Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Uratoh 06-08-05, 02:01 PM	Please don't spoil the adventure here...i'm just wondering about some things, that the DM as well as the rest of our group also debate... Why are there so many NPCs in full plate, with large steel shields? especially one who's supposed to be the captain of a BOAT...or one who claims to be a simple scholar...is full plate a fashion statement in Sharn this fall, or? A group of soldiers, of lower level, taking out superior numbers of higher level troops with the high ground in defensive position...the only reason the DM can figure they won is because the plot says so... The 'mysterious figure' that summons the PCs in the city on xendrik. I understand that death is a real threat in adventures, but save-or-die attacks are kind of nasty at the levels this adventure was intended for, and even if they have enough money to pay for raise dead, where are they supposed to find a cleric high enough level to do it? Edit: Also, there's the staff with 'Daylight' cast on it...no indication that its permanant, yet the DM says no casters in the group keep that spell prepaired, and as well there's a spell that they are listed as casting from a scroll, made by a 16th level cleric...the DM wants to know where the heck they got it from.
Uller999 06-08-05, 06:10 PM	There have been a bunch of threads about how broken Grasp of the Emerald Claw is. you might want to go give those a looksie or put this thread there.
Raziel_Brokodar 06-08-05, 07:42 PM	Please don't spoil the adventure here...i'm just wondering about some things, that the DM as well as the rest of our group also debate... Why are there so many NPCs in full plate, with large steel shields? especially one who's supposed to be the captain of a BOAT...or one who claims to be a simple scholar...is full plate a fashion statement in Sharn this fall, or? A group of soldiers, of lower level, taking out superior numbers of higher level troops with the high ground in defensive position...the only reason the DM can figure they won is because the plot says so... The 'mysterious figure' that summons the PCs in the city on xendrik. I understand that death is a real threat in adventures, but save-or-die attacks are kind of nasty at the levels this adventure was intended for, and even if they have enough money to pay for raise dead, where are they supposed to find a cleric high enough level to do it? Edit: Also, there's the staff with 'Daylight' cast on it...no indication that its permanant, yet the DM says no casters in the group keep that spell prepaired, and as well there's a spell that they are listed as casting from a scroll, made by a 16th level cleric...the DM wants to know where the heck they got it from. I'll try to tackle a couple: Full plate and large steel shields... hmm... +8 Full plate, +2 shield, +1 dex... wow is your group that bad that they can't hit 21 AC? That's easy. The staff? It's obvious that it's permanent... how else would it still be active. And... raise dead? Eberron is the setting where for the most part when you die, you stay dead. Make a new character, or if you died, often it's your own fault. (ever hear of action points?) (sorry if I'm sarcastic and negative, but I see no problems) :P
Uratoh 06-08-05, 08:24 PM	The issue isnt that theyre impossible to hit, theyre not our opponents. its like, a riverboat captain who goes up and down a jungle river routinely wears full plate and carries a large steel shield. at least go with a shield that floats...
BMStroh 06-08-05, 08:35 PM	Raziel, I think you missed Uratoh's point. It's not that AC 21 is tough to hit, or that characters can possibly die. It's just things that don't seem to make sense. A riverboat captain wearing plate armor? The issue isn't his AC - the issue is his tendency to turn into the anchor if he falls overboard. Or the sahuagin trap for the Cannith vessel. With such a small number of that type of craft in the world, finding a trap set just for it, in a part of the ocean that the captain himself would prefer to avoid entirely? A spell cast from a scroll written by a 16th level cleric? It's not the spell that's the issue. It's the general lack of 16th level characters in the setting. And before you point out that every NPC in the world isn't statted out in the ECS, I'll say that I agree with you. However, the intent of the setting is spelled out pretty well. The natives (War3) lose 5x the number of combatants as the invaders (War2), despite the natives having higher levels, HP, and the benefit of higher ground. I don't have a problem with the natives losing, but 5:1? So far, the Eberron adventure series has been entertaining enough for our group to play, but there have been several times I've had to put my sense of logical consistency on the shelf. Since the party is considering hunting down and killing every member of the Emerald Claw they can find, I figure the recurring villain thing is working pretty well, at any rate. (And Uratoh, you haven't even seen the half of it, yet...:))
Uratoh 06-08-05, 09:26 PM	<Content removed because someone other than me wrote it>
