Has anyone made an effective iron defender? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Has anyone made an effective iron defender? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Double M
08-11-05, 03:07 PM ...Or are they just a liability--one fireball away from 2d10 to the maker? My 8th level artificer (blaster variant) is not going to be taking craft construct until much later and, as such, I want some form of body guard since my melee combat skills are quite poor. If I craft a 6HD iron defender, is there a feasible build that will keep him from just getting easily waxed. I like the idea of my own little mecha-guard, but I don't want to sink tons of gold into him only to watch him die, I'm already very attached to Homi, my dedicated wright and I think homunculi add a great deal of flavor to the class.

I don't want to waste gold willy nilly, but cash is not a huge concern, because I have the 25% gp reduction feat and I clear 20% profit from all the items I make for my fellow adventurers--which is a substantial amount. XP (or rather craft reserve) is not a problem at all as I recently ate nearly 10K worth of magical traps/locations to get boucoup craft reserve.

I'm sure that someone has already posted similar questions, but search is down.

Any ideas on whether an Iron D can be useful and how to best construct one would be appreciated. Thanks.
Brastan
08-11-05, 03:54 PM First thing to do is place some magic items on him. This is generally a good idea with any sizable creature you wish to protect. The point of having a personal guard is that they get between you and combat. Let your party fighter melee as that what he's good at. Your Iron defender should come into play only when some starts coming for you. Keep it far enough away from you to avoid area of effect spells aimed at your. Even 25 feet is good enough for it to charge in and intercept people intent on beating you senseless. A good trick to up the AC is defensive fighting. Although it only kicks the AC up two or four points it can bring you out of a good chance to be hit to a not so good chance. It hurts the melee, but your not looking for it to kill just guard. I'd say chances are good that your going to focus and kill whatever it is on your turn. It should only be there for a round or two until more experienced help can arrive or you and it can flee.

Nothing will save it if the DM wants to trash it. However like small non-combat animal companions or familiars a DM can forget about homunculi if they are not actively engaged in combat.

When it comes down to it an Iron Defender is a temporary place hold for bigger and better things. If you really want a body guard that take punishment you should get craft construct as soon as possible. On the other hand you could(after you fell you have enough craft reserve of xp built up in the Iron Def) scrap it and create a standard homunculus. Remember as a construct with an Int score they get skills and feats appropriate to their HD. For the Iron Defender I'd say get Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise(if you can swing it), and possibly dodge.
Double M
08-11-05, 05:14 PM Thanks for the info.
I have a question about your suggested feats. You say that I should consider combat expertise (if I can swing it)--I don't have my books here, but I think combat expertise requires a 13 intelligence, if so, is there something that you know that I don't about increasing the Iron Defender (whose base intelligence is 8) to an intell of 13. Even if I spent his 4th HD ability point on int, I'd still need to give him a +4 int. item, which seems a less than ideal expenditure of gold for a body guard type.

Also, can I enchant his body with an armor bonus, if I'm so inclined, or do I need to craft some type of barding and enchant that? I'm not sure if this is covered in the MM, but I don't remember seeing anything about armor and natural weapon enhancements for contstructs/homunculi.
Any other folks have ideas?
Kinger
08-11-05, 08:04 PM There was a thread not too long ago in the Magic in Eberron forum that dealt with this very topic, but I don't know where it is. You'd have to go searching. :)

As it stands I'm sure there are no ways of actually enchanting your homunculi in the same fashion on can enchant a warforged's armor. The latter is an entirely new rule with not much in the way of precedent.

However, there isn't anything stopping you making barding for your mecha-mutt and enchanting THAT.

The major downside to the Iron Defender is that it has only one attack, a bite which is quite difficult to improve, and can only make one per round. Since, however, you're just looking to extend Fido's lifespan, some things to up AC and saves are always good. I'm sure a reasonable DM would allow you to put at least 1 ring (Protection?), a pair of bracers (Armor?), a belt (Giant Strength?), and cloak (Resistance?) on your pooch. He or she may get iffy at the barding bit, but point out the Paladin can do it for his horse, so why not the Artificer's Robo-Puppy? Saves giving your pooch Bracers of Armor, too.
KP91
08-11-05, 08:22 PM Have your Iron D run behind the enemy so the fighter and the Iron D get the flank bonus.
Pinky's brain
08-11-05, 09:28 PM The only way to make homunculi usefull in battle is to polymorph them :)
anarco_rata
08-11-05, 09:30 PM The major downside to the Iron Defender is that it has only one attack, a bite which is quite difficult to improve, and can only make one per round. Since, however, you're just looking to extend Fido's lifespan, some things to up AC and saves are always good. I'm sure a reasonable DM would allow you to put at least 1 ring (Protection?), a pair of bracers (Armor?), a belt (Giant Strength?), and cloak (Resistance?) on your pooch. He or she may get iffy at the barding bit, but point out the Paladin can do it for his horse, so why not the Artificer's Robo-Puppy? Saves giving your pooch Bracers of Armor, too.
I hate it when people dress their pets
Double M
08-11-05, 10:34 PM So it sounds like the consensus is that it is not worth it to create an iron defender. Though, at 8HD, he would get a second bite attack, if I'm reading the advancement of constructs correctly (3/4 advancement = +6/+1 at 8HD), but that is certainly a big chunk of change for something that might still require several other magic items to be effective.

