Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AvonRekaes 10-23-05, 07:42 PM	It just occured to me that it might possible that the Quori that invaded Xen'drik were actually good aligned. We know they were fighting just before the turn of the age, as no modern Quori is any older than the end of the war. We also know that the current Quori are almost all evil (Kalashtar being the only exception). So if the "turn of the age" after the Giant/Quori war resulted in an age of darkness, then wouldn't that make the age during the war an age of light? Makes you wonder just what the Giant/Quori war was really about.
The White Sorcerer 10-23-05, 07:54 PM	Makes you wonder just what the Giant/Quori war was really about. Propably the same thing as the curren invasion: Locking the cycle of Dal Quor by establishing a status quo on Eberron.
AvonRekaes 10-23-05, 07:59 PM	Yes, but do you think Good quori would have done it the same way as the current ones? They didn't even seem to be doing it with any sort of subtlety, it was a full on invasion. Doesn't sound like keeping the status quo to me...
Siran Dunmorgan 10-23-05, 08:09 PM	Yes, but do you think Good quori would have done it the same way as the current ones? They didn't even seem to be doing it with any sort of subtlety, it was a full on invasion. Doesn't sound like keeping the status quo to me... The difference is that the Quori of today can't stage a full-on invasion: Dal Quor has been forced out of its orbit. I expect that if they could invade, they would. Much of what they've been doing in Riedra for the past few centuries, i.e., building the monoliths, seems to be devoted to strengthening the connection between Dal Quor and Eberron, in effect undoing what was done at the end of the Age of Giants. —Siran Dunmorgan
Majorafire77 10-23-05, 08:20 PM	The difference is that the Quori of today can't stage a full-on invasion: Dal Quor has been forced out of its orbit. I expect that if they could invade, they would. Much of what they've been doing in Riedra for the past few centuries, i.e., building the monoliths, seems to be devoted to strengthening the connection between Dal Quor and Eberron, in effect undoing what was done at the end of the Age of Giants. —Siran Dunmorgan I think that I'm beating a dead horse when I say this, but I'll say it anyway. The Quori wouldn't invade Khorvaire because they know that if they did, the countries would all join together and completely pwn them. What the Quori do instead is divide the countries and start another war, weakening the countries to the point where they can come in and take over by force. The countries are weak now, but not weak enough.
The Dreaming Duck 10-23-05, 08:28 PM	Makes you wonder just what the Giant/Quori war was really about. Personally, I like the idea that the GIANTS were the aggressors. Consider that the giants were slavers, powerful wizards, and had enough knowledge of the planes to eventually break the orbit of a plane. What if it was the giants who initiated contact between the two worlds - and the quori "invasion" was in fact retailiation? Sure, the war in Xen'drik may have been the bulk of it... but it could have been giant aggression and arrogance that set it off.
Kid SixXx 10-23-05, 08:38 PM	So if the "turn of the age" after the Giant/Quori war resulted in an age of darkness, then wouldn't that make the age during the war an age of light? I don't know about all that. From what I gathered, the Giant / Quori war was more akin to a couple of lions fighting over who got the last bit of antelope carcass.
AvonRekaes 10-23-05, 09:06 PM	Personally, I like the idea that the GIANTS were the aggressors. Consider that the giants were slavers, powerful wizards, and had enough knowledge of the planes to eventually break the orbit of a plane. What if it was the giants who initiated contact between the two worlds - and the quori "invasion" was in fact retailiation? Sure, the war in Xen'drik may have been the bulk of it... but it could have been giant aggression and arrogance that set it off. I think this is probably the case, if we assume that the Quori were indeed good aligned. Kid SixXx, I'm not sure what lions and their dinner have to do with making an argument against the previous "age" in Dal Quor having the Dreaming Light at it's center rather than the Dreamign Dark.
deClench 10-23-05, 09:18 PM	What if it was the giants who initiated contact between the two worlds - and the quori "invasion" was in fact retailiation? Sure, the war in Xen'drik may have been the bulk of it... but it could have been giant aggression and arrogance that set it off. I like that. The giants were experimenting with magic. Maybe, ala the movie "Event Horizon," the giants were responsible for establishing a connection. Sure the Eberron-eans were visiting Dal Quor every night, but maybe the Quori believed they were only figments or inconsequential until the giants did something to change that and attracted the Quori's attention. I think this is probably the case, if we assume that the Quori were indeed good aligned. As for good Quori, I don't think that that's required for this scenario: evil organizaions can fight one another too. Of course, "good" CAN be rather subjective depending on point-of-view. I'm sure that the Quori feel they are doing good by their own; what matters the feelings of a few mosquitos. ;)
jknevitt 10-23-05, 09:26 PM	If --if-- the invading quori were good-aligned, and failed in their invasion, it sets the stage for the current regime of eeevil quori. In the aftermath of a failed invasion, there are plenty of power vacuums on both sides, whether you are native or extraplanar.
