Gestalting in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalting in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tweedledope
09-23-06, 01:58 PM I was just hoping for a general consensus on a simple question here. University has resumed and many of my players have left the group. I'm down to about four people (regulars) and I was wondering what everyone though Gestalting would do to the overall gameplay to Eberron. Would it make the characters too powerful?

I know it's hard to say for sure, but, if you were to have a choice to make, in general, for eberron campaigns, what do you think about Gestalting?

-=TD=-
aelryinth
09-23-06, 02:38 PM Eberron is based upon a somewhat lower power curve then a normal campaign. I'd personally say no...but YMMV.

===Aelryinth
DBlizzard
09-23-06, 02:41 PM I know it's hard to say for sure, but, if you were to have a choice to make, in general, for eberron campaigns, what do you think about Gestalting?

In my opinion gestalt classes are good for two main games; games with too few players and games with high power levels. I don't feel Eberron fits the campaign with a high power level. It could be done, but there are many better campaigns for this.

That leaves games with too few players. I think gestalt is good for making sure you have the four main roles covered when you don't have four characters. For me, your game is fine for a standard game (in fact, the game is designed assuming you'll have four PCs), so I wouldn't go gestalt.

Of course, it's your group's game. If gestalt works for your game, and you all prefer to run in Eberron, go for it.
13thMark
09-23-06, 05:05 PM I'm running a gestalt group in Eberron currently . . .

I do not think gestalt will throw off any kind of game balance. In fact, it helps the group stand up to the kind of "seat of your pants" adventuring Eberron is all about.
Gestalt makes characters more versatile, not invincible. Just last night I ran the vampire from Whispers of the Vampire's Blade against the party and nearly killed a group of 5 gestalt characters. Luckily they decided to use their Action Points, but I did manage to permanently drain a level off of one of them.

However . . . I do have one concern about gestalting and it has to do with higher level adventures. At high levels, if you're building the baddies yourself, you have to build high level gestalt villains to accomodate for the vast amount of abilities the party will have. That's a LOT of work for the DM.
That's why I have the group gestalting 1st-5th level, then progressing as normal.
SPQR Anarchy
09-23-06, 08:58 PM I am running a pbp gesalt game in Eberron and I don't have a problem with balance or anything. I agree that the high advenure of the setting is a great place to run gesalt.

What I did was set up some limits to keep the flavour from becoming wierd. The campaign is about 3 members of a Silver Flame secret force that fights outsiders and the fight has them traveling all over the continent ala Indiana Jones.

I limited the classes by making the players choose cleric, paladin, or bard. I also had a list of banned classes (barbarian, warlock, etc.) that didn't fit the background.

Since it is a pbp (play by post) you can check it out at online-roleplaying.
http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=935
sren
09-24-06, 01:51 AM I'm running a gestalt game in Eberron now, and so far I haven't had a problem with the power levels of the characters. Gestalt really just gives the characters a few more options for overcomming challenges and a little more stamina, which generally makes the game more fun for the players. Just watch for the players to try and stack things that shouldn't stack (them finding a way to stack up sneak attack / sudden strike / skirmish dice can be a little troubling, but thats the only oneI found).

Overall, I've found that maintaining balance is rather easy, just add an opponent or two to each encounter and let them figure out how to get around traps and obstacles on their own. Also, make sure all of the party roles are covered (this was initially a problem for me, and I ended up with a party full of melee fighters).

As for how it fits into the theme of Eberron; there isn't anything about gestalt characters that doesn't fit. If a character with the same levels as a multi-class character fits, then a gestalt character would also fit in just fine.
Kemmotar_veon
09-24-06, 11:22 AM Actually one of my players is gestalting right now, he is a Sorcerer/paladin of the Silver flame...
it has been interesting... not as powerful as one could think... but he has proved quite useful to the party...
I think that almost every campaing setting can survive to a Gestalt, while the Gestalt is not something like Warlock/Soulknife or something like that
Trollbasher
09-24-06, 08:31 PM I am working on converting the Savage Tide to Eberron. I have three people who want to do a heavier RP sessions, so I have decided to let them Gestalt. I am figuring it will give them the skills and powers needed to accomplish the combat side of things, of course if they don't use tactics being one person short might be a drawback. I am hoping that with three people it will lead to more memorable RP, being that being that the other half of our regular gaming group is just bored during the RP time of our normal sessions. Which is cool, they like rolling dice and dealing damage. I agree that you should make any reoccuring villianous NPC gestalt as well, because Heck Fire its just plain fun to give allittle back
Violatrix
09-25-06, 04:13 AM One of the two Eberron games I currently DM is gestalt due to only having three players, and it actually does seem to add an element of high adventure, and does fit very well with the setting. It certainly makes the party a bit more survivable.

