Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nastynate 02-27-06, 04:04 AM	I want to pose a question to the cummunity here concerning the core books, complete series, and generic D&D material like the race and dragon series in relation to Eberron. While most of us seem to agree that the Eberron specific material should be fluffy, and the primary source of crunchy game mechanics should be left to the generic books, what if that is the wrong approach? Here me out, before you think I'm nuts. Eberron is an entirely different animal than the core setting. Unilke Forgotten Realms it isn't quite as traditionally friendly to generic suppliments. I know "if it has a place in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron." But with so many heated debates recently pertaining to the placement of this material, perhaps Eberron isn't really set up well to accept this stuff after all. Maybe that motto should have been "If it has a place in D&D, then it has a place in Torril," because that statement actually holds water. The mythology of Eberron is significantly different in Eberron so large swaths of the race books and complete divine just don't fit. Sub-races, Moradin, Diety specific PrCs do not fit. You have to force a square block through a round hole, which can be done, but not without changing either the block or the hole. Either way you broke something, because it not meant to be there. The culture is diverse but far from traditional, so culturally based ideas often don't mesh very well. For example traditional oriental based PrCs can't just get thrown into the Unapproachable east. There isn't anyplace like that in Eberron. Keith himself has suggested smaurai ideals work well for the Dhakanni; but do the culture or background? nope. Races of the Dragon doesn't particularly have a good place either. If the kobolds have such strong draconic ties, why isn't it reflected by the ECS, or any other Eberron sourcebook? Well because in Eberron kobolds, and dragons are different, that's why. In short Eberron isn't traditional fantasy, while the generic D&D books are. Wouldn't we all rather have Eberron based feats, PrCs, spells, and psionics, than generic stuff that doesn't mesh? Wouldn't a healthier mix of crunch in our Eberron books, allieviate some of the pressure on the editing teams that need to proof-read all the setting specific fluff, and make sure it isn't contradicting other sources. Aeren's tale from MoE, and Half-Elf Dragon Marks from PGtE come to mind here. Editing crunch is hard work too (don't get me wrong), but when it comes to mechanical issues, they could throw it to anybody on their team, not just the Eberron gurus. I'm sure WotC has some fine developers who cannot work on Eberron, because they don't know the setting well enough. I know I'd drool at the possiblity of a new PrC for each Dragonmarked House, or for the Goblinoids, Orcs, Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes of Eberron. I really don't like flipping through generic sourcebooks searching for compatability, when I could flip through Eberron books for the same stuff, and it will fit. Given that almost everything is compatable with FR, doesn't that seem to indicate that most players will naturally gravitate towards the setting that can support their character concept gleaned from the complete divine? Generic fantasy may seem a little dry, but it has much better mechanical support. I think Eberron needs more options mechanically. A Soldiers of the Last War book filled with options for goblinoid mercenaries, Valanar riders, Thranish knights, Audairian war mages, and agents of the Emerald Claw, would be a huge seller, and while it may not contribute as much fluff, it certainly wouldn't have to avoid it. Something that fleshes out the people and characters of Eberron, and gives us compatable crunchy material would be great. Forget dervishes, frenzied berserkers, Ur-priests, and radiant servants, we'd have our own cool classes now! I am I nuts for thinking books like this would be a great idea? I loved the little 1-5 page bite-sized entries within the PGtE: if you filled a book with them, and tied them to a nice crunchy PrC wouldn't that be great? Am I crazy for thinking the broad sweeping fluffy stuff is less useful than specific smaller sources focusing on a good mix of (to coin a word) flunchy material? Particularly in a low-level setting, it's less realistic to expect the story to revolve around broad world encompassing forces like a dozen powerful houses, Erandis d'Vol, and the LOBster. Something small based upon the conlict between the Valenar and the hobgoblins would be much more universally applicable. Smaller scale events and conflicts are soo much easier to get into, with a low level party, than huge consipiracies.
