Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jonthegm 09-23-04, 04:55 PM	I have a small problem. I have an extremely varied group that just can't seem to get into the feel of Eberron. Here's the rundown on their personalities, and then I'll discuss what the main problems are: 1) Warforged Paladin - Powergamer, Will walk out if UA is added. 2) Warforged Soulknife - Terrible RPer, Follower 3) Human Druid - Too quiet, phenomenal roleplayer 4) Human Artificer - Too easily discouraged, impatient, disruptive while not directly engaged. 5) Elven Psychic Warrior - The Moralless wonder, new to the group, quiet. Here's my main problems: 1 & 2 are a duo, they're both unwilling to get into the setting background at all... they live blithely unaware of the setting's color, and have no plans on rectifying that. They're also TERRIBLE metagamers. 3 is good, but she's too quiet, and easily cowed by 1 & 2. Doesn't ask me enough questions. Has at least read about her country of origin in the ECS. 4 is fatalistic and a boor. After an initial effort in the first two sessions, he's settled down into *****ing about how he got stuck being the cleric again. 5 is too new to tell yet, but he at least followed when I was explaining how the Elves worked in Eberron. The DM (me) has a hard time finding players, and has been close friends with all but #5 for a long time. I try to describe as much as possible and give them enough leeway to help them get into the setting (I modified the "what you know" article to allow untrained checks about things that strike close to home, with a +5 DC modifier for anything that isn't COMMON COMMON knowledge, I treat it as sort of... artificial character history). However, they still play it as a simple D&D game, where everything is just setting up for the next dungeon crawl... So my main question is... How can I inject more of the pulp and noir feel into the game without berating my players? Any general advice for dealing with these archetypes outlined above? Am I at fault (and how can I fix it)? Any other comments that you're just burning to make, and can't find an appropriate thread about DMing to post them in? Have you dealt with similar problems?
m15a 09-23-04, 05:19 PM	well, you could resist from giving then combat opportunities, focusing on roleplaying (while allowing skill checks). but more likely than not they ones not interested in roleplaying will just be bored . . . but, you know, you can only push people so much. give a little extra attention to the ones that do like roleplaying. but you'll probably end up either boring the others or giving in. but it's worth a shot.
xcorvis 09-23-04, 05:20 PM	Sounds like you've got a hack and slash group and you're trying to do more than that. If you hadn't just started, I would've recommended that you start a new game and lay out all of your expectations from the start. You could start by asking 1 & 2 straight up to try to get more into character and maybe take things a little more seriously. They might listen. Also, change every monster you throw at them. Give your goblins spider climb, and your ogres a sonic roar attack. Make their metagaming knowledge useless. Also, since they're both warforged, throw some prejudice at them. They can't fight their way out of that one... #3 needs some confidence. Maybe center a plot point around her? Bring her character to the front so the player can follow. If she starts to lead, others may start to follow. Kill #4's character and tell him to make a new one that he's actually interested in. Let him borrow the book for a bit to explore some possibilites. Have an NPC cleric follow the party around. However, in my experience, a fatalistic and frustrated gamer tends to be that way no matter what happens. #5: you didn't mention any specific problems with him, but since you called him "the Moralless wonder" I expect he plays Chaotic Stupid characters. Hit him with the law. Make his actions have reprocussions. If he kills someone in cold blood, have 30 constables break down his door in the inn. Make him a wanted man. He may mend his ways, or the party may turn him in for the reward. Eventually the player might learn the lesson. In the end tho, there's only so much you can do to get people to play the way you want to. If they're not interested and not willing, there's not a lot you can do. You might consider widening your circle of gaming friends.
Zagumus 09-23-04, 06:32 PM	Introduct UA, you do all the work and deside what the setting is let #1 walk maybe #2 will follow. This may seem harsh but, from my point of view, the DM does most of the work on the world and adventure, so it is your (DM's) decision what will be included. That being said I not a big fan of UA and agree you should not include it (depending on which rules you are speaking of). That leaves you with 3 people (4 if #2 decides to stay) that should get along pretty well and have a great time rping. You can also stop rewarding XP for killing thing and only reward XP for rping but that is a lot more like punishing and less like encouraging. Lastly give in and play normal D&D, just don't run the game make #1 do it.
