Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AvonRekaes 06-02-07, 10:19 PM	Does anyone know what the state of decay is for an 80-years-dead human(oid) corpse? Are we talking completely skeletal? Dried skin hanging off rotting muscles? I suppose environment also matters. Without giving anything away to players that might be reading, the Depths of Sharn, so I guess fairly humid. Also, does anyone think the differences between, say, an elf, human, and a changeling (dead natural form) would be discernable?
gensuke626 06-02-07, 10:21 PM	I think bones at best....I mean...especailly in Sharn, there are things that'd strip the body of flesh and skin...maybe even crack open the bones for the marrow...
AvonRekaes 06-02-07, 10:25 PM	Hrm. Alright well.. lets just say.. hypothetically ::looks out for phantom players:: There's something keeping random vermin and such away from the bodies, but doesn't disturb the bodies itself?
Rechan 06-02-07, 10:30 PM	A few years ago I took a forensic anthropology class (By the county medical examiner, in fact). It's been a while, but: If left to the elements, a body decays to skeletal remains (with some stuff still attached) in about two and a half weeks. If there's no sunlight/flies, if it's in a confined space, submerged in water, not touching soil, embalmed, or the temperature is cold, this slows down the decomp process. 80 years? That sucker's skeletal. If it was in a fairly confined space (like a trunk), it would be mummified. But if it's just laying in a hole in the depths, it's bones. The clothes have likely rotted away as well, all that's left is probably really tough, durable stuff like boots.
AvonRekaes 06-02-07, 10:36 PM	Thank you for that expert insight Rechan. Do you think there's anything that might indicate the length of time a body's been dead for 80 years? Like something to justify maybe a DC 25 Heal check being able to figure it out.
Rechan 06-02-07, 10:44 PM	From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition#Factors): The rate and the manner in which an animal body decomposes is strongly affected by a number of factors. In a roughly descending degree of importance, those factors include: * Temperature * The availability of oxygen * Prior embalming * Cause of death * Burial, and depth of burial * Access by scavengers * Trauma, including wounds and crushing blows * Humidity, or wetness * Rainfall * Body size and weight * Clothing * The surface on which the body rests * Foods/objects inside the specimens digestive tract (bacon compared to lettuce) The speed with which decomposition occurs varies greatly. Factors such as temperature, humidity, and the season of death all determine how fast a fresh body will skeletonize or mummify. A basic guide for the effect of environment on decomposition is given as Casper's Law (or Ratio): when there is free access of air a body decomposes twice as fast than if immersed in water and eight times faster than if buried in earth. The most important variable is a body's accessibility to insects, particularly flies. On the surface in tropical areas, invertebrates alone can easily reduce a fully fleshed corpse to clean bones in under two weeks. The skeleton itself is not permanent; acids in soils can reduce it to unrecognizable components; this is one reason given for the lack of human remains found in the wreckage of the Titanic, even in parts of the ship considered inaccessible to scavengers. Freshly skeletonized bone is often called "green" bone and has a characteristic greasy feel. Under certain conditions (normally cool, damp soil) bodies may undergo saponification and develop a waxy substance called adipocere, caused by the action of soil chemicals on the body's proteins and fats. The formation of adipocere slows decomposition by inhibiting the bacteria that cause putrefaction. In extremely dry or cold conditions, the normal process of decomposition is halted, by either lack of moisture or temperature controls on bacterial and enzymatic action, causing the body to be preserved as a mummy. Frozen mummies commonly restart the decomposition process when thawed whilst heat desiccated mummies remain so unless exposed to moisture. I forgot about the dry condition. You can find people who have mummified in desert environments due to the heat and the lack of moisture (and the fact flies aren't everywhere). If the Depths are very very dry, and lack of insect activity, they could have parchment-skin stuck to them, holding the bones together (barely). Maybe some hair left. 80 years is a long time though. However, Sharn is located in a wet, warm area, so I imagine there's lots of humidity. I don't know if the Depths would be humid; natural caves have wetness, but if it's for the most part sealed off from the surface and the rock isn't natural (but ruins), then the air may very well be Very Stale. No movement of air could contribute to mummification, especially if it's in an area that's sealed up (like from a cave-in, or just a shut door in a fortified area of a ruin in the Depths). Do you think there's anything that might indicate the length of time a body's been dead for 80 years? I think that as bones get older, they tend to turn darker. Like, brown. Bones will bleach white if they're left in the sun sure, but underground? They'd probably get real dirty brown, like the color of a brown paper bag. Also the fact that they have no clothes left except the durable parts should be another clue. Maybe the fact that the leather parts of their clothes are mostly gone too - that would suggest they hadn't even lasted. Also, this might be cheesy, but how about if there's a scrap of paper (Newspapers/books can last a long time if not exposed to the weather) that gives some indication of the date. Perhaps an event that happened that they could look up, or a diary entry.