Fabius Maximus 02-27-06, 05:37 AM	I mostly agree. I do think, however, that there is much generic material that can be used without much modification. Most of the time, it is only the fluff that has to be altered.
Rechan 02-27-06, 12:10 PM	Not to post to be contrary, but I'm of the opposite stance. Sure, I understand your PoV; Eberron needs Eberron-specific crunch to flesh it out. But honestly, I'm sick of crunch period. Every Book WotC puts out has a chapter for Feats, one for PrCs, one for Magic items and spells, and Monsters. That's 3-4 chapters in a book that's usually 160 pages. That's very little room for fluff. And Eberron thrives by the fluff. I have enough crunch to support me. I'm hungry for details. Besides, the more crunch is added, the more I have to flip through every book to get the details when building a character or playing one, because I have a feat from this book and a PRC from this one and an item from that one... I want WotC to do what they've did with Explorer's Handbook and PGtE; make it crunch light. Perhaps come up with the best ideas and put three or four of them in a book.
LugWrench 02-27-06, 12:29 PM	What about something for Eberron in a sort of 'Myths of Eberron' vein? It would contain very little crunch, maybe a chapter detailing some of the Eberron-specific artifacts from the various legends and mythos. "Legends of Breland", "Stories of Zilargo" and such. Each nation would have three or four stories, along with a few adventure ideas for incorporation into your game. Lots of fluff to give each nation its own heritage and feel, with a few munchy artifacts tossed in at the end, just in case some darned fool decides that they want to be the next Great Thing in Eberron.
Ryuu_Tenshi 02-27-06, 12:52 PM	Not to post to be contrary, but I'm of the opposite stance. Sure, I understand your PoV; Eberron needs Eberron-specific crunch to flesh it out. But honestly, I'm sick of crunch period. Every Book WotC puts out has a chapter for Feats, one for PrCs, one for Magic items and spells, and Monsters. That's 3-4 chapters in a book that's usually 160 pages. That's very little room for fluff. And Eberron thrives by the fluff. I have enough crunch to support me. I'm hungry for details. Besides, the more crunch is added, the more I have to flip through every book to get the details when building a character or playing one, because I have a feat from this book and a PRC from this one and an item from that one... I want WotC to do what they've did with Explorer's Handbook and PGtE; make it crunch light. Perhaps come up with the best ideas and put three or four of them in a book. THANK YOU. I can't begin to describe how sick I am of the damn crunch. When I first bought my DnD books, I was looking for epic adventures across alternate landscapes, NOT endless number-crunching and min-maxing. My fellow players aren't the worst min-maxers but they CAN do that sometimes, and sometimes I feel they focus far less on character background than they do on mechanics. My Zilargo gnome had a full five pages of background written out before I even knew I was going to play in an Eberron campaign, simply becuase I'd been captured by the flavour of Zilargo. In 2e, I'd always played some sort of psychotic blaster (my first character? A CN Wildmage who used the Path Magic rules. And which paths? Wild, Fire, Storm, and Light.) and yet here I was, making up a curious character who had gotten tired of all the backstabbing and politics and gone off to explore and indulge her natural curiosity. I hadn't thought about feats, skills, about ANYTHING. The flute I said was her grandmother's wasn't supposed to have any magical abilities at all, but the DM said that my backstory was so excellent that he was going to give it a few as a reward! I even got Favoured in House for free (but usable with only one person, her younger brother) And yet, the first thing that the Changling wizard said to me when we first leveled up was, "What prestige class are you going for?" Prestige class? You mean those weird flavour things in the DMG? ... Oh. I mean, don't get me wrong. Some of the PrC's are very cool and add excellent flavour, letting you customize some classes. But in other cases, it seems like you almost HAVE to take one. You can't be a straight bard, or a