SirLoin 09-23-04, 06:50 PM	Sit the quiet players closer to you at the table. Give them a reason to roleplay and be interactive, confront them with situations where they have to interact and make choices through roleplaying not dice rolling. Metagamers suck & ruin the fun for others. I agree with the above post about modifying the monsters.
ImmortalBlueMage 09-23-04, 07:00 PM	Sounds to me like the game would run much smoother without #1 and #2... Not that I'm making such a suggestion, I know that it's almost impossible to really kick someone out of a DnD group, no matter how much it's suggested, but I thought it was an observation that needed to be voiced...
WarlockDa 09-23-04, 07:00 PM	Do what I did, start awarding the vast majority of the XP based on roleplaying. If a PC carries on a conversation with an NPC instead of merely roling the dice and asking if they got some info,...give them a bonus. Make them RP every single thing they do. The score a hit in combat, make the describe the move in detail, if not minimize the XP. The ones in it for the 'kill' are going to do what it takes to get the next level.
Saurenda 09-23-04, 08:13 PM	If it were me I would honestly dump one and two , unless they were your good friends. If not, just tell them there are other settings they can play if they wanna metagame. That leaves 3 characters, which is enough to run a good campaign. The Druid and the Artificer can get along well and encourage each other. The phyic warrior will see more action and thus come out of her shell. at least that is the way I see thing will go once one and two are gone.
Gurv 09-23-04, 09:44 PM	I only have one question. How long have you been DMing my game group without my knowledge? I've been trying to deal with similar issues in my own group. Unfortunately, they've been gaming for a very long time, not always with me as the DM, so I sometimes feel like I have to start over every time... First of all, I suggest having #1 and #2 read this thread. They obviously have no idea that there is anything wrong with the way they game (and there wouldn't be, if you were running a hack-and-slash). I strongly agree with what was said about changing things up to prevent them from using their metagame knowledge. Having players who all know the MM inside and out, I've learned to stop using it that way. Recently they fought hobgoblins...except that I described them as scaly, gave them the ability to shape change into humans, and called them the 'Grenar'. No extra work, but added flavor and kept them guessing. As far as making them role-play...I haven't quite figured that one out yet. I can't say to stop running combats or to not award them. That just makes them see you as an XP-Nazi and doesn't improve their roleplaying. If one is a paladin, run a plot around some religious theme, with the classic 'choose-between-good-and-<hack-and-slash>. Done right, the choice could become "role-play or lose your class abilities". A warforged soulknife is harder...try this plot I plan on hitting my group's changeling soulknife with: the quori find a way to drain his power away (a curse, some kind of eldritch machine, etc) and being immortal spirits from another dimension, they are EXCEEDINGLY hard to smash (interestingly in your case, your 'forged can't even go to Dal Quor psychically). Now, the soulknife is forced to deal with the quori via roleplaying...and if the paladin doesn't have issues with his pal working with evil outsiders....well, see "role-play or lose your class abilities" above. [Disclaimer : Before I'm called too harsh, change the psionic 'curse' to requiring a check to manifest his blade, and give the paladin a chance to work things out. The goal is roleplaying and anything is better than nothing]. Now, a good role-player who is quiet and overwhelmed by the others? Move the player closest to you and direct your attention to her. Don't overdo it by making her the center of attention too fast. Just have the NPCs talk to her first, since she is the best role-player. Although I say not to make her the center of attention, that doesn't mean she can't be critical to success. Perhaps having important NPCs that will -only- talk to her. Secretive fey, paranoid lycanthropes, whatever. Everyone knows that only they know how to defeat the quori (what?! its established cannon! ask anyone!). If #4 thinks his artificer is the party cleric, give his character to someone who recognizes how cool that class it. Or at least make him give the druid a wand of cure <whatever> wounds. If that doesn't work, drop one into the game, and give him a wand of repair <whatever> wounds to boot. As far as being fatalistic and a boor...let me know if you figure out a way to get rid of that kind of friend. If it works, I'll send you a check. Seriously, keep him busy with things that he can succeed at. Does he do locks and traps? Put them on every door, and unless he rolls a 3 or below, tell him he succeeded. Is he knowledge based? Call for checks even when you would be inclined to just give them the info...then just give them the info regardless of the roll. Do this for a few sessions, then ease off it slowly. The combination of staying busy and successful should keep him trying to be useful. #5 is your new best friend. Not because he is a moral less wonder, but because you have the best opportunity to shape him into what you want the rest to be. Move him