Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evilmonster 01-24-07, 12:06 AM	What with all the moral ambiguity the setting suggests how important are alignments anymore? I'm not perposing to drop that aspect of the game, I'm only looking for opinions, views and discussion. Some topics of concern: 1) Paladins and detecting evil. Should there be any abosolute evil to detect or should there be a kind of sliding scail they can regester, "Mostly evil, but with a softspot we might exploit." 2) Would anymember of any church organazition find any trouble if, for whatever reason, a Detect Alignment spell showed them to be evil. 3) Should any players assume that because a person 'checked' as Lawful Good that he is in fact a good guy. On the other side, should a confermed Evil person be dismised out of hand as a villian? 4) In all these shades of grey how would a CE cleric of the Silver Flame (for example only) react if told of his alignment by a trusted paladin of the faith? a) "Perhaps so, my child. But sometimes one must strike from the dark to fight the night." b) "You're lieing! You're just making that up to silance my vote on the table!" c) "By the flame, what have I become? Please help me, Sir Knight, to change my ways." 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone?
Charles Phipps 01-24-07, 12:18 AM	1. I tend to view that as how to use Detect Evil anyway. 2. All Good Aligned Religion Churchmen show up as good even if Evil. 3. In general, they would react the same way if we said "The person will act in accordance with his best intentions." 4. He would be glad he's Lawful Good. Then kill him for Blasphemy and sacrifice the paladin's child on a bloodstained alter. 5. Not really. No one condones murder for beliefs and attitudes in most games. Only if they did something first.
Paulon 01-24-07, 12:23 AM	What with all the moral ambiguity the setting suggests how important are alignments anymore? I'm not perposing to drop that aspect of the game, I'm only looking for opinions, views and discussion. Sounds like a good topic to watch. 3) Should any players assume that because a person 'checked' as Lawful Good that he is in fact a good guy. On the other side, should a confermed Evil person be dismised out of hand as a villian? The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Someone could be Good and believe they're doing the right thing, when what they're doing is in actuality a major villain class blunder. Contrariwise, someone can be evil and still be doing the right thing. 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone? And how do you tell a Paladin's statement from that of someone who needs to be locked up by the men in white coats? If you can't prove they've done something, it's decidedly a bad idea to kill them 'just because they're evil'.
mahavira 01-24-07, 12:26 AM	To be honest, it's never been an issue to me. Detect evil loses a lot of its bite if you make a certain percentage of normal people evil. Farmer Bob is a bad person: he pinches pennies till they scream and would refuse a dying man in the desert so much as a sip of water, and would indeed enjoy doing so. He also hasn't actually done anything that would bring him to the law's attention and smiting him would get the Paladin in trouble. Sheriff Jones is also a bad person. He loves his job because he gets to harass his social inferiors, and use mildly excessive force on pickpockets and the like. Smiting him will get you hanged, and he fights bravely in defense of his town, as it's the source of his position. Innkeeper Alice is a bitter, angry woman who hates her son (perhaps he's the product of rape). She wilfully neglects him and punishes him ferociously for any slight. She is just within the accepted range of parental punishments for wrongdoing, and the neglect isn't enough for any legal sanction. A paladin might give her a stern talking to, or perhaps refer the child to an apprenticeship, but smiting her is out of the question. I also don't give Paladins official ID or anything, so anyone can claim to be a paladin and the authorities have seen enough lunatics and frauds that they take "but god told me he's evil" with a roll of the eyes, and any crimes based on such a claim are fully prosecuted. As to what the evil Flame cleric might say, any of the below are possible (though probably not repentance): if his conviction is strong enough that he still gets spells it's doubtful some imposter jealous of his position (aka a Paladin or LG cleric) could change his mind (a CE cleric of a LG faith clearly has enormous powers of self delusion).
goblin_pride 01-24-07, 12:28 AM	I tend to be really vague when it comes to detect evil. Most people ping on the grey area between good and evil when using that particular spell. Even some Paladins don't return completely good responses from it. A paladin that's quick to search the corpses of fallen enemies sometimes trips off the evil-o-meter of his fellows for the greed he's showing as he looks for valuables. In your example, if the Paladin shuns the cleric for popping up evil, he'll start showing signs of evil to his brother paladins for making that judgement instead of trying to help the cleric regain the path of righteousness. Just my two bits, but I find the paladin the best opportunity for roleplaying and love to let them see all the little evils that exist, even within the good people.