straight wizard, or a straight rogue, you have to take a PrC. this attitude in my party has caused us lots of problems, such as in our Tomb of Horrors game with our theif-acrobat. We'd be much better off if he'd gone straight rogue. Or if he INSISTS on taking a PrC, if he'd gone Dungeon Delver. And the feats! ARRGH! THE FEATS! You can't TAKE THAT MANY FEATS. THERE ARE TOO MANY OPTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO FEATS. My three favourite DnD books thus far have been Draconomicon, Eberron Campaign Setting, and Lords of Madness. And why? Becuase all three have an extremely large amount of fluff and compartivly little crunch. The ECS is 90% fluff, and the crunch it has exists BECUASE of the fluff, not as a weird "We have to have crunch! GET ME CRUNCH!" add-on. Draconomicon and LoM both have crunch as well, but like eberron, it's not crunch for the sake of having crunch, it's "Here's stats for those weird alternate beholders we mentioned a while back." Or, "Here's that dragonslayer you've always wanted." Crunch is well and good, but if you look at the sheer volume of PrC's and feats, it's not like we need any more of it than we have! As to PrC's that don't "fit" in Eberron, I contest that if you use your brain you can easily adapt them. Wildmages, for instance. Perhaps Wildmages came into being from a group of wizards and sorcerers who convened around a manifest zone to Kythri. Or Warmages. Warmages are easily shock-troopers of the Last War. In fact, it's much easier for me to imagine a Warforged in the Warmage class than it is for me to imagine a Warforged wizard! As to Deity specific PrC's? That's also fairly simple. Sacred Warder of Bahamut could become Sacred Warder of the Flame, while Unholy Ravager of Tiamat could become an Unholy Ravager of Khyber. Shining Blade of Heronious? Shining Halberd of Dol Arrah. *shrugs* it just takes careful thought and being VERY careful not to make the class more powerful. usually you're just making "flavour" tweaks. I'm sorry, I'm just glad that Eberron is giving us more fluff. Fluff is what I like. If I can read a DnD book as pleasure reading, it's a good one. I know it's not for everyone, but if you want crunch, adapt it or make it yourself! we dont' need any more.
igotsmeakabob!! 02-27-06, 01:42 PM	Man I LOVE the fluff. Player's Guide to Eberron was great.. a huge amount of fluff with a little crunch.. and it was fluffy crunch in terms of the PrCs... ah man, so good.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-27-06, 04:16 PM	I'd like to see more Eberron-specific crunch, but ... I'm sick of PrCs. They're so rarely done right, and frequently overpowered, and take a lot of work to fit into a campaign even if the balance is perfect. I'm sick of WotC's feats. It itsn't like most products I see with feats aren't any good - Spycraft and Iron Heroes are great examples of feats done right. But I'm tired of feats like Ankheg Ambush. And, of course, crunch can easily take up a lot of space. It it's crunch no one likes, then it's useless. At least if you don't like the fluff, there might be some bit of it you could save; less so with crunch. I think Eberron needs more options mechanically. A Soldiers of the Last War book filled with options for goblinoid mercenaries, Valanar riders, Thranish knights, Audairian war mages, and agents of the Emerald Claw, would be a huge seller, and while it may not contribute as much fluff, it certainly wouldn't have to avoid it. Something that fleshes out the people and characters of Eberron, and gives us compatable crunchy material would be great. Forget dervishes, frenzied berserkers, Ur-priests, and radiant servants, we'd have our own cool classes now! I like this idea... but it really depends on how it is done. I do not want to see a hobgoblin spiked chain wielder PrC, nor do I think Thranish Paladin or Emerald Claw ... Agent ... are really necessary. For an example ... a feat for Emerald Claw followers that has something to do with eternal life could work. (Isn't that the whole point of the Emerald Claw? To live forever? Or am I totally wrong?) I don't think I want to see a feat called "Emerald Poison Strike" that lets you ... um ... do extra poison damage or something like that. That's a feat any assassin could and should have access to. Same with, say, hobgoblin feats. Anyone can use a spiked chain, so there's no need for hobgoblin-specific feats. But a warparty with a couple of hobgoblins using the feat should get the point across that said feat is usually used by hobgoblins.