Great Galifar's Ghost! A high level NPC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Great Galifar's Ghost! A high level NPC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ChronosCrow
11-14-04, 08:39 AM Wow, I was just blind-sided by seeing a CR 17 on page 94 of the Sharn book. I mean, the highest we've seen so far is a 12 Lord of the Blades.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
11-14-04, 09:20 AM Are you refering to the level 17 commoner? If so, I don't think she is challenge rating 17 (its less for NPC classes). Besides, its not like she can help the party. The worst she can do is prepare a sub-par meal for your enemies. That will shake them up!
On another note, the Lord of Blades is by no means the highest level NPC. Take a look at Jaela, Vol and Oalian (especially Oalian) and he seems rather tame.
Possum
11-14-04, 09:26 AM Wow, I was just blind-sided by seeing a CR 17 on page 94 of the Sharn book. I mean, the highest we've seen so far is a 12 Lord of the Blades.

Oalian is a 20th level druid ... who happens to be a tree.

The fact that Sharn has ONE 18th level Adept is not a big deal. It also has a Saint named Daca who is all too cool to use in adventures. I won't tell you why though, so people have to buy the book.

I do love this setting.
ChronosCrow
11-14-04, 10:17 AM Are you refering to the level 17 commoner? If so, I don't think she is challenge rating 17 (its less for NPC classes). Besides, its not like she can help the party. The worst she can do is prepare a sub-par meal for your enemies. That will shake them up!
On another note, the Lord of Blades is by no means the highest level NPC. Take a look at Jaela, Vol and Oalian (especially Oalian) and he seems rather tame.

Did you look at the page? It's guy and though he is an adept he's listed as a CR 17. And a 18th caster lvl. That's pretty dang big in comparison to most of the world. Jaela, Vol and Oalian are all pretty much exceptions to the rule. But this guy isn't one of the key noted figures of the world. He's big, but not Vol or Jaela big.
ChronosCrow
11-14-04, 10:22 AM Oalian is a 20th level druid ... who happens to be a tree.

The fact that Sharn has ONE 18th level Adept is not a big deal. It also has a Saint named Daca who is all too cool to use in adventures. I won't tell you why though, so people have to buy the book.

I do love this setting.

You've gotta understand all the factors I'm weighing here. The major one being that the creator's entire intent for Eberron is for the world to be a low-level to mid-level world. The EBCS is riddled with lower mid-level characters as supposedly powerful NPC's. They've got politcal and people power though, not physical power supasable by the PCs. The guy's also not the most noted figure in the Blood of Vol. He's an important figure, but he's not at the headquarters of Vol, meaning they've got to have plenty more than one of his type at the HQ.

I saw Daca, another impressive figure. You're right, very usable. I'm not upset at the high lvl NPC, just shocked really. I just wished to note my shock.
Imruphel
11-14-04, 10:56 AM The idea of a 17th-level commoner, IMO, is simply absurd.

The underlying philosphy of NPC classes is that they are for the less exceptional. The reality is, a 17th-level anything cannot be considered "not exceptional".

Also, again IMO, this whole idea about low to mid level NPCs will only last another year or so. With the speed of levelling in 3E/3.5E, and the general "power creep" in WotC products, it won't be long before we start to see a more FR-like distribution of levels.
Just another user
11-14-04, 11:35 AM I think they should have made expert, commoner and C. as 10 level classes, I've always had same difficulty to digest the idea of a 20 level commoner, I mean, a commoner that fight better and is tougher than many 5 level fighters :rolleyes: . Sometimes I even miss the AD&D's concept of zero level characters.
Azarias
11-14-04, 11:54 AM ''The idea of a 17th-level commoner, IMO, is simply absurd...The underlying philosphy of NPC classes is that they are for the less exceptional. The reality is, a 17th-level anything cannot be considered "not exceptional".''

Why is it absurd? It's not a new concept in D&D, though it has been much under-used. High level npc class members add breadth to the game.