closer to you at the table, and make him second only to #2 for roleplaying intent (yes, I noticed the pun. Unintentional.) If by moral less wonder you did mean "chaotic-stupid", I would normally be inclined to agree with hitting him with the law. But since you want to encourage him, don't. Hit the paladin with the law. Presumably, the PCs are doing some good things, so the only ones that should have issue with a highly chaotic person is a highly lawful group...like the paladin's church/order. Now the paladin (poor role-player) must role-play with the chaotic psychic warrior (quite gamer) to get him to tone it down. Two birds, one stone. Now I go for three: have the psychic warrior (#5) affected by the same curse thingy the soulknife (#2) is. That means that the quiet player has something to role-play about. Now, bringing it all together. Player #2 and Player #5 have a problem that they cannot deal with by killing it (and it affects more than just them). Only Player #3 can communicate with the elusive contacts they need to solve the problem. Player #1, who is a duo with #2 anyway, must role-play to prevent improper dealings with evil outsiders, while also roleplaying to keep a chaotic ally in check (and he's a paladin, so his metagame knowledge should tell him what will happen if he doesn't). #4 is still the lose cannon, because he's a SOB (a nice fat check!), but as I said, keep him busy and happy and then maybe give him a real role in the plot, like the eldritch machine that causes the curse. Now, I'm new to pulp noir (and enjoying every second of it!), so I can't write an essay about it. But its all about the feel of it. So I'd say take whatever parts of the above you like...and run it at the same time you run whatever adventures you already planned on running. That should achieve some sense of constant, impending doom. And since it doesn't affect #4, he won't feel defeated; rather, he becomes a selfless hero. And isn't that what its all about? Gurv "People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true, or fear to be true." -Wizard's First Rule
Otakkun 09-23-04, 10:40 PM	Well, if you've known all of them for years and can't do anything about getting a better gropu of people, you should start by showing this thread to them. Let them know what you really think of how they play and start from there.
Ch@pel 09-23-04, 10:41 PM	I've had similar problems with my group: Kalashtar Psion: My best friend and guitarist, good RPer Warforged Fighter: My girlfriend, great RPer Human Cleric: Guitarist's girlfriend, follower Changeling Rogue: Work friend, good RPer Gnome Artificer: Friend from another campaign Hobgoblin Monk: Friend of above work friend The source of my problems with this group is that ALL of them, including me are new to D&D and RPing in general. Some of them have done computer RPGs, but nothing like D&D. So its hard to get everyone involved in the setting, and none of them will buy anything other than the PHB. They definately aren't a hack and slash group; they all do a good amount of RPing. We differ in that you want to get away from a typical hack and slash D&D game, whereas I've never played or DMed one. Like everyone said already, if #1 and #2 aren't interested in anything other than powergaming, then seriously consider if you can live with that. If not, you'd definately be a lot happier playing with three people. If you can, try to take one week where you don't play a session with #1 and #2. Just don't invite them for one session. See if you like it better that way. Think about it, its less prep time for you, since its a smaller party. Also, you can get more into the story aspect of it, since you have less people to try to entertain. Finally, those quiet gamers might get more into it if #1 and #2 aren't around. If you really want to keep the group intact however, and you still want to get some good RPing/ storylines going on, just run the game that way. If #1 and #2 don't like it, well then there's nothing you can do about that. Thats the game you're running. If its possible, set up situations where the good RPers have to make major decisions that affect the upcoming battles. That way #1 and #2 still get their hack on, but the RPers are engaged. If you go this route, don't worry including 1 and 2 in the storyline, they just fight when the battles come. As for the guy complaining about his character, well I guess that is kinda your fault. (or whoever made him play the char) Always, always, always let a player design their own char if they want to. So what if the party has no "cleric"? (the guys playing an artificer anyway, did he read the class description??) Just plan your encounters accordingly and give out some of cure light wounds potions. If you're mostly interested in RPing anyway, who cares where all those potions come from? Once they see how useful a cleric can be, one of them may gladly step up when he/ she makes his next character. Or just pop a DMPC into their party. Better yet, let them run the character as a group. Thats a good tactic to get them all to work together. Remember, there is no minimum amount of players needed for D&D, as long as you have a DM. Solo PC games are great fun! And there is no right or wrong way to play; powergaming or RPing. Just run the game you want to, make sure it's entertaining enough for the people who actually want to play it and you're good to go.