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 02-27-06, 07:06 PM	What about something for Eberron in a sort of 'Myths of Eberron' vein? It would contain very little crunch, maybe a chapter detailing some of the Eberron-specific artifacts from the various legends and mythos. "Legends of Breland", "Stories of Zilargo" and such. Each nation would have three or four stories, along with a few adventure ideas for incorporation into your game. Lots of fluff to give each nation its own heritage and feel, with a few munchy artifacts tossed in at the end, just in case some darned fool decides that they want to be the next Great Thing in Eberron. Seconded! That would be absolutlely incredible! I have to say, I agree on both points of the argument. Eberron needs way more fluff to flesh it out. We need more Eberron specific crunch to give the players more options more fun to play around with. Bottom line? WE NEED MORE EBERRON! I has been out for three years now (or close) and what do we have to show for it? 5 books (not counting the ECS. Or RoE :yuck: ). Okay, I've heard stuff about "Faiths of Eberron" but do we really know when this is going to happen? Meanwhile WoTC has been cranking out crap like the Spell Conpendium, Races of the Dragon (okay, have not had a chance to look through it, but it just seems like an atempt to reel in dragon fanboys. Also, the title is lame), Incarnum (one good thing about this book: Totemist. Give the guy who wrote this a raise. But seriously, almost everything in this book is pretty crappy), and what is is this "Tome of Magic" bollgna? BAH, says I! We need more material. Moreover, this material needs to be consistant. /rant off So...erm...yeah...Go Eberron!
Rechan 02-27-06, 07:23 PM	For an example ... a feat for Emerald Claw followers that has something to do with eternal life could work. (Isn't that the whole point of the Emerald Claw? To live forever? Or am I totally wrong?) The OotEC is actually a terrorist organization. During the start of the Last War, they were a Karnathi-loyal order of Knights that did lots of heroic deeds and were very successful. They also (rumor has it) did lots of sabotage and subterfuge to other nations. However, due to their violent, militant acts as zealots of Karnath, they were denounced by the Karnathi monarchy. The Order is a super-patriotic group who (no one but the upper level knows) is the cat's paw of Vol. So no, the Order itself is, at the surface, about Karnath, and beneath the surface is about doing Vol's work. :) Okay, I've heard stuff about "Faiths of Eberron" but do we really know when this is going to happen? According to Amazon, September (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786939346/ref=sr_11_1/104-5486280-8115141?%5Fencoding=UTF8).
DoveArrow 02-27-06, 07:41 PM	I don't know if I agree with a book entirely composed of crunch for Eberron. I like crunch, don't get me wrong, and while I agree with a lot of your points about including oriental classes and the like, I tend to prefer a balance of both fluff and crunch. Of course, there are exceptions to that rule. Five Nations, for example, is very fluffy, while Magic of Eberron is the other extreme. Both of these are fine publications, but I tend to think of them as the exception, rather than the rule.
Korhal_IV 02-27-06, 08:32 PM	Let's take a look at some of the PrCs already developed specifically for Eberron: Revenant Blade (Valenar) Warforged Juggernaut High Elemental Binder Cannith Wand Adept Gatekeeper Mystagogue Reforged (personal note: ick!) Moonspeaker (Shifter) Weretouched Master (shifter) Dragonmarked Heir Master Inquisitive Extreme Explorer That's off the top of my head. Honestly, that's a fair number of PrCs, and they cover a fairly large spectrum. Not a few of them are wildly overpowered too (c.f. Revenant Blade, Weretouched Master pre-errata, Cannith Wand Adept), enough to make Eberron books a regular fixture over on the CharOps boards. I could come down on either side of this debate, but I doubt that either of the extremes have it right.
