Handling XP in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Handling XP in Eberron? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jonathan Drain
08-20-05, 08:08 PM Where standard D&D often involves a large amount of monster whomping, dungeon delving, trap dodging and body looting, I've read that Eberron is meant for a different style of play, one in which the aim is more to solve mysteries, engage in intrigue and retrieve artifacts. You can't march off and kill goblins to loot their ill-gotten gold, because goblins are people too, and that makes it a crime. You can't hunt down a dragon, because they're powerful and mysterious entities that a most people probably don't even believe exist. You can't march across other planes, or even visit most other continents without getting killed.

To get to the point, the standard D&D rules give XP only for two things - defeating monsters and humanoid opponents (causing them to surrender or flee, or killing them) and bypassing traps (disarming them, setting them off but avoiding injury, or setting them off and getting injured but surviving anyway).

This is fine when the game is all about dungeon-delving and monster-whomping, but does this reward method still work in Eberron? Eberron DMs: What methods of handing out XP do you employ?
Tek
08-20-05, 08:35 PM I give out XP when people defeat an encounter. This can be anything from combat, to solving a mystery, to getting aboard the lightning rail before it leaves the station. I don't use the DMG rules for XP hard and fast - I've DMed enough to know how much XP I give out for certain situations. I'm not a stingy DM, when it comes to XP, either. Most people suggest 50-100 xp for RPing rewards. I usually toss out something like 300-500 xp or even more sometimes when I feel the RP is good.
Just another user
08-20-05, 08:41 PM I personally like the "give enough XPs to advance to the next level after X adventures" method, where X is choose by the GM.

Or even better, "advance to next level when the GM feels is right" method. :)
Beleriphon
08-20-05, 08:46 PM I try to go with 14 significant encounters per level, which is more or less what the DMG sugggests. It means that a high levels you can have a dozen exciting encounters, each one giving less that the total xp required for the "per encounter" basis. Thus I can increase that to 20 encounters by making some of the situations only half has difficult, or I could reduce it to 7 by making all of them twice as hard.
Arcane Guyver
08-20-05, 08:52 PM Half XP & liberal 'story rewards'.
MysticTheurge
08-20-05, 09:51 PM The rules actually give guidelines for rewarding XP based on overcoming challenges. However, the rules only give challenge ratings for overcoming traps and defeating opponents. It should be fairly easy however to assign a CR to most other types of challenges you throw at your party. Is it easy for them to do? CR below their level. Is it hard enough they might not be able to pull it off? CR abover their level. You get the idea.
stone_dog
08-20-05, 10:09 PM I have started leveling up every 16 hours of solid play. Doing the XP tally was always my least favourite part of playing the game anyway, this way everybody is satisfied with advancement and I can spend energy on what is important to the group. Cool stuff happening to their characters.

If it is a particularly kickass session I usually give a couple bonus hours.
Cloud Divider
08-20-05, 11:41 PM I've largely given up on using the standard XP award tables. For instance, in the last 6 sessions (~30h of gameplay), we've had a whopping 2 main combat encounters. The remainder has been extremely heavy roleplaying and investigative work, both of which are pretty tricky to value, XP-wise.

I may reference the tables to get a rough idea, but that's really about it.

For instance, while doing some research at Morgrave U, my party ran across Ambassador Jorasesh (& entourage) walking down a hallway, a sort of social "random encounter" of sorts. There wasn't a goal involved - it was mostly a "Introduce a Major Background NPC" scene. How much XP is that worth? Jorasesh is something like a 8th level character (or something - I can't be bothered to go look it up right now). Should just walking up and saying "Hi" give you as much experience as if you whacked him over the head? How much should it be worth, then?

What I've been doing instead, is just giving out a big lump sum XP award at the end of every main story arc. In this case of the arc we just finished (that 6-session one), the PC's started at 3rd, and I gave them enough XP to hit 4th. The 5 session arc prior, got them from 2nd to 3rd.