AvonRekaes 10-23-05, 09:37 PM	jknevitt, there was indeed a power vacuum in Dal Quor after the war, but not in the way I think you believe. After the Giant/Quori war, the plane of Dal Quor imploded and "Reset". There are no quori in existance that have memories of the Giant/Quori war because the current "stock" of Quori have only existed after the plane itself was reborn.
Edymnion 10-23-05, 09:47 PM	Actually, thats the belief my islands of Half-Giants just off the north coast of Xen'Drik think. That the Quori were benevolant gods who tried to deliever them from slavery, only to be beaten back by powerful magics of the giants and dragons. That their ancestors fled Xen'Drik to avoid the backlash they would have gotten from the "evil" giants when they finally won. Over the millenia, they lost their pure-blood status by interbreeding with each others and some of the smaller races, until we got Half-Giants as a true-breeding race. They are still naturally psionic because their ancesters were psionic, and its a ritual they've kept up for so many millenia its become part of the race. Now, I actually have those Quori as being evil, and the giants really were fending off an evil invasion, its just a case of "the winners write the history books", and those rebel giant quori conspirators taught their children how they had "voluntarily" left Xen'Drik to avoid persecution. Which actually puts them at odds with the Kalashtar, who they would see as ungrateful god-children, and would happily do their best to help the Dreaming Dark invade again. Well, until they found out that the Quori really were evil... :devil:
Kid SixXx 10-23-05, 09:55 PM	I'm not sure what lions and their dinner have to do with making an argument against the previous "age" in Dal Quor having the Dreaming Light at it's center rather than the Dreamign Dark. I'm not totally convinced that there is such a thing as a "Dreaming Light." Conventional schools of thought hold that the Quori invaded Xen'drik as aggressors via the gate, and the Giants (not too savory a lot themselves) pretty much fought to keep their position near the top of the Eberron power system by using Dragon magic to close the gate. If anything, if you're an Elf or a Drow, that's a war that you hope that the primary participants wipe each other out. Whether or not you continue being a slave depends on both the Giants & Quori being so spent from fighting each other that you have a chance to rebel, which the Elves & Drow did. To attempt to answer your question in the first post: IMO, the war was about power, and little else. The Giants were the most advanced civilization at the time & the Quori hoped to displace them as rulers. No more, no less. Conquering the conquerers as it were, or perhaps neutralizing a potential equal or competitor before they got off of the starting blocks. I don't think that the Elves or Drow would have seen much "enlightenment" or emancipation under Quori rule, provided that the Quori defeated the Giants. More than likely, the only thing that would have changed would have been the hands that held the ownership papers on their respective races. Since history is written by the victors, there is plenty of reason to find fault with modern accounts, as it implies that we are taking the Giant's word for it that the Quori invasion was an act of aggression. However, we can also look to the Dragons for a full accounting of what actually happened as they were an active party in the conflict, and I'd argue that the Dragons don't give enough of a flip about anyone to color the issue one way or the other. ;)
jknevitt 10-23-05, 10:01 PM	jknevitt, there was indeed a power vacuum in Dal Quor after the war, but not in the way I think you believe. After the Giant/Quori war, the plane of Dal Quor imploded and "Reset". There are no quori in existance that have memories of the Giant/Quori war because the current "stock" of Quori have only existed after the plane itself was reborn. Oh yeah. Forgot about that.
The Dreaming Duck 10-23-05, 10:08 PM	its just a case of "the winners write the history books"... Which is my argument for the invasion being the result of giant aggression: since the trivial amount of information we have is all based on the records of the giants, naturally it will portray the giants as innocent and the quori as the aggressors. With that said, I agree with deClench - this could simply be the giants doing something to attract the attention of the quori. For example, let's say that the giants make an arcane power source that serves the same role as a nuclear reator - but what they don't know is that this is leaking arcane waste into Dal Quor. if the quori are good, they can still show up to stp what they see as an act of aggression. If they are evil, it's simply the trigger that attracts their attention and spurs them to break through. I think a key point on the turn of the age is whether or not it's a binary system. The kalashtar believe that the next age will be an age of light. But are light and dark the only option? Looking at "light" as good and "dark" as evil, good there have been an age of neutrality? Of chaos? It may be that the kalashtar are desperate to find out about the previous age because they beleive it will give insight in to what's next to come.