If there are others that have ideas, I'd love to hear them and I will go hunting in the magic forum for additional input. Thanks to all so far.
Kinger
08-11-05, 11:58 PM Though, at 8HD, he would get a second bite attack, if I'm reading the advancement of constructs correctly (3/4 advancement = +6/+1 at 8HD), but that is certainly a big chunk of change for something that might still require several other magic items to be effective.

Sorry, but that's a no. An iron defender will only ever get 1 bite attack, unless you somehow manage to get it 2 mouths. Natural attacks do not function in the same manner as weapon attacks. No matter how great your Base Attack bonus, you can only attack with a natural weapon ONCE in a full-attack. And, if you have a low BaB but 4 tentacles, you get 4 tentacle attacks (see the Grik). So, Poochy will only ever attack once per round. Spring Attack may actually be a good idea, since a full attack will never do it more good than a standard attack.
6457890
08-12-05, 11:35 AM Well i can say that you can use infusions in your iron defender (ECS 31). He has a maximun of 6 Hd (ECS 287). All monsters or creatures that do not advance in class levels can only have triple the hd of the standard version. Daelkyr and other monsters have less than triple. Othes have no limit, like a barghest. Balors have normally 20 hd but the strongest of the kin may have 60 hd.

I recomend for an artificer that high to stick to shield guardians, which are the ultimate body guards, and increase their HD if needed. The party with whom i play is gonna have a 45 hd Shield Guardian.
TheShark(tm)
08-12-05, 06:28 PM Pitch the idea of a beefy Iron Defender out the window. From what I've seen and encountered, they're mostly for both feel and style.

On the one side, you can make them menacing and terrifying..

Viscous oil drips from its mouth as a deep grinding growl resonates from its innards. Two red orbs pulse in time with some inner mechanism, dimming and flaring almost as if it had a pulse.

"Now are you going to give up the information? Or is Vulf going to have to get nasty.. What's that Vulf? Don't much like this guy?" - Intimidate

OR

FooFoo could fit in your hand he's so small. His tinny Yip Yip Yip sounds like a chihuahua barking through a phonograph. Steel bristles radiate like a corona around his neck. A telescoping antenna extends upwards from his teensy butt to 'wag' energetically. This little guy will fit in a pocket, or under a hat..

*chew chew chew chew* "Keep on chewing, little fella, i'm almost free!" - Escape Artist.

"Oh, pardon me ma'am, it seems that my little friend here has taken a liking to you.. Say, haven't we met before?" - Persuasion, Diplomacy etc..
Tek
08-12-05, 06:43 PM I'm with The Shark!

Always with the Shark. Don't ever stop podcasting!
Pinky's brain
08-12-05, 07:36 PM You can use PaO, now that probably wont be available as a spellcasting service in most Eberron games ... but Artificer made scrolls of PaO might be available (ask your DM). Such a scroll would only cost 3000 gp, and you can turn him into any 6 hd construct. Warforged Charger is good.

Only problem is that a lucky dispel could cost you 3000 gp.
Guide D'Jorasco
08-12-05, 08:14 PM You can use PaO, now that probably wont be available as a spellcasting service in most Eberron games ... but Artificer made scrolls of PaO might be available (ask your DM). Such a scroll would only cost 3000 gp, and you can turn him into any 6 hd construct. Warforged Charger is good.

Only problem is that a lucky dispel could cost you 3000 gp.

Only 3,000 gp? You throw that out there like that's something that you get normally and that its not even that much. In Eberron 3,000 gp shouldn't be something just "spent".

Dispel is awesome....Mordenkainens Disjunction is even better.
Pinky's brain
08-12-05, 08:22 PM He has 6000 gp to improve the homunculus after building him (info from a different post).

By the time he runs into disjunctions 3000 gp is chicken feed.