The actual value is largely arbitrary - based more on how I fast I want them to progress (though I should make it clear - I also discussed desired "rate of growth" with my players as well). I may slow things down a bit once we hit 5th-6th (because that's my favorite zone).
Steelpunk
08-21-05, 12:41 AM The method we use is fairly simplistic:

Characters gain XP for overcoming challenges, whether they be combat or otherwise. If something is trivial or doesn't involve a challenge (such as a 12th level PC killing a CR 1/3 creature, or saying "hi" to a high level story NPC), they get no XP.

If the challenge is potentially violent but the PCs defeat it through non-violent or social means, they get XP as though they had defeated the encoutner violently - however I deduct 10-20% if they made some poor flubs along the way.

For challenges that are strictly social without threat of violence, XP is awarded as an EL half of what the PCs would have dealt with had the threat of violence been present.

For investigations, we use ad hoc XP - usually 100-300 per critical piece of information uncovered, if the PCs can understand the significance and apply it.
Marshall Stone
08-21-05, 01:41 AM In the Unearthed Arcana thier are a few different ways of handling Experience Point Awards.

Because Eberron is meant for low to mid level class levels, I go with the system that awards 300xp/level per sesssion divided equally amongst the players. So if I have 4 players level 2, 2, 3, and 4, the exp. I hand out during that session would be ({[2*300]+[2*300]+[3*300]+[4*300]}/4) 825 exp.

That's another thing I do. No one in the group earns experience solely for themselves. If you earn exp., whatever you earn your going to divide amongst your fellow players; except for a very few exceptions.
I always hated how I might need to miss a game, and loose out on any exp. even though my character was "there" and often times played by the DM.
In my games, if a player can't make it for some reason then he can't generate exp. for himself AND the rest of the party; the ExP. is still divided by 4, so to speak, even if only 3 people generated ExP. But he still gets his portion of the exp. the party was able to generate.
I have found that this helped foster team work in a group, and no one wants to be absent if they can at all help it.

Now, I used to also award bonus exp. as a percentage of the overall exp. handed out for anything I thought deserved it. You role-played your character particularly well during that treaty negotiation, +10% exp. That was a great joke you told that had the hole table laughing for mintues, +20% exp. You came up with an ingenious way out of the trap I set for you that I didn't even consider, +15% exp.

In Eberron, however, I can give out Action Points, or I'll extend the "range" with which they can use thier action points (see Unearted Arcana). Again, cause I feel that Eberron is meant for Low-Mid powered adventuring, I don't want the PC's to go up to fast.

In a way I use Exp. as a kind of place holder or bookmark to see how far along the characters are.
JesseDennehy
08-21-05, 10:36 AM In my campaign I don't limit myself to only giving out xp for overcoming traps and encounters. I give out xp for the player behaviors I want to encourage in the players.

For example I give out xp for roleplaying. The players in my campaigns have earned xp for in character discussions between themselves. Like the ten minute discussion between the worshiper of the silver flame and the worshipper of the sovereign host about whether the warforged character had a soul.

During character creation I gave the players xp based on the quality of their background story. During the course of the game I have also given out rewards when they have used or expanded this background. Like the player who is constantly looking for non-magical books while the others are looking for magic items because his character is interested in knowledge more than material possessions.

I also give out xp for that things the players do that advance the story line of my plot driven adventures. For example when a character notices a clue about how something in the current adventure may relate to the overall campaign arch.

Players also receive xp for embracing the Eberron style by doing something I feel is especially cinematic. For example, when the kobold was chasing a monk through Trolanport and jumped 20 feet over one of the canals (i.e. flooded streets).

I also give out xp to those players who make the game fun. When someone says a memorable line they earn xp.

Now these individual awards may be less then what the party gets for overcoming traps or defeating opponents, but it does act as a carrot for encouraging players.

I have noticed that those dm's who only give xp for combat and traps tend to gripe the most about players not doing enough of the other stuff. Some may argue that players should not be rewarded for these little things that are part of the game (roleplaying, developing a background, etc.) But I believe incentives can serve as positive reinforcement.
Gurv
08-21-05, 10:58 AM I don't give out XP based directly on CR anymore. It tends to result in leveling too fast, and rewards combat encounters too heavily. I use several methods to control XP gain.