As mentioned though, gestalt can be a lot of work for the DM due to any NPC with class levels needing to also be gestalt in order to be a balanced challenge. It can be a headache, especially once you get into the mid-high levels.

Personally, I wouldn't gestalt more than three players, but YMMV.
Trollbasher
09-28-06, 03:39 PM I agree, Gestalting a party of three really does work quite well. One of the group is thinking of the leadership feat when it becomes available. I am considering allowing it depending on how well they are preforming at the time. I am only Gestalting one main reoccuring NPC, more than that seems a bit to time consuming.
Cintra
09-29-06, 10:13 AM I've been running a gestalt game for some time now (two players), and I almost never make the NPCs gestalt. Combat-encounter-NPCs are going to get so few actions anyway, the added flexibility of gestalt really doesn't benefit them. Adding a couple of levels to them, here and there, that I've done. (Admittedly, this campaign isn't in Eberron - it's actually the Forgotten Realms, where NPCs are supposed to be more powerful, and even there, I feel it's just somehow wrong to make the assumption that lots of other folks are Gestalt just because the PCs are. So in Eberron, it makes even less sense to me to bump the important NPCs that way.)

The only NPCs I bother to gestalt are a tiny number (two or three through the whole campaign, which has gone from 1st to about 15th level so far) who are going to be recurring bad guys, and who need the flexibility to be the appropriate sort of mastermind. It's worked very well.

So I think gestalt in Eberron is fine, and don't bother to gestalt all the NPCs.
ryanroyce
09-29-06, 06:24 PM Something I plan to do in my next Eberron campaign is to allow gestalt... sort of. All of the PCs would be members of a wandering troupe of "jazz" musicians who are always in search of the next gig and/or adventure (usually both). Hence, all the PCs would be gestalt X/bards, where X is up to the player.

This idea could be applied to a number of different concepts, such as a thieves' guild (X/rogue), a church (X/cleric or X/paladin), a company of retired soldiers (X/fighter), or even a trio of musketeers (X/swashbuckler). :cool:

I haven't actually tried this yet, so I'm not sure how it would actually work out, but I think it would be fun.

Of course, in any gestalt campaign (even the one mentioned above), I would severely limit the availability of most prestige classes, if not ban them entirely. I'd make notable exceptions for Dragonmarked Heir & Heir of Siberys, but that's about it.
alder_zeal
09-29-06, 09:17 PM The primary rules for gestalt in eberron, be sure no caster level of characters is greater than character level. Psionics Either one class psionic and the other non-psion exception to previous rule is mind blade. I rped a ardent/psion Kalashtar and had too many powerpoints. This said too many power points does not mean too powerful you can't use more than RAW. DM knocked my but down more than a couple of times.

I agree with the other Gestalt Eberron Gamers. It adds a high adventure feel. I like to say now my character shines like those characters in novels do.

Before you do gestalt you neede to set some ground rules like weapon proficiencies, Base class and second class. In our game we use the weapon groups, and you only get the weapon proficiencies of this class, and you gain armor proficiency on this basis too.

Base class 1 to 20 Wizard, 1 to 6 rogue, 6 to 10 Dragon mark heir, 11 to 20 Duskblade, or what ever, this way you have a core that the DM balances everything with. My group agreed on this as the rule because prestige in in classes at one time based on the Gestalt rules as written became too powerful.
OneWinged4ngel
10-02-06, 12:57 AM Eberron is based upon a somewhat lower power curve then a normal campaign. I'd personally say no...but YMMV.