Solarious 06-08-05, 09:45 PM	It's not that AC 21 is tough to hit, or that characters can possibly die. It's just things that don't seem to make sense. A riverboat captain wearing plate armor? The issue isn't his AC - the issue is his tendency to turn into the anchor if he falls overboard. There are two answers for this. One, the captain has enough enounters to believe that the protection the goods offers outweighs the chance he becomes a living anchor. Or this captain is just plain mad. Or the sahuagin trap for the Cannith vessel. With such a small number of that type of craft in the world, finding a trap set just for it, in a part of the ocean that the captain himself would prefer to avoid entirely? If I remember correctly, Dire Sharks of Gargantuan size tend to need lots of food. And work reasonably well on sinking regular sailing ships as well. Perhaps they were just taking their pet out for a swim, and happened to spot dinner. :D The natives (War3) lose 5x the number of combatants as the invaders (War2), despite the natives having higher levels, HP, and the benefit of higher ground. I don't have a problem with the natives losing, but 5:1? ... Since the party is considering hunting down and killing every member of the Emerald Claw they can find, I figure the recurring villain thing is working pretty well, at any rate. You forget one important item, which you happened to mention a paragraph later. Recurring villian support! :devil: With a smattering of PC levels on certain villians and a mummy working in a coordinated method, the Claw can certainly bring a large amount of pain to the drow tribe. guys, my pee-pee hurts. Somehow, I don't think we needed to know that.
Uratoh 06-08-05, 10:21 PM	Damnit! this is what ALWAYS happens when I forget to log off and Bill gets on the computer!
BMStroh 06-08-05, 11:34 PM	If I remember correctly, Dire Sharks of Gargantuan size tend to need lots of food. And work reasonably well on sinking regular sailing ships as well. Perhaps they were just taking their pet out for a swim, and happened to spot dinner. :D At the exact same spot they just happen to have secured large nets horizontally in the water... The problem isn't the shark. Why are the nets there? You forget one important item, which you happened to mention a paragraph later. Recurring villian support! :devil: With a smattering of PC levels on certain villians and a mummy working in a coordinated method, the Claw can certainly bring a large amount of pain to the drow tribe. The mummy sorceror's spells are so minor as to be non-existent. Garrow's got more of a selection, but his typical list for a day seems to be more utility/defensive than offensive in nature. Admittedly, in my version of the adventure, there's a bit more of a reason for the carnage. And, as I've stated, my issue isn't that the Drow lost - it's the kill ratio. The stairs sized for Medium characters effectively funnel the EC guys right to them, and the Drow can line either side of the stairs from above and throw javelins down at them. Or, the EC guys can try to climb the giant steps instead, and the Drow can wait at the top and step on their fingers. :) Either way, the modules have been fun for our group. (Or at least no one has told me otherwise...) I wish I had more time to spend prepping for sessions, so I could either adjust more of this stuff out before we start, or at least come up with better explanations for it.
Raziel_Brokodar 06-09-05, 08:30 AM	Raziel, I think you missed Uratoh's point. It's not that AC 21 is tough to hit, or that characters can possibly die. It's just things that don't seem to make sense. A riverboat captain wearing plate armor? The issue isn't his AC - the issue is his tendency to turn into the anchor if he falls overboard. Or the sahuagin trap for the Cannith vessel. With such a small number of that type of craft in the world, finding a trap set just for it, in a part of the ocean that the captain himself would prefer to avoid entirely? A spell cast from a scroll written by a 16th level cleric? It's not the spell that's the issue. It's the general lack of 16th level characters in the setting. And before you point out that every NPC in the world isn't statted out in the ECS, I'll say that I agree with you. However, the intent of the setting is spelled out pretty well. The natives (War3) lose 5x the number of combatants as the invaders (War2), despite the natives having higher levels, HP, and the benefit of higher ground. I don't have a problem with the natives losing, but 5:1? So far, the Eberron adventure series has been entertaining enough for our group to play, but there have been several times I've had to put my sense of logical consistency on the shelf. Since the party is considering hunting down and killing every member of the Emerald Claw they can find, I figure the recurring villain thing is working pretty well, at any rate. (And Uratoh, you haven't even seen the half of it, yet...:)) err..... ok... :rolleyes: yeah, I suppose the guys wanted to be well armored? idk... haha
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-09-05, 12:37 PM	DnD is not a flexible system. It's very difficult to make a light-armored fighter with a good AC, without using some untested prestige or base class *ahem* I have a DM for Eberron, and he always has to alter modules (especially their NPCs) because of things like that.