jonthegm 09-23-04, 10:50 PM	Hmm... ok, well, since you've all been REALLY helpful (Not sarcasm, but I realize it could be read as sarcasm, so I'm insulting your intelligence instead) I'm gonna see if I can shed some more light and maybe shake some of the scragglers up into commenting. For 1&2, I've played with them in a Cyberpunk-Hero setting and a Champions setting, so I'm not sure why they can't roleplay all of a sudden. Just because #2 is a terrible roleplayer doesn't mean he doesn't ever try... As for #4, well, yes, he had a lot of help making his character (and as a former newbie to the HERO system, I've seen how much your character can change when you have really experienced people helping you choose stats...) so I can see that maybe he's getting "buyer's remorse" in not having more of a stake in creating his character. Next time, I'll make him do it all on his own, only answering questions, not actually doing any of the paperwork... For those of you who suggest mucking with the monsters... You've pushed me over the edge. Here's next week's sketchy plan, which picks up at the beginning of Part 2 of Shadows of the Last War... 1) move the table around. We're dealing with a rather small table (due to having to play in an apartment), so I think I'm just going to shuffle a bit... 2) On the train ride, I'll give them a red-herring faux villian to heckle them for a little while, perhaps try to convince them that all goblinkin are evil... 3) When the goblins come to attack the caravan, they'll have light crossbows and the far and precise shot feats. Also, there will be 4 of them instead of 3, and two bugbears with scythes. Since the Forgotten Forge was a cramped run, there wasn't a lot of time for them to figure out that they need to have ranged weapons... which shall be exploited mercilessly... 3) The Bloody Market == Roleplay up the yinyang. 4) Meeting Failin... more roleplay 5) Failin needs help... A simple fight, I think I'll add another bugbear to the two that there already are.... this isn't meant to be a tough fight anyway, so they'll get off light... 6) More roleplay w/ Failin... That should be a 4 hour session or so... I'm not sure... that's the bare minimum I think I'm gonna get through... Thoughts? Ideas?
Ardent 09-24-04, 10:59 AM	Well, this is more or less the breakdown for my group when I took over GMing for them. I spent a lot of time struggling for a balance between interaction and action and found that I was usually boring half of the group. So I stepped out on a limb one session and took all the dice, put them in a bag and told them they're going to have to describe everything they wanted to do to me and I'd tell them how it played out. No dice were rolled for the entire eight hour session, we made it through two encounters (we normally do between five and eight) and nobody got disinterested. After a few more sessions handled that way, dice started creeping back in and the emphasis on chatting declined a bit and session pace increased. Last time I ran a session we'd managed six encounters, only two of which devolved into combat. I'm pretty happy...I haven't changed the nature of my players (they still do what they're predicated to do) but I have changed the way they approach d20 games. #1 & 2 are a package pair which means you can use peer pressure to influence them. Use #2 to work on #1 for you. Out of curiosity, which UA rule variant did #1 so vehemently object to? I suspect it's something nefarious like the prestige variants or spellcasting by points that would throw off his metagaming. #3 will get involved once she realises that she doesn't have to use her dice to express herself. My role-players really stepped up and shined when I took the dice away. Suddenly it wasn't about what the dice said, but what they said. #4 has a superiority-inferiority complex. I know, because I was the player in his position before I started GMing. I "always got stuck playing the Cleric." Difference is, I like playing the Cleric. Direct him to CharOp for some strong Cleric builds and ideas, and remind him that he doesn't have to be a back row bumbler. #5 is going to be the glue that binds a newly invigorated group together. Really work him for ideas and thoughts. Make sure he always contributes his opinions and feelings after a session and try to include some of his ideas in your session plans. If he can get into things, he'll bring everyone along with his enthusiasm because he's an unknown quantity. Good luck with them...and remember there's nothing wrong with taking breaks during a session. Especially Mountain Dew breaks.