Nived 01-24-07, 12:31 AM	1: I think of detecting evil a lot like jedi sensing the darkside. That guy is slightly evil, that guy is really evil, there is evil in that guys heart. Kinda thing. I think the rules back me up but I haven't read the detect evil spell in awhile. 2: Without stateing real world examples I imagine that the first reaction of a good cleric who find out his priestly brother is evil would be counciling. Trying to sway him back to the light... totally corrupt clerics are probably consious of their detecting as evil and use Undetectable Alignment deluding themselves into believing they're still serving the greater good. 3: Here's an example. Jim was never hugged enough as a kid. Jim's a jerk. He's greedy, he's rude, he's selfish, he's mean. Jim is neutral evil. He has never and probably will never kill anyone, he's just a prick. If a paladin detects evil Jim is going to set it off... has Jim done anything to deserve getting a sword through his chest? Or be arrested? I doubt it, not even if he lived in Flamekeep. 4: He's probably justify it to himself as whatever caused him to fall was the only course of action and he's sure he was right, and probably that he needs to continue his work. He'll probably try his darnest to convice the paladin that he's sorry and he's remoseful that he need 'help' then cast undetectable alignment on himself later when convient. Later telling the paladin "oh you saved me" all the while convinced that his evil acts are justified for the 'greater good'. 5: No... see #3
ArcTan 01-24-07, 04:52 AM	What with all the moral ambiguity the setting suggests how important are alignments anymore? I'm not perposing to drop that aspect of the game, I'm only looking for opinions, views and discussion. Some topics of concern: 1) Paladins and detecting evil. Should there be any abosolute evil to detect or should there be a kind of sliding scail they can regester, "Mostly evil, but with a softspot we might exploit." The rules say that is how detect evil works. Well, not with any kind of detailed verbal exposition on the ways in which the person is evil, but yes, with a scale for how powerful the evil aura is. Go look up the spell in the PHB and how it's supposed to work. 2) Would anymember of any church organazition find any trouble if, for whatever reason, a Detect Alignment spell showed them to be evil. Quite possibly, although KB has said that most churches don't view detect spells in and of themselves as evidence of crime or the need to be punished (which they aren't), only a warning about someone's spiritual health. 3) Should any players assume that because a person 'checked' as Lawful Good that he is in fact a good guy. On the other side, should a confermed Evil person be dismised out of hand as a villian? No. Good people can do bad things for what they think are good reasons. A person can be quite evil and still, in this situation, be a harmless law-abiding citizen. Most religions teach that you have no right to attack or harm someone simply because they harbor evil in their thoughts -- this is part of the definition of good. 4) In all these shades of grey how would a CE cleric of the Silver Flame (for example only) react if told of his alignment by a trusted paladin of the faith? Probably choose whether to doubt the paladin's word -- many people claim to have the ability to discern evil without it being true -- and then decide if some moral compromise is necessary to do what is truly the right thing. (You can also be evil and do good things, after all. It may even be necessary to do so.) a) "Perhaps so, my child. But sometimes one must strike from the dark to fight the night." b) "You're lieing! You're just making that up to silance my vote on the table!" c) "By the flame, what have I become? Please help me, Sir Knight, to change my ways." All of these are possible, but the third is unlikely if the person has spent enough time becoming Chaotic Evil and living out a CE belief system to become attached to it. They'd need more of a psychological disturbance than that to make a shift. Note that the Paladin would have to use some other method to determine the Cleric's alignment than detect evil. if you channel the power of an LG deity, you by default detect as LG, regardless of what your alignment is. This is D&D RAW. It's not an Eberron thing -- in core D&D, where you may be one step removed from your deity, you still detect as your deity's alignment, not your own, true one-step-removed alignment. A True Neutral devotee of Wee Jas, Lawful Neutral deity of magic, is still detected by detect law -- and, in fact, shows up *more strongly* on detect law than an equivalent non-Cleric worshipper of Wee Jas who actually is Lawful Neutral. 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone? Not in and of itself, no. At best it's a clue to let you know not to trust someone or to try to find out more about their activities.
