Post/Author/DateTime	Post
yossarius 04-19-06, 09:24 PM	In our last game, the group pooled all their money to have the group's fighter permenantly enlarged. As they were discussing it, I tried to impress upon them that, while it's a good idea from a rules standpoint, try to imagine how inconvenient it would be to be nine feet tall. They were nonplussed, and went ahead with their plans. So, my question is, how many way can you think of to demonstrate how inconvinient it is to be 9 feet tall? This is a list of what I've come up with to this point: Double or triple cost for clothing, armor, some equipment Having to crouch or even crawl around in public building possibility of not fitting into dungeons possibility of requiring extra food and water penalty to certain skills (Hide in particular) An extreme shift in exactly which female NPC's will engage in carnal relations with the character being mistaken for a giant Anybody have anything else for this?
Edymnion 04-19-06, 09:36 PM	For starters, he's likely not going to be able to sleep in a bed ever again, unless he comissions one made, as there typically aren't any Large sized races that make comfy beds and go around frequenting inns. And yes, I'd double the amount of food and water he requires every day (and I would be enforcing those rules for his character). Any chance of stealth he had is now pretty much gone. Like you said, everybody is going to assume he's a giant, nobody is going to believe he's a normal human. Chances are he will not find any weapons his size that are of any quality. And just to be a bastard, after he got everything set up to be usable at his new size, with his custom made armor and weapons, I'd have somebody Dispell him, ruining the Permanent enchantment, and making his armor and weapons useless to him. Yes, I would screw over a powergamer that tried to pull this. He'd catch it coming (penalize him for being big) and going (once he settles in, yank it away, and penalizing him for being small again).
Raziel_Brokodar 04-19-06, 09:39 PM	For starters, he's likely not going to be able to sleep in a bed ever again, unless he comissions one made, as there typically aren't any Large sized races that make comfy beds and go around frequenting inns. And yes, I'd double the amount of food and water he requires every day (and I would be enforcing those rules for his character). Any chance of stealth he had is now pretty much gone. Like you said, everybody is going to assume he's a giant, nobody is going to believe he's a normal human. Chances are he will not find any weapons his size that are of any quality. And just to be a bastard, after he got everything set up to be usable at his new size, with his custom made armor and weapons, I'd have somebody Dispell him, ruining the Permanent enchantment, and making his armor and weapons useless to him. Yes, I would screw over a powergamer that tried to pull this. He'd catch it coming (penalize him for being big) and going (once he settles in, yank it away, and penalizing him for being small again). hehehe... that'll teach em'! :P
treehouse916 04-19-06, 09:43 PM	Is there a particular reason you want to screw your player? Becoming permanently enlarged is a core rules option with plenty of natural disadvantages (size penalty to attacks, Dex penalty, Hide penalty, etc.) If you are trying to show him that there -are- disadvantages to being permanently enlarged, I'd point out the ones in the book rather than scrounge for extra ones...
Pinky's brain 04-19-06, 09:47 PM	Double or triple cost for clothing, armor, some equipment possibility of requiring extra food and water Why? Don't these fall under worn and carried objects and are thus also enlarged when equipped/imbibed?
yossarius 04-19-06, 10:20 PM	Is there a particular reason you want to screw your player? Becoming permanently enlarged is a core rules option with plenty of natural disadvantages (size penalty to attacks, Dex penalty, Hide penalty, etc.) If you are trying to show him that there -are- disadvantages to being permanently enlarged, I'd point out the ones in the book rather than scrounge for extra ones... I don't see this as "screwing the player." When you give a pc a magic item, do you only give them encounters where those items are useful? Of course not. You sometimes find ways to NPCs to neutralize those items, if only temporarily, to make those encounters more difficult. But, when a does something like this, it's not the same thing. The city guards can take your +3 bastard sword away before they throw you in a cell, but three feet in height is a difficult weaopn to confiscate. I'm not saying I'm going to have an artificer throw a disjunction at him in the very next adventure, but you have to do something.
Belabras 04-19-06, 10:30 PM	Why? Don't these fall under worn and carried objects and are thus also enlarged when equipped/imbibed? I'm pretty sure that doesn't work unless he's wearing them when the spell is cast.
