Post/Author/DateTime	Post
j_blackfoot 04-29-05, 12:22 AM	Given the themes of moral ambiguity, corruption, and unpredictable alignment, I sometimes find it odd that Eberron didn't do away with Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law. I can see why they kept alignment (too many things tied to it, from class abilities, prestige class requirements, spell descriptors, and holy items), but it seems like the game would be better served if alignment (at least good vs. evil) was always an unknown. This would, of course, require changing some things--most notably the paladin's detect evil ability. I remember that this was a big part of the old Ravenloft setting. Part of the flavor of that game was maintained by making magic that detected alignment utterly ineffective. What are others' thoughts on this?
Beleriphon 04-29-05, 01:09 AM	I remember that this was a big part of the old Ravenloft setting. Part of the flavor of that game was maintained by making magic that detected alignment utterly ineffective. What are others' thoughts on this? I think its much more in keeping with Eberron to know somebody is evil, but not be able to do anything about it, either from politics, or because the person has never actually done anything wrong. Keep in mind that it sets up some terrific dichotomies if you know a person is evil by nature, but does nothing except feed the homeless and heal the sick. Hardly evil actions, and it would be one heck of an uphill battle to convince anybody of the fact.
a_psh 04-29-05, 01:24 AM	Well, except knowing whether people good are evil just tells you something about their general outlook on life, not whether they are good citizens or good allies. So you use detect evil on a shopkeeper and find out that he is greedy and self-absorbed. What can you do with this information? Similarly, let's say an ally of the party detects as good. Does that necessarily mean he won't betray you all to serve his goals? I think that, given how limited what you can actually do with this knowledge is in Eberron, detecting good and evil isn't really a major issue.
stone_dog 04-29-05, 01:33 AM	They didn't ditch alignment for the simple reason that alignment is part of D&D. Eberron was supposed to showcase D&D and highlight the features of the game in an interesting setting. Unfortunately (for me at least) alignment is a part of this. Personally? Aside from having Evil, Good, Law and Chaos as subtypes (for outsiders and direct supernatural forces) I've ditched alignment entirely. So far no issues have come up.
Zedium 04-29-05, 01:44 AM	Well, there is a Dragon magazine which provides alternatives to Detect Evil like Detect Agression etc etc. Too bad I can't remember which issue.
okaynowa 04-29-05, 01:45 AM	This is another reason why I plan to use the Arcana Evolved version of the PHB for my Eberron campaign. Under AE rules, people have the same moral standards and conflicts, they just aren't part of the game mechanics. You can say a guy's evil and be completely right, but there's no spell you can use to prove it.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 04-29-05, 01:50 AM	I try to have every player tell me at the start of each campaign and recap every few sessions what their character thinks of "good" and "evil". Law and Chaos I tend to keep only because those accurately describe people in REAL life without any real issue. Essentially, when a character in my campaigns uses something like "detect good" or "detect evil" I take into consideration the stance on good and evil the character has. A Paladin of the Sovreign Host who has been raised from birth to think of all followers of the Silver Flame as evil would see all followers of the Flame when using Detect Evil, regardless of how similar the morality of the individuals in question may be.
Kintara 04-29-05, 03:16 AM	Let the PCs kill or not heed an Evil character. It's easy to come up with scenarios where that would be a big mistake. Let the characters be duped by a Good character, either because he's a patsy, or because he has goals at cross-purpose with the PCs. Maybe the Good character is simply not as well informed as he supposes. Put the PCs in situations where there is no Good or Evil, just ambiguities. The alignment system in D&D actually makes for an interesting way to play with moral themes. And if you really need to trick the Detection, just use a spell or magic item to do so.