Darakhoranon 01-24-07, 09:01 AM	And there we go again... Paladins, (LG) alignment and code of conduct. The paladin will not "detect evil" in the CE cleric of the Silver Flame, but just by working with that guy heīll violate his code of conduct ("May not associate with evil..."). By RAW (as I understand it), heīll lose his powers. Which should tip him off about the cleric - provided the paladin can trace his fall from grace to said cleric. Which in turn practically FORCES him to smite this evildoer (the paladin did vow to destroy evil, after all).
SSj3goblin 01-24-07, 10:34 AM	And there we go again... Paladins, (LG) alignment and code of conduct. The paladin will not "detect evil" in the CE cleric of the Silver Flame, but just by working with that guy heīll violate his code of conduct ("May not associate with evil..."). By RAW (as I understand it), heīll lose his powers. Which should tip him off about the cleric - provided the paladin can trace his fall from grace to said cleric. Which in turn practically FORCES him to smite this evildoer (the paladin did vow to destroy evil, after all). I've always been under the impression such alignement rules were softer and more bendable in Eberron. Plus, that answer is only taking the easy way out of the situation, without adding much to the game (compared to, say, gray shades of alignement).
goblin_pride 01-24-07, 10:40 AM	The paladin will not "detect evil" in the CE cleric of the Silver Flame, but just by working with that guy heīll violate his code of conduct ("May not associate with evil..."). By RAW (as I understand it), heīll lose his powers. I tend to add "Willingly and knowingly" to that "associate with evil" but considering the amount of little evils I tend to throw in, Paladins would come off like hermits.
Alex_ 01-24-07, 11:24 AM	1) Paladins and detecting evil. Should there be any abosolute evil to detect or should there be a kind of sliding scail they can regester, "Mostly evil, but with a softspot we might exploit." I think detect alignment detects a person's overall aura and history, but not a detailed analysis of where they're particularly good or evil. 2) Would anymember of any church organazition find any trouble if, for whatever reason, a Detect Alignment spell showed them to be evil. If they haven't done any evil, it doesn't matter what they register I don't think. It just means that compared to most people, they're very selfish and would rather do what's best for them than what's best for everyone. 3) Should any players assume that because a person 'checked' as Lawful Good that he is in fact a good guy. On the other side, should a confermed Evil person be dismised out of hand as a villian? Lawful Good characters can oppose your actions just as much as Evil ones. Not because they're good or evil, but simply because they disagree with your conclusions choice of actions. 4) In all these shades of grey how would a CE cleric of the Silver Flame (for example only) react if told of his alignment by a trusted paladin of the faith? First off, alignment is sort of crunch so telling someone their alignment is like telling them their class and level. You don't say "Brother Matthew, I belive you're chaotic evil" anymore than you say, "Brother Matther, I believe you are a cleric2/fighter1." The Paladin would more than likely try to adress the cleric in question about what he senses as distrubing and troubling "vibes" he's getting from him. a) "Perhaps so, my child. But sometimes one must strike from the dark to fight the night." He makes a valid point. b) "You're lieing! You're just making that up to silance my vote on the table!" c) "By the flame, what have I become? Please help me, Sir Knight, to change my ways." Is the Paladin able to prove he's lying? How do we know the Paladin isn't making stuff because he wants more influence at the table and is trying to undermine the cleric's authority? Just because you accuse someone of lying doesn't mean they just sit there and take it whether they're good or evil, and whether they're actually lying or not. 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone? Yeah, plenty of people harm others because their god told them it was a good idea. Lots of people don't agree with them though because not everyone believes in their god, and even amongst those who believe in the same god, they may not believe that person heard anything, or that they themselves heard something totally different. In Eberron, you can't prove the existence of any gods or their actual power. It's all about faith. Yeah the Silver Flame is an actual entity, but is it really the all powerful force in the multiverse the Soverign Host or Dark Six, or is it just another magical phenomenon like Dragons or the floating cities of Sharn that people decided to worship?