Most of the time, I just figure out how much XP is needed to get from the current level to the next, divide that by 13.3, and use the result as a base for rewards. Anything that seems to reasonably challenge them is worth that amount and encounters that seem to challenge them more or less receive a larger or smaller percentage of that amount.

I also give story awards, either to the entire group for finishing some important goal or to individuals for accomplishing some personal character goal. This is usually a percentage of the XP gained over the entire course of accomplishing that goal. If they do a lot of horrendously pointless things, waste time, or otherwise fail to accomplish anything during a game, the XP is likewise diminished.

Since we run long games (6-8 hours per session) and none of us want the characters gaining a level every single game, I often set a maximum for how much XP can be gained in a single session. Leveling every other session seems reasonable for us, so that is often what happens.
Jonathan Drain
08-21-05, 11:55 AM Thank you for your continuing suggestions. Since combat is still a big part of Eberron and takes a lot of limited resources (hitpoints, spells per day), I'm thinking that the players should still be rewarded for it to some extent - perhaps half XP for combat with a large story award, as described in the DMG. It makes combat for combat's sake less rewarding, and makes it that achieving the goal set is at least as rewarding as all the combats in the encounter.

Please continue with your suggestions, and let me add another question to this mix. Assuming thus that I give any XP for combat, what do I do in situations where combat is not necessary? For example, suppose the players are level 7 and encounter a group of three ogres (an easy challenge) out in the wilderness. The ogres, who are performing some benign ritual to the Dragon Below, ignore the PCs with whom they have no business. Do the PCs get XP for killing them? For avoiding them? If they get XP for killing them and none for letting them live, doesn't this still encourage an unrealistic attitude of "we will be rewarded for killing innocents"?
polt
08-21-05, 12:26 PM Of course they should get XP from killing the ogres. They are in a ritual to the Dragon Below, that's pretty evil.