aelryinth 04-29-05, 03:59 AM	Remember that EVIL and GOOD are Universal Forces. The individual character's perception and belief does NOT impact how magic is going to work. He may be Raised to think all silver flamers are Evil, but his Detect Evil sense is never going to 'go off' on them unless they actually are, because it follows the universal laws, not his own beliefs. The paladin and the clerics are tools of higher powers, and Evil and Good are some of those powers. The characters do NOT determine what is Evil, and what is Good. Those are already laid out in the game. It could be perfectly acceptable and laudable to cheerfully torture your enemies and drag them around by their innards, and you would gain the admiration and respect of your friends for doing such things...but it's still an Evil act, because there are greater forces at work that say so. Evil is a subtype, like Flame, Water, Earth, etc. It's elemental. Just like your character can't change the definition of what Flame is, he can't change the definition of what Evil and Good are...they are set by stronger forces. Eberron has some very substantial recommendations for playing with the reality of alignments. Reread them. The people who can actually detect good and evil are people who are AWARE of forces beyond human understanding. They truly understand that there is a battle for souls going on...they can see it every time that Detect lights people up, or a Know ALignment shows them the sides people have picked. Having that ability in today's world...just imagine if you suddenly were confronted with the knowledge of what actually is Evil and Good, and the fact that there Really, Truly, is good and evil in existence. ANd people get to choose. And that demons and angels are warring over the fates of your souls, and doing all they can to keep people to their paths... You don't have FAITH in what's happening. You KNOW it's happening. It's part of your reality, from the moment you wake up, to the moment you wake up again. And nobody else will really, truly believe you, because they can't Detect what you can. And they go on about their plain, mundane lives, thinking you are crazy about all the little evils they do that they justify and shrug off and don't even know they are doing... That's what being a paladin or priest in Eberron would be like. Unless you can See the big picture, you don't give a flying (*&(*& about it. You are completely self-absorbed, and do what you want for your own reasons and your own justifications. You go thru life with spiritual blinkers on, and maybe you cleave to the Good, and maybe you don't, but you don't waste time thinking about it. I see paladins and clerics in Eberron like born-again preachers and the like in our world...except, the paladins are indeed right. But like such zealots trying to tell me how to live my life, I gaff them off and set my own standards. And the Evil guys? They just subtly encourage all of us in materialism, greed, hedonism, decadence, taking religion casually, etc etc. Greed is good for you, after all. Isn't it? The Paladin Knows otherwise...but who wouldn't want to believe it? i sure would. And I made a lot of money off that insider trading, too, and nobody got hurt...it MUST be good, if you do it properly. ==Aelryinth
Gurv 04-29-05, 11:26 AM	Remember that EVIL and GOOD are Universal Forces. The individual character's perception and belief does NOT impact how magic is going to work. That, along with everything else in your post, is true in D&D. It is also exactly the source of the problem. The only place where you are incorrect is that detect spells are available only to paladins and clerics and such. The whole premise of Eberron magic is that low-level spells are available to pretty much anyone. Any artificer can emulate those spells, and from there they become wands, scrolls, and use-activated items. I don't think being able to draw a clear line between good and evil is a good thing for an Eberron game. The uncertainty about what you are dealing with is part of the setting. Spells to detect good and evil have their place in many games, but in Eberron, they just serve to confuse the players. An evil cleric who heals and tends the sick? A greedy merchant who gives discounts to people who were maimed in the war? A good fighter who tries to kill you? My solution is similar to stone_dog's, in that the detect spells only sense true good, evil, law, or chaos. Creatures and spells with alignment subtypes are still detected. But most other things read neutral. Someone who is really undeniably evil, like a mass murdering assassin type, might also radiate evil; while a truely good person might radiate good. But those would be the extremes of humanity, not the baker and the candlestick maker who cheat customers or give to charity. I also don't take arguements from players about what their alignments are. Just like the people they are pretending to be, they can't look at it objectively. Especially about law and chaos. Of course they always have a reason why they did something...that doesn't make them lawful. I keep their alignments in my own notes. As PCs, they are frequently the extremes of humanity as far as alignment goes. I guess, like PC classes, I feel that alignment should mostly only apply to the PCs and the major villians. Other things might have them, but not to a significant level that can be measured.
Kintara 04-29-05, 01:44 PM	I don't think being able to draw a clear line between good and evil is a good thing for an Eberron game. The uncertainty about what you are dealing with is part of the setting. Spells to detect good and evil have their place in many games, but in Eberron, they just serve to confuse the players. An evil cleric who heals and tends the sick? A greedy merchant who gives discounts to people who were maimed in the war? A good fighter who tries to kill you?What's wrong with confusion?
