it doesn't take much to me extrodinary, and I still feel the gestalts would be a little overpowering in an Eberron campaign, but its up to you, and as long as you create equal threats(i.e. gestalt villians as well) then it shouldn't be a problem.
WilliamPall
05-28-04, 10:35 PM Originally posted by Hellcow
Jaela is the highest-level NPC cleric, not the highest-level NPC period. There is a druid of higher level, but there is a very good reason that Oalian won't be showing up to save the day.
Suddenly the image of Atlas holding up the world from Greek mythology pop through my head. This guy might be more powerful, but he's busy holding back a larger threat than anything else in the world . . . .
SJE
05-29-04, 04:25 AM Originally posted by WilliamPall
Suddenly the image of Atlas holding up the world from Greek mythology pop through my head. This guy might be more powerful, but he's busy holding back a larger threat than anything else in the world . . . .

Please no- 'cos that would be Elminster all over again....

How about the dude doesnt show up all the time because even if hes 18th level, he's still 85 dont you know and bedridden?

SJE
WilliamPall
05-29-04, 11:29 AM Ah, my ignorance of the realms rears its head again . . .

But anyway . . I like your idea much betterthan mine.
Hellcow
05-29-04, 12:43 PM SJE has the right idea, though it's a little stranger than that. And while the druid is higher level than Jaela, I'll note that there are no epic-level NPCs mentioned in the CSB, so we're still not on a par with the Big E.
fourmyle
05-30-04, 05:53 PM I like the idea and practice of gestalting quite a bit, and I think, with appropriate consideration, it could be really good for Eberron, like others have said, because the PCs are supposed to be extrodinary.

The way my current DM has balanced the power kick you get from gestalting (in addition to traditional methods, like raising CRs without raising XP gained and such) is to force the character (at the player's option) into an emotional crisis for a few levels, which has both roleplaying and mechanics (2 Negative Levels while in crisis). After overcoming the crisis, both through roleplay and leveling up, the character comes out of it more powerful, ie, gestalted. It's worked out really well so far, and has pushed players who wouldn't normally do so, to put a lot more thought into the emotional development of their characters.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
05-30-04, 06:43 PM [C.E.T]
About this high level druid person...
I recently bought Complete Divine and had a good look at the Geomancer PrC and it got me thinking. What if this druid has gone through some kind of devolution to be one with nature, living of the life force of Eberron itself. If SJE had the right idea that this druid cant get around to help everyone, perhaps the druid has become some kind of tree? Or perhaps is bound to a tree like a dryad. That would explain why he cant come out to help...its either he cant move at all anyway (perhaps he casts all spells with still metamagic?), or if he strays too far he will die.
Simple...but possible.
[/C.E.T]
jedi8187
05-30-04, 07:25 PM Maybe Oalian just doesn't care. I've always liked the idea of Druid who has given up on the plights of society. What if this guy is disillusioned or just totally apathetic. He cares only for himself and nature. He doesn't come out to help others because there is nothing in it for him, now if xoriat came back, then yeah he'll come out of the woods to save his own hide. But nothing short of world catastraphy will get him away from his home.

Or what if he was present in during the Mourning and had his legs blown off, so he litteraly move to help out.

I like Eats idea however.
SJE
06-02-04, 02:35 AM Originally posted by ieattrollsforbreakfast
[C.E.T]
If SJE had the right idea that this druid cant get around to help everyone, perhaps the druid has become some kind of tree? [/C.E.T]

Trolls could be onto something- perhaps this Druid has taken enough levels in the Xtreme Treehugger PrC that he has metamorphed into one!

These are the perils of enviromentalism they never tell you about..... :-)

SJE
stone_dog
06-02-04, 02:52 AM Well, a tree would certainly have little ability to cruise around and meddle in published adventures.

Something about devolving or changing into a tree though... just doesn't sound right.
Brastan
06-02-04, 03:13 AM Gestalting seems all right but its also complicated, more complicated than I would want to be encharge of. How do you multi-class a Gestalt character? I just can't get my head around it. Anyways, if you have villains of equal level go for it. Just don't be suppressed when the PC's start killing most of the normal NPCs with no problems. I bet if you keep going with it you'll find some sort of balance. But I would guess that your unlikely to see official Gestalt characters, is all up to you (if you real want to do all of the work).