The Dreaming Duck 10-23-05, 10:12 PM	IMO, the war was about power, and little else. The Giants were the most advanced civilization at the time & the Quori hoped to displace them as rulers. No more, no less. Wouldn't the dragons have been the most advanced and/or powerful civilization of the time? Since history is written by the victors, there is plenty of reason to find fault with modern accounts, as it implies that we are taking the Giant's word for it that the Quori invasion was an act of aggression. However, we can also look to the Dragons for a full accounting of what actually happened as they were an active party in the conflict... In what way were they active participants? As far as I can tell they ignored the whole thing, said "Holy ****!" when the giants broke the planar orbit, and then crushed the giants the next time the giants thought about using that level of magic.
Kid SixXx 10-23-05, 10:23 PM	Wouldn't the dragons have been the most advanced and/or powerful civilization of the time? Depends on your analysis of threat. Dragons don't seem to care what goes on unless it affects them directly, and depending on the attrition of the wars between the Dragons & the Fiends, you could arguably debate the fine points of whether or not the remaing dragons were numerous enough to refer to as a civilization or merely a small society. The war between the Dragons & Fiends nearly exterminated the Coatl. Who truly knows how many dragons were killed in that conflict? Obviously the Dragons do, but why would they talk about it, at the price of revealing some weakness? The Giants, meanwhile, clearly had an advanced society bent on conquest. The Dragons obviously realized this & arguably shared their magic with the Giants as a peace offering, or at least as a pact of non-agression. You don't mess with us & we won't mess with you. The Quori, OTOH, attacked. The Giants became a blip on the Quori radar and the Quori felt compelled to nip the Giants in the bud before they became a threat. The Quori obviously wouldn't have attacked the Dragons because the Dragons have no interest in competing with the Quori in any form or fashion. The Dragons would not have opposed the Quori unless provoked, or possibly if the Quori's actions threatened to compromise the Prophesy. The Giants were more of a direct threat to the Quori than the Dragons were. In what way were they active participants? As far as I can tell they ignored the whole thing, said "Holy ****!" when the giants broke the planar orbit, and then crushed the giants the next time the giants thought about using that level of magic. Observers & chronicallers then. The active participation role I spoke of came in the form of the Dragons attacking the Giants before the Giants attempted to wreck the planet a second time in the attempt to quell the Elf & Drow insurgencies. I personally think that the one of the reasons the Dragons attacked was because of the nature of the opposition. Using Dragon magic & causing cataclysms in order to stop an interplanar invasion is one thing. Doing the same thing to put down a rebellion of paltry mortals is quite another. For some reason, that seems to synch in with the Eberron dragon mindset, IMO. The Dragons were present at the time of the Giant / Quori War. If there is any unbiased record of the events of the war, the Dragons have it. Since Eberron history is driven by most things draconic, I'd wager that the current accounts of the Giant / Quori war are the Dragon's account and that the events as told in the ECS are accurate. The Quori came as malevolent aggressors, and were beaten back by the Giants who were hardly admirable themselves. So if the "turn of the age" after the Giant/Quori war resulted in an age of darkness, then wouldn't that make the age during the war an age of light? It certainly was an Age of Light... provided that you were a Giant, or perhaps a Dragon. The bane of all mortals is that their arrogance leads them to believe that all references refer to them. ;) In all seriousness, IMO the references to the "turn of the age" probably point to transition of prominance of Dragons & Giants to the prominance of the various humanoid races, which again from a Giant or Draconic perspective could indeed be seen as an "age of darkness." Giant civilization fell along with it's marvels (and slavery), Dragons withdrew from sight & took their magic with them, and mortals tried to destroy one another in the Last War culminating with the destruction of Cyre. A very dark time, indeed.