Splendide 04-19-06, 10:38 PM	1. Being asked to get stuff down from the top shelf. 2. Being asked to change the candles in the chandeliers. 3. Dodging hanging signs 4. Umbrellas are too small to keep all of you dry 5. Listening to gnomes incurs a distance penalty to Listen checks. 6. Human pickpockets have greatly improved access to the pouches on your belt. 7. Too heavy to dance on tabletops. 8. More likely to be struck by lightning. Inventing extra (and permanent) mechanical penalties like Edymnion suggests is just unfair. There are enough roleplaying penalties already. In the example of not being able to be disarmed by the guards, the fact is that every time you're near a fight, the guards are almost going to suspect you started it and/or were involved in it. So while they can't disarm your giant size, they can certainly arrest you more often, because you're so bloody big and likely to be in fights.
Splendide 04-19-06, 10:39 PM	I'm pretty sure that doesn't work unless he's wearing them when the spell is cast.Magic weapons, clothing and other items typically adjust to size. His Explorer's Outfit may need replacing though.
yossarius 04-19-06, 10:43 PM	Co-incidentally, I just turned on the Andre the Giant biography, and it gave me some more ideas. Impossible to get drunk (the PC in question has established himself as a heavy drinker. Very prominent in a crowd (always stands out, can never blend in). shunned by polite society, much in the same way that warforged might be. people constantly picking a fight with you. penalty to dexterity checks involving fine work (good luck learning to be a jeweler, for example)
Splendide 04-19-06, 10:48 PM	penalty to dexterity checks involving fine work (good luck learning to be a jeweler, for example) Is it Andre's size that gives him a penalty, or is he just not very dextrous? I've seen people with thumb hands beat me constantly on fine manipulation and I've been told I have pianist-like long fingers.
allenchan 04-19-06, 11:09 PM	Enlarge person is only a first level spell, and this is Eberron, Im fairly confident that people wouldnt be -that- backwards about it (and I strongly disagree with giving him any more penalties then the ones already associated with the spell, from a mechanical standpoint) and a -4 to hide doesnt mean any chance of stealth is gone. There's plenty of Large-sized stealth creatures in dnd. Anyways, had I DM'd I would have persuaded them to buy a ring of Enlarge Person at will, its fairly inexpensive.
Subedei 04-19-06, 11:13 PM	I've never come across a situation where it's necessary to intentionally penalize my players for anything. Just have everyone else in the world react however they'd logically react, everything should work itself out just fine.
Daag 04-19-06, 11:27 PM	Being large has a lot of disadvantages. - He'll be more likely to have to squeeze (PHB 148), making it more difficult for him to move around. - Magic weapons and armor do not resize to fit characters, so he'll have to more than likely buy equipment specifically for his size. - Any items he may have been wearing at the time of casting the spell, will go back to their original size assuming he ever lets go of them. - Weapons and armor cost twice as much as the listed PHB price (as noted in the PHB). This is of course just the base cost, so +1 Large full plate armor costs 4,150 gp. - He suffers a -4 to hide checks, not to mention the other penalties of having a lower AC and Dex. - He weighs a ton more, making certain situations possibly more harmful. - Eventually, dispels will get him, and all the money spent on equipment will either have to be respent, or he will have to get resized. - Never ride a horse again, making overland travel slower. Having been in a campaign with a large PC, it seemed to be more of a hassle than anything else, especially in environments designed for medium/small size creatures. I'm curious to know how much you had them spend on getting the enlarge permanent. Was it cast by a PC who didn't mind the XP expenditure? Or did you charge them the usual 5 gp/XP for the Permanency spell? Daag
Subedei 04-19-06, 11:35 PM	While I don't agree with designed NPCs specifically to destroy a PC unless those NPCs have had an opportunity and a motive to study him, dispels are certainly the way to go here.
Mr.$mith 04-20-06, 02:40 AM	Dont forget that he gets a +2 to str, but a -2 to Dex, and a -1 to AC, for a total for -2 AC.