Let's say you want to make a mid-career Einstein-type figure, and don't want to make him an adventuring class but something mundane - he is, after all, a worker in a [insert boring job here] who does astonishing work in his spare time...well, why shouldn't he be an 12th level whatever? Or to put it the other way round, why should be possess a pc class? The 12 levels give him the Intelligence and abilities he merits, without making him overly powerful. A pc class doesn't necessarily suit him, but he is clearly an exceptional figure.

What level would you make Einstein? Zero level is no good, unless you're prepared to bend the 3.5 rules - because this character should have an Intelligence as rigorous as anyone he's ever like to come across. Solution: give him 8 or 12 levels of a low-BAB, high-skills npc class. It's an option, not a problem.

No, the absurdity would be in having to make all powerful NPCs practitioners of the pc classes. The npc classes are excellent - and under-used. Though Eberron looks set to change that for the better...
Hellcow
11-14-04, 01:30 PM There is a lot that I could say on this subject, but it's not right for me to neglect the Ask Keith thread in favor of other topics I find interesting. So if you'd like to see my thoughts on the matter, raise it there.

Briefly, however, I will say that it remains our intent that there are few high level allies for the players. The NPC in question is unlikely to be an ally, and he is an adept as opposed to a cleric; if you do a straight comparison in terms of character benefits, caster level aside, a 17th level adept has 59 HP, +8/+3 BAB, +5/+5/+10 saves, and a single 5th level spell. An 11th level cleric has 49 HP, +8/+3 BAB, +7/+3/+7 saves, and two 6th level spells (along with three 5th level spells), not to mention far better armor and weapon proficiency. CR aside, I'd personally take an 11th level cleric over a 17th level adept any day of the week. And by the typical DMG Demographics table, you would have a decent chance of having an 18th level cleric in a city the size of Sharn. As is, the highest level cleric is 11th level.

And saying that he's not an important figure is, in my opinion, unwise. He is the high priest of the religion in the largest city in Khorvaire, not to mention being a wealthy man. Both of these things give him influence. And note that he's not at the headquarters of Vol because he is not in fact a supporter of the Emerald Claw. If your point is that he's not in Atur (HQ of the Blood of Vol, not Vol herself), true, but again, level and rank do not necessarily coincide in Eberron! You may find a cardinal in Flamekeep who is lower level than Ythana.

Anyhow, there's much more I could say on the subject, including the 17th level commoner. If you're interested, bring it up on the Ask Keith Thread.
Magagumo
11-14-04, 02:18 PM Personally, I would like to remind ppl that Nonassociated classes (like ht e NPC classes) should be treated as 1/2 CR- As HEllcow pointed out, the 18th level adept has 1 5th level spell... just like that 9th level cleric or wizard (sure, he has a feew more HD & saves, but his stats are all much lower due to non-elte status, you give them EL treasure- not NPC cash, and you absically she that they are equivalent- power v. a bit more endurance).

As for the 17th lvl commonner... try CR 4 ;) Commoner really is 1/4 CR per HD, as the horrible hp, bad attack & saves, and poor skills demonstrate. So yea, I find it to be an excelletn sue of the rules- not everyone need be an elite, combat-focused class, but they still can demonstrate their wisdom and experience as power player NPCs.
Brastan
11-15-04, 04:55 AM As I skim Sharn:CoT I'm seeling mid to high level NPCs scattered though out. My big suppreisw as looking an one of the thief guilds and seeing a 3rd level rogue in charge. :) Turns out I miss read and its an Ogermage 3rd level rogue CR 11, which makes more sense.

Few to no high level Allies is the order of the day for Eberron, not no high level NPCs. Also even with high level characters around they tend to balance each other out point for point in the setting. Take the two rival guilds for example, neither one can displace the other without PC assistance. But in siding with one they make major enemies out of the other. The setting is working out very well.
ChronosCrow
11-15-04, 05:57 AM There is a lot that I could say on this subject...And saying that he's not an important figure is, in my opinion, unwise...level and rank do not necessarily coincide in Eberron! You may find a cardinal in Flamekeep who is lower level than Ythana.