KingNeo 10-24-05, 12:11 AM	You know they say good and evil are in the eye of the beholder. I mean look at it like this. The Quori spirits that inhabit all Kalashtar found out that when Dal Qour turns into another age all of them would be destroyed and that it was about to occur soon, correct? So would you really want this to happen and have yourself, your identity, destroyed. Probably not, nor would I. So what did the majority of Qouri do? They tried to keep themselves from being destroyed, and keep those around them from being destroyed. This is not inheritly evil, actually its good sense they are trying to protect themselves and others they know. So then the real mess started to happen when the Quori that would once inhabit the Kalashtar wanted to not only keep the age occuring, but actually speed it up, since the Kalashtar spirits saw the current age as a age of evil and destruction and the new age as a age of peace and benevolance. Now to all the other Quori that had to seem like utter suicide. Like someone today saying that mankind was too evil to live and drop thousands of kilotons of nuclear weapons on us, so that any new generations could live in utter harmony. So having the Quori trying to kill the Kalashtar spirits was not inheritly evil since they were trying to protect themselves, and to them this was a good act. So now the Quori that would later be the Kalashtar fled to Eberron so they would not be destroyed. The Dal Quor Quori then invade Eberron to destroy the Kaslashtar Quori to keep themselves from being killed, and then the Giants got involved, and then the Quori were pushed back to their home plane. Now the Quori of Dal Quor are trying to keep themselves from being destroyed by killing the Kalashtar, and vice versa. So you could say the Quori were good nor evil, since people will do terrible things to survive. But we know that the Quori were evil since they inhabit the forms of nightmares, and the age of this change has not occured yet.
The Dreaming Duck 10-24-05, 01:24 AM	But we know that the Quori were evil since they inhabit the forms of nightmares, and the age of this change has not occured yet. You've got your dates wrong, KingNeo. The kalashtar didn't appear until the current age. They arrived on Khorvaire 1,800 years ago. That's over 36,000 years after the collapse of giant civilization, making it 360,000 years of relative time for the quori. Furthermore, the change HAS occured. It occured sometime after the giants defeated the quori; according to RoE, we're currently in Quori Age #3. The war between the Dragons & Fiends nearly exterminated the Coatl. Just to split hairs, it forced the couatl to exterminate themselves. According to Hellcow the couatl were immortal outsiders, like the rakshasa: they sacrificed their existence to create a force that could bind their immortal enemies. But I agree, we don't know how badly the dragons suffered or how many of them there are - though they have had a hundred thousand years to recover. The Giants, meanwhile, clearly had an advanced society bent on conquest. The Dragons obviously realized this & arguably shared their magic with the Giants as a peace offering, or at least as a pact of non-agression. I'd say that's quite arguable. You've developed the atomic bomb and used it to win a war at terrible cost. You realize that your barbaric neighbors are bent on conquest, so as a peace offering... you give them the means to make atomic weaponry? Furthermore, the ease with which the dragons apparently defeat the giants in the end doesn't stack up with the idea that the dragons were in fear of the giants. I can see many other ideas for why the dragons shared their magic which make much more sense to me: The dragons drafted the giants to help in their fight against the rakshasa, and taught them magic during this period. (Of course, this clashes with the ECS timeline.) One or more idealistic dragons believed that the giants could help the dragons protect the world from future threats. It's a Prime Directive situation, which explains why Vhaarak was breaking the rules when she taught the Gatekeepers - "Remember what happened the last time we shared our magic? We had to wipe out an entire continent." Even then, their actions were guided by the Prophecy; they did what they believed needed to be done. I just don't see the dragons as being motivated by fear - or sharing such deadly secrets as being a wise peace offering. The ECS says that it was the dragons who first contacted the giants; there's no indication that the giants struck out beyond Xen'drik or ever posed a threat to the dragons. The Giants became a blip on the Quori radar and the Quori felt compelled to nip the Giants in the bud before they became a threat. But the question is why they became a blip on the Quori radar. They weren't attacked by Shavarath, Mabar, or even Xoriat, after all: this wasn't an all-out planar war against the giants. That's why I'm suggesting the idea that the giants did something specific to trigger the invasion, whether intentionally or not. And to my mind, that is how you could get good Quori invading. If the giants are building magical power plants that vent waste into Dal Quor - well, good or evil, you need to protect your people. With that said, I don't think that the former quori were necessarily good - but I certainly think they were different. Given that the NEXT age is supposed to be dramatically different, I think it's logical to assume that the previous age was as well. We might go good-evil-good-evil or chaos-neutral-good-evil... but I doubt it's evil-evil-evil-good. I'd wager that the current accounts of the Giant / Quori war are the Dragon's account and that the events as told in the ECS are accurate. The Quori came as malevolent aggressors... But where does the ECS say the quori came as malevolent aggressors? On page 224 of the ECS, it simply says "The quori invade Xen'drik through a gate that connects Eberron to Dal Quor, the Plane of Dreams. After years of battle, the giants call upon the magic of the dragons to destroy the planar gate." There's nothing about motivation. Yes, the quori invade. But was it driven by hatred and malevolence? Was it a desperate attempt to prevent the turn of the age? Or was it in response to arcane actions of the giants? IMO, the statement in the ECS doesn't rule out any of these.