Siran Dunmorgan 04-29-05, 03:53 PM	We had a discussion along these same lines over at the Dungeons & Dragons Online forum. What it came down to is something like this: "Evil" is defined as the stuff that shows up when you throw detect evil. Similarly for good, law, and chaos. There are enough people in Eberron who can do so—the various detect spells for alignment are 1st-level adept spells, after all—that no serious philosopher in Eberron questions this. Further, most have noticed that there is significant correlation between behavior and the way someone shows up to a detect spell. The debate, the real debate, in Eberron is whether any given alignment corresponds to rightness, in the sense of how things should be on a universal scale, i.e., is being evil better in the grand scheme of things than being good? My personal assertion—which most people on the thread found to be too bizarre to contemplate—is that good and evil are irrelevant; what matters is whether a given action harmonizes with the Prophecy or not. Actions undertaken that fulfill the Prophecy are right. Actions undertaken that deny the Prophecy are wrong. If someone murders a roomful of baby paladins[1], that's evil. If this happens in accordance with the Prophecy, it's right. If a blackguard renounces the service of the Dragon Below, and refuses to massacre the innocent, that's good. If this happens in discord with the Prophecy, it's also wrong. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] This apparently happens in... ahh... an upcoming film.
Gurv 04-29-05, 05:31 PM	What's wrong with confusion? Nothing. As long as it is confusion by the character, not by the player. If the player is confused about what the spell detects, then it is entirely different. We had a discussion along these same lines over at the Dungeons & Dragons Online forum. What it came down to is something like this: "Evil" is defined as the stuff that shows up when you throw detect evil. Similarly for good, law, and chaos. There are enough people in Eberron who can do so—the various detect spells for alignment are 1st-level adept spells, after all—that no serious philosopher in Eberron questions this. Further, most have noticed that there is significant correlation between behavior and the way someone shows up to a detect spell. The debate, the real debate, in Eberron is whether any given alignment corresponds to rightness, in the sense of how things should be on a universal scale, i.e., is being evil better in the grand scheme of things than being good? My personal assertion—which most people on the thread found to be too bizarre to contemplate—is that good and evil are irrelevant; what matters is whether a given action harmonizes with the Prophecy or not. Actions undertaken that fulfill the Prophecy are right. Actions undertaken that deny the Prophecy are wrong. If someone murders a roomful of baby paladins[1], that's evil. If this happens in accordance with the Prophecy, it's right. If a blackguard renounces the service of the Dragon Below, and refuses to massacre the innocent, that's good. If this happens in discord with the Prophecy, it's also wrong. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] This apparently happens in... ahh... an upcoming film. The problem is that in D&D, good and evil are not subjective, while in real life, good and evil [B]are[/I] subjective (at least as far as we can measure). Since real world people have to decide when something in D&D is good or evil, problems crop up instantly. Deciding what is good and evil becomes simpler when you have a guiding force that you assume is "always good", such as a divine force or god. Anything said by that source is accepted as true. It sounds as though Siran has suggested that the Prophecy play a similar role, and I agree that if you want to play an Eberron game in which what is "good" and what is "evil" play a large role, then you should likewise decide on something to define that in your game. In my own game, the Prophecy isn't going to have a definative "this will happen" influence, so much as "if A does/doesn't happen, then B will occur", so it can't guide in this way. My personal measuring stick of whether something is a good or evil act is this: 1) If an act requires personal sacrifice and benefits someone else, then it is a good act. (A beneficial act that doesn't cost you (or benefits) you is a neutral act. Remember that even time might be a sacrifice.) 2) If an act causes more harm than good for others and benefits you, then it is an evil act (even if the only benefit for you was enjoyment. Especially then). What film, and what the :censored: is a baby paladin? Are we working on the assumption that paladins are born, not made?