===Aelryinth

:rant:

I strongly disagree with the idea that Eberron does not fit a high power level. You can play whatever power level you want in it! It's quite simple to find plenty of *EPIC* level material in Eberron. You just have to use Daelkyr instead of, say, the random level 20 wizard in every other hamlet.

That has to do with the DM's style, and nothing to do with Eberron as a setting. There's no reason for a lower power curve except for personal play style or a complete lack of imagination in a world where the setting doesn't lay out epic level NPCs all over for you, both of which have nothing to do with the setting!

Just because the Sharn Watch can't challenge epic level players doesn't mean the Lords of Dust can't. Just because *YOUR* games pit the characters against low-powered challenges don't mean others don't have heroic challenges. There are some people who fight thugs in Sharn, and other groups that have the pilot of a skycoach pull off a disguising spell to reveal himself as the villain, who promptly jumps off the ship and sends it careening towards a tower just as a skybarge pulls alongside loaded with elite mercenary archers that a flying mage takes off from, and hippogriff-riding lancers charge the ship (actually happened in my last session of Tom's game, actually... and we're level 7.)

Sorry... just sorta tired of hearing that. It's just plain wrong; the players can only be 'too powerful' in relation to the challenges presented to them. The setting doesn't even really have anything to do with it. It just doesn't follow logically.

Gestalt away if that's appropriate for the challenges you're giving them, or if it fits your playstyle, man.
Salla
10-02-06, 01:16 AM Well, as far as making PCs 'too powerful', that's a bit of a fallacy (if I'm using that term right). As the gestalt rules themselves say, the only measure of power that really matters is PCs vs CRs. A party of 3rd level characters is 'too powerful' if they only ever run into one unarmed human commoner at a time.

That said, I, personally, don't like gestalt, although I can't quite put my finger on why. The only time I would consider it, myself, is if I were running a game where, logically, everybody should be the same class, but I would feel like a total jerk for saying 'everybody has to be a (X)', plus it would make it hard for characters to shine due to their similarity. So, I'd say 'gestalt game, but one class must always be (X)', which is a fair compromise IMHO.
OneWinged4ngel
10-02-06, 02:28 AM Well, as far as making PCs 'too powerful', that's a bit of a fallacy (if I'm using that term right). As the gestalt rules themselves say, the only measure of power that really matters is PCs vs CRs. A party of 3rd level characters is 'too powerful' if they only ever run into one unarmed human commoner at a time.

I agree.
Euangelion
10-02-06, 09:47 AM And if one is concerned about the gestalt characters being too powerful, another option is to make the players pick an NPC class as their other class. They're not as powerful, of course, but there's still decent versatility if the players are creative enough.
reese
10-03-06, 12:33 AM i like the feel of gestaltingin eberron quite a bit, for one, as mentioned above, it gives players a little more juice to handle longer battles or encounters stacked on top of each other. also i think it really gives the feeling that in eberron the PC's really ARE special. no one (or hardly anyone) else can do what the PC's can do.

i may be playing a gestalt game going doing the Voyage of the Golden Dragon in about a month (or so i dearly hope). so far i have a whole slew of ideas:

human Denieth heir fighter 8/swashbuckler 3:duelist 5 (1st choice)
warforged fighter 8/paladin 4:pious templar 4
changeling artificer 8/rogue 6:inquisitive 2

anyway, just my opinion but i like it
Setherial
10-03-06, 02:41 AM we're currently playing gestald characters because we're a man short and it's a very hard adventure. Anyway the diference obviously lies in skill and diversity. Characters will become very good at a broad range of things, so for social encounters they might have a slight advantage over a normal group. In combat it really isn't all that more powerful. 3 gestald characters of lower then 6th level will only be able to hit 3 times per round, where 4 normal player will hit 4 times (HUGE difference). Against one foe this doen't matter all that much but against multiple opponents a party of 3 is weaker then a party of 4, no matter how strong. They will get outnumbered, they will have to absorb more punishment, they won't kill their opponents as fast etc... If you make up your own adventure it doesn't matter, if you play a published adventure by the letter you feel the difference.