The advantage of the PaO route is that it works just as well with a dedicated wright ... which retains his item creation ability, giving you a multipurpose sidekick.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Double M 08-11-05, 03:07 PM	...Or are they just a liability--one fireball away from 2d10 to the maker? My 8th level artificer (blaster variant) is not going to be taking craft construct until much later and, as such, I want some form of body guard since my melee combat skills are quite poor. If I craft a 6HD iron defender, is there a feasible build that will keep him from just getting easily waxed. I like the idea of my own little mecha-guard, but I don't want to sink tons of gold into him only to watch him die, I'm already very attached to Homi, my dedicated wright and I think homunculi add a great deal of flavor to the class. I don't want to waste gold willy nilly, but cash is not a huge concern, because I have the 25% gp reduction feat and I clear 20% profit from all the items I make for my fellow adventurers--which is a substantial amount. XP (or rather craft reserve) is not a problem at all as I recently ate nearly 10K worth of magical traps/locations to get boucoup craft reserve. I'm sure that someone has already posted similar questions, but search is down. Any ideas on whether an Iron D can be useful and how to best construct one would be appreciated. Thanks.
Brastan 08-11-05, 03:54 PM	First thing to do is place some magic items on him. This is generally a good idea with any sizable creature you wish to protect. The point of having a personal guard is that they get between you and combat. Let your party fighter melee as that what he's good at. Your Iron defender should come into play only when some starts coming for you. Keep it far enough away from you to avoid area of effect spells aimed at your. Even 25 feet is good enough for it to charge in and intercept people intent on beating you senseless. A good trick to up the AC is defensive fighting. Although it only kicks the AC up two or four points it can bring you out of a good chance to be hit to a not so good chance. It hurts the melee, but your not looking for it to kill just guard. I'd say chances are good that your going to focus and kill whatever it is on your turn. It should only be there for a round or two until more experienced help can arrive or you and it can flee. Nothing will save it if the DM wants to trash it. However like small non-combat animal companions or familiars a DM can forget about homunculi if they are not actively engaged in combat. When it comes down to it an Iron Defender is a temporary place hold for bigger and better things. If you really want a body guard that take punishment you should get craft construct as soon as possible. On the other hand you could(after you fell you have enough craft reserve of xp built up in the Iron Def) scrap it and create a standard homunculus. Remember as a construct with an Int score they get skills and feats appropriate to their HD. For the Iron Defender I'd say get Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise(if you can swing it), and possibly dodge.
Double M 08-11-05, 05:14 PM	Thanks for the info. I have a question about your suggested feats. You say that I should consider combat expertise (if I can swing it)--I don't have my books here, but I think combat expertise requires a 13 intelligence, if so, is there something that you know that I don't about increasing the Iron Defender (whose base intelligence is 8) to an intell of 13. Even if I spent his 4th HD ability point on int, I'd still need to give him a +4 int. item, which seems a less than ideal expenditure of gold for a body guard type. Also, can I enchant his body with an armor bonus, if I'm so inclined, or do I need to craft some type of barding and enchant that? I'm not sure if this is covered in the MM, but I don't remember seeing anything about armor and natural weapon enhancements for contstructs/homunculi. Any other folks have ideas?
Kinger 08-11-05, 08:04 PM	There was a thread not too long ago in the Magic in Eberron forum that dealt with this very topic, but I don't know where it is. You'd have to go searching. :) As it stands I'm sure there are no ways of actually enchanting your homunculi in the same fashion on can enchant a warforged's armor. The latter is an entirely new rule with not much in the way of precedent. However, there isn't anything stopping you making barding for your mecha-mutt and enchanting THAT. The major downside to the Iron Defender is that it has only one attack, a bite which is quite difficult to improve, and can only make one per round. Since, however, you're just looking to extend Fido's lifespan, some things to up AC and saves are always good. I'm sure a reasonable DM would allow you to put at least 1 ring (Protection?), a pair of bracers (Armor?), a belt (Giant Strength?), and cloak (Resistance?) on your pooch. He or she may get iffy at the barding bit, but point out the Paladin can do it for his horse, so why not the Artificer's Robo-Puppy? Saves giving your pooch Bracers of Armor, too.
KP91 08-11-05, 08:22 PM	Have your Iron D run behind the enemy so the fighter and the Iron D get the flank bonus.