Just another user 04-20-06, 05:58 AM	I hope he likes to walk because I don't think he is going to find a mount of his size very soon. And will he even fit into a lighting rail passenger wagon? Or is it only cargo wagons for him. And I hope those bridges in Sharn are well built, too. ;)
Gurv 04-20-06, 07:11 AM	I think the penalties already presented in the rules are enough. No need to mess with his food intake (unless you're in the habit of counting calories for the other PCs already). But the points about finding/buying Large clothes and equipment are valid. As DM, you should keep it in close memory that he is so big. The weight alone will cause problems (remember that the weight of his equipment is likewise increased). The rest of it is roleplaying. People will notice him, and they will remember him. He won't be just another "cloaked figure in a dark corner" when the party wants to lay low at the local tavern. As others have noted, furniture and buildings will be inconvenient for him. He might be refused passage on the lightning rail and ships, or at least required to pay an additional amount. And if he's one of those characters who spends most of his downtime "wenching", he is in for a terrible shock when the ladies are suddenly finding excuses to be elsewhere each night. If you're looking for a way to show this player the error of his ways, do it in an Eberronesque way- have an Ashbound druid see what he has done to himself.
DarkWarriorKarg 04-20-06, 07:20 AM	What is this? Screw the player day? :mad: So the player wants to take advantage of a Core Rules option, specifically outlined under a spell description. Big friggen deal! Let him pay the XP/Gold/Whatever, then hit him with a dispel magic in a combat or 2. "Permanency" ain't so permanent in 3.x. You're worried over nothing.
Sieylianna 04-20-06, 07:37 AM	In our last game, the group pooled all their money to have the group's fighter permenantly enlarged. As they were discussing it, I tried to impress upon them that, while it's a good idea from a rules standpoint, try to imagine how inconvenient it would be to be nine feet tall. They were nonplussed, and went ahead with their plans. Read the rules on squeezing (-4 to hit and AC) and make sure a lot of fights take place in 5' wide alleys and corridors. Ed
Just another user 04-20-06, 08:54 AM	Is it Andre's size that gives him a penalty, or is he just not very dextrous? I've seen people with thumb hands beat me constantly on fine manipulation and I've been told I have pianist-like long fingers. By the rules Andre Roussimoff (no, I din't know his name. I had to google it. :) ) is a human and hence by the RAW he would still be medium sized.
DragonWatcher 04-20-06, 10:15 AM	I would just suggest playing NPCs and monsters intelligently. Anything that they fight with enough wisdom to utilize pack tactics will nearly always team up on the perceived biggest threat first. Guess who the perceived biggest threat in the party just became. ;) I agree that you don't need to make up extra rules to deal with this. It is totally logical for every wizard, archer, etc. to aim their distance attacks at the enlarged guy who is laying havoc to their allies. It's also reasonable for melee fighters to flank the hell out of an enlarged opponent. Remember, it's better to have one dead opponent than three wounded ones... most players live by this rule, there's no reason that their opponents shouldn't also. :)
stembolt 04-20-06, 08:19 PM	Nonplussed means bewildered or put at a loss for words.
Koriel 04-20-06, 08:41 PM	Have an ogre girl develop a mad crush on him and want to follow him around and write him embarrassingly bad ogre love letters because he's the cutest 9' tall hunk of beefcake in town. If she can score a philter of love to use on him, even better. :inlove:
Edymnion 04-20-06, 09:52 PM	Magic weapons, clothing and other items typically adjust to size.Not in 3.5 they don't. Magic weapons never resized by default, magic armor no longer resizes in 3.5, and clothing never resized. He would have only what he was wearing when he was enlarged. Thats it. Inventing extra (and permanent) mechanical penalties like Edymnion suggests is just unfair.And nothing I said was a mechanical penalty for a house rule. Larger creatures require more food (and smaller creatures require [less). Armor larger than medium costs more to have made, its in the PHB. Unless the DM is handing out nothing but tailor made loot, the odds of rolling a Large sized weapon on the treasure tables are slightly higher than the chance that I'll marry a billionaire supermodel. Inns in Khovaire do not typically get Large sized guests, so there would be no Large sized beds. Giants are stereotypically known for being brutes, and anybody that sees a Large sized man is *NOT* going to think enlargement, they're going to think Giant. His stealth chances are dead, not only because of the fact the size increase carries stealth penalties, but he needs to be able to find cover his size to hide behind, which is much harder to find than it is for a medium sized character.Trust me, if I really wanted to screw him over for it, those would be the least of his problems. For example, every monster and enemy is going to attack him first from now on, because he's the biggest threat, literally. I'd start double checking what kind of ground the party was working on to see if he would fall through it or not (Flame help him if he tried to cross an old bridge!). I'd put more caves into the game that he couldn't fit into without hunching up, making him incapable of fighting. All the NPCs would automatically start a step or two closer to hostile for him than they would for the rest of the party. And thats not even the worst of it. I could make that character's life such a pain that he'd fall on his own sword just to be done with it. However, it wouldn't come to that, as I would have outright told him no, he can't do that, and gone back to playing the game. I don't get even with players for screwing things up with this sort of thing, I just don't let them screw it up to begin with.
