Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thecosmicgoose 11-16-05, 04:22 AM	Edit: After thinking it over, i refined my question regarding Eberrons technology level. its clear that Eberon has achived a level of development comparable to our own. and in someways surpasses it. i mean, we havent figured out how to teleport people, yet. but the thing thats stumping me is this: how common are these magical technologies? the setting book never really tells you what kinds of magic you can find at the diffrent social and econimic levels. or if it does, i completely missed it. So, to sumerize: what kinds of, and how many magical devices and services could you find at a... Thorp Hamlet Village small town Large Town City Metropolice
LazarusX 11-16-05, 04:40 AM	Well, that's really a hard question to hit 100%. Instead, I'll just give you some examples of magi-tech and maybe you'll get more of a feel of how the world has melded the 2 concepts. Warforged = A complete mixture of arcane magic and technology. You have the creation forges...which had to have been engineered. Magic did not create the forge itself, nor the design for the warforged. Lightning Rail = You have the elemental, sure. But you also have the conductor stones(magnets basically). So, once again; you have engineering shaking hands with magic. *************************** Honestly, I'd say Eberron's tech level is equal to Earth's, towards Van Helsing's time. It's just that some things have blended with magic, instead of electricity or hydraulics.
DoveArrow 11-16-05, 05:29 PM	For the most part, the elements of high magic in Eberron are restricted to the larger cities and metropoli, with the smaller thorps, hamlets, and towns having normal levels of D&D magic. Meanwhile, even in the larger cities, the average level of magic is typically no higher than 3rd or 4th level spells. There are a few exceptions to these rules, of course (the lightning rail being the most prominent), but for the most part, you can use the rules in the DMG for determining the level of magic in a particular town. As far as making adjustments are concerned, the only adjustment that you really need to make to your game is in regards to the caster level of magic items. 9th level is pretty much the upper limit on caster level for most items. That's not to say that you can't find items with higher caster levels. Relics from the Dhakaani and Xen'drik Empires, for example, may be found in ancient temples, and a few of them may even be sold at the auction house in Sharn. Meanwhile, there are also a few higher level casters lurking about that could provide items for the PCs. Check out Keith's Masters of Magic Dragonshard (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050725a) for a list of some of these high level NPCs. As far as magical services are concerned, take a look at the Twelve Houses in the Organizations section of the Eberron Campaign Setting. That should give you a general idea about who provides what in the world of Eberron. I wish you luck with your game. Take care.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 11-16-05, 07:32 PM	Well, that's really a hard question to hit 100%. Instead, I'll just give you some examples of magi-tech and maybe you'll get more of a feel of how the world has melded the 2 concepts. Warforged = A complete mixture of arcane magic and technology. You have the creation forges...which had to have been engineered. Magic did not create the forge itself, nor the design for the warforged. Lightning Rail = You have the elemental, sure. But you also have the conductor stones(magnets basically). So, once again; you have engineering shaking hands with magic. *************************** Honestly, I'd say Eberron's tech level is equal to Earth's, towards Van Helsing's time. It's just that some things have blended with magic, instead of electricity or hydraulics. Where did you get the idea that warforged were mechanical in any way? Creation forges are eldritch machines, they are not forges in the traditional sense. Cannith artificers don't build the warforged, the design is created though the magic in the schemas that the creation forges use. That is why warforged are nearly all alike, and why they have unexplainable characteristics (such as a sense of taste but no need to feed). Where you got the idea that conductor stones are magnets I'll never know. Unless Eberronians have discovered room temperature super conductors (something we are not even close to), there is no way a train can balance on a line of magnets. Conductor stones appear in the ECS in the magical items section, there is nothing mundane about them. In general, the tech level of Eberron is closer to the renaissance period, with innovative works existing but not being mass produced. The Lightning Rail and airships are amazing creations, but they are the peak of technology, not the rule. In the major cities of the Five Nations, spells in the lower levels (0-3ish) will be more readily available than other settings, and in more use. Higher level magic is much harder to come by, and it can't replicate everything in our own society.
