Goblins, barghests, and lycanthropes, oh my! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Goblins, barghests, and lycanthropes, oh my! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nived
09-15-06, 01:34 AM So I was pondering the place of the barghest in Eberron, and it's relationship to the goblin empires, and the lycanthropes.

Its an extraplanar outsider that shapechanges between a goblin, a wolf, and a goblin/wolf hybrid.

Its relation to the goblinoid races is pretty direct, its always been described as a medium or large goblinoid that it shapechages into, the lycanthrope connection is more infered by the forms it can take.

Perhaps its come kind of forerunner to the lycanthrope races, or at least the werewolf, or perhaps at least rumored to be. If the Silver Flame made a connection (real or imagined) between these evil outsiders and lycanthropes could have been one of the 'reasons' for the purge.

More importantly I wonder the connection to the goblin empires. Was this a boogieman that haunted the folklore of the Dhakaan? A beast that could take their form and devour their young (and anyone else for that matter).

I'm just wondering if anyone else has given this thought, or other opinions on the matter.
Bocamb
09-15-06, 09:15 AM More importantly I wonder the connection to the goblin empires. Was this a boogieman that haunted the folklore of the Dhakaan? A beast that could take their form and devour their young (and anyone else for that matter).

I'm just wondering if anyone else has given this thought, or other opinions on the matter.

In my campaign, I decided that according to the goblinoid bards, barghests are the result of a curse laid on fratricides by the dark six (in my campaign, the mockery, but the shadow is just as good as any deity to blame) during the civil wars following the Daelkyr invasion.

The truth of the matter? I haven't decided beyond what the bards say.
eehamburg
09-15-06, 09:53 AM Wouldn't the barghest be extinct due to the Lyncanthropic Purges of the Silver Flame?
DragonWatcher
09-15-06, 10:06 AM Nah... werewolves aren't extinct, and the SF was actually targetting them. ;)

While barghest are certainly shapeshifters, they aren't lycanthropes. Not that I would expect this to stop the SF from lumping them into the purge (as I doubt that they really stopped to ask, "Um... pardon me, are you a goblin werewolf or a barghest" as five other warriors of Flame hold flaming silver weapons, whistling innocently behind him). I haven't given a lot of thought as to how I will use them yet, but I will definitely be keeping them separate from lycanthropes. My initial thought is to make them a clan of goblins that made a pact with one of the Rajahs... pledging their souls in exchange for dark powers that would make them the ultimate hunters. Make them native outsiders, like the rakshasa, and make them legends even among the goblins that they used to scare little hobgoblin children into taking their flail training seriously. :)
The White Sorcerer
09-15-06, 10:19 AM Wouldn't the barghest be extinct due to the Lyncanthropic Purges of the Silver Flame?
Considering that the Church propably didn't extend the Inquisition to Mabar, no.
Nived
09-15-06, 11:38 AM Good eyes TWS, I did glance at the ECS last night to see if they were mentioned at all in the iconic monster section (they're not), but I neglected to check the planes descriptions to find their native plane. Mabar eh? Well that's a handy piece of knowledge but it still leaves some room for interpretation.

Even if there is no direct connection between the lycanthropes whose curse seems to have originated from Lamannia, you gotta admit, on those dark nights every 5 years there had to be a few surprised Silver crusaders when their silver weapons did nothing to the 'goblin werewolves'.

Hrm, with the negative energy connection (now established by Mabar) I can imagine the dirgesingers of the Dhakaan telling dark 'fairy' tales about how the negative emotions goblins feel (which for them would be things like disorder, lack of loyalty or obidience) spawn these things in the dark reaches of Mabar, or at least that they come to feed on little goblins that don't embody the 'positive' aspects of Goblinoid society.
eehamburg
09-15-06, 11:42 AM Nived:

Now that sounds like that start to an interesting backstory.
Nived
09-15-06, 12:34 PM Well I'm planning on running my group up against a pack, I've been looking at their spell like abilities and planning tactics. With the abilities of levitate, blink, dimention door, and the ability to pass without trace in wolf form they're going to be smart and hit and run, hit and run, hit and run. What I'm hoping to do is string my players along as long as I can before they realize in or out of game what they are.