Cifer 01-24-07, 12:11 PM	1) Paladins and detecting evil. Should there be any abosolute evil to detect or should there be a kind of sliding scail they can regester, "Mostly evil, but with a softspot we might exploit." Nope. Creatures either ping as evil or they don't. However, it is completely possible for creatures to have several different detects to react upon - the alignment [neutral] demon ([chaotic] and [evil] subtypes) cleric of the Silver Flame ([Lawful] [Good] faith) would ping on every single detect alignment spell there is. 2) Would anymember of any church organazition find any trouble if, for whatever reason, a Detect Alignment spell showed them to be evil. Again nope. Good and Evil in Eberron are indications of how far you go to achieve your ideals. 3) Should any players assume that because a person 'checked' as Lawful Good that he is in fact a good guy. On the other side, should a confermed Evil person be dismised out of hand as a villian? Compare NG Queen [female dog] Aurala to LE King Kaius. 4) In all these shades of grey how would a CE cleric of the Silver Flame (for example only) react if told of his alignment by a trusted paladin of the faith? a) "Perhaps so, my child. But sometimes one must strike from the dark to fight the night." b) "You're lieing! You're just making that up to silance my vote on the table!" c) "By the flame, what have I become? Please help me, Sir Knight, to change my ways." a. Cardinal Krozen is IIRC Lawful Evil and faces no particular stigm about it. 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone? Because of what was said above: No.
rabidclipper 01-24-07, 02:15 PM	Well, on a detect good or detect law , Krozen would light up like a christmas tree about as much as your typical righteous Astral Deva straight from the battles of Shavarath against the fiends. He is a VERY powerful cleric of an LG diety, remember? On a detect evil? You'd get a moderate aura of evil. Given that he wields the power to work miraculous acts of divine magic with the power of his faith in the Silver Flame and has spent decades strengthening the church and likely led THOUSANDS of souls to faith in the teachings of the Church, I might say that he qualifies as one of the CotSF's mightiest champions. Remember that the CotSF is NOT the Path of Light, it is a religion dedicated to opposition to spiritual evil first and foremost, rather than a primarly monastic religion driven by the personal spiritual redemption of indivdual worshippers (or clergy) per se. That is why he suffers no stigma amongst the church hierarchy.
Evilmonster 01-24-07, 02:39 PM	Aside from the relitive power level of the creature being 'detected' what, if any, other factors should be considered when discribing how powerful an alignment aura should register? Should a military advisor (Expert 4) who knowlingly and willingly misled a general to launch an attack on several civilian targets that led to the death of thousands of innocents have a stronger or weaker aura than a powerful wizard (Wizard 17) who has killed over a hundred innocent people?
Subedei 01-24-07, 02:52 PM	In my games, alignment detecting magic does not work on mortals at all. Detect evil will detect something with the evil subtype only. A Cleric of the Silver Flame would have a good aura, since they draw their magical power from a source with a good alignment and to me, that's all their aura represents. In regards to thier personal sense of morality they could be completely twisted but they still draw on good aligned energy. Likewise, you could have someone drawing power from a distinctly evil, wicked source like a bound Rajah and still be a good person. They could use this power to fight injustice in the world and whatnot but I'm sure it'd be at least somewhat dangerous. I'd say it's kind of like the Dark Side in Starwars. It's possible for a good person to use it for good, but the powers it grants have a strong corruption influence. Many good Jedi sought greater power to fight evil only to find themselves becoming what they sought to destroy. Others have been able to use dark powers while resisting their influence. Going further with the analogue, how long had it been since Dooku had fallen when Obi Wan actually found out about it? So yeah, wouldn't that make for a great anti-hero?