Why would they get Xp for avoiding them? That's like giving XP because they are walking :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jonathan Drain 08-20-05, 08:08 PM	Where standard D&D often involves a large amount of monster whomping, dungeon delving, trap dodging and body looting, I've read that Eberron is meant for a different style of play, one in which the aim is more to solve mysteries, engage in intrigue and retrieve artifacts. You can't march off and kill goblins to loot their ill-gotten gold, because goblins are people too, and that makes it a crime. You can't hunt down a dragon, because they're powerful and mysterious entities that a most people probably don't even believe exist. You can't march across other planes, or even visit most other continents without getting killed. To get to the point, the standard D&D rules give XP only for two things - defeating monsters and humanoid opponents (causing them to surrender or flee, or killing them) and bypassing traps (disarming them, setting them off but avoiding injury, or setting them off and getting injured but surviving anyway). This is fine when the game is all about dungeon-delving and monster-whomping, but does this reward method still work in Eberron? Eberron DMs: What methods of handing out XP do you employ?
Tek 08-20-05, 08:35 PM	I give out XP when people defeat an encounter. This can be anything from combat, to solving a mystery, to getting aboard the lightning rail before it leaves the station. I don't use the DMG rules for XP hard and fast - I've DMed enough to know how much XP I give out for certain situations. I'm not a stingy DM, when it comes to XP, either. Most people suggest 50-100 xp for RPing rewards. I usually toss out something like 300-500 xp or even more sometimes when I feel the RP is good.
Just another user 08-20-05, 08:41 PM	I personally like the "give enough XPs to advance to the next level after X adventures" method, where X is choose by the GM. Or even better, "advance to next level when the GM feels is right" method. :)
Beleriphon 08-20-05, 08:46 PM	I try to go with 14 significant encounters per level, which is more or less what the DMG sugggests. It means that a high levels you can have a dozen exciting encounters, each one giving less that the total xp required for the "per encounter" basis. Thus I can increase that to 20 encounters by making some of the situations only half has difficult, or I could reduce it to 7 by making all of them twice as hard.
Arcane Guyver 08-20-05, 08:52 PM	Half XP & liberal 'story rewards'.
MysticTheurge 08-20-05, 09:51 PM	The rules actually give guidelines for rewarding XP based on overcoming challenges. However, the rules only give challenge ratings for overcoming traps and defeating opponents. It should be fairly easy however to assign a CR to most other types of challenges you throw at your party. Is it easy for them to do? CR below their level. Is it hard enough they might not be able to pull it off? CR abover their level. You get the idea.
stone_dog 08-20-05, 10:09 PM	I have started leveling up every 16 hours of solid play. Doing the XP tally was always my least favourite part of playing the game anyway, this way everybody is satisfied with advancement and I can spend energy on what is important to the group. Cool stuff happening to their characters. If it is a particularly kickass session I usually give a couple bonus hours.
Cloud Divider 08-20-05, 11:41 PM	I've largely given up on using the standard XP award tables. For instance, in the last 6 sessions (~30h of gameplay), we've had a whopping 2 main combat encounters. The remainder has been extremely heavy roleplaying and investigative work, both of which are pretty tricky to value, XP-wise. I may reference the tables to get a rough idea, but that's really about it. For instance, while doing some research at Morgrave U, my party ran across Ambassador Jorasesh (& entourage) walking down a hallway, a sort of social "random encounter" of sorts. There wasn't a goal involved - it was mostly a "Introduce a Major Background NPC" scene. How much XP is that worth? Jorasesh is something like a 8th level character (or something - I can't be bothered to go look it up right now). Should just walking up and saying "Hi" give you as much experience as if you whacked him over the head? How much should it be worth, then? What I've been doing instead, is just giving out a big lump sum XP award at the end of every main story arc. In this case of the arc we just finished (that 6-session one), the PC's started at 3rd, and I gave them enough XP to hit 4th. The 5 session arc prior, got them from 2nd to 3rd. The actual value is largely arbitrary - based more on how I fast I want them to progress (though I should make it clear - I also discussed desired "rate of growth" with my players as well). I may slow things down a bit once we hit 5th-6th (because that's my favorite zone).
Steelpunk 08-21-05, 12:41 AM	The method we use is fairly simplistic: Characters gain XP for overcoming challenges, whether they be combat or otherwise. If something is trivial or doesn't involve a challenge (such as a 12th level PC killing a CR 1/3 creature, or saying "hi" to a high level story NPC), they get no XP. If the challenge is potentially violent but the PCs defeat it through non-violent or social means, they get XP as though they had defeated the encoutner violently - however I deduct 10-20% if they made some poor flubs along the way. For challenges that are strictly social without threat of violence, XP is awarded as an EL half of what the PCs would have dealt with had the threat of violence been present. For investigations, we use ad hoc XP - usually 100-300 per critical piece of information uncovered, if the PCs can understand the significance and apply it.