Rechan 06-02-07, 10:49 PM	Also, bones decay too. Just very slowly. So maybe show that the bones are wore away in some area due to the degredation of time. If they were exposed to the elements, this would be Faster, but we're dealing with a mostly stable environment with no vermin gnawing on the bones.
AvonRekaes 06-02-07, 10:52 PM	Thanks Rechan, I really appreciate all the information, I hadn't expected such detailed help. This will really help color the scene.
Rechan 06-02-07, 10:58 PM	NP. :) May I ask how the bodies got down there? If they were trapped there, you might want to leave signs that the victims wern't all dead. If they were trapped somewhere, maybe scratches on the door where they tried to get out (or weapon marks, for that matter). Maybe one of the victims turned to cannibalism to stay alive. Heck, maybe one of them got out - and is found several hundred yards from the rest, having succumbed to his wounds. If it's just a dump site, I'm not sure what I can suggest that would help flesh that out (no pun intended). Maybe the fact that the area the bodies are is locked, sealed up, or concealed somehow. Remember, every year Sharn has a "hunt" in the depths - they release a monster into the depths and expert (or foolish) hunters go in after it. If the killer is aware of this, then he would try to cover his tracks unless this was a very isolated area. 80 years is a long time, so if this was a killer, and the party is still hunting the killer, then it's either undead or something like an Elf. If it's more animalistic (and organic), you might make this area its 'nest', or a temporary nest. Maybe have some petrified scat around it.
AvonRekaes 06-02-07, 11:01 PM	Well for all my PC-paranoia, I really doubt they read these forums, so I'll just go ahead and spill the beans. The bodies died in a combat, actually closer to Skyway than the Depths. The reason why they're in the depths is cause they died fighting in the Crystal Tower, trying to stop and ensure it's fall. (Depending on the side of the battle they were on.) Part of the Crystal Tower ended up smashing into Godsgate (now Fallen), and in my campaign the Crystal Tower's "engine room" (read: Eldritch Device) was part of the tower that didn't end up in the Dagger and plummeted through a tower to finally rest in the Depths. The room itself is still intact because of the heavy reinforcement to protect the "engine".
Rechan 06-02-07, 11:02 PM	Also, I'd give a Heal (30) check, a Profession (Doctor) or (necromancer) check to tell the gender of the bodies found. If you study the pelvis and the skull, you can designate who was what gender. Race adds another level here (namely size), but gender should be the same all around.
Rechan 06-02-07, 11:03 PM	Well for all my PC-paranoia, I really doubt they read these forums, so I'll just go ahead and spill the beans. The bodies died in a combat, actually closer to Skyway than the Depths. The reason why they're in the depths is cause they died fighting in the Crystal Tower, trying to stop and ensure it's fall. (Depending on the side of the battle they were on.) That's weird. Because anything that fell from the Crystal Tower would likely be in Fallen (where the tower fell), unless they somehow got scattered even deeper than that.