jonthegm 09-24-04, 11:33 AM	Oh yeah, the UA thing I wanted to implement was the Vit/Wounds thing. #1's anti that because he claims "If I wanted to play HEROsystem, I'm already in a campaign with that..."
Doctor X 09-24-04, 02:22 PM	As for UA... One player shouldn't be making all the decisions. You should show the variants you want to use to each of your players, and see what they think as a whole. It could very well be that everyone but #1 would like to use some of these rules, in which case, you should use them. If #1 has a problem, then let him deal with it. If he wants to be petty and walk out of the game, let him... something tells me he probably wouldn't, though... Most people who threaten to quit over rules are just bluffing. However... I think one of the best ways to convey the Eberron feel is through combat, not just roleplaying. This is more the DM's job than anyone else. You have to describe it all in an interesting way, from enemies' actions and appearances to the scene of the encounter. Make the enemies use Aid Another, flanking, grapples and so on to work together instead of simply having each one take turns hitting somebody. Never go easy on the PC's. With the utility of action points and so on, you generally won't have to worry about accidentaly killing one of the PC's. Try to knock one or two of them into negative HP once in a while. Since players can spend action points to stabilize their characters, there's much less risk of death involved... But when the fight is over, and some of the characters are on death's door, and will have to spend the next few days (or weeks) recovering, it makes the fight much more memorable, thus adding to the cinematic feel of the setting. Your players have to do some work, also, but theirs is easier, and easily encouraged-- follow the action point system Keith Baker presented in Dragonshards: Swashbuckling 101. If a player wants to spend an action point on something, but doesn't describe it in an interesting way, don't let him spend the point. Think of it like this: If your campaign were a movie, spending action points would represent situations where the audience is on the edge of their seats, thinking "Oh man, this guy's going to do something cool." Filmakers create this using music, sound effects, slow motion, and even other action sequences-- it all builds up to a satisfying climax. For example... In Raiders of the Lost Ark (one of the example films for inspiration from the ERC), there's a short little sequence during a fight where the music changes, combatants move out of the way, and an enemy wielding two blades appears, swinging them around in a show of skill, then stopping. There's a short pause before Indiana Jones reacts-- This is where the audience goes "Oh man, he's going to do something cool!" That's the action point... So what does he do? Quick draws his gun and blasts the guy in the face in one swift motion. Good stuff. The whole reason action points exist is to emulate this, because usually when dramatic buildup occurs, the hero doesn't screw up. If they do, it dissapoints the audience. That's why action points add to d20 rolls, so characters are more likely to succeed when the "audience" wants them to. However... dramatic buildup normally isn't used to accent everyday, boring events. Nobody plays car-chase music when people are stopping at traffic lights and using their turn signals. So why should the buildup (action points) matter when your PC's aren't doing anything interesting? I really can't picture music cues and slow motion being applied to stuff like "I take a 5-foot step and make a full attack," or "I reload my crossbow and shoot goblin 1." Could you imagine the above example from Raiders of the Lost Ark described that way? "I draw my gun, and shoot the sword guy." Ugh... It just doesn't do it justice. I'd expect something much more colorful.