I like to extensively use knowledge checks in my games so I was trying to come up with various ways to give them clues, or false clues.

The fun part is none of them have Knowledge (the planes) so there'll be no direct answer.

Knowledge (Nature) checks for spurious information on Worgs, Winter Wolves, and Lycanthropes.

Knowledge (Religion) will gain some information from The Purge about these goblin werewolves that seemed resistant to silver.

A Spot (vs Disguise) and a good Knowledge (Local) will tell them they're not true goblins, hobgoblins, or bugbears.

A good Knowledge (History) check might let them remember some goblin fairytale they heard (similar to what I wrote above).

I'm really curious how long I can string them along with a MM creature before they see what it is. I have a habit of using obscure creatures or monsters from Dragon, so I'm just trying to mess with them.
eehamburg
09-15-06, 12:42 PM does their bite cause any disease/curse?
Nived
09-15-06, 12:56 PM No it doesn't, but the two frontliners in my group are a Paladin, and an ex-paladin (LN) Bone Knight. Each are immune to disease. So I can still toy with them.

"Roll for- oh that's right you wouldn't have to."

Or would that make me an evil DM?
DragonWatcher
09-15-06, 01:07 PM Or would that make me an evil DM?

That would make you... my hero. ;)
Kinger
09-15-06, 01:18 PM I've always liked the idea of goblinoid stories regularly employing the Big Bad Barghest as a primary antagonist.

Y'know, the Three Little Goblins go out into the world and make themselves houses. The First Little goblin was a really nice guy, and when there was a knock on his door he let the stranger in without seeing who it was. The stranger ate him.

The Second Little Goblin heard a knock on his door, and checked to see who it was, first. Seeing another goblin he opened the door for the stranger and let him in. The stranger ate him too.

The Third Little Goblin heard a knock on his door, and checked to see who it was as well. He didn't recognized the stranger, so he didn't let him in. The Big Bad Barghest got really mad, and huffed and puffed with fury, but the Third Little Goblin kept his door shut until the Big Bad Barghest went away.

The End.

Of course, the Bid Bad Barghest would have just Dimension Doored himself inside and eaten the Third Little Goblin, but that wouldn't make a very good cautionary tale, now would it?
eehamburg
09-15-06, 01:29 PM I've always liked the idea of goblinoid stories regularly employing the Big Bad Barghest as a primary antagonist.

Y'know, the Three Little Goblins go out into the world and make themselves houses. The First Little goblin was a really nice guy, and when there was a knock on his door he let the stranger in without seeing who it was. The stranger ate him.

The Second Little Goblin heard a knock on his door, and checked to see who it was, first. Seeing another goblin he opened the door for the stranger and let him in. The stranger ate him too.

The Third Little Goblin heard a knock on his door, and checked to see who it was as well. He didn't recognized the stranger, so he didn't let him in. The Big Bad Barghest got really mad, and huffed and puffed with fury, but the Third Little Goblin kept his door shut until the Big Bad Barghest went away.

The End.

Of course, the Bid Bad Barghest would have just Dimension Doored himself inside and eaten the Third Little Goblin, but that wouldn't make a very good cautionary tale, now would it?

That has got to be the sweetest cutest children's tale that I have ever heard ... it brings a tear to my eye. :weep:

BTW .. it was a good adaptation... but if you think that it really brought a tear to my eye ... well ...
Nived
09-15-06, 01:54 PM The Big Bad Barghest...

That is brilliant, I'm going to steal it :D

With any luck they'll think they can barricade themselves inside to rest up... and just as they're getting ready to sleep, the barghests blink or DD in.
ImmortalBlueMage
09-15-06, 11:30 PM Of course, the Bid Bad Barghest would have just Dimension Doored himself inside and eaten the Third Little Goblin, but that wouldn't make a very good cautionary tale, now would it?

It would caution them to make sure to build a house with an anti-magic field in it. :P I, for one, would feel very forewarned by such a tale.