Calibim 04-29-05, 05:33 PM	My take on the whole alignment thing echoes some of the other things I have read. Say your paladin does detect evil on a disguise Rakasha, alarms go off!!!! I mean this is not "sorta Kinda" evil this is EVIL!!!! Now let's say it's just a "lawful evil" human. The paladin senses the selfishness in this individual, he may have a sense of honor or loyalty but it is twisted by this selfishness….by the belief that rules are good as long as they are his rules…this human is not to be trusted….and if he so much as steps out of line he’s getting a good smiting!! “Chaotic Evil”? A dark corruption feeds this persons soul, a pre-emptive smiting may be in order. Here are some ideas for the “feel” of other alignments: Lawful Neutral = Honor and Balance. Chaotic Neutral = Balanced Freedom, which could be pretty dangerous as it implies unscrupulous ideals or means to obtain or promote that freedom. Neutral = Balance in all things Chaotic Good = Unbound Goodness Lawful Good = The good of the law is the good of the people Neutral Good = The good Samaritan, some one who will do a good dead a treat someone in a good way only because it’s nice to do. So in closing, don’t make alignments black and white. When someone does detect evil or detect alignment don’t say the are the are “Chaotic Evil” say something along the lines of “a dark corruption pours from this persons soul, threatening to desecrate all it touches” My :twocents:
brotha_fas 04-29-05, 06:18 PM	I don't think being able to draw a clear line between good and evil is a good thing for an Eberron game. The uncertainty about what you are dealing with is part of the setting. Spells to detect good and evil have their place in many games, but in Eberron, they just serve to confuse the players. An evil cleric who heals and tends the sick? A greedy merchant who gives discounts to people who were maimed in the war? A good fighter who tries to kill you? Except it's intended to provide a certain amount of confusion. You may know that a person detects as evil, but you can't prove they are a threat. Do they detect as evil because they worship evil gods or because they have engaged in evil activities? Have they repented and are on the road to redemption? Eberron thrives on these ambiguous areas. My solution is similar to stone_dog's, in that the detect spells only sense true good, evil, law, or chaos. Creatures and spells with alignment subtypes are still detected. But most other things read neutral. Someone who is really undeniably evil, like a mass murdering assassin type, might also radiate evil; while a truely good person might radiate good. But those would be the extremes of humanity, not the baker and the candlestick maker who cheat customers or give to charity. Auras radiate at various strengths, so it should be able to tell the difference between a cheat and a murderer quite easily when using detect evil. I also don't take arguements from players about what their alignments are. Just like the people they are pretending to be, they can't look at it objectively. Especially about law and chaos. Of course they always have a reason why they did something...that doesn't make them lawful. I keep their alignments in my own notes. As PCs, they are frequently the extremes of humanity as far as alignment goes. Glad I don't have you as a DM. Players should be able to look at the alignments of their PCs objectively. It's your responsibility as a Dm to help them understand what actions might challenge their alignment view if there is something pops up that is questionable and the player intends to maintain the chosen alignment of their character.
yossarius 04-29-05, 06:36 PM	I don't have a problem with detecting alignment in my campaign because we did away with pc alignment a long time ago. It didn't take my players long to figure out that the paladin npc ally was just as capable of screwing them over as anybody else, and look, he can still lay on hands, too. I think this problem will take care of itself in other campaigns as well. As these spells/abilities become less and less useful, players will use them less & less. They won't have to be eliminated from the books; they'll just cease to exist due to simple lack of use.
taski 04-29-05, 10:00 PM	My personal assertion—which most people on the thread found to be too bizarre to contemplate—is that good and evil are irrelevant; what matters is whether a given action harmonizes with the Prophecy or not. Actions undertaken that fulfill the Prophecy are right. Actions undertaken that deny the Prophecy are wrong. I like this idea. A lot. And am I the only person who noticed the one post that mentions the prophecy in this thread is the 12th one? Anyway, in my game, we don't have a strong emphasis on alignment, and it hasn't been a problem. We've been considering switching detect good/evil/etc for things like detect altruism and detect malice... which would detect a person's intent at the moment. Well, there is a Dragon magazine which provides alternatives to Detect Evil like Detect Agression etc etc. Too bad I can't remember which issue. I'd like to know which issue that was, if anyone can help. Sounds like the kind of thing I want to use.
aelryinth 04-29-05, 11:30 PM	I saw that Dragon, and wasn't really impressed by the new Detects, but eh. I think the simple idea that you can have Good Clerics of Evil gods (and they radiate Evil AND Good) and evil clerics of Good Gods (and they radiate Good AND Evil) is going to play around with perceptions enough to make reality different. Unlike, say, in FR, having an alignment doesn't determine your base motivations and loyalties in Eberron. There's no overarching alliance of good powers, or even understandings between them. It Greyhawkish in that respect...rivalry between good powers often overwhelms alliances between them. Once you remove that Overall Alliance aspect of Good...suddenly, things do become a lot darker and grittier. ==Aelryinth
Streamweaver 04-30-05, 12:42 AM	This hasn't really come up in my game so far as I have no Paladins in the party and the Cleric doesn't do much of this. I had decided though to do this a bit differently than classic DnD games. If a paladin were to detect evil I wouldn't just say "he's evil" I'd try to make it more Star Wars-ish and ambigous. Using flavorful phrases like "You sense a darkness inside of them" or something like that perhaps. I'm not sure that would make a difference but that was the route I was going to try rather than cut it out.