Raziel_Brokodar 06-09-05, 06:25 PM	It's very difficult to make a light-armored fighter with a good AC. Use "Defence Bonus" from Unearthed Arcana. It's great for Eberron, I always use it, even for regular stuff or FR. :D
Shining_Hand 06-10-05, 01:10 AM	Im currently DMing this module, but I've never stuck to a mod. I always change it around and add my own flavours. Why are there so many NPCs in full plate, with large steel shields? especially one who's supposed to be the captain of a BOAT...or one who claims to be a simple scholar...is full plate a fashion statement in Sharn this fall, or? Changed it, the Captain simply is no wearing full plate nor a sheild. Though remember he may just simply be a captain, but he is in Xendrik. So I made up for protection with some masterwork weapons. Also I changed the Scholar, made her into an Extreme Explorer. Lara Croft Style. A group of soldiers, of lower level, taking out superior numbers of higher level troops with the high ground in defensive position...the only reason the DM can figure they won is because the plot says so... Changed it. Lots of losses on both sides, but the Emerald Claw eventualy gets the upperhand with the use of another skiff. The Drow dont all die they retreate and I had them come back later on and harras the PCs. The 'mysterious figure' that summons the PCs in the city on xendrik. I understand that death is a real threat in adventures, but save-or-die attacks are kind of nasty at the levels this adventure was intended for, and even if they have enough money to pay for raise dead, where are they supposed to find a cleric high enough level to do it? I was quite annoyed at this. I dont care if my PCs make a foolish decision and end up getting hacked to pieces for it. But to walk down an alley and have a bodak simply stare at my party, and suddenly be in a 'roll or die' situation.. The chances that all 5 of them save their will saves was low... Also the Dire shark... I mean comeon! I had to have it come in later to chase them back into the ship, and even then my artificer almost died! They have a CR of 9, and the parties level is 5, dude. Anyways, I suppose a few things were overlooked. But being a DM means you have a right to customise anything you wish. I do this even if a mod is perfect.
jonthegm 06-10-05, 01:27 AM	The mummy sorceror's spells are so minor as to be non-existent. Garrow's got more of a selection, but his typical list for a day seems to be more utility/defensive than offensive in nature. Did you forget Despair (Su): At the mere sight of a mummy, the viewer must succeed at a Will save (DC 15) or be paralyzed with fear for 1d4 rounds. Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by that mummy's despair ability for one day. Will saves are trouble for warriors. They'll most probably have a +1... and that's on SIGHT... so that's around 4 rounds for a good amount of your troops to just run in and coup de grace.... ADDITIONALLY, mummies take half damage AND then apply DR (5/-!!!)
Wasteland Knight 06-10-05, 05:42 AM	ADDITIONALLY, mummies take half damage AND then apply DR (5/-!!!) That is incorrect. In 3.5 mummy's have only DR 5/-.
Niaslos FireCrow 06-10-05, 10:21 AM	On the things of who should have winned I must admit that the number are quite impressive (maybe to much.. anyway) but if you look at the stats each warrior are pretty equal, they do equivalent damages and each hit fairly often (drow with 11 while EC with 10). For the strategies, yes the drows had higher ground and were on the defensive in a really well known terrain but they were also surely aware of the treat a bit to late and I don't see them as being as strategic and disciplined as the EC Soldiers so we could say that the things are quite balanced on this. Then come the drows spell-like abilities, altough I have developed my own Eberron Drows (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=415640) I'll make as if they were normal drows, they're surely quite effective at using them (fairy fire then darkness on the battleground) but I think Garrow could have easily balanced for this with his great spell list. Finally, what remain is the Drow Chieftain vs. Scimitar, the mummy and the undead supporting EC troups. I think that the mummy, if Garrow dispelled some darkness, could have cause a lot of trouble in the Drows rank. The undead (mainly skeleton) can stand their ground against drows warriors so it add to the EC effective and Scimitar have cleave and great cleave: make her quite deadly. Also remember that the attack could have occured during the day. Seeing all this I find it logical that EC soldiers winned but remains the mortality rates. About it, we could argue that maybe the EC soldiers had some healing potions and that the healing support of Garrow can explain it but I can't deny the numbers seem a bit exagerated. Anyway, I hope I brought up some point that might somewhat satisfy your need of constincency in GotEC. P.S.: For the captain with a full plate, maybe I'm a bit silly here but: what say he dons it BEFORE making the river travel? Personally, if I was him (trained for combat and having a lot of money due to my elemental-powered river boat) and I had to make some dangerous travel in the Xen'drix jungle I would surely pay the 1500 gp needed for me to have a great metal shield and a full plate, waiting in the shadow of the great trees to escape the sunlight and sending my men to guard the place while I relax, safe in my metal equipment... Ok maybe I push a little bit but I want to defend Bruce R. Cordell and if you think about it my comments aren't that exagerated. :cool:
Runeblood7 06-10-05, 03:05 PM	My only beef was the cloud Giant Skeleton (which hosed my party twice!) It was something akin to the Monty Python Holy Grail thing with the rabbit. There was a point at which even the fearless and confidant Cleric of the Silver Flame: "Peace out guys...you all have fun fighting that" and the monstrous scorpion. Anything that can take the -20 successfully grapple and still effectively attack 2 people in a 5-6 person party at that level was just wrong. It was a near death experience for everyone.