bottom line, gestald is very nice but it doesn't equal an extra player by a long shot, so it's not that overpowered. (unless you go into silly combos and optimizations that would otherwise be very hard to accomplish). A way to limit this is restricting players to only 2 player classes and 1 prestige class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tweedledope 09-23-06, 01:58 PM	I was just hoping for a general consensus on a simple question here. University has resumed and many of my players have left the group. I'm down to about four people (regulars) and I was wondering what everyone though Gestalting would do to the overall gameplay to Eberron. Would it make the characters too powerful? I know it's hard to say for sure, but, if you were to have a choice to make, in general, for eberron campaigns, what do you think about Gestalting? -=TD=-
aelryinth 09-23-06, 02:38 PM	Eberron is based upon a somewhat lower power curve then a normal campaign. I'd personally say no...but YMMV. ===Aelryinth
DBlizzard 09-23-06, 02:41 PM	I know it's hard to say for sure, but, if you were to have a choice to make, in general, for eberron campaigns, what do you think about Gestalting? In my opinion gestalt classes are good for two main games; games with too few players and games with high power levels. I don't feel Eberron fits the campaign with a high power level. It could be done, but there are many better campaigns for this. That leaves games with too few players. I think gestalt is good for making sure you have the four main roles covered when you don't have four characters. For me, your game is fine for a standard game (in fact, the game is designed assuming you'll have four PCs), so I wouldn't go gestalt. Of course, it's your group's game. If gestalt works for your game, and you all prefer to run in Eberron, go for it.
13thMark 09-23-06, 05:05 PM	I'm running a gestalt group in Eberron currently . . . I do not think gestalt will throw off any kind of game balance. In fact, it helps the group stand up to the kind of "seat of your pants" adventuring Eberron is all about. Gestalt makes characters more versatile, not invincible. Just last night I ran the vampire from Whispers of the Vampire's Blade against the party and nearly killed a group of 5 gestalt characters. Luckily they decided to use their Action Points, but I did manage to permanently drain a level off of one of them. However . . . I do have one concern about gestalting and it has to do with higher level adventures. At high levels, if you're building the baddies yourself, you have to build high level gestalt villains to accomodate for the vast amount of abilities the party will have. That's a LOT of work for the DM. That's why I have the group gestalting 1st-5th level, then progressing as normal.
SPQR Anarchy 09-23-06, 08:58 PM	I am running a pbp gesalt game in Eberron and I don't have a problem with balance or anything. I agree that the high advenure of the setting is a great place to run gesalt. What I did was set up some limits to keep the flavour from becoming wierd. The campaign is about 3 members of a Silver Flame secret force that fights outsiders and the fight has them traveling all over the continent ala Indiana Jones. I limited the classes by making the players choose cleric, paladin, or bard. I also had a list of banned classes (barbarian, warlock, etc.) that didn't fit the background. Since it is a pbp (play by post) you can check it out at online-roleplaying. http://online-roleplaying.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=935
sren 09-24-06, 01:51 AM	I'm running a gestalt game in Eberron now, and so far I haven't had a problem with the power levels of the characters. Gestalt really just gives the characters a few more options for overcomming challenges and a little more stamina, which generally makes the game more fun for the players. Just watch for the players to try and stack things that shouldn't stack (them finding a way to stack up sneak attack / sudden strike / skirmish dice can be a little troubling, but thats the only oneI found). Overall, I've found that maintaining balance is rather easy, just add an opponent or two to each encounter and let them figure out how to get around traps and obstacles on their own. Also, make sure all of the party roles are covered (this was initially a problem for me, and I ended up with a party full of melee fighters). As for how it fits into the theme of Eberron; there isn't anything about gestalt characters that doesn't fit. If a character with the same levels as a multi-class character fits, then a gestalt character would also fit in just fine.
Kemmotar_veon 09-24-06, 11:22 AM	Actually one of my players is gestalting right now, he is a Sorcerer/paladin of the Silver flame... it has been interesting... not as powerful as one could think... but he has proved quite useful to the party... I think that almost every campaing setting can survive to a Gestalt, while the Gestalt is not something like Warlock/Soulknife or something like that