Eberron doesn't need epic for now. By the time it is need, you can just throw a Githyaki invasion at them, wouldn't that be a surprise. Eberron the lost home of the Giths, explains why they never found it until now :smirk:.
theOne333
06-02-04, 10:28 AM Originally posted by Radazim

Also, I plan to disallow certain "redundant" combinations like Sorc/Wiz...

What?! That would be an awesome character! You would have spells like fireball on your sorceror list and more miscellaneous spells like nystul's magic aura on your wizard list. You'd be like Mordenkainen or Elminster or Malhavoc (my personal favorite, read the italicized opening paragraph of the Book of Eldritch Might I for why), the most powerful spellcaster ever! What's not to like? (Except for the lack of improvement on saves, het pts., skills, etc.; in that a fighter/sorcerer or fighter/wizard would be best)
stone_dog
06-03-04, 10:13 PM The more I look at Swashbuckling Adventures (http://www.swashbucklingadv.com/products.html) the more I want to gestalt (Why couldn't they just call it dual class?) with this book. Just toss out everything that has to do with firearms or Thean specific magic and you seem to be doing pretty well.
A cleric of the Silver Flame blended with the inquisitor class.
An elite Thrane knight from a slightly altered musketeer/fighter.
A sorcerer/courtier for a noble gifted with arcane power.
A rogue/ranger would lead into the Archeologist PrC nicely.