Cifer 01-24-07, 03:29 PM	Aside from the relitive power level of the creature being 'detected' what, if any, other factors should be considered when discribing how powerful an alignment aura should register? None (somehow, my posts in this thread feel so negative...).
Darth Syntax 01-24-07, 03:58 PM	Generally, I agree with Subedei in that detect 'alignment' spells don't work on mortals. More specifically, mortals are not capable of having an alignment unless they take on some kind of 'outsider' traits (such as a half-fiend, but even then this only determines what they detect as, now what they 'are'). Also, I would encourage a paladin to travel with someone who might be considered evil, both as a test of the paladin's convictions and as a chance to 'redeem' said 'evil' person. Now, i can see there being an issue with a paladin of the silver flame getting all chummy with a rakshasa (ok several issues), but I have no problem with the same paladin traveling with a Machiavellian wizard or an assassin.
Kreistor2 01-24-07, 08:56 PM	1) Paladins and detecting evil. Should there be any abosolute evil to detect or should there be a kind of sliding scail they can regester, "Mostly evil, but with a softspot we might exploit." Only definable, absolute evils, if you play with fixed alignments. Saves work for me. I don't need to decide for every NPC I create how evil it is. Often, the fixed alignment does not agree with the specifics of the plot a creature enacts, based on other people's judgements. These are not arguments I enjoy. 2) Would any member of any church organazition find any trouble if, for whatever reason, a Detect Alignment spell showed them to be evil. Thus the reason I tend to diminish this spell. If limited to only absolute evils, the easy answer of "get rid of him" applies. If you slide the scale and allow small 'e' evils to be detected, you can't have corrupt priests in the organization. 3) Should any players assume that because a person 'checked' as Lawful Good that he is in fact a good guy. On the other side, should a confermed Evil person be dismised out of hand as a villian? Lawful Good has its own motivations, not yours. He can kill you for being different as easier than a supposed evil guy that would, at worst, use you for his own purposes. 4) In all these shades of grey how would a CE cleric of the Silver Flame (for example only) react if told of his alignment by a trusted paladin of the faith? I wouldn't allow it to be detected. It removes all the fun from such situations. 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone? Reply With Quote Secular laws rule over crime in the Five Nations, not religious, even in Thrane. The Paladin goes to jail, after a trial in which he learns harming someone that might do evil in the future is not a valid defense.
Vharuck 01-24-07, 09:09 PM	The way I interpret the idea of "shades of gray" is not on an individual basis. Sure, there aren't men in black cloaks and top hats twisting their wispy moustaches as a helpless maiden lies tied to a lightning rail's conductor stone. Of course, I don't think there ever should be. The moral ambiguity is not personal, but in general. The Church of the Silver Flame is LG. In most non-Eberron campaigns, this means that nearly all church officials are also LG, with a few being NG or LN. In Eberron, the LG alignment is in general. On the whole, most would still be LG. However, you have some from every alignment combination as well. D&D is different from the real world. It has to be. In D&D, Law, Chaos, Good, and Evil aren't really up for philosophical debate. They're cosmic forces, with actual entities embodying them. You name an action, and in the real world the debate would go on forever whether it's good or evil. In D&D, from a metagame point of view, it should be like asking what the sum of 2 and 2 is. Shades of gray comes into play with individuals in two ways: just because two people or even organizations are of a Good alignment does not mean they work to the same goal. They may even clash with one another. An example would be the leaders of the dragonmarked houses. Even if the leaders were all Good (which they're not), they will attempt to increase their house's power by reducing their rivals'. Of course, their alignment comes into play with how they go about doing this. Secondly, shades of gray does not lend itself well to kick-in-the-door campaigns, as not everything that pings evil to a paladin is okay to smite. Were there a paladin who struck down anything that faintly glowed evil, he would lose his powers quickly. The innkeeper may be evil, and may overcharge certain people because he knows they're too dumb to realize it, but that doesn't really mean that society's better off without him. Kaius is evil. Not only was he stricken with vampirism (yes, not all Eberron vampires are evil, but anything else is exceptional), he killed and now imitates his own grandson in secret to assume the throne again. He willingly allowed the Blood of Vol and Karrn necromancers to defile the corpses of fallen soldiers through inherently evil rituals in an effort to gain military strength. However, he has done a lot of good for his country and the Five Nations in general. Kaius was the biggest proponent of peace during the end of the Last War. Like I said, just because somebody has an evil alignment doesn't mean they have to always do the evil thing.