nastynate 02-27-06, 09:36 PM	Guys think about it a little more. I just want a balance of Fluff and Cruch, so that we don't have to pull our cruch from generic products that don't fit in a very non-traditional setting. Books that are really fluffy are great for DMs, but not so much so for players. Players can only focus their characters on small things. The broad fluffy topics covering the entire continent are almost useless to them. That's why the format of the PGtE was so great. A PC can build their character around a little section about the Templars of the Silver Flame, without much difficulty. While the format isn't very useful to DMs at first glance, it actually is. Because we build our stories around the concepts of the PCs (at least I hope most of do). Smaller scale fluffy stuff is much more useful over-all, and if there's cruch directly connected to it, than a PC will want to build their characters around it. I know not everybody likes the Revenant Blade (mechanically it's quite powerful), but the Valenar section in the PGtE is like a min-handbook for building an intersting Valenar warrior with ties directly to the setting. That format is so enticing, because it gives you fluffy background material, and mechanics to impliment it in a perfect little package. If a PC draws their character classes from complete warrior and adventurer, they will not have the same direct tie into the setting. And many of them while not off-limits, really have to get mangled to fit in to Eberron flavorfully. DM: You wanna play a samurai / monk / kensai huh? well let me think about it for a while, and maybe we can make it work. In FR this is easy, but in Eberron you'de have to make it some kind of strange goblinoid concoction, and figure out what sort of clan you would be loyal too, where you studied your monastic skills, what role kensai play in Darguun, and yada-yada-yada. The point is it isn't automatic. vs. DM: You wanna play a ranger / fighter / revenant blade? Well you're probably going to be from Valenar, and worship the Keepers of the Past, and you will most likely want to choose your favored enemies from either hobgoblins, warforged, and undead, because those were your greatest enemies on the battlefield during the last war. This stuff is just right there, ready to go. See what I mean? Let's take a look at some of the PrCs already developed specifically for Eberron: Revenant Blade (Valenar) Warforged Juggernaut High Elemental Binder Cannith Wand Adept Gatekeeper Mystagogue Reforged (personal note: ick!) Moonspeaker (Shifter) Weretouched Master (shifter) Dragonmarked Heir Master Inquisitive Extreme Explorer You're right we've got a good number of PrCs from our setting specific books, but that isn't the point. The point is that while FR has a similar number (actually more) they can also use almost every single non-core-generic piece of BS around. They've got way more options for things that fit, than we do, because FR is bland enough to accomodate them. Our setting doesn't have nearly the same number of options unless you want to force the issue, and modify everything. I want things designed (not contrived) for compatability. I want fluff that covers little things. I really like the idea of myths and legends of Eberron. So long as those myths and legends are small local concepts, not epic world spanning events. The legend of the halfling dinosaur whisperer, is much more apealing to me than the legend of the great prophesiers of Argonnessen. I really like the idea of soldiers of the last war, which talks about veterans, warriors, and the people who fought in the war. If it talks about average people and their interactions with the warforged, and their views about the war, then it would be great. If it talks about the kings, and nations, and their rivalries, it is less useful, because PCs cannot build characters or backgrounds around those things, unless they were a great general or warlord during the war. It's obvoisly tempting to write about the big things, because we've still got big questions about the setting as a whole. But if you want to run an adventure the big things won't play a big part of your story. At most you'll tie in a couple people from a dragon marked house, not the full might of House Sivis. Broad tpoics about powerful organizations are the subject of high-level play, not low-level play. Your PCs can learn more about the feel of the setting from the little things, than the things with which they never interact. Remember fluff is only useful if it actually comes into play during your adventures. That's why S:CoT is so good my friends, because we can actually use detailed information about one city. Sharn is just a minor piece of the over-all setting, but it's got detaled connections and descriptions that help us set the stage for our stories. It's a tiny place that brings together the various flavorful elements of Eberron into one city. Just from Sharn you can extrapolate so much about the world, that (as a player)you feel like a part of it. This is what a new setting needs, a feel, mood, and flavor all its own, and you build out from there. No other successful published campaign setting ever from D&D gave you an entire world map to begin with. They all start small (in a cosmopolitan city or country) and build outward from there. Cities bring people, and ideas together; world maps distinguish and seperate them. Keep it small people, and you'll keep it alive, vibrant, and unique.