AvonRekaes 10-24-05, 01:31 AM	It certainly was an Age of Light... provided that you were a Giant, or perhaps a Dragon. The bane of all mortals is that their arrogance leads them to believe that all references refer to them. ;) In all seriousness, IMO the references to the "turn of the age" probably point to transition of prominance of Dragons & Giants to the prominance of the various humanoid races, which again from a Giant or Draconic perspective could indeed be seen as an "age of darkness." Except that "Age of Darkness" and "Age of Light" aren't relative to any mortal, they're relative to what is at the center of the plane of Dal Quor. The Darkness or Il-Yanna at the heart of Dal Quor is what the term "Age of Darkness" or "Light" means in this argument. Eberron has had it's own ages, such as the Age of Dreams, the Age of Dragons, and such-like, but when I refer to "the turn of the age" I meant the "implosion, destruction, and consequential rebirth of the entire Realm of Dreams". Have you read the Kalashtar chapter of Races of Eberron? That's where I'm getting my terminology. So now the Quori that would later be the Kalashtar fled to Eberron so they would not be destroyed. The Dal Quor Quori then invade Eberron to destroy the Kaslashtar Quori to keep themselves from being killed, and then the Giants got involved, and then the Quori were pushed back to their home plane. Now the Quori of Dal Quor are trying to keep themselves from being destroyed by killing the Kalashtar, and vice versa. So you could say the Quori were good nor evil, since people will do terrible things to survive. I think you're missing a step KingNeo: The Kalashtar fled the Plane of Dreams well after the Giants threw Dal Quor off it's planar axis. The giants did that about 40,000 years ago and the Kalashtar fled Dal Quor maybe 2,000 years ago. Regardless, you make a very good point about the current kalashtar pretty much amounting to terrorists. They are the crazy suicidal religious nuts from the Dreaming Dark's point of view. The only differences is that even with Eberron's muddled alignments, Black is still Black and White is still White. There are muddled grays inbetween, but especially with outsiders we shouldn't loose sight of the absolutes. The Dreaming Dark is evil, without a doubt. Their plans are far reaching and subtle, but a world with no free will is about as horrifying as a post-apocalyptic one. Their evil lets it's victims live, but really what kind of life do they have without freedom of choice? The Kalashtar are here to make sure that doesn't happen. They might be radical and "suicidal bombers" to the Dreaming Dark, but they DO have their hearts in the right places and after all... complete destruction of their race does not equal extinction, they'll all be reborn anyway.
Kid SixXx 10-24-05, 06:46 AM	I just don't see the dragons as being motivated by fear - or sharing such deadly secrets as being a wise peace offering. The ECS says that it was the dragons who first contacted the giants; there's no indication that the giants struck out beyond Xen'drik or ever posed a threat to the dragons. I don't recall ever saying that the Dragons reacted out of fear, and merely because the Giants showed no signs of striking outside of Xen'drik is no indication that they never wouldn't have. The giants certainly lived up to their potential by mastering Draconic magic in a short time and using it to develop a society which has yet to be rivaled in Eberron. The gift of magic also focused the Giant's attention on local nation-building rather than conquest for nearly 20,000 years, so IMO, the Dragons made a very smart move. You realize that your barbaric neighbors are bent on conquest, so as a peace offering... you give them the means to make atomic weaponry? Indeed, especially if having such power was in line with the Prophesy, and regardless of the motives the outcome was just as I said. The Giants focused on civilization building rather than potentially focusing their attention on conquests outside of Xen'drik, and did not become a force that the Dragons had to deal with for about 20,000 years. When it came time for the Dragons to deal with the Giants, the Dragons were able to deal Giant civilization a blow it has never recovered from. I suppose the moral is that Dragons don't offer gifts that they don't know how to counter in the future. But where does the ECS say the quori came as malevolent aggressors? On page 224 of the ECS, it simply says "The quori invade Xen'drik through a gate that connects Eberron to Dal Quor, the Plane of Dreams. After years of battle, the giants call upon the magic of the dragons to destroy the planar gate." There's nothing about motivation. Yes, the quori invade. But was it driven by hatred and malevolence? Was it a desperate attempt to prevent the turn of the age? Or was it in response to arcane actions of the giants? IMO, the statement in the ECS doesn't rule out any of these. It mentions nothing about motivations, good or evil, and I am not torpeoding the fact that the motivations that the Quori in that particular scenario could possibly been good. I'm not sure why you're under the impression that because I disagree, I also think that your interpretaiton of events is absolutely wrong. I was under the impression that we were debating the point based on our own interpretations of events.