Trollbasher 09-24-06, 08:31 PM	I am working on converting the Savage Tide to Eberron. I have three people who want to do a heavier RP sessions, so I have decided to let them Gestalt. I am figuring it will give them the skills and powers needed to accomplish the combat side of things, of course if they don't use tactics being one person short might be a drawback. I am hoping that with three people it will lead to more memorable RP, being that being that the other half of our regular gaming group is just bored during the RP time of our normal sessions. Which is cool, they like rolling dice and dealing damage. I agree that you should make any reoccuring villianous NPC gestalt as well, because Heck Fire its just plain fun to give allittle back
Violatrix 09-25-06, 04:13 AM	One of the two Eberron games I currently DM is gestalt due to only having three players, and it actually does seem to add an element of high adventure, and does fit very well with the setting. It certainly makes the party a bit more survivable. As mentioned though, gestalt can be a lot of work for the DM due to any NPC with class levels needing to also be gestalt in order to be a balanced challenge. It can be a headache, especially once you get into the mid-high levels. Personally, I wouldn't gestalt more than three players, but YMMV.
Trollbasher 09-28-06, 03:39 PM	I agree, Gestalting a party of three really does work quite well. One of the group is thinking of the leadership feat when it becomes available. I am considering allowing it depending on how well they are preforming at the time. I am only Gestalting one main reoccuring NPC, more than that seems a bit to time consuming.
Cintra 09-29-06, 10:13 AM	I've been running a gestalt game for some time now (two players), and I almost never make the NPCs gestalt. Combat-encounter-NPCs are going to get so few actions anyway, the added flexibility of gestalt really doesn't benefit them. Adding a couple of levels to them, here and there, that I've done. (Admittedly, this campaign isn't in Eberron - it's actually the Forgotten Realms, where NPCs are supposed to be more powerful, and even there, I feel it's just somehow wrong to make the assumption that lots of other folks are Gestalt just because the PCs are. So in Eberron, it makes even less sense to me to bump the important NPCs that way.) The only NPCs I bother to gestalt are a tiny number (two or three through the whole campaign, which has gone from 1st to about 15th level so far) who are going to be recurring bad guys, and who need the flexibility to be the appropriate sort of mastermind. It's worked very well. So I think gestalt in Eberron is fine, and don't bother to gestalt all the NPCs.
ryanroyce 09-29-06, 06:24 PM	Something I plan to do in my next Eberron campaign is to allow gestalt... sort of. All of the PCs would be members of a wandering troupe of "jazz" musicians who are always in search of the next gig and/or adventure (usually both). Hence, all the PCs would be gestalt X/bards, where X is up to the player. This idea could be applied to a number of different concepts, such as a thieves' guild (X/rogue), a church (X/cleric or X/paladin), a company of retired soldiers (X/fighter), or even a trio of musketeers (X/swashbuckler). :cool: I haven't actually tried this yet, so I'm not sure how it would actually work out, but I think it would be fun. Of course, in any gestalt campaign (even the one mentioned above), I would severely limit the availability of most prestige classes, if not ban them entirely. I'd make notable exceptions for Dragonmarked Heir & Heir of Siberys, but that's about it.
alder_zeal 09-29-06, 09:17 PM	The primary rules for gestalt in eberron, be sure no caster level of characters is greater than character level. Psionics Either one class psionic and the other non-psion exception to previous rule is mind blade. I rped a ardent/psion Kalashtar and had too many powerpoints. This said too many power points does not mean too powerful you can't use more than RAW. DM knocked my but down more than a couple of times. I agree with the other Gestalt Eberron Gamers. It adds a high adventure feel. I like to say now my character shines like those characters in novels do. Before you do gestalt you neede to set some ground rules like weapon proficiencies, Base class and second class. In our game we use the weapon groups, and you only get the weapon proficiencies of this class, and you gain armor proficiency on this basis too. Base class 1 to 20 Wizard, 1 to 6 rogue, 6 to 10 Dragon mark heir, 11 to 20 Duskblade, or what ever, this way you have a core that the DM balances everything with. My group agreed on this as the rule because prestige in in classes at one time based on the Gestalt rules as written became too powerful.