Cifer 01-24-07, 09:46 PM	Not only was he stricken with vampirism (yes, not all Eberron vampires are evil, but anything else is exceptional), he killed and now imitates his own grandson in secret to assume the throne again. According to a... subtle hint in 5N, his great-grandson is not dead, but imprisoned in a dark cell inside Dreadhold. Any rumours about the creation of an iron mask are denied, however. :D
goblin_pride 01-24-07, 09:53 PM	According to a... subtle hint in 5N, his great-grandson is not dead, but imprisoned in a dark cell inside Dreadhold. Any rumours about the creation of an iron mask are denied, however. :D Are you suggesting that Kaius is a Dumas? :rimshot:
Darth Syntax 01-24-07, 11:16 PM	groan, groan I say!
goblin_pride 01-25-07, 10:19 AM	groan, groan I say! You know, I was worried a Wizo would see that and black out the ending. I guess they're more literate than most of the other moderators I've seen.
DyloniusFunk 01-25-07, 11:12 AM	You know, I was worried a Wizo would see that and black out the ending. I guess they're more literate than most of the other moderators I've seen. Or it's possible that Mods either don't hang out here or if they do they leave us alone since we haven't really had any need to be smacked down by the Hand of Mod.:)
Vharuck 01-25-07, 06:47 PM	Or it's possible that Mods either don't hang out here or if they do they leave us alone since we haven't really had any need to be smacked down by the Hand of Mod.:) I've returned to the D&D boards, primarily these Eberron ones, from a long sabbatical to the World of Warcraft forums. I don't like to exaggerate, so believe me when I say: At least one thread on those forums made me physically sick thinking of the depths of human apathy towards a fellow person. That's all I'm willing to get into, and I'm just glad to be back to a community that takes its time, thinks, and makes jokes (no matter how corny) in good taste. This community is a forum mod's dream.
Cifer 01-25-07, 06:56 PM	@Vharuck It's also refreshing to see a forum where punctuation is not too often approached with a ballistic viewpoint (move back a step and throw dots onto the document - some of them will be right) and orthography and grammar are seen more a rules than polite guidelines...
Vharuck 01-25-07, 07:00 PM	@Vharuck It's also refreshing to see a forum where punctuation is not too often approached with a ballistic viewpoint (move back a step and throw dots onto the document - some of them will be right) and orthography and grammar are seen more a rules than polite guidelines... Polite guidelines? Grammar, vocabulary, and spelling were seen as signs that the poster was a witch from what I saw.
Darakhoranon 01-26-07, 09:30 AM	At least you had maxed out your "Decipher Cript" skill, Vharuck...:D Ok, back to topic: The idea with only subtypes registering on detect spells sounds good. It offers enough difficulties with those damn spells to at least slow the "Ping!"=>"Smite!"-routine. A good demon would still detect as evil, after all. And you wouldnīt have to worry about the paladins waltzing into town and smiting the corrupt judge, selfish cleric and everyone else lighting up on their "radar". At least not with that stupid "But he detected as evil!"-crap. I hereby declare this version to be "canon" (at least in my campaigns).