Kid SixXx 10-24-05, 07:01 AM	Except that "Age of Darkness" and "Age of Light" aren't relative to any mortal, they're relative to what is at the center of the plane of Dal Quor. The Darkness or Il-Yanna at the heart of Dal Quor is what the term "Age of Darkness" or "Light" means in this argument. So you're saying that the war brought about the current state of events, & that when the "good" Quori were slain, evil Quori lept from Quor Tarai to take their place, which caused the transition of the core of Dal Quor to change from il-Yanna to il-Lashtavar. That's interesting, but the history of the Kalashtar only goes back about 1800 years, so I'd wager that the emergence of Quori as a benevolent force, namely Taratai and her associates, is a recent state of events that has little to do with the ancient war between the Giants and the Quori. That's just my interpretation, though. I tend to think that il-Yanna is something that the Kalashtar & rebel Quori strive to see. I don't think it has actually come about yet, but that is also my interpretation. In RoE, Taratai also seems to say that il-Yanna has yet to arrive as well, as shown on pp 64-65. The "age of light" comes up as an issue when Taratai tries to "jumpstart" the event and winds up sealing her fate, which leads to the birth of the Kalashtar.
The White Sorcerer 10-24-05, 08:08 AM	So you're saying that the war brought about the current state of events, & that when the "good" Quori were slain, evil Quori lept from Quor Tarai to take their place, which caused the transition of the core of Dal Quor to change from il-Yanna to il-Lashtavar. No. That happened on its own accord, and the quori were trying to prevent it.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 10-24-05, 08:30 AM	Has anyone considered that despite Dal Quor being in an age of peace and benevolence during the Age of Giants, the attack on the giants was still driven by evil? It makes sense if you look to the current age. The Kalashtar are good, they have somehow formed with a mindset contrary to Il-Lashtavar. Through their meditations and pursuit of the Dreaming Dark, they are trying to bring about the turning of the age. What if the same happened in the Age of Giants? Some evil quori were formed despite the age of benevolence, and, just like the kalashtar, sought to bring about the turning of the age to suit them. What better way to bring about the turning of the age then a mass interplanar invasion? Of course, a mass interplanar invasion requires numbers which the kalashtar certainly don't have. However, if we look to the future there is the possibility of creating new quori through following a path from atavist to avatar. If these techniques become widespread and simplified, the kalashtar will become a force to be reckoned with.
Kid SixXx 10-24-05, 11:02 AM	No. That happened on its own accord, and the quori were trying to prevent it. Even so, it seems as though the concept of Quori as a benevolent force is a recent development in Quori philosophy and doesn't seem to pre-date the Giant / Quori War. If anything, the war seemed to hasten the arrival of il-Yannah instead of the other way around, as the demise of evil Quori during the war apparently & hypothetically seems to have given rise to the benevolent Quori that eventually became the Kalashtar.
The Dreaming Duck 10-24-05, 11:46 AM	Except that "Age of Darkness" and "Age of Light" aren't relative to any mortal, they're relative to what is at the center of the plane of Dal Quor. So you're saying that the war brought about the current state of events, & that when the "good" Quori were slain, evil Quori lept from Quor Tarai to take their place, which caused the transition of the core of Dal Quor to change from il-Yanna to il-Lashtavar. As I read it, that's not what he's saying at all, Kid SixXx. We know, thanks to RoE, that Dal Quor is in its third age, and that when it enters a new age, everything changes (literally). In this, the third age, the center of Dal Quor is held by il-Lashtavar, and as such, it called an age of darkness. The kalashtar claim that the fourth age will be dominated by il-Yannah, and as such will be called an age of light. We're told that the invasion of Xen'drik occured at the end of the second age. So the question is: if the third age is il-Lashtavar, and the fourth age is il-Yannah, what was the second age? Is the pattern evil-good-evil-good, or something entirely different - so the second age was neither il-Lashtavar nor il-Yannah? As it stands, nothing implies that killing quori speeds up the turn of the age; on the contrary, if that were true it would encourage the kalashtar to fight the Inspired physically, whereas instead RoE says that most consider the physical battles to be a waste of time. I tend to think that il-Yanna is something that the Kalashtar & rebel Quori strive to see. I don't think it has actually come about yet, but that is also my interpretation. I agree that it's something that they strive to see, but that doesn't mean that it may not have existed in a previous age. For the kalashtar, it makes no difference what dominated the previous age; whatever it was, it's gone now. Even so, it seems as though the concept of Quori as a benevolent force is a recent development in Quori philosophy and doesn't seem to pre-date the Giant / Quori War. Nothing in modern quori philosophy predates the Giant/Quori war, because that occured in the previous age. It's like saying that nothing in our universe predates the Big Bang. In the third age, the concept of quori as a benevolent force is quite recent. But the original poster was asking what the quori might have been like in the second age - and as it stands, even the kalashtar and Inspired know nothing about that. All we know based on their actions. Going back to the idea that the history comes to us through the dragons, I still think that leaves history open to debate. They're a continent away. History reports the facts - "Quori invaded. Giants destroyed the gate." - but doesn't explain the reasons. Dragons could record the basic facts - but are they going to have sat down with the quori and said "So, for the record, tell us your side of the story"? The invasion certainly occured, but I think the question of "what triggered the invasion" is still valid.