Psymnotica 04-30-05, 01:07 AM	Something that hasn't been said in this thread is the alignment of the minor characters. Let us say that your Paladin or Cleric uses Detect Evil... on a seller of antiquities or a pawn broker. What exactly is he detecting? That this guy is Evil with a capital E, who wants to take over the world and raise the Rakshasa Lords? Or that this guy is more interested in himself and his profit margin over your characters need for money to put shelter over his head and fill his belly? The character doesn't know. The player doesn't know. But the DM does know. Alignment is only as clear as you group makes it out to be. In-character a character only knows that he/she has percieved evil within the soul of the individual. He doesn't know if the character has a family, or donates to charity, or even protects a soup kitchen that is racially biased towards humans. Out-of-character the player knows that the NPC has an evil alignment. He doesn't know how far along that axis the NPC has gone. Is he a serial murderer, or only a man who would do anything to protect his families well-being? Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law is integral to the game, even it is just as a warning to players in your campaign not to go after this particular NPC ("You get an overwhelming sense of evil from the man in front of you. What do you do?"). But it also serves as a vehicle to obscure the moral/ethical compass if portrayed correctly.
Beleriphon 04-30-05, 01:52 AM	What film, and what the :censored: is a baby paladin? Are we working on the assumption that paladins are born, not made? Er, its sort of about a some stars, and some wars. It may, or may not, include a midichlorians. Anyhoo, as for evil, even in the real world there are some things all cultures consider evil. Murder for instance is always considered evil, the problem occurs when one tries to define what constitutes murder. Some people might claim state sanctioned execution is murder, most would claim a terrrorist attack is murder. There terrorists don't, so it isn't murder to them, but if a murder takes place within their confines of what defines the act, it is still evil. At a very basic level, the good and evil in D&D define what all cultures consider repugnant, and virtuous . They represent the worst, and best, that humanity has to offer. At a basic level all people feel that helping those in need is good, while allowing somebody to be hurt for you're own benefit is not good.
Pinky's brain 04-30-05, 02:40 AM	Evil is as evil does ... a self serving shopkeeper is neutral, a self serving shopkeeper who makes exception for war veterans is lawfull neutral. “Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others.I dont know where this "egoism == evil" schtick I see here on the boards came from, but it isnt D&D :) Evil is a little more evil than that ...
Psymnotica 04-30-05, 02:56 AM	I dont know where this "egoism == evil" schtick I see here on the boards came from, but it isnt D&D Evil is a little more evil than that ... Um, look up the definitions for alignment in the players handbook. A Neutral Evil alignment says that they do "whatever she can get away with. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convienience." Ego is a big part of the nature of an NPC's alignment and motivation. An NPC's ego helps define what they want/desire, and if he/she is more willing to hurt others to get that, then they are definately more Evil than Neutral in my book.
Kintara 04-30-05, 03:06 AM	Intent and action matter. An exaggerated sense of self-importance is as often a trait of heroes as it is of villains, though. I don't think "egotism" is a particularly accurate measure of moral alignment. Callousness and a willingness to violate the rights of others for personal gain would be closer, but that doesn't have a necessary correlation to ego. You can be an egotistic martyr just as easily as you can be an egotistic psychopath. It sounds like a contradiction, but it really isn't.
Psymnotica 04-30-05, 03:34 AM	Callousness and a willingness to violate the rights of others for personal gain would be closer, but that doesn't have a necessary correlation to ego. You can be an egotistic martyr just as easily as you can be an egotistic psychopath. It's true that callousness and a willingness to violate the rights of others for personal gain is closer to Evil than a persons Ego, but consider where these ideas/ideals might stem from: the Ego. Being callous towards another can come from a superiority complex or a feeling of inhumanity towards others. A willingness to violate the rights of others can easily come from a sense of desperation or an overwhelming need to serve his personal/familial needs, both of which could easily result from a sense of pride; again, possibly stemming from ego. Ego can easily be used to argue an Evil alignment, but I am not saying it is exclusive to that part of the alignment spectrum. I am just saying that it CAN be Evil, and that Ego can be an integral part of determining an NPC's alignment/attitude. I personally do not think that alignment should be cast out in an Eberron campaign, because spells such as Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law can easily be used to confuse the issue for players, which only enhances the Noir feel of the setting.