aelryinth 04-20-06, 10:43 PM	A Permanent Enlarge is generally not so easy to get rid of with a Dispel Magic. remember, the dispeller has to be higher level then the one who cast the Permanency. The party, if smart, will simply find the highest level caster they can, and make that very unlikely. Also, many DM's rule that a dispel magic doesn't burn the Permanency...it suppresses the spell, like a magical item, because of the xp cost. After all, its a Permanent spell, not a spell of unending duration, is the logic used. But! the latter is a house rule. Just take care to enforce weight and size penalties. Among other things, he counts as 4 people for teleports...if they have to leave somewhere quick, its leave him behind, or everyone else...there are a LOT of ways to make him regret it, although the combat bonuses are nicely munchkinny. ===Aelryinth
memorax 04-20-06, 11:07 PM	What is this? Screw the player day? :mad: So the player wants to take advantage of a Core Rules option, specifically outlined under a spell description. Big friggen deal! Let him pay the XP/Gold/Whatever, then hit him with a dispel magic in a combat or 2. "Permanency" ain't so permanent in 3.x. You're worried over nothing. Completely agree 100%. How about some more constructive responses than "let's see how we can screw someone over for using something allowed in the rules".
Straylight 04-21-06, 03:17 AM	The question that I haven't seen anyone ask yet (and it's the VERY FIRST question you SHOULD ask), is why does the Fighter's player want to be Large? Is it a metagame excuse to munch-out his character, or does the character really have a good reason for wanting to be freakishly huge? If it's the former, then by all means, give him a reminder that the DM wields ultimate power at the table, and that you can't out-munchkin an annoyed DM. If it's the latter, though, I'd let him live with the built-in difficulties and saddle him with some (mostly humorous or plot-driven) roleplay difficulties, rather than trying to smack down a player who'se got a good reason for his actions. Also, remember that this is Eberron we're talking about. There are parts of this world (Droaam) where having an Orge or Troll stagger into your Inn looking for food and a bed isn't such an unheard-of thing. Uncommon, but not unheard-of.
Setherial 04-21-06, 04:55 AM	For starters, he's likely not going to be able to sleep in a bed ever again, unless he comissions one made, as there typically aren't any Large sized races that make comfy beds and go around frequenting inns. And yes, I'd double the amount of food and water he requires every day (and I would be enforcing those rules for his character). Any chance of stealth he had is now pretty much gone. Like you said, everybody is going to assume he's a giant, nobody is going to believe he's a normal human. Chances are he will not find any weapons his size that are of any quality. And just to be a bastard, after he got everything set up to be usable at his new size, with his custom made armor and weapons, I'd have somebody Dispell him, ruining the Permanent enchantment, and making his armor and weapons useless to him. Yes, I would screw over a powergamer that tried to pull this. He'd catch it coming (penalize him for being big) and going (once he settles in, yank it away, and penalizing him for being small again). wow man, it must be fun having you as a DM If I were a fighter making my living doing mercenary jobs and stuff and having to compete with many other mercenaries (and the war must have created countless) I might wanne go through something as extreme as having myself turned into a giant. Ok life among the small folk will be more difficult but think of your reputation as a fighter. One could become legendary ... and rich... Also being 9 feet tall is not that extreme, the ceilings in my own house are about 11 feet from the ground. If he makes a few thousand gold he has enough to have himself build a custom house. And if ever he finds a nice chick he can have her enlarged too :) As a DM I would not go out of my way making life hell for this player. Point out the difficulties when he walks through town but also the extra attention he gets. If he has low charisma he might look like a tall dumb brute and people will fear him, if he has high charisma (which is unlikly) the potential is great, he can become a hero of legend, loved and awed where ever he goes.