The White Sorcerer 10-24-05, 12:11 PM	If anything, the war seemed to hasten the arrival of il-Yannah instead of the other way around, as the demise of evil Quori during the war apparently & hypothetically seems to have given rise to the benevolent Quori that eventually became the Kalashtar. That's assuming that the invading quori were evil.
Kid SixXx 10-24-05, 12:15 PM	So the question is: if the third age is il-Lashtavar, and the fourth age is il-Yannah, what was the second age? Is the pattern evil-good-evil-good, or something entirely different - so the second age was neither il-Lashtavar nor il-Yannah? Aie, yet another conundrum. As it stands, nothing implies that killing quori speeds up the turn of the age; on the contrary, if that were true it would encourage the kalashtar to fight the Inspired physically whereas instead RoE says that most consider the physical battles to be a waste of time. How would this encourage the Kalashtar to fight then Inspired physically? The Quori that inhabit the Inspired on this plane cannot be slain in that manner: only the vessels would be destroyed. Obviously the Kalahshtar would prefer it if the transition to il-Yanna happened as a result of the evil Quori having a change of heart, rather than being forced to rethink their ways by violent means or even killed in the attempt to recycle evil Quori with benevolent Quori. The Path to Light would not be a terribly enlightened or benevolent path if the beginning of the age was marked with bloodshed. That being said, even the most pacifistic of Kalashtar arguably accepts the need for physical battles, otherwise there would be no place for the Soulknives. I agree that it's something that they strive to see, but that doesn't mean that it may not have existed in a previous age. For the kalashtar, it makes no difference what dominated the previous age; whatever it was, it's gone now. I agree in principle. Nothing suggests that the Quori haven't had previous ages of il-Yanna but nothing seems to suggest that the Quori lived in a period of il-Yanna during the time period we're discussing, nor does it suggest that the second age was a period of il-Yanna. If anything, the hypothesis you suggested that the Dragons possibly gave Draconic magic to the Giants for the possible purpose of jumpstarting the Giant / Quori war for the sake of furthering the Prophesy seems to also suggest that the Dragons were possibly aware of the outcome, & that the disconnection of Dal Quor and the birth of the fourth age of il-Yanna might play prominantly in the Prophesy. Again, who really knows. Nothing in modern quori philosophy predates the Giant/Quori war, because that occured in the previous age. It's like saying that nothing in our universe predates the Big Bang. In the third age, the concept of quori as a benevolent force is quite recent. But the original poster was asking what the quori might have been like in the second age - and as it stands, even the kalashtar and Inspired know nothing about that. All we know based on their actions. Indeed, and that action apparently included a Quori pre-emptive invasion of Giant civilization. By that token, I freely conceed to you & Avon that motive and validity of the course of events are matters of conjecture. Dragons could record the basic facts - but are they going to have sat down with the quori and said "So, for the record, tell us your side of the story"? At the risk of sounding dismissive, I'd wager that Dragons would certainly have their methods at their disposal of discerning infomation & motive that have absolutely nothing to do with personal interviews. Arguably, if we're examining this from a Prophesy conspiracy perspective, the Dragons already knew the Quori side of the story, as the Dragons seemed to count on the reactions of the Quori to the advancement of Giant civilization. The Dragons counted on the events of Quori & Giant conflict coming to pass as shown in history in order to bring about the Age of Monsters and further the Prophesy, or somesuch.