Pinky's brain 04-30-05, 03:53 AM	Um, look up the definitions for alignment in the players handbook. A Neutral Evil alignment says that they do "whatever she can get away with. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convienience."Yes, she does not stop at evil acts ... that is what makes her evil. Doing detect evil on a shopkeeper however wont tell you he is "greedy and self absorbed". That is just an average person/shopkeeper ... and that is neutral.
Kintara 04-30-05, 03:58 AM	It's true that callousness and a willingness to violate the rights of others for personal gain is closer to Evil than a persons Ego, but consider where these ideas/ideals might stem from: the Ego. Being callous towards another can come from a superiority complex or a feeling of inhumanity towards others. A willingness to violate the rights of others can easily come from a sense of desperation or an overwhelming need to serve his personal/familial needs, both of which could easily result from a sense of pride; again, possibly stemming from ego. Ego can easily be used to argue an Evil alignment, but I am not saying it is exclusive to that part of the alignment spectrum. I am just saying that it CAN be Evil, and that Ego can be an integral part of determining an NPC's alignment/attitude. I personally do not think that alignment should be cast out in an Eberron campaign, because spells such as Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law can easily be used to confuse the issue for players, which only enhances the Noir feel of the setting.I think you're proving my point. Ego is one step removed from the real moral issue. Ego is more a tragic flaw (if that) than an Evil in itself.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 04-30-05, 03:40 PM	Remember that EVIL and GOOD are Universal Forces. The individual character's perception and belief does NOT impact how magic is going to work. He may be Raised to think all silver flamers are Evil, but his Detect Evil sense is never going to 'go off' on them unless they actually are, because it follows the universal laws, not his own beliefs. The paladin and the clerics are tools of higher powers, and Evil and Good are some of those powers. The characters do NOT determine what is Evil, and what is Good. Those are already laid out in the game. It could be perfectly acceptable and laudable to cheerfully torture your enemies and drag them around by their innards, and you would gain the admiration and respect of your friends for doing such things...but it's still an Evil act, because there are greater forces at work that say so. Evil is a subtype, like Flame, Water, Earth, etc. It's elemental. Just like your character can't change the definition of what Flame is, he can't change the definition of what Evil and Good are...they are set by stronger forces. Eberron has some very substantial recommendations for playing with the reality of alignments. Reread them. The people who can actually detect good and evil are people who are AWARE of forces beyond human understanding. They truly understand that there is a battle for souls going on...they can see it every time that Detect lights people up, or a Know ALignment shows them the sides people have picked. Having that ability in today's world...just imagine if you suddenly were confronted with the knowledge of what actually is Evil and Good, and the fact that there Really, Truly, is good and evil in existence. ANd people get to choose. And that demons and angels are warring over the fates of your souls, and doing all they can to keep people to their paths... You don't have FAITH in what's happening. You KNOW it's happening. It's part of your reality, from the moment you wake up, to the moment you wake up again. And nobody else will really, truly believe you, because they can't Detect what you can. And they go on about their plain, mundane lives, thinking you are crazy about all the little evils they do that they justify and shrug off and don't even know they are doing... That's what being a paladin or priest in Eberron would be like. Unless you can See the big picture, you don't give a flying (*&(*& about it. You are completely self-absorbed, and do what you want for your own reasons and your own justifications. You go thru life with spiritual blinkers on, and maybe you cleave to the Good, and maybe you don't, but you don't waste time thinking about it. I see paladins and clerics in Eberron like born-again preachers and the like in our world...except, the paladins are indeed