Sure the power level is a bit more than usual, but as long as you are walking into it with eyes open then there shouldn't be a problem.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Radazim 05-28-04, 11:06 AM	All these new D&D sourcebooks have my head swimming with ideas. I'm eager to try out Eberron, and I also want to try gestalt characters from UA. Do you think that there is anything about the Eberron setting that would make it particularly ill-suited for using gestalt characters? I'm not looking to start a debate about gestalt characters themselves - if you don't like the gestalt variant rule there's no need to respond.
jedi8187 05-28-04, 11:27 AM	Originally posted by Radazim All these new D&D sourcebooks have my head swimming with ideas. I'm eager to try out Eberron, and I also want to try gestalt characters from UA. Do you think that there is anything about the Eberron setting that would make it particularly ill-suited for using gestalt characters? I'm not looking to start a debate about gestalt characters themselves - if you don't like the gestalt variant rule there's no need to respond. The thing is Eberron is relatively low power. By level eight(gestalt) you'd be equal in power to the highest level NPC in the campaign(lvl 16). So i don't think it would be appropriate for Gestalts.
Hanuman47 05-28-04, 11:50 AM	I disagree. The whole premise of Eberron is pulp/noir in a world where the PCs are extraordinary - if they don't stop the force of evil, no one can. Think of some pulp characters: Doc Savage, Indiana Jones, and so on. These were not ordinary people! They are larger than life, with capabilities far beyond normal mortals. Sure, it would It would be a departure from a standard campaign set up, but I think that's a given anytime you use gestalt characters. Go for it, Radazim - just let us know how it turns out!
Hellcow 05-28-04, 11:53 AM	Originally posted by jedi8187 The thing is Eberron is relatively low power. By level eight(gestalt) you'd be equal in power to the highest level NPC in the campaign(lvl 16). I actually need to sit down with my copy of UA and check out gestalts but just to address this point, Jaela is the highest-level NPC cleric, not the highest-level NPC period. There is a druid of higher level, but there is a very good reason that Oalian won't be showing up to save the day. And there are certainly higher-level malevolent NPCs -- and if there aren't enough for the needs of your campaign, add more! And yes, good point, Hanuman. The PCs are supposed to be remarkable people; this is the point of Action Points. So, this might be a further way of realizing that heroic potential!
Radazim 05-28-04, 12:29 PM	Gestalt multiclassing gives you the better of each class's BAB, HD, and Saves, and you get both class's class features at each level. In the end, it's clearly more powerful than a single-classed character of the same level, but not quite twice as powerful because you can still only be in one place at a time and can only cast or attack once per round. It can get pretty out of hand if you let people run wild with class combinations and PrC's, but as a DM I'm not about to let that happen if it will hurt the campaign. For example, I will require that each character have a "primary" class which will advance from 1 to 20 (if the campaign goes that far), while their "secondary" class could vary or include PrC's. Many PrC's may be disqualified if they only facilitate multiclassing a caster without adding any new class features, such as Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, or Eldritch Knight. Also, I plan to disallow certain "redundant" combinations like Sorc/Wiz, Ftr/Pal, etc., not to mention anything that results in alignment conflicts like Bbn/Monk or Pal/Bard. The point is to go for flavor, not min/maxing. Thanks for the input. I think that with my current group of four players and some judicious restrictions, gestalt characters can work okay. Further input is always appreciated.
Radazim 05-28-04, 12:39 PM	Originally posted by jedi8187 The thing is Eberron is relatively low power. By level eight(gestalt) you'd be equal in power to the highest level NPC in the campaign(lvl 16). So i don't think it would be appropriate for Gestalts. Actually, that's not accurate. A gestalt character is perhaps 25-50% more powerful than a single-classed character of the same level, depending on the class combination. A gestalt Cleric8/Wizard8 is still an 8th level character, with 8 HD, caster level 8, and access to 5th level spells. A single-classed Cleric16 is caster level 16 with 16 HD, caster level 16, and access to 8th level spells. A cleric 16 or wizard 16 would destroy a gestalt cleric8/wizard8 without breaking a sweat. I look at gestalt the way the Encounter Level table works. For example, two creatures of CR 8 are considered an EL 10 encounter. I think that, at best, a gestalt character of level 8/8 would be equivalent to a single classed level 10 character. (Keep in mind that two CR8 creatures have twice the hit points, act twice in a round, can coordinate actions, flank, etc.)
jedi8187 05-28-04, 05:19 PM	Ok thanks Hellcow for clearing that up. I wasn't fully thinking when I made my comment, and your right gestalt charecters aren't as powerfull as i thought(although Razidrim you forgot with you Wiz/Clr is 2 8th level caster, although in one body, but they have more spells/day and a wider selection of spells). An Hanuman I agree that the PCs will be extrodianry, but the world as a whole is lower level so it doesn't take much to me extrodinary, and I still feel the gestalts would be a little overpowering in an Eberron campaign, but its up to you, and as long as you create equal threats(i.e. gestalt villians as well) then it shouldn't be a problem.
WilliamPall 05-28-04, 10:35 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow Jaela is the highest-level NPC cleric, not the highest-level NPC period. There is a druid of higher level, but there is a very good reason that Oalian won't be showing up to save the day. Suddenly the image of Atlas holding up the world from Greek mythology pop through my head. This guy might be more powerful, but he's busy holding back a larger threat than anything else in the world . . . .