OneWinged4ngel 10-02-06, 12:57 AM	Eberron is based upon a somewhat lower power curve then a normal campaign. I'd personally say no...but YMMV. ===Aelryinth :rant: I strongly disagree with the idea that Eberron does not fit a high power level. You can play whatever power level you want in it! It's quite simple to find plenty of EPIC level material in Eberron. You just have to use Daelkyr instead of, say, the random level 20 wizard in every other hamlet. That has to do with the DM's style, and nothing to do with Eberron as a setting. There's no reason for a lower power curve except for personal play style or a complete lack of imagination in a world where the setting doesn't lay out epic level NPCs all over for you, both of which have nothing to do with the setting! Just because the Sharn Watch can't challenge epic level players doesn't mean the Lords of Dust can't. Just because YOUR games pit the characters against low-powered challenges don't mean others don't have heroic challenges. There are some people who fight thugs in Sharn, and other groups that have the pilot of a skycoach pull off a disguising spell to reveal himself as the villain, who promptly jumps off the ship and sends it careening towards a tower just as a skybarge pulls alongside loaded with elite mercenary archers that a flying mage takes off from, and hippogriff-riding lancers charge the ship (actually happened in my last session of Tom's game, actually... and we're level 7.) Sorry... just sorta tired of hearing that. It's just plain wrong; the players can only be 'too powerful' in relation to the challenges presented to them. The setting doesn't even really have anything to do with it. It just doesn't follow logically. Gestalt away if that's appropriate for the challenges you're giving them, or if it fits your playstyle, man.
Salla 10-02-06, 01:16 AM	Well, as far as making PCs 'too powerful', that's a bit of a fallacy (if I'm using that term right). As the gestalt rules themselves say, the only measure of power that really matters is PCs vs CRs. A party of 3rd level characters is 'too powerful' if they only ever run into one unarmed human commoner at a time. That said, I, personally, don't like gestalt, although I can't quite put my finger on why. The only time I would consider it, myself, is if I were running a game where, logically, everybody should be the same class, but I would feel like a total jerk for saying 'everybody has to be a (X)', plus it would make it hard for characters to shine due to their similarity. So, I'd say 'gestalt game, but one class must always be (X)', which is a fair compromise IMHO.
OneWinged4ngel 10-02-06, 02:28 AM	Well, as far as making PCs 'too powerful', that's a bit of a fallacy (if I'm using that term right). As the gestalt rules themselves say, the only measure of power that really matters is PCs vs CRs. A party of 3rd level characters is 'too powerful' if they only ever run into one unarmed human commoner at a time. I agree.
Euangelion 10-02-06, 09:47 AM	And if one is concerned about the gestalt characters being too powerful, another option is to make the players pick an NPC class as their other class. They're not as powerful, of course, but there's still decent versatility if the players are creative enough.
reese 10-03-06, 12:33 AM	i like the feel of gestaltingin eberron quite a bit, for one, as mentioned above, it gives players a little more juice to handle longer battles or encounters stacked on top of each other. also i think it really gives the feeling that in eberron the PC's really ARE special. no one (or hardly anyone) else can do what the PC's can do. i may be playing a gestalt game going doing the Voyage of the Golden Dragon in about a month (or so i dearly hope). so far i have a whole slew of ideas: human Denieth heir fighter 8/swashbuckler 3:duelist 5 (1st choice) warforged fighter 8/paladin 4:pious templar 4 changeling artificer 8/rogue 6:inquisitive 2 anyway, just my opinion but i like it
Setherial 10-03-06, 02:41 AM	we're currently playing gestald characters because we're a man short and it's a very hard adventure. Anyway the diference obviously lies in skill and diversity. Characters will become very good at a broad range of things, so for social encounters they might have a slight advantage over a normal group. In combat it really isn't all that more powerful. 3 gestald characters of lower then 6th level will only be able to hit 3 times per round, where 4 normal player will hit 4 times (HUGE difference). Against one foe this doen't matter all that much but against multiple opponents a party of 3 is weaker then a party of 4, no matter how strong. They will get outnumbered, they will have to absorb more punishment, they won't kill their opponents as fast etc... If you make up your own adventure it doesn't matter, if you play a published adventure by the letter you feel the difference. bottom line, gestald is very nice but it doesn't equal an extra player by a long shot, so it's not that overpowered. (unless you go into silly combos and optimizations that would otherwise be very hard to accomplish). A way to limit this is restricting players to only 2 player classes and 1 prestige class.