Need_A_Life 01-29-07, 10:12 AM	I have played numerous evil characters in good-aligned groups without creating a large amount of problems. The greatest problem was when my necromancer and the group druid met, where the other player metagamed by keeping on trying to make me "slip up" and reveal myself to be a necromancer, whereas I kept insisting that I was giving murderers and rapists the chance to redeem themselves by joining a righteous fight. Good times. 1) Paladins and detecting evil. Should there be any abosolute evil to detect or should there be a kind of sliding scail they can regester, "Mostly evil, but with a softspot we might exploit."No, I'd keep it RAW and say "Faintly/Moderately/Strongly/Overpoweringly Evil," leaving it up to the player to figure out whether or not this person has comitted any "smitable" offenses. 2) Would anymember of any church organazition find any trouble if, for whatever reason, a Detect Alignment spell showed them to be evil.Not in Eberron, no. There are examples of several prominent members of the Silver Flame being evil-aligned, and considering that the Purge was nothing less than attempted genocide, evil does exist in the church. 3) Should any players assume that because a person 'checked' as Lawful Good that he is in fact a good guy. On the other side, should a confermed Evil person be dismised out of hand as a villian?I call Miko Miyazaki to the stand (Order of the Stick). Good-aligned people can be one anothers antagonists and evil-aligned people can sometimes be fighting for a just cause. 4) In all these shades of grey how would a CE cleric of the Silver Flame (for example only) react if told of his alignment by a trusted paladin of the faith? "When you point your finger, three fingers point back at you, my brother. Tell me your reasoning?" a) "Perhaps so, my child. But sometimes one must strike from the dark to fight the night."Sure, if the person is disgusted with himself (indicating a moral compass, which brings him closer to neutral than evil), but a person convinced that he is upholding truth and justice would dismiss the paladin as misguided. b) "You're lying! You're just making that up to silence my vote on the table!"Perhaps, if he believed that the paladin bore him ill intent. I doubt that the opinion of a single individual would do much to sway the collective opinion of the cleric's friends. c) "By the flame, what have I become? Please help me, Sir Knight, to change my ways."Hardly, unless the cleric has done things with which he is truly disgusted (I know all to well how that feels). 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone?Only when people who claim this defense in real life start to get off the hook.
Ricohard_Draconis 01-30-07, 12:22 AM	4) In all these shades of grey how would a CE cleric of the Silver Flame (for example only) react if told of his alignment by a trusted paladin of the faith? Remember that a cleric has an aura that matches that of their faith regardless of their true allignment as long as they don't violate their class tenets. So the actual Clerics, not that all clerics are Clerics, are always safe 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone? I think the responses "yes, and a) how can you prove that? and B) where is 'evil' illegal?" might pop up.
Darakhoranon 01-30-07, 07:50 AM	Another good response would be "Oh, Iīm evil? And who slaughtered the whole village of goblins? Any idea, Sir GOBLINBANE ?"
Cifer 01-30-07, 03:21 PM	Remember that a cleric has an aura that matches that of their faith regardless of their true allignment as long as they don't violate their class tenets. So the actual Clerics, not that all clerics are Clerics, are always safe Sure, he has that aura, but as long as there's not a rule I'm not aware of, he's also got an evil aura - and when was the last time you saw a paladin cast Detect Good?
Darakhoranon 01-31-07, 09:46 AM	That depends... Paladin of Slaughter? Seriously though, how many auras can one being have? The CE cleric of the LG deity from the original example would have ALL FOUR POSSIBLE AURAS... Lawful and good auras because of his god, chaotic and evil auras because of his alignment. By RAW (as I understand it), thatīs exactly how it should work - but itīs a bit over the top, Iīd say. I suggest taking the dominant (possible) auras, in this case lawful and good, and "weaken" them. So the paladin using "detect evil" on the cleric (By the way, Iīd like to hear his explanation for THAT act...) would not detect anything. Heīd just get a feeling that somethingīs not quite right - if I felt generous. Someone using "detect law" on the other hand would get a weaker "ping" than expected.