DoveArrow 11-17-05, 10:33 AM	Where did you get the idea that warforged were mechanical in any way? Creation forges are eldritch machines, they are not forges in the traditional sense. Cannith artificers don't build the warforged, the design is created though the magic in the schemas that the creation forges use. That is why warforged are nearly all alike, and why they have unexplainable characteristics (such as a sense of taste but no need to feed). Where you got the idea that conductor stones are magnets I'll never know. Unless Eberronians have discovered room temperature super conductors (something we are not even close to), there is no way a train can balance on a line of magnets. Conductor stones appear in the ECS in the magical items section, there is nothing mundane about them. In general, the tech level of Eberron is closer to the renaissance period, with innovative works existing but not being mass produced. The Lightning Rail and airships are amazing creations, but they are the peak of technology, not the rule. In the major cities of the Five Nations, spells in the lower levels (0-3ish) will be more readily available than other settings, and in more use. Higher level magic is much harder to come by, and it can't replicate everything in our own society. Warforged are living constructs. While not technically mechanical (they don't have gears and pistons, and such), they're the closest magic equivalent to a cyborg, having both living and nonliving parts, we've seen so far. Granted, it's not an exact fit, but when you're comparing magic and technology, what is? Meanwhile, the magnet comparison isn't too far off. There is actually a rail line in Japan (I forget what it's called) that rides on a magnetic field. Granted, it's only a few millimeters off the ground as opposed to several feet, but again, it's close enough to make an apt comparison. Meanwhile, there are things that are (or at least were) mass produced in Eberron. The warforged are a fine example of that. Finally, just so you know, the Rennaissance period actually saw the beginnings of mass production. Ship pulleys, for example, were the first items to be created solely using water wheel driven machines. Meanwhile, the same machines were used to hammer cloth into pulp which could then be used to make paper, they were used to crush wheat for use in making bread, and they were used to saw and shape wood to be used for furniture. Those last few examples aren't exactly examples of mass production as we know it today. However, the production of goods increased dramatically thanks to water driven machines. The reason we think of mass production having come out of the Industrial Revolution is because the process was refined during that era. Later.
DragonWatcher 11-17-05, 11:21 AM	Warforged are living constructs. While not technically mechanical (they don't have gears and pistons, and such), they're the closest magic equivalent to a cyborg, having both living and nonliving parts, we've seen so far. Granted, it's not an exact fit, but when you're comparing magic and technology, what is? Meanwhile, the magnet comparison isn't too far off. There is actually a rail line in Japan (I forget what it's called) that rides on a magnetic field. Granted, it's only a few millimeters off the ground as opposed to several feet, but again, it's close enough to make an apt comparison. Meanwhile, there are things that are (or at least were) mass produced in Eberron. The warforged are a fine example of that. Finally, just so you know, the Rennaissance period actually saw the beginnings of mass production. Ship pulleys, for example, were the first items to be created solely using water wheel driven machines. Meanwhile, the same machines were used to hammer cloth into pulp which could then be used to make paper, they were used to crush wheat for use in making bread, and they were used to saw and shape wood to be used for furniture. Those last few examples aren't exactly examples of mass production as we know it today. However, the production of goods increased dramatically thanks to water driven machines. The reason we think of mass production having come out of the Industrial Revolution is because the process was refined during that era. Later. DA, I have to agree with Trolls here, and mainly in an attempt to help avoid confusion. There seems to be a common misconception out there (still) that Eberron is a place of steampunk technology, or even magitech. This is simply not true. Warforged are not robots or cyborgs, yeah, it's kinda close (on the surface), but they're not the same. They don't run on electricity, or any other power souce (hell, they don't even have to eat), and they certainly can't just swap body parts or rebuild themselves (repair yes, but not rebuild). Additionally, they differ from other constructs in that they are not built first, then given a semblance of life. They are wholly created in the creation forges... body and all. It has been said before, but it's worth noting again. Eberron uses magic IN PLACE of technology, not to power technology (or even along