I've always liked the dark, backwoods myth flavor of the Barghest, and the idea of Barghests as Goblin boogeymen is interesting.
Nived
09-20-06, 04:14 PM Ran the adventure with the barghest featuring as my main antagonists. I must say that it went well, as well as I could have hoped for.

It wasn't till just before the 'boss fight' with the greater barghest and his surviving minions that the party realized what they were. I originally had them attack in their wolf forms. Over the course of several hit and runs I expanded their use of their spell like abilities. First was just a wolf attack, when the barghests actually got hurt (the party had magic weapons) they dimention doored out. The next time they used rage and blink when they attacked and managed to mess up the party pretty good. Third attack (with the full pack minus the greater barghest leader) they actually started shapechanging into their true 'hybrid' form, while blinking, raging, and dropping crushing dispair. This time they really managed hurt the party through the party did manage to kill some of the barghests. Using the creepy outsiders corpse destruction thing from the Fiendish codex the party was really darn confused by this point. They went down to the town after the wounded remaining ones, and this is when they encountered their first 'goblin'. Tense negotiations ended quick with the warlock trying to snipe him. The goblin blinked into a building raged, shapeshanged, levitated above the door, so when the party kicked their way in he dropped on them. He died and the party was pretty messed up. Now only two of 'the pack' were left and their leader. One of the remaining barghests let itself be seen blinking into a building. This point I had the one that had knowledge history roll and I told the fairytale. Several of the long time players smacked their heads for not seeing it. So they kicked in the door ready to kill the last two.

Well the greater barghest had them all hid in an invisibility sphere, mass enlarged, mass bullstrengthed, raged, blinking... Yeah it was brutal. The two tanks managed to both survive with 3 hp (I don't know how that worked out) the rogue was down to -8, and the warlock... well he stayed the heck out of melee so he still only had his wounds from earlier.

A satisfying night.

Incorrect guesses from the party.
The villiagers have been turned into wolves!
The one family (the first one with reported missing persons) is all werewolves.
Vampires did it (guessed after they found the office of the local priest barricaded from the inside, the windows closed, and blood splattered all over with no sign of a body.)
Worgs (followed one round later by "wait worgs can't teleport".)
"We already guessed and the DM is just making stuff up now so we're wrong!"
"Goblin werewolves? What are they doing so far north?"

So all in all I enjoyed it and my group seemed to enjoy it.
eehamburg
09-20-06, 04:56 PM and what happened after that?
Nived
09-20-06, 05:40 PM Hrm? Well this takes a bit of explaining. The party picked themselves up, patched themselves up, set up for the night. The paladin had an amusing moment of roleplay, tapped out of healing magic and lay on hands and only having 3 hp he declared he was just going to sit down, and was too darn tired and hurt to unlock his locked gauntlet, he was just going to sit there. After heal checks and bed rest, and a full round of healing the next morning (even though I messed with them but having them still roll spot and listen checks durring the watches). After a full round of healing in the morning they continued a systematic search for survivors, or at least the bodies. They found a hidden trapdoor celler in the church (they never searched the hall before) which lead down to the celler, it was trapped but the rogue cleared it.

In the basement they found the pack's horde (hey it does say double standard treasure), and their remaining food supply, the survivors of the town. Even though the description in the monster manual says they don't like a fight, I figured if they need to eat things with higher HD than them to advance, they'd naturally eat the strongest first. All that was left was the welps, children. Tied up with a couple who had been kept under charms to keep the rest fed and alive. All their parents had been killed and eaten by the pack. Well the party took their remaining horses and found a wagon they got in working order and started heading back to Rekkenmark with the orphans. I called it there so I could calculate the XP and figure out what was in the horde, then we got talking about other stuff and it got late so we just called the game. Next time I'll either start with an encounter in the wilderness or let them get the kids back safely.

