Glyphbooks, Decipher and Comp. Lang. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Glyphbooks, Decipher and Comp. Lang. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Commissar
02-11-06, 09:11 PM Part of the pulpy charm of Eberron is the Indiana Jones-esque notion of explorers trespassing in ancient jungle tombs, armed with quick reflexes, curiosity and a sharp intellect. They find mysterious glyphs on the walls, telling the ancient and epic tale of the place, which they decode using their knowledge of ancient languages and their battered old glyphbook which they keep in their vest pocket... true adventurer-scholars.

Except that a 1st level wizard walks up and casts Comprehend Languages and does it for them, with no need of a glyphbook and no need of a Decipher Script skill.

That's one of the few points at which I find Eberron and D&D don't play well together. Anybody got any experiences on this... how you've handled it in the past, and whether it has come up?

Because for all the skill points you need to dump into Decipher Script to make it worthwhile, why not just take a level of Wizard or Sorcerer? Voila! The perfect linguist... who can also shoot magic missles.
Siran Dunmorgan
02-12-06, 03:08 AM Comprehend languages is a marvelous spell, and among most creatures that have a modern, written alphabet and think more or less that same way as the caster of the spell, it works perfectly, as intended.

The description of the comprehend languages spell states thatThe ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning.A modern Brelish wizard, for example, finding a text written in that odd language used by the Sarlonan refugees that arrived in the Shadow Marches a thousand years ago would have no problem: the linguistic roots of the language are close enough to modern common that the literal meaning of the text is comprehensible to him.

The problem is that the giants of ancient Xen'drik, or the dragons, even today, don't think the same way that modern humans do, and the literal meaning of their text doesn't necessarily mean what the wizard might think.

For example, one might attempt to translate a text from the ancient form of written Cor'dran into Common. Unfortunately, the written form of ancient Cor'dran consisted of a series of rebus-like glyphs, the literal meaning of which is almost never what the writer intended. For example one might encounter a glyph which resembles a small tree with thick branches and a fanged mouth in the trunk.

The comprehend languages spell will provide the wizard with the literal meaning "fanged tree", as in "The priest accompanied the noble youths to the tree with the fanged mouth."

The glyphbook, on the other hand, will provide the reader with the understanding that the glyph "fanged tree" is a rebus for the name of a prominent city just outside the capital district.[1]

Other languages have similar issues: one of the oldest known languages of ancient Sarlona has and expression that translates literally as "to become yellowish green", as in "The king's cup-bearer was found to have become yellowish green," and that's the translation that will be read by the comprehend languages spell.[2]

What it means is that he died, and his body was subject to decay, i.e., became putrefied, and his body turned color.

The consequence of this is that well-prepared parties in Xen'drik, or among the storied ruins of Dhakaan, carries with them both scrolls of comprehend languages, and a glyphbook.

—Siran Dunmorgan

[1] I have here transplanted onto the Cor'dran Empire something of the attributes of the real-world Aztec empire; the writing system of the Aztecs did in fact employ exactly this scheme: the name of the city Ahuacatlan was written as a picture of an avocado tree with a small fanged mouth.

Similarly, the name of the city of Coatzinco was written as the glyph of a snake over a man's buttocks: the comprehend languages spell would reveal the literal meaning "snake buttocks", and miss the implied meaning "Little Coatlan", where Coatlan itself was a larger nearby city, the name of which means "abundant with coatl", i.e., serpents.

[2] The real world language serving as the model here is classical Akkadian.
Missekat
02-12-06, 08:12 AM Hmm.. this is disturbing.

I know I'm nor the only girl in here, but in context with the above post, I have a question for my fellow female gamers:

Am I the only one who find this level of Geekiness, (meant in a positive way), and obscure knowledge adorable??
Mula
02-12-06, 08:17 AM I'm a guy and I find that pretty adorable.

Great stuff, Siran!
Commissar
02-12-06, 10:23 PM The consequence of this is that well-prepared parties in Xen'drik, or among the storied ruins of Dhakaan, carries with them both scrolls of comprehend languages, and a glyphbook.