Wasteland Knight 06-10-05, 09:26 PM	the monstrous scorpion. Anything that can take the -20 successfully grapple and still effectively attack 2 people in a 5-6 person party at that level was just wrong. It was a near death experience for everyone. The monstrous scorpion encounter (CR 10!) is extremely deadly for a 6th level adventure. It's been mentioned multiple times as a player/party killing encounter, which with a CR 4 higher than the party level it should be. While I do have issues with several of the encounters in GotEC, this particular one doesn't bother me. I don't understand why PC's are attacking the giant scorpion in the first place. It's trapped within its location, and doesn't need to be defeated to further the PC's goal. It seems like common sense on the part of the character's to leave a scorpion the size of a tank alone! DM's seem to constantly say "I only kill PC's when they do something stupid" - well, attacking this scorpion isn't a very smart move, and those who choose to do so should suffer the consequences...
bromleylaerchenheim 06-13-05, 04:51 AM	I must confess that "Grasp..." gave some really tough encounters for my 7 people of 6th level party. The Shark proved to be really tough, swallowing both, a paladin and an orkish druid in the first and second round, which removed most firepower off the party. However, with them inside cutting them free and a very heroic Changeling rogue who manages to come on top of the shark and - investing a few action points - kills the beast single handy, this encounter was somehow remarkable and truely "pulp" in style which we love and which is true Eberron style. The Bodak was easily "uncovered" with the paladins detect evil ability. Whoever first encountered it makes his save. Then our cleric blast the undead away with scorching ray and sunburst. During this encounter, the party was more converned with the elf cleric that followed the group but they managed NOT to kill this NPC ;-) The drow took my party completly by surprise on the front door steps of the ziggurat but in the end was no match. Unfortunatly they did not manage to communicate diplomatically with them so they can not make allies but the appearance of the drow and their relationship to the Claw puzzles them a while. The "Drowned" was a real killer. Even so the gargantuan scorpion was, as his tactic was great, but the party avoids this fight. We had a great Eberron style showdown: I decided that Garrow would open the teleport with the help of the pattern but only for an instant (1 teleport) and not for 10 minutes. During the fight with Scimitar, Garrow manages to reach the throne invisible and activates the portal. Out changeling rogue also climbs the throne and jumps on the seat with the intention to get hold of Garrow in just the same second, so he was teleported together with Garrow. Both landed in the Vault level, the Changeling on top of the cleric pushing him down one or two levels of the pyramid. Garrow let the pattern slip away. In the few round where the Changeling battles Garrow - two very equal foes; it ends in a tie with both combatants searching for shelter and replenishing their hitpoint. Meanwhile Xulo completes itself and animates the ancient forged. Also meanwhile the rest of the group defends Scimitar and unlocks the secret of the portal. They teleport to the Vault in the same minute where Xulo battles Garrow who himself wants to ally. In the forthcoming battle, Garrow manages to escape through the portal (which is different from the modules predicted ending) and reserves himself as a villian for further adventures (Yep!).
ryanroyce 06-13-05, 10:41 PM	there's a spell that they are listed as casting from a scroll, made by a 16th level cleric...the DM wants to know where the heck they got it from. Just because there are almost no high level NPCs around these days does not mean that there have never been such NPCs. There used to be plenty of high level characters running around... but the overwhelming majority of them got killed during the Last War, leaving behind all their wonderful toys for us low-level guys to find and use. :dancin: Ryan