Marshall Stone 08-21-05, 01:41 AM	In the Unearthed Arcana thier are a few different ways of handling Experience Point Awards. Because Eberron is meant for low to mid level class levels, I go with the system that awards 300xp/level per sesssion divided equally amongst the players. So if I have 4 players level 2, 2, 3, and 4, the exp. I hand out during that session would be ({[2300]+[2300]+[3300]+[4300]}/4) 825 exp. That's another thing I do. No one in the group earns experience solely for themselves. If you earn exp., whatever you earn your going to divide amongst your fellow players; except for a very few exceptions. I always hated how I might need to miss a game, and loose out on any exp. even though my character was "there" and often times played by the DM. In my games, if a player can't make it for some reason then he can't generate exp. for himself AND the rest of the party; the ExP. is still divided by 4, so to speak, even if only 3 people generated ExP. But he still gets his portion of the exp. the party was able to generate. I have found that this helped foster team work in a group, and no one wants to be absent if they can at all help it. Now, I used to also award bonus exp. as a percentage of the overall exp. handed out for anything I thought deserved it. You role-played your character particularly well during that treaty negotiation, +10% exp. That was a great joke you told that had the hole table laughing for mintues, +20% exp. You came up with an ingenious way out of the trap I set for you that I didn't even consider, +15% exp. In Eberron, however, I can give out Action Points, or I'll extend the "range" with which they can use thier action points (see Unearted Arcana). Again, cause I feel that Eberron is meant for Low-Mid powered adventuring, I don't want the PC's to go up to fast. In a way I use Exp. as a kind of place holder or bookmark to see how far along the characters are.
JesseDennehy 08-21-05, 10:36 AM	In my campaign I don't limit myself to only giving out xp for overcoming traps and encounters. I give out xp for the player behaviors I want to encourage in the players. For example I give out xp for roleplaying. The players in my campaigns have earned xp for in character discussions between themselves. Like the ten minute discussion between the worshiper of the silver flame and the worshipper of the sovereign host about whether the warforged character had a soul. During character creation I gave the players xp based on the quality of their background story. During the course of the game I have also given out rewards when they have used or expanded this background. Like the player who is constantly looking for non-magical books while the others are looking for magic items because his character is interested in knowledge more than material possessions. I also give out xp for that things the players do that advance the story line of my plot driven adventures. For example when a character notices a clue about how something in the current adventure may relate to the overall campaign arch. Players also receive xp for embracing the Eberron style by doing something I feel is especially cinematic. For example, when the kobold was chasing a monk through Trolanport and jumped 20 feet over one of the canals (i.e. flooded streets). I also give out xp to those players who make the game fun. When someone says a memorable line they earn xp. Now these individual awards may be less then what the party gets for overcoming traps or defeating opponents, but it does act as a carrot for encouraging players. I have noticed that those dm's who only give xp for combat and traps tend to gripe the most about players not doing enough of the other stuff. Some may argue that players should not be rewarded for these little things that are part of the game (roleplaying, developing a background, etc.) But I believe incentives can serve as positive reinforcement.
Gurv 08-21-05, 10:58 AM	I don't give out XP based directly on CR anymore. It tends to result in leveling too fast, and rewards combat encounters too heavily. I use several methods to control XP gain. Most of the time, I just figure out how much XP is needed to get from the current level to the next, divide that by 13.3, and use the result as a base for rewards. Anything that seems to reasonably challenge them is worth that amount and encounters that seem to challenge them more or less receive a larger or smaller percentage of that amount. I also give story awards, either to the entire group for finishing some important goal or to individuals for accomplishing some personal character goal. This is usually a percentage of the XP gained over the entire course of accomplishing that goal. If they do a lot of horrendously pointless things, waste time, or otherwise fail to accomplish anything during a game, the XP is likewise diminished. Since we run long games (6-8 hours per session) and none of us want the characters gaining a level every single game, I often set a maximum for how much XP can be gained in a single session. Leveling every other session seems reasonable for us, so that is often what happens.
Jonathan Drain 08-21-05, 11:55 AM	Thank you for your continuing suggestions. Since combat is still a big part of Eberron and takes a lot of limited resources (hitpoints, spells per day), I'm thinking that the players should still be rewarded for it to some extent - perhaps half XP for combat with a large story award, as described in the DMG. It makes combat for combat's sake less rewarding, and makes it that achieving the goal set is at least as rewarding as all the combats in the encounter. Please continue with your suggestions, and let me add another question to this mix. Assuming thus that I give any XP for combat, what do I do in situations where combat is not necessary? For example, suppose the players are level 7 and encounter a group of three ogres (an easy challenge) out in the wilderness. The ogres, who are performing some benign ritual to the Dragon Below, ignore the PCs with whom they have no business. Do the PCs get XP for killing them? For avoiding them? If they get XP for killing them and none for letting them live, doesn't this still encourage an unrealistic attitude of "we will be rewarded for killing innocents"?
polt 08-21-05, 12:26 PM	Of course they should get XP from killing the ogres. They are in a ritual to the Dragon Below, that's pretty evil. Why would they get Xp for avoiding them? That's like giving XP because they are walking :P