Edymnion 04-21-06, 11:34 AM	wow man, it must be fun having you as a DMFrom what I'm told it is. I'm happy to work with my players when they want to do something weird that makes their character better. But getting permanently Enlarged just to be a better combat machine? Thats not roleplaying, thats just munckin powergaming. If they want to be a freak, then they're going to get treated like a freak. I do the same thing to half-dragons and other monsterous PCs in my non-eberron games. If you want to be treated like a person by the majority of the setting, you have to play the PHB races. If you want to be a monster race, thats fine, but you're going to be treated like a monster by everyone you meet. Picking things like race and class in my games just because of mechanical advantages is a great way to find yourself in hot water. I always put flavor above mechanics, and its my belief that if you can't make a plain old human into an exciting and fun character, then you aren't good enough yet to really deserve to play as any other race either (because you'd obviously be relying on stereotypes to act as crutches, since you can't make an interesting character without those crutches). The rules of the world don't ignore themselves just because somebody wants to play a half-illithid half-drow giant penguin.
Kreistor1 04-21-06, 11:44 AM	From the SRD: Enlarge Person Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Strength 1 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 round Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One humanoid creature Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size. A humanoid creature whose size increases to Large has a space of 10 feet and a natural reach of 10 feet. This spell does not change the target’s speed. If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it— the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size. All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,. Enlarge person counters and dispels reduce person. Enlarge person can be made permanent with a permanency spell. Material Component: A pinch of powdered iron. Edymnion, note "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell." There is no modifier in there that says magical equipment doesn't increase in size. "Magical properties of enlarged items " demands that magical items can be enlarged, or else the sentence fails to make sense. So, yes, equipment scales up to the new size. (Personally, I wouldn't say the Permanent Enlarge is permanent on anything except the Person, so "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. " hurts if you get disarmed or take your armor off for any reason.)
DragonWatcher 04-21-06, 01:39 PM	...Magic weapons never resized by default, magic armor no longer resizes in 3.5, and clothing never resized. He would have only what he was wearing when he was enlarged. Thats it. And nothing I said was a mechanical penalty for a house rule. Emphasis mine. Edymnion never said that Enlarge wouldn't affect what the character was wearing or holding... just that the chances of finding large sized treasure would be slim to none (unless of course, your in Xen'drick or fighting large-sized monsters), and I would have to agree with that.
Wolfwood2 04-21-06, 05:16 PM	From what I'm told it is. I'm happy to work with my players when they want to do something weird that makes their character better. But getting permanently Enlarged just to be a better combat machine? Thats not roleplaying, thats just munckin powergaming. That's nonsense. Who among us hasn't occasionally (okay, mostly when we were kids) had the fantasy of being bigger and stronger than we are? In a world where the magic is available, why wouldn't a warrior take advantage of it to make himself a better fighter? Sure there's going to be inconveniences, perhaps more than the character initially considered, but the desire to be big and strong is a very understandable and human one. As has been pointed out several times, this is a core rules option that requires casting two spells. It's not some weird convoluted character build that requires five prestige classes and changing alignment twice. Calling it, "munchkin powergaming" makes about as much sense as calling it fascist. It's just randomly slapping a negative label on something you don't like. I think the focus should be on finding fun and interesting consequences, some of which might be negative and some of which might not be. Yeah there might be moments when the rest of the party is visitng the halfling's house, and Large guy has to stand out in the rain. For every moment like that, though, how about a moment where he grabs a little girl's cat out of a tree for her and feels like maybe being big and strong is kind of cool. If they want to be a freak, then they're going to get treated like a freak. I do the same thing to half-dragons and other monsterous PCs in my non-eberron games. If you want to be treated like a person by the majority of the setting, you have to play the PHB races. If you want to be a monster race, thats fine, but you're going to be treated like a monster by everyone you meet. If you don't think a race is appropriate for your campaign, then by all means ban it. This passive aggressive, "You can play that race, but I'm going to make sure you have a miserable time and don't enjoy gaming until you make a different character," business seems intentionally nasty. Picking things like race and class in my games just because of mechanical advantages is a great way to find yourself in hot water. I always put flavor above mechanics, and its my belief that if you can't make a plain old human into an exciting and fun character, then you aren't good enough yet to really deserve to play as any other race either (because you'd obviously be relying on stereotypes to act as crutches, since you can't make an interesting character without those crutches). So players have to be "good enough" before they're allowed to play D&D in a certain way? Yeesh. The rules of the world don't ignore themselves just because somebody wants to play a half-illithid half-drow giant penguin. Of course not, but if a DM has approved such a character in the first place, he has an obligation to find a way to make playing a half-illithid half-drow giant penguin into a satisfying gaming experience while staying within the rules of the world. Maybe the character has exciting adventures trying to hide his penguin-hood from those around him. Maybe the presence of greater menaces forces humans to bite their tongue and tolerate the hated penguin in their midst long enough for him to teach them the values of tolerance and not judging a book by its cover. Or whatever.