I stand corrected by the man. In retrospect, and Keith's guidance, I understand the situation a lot better. Thanks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ChronosCrow 11-14-04, 08:39 AM	Wow, I was just blind-sided by seeing a CR 17 on page 94 of the Sharn book. I mean, the highest we've seen so far is a 12 Lord of the Blades.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 11-14-04, 09:20 AM	Are you refering to the level 17 commoner? If so, I don't think she is challenge rating 17 (its less for NPC classes). Besides, its not like she can help the party. The worst she can do is prepare a sub-par meal for your enemies. That will shake them up! On another note, the Lord of Blades is by no means the highest level NPC. Take a look at Jaela, Vol and Oalian (especially Oalian) and he seems rather tame.
Possum 11-14-04, 09:26 AM	Wow, I was just blind-sided by seeing a CR 17 on page 94 of the Sharn book. I mean, the highest we've seen so far is a 12 Lord of the Blades. Oalian is a 20th level druid ... who happens to be a tree. The fact that Sharn has ONE 18th level Adept is not a big deal. It also has a Saint named Daca who is all too cool to use in adventures. I won't tell you why though, so people have to buy the book. I do love this setting.
ChronosCrow 11-14-04, 10:17 AM	Are you refering to the level 17 commoner? If so, I don't think she is challenge rating 17 (its less for NPC classes). Besides, its not like she can help the party. The worst she can do is prepare a sub-par meal for your enemies. That will shake them up! On another note, the Lord of Blades is by no means the highest level NPC. Take a look at Jaela, Vol and Oalian (especially Oalian) and he seems rather tame. Did you look at the page? It's guy and though he is an adept he's listed as a CR 17. And a 18th caster lvl. That's pretty dang big in comparison to most of the world. Jaela, Vol and Oalian are all pretty much exceptions to the rule. But this guy isn't one of the key noted figures of the world. He's big, but not Vol or Jaela big.
ChronosCrow 11-14-04, 10:22 AM	Oalian is a 20th level druid ... who happens to be a tree. The fact that Sharn has ONE 18th level Adept is not a big deal. It also has a Saint named Daca who is all too cool to use in adventures. I won't tell you why though, so people have to buy the book. I do love this setting. You've gotta understand all the factors I'm weighing here. The major one being that the creator's entire intent for Eberron is for the world to be a low-level to mid-level world. The EBCS is riddled with lower mid-level characters as supposedly powerful NPC's. They've got politcal and people power though, not physical power supasable by the PCs. The guy's also not the most noted figure in the Blood of Vol. He's an important figure, but he's not at the headquarters of Vol, meaning they've got to have plenty more than one of his type at the HQ. I saw Daca, another impressive figure. You're right, very usable. I'm not upset at the high lvl NPC, just shocked really. I just wished to note my shock.
Imruphel 11-14-04, 10:56 AM	The idea of a 17th-level commoner, IMO, is simply absurd. The underlying philosphy of NPC classes is that they are for the less exceptional. The reality is, a 17th-level anything cannot be considered "not exceptional". Also, again IMO, this whole idea about low to mid level NPCs will only last another year or so. With the speed of levelling in 3E/3.5E, and the general "power creep" in WotC products, it won't be long before we start to see a more FR-like distribution of levels.
Just another user 11-14-04, 11:35 AM	I think they should have made expert, commoner and C. as 10 level classes, I've always had same difficulty to digest the idea of a 20 level commoner, I mean, a commoner that fight better and is tougher than many 5 level fighters :rolleyes: . Sometimes I even miss the AD&D's concept of zero level characters.