right. But like such zealots trying to tell me how to live my life, I gaff them off and set my own standards. And the Evil guys? They just subtly encourage all of us in materialism, greed, hedonism, decadence, taking religion casually, etc etc. Greed is good for you, after all. Isn't it? The Paladin Knows otherwise...but who wouldn't want to believe it? i sure would. And I made a lot of money off that insider trading, too, and nobody got hurt...it MUST be good, if you do it properly. ==Aelryinth First off, I never said the way I handle things is Core D&D. It is admittedly a house rule, but one that better reflects Good and Evil. Take the current Israel/Palestine conflict for example. To a Palestinian, an Israeli may well be evil. However, to the Palestinian in question, the cause of Palestine is good, and therefore anyone who works against it is Evil (namely, all Israelis), while all who help it are Good. In D&D terms, there could be a large ammount of Cyran Warforged who see themselves as Good because they fought for Cyre, and sees any veteran of Cyre as also Good, while anyone who is Brelish is inherantly evil. Now say there's a Cyran Warforged with such a philosophy that meets some other Cyran veterans who have no such philosophy. They eventually move to the High Walls district of Sharn and lead "guerilla raids" on "high-ranking Brelish officials". In reality, they are normal (if obscenely wealthy) citizens of Sharn, and the other veterans were little more than common thieves before they fought in the war and are now extraordinary thieves thanks to their combat experience. One day on one such raid, the warforged in question is caught. When the charges are read off, he finds out that the dozens of people he had helped to kill and steal from were really just normal citizens, and that his "friends" had decieved him horribly. His entire idea of Good and Evil would be under a severe test. Good and Evil (along with Law and Chaos) are not Universal Forces in my games. Rather, Good and Evil are entirely based on a character-by-character perception, just like in real life everyone has a different idea of what it is to be "good" or "evil". After all, with corrupt clerics and events like the purge of the lycanthropes in the Eberron setting, clearly the religious elite AREN'T privy to some secret truth above it all. Thousands of paladins of the Silver Flame were needed to purge the lycanthropes, but not all lycanthropes are evil... NOTHING in Eberron is "always good" or "always evil". And yet they just went on smiting because at the time, to those paladins, Lycanthrope=Evil, and they showed up as such. And with the description of the followers of cults like The Blood of Vol, it's entirely possible to have a Lawful Good paladin of the Blood of Vol in the Order of the Emerald Claw since they feel the OTHER gods are evil for imposing the injustice of death on the races! Eberron, in my humble opinion, cannot be effectively run with an Objective alignment system. Nothng is that cut-and-dried. Subjective is the way to go. This does, however, mean that I spend a certain ammount of "warm up" time every few sessions getting at what "good" and "evil" means to my player's character's. Anything else and I would spend twice the time in mediating disputes about alignment in game and possibly ruin the feel of the game. Communication and mature players are needed to work with this.
deClench 04-30-05, 06:07 PM	I have to agree with those who have expressed a dislike for objective alignments. I find that they lend themselves more to a hack-n-slash and away from the style of play I enjoy: a more ambiguous and gray model of play where opinions of a person are based on that person's actions. I am going to try to dispose of the obective alignments in future campaigns. I believe that it will force players to take more consideration in their actions: i.e. it may no longer be so easy to simply cut-down the helpless antagonist that has been harassing the party. This will in part be accomplished by eradicating the Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos spells. If you want to determine the intention of everyone, then use Sense Motive or... gasp... the player can determine for self by the actions demonstrated and live with the consequences of their own reactions. If I had my way, I get rid of most Divination magic (at least that based on either subjective material or meta-gaming material), but that's a different thread. That ambiguousness is at the heart of my Eberron.