SJE 05-29-04, 04:25 AM	Originally posted by WilliamPall Suddenly the image of Atlas holding up the world from Greek mythology pop through my head. This guy might be more powerful, but he's busy holding back a larger threat than anything else in the world . . . . Please no- 'cos that would be Elminster all over again.... How about the dude doesnt show up all the time because even if hes 18th level, he's still 85 dont you know and bedridden? SJE
WilliamPall 05-29-04, 11:29 AM	Ah, my ignorance of the realms rears its head again . . . But anyway . . I like your idea much betterthan mine.
Hellcow 05-29-04, 12:43 PM	SJE has the right idea, though it's a little stranger than that. And while the druid is higher level than Jaela, I'll note that there are no epic-level NPCs mentioned in the CSB, so we're still not on a par with the Big E.
fourmyle 05-30-04, 05:53 PM	I like the idea and practice of gestalting quite a bit, and I think, with appropriate consideration, it could be really good for Eberron, like others have said, because the PCs are supposed to be extrodinary. The way my current DM has balanced the power kick you get from gestalting (in addition to traditional methods, like raising CRs without raising XP gained and such) is to force the character (at the player's option) into an emotional crisis for a few levels, which has both roleplaying and mechanics (2 Negative Levels while in crisis). After overcoming the crisis, both through roleplay and leveling up, the character comes out of it more powerful, ie, gestalted. It's worked out really well so far, and has pushed players who wouldn't normally do so, to put a lot more thought into the emotional development of their characters.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 05-30-04, 06:43 PM	[C.E.T] About this high level druid person... I recently bought Complete Divine and had a good look at the Geomancer PrC and it got me thinking. What if this druid has gone through some kind of devolution to be one with nature, living of the life force of Eberron itself. If SJE had the right idea that this druid cant get around to help everyone, perhaps the druid has become some kind of tree? Or perhaps is bound to a tree like a dryad. That would explain why he cant come out to help...its either he cant move at all anyway (perhaps he casts all spells with still metamagic?), or if he strays too far he will die. Simple...but possible. [/C.E.T]
jedi8187 05-30-04, 07:25 PM	Maybe Oalian just doesn't care. I've always liked the idea of Druid who has given up on the plights of society. What if this guy is disillusioned or just totally apathetic. He cares only for himself and nature. He doesn't come out to help others because there is nothing in it for him, now if xoriat came back, then yeah he'll come out of the woods to save his own hide. But nothing short of world catastraphy will get him away from his home. Or what if he was present in during the Mourning and had his legs blown off, so he litteraly move to help out. I like Eats idea however.
SJE 06-02-04, 02:35 AM	Originally posted by ieattrollsforbreakfast [C.E.T] If SJE had the right idea that this druid cant get around to help everyone, perhaps the druid has become some kind of tree? [/C.E.T] Trolls could be onto something- perhaps this Druid has taken enough levels in the Xtreme Treehugger PrC that he has metamorphed into one! These are the perils of enviromentalism they never tell you about..... :-) SJE
stone_dog 06-02-04, 02:52 AM	Well, a tree would certainly have little ability to cruise around and meddle in published adventures. Something about devolving or changing into a tree though... just doesn't sound right.
Brastan 06-02-04, 03:13 AM	Gestalting seems all right but its also complicated, more complicated than I would want to be encharge of. How do you multi-class a Gestalt character? I just can't get my head around it. Anyways, if you have villains of equal level go for it. Just don't be suppressed when the PC's start killing most of the normal NPCs with no problems. I bet if you keep going with it you'll find some sort of balance. But I would guess that your unlikely to see official Gestalt characters, is all up to you (if you real want to do all of the work). Eberron doesn't need epic for now. By the time it is need, you can just throw a Githyaki invasion at them, wouldn't that be a surprise. Eberron the lost home of the Giths, explains why they never found it until now :smirk:.
theOne333 06-02-04, 10:28 AM	Originally posted by Radazim Also, I plan to disallow certain "redundant" combinations like Sorc/Wiz... What?! That would be an awesome character! You would have spells like fireball on your sorceror list and more miscellaneous spells like nystul's magic aura on your wizard list. You'd be like Mordenkainen or Elminster or Malhavoc (my personal favorite, read the italicized opening paragraph of the Book of Eldritch Might I for why), the most powerful spellcaster ever! What's not to like? (Except for the lack of improvement on saves, het pts., skills, etc.; in that a fighter/sorcerer or fighter/wizard would be best)
stone_dog 06-03-04, 10:13 PM	The more I look at Swashbuckling Adventures (http://www.swashbucklingadv.com/products.html) the more I want to gestalt (Why couldn't they just call it dual class?) with this book. Just toss out everything that has to do with firearms or Thean specific magic and you seem to be doing pretty well. A cleric of the Silver Flame blended with the inquisitor class. An elite Thrane knight from a slightly altered musketeer/fighter. A sorcerer/courtier for a noble gifted with arcane power. A rogue/ranger would lead into the Archeologist PrC nicely. Sure the power level is a bit more than usual, but as long as you are walking into it with eyes open then there shouldn't be a problem.