Azarias 11-14-04, 11:54 AM	''The idea of a 17th-level commoner, IMO, is simply absurd...The underlying philosphy of NPC classes is that they are for the less exceptional. The reality is, a 17th-level anything cannot be considered "not exceptional".'' Why is it absurd? It's not a new concept in D&D, though it has been much under-used. High level npc class members add breadth to the game. Let's say you want to make a mid-career Einstein-type figure, and don't want to make him an adventuring class but something mundane - he is, after all, a worker in a [insert boring job here] who does astonishing work in his spare time...well, why shouldn't he be an 12th level whatever? Or to put it the other way round, why should be possess a pc class? The 12 levels give him the Intelligence and abilities he merits, without making him overly powerful. A pc class doesn't necessarily suit him, but he is clearly an exceptional figure. What level would you make Einstein? Zero level is no good, unless you're prepared to bend the 3.5 rules - because this character should have an Intelligence as rigorous as anyone he's ever like to come across. Solution: give him 8 or 12 levels of a low-BAB, high-skills npc class. It's an option, not a problem. No, the absurdity would be in having to make all powerful NPCs practitioners of the pc classes. The npc classes are excellent - and under-used. Though Eberron looks set to change that for the better...
Hellcow 11-14-04, 01:30 PM	There is a lot that I could say on this subject, but it's not right for me to neglect the Ask Keith thread in favor of other topics I find interesting. So if you'd like to see my thoughts on the matter, raise it there. Briefly, however, I will say that it remains our intent that there are few high level allies for the players. The NPC in question is unlikely to be an ally, and he is an adept as opposed to a cleric; if you do a straight comparison in terms of character benefits, caster level aside, a 17th level adept has 59 HP, +8/+3 BAB, +5/+5/+10 saves, and a single 5th level spell. An 11th level cleric has 49 HP, +8/+3 BAB, +7/+3/+7 saves, and two 6th level spells (along with three 5th level spells), not to mention far better armor and weapon proficiency. CR aside, I'd personally take an 11th level cleric over a 17th level adept any day of the week. And by the typical DMG Demographics table, you would have a decent chance of having an 18th level cleric in a city the size of Sharn. As is, the highest level cleric is 11th level. And saying that he's not an important figure is, in my opinion, unwise. He is the high priest of the religion in the largest city in Khorvaire, not to mention being a wealthy man. Both of these things give him influence. And note that he's not at the headquarters of Vol because he is not in fact a supporter of the Emerald Claw. If your point is that he's not in Atur (HQ of the Blood of Vol, not Vol herself), true, but again, level and rank do not necessarily coincide in Eberron! You may find a cardinal in Flamekeep who is lower level than Ythana. Anyhow, there's much more I could say on the subject, including the 17th level commoner. If you're interested, bring it up on the Ask Keith Thread.
Magagumo 11-14-04, 02:18 PM	Personally, I would like to remind ppl that Nonassociated classes (like ht e NPC classes) should be treated as 1/2 CR- As HEllcow pointed out, the 18th level adept has 1 5th level spell... just like that 9th level cleric or wizard (sure, he has a feew more HD & saves, but his stats are all much lower due to non-elte status, you give them EL treasure- not NPC cash, and you absically she that they are equivalent- power v. a bit more endurance). As for the 17th lvl commonner... try CR 4 ;) Commoner really is 1/4 CR per HD, as the horrible hp, bad attack & saves, and poor skills demonstrate. So yea, I find it to be an excelletn sue of the rules- not everyone need be an elite, combat-focused class, but they still can demonstrate their wisdom and experience as power player NPCs.
Brastan 11-15-04, 04:55 AM	As I skim Sharn:CoT I'm seeling mid to high level NPCs scattered though out. My big suppreisw as looking an one of the thief guilds and seeing a 3rd level rogue in charge. :) Turns out I miss read and its an Ogermage 3rd level rogue CR 11, which makes more sense. Few to no high level Allies is the order of the day for Eberron, not no high level NPCs. Also even with high level characters around they tend to balance each other out point for point in the setting. Take the two rival guilds for example, neither one can displace the other without PC assistance. But in siding with one they make major enemies out of the other. The setting is working out very well.
ChronosCrow 11-15-04, 05:57 AM	There is a lot that I could say on this subject...And saying that he's not an important figure is, in my opinion, unwise...level and rank do not necessarily coincide in Eberron! You may find a cardinal in Flamekeep who is lower level than Ythana. I stand corrected by the man. In retrospect, and Keith's guidance, I understand the situation a lot better. Thanks.