Good points, tovarisch. The working class appreciates your epigraphy skills. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Commissar 02-11-06, 09:11 PM	Part of the pulpy charm of Eberron is the Indiana Jones-esque notion of explorers trespassing in ancient jungle tombs, armed with quick reflexes, curiosity and a sharp intellect. They find mysterious glyphs on the walls, telling the ancient and epic tale of the place, which they decode using their knowledge of ancient languages and their battered old glyphbook which they keep in their vest pocket... true adventurer-scholars. Except that a 1st level wizard walks up and casts Comprehend Languages and does it for them, with no need of a glyphbook and no need of a Decipher Script skill. That's one of the few points at which I find Eberron and D&D don't play well together. Anybody got any experiences on this... how you've handled it in the past, and whether it has come up? Because for all the skill points you need to dump into Decipher Script to make it worthwhile, why not just take a level of Wizard or Sorcerer? Voila! The perfect linguist... who can also shoot magic missles.
Siran Dunmorgan 02-12-06, 03:08 AM	Comprehend languages is a marvelous spell, and among most creatures that have a modern, written alphabet and think more or less that same way as the caster of the spell, it works perfectly, as intended. The description of the comprehend languages spell states thatThe ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning.A modern Brelish wizard, for example, finding a text written in that odd language used by the Sarlonan refugees that arrived in the Shadow Marches a thousand years ago would have no problem: the linguistic roots of the language are close enough to modern common that the literal meaning of the text is comprehensible to him. The problem is that the giants of ancient Xen'drik, or the dragons, even today, don't think the same way that modern humans do, and the literal meaning of their text doesn't necessarily mean what the wizard might think. For example, one might attempt to translate a text from the ancient form of written Cor'dran into Common. Unfortunately, the written form of ancient Cor'dran consisted of a series of rebus-like glyphs, the literal meaning of which is almost never what the writer intended. For example one might encounter a glyph which resembles a small tree with thick branches and a fanged mouth in the trunk. The comprehend languages spell will provide the wizard with the literal meaning "fanged tree", as in "The priest accompanied the noble youths to the tree with the fanged mouth." The glyphbook, on the other hand, will provide the reader with the understanding that the glyph "fanged tree" is a rebus for the name of a prominent city just outside the capital district.[1] Other languages have similar issues: one of the oldest known languages of ancient Sarlona has and expression that translates literally as "to become yellowish green", as in "The king's cup-bearer was found to have become yellowish green," and that's the translation that will be read by the comprehend languages spell.[2] What it means is that he died, and his body was subject to decay, i.e., became putrefied, and his body turned color. The consequence of this is that well-prepared parties in Xen'drik, or among the storied ruins of Dhakaan, carries with them both scrolls of comprehend languages, and a glyphbook. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] I have here transplanted onto the Cor'dran Empire something of the attributes of the real-world Aztec empire; the writing system of the Aztecs did in fact employ exactly this scheme: the name of the city Ahuacatlan was written as a picture of an avocado tree with a small fanged mouth. Similarly, the name of the city of Coatzinco was written as the glyph of a snake over a man's buttocks: the comprehend languages spell would reveal the literal meaning "snake buttocks", and miss the implied meaning "Little Coatlan", where Coatlan itself was a larger nearby city, the name of which means "abundant with coatl", i.e., serpents. [2] The real world language serving as the model here is classical Akkadian.
Missekat 02-12-06, 08:12 AM	Hmm.. this is disturbing. I know I'm nor the only girl in here, but in context with the above post, I have a question for my fellow female gamers: Am I the only one who find this level of Geekiness, (meant in a positive way), and obscure knowledge adorable??
Mula 02-12-06, 08:17 AM	I'm a guy and I find that pretty adorable. Great stuff, Siran!
Commissar 02-12-06, 10:23 PM	The consequence of this is that well-prepared parties in Xen'drik, or among the storied ruins of Dhakaan, carries with them both scrolls of comprehend languages, and a glyphbook. Good points, tovarisch. The working class appreciates your epigraphy skills. ;)