Ardent 09-24-04, 04:13 PM	Oh yeah, the UA thing I wanted to implement was the Vit/Wounds thing. #1's anti that because he claims "If I wanted to play HEROsystem, I'm already in a campaign with that..." Well, VP/WP system is a bit rough on a standard DnD campaign...but if you want an equally realistic system, just drop the massive damage threshold from 50 to equal to their Con and instead of death for failure, just make them mortally wounded (-1 hp). Works for d20 Modern. You're not "instituting a new health tracking system" but you're getting more or less the same effect.
Six Million 09-24-04, 04:24 PM	Wow. As a DM with almost the same types of players, I'd really like to thank you guys for all your wonderfull help. In case anyone cares, I'll tell you about my gaming group #1 Is constantly bored when not in combat, insists of powergaming, and threatens to walk out if he doesn't get his way. One day, I snapped and said "fine! go ahead!", but he is still welcome if he wants, and I want to draw him in. #2 Has a problem with intolerant parents, so he has to hide his playing DnD. Consequently, he has a shaky grasp of the rules. He always plays barbarians or monks, and tends to be easily distracted. #3 Is on OK roleplayer, and comes to the fore a lot, leading the group whether his charater has 7 charisma or 17. #4 Is our other DM. He's good at most everything, but, like everyone else, he keeps pushing for supplements and Prestige Classes to be allowed. Basically, they all argue with me. All the time. I try saying "The DM's word is law", but they don't seem to remember that for more than one playing session. I'm starting a new campaign soon, and I don't know what to do. I don't want to play with some of my friends, and not others, because either our playing time will be drastically curtailed, or I'd invite some over but not others. I also have no idea where I'm going to start or what I'm going to do for the campaign. Things I will be doing, using your advice: 1. The Action Point system: Action points must described well to be effective 2. I'm going to try out that diceless system Ardent described. So, thanks, everyone. Do you have any advice for me? If you don't care, sorry for bothering you.
Methos of Aundair 09-24-04, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by Six Million but if you want an equally realistic system, just drop the massive damage threshold from 50 to equal to their Con I'm currently DM'ing a 12th level party and they run into creatures rather often that easily deal enough hp damage to equal their Con or more with a single strike. In other words your talking at least 1 check a day possibly several dozen. Recall my friend that as you get higher in level creatures of the appropiate CR deal damage with a single hit that quite often involves multiple dice and high strength damage modifiers. Plus even at lower levels there are creatures that could do this much damage and the characters fort save isn't even coming close to be able to make the save successful. I guess thats probably the reason they dropped it down to -1 hp's rather than death. Still way too much IMO.
Josh Wilhoyte 09-24-04, 05:22 PM	In D&D, both DM and Playerss are supposed to have fun. If you're not having fun, that's one thing, but there's nothing wrong with a Hack and Slash campaign in Eberron as long as everyone's having fun.
Somebloke 09-25-04, 01:44 AM	In the end, it's never smart to give in to players...If they threaten to leave, then let them. If they disrupt things too much, then let them know they're on thin ice. You have to be in control and they have to know this.