Right now I'm trying to think of the official state 'coverup' story. I doubt Karrnath wants it widely known the entire adult population of a small town was slaughted by 'demons'.
Arz
09-20-06, 06:28 PM You could also have the bards cite the barghest as proof of the dominance of Dhakaan. The planes act as balance and reflection of the world of Eberon. The enduring goblin form of the barghest points towards the true power of the goblin destiny. Surely imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Also this could perhaps be used as a portent of the eventual reclamation of the empire. You gotta manipulate if you wanna matriculate through a bardic college.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nived 09-15-06, 01:34 AM	So I was pondering the place of the barghest in Eberron, and it's relationship to the goblin empires, and the lycanthropes. Its an extraplanar outsider that shapechanges between a goblin, a wolf, and a goblin/wolf hybrid. Its relation to the goblinoid races is pretty direct, its always been described as a medium or large goblinoid that it shapechages into, the lycanthrope connection is more infered by the forms it can take. Perhaps its come kind of forerunner to the lycanthrope races, or at least the werewolf, or perhaps at least rumored to be. If the Silver Flame made a connection (real or imagined) between these evil outsiders and lycanthropes could have been one of the 'reasons' for the purge. More importantly I wonder the connection to the goblin empires. Was this a boogieman that haunted the folklore of the Dhakaan? A beast that could take their form and devour their young (and anyone else for that matter). I'm just wondering if anyone else has given this thought, or other opinions on the matter.
Bocamb 09-15-06, 09:15 AM	More importantly I wonder the connection to the goblin empires. Was this a boogieman that haunted the folklore of the Dhakaan? A beast that could take their form and devour their young (and anyone else for that matter). I'm just wondering if anyone else has given this thought, or other opinions on the matter. In my campaign, I decided that according to the goblinoid bards, barghests are the result of a curse laid on fratricides by the dark six (in my campaign, the mockery, but the shadow is just as good as any deity to blame) during the civil wars following the Daelkyr invasion. The truth of the matter? I haven't decided beyond what the bards say.
eehamburg 09-15-06, 09:53 AM	Wouldn't the barghest be extinct due to the Lyncanthropic Purges of the Silver Flame?
DragonWatcher 09-15-06, 10:06 AM	Nah... werewolves aren't extinct, and the SF was actually targetting them. ;) While barghest are certainly shapeshifters, they aren't lycanthropes. Not that I would expect this to stop the SF from lumping them into the purge (as I doubt that they really stopped to ask, "Um... pardon me, are you a goblin werewolf or a barghest" as five other warriors of Flame hold flaming silver weapons, whistling innocently behind him). I haven't given a lot of thought as to how I will use them yet, but I will definitely be keeping them separate from lycanthropes. My initial thought is to make them a clan of goblins that made a pact with one of the Rajahs... pledging their souls in exchange for dark powers that would make them the ultimate hunters. Make them native outsiders, like the rakshasa, and make them legends even among the goblins that they used to scare little hobgoblin children into taking their flail training seriously. :)
The White Sorcerer 09-15-06, 10:19 AM	Wouldn't the barghest be extinct due to the Lyncanthropic Purges of the Silver Flame? Considering that the Church propably didn't extend the Inquisition to Mabar, no.
Nived 09-15-06, 11:38 AM	Good eyes TWS, I did glance at the ECS last night to see if they were mentioned at all in the iconic monster section (they're not), but I neglected to check the planes descriptions to find their native plane. Mabar eh? Well that's a handy piece of knowledge but it still leaves some room for interpretation. Even if there is no direct connection between the lycanthropes whose curse seems to have originated from Lamannia, you gotta admit, on those dark nights every 5 years there had to be a few surprised Silver crusaders when their silver weapons did nothing to the 'goblin werewolves'. Hrm, with the negative energy connection (now established by Mabar) I can imagine the dirgesingers of the Dhakaan telling dark 'fairy' tales about how the negative emotions goblins feel (which for them would be things like disorder, lack of loyalty or obidience) spawn these things in the dark reaches of Mabar, or at least that they come to feed on little goblins that don't embody the 'positive' aspects of Goblinoid society.
eehamburg 09-15-06, 11:42 AM	Nived: Now that sounds like that start to an interesting backstory.