side of it for the most part). Everbright lanterns can be found in almost every town and village, but it's not like they're magical lightbulbs, even though they do fill that role. There's no technological component to them. Conductor stones are not magnets (and DA, the train that you're talking about does exist, but it doesn't completely free-float above the track, if it did it would derail. It wraps around the track, so while it "levitates" above the magnetic rail, it's still guided by the track itself. Very different from the Lightning Rail). I believe that this is part of the reason that certain "technology" doesn't exist in Eberron, even though it's inferior to some of the magical wonders. There are no physicists that have studied the laws of gravity and wind resistance to make parachutes. There are no chemists that have made blackpowder, and even if you want blackpowder there are no engineers who have figured out how to put it in a tube behind a led pellet in such a way that we have firearms. I'm not saying that these things can't be houseruled, but as it stands, they don't exist. That's the difference. It's really about the mentality. Why study physics when you KNOW that a levitation spell works? Why risk combining sulfer and other dangerous ingredients to make blackpowder when you know that a fireball spell works? Tech in Eberron is very low. However, the magical wonders in Eberron more than make up for it. :)
DoveArrow 11-17-05, 12:22 PM	DA, I have to agree with Trolls here, and mainly in an attempt to help avoid confusion. There seems to be a common misconception out there (still) that Eberron is a place of steampunk technology, or even magitech. This is simply not true. Warforged are not robots or cyborgs, yeah, it's kinda close (on the surface), but they're not the same. They don't run on electricity, or any other power souce (hell, they don't even have to eat), and they certainly can't just swap body parts or rebuild themselves (repair yes, but not rebuild). Additionally, they differ from other constructs in that they are not built first, then given a semblance of life. They are wholly created in the creation forges... body and all. It has been said before, but it's worth noting again. Eberron uses magic IN PLACE of technology, not to power technology (or even along side of it for the most part). Everbright lanterns can be found in almost every town and village, but it's not like they're magical lightbulbs, even though they do fill that role. There's no technological component to them. Conductor stones are not magnets (and DA, the train that you're talking about does exist, but it doesn't completely free-float above the track, if it did it would derail. It wraps around the track, so while it "levitates" above the magnetic rail, it's still guided by the track itself. Very different from the Lightning Rail). I believe that this is part of the reason that certain "technology" doesn't exist in Eberron, even though it's inferior to some of the magical wonders. There are no physicists that have studied the laws of gravity and wind resistance to make parachutes. There are no chemists that have made blackpowder, and even if you want blackpowder there are no engineers who have figured out how to put it in a tube behind a led pellet in such a way that we have firearms. I'm not saying that these things can't be houseruled, but as it stands, they don't exist. That's the difference. It's really about the mentality. Why study physics when you KNOW that a levitation spell works? Why risk combining sulfer and other dangerous ingredients to make blackpowder when you know that a fireball spell works? Tech in Eberron is very low. However, the magical wonders in Eberron more than make up for it. :) I understand the disagreement, and I agree that magic and technology are completely different things and shouldn't be confused. However, we don't have magic in our real world society, and examples from science and technology are our closest analogies. Granted, those analogies aren't always exact, but how often are analogies exact? Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? What qualities do human beings really have with something so abstract as a summer's day? My point is, don't be too critical of the magic/technology comparison. It's the closest real world equivalent that we've got.
DragonWatcher 11-17-05, 04:14 PM	Fair enough, but I'm just afraid that allowing the comparison to go too far makes things confusing where they would otherwise not be. (BTW... DA, I have to say that I've debated with you and against you, and it's always a fun, fair debate. Kudos! :))
DoveArrow 11-17-05, 04:37 PM	Fair enough, but I'm just afraid that allowing the comparison to go too far makes things confusing where they would otherwise not be. (BTW... DA, I have to say that I've debated with you and against you, and it's always a fun, fair debate. Kudos! :)) Well I'm glad. Sometimes things get a little too close to home and I'm not as calm as I'd like to be, but I try to be fair most of the time. By the way, most people call me Dove.