Lurkalot 09-25-04, 06:03 AM	I've read through the posts here and there's one piece of advice I can offer that hasn't been given yet. It's implicit in a lot of what people have already said, but it's worth making explicit, and that is to really, and I mean obsessively and manically, lead by example. Never let anything happen without getting into it fully from a role-playing and atmosphere angle. Goblins must sneer, archers must make offensive gestures in the distance, damsels must either batter eyelashes or quoff beer and belch. Everyone and everything must be made as visceral and real as you can. Do voices, do random and improvised descriptions, do not let up. I'm going overboard in describing this because I'm saying you must go overboard when doing it. You often wont get responses from your players, particularly #1, but you shouldn't let that stop you. The style of play is a battle of wills between all involved. If you persist with the dramatics, eventually you will force some response in kind from the players. When such a response occurs, pursue it like a rabid dog. I'll talk specifics. Insults. Insults are one of the best ways of drawing a player into in-character dialogue. Poor roleplayers often take everything that happens to their characters personally. If you can get them into any sort of conversation at all, which of course you can because something has to happen to get them to the next fight, then you can have someone annoy them. You'll usually either get a response in dialogue, a physical attack (in game) or most often both. If you just get the middle one, then you've got free reign to wind them up even more - since they aren't countering your NPC/Monster's verbal assault then he'll carry on. It's realistic. When was the last time you got in a fight without their being some shouting / abuse at the same time? As mentioned before - keep it up. You might not get any response at first than "Heroicus pulls out his sword and attacks," but sooner or later, one of your players will risk saying something in character. Then you come back at him and you've got a dialogue. When you have a dialogue, then you start building on it. You tailor your responses to differences between the characters. One is a warforged? Then bring on the hatred that many of the fleshies feel for Warforged. A dwarf? Too obvious but go there anyway. In Eberron you have feelings of nationalism you can go for too. You can at least make your players pick a nation even if you can't get them to read the chapters. You can then start passing on the information they should have learnt from reading it through dialogues. They'll pick up the knowledge without realizing it and this will naturally prepare the ground for role-playing. They cannot role-play without background knowledge and getting it to them somehow is vital. Anything that helps draw them into the world will naturally lead to more role-playing too. Although it's not directly related to role-playing, focus on environmental features. If they ignore you're vivid descriptions, well they'll still pay attention to anything that affects the mechanics. Force them to pursue the villain on dragonhawks if they don't want her to get away. Have battles on uneven or muddy ground. Have the goblins yelling battle tactics to each other in their native tongue to help co-ordinate their actions against the PCs. You don't have to know what the Goblin is for get behind him or mass-grapple the warforged, but the PCs will get the idea when they start shouting instructions to each other and act according to it. Especially if they catch one of their names mentioned in the chatter. Curiousity and paranoia is almost as good as insults. Basically, what I'm saying is lay it on. Over do it. Lead by example. They may not react well at first, but Hell, once you get over this you may find you start to enjoy it more. Establish this level and once you've drawn them in a little, then you can tone it down later if you want. And if it doesn't have any effect after a few sessions, go out and find new players who you can game with.
Six Million 09-25-04, 09:39 PM	Thanks. But, uh, I'm not too good at coming up with insults on the fly, and I'm personally against swear words. Since real-world insults won't "translate" well, how can I come up with some good insults?
Lurkalot 09-26-04, 04:09 AM	Thanks. But, uh, I'm not too good at coming up with unsults on the fly, and I'm personally against swear words. Since real-world insults won't "translate" well, how can I come up with some good insults? Well, if you're a nice person (well done) you don't have to use insults. I just offered that as one good way of drawing people into dialogue. Anything that pushes the players into making responses in character works, threats, questions and flirtation are other possibilities. For example, if there is an NPC cohort or character present for some battles, discuss tactics in character if they want him to do what they want... "Should I try and get up on the balcony, Sir?" , "In Q'Barra when I was fighting the Lizard men, we always used to..." , "I'm not attacking THAT!" I'm focusing on combat as this is when the PCs (from what you said) are most likely to be tricked into in-character playing. ANYTHING that draws them into dialogue will work. Character-specific comments are good for highlighting the differences between the CHARACTERS, which helps get them to identify with their specific characters. That aside, insults don't require you to resort to F'ing and Blinding at your players or aping eal-world insults. Threats are insults too. Any dialogue that is geared to anger or put down a character is an insult. Insults don't have to be Oscar Wilde style bonne mottes. Aundair assassin opponent: "You fight well for a druid. What a waste I shall have to kill you." Valenar cavalryman opponent: "Where did you learn swordfighting? Let me guess, you're from Breland, yes? You are a joke. My wife handles a sword better than you." Goblin opponents (pack) : "Ish'nak g'rah He, ten toe geruni." Rest of goblins laugh at PCs. Dwarf, "Attack me, I dare you. I'll take the head from your shoulders in a heartbeat." Have a few bits of dialogue in your mind before you start if you like, but remember it's role-playing. You yourself might be leery of starting fights or insulting people, but that Ogre you're playing lives and breathes combat and isn't afraid of angering puny little humans or half-golems. When playing a character like that, you should engage and enjoy the power of being nine foot tall and cannibalistic. So don't go for the insults if you like, but get as much dialogue in as possible. Role-playing shouldn't be something that happens inbetween combats. It is the essence of everything and the players require an example that you have to set. Good luck with it, by the way.