Kreistor1 04-21-06, 05:33 PM	Calling it, "munchkin powergaming" makes about as much sense as calling it fascist. It's just randomly slapping a negative label on something you don't like. I concur. That happens far too often around these forums. And sorry for misunderstanding exactly what Edymnion was refering to. Not much context there to work with.
Edymnion 04-22-06, 12:31 AM	That's nonsense.Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it nonsense. why wouldn't a warrior take advantage of it to make himself a better fighter?Because it has a lot of drawbacks that makes non-combat situations a real pain in the butt to put up with? Its like asking "Why wouldn't a fighter graft foot long spikes all over his body to make himself a better fighter?" It's just randomly slapping a negative label on something you don't like.Munchkin, someone that bends and/or exploits the rules to make themselves more powerful, without worrying about annoying little things like flavor or character concept. Powergamer, someone that focuses on making the most powerful mechanical build that they can. I would call being Permanently Enlarged to become a stronger melee fighter to be powergaming (which is not a bad thing, powergaming and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive), while whining when the DM tries to enforce the downsides to their condition would be munchkiny, in my book. If you don't think a race is appropriate for your campaign, then by all means ban it. This passive aggressive, "You can play that race, but I'm going to make sure you have a miserable time and don't enjoy gaming until you make a different character," business seems intentionally nasty.I do dissallow most monsterous races from my games. However, if the player has a good background and shows me that they are capable of playing the character well, I'll let them do it. They still have to realize though that I'm not going to have the entire world just ignore their penalties just because they are PCs though. If the character has a penalty that never comes up in game, then it is not a penalty and might as well not even be there. So players have to be "good enough" before they're allowed to play D&D in a certain way? Yeesh.If they are capable of playing a good character, then they are capable of playing a good character of any race. If they think its impossible to have an interesting character without a ton of templates and PrC, then I would say that they are not a good player. Not yet anyway. So yes, in my game, if you haven't proven to me that you can play a fun character with a normal race, then you haven't proven to me that you can handle a monster race. Of course not, but if a DM has approved such a character in the first place, he has an obligation to find a way to make playing a half-illithid half-drow giant penguin into a satisfying gaming experience while staying within the rules of the world.It is also the Player's obligation to do their part to make the game enjoyable, its not all on the DM's shoulders. Part of that means you don't make characters you know will be disruptive to the game. My players all know my stance, and know that I will not pull punches just because the character is a PC. If the first reaction a random encounter with that race would be to attack it, then the first reaction the PC will get is to be attacked. If they're playing something that has a huge appetite, then they're going to have to accept that their character needs more food than everybody else's, and that drawback should see gametime. Like you said, you have to stay within the rules of the world. Just because the character is a PC is not reason to step outside of the rules for the way the world treats that race. To use a Faerun example, you don't try to play an Orc PC in a game set in the Silver Marches, and then get upset when the town guard shoots your orc on site. You knew you were going to be in the Silver Marches, you know that people there have a deep racial hatred of orcs, and you know that they shoot orcs on sight. The fact that this orc was a PC does not change that. Same with the rest of it. If you're not willing to take the bad with the good, then you're not ready to play a monster race.
treehouse916 04-22-06, 12:44 AM	But getting permanently Enlarged just to be a better combat machine? Thats not roleplaying, thats just munckin powergaming. Let me substitute a couple of words: "But taking max ranks in Tumble just to be a better combat machine? That's not roleplaying, that's just munchkin powergaming." "But taking Adamantine Body just to be a better combat machine? That's not roleplaying, that's just munchkin powergaming." "But making your wizard's highest ability score Intelligence just to be a better combat machine? That's not roleplaying, that's just munchkin powergaming." Just out of curiosity, what is the point for you when a player goes from 'optimizing their character' to 'ruining the game'? Where do you draw the line, and why?