Indigo 10-24-05, 12:32 PM	That being said, even the most pacifistic of Kalashtar arguably accepts the need for physical battles, otherwise there would be no place for the Soulknives. That's a no-brainer. But I don't think Dreaming Duck was saying that the kalashtar are pacifists: at the very least they need to defend themselves, and the shadow watchers are there to interfere with DD plans. But RoE establishes that they believe that their battle will be won through prayer and meditation, not combat. Indeed, and that action included a Quori pre-emptive invasion of Giant civilization. Where is this stated? As far as I can tell, that's exactly the point Duck is trying to make. History includes a quori invasion. Nothing says it was preemptive. We don't have a history of Dal Quor; RoE was the first we heard about the multiple quori ages, so while the ECS timeline may be an infalliable draconic encyclopedia, it still only covers events on Eberron. It may be that the timeline of Dal Quor includes an aggressive event that triggered the quori invasion. Personally, from reading RoE it seemed to be a fairly straightforward issue of survival: the second age was coming to an end, and the quori of the time somehow believed that through invading they could stop the turn (which presumably means they had something very different in mind than the modern quori). Good? Evil? It doesn't matter: from their point of view, the survival of their entire civilization and culture was at stake.
Kid SixXx 10-24-05, 12:47 PM	But RoE establishes that they believe that their battle will be won through prayer and meditation, not combat. Combat will be necessary for survival as you've stated, but I agree that it won't affect the war. I suppose my point was that this belief has just as much practical merit as philosophical merit. While it sounds nice that the Kalashtar prefer that il-Yanna arrive through peaceful means, it is also an arguably known fact by the Kalahstar that the Quori cannot be physically slain while they inhabit the bodies of the Inspired. It is obvious that the war will not be won through combat because the Kalahstar cannot inflict casualties on the enemy by merely slaying the Inspired. The best the Kalashtar Soulknives can hope for is to thwart DD plans long enough to hope that eventually il-Yanna will arrive through the philosophical rebirth of Quori represented in The Dreaming Dark to a benevolent state. Where is this stated? I think you truncated my post pre-edit. I have "apparently" in my quote & have conceded the point that nothing anywhere states that the Quori invasion was an aggressive act initiated with evil intent. By the same token, the very premise of this thread is speculative, as there is no inclination to support the notion that the Quori invasion was a benevolent, retributive action against the Giants. All of the issues in debate are pure speculation, but to my credit, history does make note of a Quori Invasion and not any provocatory actions on the part of the Giants.
AvonRekaes 10-25-05, 12:32 AM	EDIT: Teaches me to post as soon as I read something. This was in response to a point KidSixXx already conceeded. The only reason I'm not editing it out is cause I had nothing else to say and I can't just delete the post. >_> Even so, it seems as though the concept of Quori as a benevolent force is a recent development in Quori philosophy and doesn't seem to pre-date the Giant / Quori War. The problem with Quori philosphy is that it CAN'T predate the Giant/Quori war because the plane imploded right after it. The current regime of evil Quori didn't change the Age to one of Darkness, the plane itself was reborn with il-Lashtavar at it's core, which birthed the evil Quori. We really don't have any evidence of what the Quori were like previous to the current age because even the Quori's god-like figure wasn't around then. My original point was that it could be possible that the plane of Dal Quor is a binary system, existing in either one of two states (light or darkness). So if the current age is Darkness, then the next and previous were ages of light because of the alternating nature of the turn of the age. In the end, there are no answers given to what the Giant/Quori War quori were like, because even the Quori don't know their own history beyond that point.
Kid SixXx 10-25-05, 05:56 AM	EDIT: Teaches me to post as soon as I read something. This was in response to a point KidSixXx already conceeded. The only reason I'm not editing it out is cause I had nothing else to say and I can't just delete the post. >_>. Aha, but you can attack my prior point because I did not take into consideration the "reboot" of Dal Quor into my assessment of the recent developments concerning il-Lashtavar, and you would be right for doing so. After a bit of reading, I've come to the conclusion that the current developments concerning il-Yanna & the Kalahstar have nothing to do with the Giant / Quori war, so my theory is partially hosed.
Thievingrouge 10-25-05, 09:13 PM	Assuming Dal quor dosen't predate Eberron, those are Evil quori. Maybe the dreamer is Eberron it's self (Genus Loci Prime anyone?), and whaen it stirs Dalquor gets wiped. (assuming you want to extrapolate "dragon")