Nived 09-15-06, 12:34 PM	Well I'm planning on running my group up against a pack, I've been looking at their spell like abilities and planning tactics. With the abilities of levitate, blink, dimention door, and the ability to pass without trace in wolf form they're going to be smart and hit and run, hit and run, hit and run. What I'm hoping to do is string my players along as long as I can before they realize in or out of game what they are. I like to extensively use knowledge checks in my games so I was trying to come up with various ways to give them clues, or false clues. The fun part is none of them have Knowledge (the planes) so there'll be no direct answer. Knowledge (Nature) checks for spurious information on Worgs, Winter Wolves, and Lycanthropes. Knowledge (Religion) will gain some information from The Purge about these goblin werewolves that seemed resistant to silver. A Spot (vs Disguise) and a good Knowledge (Local) will tell them they're not true goblins, hobgoblins, or bugbears. A good Knowledge (History) check might let them remember some goblin fairytale they heard (similar to what I wrote above). I'm really curious how long I can string them along with a MM creature before they see what it is. I have a habit of using obscure creatures or monsters from Dragon, so I'm just trying to mess with them.
eehamburg 09-15-06, 12:42 PM	does their bite cause any disease/curse?
Nived 09-15-06, 12:56 PM	No it doesn't, but the two frontliners in my group are a Paladin, and an ex-paladin (LN) Bone Knight. Each are immune to disease. So I can still toy with them. "Roll for- oh that's right you wouldn't have to." Or would that make me an evil DM?
DragonWatcher 09-15-06, 01:07 PM	Or would that make me an evil DM? That would make you... my hero. ;)
Kinger 09-15-06, 01:18 PM	I've always liked the idea of goblinoid stories regularly employing the Big Bad Barghest as a primary antagonist. Y'know, the Three Little Goblins go out into the world and make themselves houses. The First Little goblin was a really nice guy, and when there was a knock on his door he let the stranger in without seeing who it was. The stranger ate him. The Second Little Goblin heard a knock on his door, and checked to see who it was, first. Seeing another goblin he opened the door for the stranger and let him in. The stranger ate him too. The Third Little Goblin heard a knock on his door, and checked to see who it was as well. He didn't recognized the stranger, so he didn't let him in. The Big Bad Barghest got really mad, and huffed and puffed with fury, but the Third Little Goblin kept his door shut until the Big Bad Barghest went away. The End. Of course, the Bid Bad Barghest would have just Dimension Doored himself inside and eaten the Third Little Goblin, but that wouldn't make a very good cautionary tale, now would it?
eehamburg 09-15-06, 01:29 PM	I've always liked the idea of goblinoid stories regularly employing the Big Bad Barghest as a primary antagonist. Y'know, the Three Little Goblins go out into the world and make themselves houses. The First Little goblin was a really nice guy, and when there was a knock on his door he let the stranger in without seeing who it was. The stranger ate him. The Second Little Goblin heard a knock on his door, and checked to see who it was, first. Seeing another goblin he opened the door for the stranger and let him in. The stranger ate him too. The Third Little Goblin heard a knock on his door, and checked to see who it was as well. He didn't recognized the stranger, so he didn't let him in. The Big Bad Barghest got really mad, and huffed and puffed with fury, but the Third Little Goblin kept his door shut until the Big Bad Barghest went away. The End. Of course, the Bid Bad Barghest would have just Dimension Doored himself inside and eaten the Third Little Goblin, but that wouldn't make a very good cautionary tale, now would it? That has got to be the sweetest cutest children's tale that I have ever heard ... it brings a tear to my eye. :weep: BTW .. it was a good adaptation... but if you think that it really brought a tear to my eye ... well ...
Nived 09-15-06, 01:54 PM	The Big Bad Barghest... That is brilliant, I'm going to steal it :D With any luck they'll think they can barricade themselves inside to rest up... and just as they're getting ready to sleep, the barghests blink or DD in.
ImmortalBlueMage 09-15-06, 11:30 PM	Of course, the Bid Bad Barghest would have just Dimension Doored himself inside and eaten the Third Little Goblin, but that wouldn't make a very good cautionary tale, now would it? It would caution them to make sure to build a house with an anti-magic field in it. :P I, for one, would feel very forewarned by such a tale. I've always liked the dark, backwoods myth flavor of the Barghest, and the idea of Barghests as Goblin boogeymen is interesting.