AvonRekaes 06-02-07, 11:08 PM	the Depths are just the layers of the city closest to ground level. the Cogs are actually below the depths, underground.
Rechan 06-02-07, 11:15 PM	If this is the case, I doubt you're going to have too many bodies that are intact. I mean, think out it like standing on the top floor of a building when it's demolished. That sucker is coming down and everything is coming down on top of you.
AvonRekaes 06-02-07, 11:17 PM	Well the bodies might be missing a few limbs and show great amounts of abuse, but the entire "engine room" remained intact, so they weren't crushed to paste.
Cifer 06-03-07, 06:49 AM	Also, I'd give a Heal (30) check, a Profession (Doctor) or (necromancer) check to tell the gender of the bodies found. I'd say 30 is a bit much. Getting to know the age of the guys just from the bones sounds a little harder than comparing pelvis sizes... Otherwise, I'd also advise giving one of the corpses a non-dated journal heavily encased in wax clothes and other moisture repellants so the PCs can research the facts within it.
Edymnion 06-03-07, 02:14 PM	I'd say 30 is a bit much. Getting to know the age of the guys just from the bones sounds a little harder than comparing pelvis sizes...Actually, it sounds about right to me. Even professionals have a hard time determining gender of a skeleton today, and can only make educated guesses at gender. There are clues in the skull and pelvis, but they are not universal enough to be definative. I mean, I was watching a thing on egyptian mummies and the trained egyptoligist basically went "Well, there's no extra bits between it's legs, so its probably female." And yes, these bones would be skeletal by the time they were found, but no, I don't think there would be any signifcant decay to the bones themselves. The easiest way to date the bodies, IMO, would be for one of them to have been holding something metal with the date inscribed on it, like a necklace or pendant. Maybe a medal. "Blue Arrow of Valor - 1923", something like that.
Nuclear_Buddha 06-04-07, 01:30 PM	Actually, it sounds about right to me. Even professionals have a hard time determining gender of a skeleton today, and can only make educated guesses at gender. There are clues in the skull and pelvis, but they are not universal enough to be definative. I mean, I was watching a thing on egyptian mummies and the trained egyptoligist basically went "Well, there's no extra bits between it's legs, so its probably female." Huh? In a bio-anthropology course I took one of our assignments was examining skeletal remains (pelvises and skulls) and determining whether the remains were male or female. It's not an exact science, but it's definitely not voodoo. That said, damage to the remains will make the job tougher.
Edymnion 06-04-07, 02:19 PM	It's not an exact science, but it's definitely not voodoo.I didn't say it was voodoo, I said it was more of an educated guess. If you've studied it, you know there is not one thing you can point to and go "Ah hah, this skeleton is male!" and be right 100% of the time. You just have to go with the indicators and build up to where you can say with a degree of certainty one way or the other.
DoveArrow 06-04-07, 02:32 PM	From wikipedia: There are many differences between the male and female human skeletons. Most prominent is the difference in the pelvis, owing to characteristics required for the processes of gestation and partruition (childbirth). The shape of a female pelvis is flatter, more rounded and proportionally larger to allow the head of the foetus to pass. Men tend to have slightly thicker and longer limbs and digit bones (phalanges), while women tend to have narrower rib cages, smaller teeth, less angular mandibles, less pronounced cranial features such as the brow ridges and occipital protuberance (the small bump at the back of the skull), and the carrying angle of the forearm is more pronounced in females.
DoveArrow 06-04-07, 02:59 PM	Thank you for that expert insight Rechan. Do you think there's anything that might indicate the length of time a body's been dead for 80 years? Like something to justify maybe a DC 25 Heal check being able to figure it out. A successful Heal check (DC 10) would reveal that the bodies have been dead for some time. If the PCs succeed by 5 or more, they also realize that the cause of death was the result of having been crushed by falling debris. If the PCs succeed at a Wisdom check (DC 5), they conclude that the people died from having been trapped in a falling tower. If they know about the history of the Crystal Tower, they know how long the people have been dead, as well.