aelryinth 04-30-05, 06:40 PM	I like objective alignments tremendously. It is, to me, the core of being in a magical world. Without alignments, there is indeed only the personal perspective and weighing of your own beliefs. With it, you now are confronted by a vast balance of truly cosmic forces, the average person has utterly no clue of what exists. Like your warforged example above: He's doing Evil acts, and he thinks that because he's a Cyran they are good acts. No. There IS a higher scale...but being unaware of it, he does what he does. Now, you introduce the morality conflict...suddenly he is exposed to the higher scale! ANd yet, without it, he could simply shrug off the people he killed as members of the enemy, civilians or no. He doesn't see killing them as evil...they support, feed, clothe, and gear up the enemy warriors, it's entirely justifiable to remove them as it is the supply chain of an enemy. As for Palestine and Israel...what the peoples of both sides see as 'Good' Probably doesn't come into why they are fighting at all. "Rightness" might, but Good? The highest values of both religions are not much in evidence on either side of the equation. Which to me says that both parties are ignoring morals in lieu of ethics and justification. Like the Crusades, there's nothing holy about what's going on...it's men fighting men for any reason they can cling to. And way back, mentioning the Prophecy...this is a fine example of a Law/Chaos conflict, not a good/evil one. The Prophecy is delightfully amoral and uncaring. It exemplifies the workings of Fate, and so predestiny and Law, perfectly. Defying the Prophecy is now about personal choice, freedom, individualism, and independence from Fate. Sounds like Chaos to me. If you see messing with the Prophecy as messing with the natural order, then of course that would be bad. If you see leaving free of some stupid fate a dragon dead millions of years ago set into motion to make all living things puppets, then messing with the Prophecy is a moral obligation to liberate everything that lives. Right and Wrong don't equate to Good and Evil...Right and Wrong equate to viewpoints. Good and Evil stand on their own in D@D. Right and Wrong shift with the perceiver. ==Aelryinth
deClench 04-30-05, 06:57 PM	Now, you introduce the morality conflict...suddenly he is exposed to the higher scale! ANd yet, without it, he could simply shrug off the people he killed as members of the enemy, civilians or no. He doesn't see killing them as evil...they support, feed, clothe, and gear up the enemy warriors, it's entirely justifiable to remove them as it is the supply chain of an enemy. Yes, the PC should act in a way consistent with the player's concept... and then when they do something either ambiguously or flagrantly in opposition to others they should suffer the consequences. If they break the law of Sharn, they should be arrested (or the attempt should be made). If they run afoul of the Silver Flame, then the church should refuse solace and potentially send out the harriers for grievous offenses. If they do bad for the overall good, then it becomes an excercise for the DM to decide how the populace reacts: start rolling those diplomacy checks!
stone_dog 05-01-05, 02:21 AM	Auras radiate at various strengths, so it should be able to tell the difference between a cheat and a murderer quite easily when using detect evil. Aura power is completely dependant on the hit dice or character level of the creature Detect X is cast on. Your average selfish inkeeper and your average murdering serial rapist sociopath demon cultist who still has the blood of a strangled baby on his hands both all register as 'faint' evils so long as they are under ten levels of... say, commoner. I have only paid much attention to alignments when I was running Planescape and ONLY because Planescape was fixed on the theme of the power of belief. In anything else? Alignment is a waste of my time and energy. In the end, it doesn't make one bit of difference if the Cardinal is Good and misguided or Evil and honorable. He is trying to get the queen discredited in court and as chivalrous servants of the Crown we cannot allow such a scandal! "You know I don't believe there's any such thing as pure evil." "Yes there is. Its festering up north in a silver spike your friends drove into the trunk of a sapling that's the son of a god." -From the Black Company book "Shadow Games" That is the only sort of evil I am interested in detecting. Pure, tangible supernatural evil. Any mere mortal ambitions and philosophies can be "detected" the old fashioned ways. Paying attention, investigating and spying.
Kintara 05-01-05, 02:41 AM	Sometimes I think people are a bit too hung up on equating Good with Right. It's an easy assumption to make: it's easy to feel that "Good" is just the heavy objective hand of moralistic Rightness that must be obeyed. But they're just alignments. Good is part philosophy and part cosmic force. It doesn't represent "God." If it did, then Good and Right really would be the same, but that doesn't need to be true. In fact, I think most Eberron players assume otherwise. What alignments really boil down to in Eberron is the magical equivalent of a good "sizing up." I don't find it particularly mood breaking for the heroes to size someone up magically.
poeticyde 05-05-05, 01:31 PM	In my Eberron campaign, I have broken the confidence my experienced gamers once had in Detect Evil/Good/Law/Chaos. There is, for example, one NPC who has consistantly helped the characters, but who radiates Evil when detect is cast. There was another NPC who radiated good, and yet was trying actively to get members of the party killed. I just really push the fact that someone being good or evil does not necessarily they are going to be good or evil to *you*. After this week's game, I think I have finally broken them...they ran into a Warforged character that has no memory. When trying to figure out his motives, one player says to another: "We don't we Detect Evil?" to which the cleric replies "Why bother?" :D God, I love Eberron.