Nived 09-20-06, 04:14 PM	Ran the adventure with the barghest featuring as my main antagonists. I must say that it went well, as well as I could have hoped for. It wasn't till just before the 'boss fight' with the greater barghest and his surviving minions that the party realized what they were. I originally had them attack in their wolf forms. Over the course of several hit and runs I expanded their use of their spell like abilities. First was just a wolf attack, when the barghests actually got hurt (the party had magic weapons) they dimention doored out. The next time they used rage and blink when they attacked and managed to mess up the party pretty good. Third attack (with the full pack minus the greater barghest leader) they actually started shapechanging into their true 'hybrid' form, while blinking, raging, and dropping crushing dispair. This time they really managed hurt the party through the party did manage to kill some of the barghests. Using the creepy outsiders corpse destruction thing from the Fiendish codex the party was really darn confused by this point. They went down to the town after the wounded remaining ones, and this is when they encountered their first 'goblin'. Tense negotiations ended quick with the warlock trying to snipe him. The goblin blinked into a building raged, shapeshanged, levitated above the door, so when the party kicked their way in he dropped on them. He died and the party was pretty messed up. Now only two of 'the pack' were left and their leader. One of the remaining barghests let itself be seen blinking into a building. This point I had the one that had knowledge history roll and I told the fairytale. Several of the long time players smacked their heads for not seeing it. So they kicked in the door ready to kill the last two. Well the greater barghest had them all hid in an invisibility sphere, mass enlarged, mass bullstrengthed, raged, blinking... Yeah it was brutal. The two tanks managed to both survive with 3 hp (I don't know how that worked out) the rogue was down to -8, and the warlock... well he stayed the heck out of melee so he still only had his wounds from earlier. A satisfying night. Incorrect guesses from the party. The villiagers have been turned into wolves! The one family (the first one with reported missing persons) is all werewolves. Vampires did it (guessed after they found the office of the local priest barricaded from the inside, the windows closed, and blood splattered all over with no sign of a body.) Worgs (followed one round later by "wait worgs can't teleport".) "We already guessed and the DM is just making stuff up now so we're wrong!" "Goblin werewolves? What are they doing so far north?" So all in all I enjoyed it and my group seemed to enjoy it.
eehamburg 09-20-06, 04:56 PM	and what happened after that?
Nived 09-20-06, 05:40 PM	Hrm? Well this takes a bit of explaining. The party picked themselves up, patched themselves up, set up for the night. The paladin had an amusing moment of roleplay, tapped out of healing magic and lay on hands and only having 3 hp he declared he was just going to sit down, and was too darn tired and hurt to unlock his locked gauntlet, he was just going to sit there. After heal checks and bed rest, and a full round of healing the next morning (even though I messed with them but having them still roll spot and listen checks durring the watches). After a full round of healing in the morning they continued a systematic search for survivors, or at least the bodies. They found a hidden trapdoor celler in the church (they never searched the hall before) which lead down to the celler, it was trapped but the rogue cleared it. In the basement they found the pack's horde (hey it does say double standard treasure), and their remaining food supply, the survivors of the town. Even though the description in the monster manual says they don't like a fight, I figured if they need to eat things with higher HD than them to advance, they'd naturally eat the strongest first. All that was left was the welps, children. Tied up with a couple who had been kept under charms to keep the rest fed and alive. All their parents had been killed and eaten by the pack. Well the party took their remaining horses and found a wagon they got in working order and started heading back to Rekkenmark with the orphans. I called it there so I could calculate the XP and figure out what was in the horde, then we got talking about other stuff and it got late so we just called the game. Next time I'll either start with an encounter in the wilderness or let them get the kids back safely. Right now I'm trying to think of the official state 'coverup' story. I doubt Karrnath wants it widely known the entire adult population of a small town was slaughted by 'demons'.
Arz 09-20-06, 06:28 PM	You could also have the bards cite the barghest as proof of the dominance of Dhakaan. The planes act as balance and reflection of the world of Eberon. The enduring goblin form of the barghest points towards the true power of the goblin destiny. Surely imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Also this could perhaps be used as a portent of the eventual reclamation of the empire. You gotta manipulate if you wanna matriculate through a bardic college.