Edymnion 06-04-07, 05:38 PM	From wikipedia:There are many differences between the male and female human skeletons. Most prominent is the difference in the pelvis, owing to characteristics required for the processes of gestation and partruition (childbirth). The shape of a female pelvis is flatter, more rounded and proportionally larger to allow the head of the foetus to pass. Men tend to have slightly thicker and longer limbs and digit bones (phalanges), while women tend to have narrower rib cages, smaller teeth, less angular mandibles, less pronounced cranial features such as the brow ridges and occipital protuberance (the small bump at the back of the skull), and the carrying angle of the forearm is more pronounced in females.Notice how often it says "tends", and says how one gender is more of this or that than the other. As in, you generally need a skeleton of a known gender to compare it to, or have exceptional knowledge of the skeletal system for all size ranges to be able to spot the differances, while no single thing is enough to say one way or the other. You can have a male with short arms, a woman with a larger skull bump, etc. You still have to look at everything, and based on that assign odds as to what gender the person was. But when no single indicator can be 100%, then no combination of factors can ever be 100% either. Sure, you can be 99% sure that it was Male or Female, but without some way to positively identify who it was and check the records, you can't be 100%.
Nuclear_Buddha 06-05-07, 12:52 PM	I didn't say it was voodoo, I said it was more of an educated guess. If you've studied it, you know there is not one thing you can point to and go "Ah hah, this skeleton is male!" and be right 100% of the time. You just have to go with the indicators and build up to where you can say with a degree of certainty one way or the other. Well, you're right in that regard; we weren't just looking at one fragment of bone and deciding. Having all the pieces makes it more certain. But it's definitely not impossible. Anyway, why are we discussing forensics here? Surely there's some sort of magic that can make the determination infallibly.
Gurv 06-05-07, 04:51 PM	Real-world techniques may not be voodoo. But I thought this was a discussion of D&D. Didn't you know that burning espwood fibers (included in the standard healers kit due to its use in stopping magical bleeding) within the ribcage of a corpse will tell you both the sex of a corpse as well as the approximate length of time since it died? The flame burns blue if male, orange if female, and the thickness of the smoke increases the longer the corpse has lain dead. You'd know that, if you'd made a DC 25 Heal check.
Subtle Knife 06-06-07, 08:49 PM	Ooo! A Pathology question! I wish I'd got here earlier! 1) You can skeletonize an animal in a few days, given the right temperatures and humidity. I have seen cattle and horses become partially skeletonized in 2 days in an Ontario July without any evidence of predation. 2)Alternately, given very specific circumstances (pH, cold temperatures, low oxygen tensions), a cadaver can remain remarkably well-preserved. Classic examples include Scandanavian peat-bog mummies (who are not artificially mummified, but rather preserved by the natural conditions of the peat bogs), and the "Iceman" that was found a few decades ago in a glacier. Given the climate of Sharn (southern aspect of continent; warm, dark and wet (constantly raining)), I would suggest a relatively rapid skeletonization of any remains, likely with fragmentation of the skeleton. After 80 years, there might not be much left; you could place the remains in a hot dry area (such as in the deep cogs) or in a pool of slightly acidic waste (sewer offal), in order to preserve them. 3) The "tendencies" for there to be sexual skeletal dimorphisms in the human are actually remarkably consistent (particularly pelvic anatomy); in those circumstances where they are not, one is more likely to be unable to tell one way or another, rather than mistaking a male for a female. 4) The accurate study of anatomy (by and large) is a remarkably recent event (within the past few hundred years, excluding a few very interesting historical individuals). This is largely due to superstitions against defiling human remains; as such, in the real world in the middle ages, even the most learned of individuals likely would have known nothing of the gender interpretation of skeletonized human remains. Of course, this is fantasy. You need to set these thresholds for yourself - how well do you think a) the average individual or b) a high-level healer/necromancer would know of this sort of thing in the setting of Eberron? SK