Save-vs-DM 09-26-04, 05:30 AM	If you want good non-swear insults, look no further than good old Willie Shakes. Try some of these on for size (I've moderinzed some of the old enqlish a bit) You Rampallian! You Fustilarian! Long tongued babbling gossip! Poisonous bunch-backed toad! Infinate and endless liar, and hourly promise-breaker! A fusty nut with no kernel! Canker blosom! Anointed soverign of sighs and groans mountain of mad flesh (great coming from a warforged) bolting-hutch of beastliness false of heart, light of ear, bloody of hand quintessence of dust all eyes and no sight vareist variet that ever chewed with a tooth lump of foul deformity thou art a boil, a plague-sore not so much brain as ear-wax all the infections that the sun sucks up clod of warward marl idol of idot-worshippers (one of my favorites) foot-licker dread prince of plackets bettle-headed, flap-eared knave roast-meat for worms the soul of this man is his clothes (another fave, from Much Ado) light of brain elvish-marked, abortive, rotting hog O gull, o dult, as ignorant as dirt highly fed and lowly taught lewdly inclined I do desire we may be better strangers (best coming from a woman) Granted, a lot of these might confuse a lot of players, but they are good starting points. Cheers, Save vs DM
Six Million 09-26-04, 09:00 PM	Thanks. Um. I have another question: I'm going to start an online Eberron adventure. What do you guys think of it? "Ah, my daily paper, The Korranberg Chronicle. What's this? Adventure? Excitement? Gold?" This morning, while idly flipping through, you saw an opening for a position of "Journeyman Journalist". It offers adventure, excitement, a chance at riches beyond imagining, and only a "modest" chance of danger. You pore over the advertisement: Help Wanted Do you like seeing new, interesting places? Does the prospect of excitement and adventure stirr your blood? The Korranberg Chronicle wants YOU to act as a Journeyman Journalist for it's Caravan Khorvaire program. Journalists will tour Khorvaire, seeing the sites and meeting new people. Journalists will be required to write one article per week. In the course of their duties, Journalists are taken to an area, and then they have a set amount of time to explore and gather information in that area.* Inflame your creativity with this once-in-a-lifetime offer! Investigate these stories: - Lizardfolk are attacking conductor stones in the Talenta Plains! Why are they destroying them? Do they have a sinister purpose behind the raids? How did they get into these Halfling guarded lands? - People are being found dead in Korth! The only connection between their deaths is the manner: They all die from green-fletched arrows. A petrified changeling has also been found in the slums of the city. Is a medusa in Korth? Why aren't the City Guards doing nothing? - Shiela Lee, a young girl from Hatheril, has been kidnapped! Her assailants have left a polished fingerbone. What does it mean? Who could have captured her? You could write the headline of tomorrow! Just present yourself to the offices of the Sharn Branch of the Korranberg Chronicle, complete with resume. The best submissions will be enrolled in the Korranberg Caravan Eberron program! * The Chronicle offers this program on an as-is basis. The Korranberg Chronicle claims no liablity for damages taken while participiating in this program. The Chronicle offers to guarentees, real or implied, about the Journalists' safety. The Chronicle is not responsible for the acts performed by these Journeyman Journalists. -So what do you think? The intent, is, of course, for the PC's to send in their resumes (backgrounds) only, and I'll have to accept their background proposals before they can make a character. Thanks the the Adventure Hook thread for some ideas. -Please keep in mind I was dragged off the comp before I could finish this. It's almost done, but not quite. - PS Save vrs. DM: If I wanted to write for the Online Korranberg Chronicle, how could I go about it?