Edymnion 02-27-06, 09:44 PM	Eberron specific crunch is good, but things should stay like the main text of Players Guide to Eberron has it. Flunchy. As in, they have fluff with a bit of crunch to back it up, not a crunch with a little fluff to back it up. A good Eberron book should be flavor heavy, with only enough crunch to make that flavor work. If its a book about crunch with just enough flavor to grease up the crunch enough that it slides in, then its most likely going to come out wrong. Write the fluff, then make up the crunch to match it. NEVER write the crunch, then try and figure out how to make it fit.
Rechan 02-27-06, 09:50 PM	You're right we've got a good number of PrCs from our setting specific books, but that isn't the point. The point is that while FR has a similar number (actually more) they can also use almost every single non-core-generic piece of BS around. They've got way more options for things that fit, than we do, because FR is bland enough to accomodate them. I'd point out that FR also has more because it's BEEN AROUND LONGER. The FRCS came out at the beginning of 3e. Eberron's been out what, two years?
nastynate 02-27-06, 09:50 PM	Eberron specific crunch is good, but things should stay like the main text of Players Guide to Eberron has it. Flunchy. As in, they have fluff with a bit of crunch to back it up, not a crunch with a little fluff to back it up. A good Eberron book should be flavor heavy, with only enough crunch to make that flavor work. If its a book about crunch with just enough flavor to grease up the crunch enough that it slides in, then its most likely going to come out wrong. Write the fluff, then make up the crunch to match it. NEVER write the crunch, then try and figure out how to make it fit. Exactly! That's why the complete series comes up so short when you try to bring it into Eberron. You grease it up and try to force it where it isn't wanted. <I can draw some terribly kinky parallels with that statement that apply IRL too, but I'm gonna stay away from R rated material> :blush:
Good Agnostic 02-27-06, 11:14 PM	Let me add one more element to the arguments in favor of fluff or, at most, flunch: DM Fatigue. Our party just reached 9th level. The DM is really having to juggle A LOT while he is running the high level and/or high number of opponents and NPC's. It is almost impossible for one person to accurately read, retain, and execute all this crunch. Add all these mechanics juggling to the almost necessity of using battlemats and minis - and we are very surely heading towards wargaming. The DM is maxxed out just handling the mechanics - so descriptions and character suffer. Just one player's observation.
Fabius Maximus 02-28-06, 08:55 AM	Exactly! That's why the complete series comes up so short when you try to bring it into Eberron. You grease it up and try to force it where it isn't wanted. <I can draw some terribly kinky parallels with that statement that apply IRL too, but I'm gonna stay away from R rated material> :blush: :D I'd say the complete series is like the Kamasutra: A lot of interesting positions, but trying them might break something if you're not careful. ;) Stuff from other settings, now that is like what you mentioned.
nastynate 02-28-06, 09:35 AM	I'd say the complete series is like the Kamasutra: A lot of interesting positions, but trying them might break something if you're not careful. But with the Kama Sutra, just the process of trying is fun. making an ass of yourself in intimate situations has got to be the most amusing thing EVAR! "What the...is it supposed to feel like that? Oh who cares!" I was thinking more along the lines of putting things where they don't belong, without greasing them up before hand. Wink, Wink. Going dry isn't really the best option. You heard it here first my friends: "Elven sub-races in Eberron, is like going in dry..." This has gotta be against the CoC :D
Edymnion 02-28-06, 09:55 AM	This has gotta be against the CoC :DYeah, pretty sure it is...