Pinky's brain 08-11-05, 09:28 PM	The only way to make homunculi usefull in battle is to polymorph them :)
anarco_rata 08-11-05, 09:30 PM	The major downside to the Iron Defender is that it has only one attack, a bite which is quite difficult to improve, and can only make one per round. Since, however, you're just looking to extend Fido's lifespan, some things to up AC and saves are always good. I'm sure a reasonable DM would allow you to put at least 1 ring (Protection?), a pair of bracers (Armor?), a belt (Giant Strength?), and cloak (Resistance?) on your pooch. He or she may get iffy at the barding bit, but point out the Paladin can do it for his horse, so why not the Artificer's Robo-Puppy? Saves giving your pooch Bracers of Armor, too. I hate it when people dress their pets
Double M 08-11-05, 10:34 PM	So it sounds like the consensus is that it is not worth it to create an iron defender. Though, at 8HD, he would get a second bite attack, if I'm reading the advancement of constructs correctly (3/4 advancement = +6/+1 at 8HD), but that is certainly a big chunk of change for something that might still require several other magic items to be effective. If there are others that have ideas, I'd love to hear them and I will go hunting in the magic forum for additional input. Thanks to all so far.
Kinger 08-11-05, 11:58 PM	Though, at 8HD, he would get a second bite attack, if I'm reading the advancement of constructs correctly (3/4 advancement = +6/+1 at 8HD), but that is certainly a big chunk of change for something that might still require several other magic items to be effective. Sorry, but that's a no. An iron defender will only ever get 1 bite attack, unless you somehow manage to get it 2 mouths. Natural attacks do not function in the same manner as weapon attacks. No matter how great your Base Attack bonus, you can only attack with a natural weapon ONCE in a full-attack. And, if you have a low BaB but 4 tentacles, you get 4 tentacle attacks (see the Grik). So, Poochy will only ever attack once per round. Spring Attack may actually be a good idea, since a full attack will never do it more good than a standard attack.
6457890 08-12-05, 11:35 AM	Well i can say that you can use infusions in your iron defender (ECS 31). He has a maximun of 6 Hd (ECS 287). All monsters or creatures that do not advance in class levels can only have triple the hd of the standard version. Daelkyr and other monsters have less than triple. Othes have no limit, like a barghest. Balors have normally 20 hd but the strongest of the kin may have 60 hd. I recomend for an artificer that high to stick to shield guardians, which are the ultimate body guards, and increase their HD if needed. The party with whom i play is gonna have a 45 hd Shield Guardian.
TheShark(tm) 08-12-05, 06:28 PM	Pitch the idea of a beefy Iron Defender out the window. From what I've seen and encountered, they're mostly for both feel and style. On the one side, you can make them menacing and terrifying.. Viscous oil drips from its mouth as a deep grinding growl resonates from its innards. Two red orbs pulse in time with some inner mechanism, dimming and flaring almost as if it had a pulse. "Now are you going to give up the information? Or is Vulf going to have to get nasty.. What's that Vulf? Don't much like this guy?" - Intimidate OR FooFoo could fit in your hand he's so small. His tinny Yip Yip Yip sounds like a chihuahua barking through a phonograph. Steel bristles radiate like a corona around his neck. A telescoping antenna extends upwards from his teensy butt to 'wag' energetically. This little guy will fit in a pocket, or under a hat.. chew chew chew chew "Keep on chewing, little fella, i'm almost free!" - Escape Artist. "Oh, pardon me ma'am, it seems that my little friend here has taken a liking to you.. Say, haven't we met before?" - Persuasion, Diplomacy etc..
Tek 08-12-05, 06:43 PM	I'm with The Shark! Always with the Shark. Don't ever stop podcasting!
Pinky's brain 08-12-05, 07:36 PM	You can use PaO, now that probably wont be available as a spellcasting service in most Eberron games ... but Artificer made scrolls of PaO might be available (ask your DM). Such a scroll would only cost 3000 gp, and you can turn him into any 6 hd construct. Warforged Charger is good. Only problem is that a lucky dispel could cost you 3000 gp.
Guide D'Jorasco 08-12-05, 08:14 PM	You can use PaO, now that probably wont be available as a spellcasting service in most Eberron games ... but Artificer made scrolls of PaO might be available (ask your DM). Such a scroll would only cost 3000 gp, and you can turn him into any 6 hd construct. Warforged Charger is good. Only problem is that a lucky dispel could cost you 3000 gp. Only 3,000 gp? You throw that out there like that's something that you get normally and that its not even that much. In Eberron 3,000 gp shouldn't be something just "spent". Dispel is awesome....Mordenkainens Disjunction is even better.
Pinky's brain 08-12-05, 08:22 PM	He has 6000 gp to improve the homunculus after building him (info from a different post). By the time he runs into disjunctions 3000 gp is chicken feed. The advantage of the PaO route is that it works just as well with a dedicated wright ... which retains his item creation ability, giving you a multipurpose sidekick.