stembolt 04-22-06, 02:07 AM	Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it nonsense. You’re right. It being nonsense is why it is nonsense. Because it has a lot of drawbacks that makes non-combat situations a real pain in the butt to put up with? Its like asking "Why wouldn't a fighter graft foot long spikes all over his body to make himself a better fighter?" Explain why he wouldn’t? A book I read ages ago has a character who looses a hand. He is a tough mercenary type in a group of adventurers. He is given a hook by a doctor. So he takes the arm cup and attaches a big knife to it. One of the other people asks him “wouldn’t the hook be more useful?” He explains “I’m a mercenary. I need what ever help I can get to kill the other guy. A hook might help me pick up a cup or tie my laces but I’m a warrior and that’s what I need to do best.” A fighter will do whatever will help him be a better fighter. Munchkin, someone that bends and/or exploits the rules to make themselves more powerful, without worrying about annoying little things like flavor or character concept. Powergamer, someone that focuses on making the most powerful mechanical build that they can. Close but wrong. Like Tyler Durden said, “sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken.” The following are the correct definitions: Munchkin – Another term typically equated with min/maxing by outsiders. Munchkin usually means a cheater and is used almost exclusively as a derogatory term. Munchkin is roughly equivalent to a swear or a term to belittle someone. Powergamer – A character or player who attempts to make the most powerful character possible. To outsiders they are essentially the same as min/maxers. To min/maxers there are subtle differences. Another point of interest is that outsiders will often use the term “powergamer” in a derogatory fashion while in actuality the word is non-pejorative.
Edymnion 04-22-06, 06:34 PM	Let me substitute a couple of words: "But taking max ranks in Tumble just to be a better combat machine? That's not roleplaying, that's just munchkin powergaming." "But taking Adamantine Body just to be a better combat machine? That's not roleplaying, that's just munchkin powergaming." "But making your wizard's highest ability score Intelligence just to be a better combat machine? That's not roleplaying, that's just munchkin powergaming."None of which really have negative sides. A better change of words would be "But hacking off his own arms and legs just so he can become a half-golem to be a better combat machine?" or "But setting himself on permanent magic fire so that everything he touches takes fire damage?" Just out of curiosity, what is the point for you when a player goes from 'optimizing their character' to 'ruining the game'? Where do you draw the line, and why?At the point they no longer care about the fun of the other players or the well-being of the game as a whole. When they are acting selfishly and just want to make their own character as powerful as they can, reguardless of what else is going on. Although, I usually find that good players will agree not to do something that could screw up the game when you take them aside and talk to them about it.
stembolt 04-22-06, 08:24 PM	None of which really have negative sides. Adamantium body certainly does. A better change of words would be "But hacking off his own arms and legs just so he can become a half-golem to be a better combat machine?" or "But setting himself on permanent magic fire so that everything he touches takes fire damage?" “choice” of words. The pejorative statement of “hacking arms and legs” aside, you are essentially correct. It is like becoming a half golem (the setting on fire thing has no real has no analog so it is just nonsense). And if becoming a half golem were worth it, sign me up. As for permanent enlarge, that is so worth it. At the point they no longer care about the fun of the other players or the well-being of the game as a whole. When they are acting selfishly and just want to make their own character as powerful as they can, reguardless of what else is going on. Really? In our last game, the group pooled all their money to have the group's fighter permenantly enlarged. You know I read this guy as hating his group as well.
yossarius 04-22-06, 10:15 PM	The way I see it, if I wanted to screw this player, I'd let the party spend it's money on this spell, then have an NPC spellcaster dispel it in the very next session. I'm not suggesting that. All i'm saying is that being a human being that is significantly taller than everyone around him would be very advantageous in a fight, but a major inconvinience in most other aspects of life. I was just looking for ideas as to just what the disadvantages would be. I am not advocating punishing my players for wanting to make their characters more powerful. If I was so much against it, I'd simply not allow it in my game. All I'm saying this that there should be a certain role-playing penalty to be paid for being freakishly tall.
stembolt 04-23-06, 02:54 AM	All i'm saying is that being a human being that is significantly taller than everyone around him would be very advantageous in a fight, but a major inconvinience in most other aspects of life. Firstly being enlarged is almost as much a detriment in combat as it is an advantage. As for being otherwise inconvenient, yes it is. The problem here is your attitude. The PCs have done something completely reasonable and you are freaking out about it and are looking to punish them. Just don’t worry about it.