Siran Dunmorgan 11-17-05, 04:49 PM	I understand the disagreement, and I agree that magic and technology are completely different things and shouldn't be confused. However, we don't have magic in our real world society, and examples from science and technology are our closest analogies. Granted, those analogies aren't always exact, but how often are analogies exact? Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? What qualities do human beings really have with something so abstract as a summer's day? My point is, don't be too critical of the magic/technology comparison. It's the closest real world equivalent that we've got. Re-posted from the Life's Little Conveniences (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530517) thread, since it's actually more relvant here: We're talking about technology as portrayed in Eberron: we only assume that there are things that parallel what we have in the real world, when in fact we have no real idea what the basis actually is for an Eberron technology. We can only guess at what they can do, because we have no basis for comparison. They have access to an array of materials and techniques of which we have only the most vague notion—consider darkweave, for example. Do you know where the strands of darkness come from that are used in its fabrication? For us, darkness is a relative abscence of light. All of our modern technology, e.g., electronics, is predicated on that fact. In Eberron, darkness is a substantive thing in its own right, and you can buy pieces of it at the corner drugstore, e.g. Mabar crystals sold at magical supply shops. Do you have any clue what the analogue of the photoelectric effect is in a world where darkness is something in its own right? I know I don't. The photoelectric effect was the kick-start for the theories that became modern electronics... I have no idea how this would work in Eberron, given that the concept of a positively-charged 'hole' in a semiconducting medium would be shot to Khyber by the existence of substantive darkness. And that's just darkness, where we know from the cosmology that shadow is an entirely separate substance from either light or dark. How about a world where fire is literally elemental, i.e., the physical world is actually made up of only four elements, and you make iron by adding fire to earth in certain proportions, rather than extracting elemental iron from the rock? Where glass is made from sand because sand combines earth and water (remember: it's found by the seashore!). Under the influence of air and fire, it becomes watery earth, i.e. glass. Can you tell me what the ramifications are of this? I certainly can't tell you. We already know—from the falling rules—that Newton's laws don't strictly apply in Dungeons & Dragons settings, because falling bodies do not accelerate past a limit. Do you think that changes what can be done with technology? I do. This changes all kinds of things, starting with the way catapults work to whether or how the moons are kept in orbit if the acceleration due to gravity levels off the way it's described in the falling rules. What we do with precision machining, folks in Eberron do by hand: if you want a perfect fit between those cabinet joints, it takes a master craftsman to intuitvely cut the dovetails: to do it over and over with less qualified craftmen requires the presence of a magewright or bard enhancing their skills with magecraft or similar magic. They don't make machines to make products better: they make magic to make people better, who in turn produce better products, or the same products faster. With respect to the technological development of the Empire of Dhakaan, we can guess that the goblins developed a metallurgical technology very different from ours, based on smiths working in concert with bards and their songs. The legendary artifacts of the early Dhakaani Empire were, for this reason, produced primarily by bards, or experts working in conjunction with bards, frequently also taking the Exceptional, Extrordinary, and Legendary Artisan feats, as well as Music of Making: note that the effect of this latter feat stacks with the normal bardic inspire confidence class feature. So an improvement in technology, to the Dhakaani, meant an improvement in the way their individual craftsmen worked. Their 'industrial technology' might include herbs or incenses designed to enhance the intelligence of their craftsmen, or better, more potent songs of Making, rather than actual changes to the tools they use, or the techniques themselves. Further, it's quite possible that the Dhakaani never developed advanced siege engines or firearms because these things don't actually work in Eberron. By the falling rules—again—things don't accelerate past a certain point, which limits the usefulness of firearms tremendously, if they're subject to this effect. You get more damage under such conditions by heaving a bigger rock, rather than a smaller, faster rock. This means that your siege corps consists of giants (or ogres), because they can throw bigger rocks than you, and your 'siege technology' consists of better, more effective control songs for your bards to use on the simpleton hill giants and ogres. —Siran Dunmorgan