Logos7 02-01-07, 08:40 PM	I thought that Evil Clerics of a good gawd who has a good domain detected as Evil and Good ( or substitute what ever alignment appropiately) I didn't think a Overwhelmingly Good Alignment from being a 20th level cleric of good god did anything to the minor evil alignment for being a cheap skate of a dingus who likes to slap his wife around Join Date: Jul 2006 Default Good, Evil, and Grey What with all the moral ambiguity the setting suggests how important are alignments anymore? I'm not perposing to drop that aspect of the game, I'm only looking for opinions, views and discussion. Some topics of concern: 1) Paladins and detecting evil. Should there be any abosolute evil to detect or should there be a kind of sliding scail they can regester, "Mostly evil, but with a softspot we might exploit." Detect Evil Detects Evil not good or else it would be called detect alignment or detect good and evil or something like that 2) Would anymember of any church organazition find any trouble if, for whatever reason, a Detect Alignment spell showed them to be evil. Lots of things can fool a detection spell into a false positive evil result, standing in the mournlands, being reserected, a false aura generating machine etc. Believe my actions not my aurua 3) Should any players assume that because a person 'checked' as Lawful Good that he is in fact a good guy. On the other side, should a confermed Evil person be dismised out of hand as a villian? No the exact opposite in eberron , that's why it's called noir and not black and white 4) In all these shades of grey how would a CE cleric of the Silver Flame (for example only) react if told of his alignment by a trusted paladin of the faith? If I was that cleric i'd give the paladin a lecture on non legal , personally invasive search procedures and what rights the state gives paladins and what they don't or more importantly what the state allows paladins to act upon which is not detect evil 5) Should "But he was EVIL! The gods have granted me this knowledge through my prayer to them." ever be an excuse to harm someone?, Sure if you can be 100% sure your not being dupped some how, and that person is absolutely irredemable. Your never going to be 100% sure of the first and only rarely on the second ( Thinking Evil Outsiders and not always then)
Teron Gorefiend 02-01-07, 08:50 PM	Not in Eberron, no. There are examples of several prominent members of the Silver Flame being evil-aligned, and considering that the Purge was nothing less than attempted genocide, evil does exist in the church. Look again. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050404a) There was a lot more to the Purge than genocide. Saving Aundaire, for instance. Anyway, what it all comes down to is that evil in Eberron means being selfish, pityless, or some such. It's probably the most common alignment on the good-evil axis; detecting that someone is evil tells you they're a jerk, but it doesn't mean they deserve to die. The "detect-smite" approach is neither good nor legal, and a paladin who tries it will soon end up evil himself - and in jail.
EimiYoshikawa 02-15-07, 11:08 PM	The introduction to http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a is one of the best examples of how to use Detect Evil appropriately that I've seen, particularly as a Paladin in Eberron.
OmNefarious 02-27-07, 04:08 PM	Ok I have a couple friends that want to be a vampire and a Dread Necromancer (which turns into a Lich at 20th lvl). Now would this automatically make them evil or would their regular class alignment take in effect? For instance the DN will most likely be CN or N and the vamp wants to be a CG Swashbuckler (I think). Now when they turn undead are they doomed to be evil or since they lived good or neutral lives they will stay that way?
Vharuck 02-27-07, 04:16 PM	Ok I have a couple friends that want to be a vampire and a Dread Necromancer (which turns into a Lich at 20th lvl). Now would this automatically make them evil or would their regular class alignment take in effect? For instance the DN will most likely be CN or N and the vamp wants to be a CG Swashbuckler (I think). Now when they turn undead are they doomed to be evil or since they lived good or neutral lives they will stay that way? As for the lich, that's simple: he's evil. The process of becoming a lich is inherently evil. Though how evil and what it is are left up to the DM, this is clearly stated in the rules. As for the vampire, I reluctantly say: he can have any alignment. I say reluctantly because the curse of vampirism is magical and almost always turns the creature evil. Not only that, but after drinking blood (which all vampires must do), the vampire is less likely to be as morally driven. When morals clash with practicality, I'm sad to say that morals often take the backseat.