Lurkalot 04-23-06, 06:33 AM	Let me substitute a couple of words: "But taking max ranks in Tumble just to be a better combat machine? That's not roleplaying, that's just munchkin powergaming." Your substitutions are not equivalent. What Edy has said is that he objects to players that harm the believability of the game by being selective about the consequences of their actions. Enlarge Person has a major impact on your day to day life. To ignore the negative consequences makes your game less believable and real, not to mention less balanced too. Getting good at tumbling doesn't have these disadvantages. Same with your other examples. I'm surprised that no-one has asked what level these PCs are. If they are low-level then there will be a lot of problems due to the enlarged size - the food, the beds, the suspicion. But if the players are mid- to high- then the problems are lessened - the PC will have the money to buy custom armour, pay for special accomodation, the reputation as the giant warrior. But then the advantages will seem less as well. So I say give him both the positives and negatives of his action. Don't punish him unduly - give him the opportunity to rescue cats and bang his head on doorways. And especially the love-sick ogress. Given time... He'll grow out of it! :rofl:
stembolt 04-23-06, 02:16 PM	I'm surprised that no-one has asked what level these PCs are. You are right. We assumed that if they needed to pool their money to do this they are low level. The DM could be giving them too little treasure. And there is still no reason an ogress would fall in love with him. Unless orc ladies already do so.
Evil Wizard 04-24-06, 12:41 AM	On top of all that, the fighter could achieve the same effect in a vastly superior manner. As noted earlier, he could just get a Ring of Enlarge Person. 4000 gp, lets him enlarge himself upon command, and he never has to worry about his investment being dispelled the first time someone wings a Dispel Magic his way. Plus, using an on/off ring circumvents all those day-to-day inconveniences. Besides being more munchkinny than anything else, Permanency + Enlarge Person is a really inferior way to go about it. The DM is trying to save his players from their own foolishness.
dang 04-24-06, 02:32 AM	If they want to be a freak, then they're going to get treated like a freak. i know what you mean... but what if he doesn't care? furthermore, being a freak of nature has advantages other than strength, such as celebrity, notoriety, etc. like paris hilton. someone also brought up "carnal relations..." perhaps this isn't a problem after all. it ain't all in "how you use it," as some maintain, if you catch my meaning. ;) finally, we shouldn't compare to andre the giant -- he was affected by a hormone disorder, not a spell. wait -- question: could there be health repercussions? i mean, giraffes have special venous structures that keep them from passing out. does the simple "it's magic" take care of that, even for a spell designed to be short-term?
yossarius 04-24-06, 09:47 AM	I briefly considered the possibility of health repercussions, but decided against it. As much as enforcing health problems might make realistic sense, I think that would be against the entended spirit of the spell, and would be unfairly targeting the PC. I did try to steer the party towards a ring of enlarge person, but they just wouldn't have it. I didn't come right out and say that some resourceful NPC would eventually dispel it, but then, I really don't think I should have needed to. These aren't inexperienced players we're talking about, and the characters are all 8th level. I suppose I tend to have my NPCs use dispel magic sparingly, so they may be hedging their bet here. Also, I recognize that as 8th level characters, permenantly enlarging a party member doesn't really threaten game balance, which is why I didn't really oppose their plans in the first place.
Amik_Wulfenkind 04-29-06, 04:01 PM	i can think of LOADS of good reasons to get enlarged. For example, mounts; how big is a dire bear? is the guy anygood at handle animal? Espionage. the guy could be mistaken for a giant. this could be a great advantage if they have a problem with giants. Got a problem with armour? nick a tin roof!!! Weapons? pull up a small tree!! fair enough, people around ai'nt gonna be happy, but the guy is 9' tall, so who is gonna muck with him!?! Chances are, it also means the gobliboids are gonna leave him alone, cause he's big enough to STEP on kobolds! He could play football with the things! Back, to weapons, if he needs something ranged, all he has to do is go to the nearest siege an nick one of the light bastilae and he's got a cross bow!